Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Finger on them. Yeah. Why?

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Maybe this is where education could be 09:30. April 7, we're back after a short break. This is all you got? And we are guy. Dave's on the picking up h 09:30, and we have we did a walk through. Oh. But we are well, that's happened to us a few times. Okay. We we just our schedule has worked so such that I gotta grab my bill. But anyway, we had the sponsor here for the introduction of what's really going on with, or why the bill is necessary, and why you did it, what's going on in the bill. So you're on.

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: Okay. Rob Hunter, House Education Committee. And this is actually an AOE bill that came to us that we found pretty easy to support. I mean, wrote a little bit here. You want me to just read it? Sure. Not yelling about wonderful prose? Here's the sad story.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Oh, by the way, introduce yourself to the right place.

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: Yes, Rob Hunter, House of Education.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: You want two sad

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: stories? Here's the sad story. So, know, this was my first build introduction in the two years, and so my bag was getting really full of stuff and I, you know, so a couple of days after I gave my floor report, just, I'm like, I don't need this stuff anymore. And then the very next day over the weekend, I get a note from your committee person saying, Hey, could you And she was kind

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: of feeling like, Oh, yeah, threw away all my notes. So we wrote

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: this special for you guys. Okay, so since the coronavirus pandemic, chronic absenteeism in Vermont and The United States has risen dramatically. Prior to the pandemic, chronic absenteeism was at about fifteen percent nationally. Okay, also reflected in Vermont. After the pandemic, that percentage rose to close to thirty percent the years following the pandemic. In Vermont, after a peak of thirty percent, chronic absenteeism still hovers close to twenty five percent. We know that the effects to absenteeism is not just for the individual and their loss of learning and connection to the school community, but large swaths of students missing from school affects the entire school community. We know the more years a student is chronically absent in the early years, the more at risk they are for needing reading interventions by the end of second grade. In fact, research shows when assessing significant test score declines nationwide from pre to post pandemic, the US Council of Economic Advisors quantified in 2023 that absenteeism explains sixteen percent to forty five percent of the declines in test scores on the NAEP. That's actually really interesting. It's amazing. Yeah. Right? That's a really interest could be one wondering. We've been trying to explore a little bit why some of this is happening,

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: and that's a piece, that's an articulation we hadn't heard.

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: Yeah. So obvious impacts of chronic absenteeism is on high school graduation. By the end of high school, regular attendance is a better predictor of graduation than test scores. A student who's chronically absent any year between grades eight and twelve is more than seven times more likely to drop out than their parent was not chronically absent. H930 represents, here it is, H930 represents a shift in mindset. Where we all may understand the need for truant officers in the past, research has shown that punitive measures like fines and court appearances are not effective in getting children back to school, especially when you consider the numbers so dramatically, and I'll talk more about that in a minute. A situation this critical has forced examination of the problem and how best to solve it. There's a myriad of reasons for the dramatic increase in absenteeism, and those reasons vary from in school situations like bullying to out of school reasons, including chronic health conditions, to lack of reliable transportation. And those health issues might not even be the kid, it might be a parent, you know, that they're they're taken care of or taken care of simply. And and it's not it's not as simple as just one thing. It's a lot of different things.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: But all of those things were there, not to interrupt, but all of those things were there before the pandemic. Something

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: changed. I mean, and I can even tell you, you know, my last couple of years teaching were, you know, through the pandemic and then up to 2023. And even, you know, it was obvious that certain kids were just missing a lot of days and things back in Manchester actually, you know, pretty good. We do a real good job with kids. And but, you know, it's across the state, it's it's a big deal. It's a real big deal.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: Well, even employment.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Oh, and and,

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: you know, I I don't know. I mean, great. I've talked to to business owners who just have trouble getting people coming in. So I'm not sure Yep. What yeah. So anyway, so the AOB has the AOE has put forth a bill that is ambitious in its paradigm shift paradigm shift to better get at the root of students' chronic absenteeism rather than the old school way of dealing with it. This bill outlines state level strategies which decenter compliance as the primary outcome and more deeply considers the root causes behind absenteeism and the impact of absenteeism on communities rather than individuals. Also important in this bill is the establishment of definitions that can vary from school to school, namely what is an excusable absence versus a non excusable absence. In this way, language and clear procedures will help all Vermont school systems be consistent in how they deal with students and parents. The bill calls for a collaborative approach developing a model policy that includes all the major stakeholders in the state, right? All the fees, the independent schools, everybody else. The bill does not completely remove truant officers or the possibility of prosecution for those parents, guardians who refuse to comply with state law. Rather, that process is more well defined and consistent and it should be noted, serves more as a last resort rather than this is happening to you with it. So our committee voted this out 11 nothing, passed the floor pretty easily. You know, it's a it it it it is an issue that that needs, frankly, some serious attention. And I think that this bill will give it that attention.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So what does it actually do or to ask what?

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: Okay. So, really, as I said, it represents a paradigm shift and the focus is going to be more on interventions with individuals, right? Phone calls, people showing up, you know, hey, how come you weren't in school? You know, that sort of thing, like reaching out rather than, you know, immediately sending the truant officer, that sort of thing. But what this law will do is get everybody in the state in every school on the same page, same definitions. Truancy? What is chronic absenteeism? Right? How many days would be considered?

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: So at this current time, we have 119 different districts and we have

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Might be 100. 19 different

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: ways Yeah, no. And actually there was a kind of a cool moment here when we were talking about, you know, they wanted to put in sort of a list of things that were excusable and not excusable. And then I think we debated about the superintendent shall or may, right? That it was a shall or may situation determine whether these things were excusable. And I realized it needs to be a may because let's say you get this kid who's going on their fiftieth college visit, right? And you know, it could happen, I mean, maybe not 50, but maybe 25 and No, no, no. You know, you've already been out the door 20 times. I think that's, you know, this one is gonna be non excused. Yeah. Right? So that sort of thing. Yeah. And I think that the definition of being chronic absent is like missed days or ten percent or something. But what I like most about this is the kinder, gentler approach, like let's get all hands on deck here and let's realize that we're dealing with serious problems in our state.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So the real place of also is the role is the role of the rights, the model policy, and then the schools each have Exactly.

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: Right. So, and as I said, all the stakeholders will come together, create a model policy, and then by a certain such and such date, schools will be required to adapt to this policy

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: or come up with their own. Yeah.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: I'm not I was saying to representative Hunter that I'm nodding along and sort of I had this conversation, I would say in the middle of the pandemic, I don't know that we were out of the woods, but we were really looking at absenteeism. And it was our state's attorney's office in Chittenden County that approached us about decriminalizing family truancy. So, you know, I don't know if we ever ended up putting anything in law, honestly, but it's, you know, the upshot for this part of the conversation is that they, the courts are also involved in what's considered truancy. And at least in Chittenden County, they had a working group do a study with all their districts of what their policies are so that they could streamline it by county because ultimately, if there's a big problem, it goes to their county court. And then they wanted to make sure they weren't they didn't have huge disparate experiences with how many kids or families, parents essentially were getting called in for truancy hearings in court.

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: Yeah. And they could and they could be fined, you know, up to a thousand dollars. And, you know, and I mean, you know, one of these out of school reasons is, you know, that the people who are kind of not housed, you know, and it's it's kind of mind boggling to think that these people are gonna get hold in the court possibly fine. So so I think what this law is attempting to do or or will do is is make the process much more holistic, much more humanistic, and and get kids back in school because that that is ultimately the most important thing, right? Know, school is a lot of things. You know, to even push a little bit further, you know, think about the different supports that kids get in schools, right? And maybe it's a counselor, maybe it's a nurse, maybe it's a trusted adult, you know what I mean? There's a lot besides the rate, right? And it's a lot.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah. It's the real policy. It's the real like you're talking about here. Yeah. Yeah. So did did you hear anything about does do the rates of truancy increase with age? Is there other way Oh, that's

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: a it's a good question.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Are there a lot of expressing a lot of truancy at the very young?

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: You know what's really interesting is that thought about that. You got little kids missing Mhmm. A lot of school. Yeah. And and I don't you know, I was gonna say that's even more critical, but I don't know if it's any more critical. It's just different. And but but think of all the foundational stuff that that little kids are learning. You know? They're learning their alphabet. They're learning their numbers. They're, you know, they're they're beginning phonics. Right? They're they're learning that t h sounds like this and p h sounds like this. And, you know, as the as the statistics show, you know, those little kids that that are missing a lot of school, by the end of second grade, they could be, you know Right. Back in the carcasses, right, compared to their peers who go The up every

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: data tends to have some intersection in early years with expulsion and suspension. So when I did the first bill to stop expelling kids under aide, which didn't pass the first year I introduced it. Right. But when I introduced that bill, one of the studies that comes up pretty quickly when you look is that early childhood is where the most suspensions and expulsions happen. I Yep. That's It's largely because they get to have zero tolerance policy. They you know, in a in a seller's market, they could just be like, look. You're not picking your kid up on time or you're not you know? And expel kids from

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: the program that way. It's sad. It's a Manchester kid. I know.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Why

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: was Section five put in there? The home study, home study program attendance requirement? Right. Part of

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: of the bill, good, I forgot that.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: I think that they want to It's the very last, very last section five, it's four saves.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: The last school.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: Probably in some

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: speech. Sorry, Seth.

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: No, no, It's the beginning. Go ahead.

[Legislative Staff/Counsel (Unidentified)]: So this well, I actually think I had mentioned this quite the last when we first got our walk through, so there was a lot of language for this. It was this is going back to 2024, so my memory might be wrong. There was the language surrounding these home study program and kind of environments was changed, but there was a section taken out regarding a hearing if there's an issue with essentially a child not getting a home study, even though they're signed up for it, but the language or the hearings was taken out, and I think that was inadvertent, and then it was put back into the miscellaneous education bill in 2024. It came back for a veto session on June 17, and that was the last calendar that existed for that biennial, and the bill wasn't moved on. And so the language that puts the home study hearing process back into law never passed. So I'm gonna keep recommending that we don't put this to a study because we already have the language for it and just put it back into law because the miscellaneous bill died.

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: Yeah. Remember I remember the conversation now about that, and it was just you know, they just kinda wanted to know a little bit more. And this kinda is dovetailing in my mind with with another conversation. I think it was somebody from DCF. They were in and I think it was even attached to this, you know, of their frustrations is if they're if they have a situation with a kid where, you know, they feel that maybe things at home aren't good, and the parent pulls the kid and says, Well, now I'm gonna homeschool to stop any kind of investigation, to stop any kind of forward progress on helping this kid. But I think that people also want some checks and balances for the homeschool folks. Right? Is that, that was that piece that you were talking about? So, you know, I don't know if that happens a lot, but it happens to this point of frustration, I think, for those professionals who are trying to help kids who might be in trouble. And then suddenly a parent pulls me and says, well, we're gonna.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Yeah. That's me. Being quiet. Okay.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah. Thank you. That was Yeah. You're welcome. That was good. Good. Glad you gave me good job. Yep.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: Okay. First Stay down. Sure. Alright.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah. We're fine too. Thank you. I

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: wouldn't go that far.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: Have a good day.

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: See you guys. Thank you. Okay. Have a good evening.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: We have Courtney O'Brien.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Oh, and my colleague, was just playing tricks on college education because I attended an earlier testimony virtually up at the office and in between. Scurried down here, so I will move on to that today. Who's ready to spell the record?

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah, for the record.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Okay. For the record, I am Courtney O'Brien. I use sheher pronouns. I'm the agency of education's director for Safety and Healthy Schools. Hi. It's Jamie Crabill. I'll see if she birth pronouns. I am assistant attorney general at the agency of education. Just wanna be clear, I'm here for the agency of education, not the attorney general. Thank you, Bennington.

[Jamie Crabill (Assistant Attorney General assigned to AOE)]: So we have prepared written testimony today to discuss the bill. I know you've also certainly just heard some recent testimony as well from House Education. Before I jump in

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah, we've gone through, we've done a walk through.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: You've done a walk through? Yep. Was just going to offer a quick run through of what I'd like to talk about today, and then certainly if you'd like us to adjust, we can go in any direction you need. I'll reiterate a couple of the key points that I think you've just heard about why this bill is important and what it offers us in both short and long term impacts for Vermont. I'll talk about the agency's strategic plan around this, which includes not just the updates to statute, but some additional work that's been happening in parallel. And then of note, since the introduction of this bill to house education, there were several amendments and adjustments that were introduced. For most part, we are very much in agreement with these, but there are a couple of those new provisions that we'd like to discuss and offer alternatives to. Is there anything additional that you'd like to talk about today?

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Nope, let's circle to what you have.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Short list, right? Excellent. So again, I want to thank everybody for the opportunity to come back and talk about this bill. The attention and the conversation and the enthusiasm for this bill from both committees has been much appreciated, and I think it really shows that this bill is offering a very practical solution to a pervasive problem here in Vermont. We also want to recognize that chronic absenteeism is impacted by a number of root causes that exist both within school systems and outside of school systems, and so while this is one very critical piece of this work, managing and resolving chronic absenteeism for Vermont is not a solution that can only be provided by the school system. So I think that's very important to keep reiterating that this needs to be a all state commitment. Nationally, we are seeing other states that are jumping into this work in similar ways, and what we're seeing in the places that have been successful in their efforts are unified, multi agency community level commitment to addressing chronic absenteeism, not a task that is assigned only to the education system. So we want to make sure we're being clear on that as we move through. The agency's strategy or how we do support the education system's role in this work begins with these updates to Title 16. So I really appreciate the question, why this bill, why now, what is this really meant to do? In a lot of ways, this is the first domino to fall in that paradigm shift that was being discussed. So we do, we have a need to create definitions and consistency around what is chronic absenteeism, not just in how we manage that through model policy and model procedures, but the term chronic absenteeism does not exist in our statutes, and it does not exist as a federal requirement. So it's a federal construct that is talked about and that we do offer some data and reporting on, but it is not something that is codified in the same way that we are introducing in this language here. Consistency is a really important part of this process, so as you've just heard, there's extreme variance in how we are managing currently truancy, but how we're managing absenteeism and attendance across the state. And so this bill introduces the really needed foundations for what are we talking about, how we're measuring, and creating those minimum standards for this across the state. That consistency is important, not just in the early intervention, certainly that's a huge part of this work, but all the way through that continuum into truancy, which does still exist as a tool in this new, in the statute, right? So it's the kind of most intensive intervention that's needed. But the consistency then creates an expectation that by the time a truancy case is referred to the state's attorney's office, there are minimum standards on what is documented, what intervention has happened, what supports have been provided to a family, and it creates a more streamlined force for the state's attorneys who are working on these cases at that level. Beyond Title 16, as we talked about, 16 would introduce the requirement of a model policy that would be maintained by the agency in collaboration with our partners in education, and also across state agencies. So because of the places where education law intersects with the child protection law and with agency of human services law, we have been and will continue to be working very closely with our partners at DCF in particular to make sure that model policies are in alignment with other places in state law where this process is discussed. So we've been working through that. We engaged over the last two ish years in some pretty in-depth shareholder engagement and feedback around what's working, what's not. A lot of the same things that you've already heard came to light in those conversations, including from the state's attorneys and sheriff's office. So we were able to get some insight from them as well around what's happening when you have a case referred to you and what are you seeing as success. Again, really heard loud and clear that the variance across the state is becoming a barrier or has been a barrier in that space. So the model policy would establish consistent definitions, data practices, which are very important in our ability to measure, understand, and then continue to make improvements around attendance, and evidence based intervention frameworks, while also preserving local control. So the intent of a model policy would not be to be so prescriptive that it's a how to step by step guidebook for school districts. It's really thinking about what are those minimum standards of intervention? Where do we have a must versus a should in a best practice? And establishing that consistent baseline across the state. Further, beyond model policy development, that absolutely needs to be and would be supported by additional risk resources. So that would be a model procedures document, which is more about that. How do we deal with the school system? It's very educator focused. I often talk about that as the guidebook or the playbook for these different processes. This would also need to be supported by technical resources and assistance, things like template letters and being able to elevate or spotlight parts of the state that have already approached this work and are seeing some success. Chittenden County is an example that comes to mind. There's a coalition that's working specifically in attendance right now, and they've made some really great improvements. And so thinking about how do we uplift those processes that work well and still allow for space to individualize or adjust those approaches in other parts of the state that are perhaps more resource challenged or have different set of available centers.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Who could we have in? You said you talked about a district that's doing this and making some progress. Interesting to have them in.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Chittenden County has a number of districts that are working together and I believe they're being led by a representative from the Howard Center. Lisa Krebs is our contact there. I'd be happy to facilitate an introduction. Yeah, absolutely.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: That'd be great.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Yes, so no, that's quite all right. I think where we're starting to land on here is that this is not a one and done solution. Again, really talk about this as step one, which builds the strong foundation. In education, in the education space, this will be met with technical assistance, Again, things like office hours or collaborations, or how do we uplift or spotlight in places where this is working. This is a multi year ongoing project. In addition to that, we would then expect is that over the next couple of years after this foundation is set and we've kind of created some norms around this process, there are other state agencies and community partners that would then need to come to the table and be thinking about root causes and potential solutions in their own space, right? So if we think about things like in school causes, which may link to student engagement, which may link to harassment, hazing, and bullying, which may link to having access to a high quality teacher, those are things that education would be focusing on after we've set this foundation. Things like transportation or housing availability or different rural challenges, those are all things that would need to be brought forth by other agencies. So far we are seeing some general support from many of our partners in that space. Okay, so before I shift into the specific provisions that we wanted to talk about, are there any questions about the larger strategy? Okay, so in the latest iteration of this, I'll just go through the different sections and teaching you may have had the policy up, so I don't have the specific line and section up, I have just kind of topic and content to talk through. The first is the addition of specific provisions for how to address the absence of a child with disability in accordance with state and federal law. Very much in agreement with this in concept. These protections are already provided in both state and federal law and other places, and so our suggestion is that that may not be most beneficial to include in the statute here, where we will then potentially create confusion or duplicate

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Exactly environment around where are we?

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: That's on page six, line four of the current bill. Well

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And so your subjective would be.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Your suggestion would be to strike this section from the statute and then reiterate and reinforce in model procedure and protocols.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: You say the section, did you obtain? I

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: would say from like three to most of line five. Just to reiterate, I see most of line five up until comma eight.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: Page six?

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Oh, on page six, yes.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: Sorry, missed your hand. Page six, line three through five.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Yes. Which shall include specific provision for how to address the absence of a child with a disability, etcetera.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: And you have verbiage that you prefer to put in there?

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: I think we would just recommend striking Starting where

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: I'm pinching more?

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Starting with which, finishing with caught my hands. And again, reiterating the intent here is not to strike that protection. It is reinforced in multiple other places in both state and federal law, and so again, just making sure that we have clarity of where these definitions and requirements exist rather than creating a duplicate section of requirement.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: So this is just cutting down on redundancy, I think?

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: I think so. Yes. I think it's both cutting down on redundancy and also know, policy is really a high level book. It was something passed by a school board. And when you get down to procedures, which are something we would also put out there, or a best practices document, we can delve more into supporting children with disabilities with respect to attendance and those. But having specific provisions in a policy makes it less possible to be responsive to needs, and it also could be distracting to the main goal of addressing substance use.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So are you, just to be really clear, are you actually talking about starting the line four with the words as that term is defined?

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: No. Start on line three,

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: at which shall I? Which shall include specific provisions for a counselor who directs the absence of the child.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: So you give her the whole clause. Okay.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Yeah, the whole clause.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: And all the way down through after federal law, there's comma.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: After federal law, there's comma and. Okay. So we could to

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: Get rid of and as well?

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Yeah. So then it would be a model policy on the prevention of chronic absenteeism and truancy, which does include guidance that emphasizes the importance of tailored responses.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay, got Thank

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: you. There are two editions that reference different needs around hazing, harassment, and bullying, and so may I ask you to those lines? First is on page, page five, line five. Everybody's recommends cutting number 12, incidents of hazing harassment. And why is that? Yeah. So, looking back to my notes here. This specific inclusion as a scandal and category of excused absences, we think, one is not clear, so we're not really sure what we're talking about around incidents regarding HHV. The nature of an HHV incident on a child could be short term, long term impact. There's not a lot of definition there on what we're talking about. There are already, there's already a line in here around students who may need to be excused for health or mental health needs, and so we would expect that if this child is experiencing some sort of mental health disruption as a result of an HHB incident, that they would be able to utilize that option there instead. I think I have a, the second part of this is around HHB data collection, the reasoning I think applies to both. Can I jump in here, As well? You know, the other excusal reasons are also events in the outside world that are having an impact on a student's ability

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: to

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: attend school. This one stands separate from those because there's really something that is happening within the school and that the school has control over. And frankly, that the school has tools that they should be considering using. They can put in place safety plans. They can put in place counseling for students. They have a lot of tools at the ready. And I think we also have a concern that putting an excused absence in here may have the inadvertent consequence of telling schools and families that this is the best way to protect your child when there's other tools at the ready to protect their children from harassment based people. The schools should be using as sort of a frontline mechanism. And then, in addition to that, it's not as if the student is really having a serious mental health or physical reaction to harassment, case, or bullying, there are other ways to have a meeting with students at school. We just don't want that inadvertent consequence or messaging, given the importance of

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So school that's interesting, because what you're saying is that the danger of leaving this in is that it becomes easier for the school to just say, Oh, you're being bullied so stable, when, in fact, the school should actually deal with bullying.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: I would agree to the second part of your statement. I'm not sure that the fear is necessarily that it will be weaponized in quite that way.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Why not be weaponized, but it would be, make it easier?

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: It becomes, yeah, it definitely becomes a, it's an excused abbast, right? So whether through the family's perspective or from the schools, it becomes, as Jamie was explaining, kind of potentially a default solution to Yeah, and those that's not what we would want to be. You

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: want them to

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: deal with their Yes, absolutely. And, in thinking about the practical implementation of something like this, there is a need. So there's another strategy being worked on right now at the agency around improvements for HIV prevention. And without going too far into the detail about that work, we are having conversations about how do we collect data related to HHV, how do we understand the impact of HHV and bullying, including missed time from school, classes, or other student activities. And so my expectation would be that we will see some data revision around this in the coming, hopefully, year, if not, certainly soon thereafter. But HHB prevention is a much larger thing to tackle right now, and our suggestion would be to hold any specific HHB solutions or needs for part of a larger, more comprehensive strategy there. So, in terms of the chronic absenteeism bill, we feel that the absences that would otherwise be met under that addition could be categorized under the other excused absences lines around physical and mental illness. Then the second piece that relates to harassing, hazing, and bullying starts on page six, slides nine through 11. I think we would recommend striking those lines as well. So these are the lines, which speak to the addition of protocols, including in the model policy, the addition of protocols to respond effectively to bullying and harassment, acknowledging unique aspects of each space, including best practices for reentry into education spaces. So, needing more in-depth support for reentry into education spaces is absolutely a primary need here. The attachment to the HHB issues, again, in thinking about larger strategy, HHB is defined and HHB prevention requirements are already defined under state statute in Title 16, Section five seventy and forward. So, are actively engaged in thinking about revisions to model policies, particularly emphasizing and growing prevention strategies, much like we're talking about here for chronic absenteeism, but in specifically harassment, hazing, and bullying space, and we would recommend that we do not attach those two things together in the chronic absenteeism model policy, and instead, if needed, think about a more comprehensive HHB prevention update strategy, etcetera.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So I'm sitting here thinking it's also such a factor.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: It is. And I

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Why are we taking it out?

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: It is such a factor that it is deserving of its own comprehensive approach. And so again, about this bill being the keystone to a number of other improvements that need to be made around root causes. We have an arm of that, which is in HHV prevention, which we are deeply involved in right now. We've gone over the last year or so through a public engagement process on the existing prevention policy. We have come to the conclusion that it is not sufficient, and so we're working on how do we create meaningful change through that process as well. Along with that, we're revising our model procedure, so data collection, etcetera. It is its own specific subset of this work. Similarly, we've talked about things like improving student engagement, improving access to high quality instructors. Those are all different forms of this strategy that will take life in their own comprehensive ways, rather than creating this bill here, which, you know, by that thinking chronic absenteeism is going touch all of these things, so why would we include it here, has the potential to snowball and become really, really difficult to manage. I'd also add that, you know, the language of this, the policy shall include protocols to respond effectively to bullying harassment, That is already called for in '16 GSA five seventy. So there is already a required follow-up policy procedures for prevention of harassment and bullying. So to have it here could be duplicative and of, well, the whole, like, prevention of chronic absenteeism doesn't necessarily need the entire weight of harassment, hazygogia prevention as part of it. Now, reentering the education spaces, that seems, that seems closer to this round. You know, some the titles extended absence. You're trying to figure out how to get them coming back, that would be in a policy like this, he'd be, prevention of harassment, he's got, got a whole set of tools already, in existence that we're also working on. Okay. I think our last section and Jamie, if you can help me find the line here. There's two templates that are mentioned, and those are the same page. Six lines 11 through 15. Template for documentation of actions taken according to the policy to address the absence, which shall constitute the surety reporting protocol. And then the policy shall include a template for standard documentation to be provided to parents or guardians person to second. Eleven twenty seven, first chapter. And So our our Go ahead. Similar to our feedback to the other previous sections, we would suggest that this level of detail is most appropriate for model procedures or technical assistance rather than in policy. The nature of those templates is very likely to need to be updated responsibly in consideration of different evolving needs and expectations around documentation, whether through the state's attorneys and sheriffs or through other partners and through engagement by education administrators. So, if we think about communication needs in certain parts of the state or our schools know our communities best and they need to adjust the way that they communicate to meet those needs best. If we were to embed specific templates to that level of detail in a model policy, it very much limits our collective ability to provide real time revision in the future. We'd be going back through this process of policy revision rather than making responsive change.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So you're saying put it in guidance,

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: is it? We think it goes in guidance, yes.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: Great. Starting at policy, you're doing that. Where do you want to start?

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Start at

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: What's that right here? It's thirteen

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: or fourteen is where you started.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Start at eleven. This policy shall also

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: Oh, so right

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: after For documentation. And then the policy shall also include so the end of line 11 through the implant.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: Okay,

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: so the other notable additions that were included in the latest iteration are the inclusion of guidance that emphasizes the importance of tailored responses to students struggling with safety and emotional issues, and also separately the inclusion of a home study report due December 2026. We do not have any objections to these additions. We agree that they will strengthen this comprehensive strategy and our ability to make change here.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So the home studies program come from you or is that

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: It would be a different team. So our team is the Safe and Healthy Schools division is leading the chronic absenteeism work. Home study would be managed by our education program approval team. However, they have given me their full blessing to voice our support for that. It's a it is yeah.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: But this section just but worse from the committee or did

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: her work the committee? There were conversations in various committee test committee testimony and also reflected in some of the shareholder engagement that we did that weighed some concerns for home study programs and the intersection of a home study program with fluency and thinking about is this an exit strategy for a fluency situation. And so, think through the conversation, the topic of home study rose up with a lot of interest and the solution has been that we need to find out more information before we can make any decisions. And so I think we are in agreement that that study is feasible.

[Legislative Staff/Counsel (Unidentified)]: So in terms of, separate from the topic that you just described, but still in the home study program realm, do you have a position on putting back in the language that didn't survive miscellaneous bill?

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: I no. I I do not. That would need to be probably a conversation with the secretary, but it's What not part of our shopping

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: what did that do for Senator Rutland?

[Legislative Staff/Counsel (Unidentified)]: It so there was a hearing process in the event that there were, Greta, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: It's here as after enrollment. Yeah.

[Legislative Staff/Counsel (Unidentified)]: It would be

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: right where DCF would step, could step in.

[Legislative Staff/Counsel (Unidentified)]: Yeah, so we had a hearing process if there were issues with enrollment or absenteeism in a home study program, but that was inadvertently taken out when we made some sweeping changes to all studies, and we attempted to put it back in in the second year of the Miami with Champion. It was here. And then the miscellaneous bill died on the war. I know it. Champion, Conlon, but that's in the past. Either way, there was language that was crafted and brought back to life or an attempt to bring it

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: back to life. He's like, bring

[Legislative Staff/Counsel (Unidentified)]: it back to the statue, but didn't go anywhere. And Okay. That,

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: Yes. So they're asking to improve oversight of home study programs to ensure home study participants comply with attendancy requirements. What's that gonna be?

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Part of the question we answered through a study, quite honestly. I think that's our current state. We collect attendance data for our public school systems only. So, this bill also, even as written as expanding that data requirement into our independent schools that receive public funding, which is different than we currently collect. We don't collect attendance data for home study programs in the same way. The mechanisms are very different. The tracking of that's very different. So we would agree, like, I don't know that we'd be able to even hypothesize what that would look like right now without

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: And has there been an issue that is driving that we need to do this study?

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Again, I think it came up as a point of curiosity, and I think we had, as we heard there were a number of changes that were made to home study approvals in the last eight ish years somewhere.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: I'm not sure exactly what that's right.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Home study is a different program managed with the agency, so it has a different set of regulations. We heard discussion really through the entire process, right, from our early feedback through committee testimony that there were concerns about whether enrollment in home study programs, because those programs are not managed in the same level of we don't manage attendance for home study programs, if that was being utilized as a way to avoid absenteeism and truancy issues in a public school system and that families were using it as kind of an off ramp.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: My wife did homeschool a few years ago, but you gotta apply curriculum. It's not an easy, just, Hey, I'm gonna homeschool. And you have to provide a lot of information. I would think that alone would deter anybody that if they're not happy at school, saying, Hey, I'm just gonna homeschool my kid. It just So it's not your department that It's drove

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: not in our department, but there were, just so you're aware, there were a number of changes in 2023 that changed a lot of what is actually required upfront. So, the level of cremation as required upfront from families changed

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: as well as It didn't decrease though. Anything had increased. I suppose if you could get somebody to hear from that, so

[Legislative Staff/Counsel (Unidentified)]: early to hear. Lot of it was taken out in terms of what people have to report. And inadvertently, what was also taken out was the hearings after enrollment in which if there was a concern that a child was enrolled in homeschooling but they weren't actually getting any homeschooling, that somebody, a party could make the complaint that this homeschooling situation needs to be reexamined because there are concerns about whether they're actually getting educated.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: But that's the difference from attendance. That's the deputy can use it, but I don't mind. It just doesn't make sense that you're checking attendance on homeschooling. Right, I

[Legislative Staff/Counsel (Unidentified)]: may have misspoke, there isn't attendance for homeschooling as far as I'm aware, but-

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: I think there are days in school, days of actively engaging curriculum, hours for different subjects. There should be.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: Yeah, believe you're right. It says attendance requirements. I don't know what else

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: to be called.

[Legislative Staff/Counsel (Unidentified)]: Just a thought. What if we heard from Rutland? Yep. And I'm not

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: putting you on the spot. I'm trying to be very quiet.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So why don't you chime in a little bit? Identify yourself for the record.

[Brenda Dunlap (Homeschool advocate, Vermont Home Educators)]: My name is Brenda Dunlap, and I'm a homeschool advocate with Vermont Home Educators of Vermont for thirty years now. So I've got some institutional knowledge in my head.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Why don't we actually just await you to testify? I think that's a good idea. So, anything else? No,

[Brenda Dunlap (Homeschool advocate, Vermont Home Educators)]: thank you. I think I'll just reiterate for this particular bill, the inclusion of the home study report clause was introduced by committee to try to alleviate some of these questions, right? And really recognizing that if this bill prompted questions around attendance and home study program post, it is not a bill designed to update the home study approval requirements, and so that's where that parsing out happened.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yes.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: In summary, again, we just we appreciate the attention to this, and I'd like to reiterate that this feels like a solvable problem for Vermont. We have a lot of conversations around seemingly unsolvable challenges, and this is this is one of those places where we're seeing some very simple solutions to this work that are showing success in other parts of the country, as states are also seeing similar patterns of attendance issues post pandemic. So, we are connected through an existing contract with AOE with a set of national partners, nationally certified partners in this space who have been involved in the work. All of this is being informed by best practices that are seeing results. And what we are seeing going through is that this work has to start with a consistent and clear set of definitions for chronic absenteeism. So that is where we end. And I am available for questions.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: Thank you. Thank you. That was helpful. Thank you. It's a good discussion.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So we are now shifting gears to our last witness of the day. So this is just a little bit more work for our budget letter, a little bit more testimony towards the frame of our budget letter. And just to say it again, I'll make sure everybody comes with us.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Comes where? Here. Here. Like, stays here with us.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: With your

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: I I hope it's somewhere.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah. It goes.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: So Rebecca, the floor is yours. Thank you. Thank

[Rebecca Covance (Associate Director, McClure Foundation)]: you for having me and inviting my testimony today. My name is Rebecca Covance, and I'm the associate director of the McClure Foundation. We are a thirty year affiliate of the Vermont Community Foundation that works to close the opportunity gap and strengthen rural communities by investing in purposeful pathways that lead to Vermont's promising jobs. Our work sits on the nexus of education, youth development, career pathways, and workforce development. At the Millclair Foundation, compelled by the data that you know probably too well, Vermont's longtime status as as having the lowest college continuation rates in New England, and it's relatively new status as having the lowest high school completion rates in New England and projections about high pay, high demand job. We have long funded good ideas and public private partnerships where they have the potential to connect the dots between what Vermonters need and the future, future talent pipeline that Vermont employers need. The projects and ideas that we've helped test, design, and scale are some that you may know. We and I'll just run through a few of them. That's okay. We helped pilot incarcerated education through CCB, which paved the way for federal funding to scale free courses and advising for inmates and Vermont's correctional officers. The McClure Foundation has partnered us.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Do we have this testimony in written form? Yeah. Okay.

[Rebecca Covance (Associate Director, McClure Foundation)]: Yeah. Okay. Across bipartisan administrations with the Vermont Department of Labor to create FIST, Vermont's most promising jobs list, which I brought for you.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: Here you go. Legs done. This

[Rebecca Covance (Associate Director, McClure Foundation)]: serves as a really simple conversation starter about in demand careers that offer good wages. We were a thought partner around the critical obligations framework the legislature adopted during COVID. Because teachers are the profession that make all other careers possible, We invest in public teacher workforce development, including through early career on ramps that start with flexible pathways like CTE and dual enrollment, innovative pathway to licensure, including new registered apprenticeship programs and a pilot to stipend to the unpaid full time student teaching semester of students pursuing licensure through BTSU. We offered a surprisingly successful graduation gift to the high school class of twenty twenty, one free C suite course that a student is choosing. About 600 graduating seniors took us up on that offer, and it taught us a lot about the messaging effects of free and available to all. When we pair it with community college, our state's gateway institution. The lessons from that grad gift and a decade of supporting the equitable implementation of the flexible pathways statute led us to the current initiative that we support, an accelerated debt free associate's degree pathway for high school students statewide. The free degree promise, which I brought us another cheat sheet if you'd like more information about this one. The Free Degree Promise is an accelerated debt free associate degree pathway that builds on existing state and federal public policy to offer students who successfully complete the state's early college program at TCB the chance to persist at TCB and earn a debt free, fast tracked associate degree of their choosing. Four years in, and the program's inspiring enrollment among youth furthest from opportunity. DCD has seen triple the number of low income students accessing early college. This year's cohort is 50% low income, which is higher than their peer rate in the general K-twelve population. Through the Free Promise, these students are persisting at TCE at triple the historic rates. The Free Degree Promise students are graduating at twice the rate and in half the time as their peers in community colleges nationally. Last spring, over 70 young people representing 13 Vermont counties, nearly half of whom were first generation college students, earned their associate degrees for an average of one year after high school graduation. I think That's pretty remarkable. Twenty five percent earned degrees in healthcare and behavioral science, fourteen percent were in business, and 17% were in STEM, environmental science, and information technology. This is the future workforce that all Vermont employers are hoping for. These are students like Erin. If you like to read, you can read I wrote a story about Erin here, which is pretty great. I only brought one of my. So Erin is from White River Junction, who's who's now at BTSU Cackleton as a junior with the goal of becoming a high school art teacher. Kaylee from Fletcher, who's now at VTSU in pursuit of a registered nursing degree. Wyatt from East Fairfield, who earned his environmental science degree, and he has the goal of working for the Department of Fish and Wildlife. And Colin from Vergens, who transferred into his junior year of a four year bachelor's degree in Burlington in our information technology. And so we have countless examples just like these students across the state. And then I'm gonna actually share one more story with you if anyone wants to read it. This is about a young man who was a free re promised student from Williamstown who is has goal of becoming he's he's owning his own HVAC business. I mean, these success stories are just like abound. They abound, which is really lovely to share. So chair Bongartz asked us to give a short background about who we are and what we fund. So I'm happy to take any questions about the free degree promise or any of our other programs, but what I actually came here today to talk about was an observation that has led to our one recommendation of this legislative session. A central premise of our investments at the Mogartz Foundation is that career connected public post secondary education drives economic mobility. Our decision to partner with the BSD generally and the community of College of Vermont specifically over the years is highly strategic. They have been a cornerstone of our portfolio the last decade because they're consistently ready to serve and aware of the greatest number of low income students, low income Vermonters enroll. In the past years, we've offered testimony with our thoughts on the need for a clearer strategic objective behind the roughly $820,000,000 or so in annual funding in higher education. Because the Education Trust Fund has become a topic of conversation this year, I wanna note here that the McClure Foundation has a longstanding view that the fund's statutory distribution structure stands to be modernized to reflect by needs the places where low income students are enrolling at scale, specifically the two Vermont State College institutions, the Community College of Vermont and Vermont State University. This could be accomplished through a recommendation in your FY twenty seven budget letter to change just a few words in statute. Currently, are three beneficiaries are named in statute to receive the annual distribution in equal shares. The University of Vermont, the BEADS Act, and the Vermont State Colleges. The statute was created at the time that the Vermont State College System comprised five institutions. The consolidation of the state colleges creates a strategic opportunity to update the statute to better align with funds intent. The statutory intent of fund is to support non loan student aid. That's really key. Replacing the Vermont State Colleges with its two institutions named directly, thus creating a four way split structure, would more proportionately recognize the colleges that serve the largest number of low income volunteers. State projections indicate that this modernization of statute would result in a redirection of less than $250,000 per year in '26 and '27 from each of the affected beneficiaries. We would note that inspiring more enrollment into DTB also supports a stronger pipeline of transfer students to Vermont's four year institutions. Of course, the fund is just one part of really complex and large Vermont heritage education public funding picture, but it matters because Vermont still has the lowest post secondary continuation rate in New England in the aggregate and disaggregated by specific student organizations who stand to benefit the most from education to high school. So clear public policy vision and goals are part of what's needed to change that condition. So we invite you to keep in touch with good ideas as we scale our grant making. In the coming years, we'll be looking to invest in, test, and scale the ideas that support more young Vermonters to graduate from preschool or plans. And I thank you for your time today. We appreciate the leadership on some of the most thorniest issues facing Vermont. I don't envy you, and I really appreciate you considering updating the higher chance

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: of statute. It's self confessed, Doctor. Holstroke, that's the first time I actually understood what we're doing here. What you're saying is that by the way, together as stakeholders in CCB, we're underfunding. Well, PCB and PGB. The big both.

[Rebecca Covance (Associate Director, McClure Foundation)]: Yeah. The big both. Right.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Because they're only getting one share. It's even though they're very different than they should they should be getting one quarter of the Right. Yeah. Okay.

[Rebecca Covance (Associate Director, McClure Foundation)]: That is exactly what that's for because they they support the the greatest number of income students. Yeah. And we believe they should have a to be directly needs to be to reflect that intention.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. And that language is in that you give it to me once, but it's also in the

[Rebecca Covance (Associate Director, McClure Foundation)]: Yes. Submitted it to the Okay.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Any questions about that? And the numbers are in there as well, right? I

[Rebecca Covance (Associate Director, McClure Foundation)]: submit, I send you this all. Yeah, good. Feel free to follow-up if I

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: have questions at all. Okay.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah, thank you.

[Rebecca Covance (Associate Director, McClure Foundation)]: Thank you. And I should say the prompting jobs list is being updated now. It's gonna be

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: I was gonna say, was looking at some of their numbers, and I'm like, nah. It's a lot higher for plumbers now. Yeah. A lot higher. Right? Yeah.

[Rebecca Covance (Associate Director, McClure Foundation)]: Well, we worked with the Department of Labor to put the data, and we're we we help we design it together, and so you should expect a new version out end of the year this year. So I'll send around when it comes out. Perfect. You.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you. So we have a good meeting. Yeah. So we do let's just send deputy director. Yeah. We anticipated that not to put a meeting.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Got it. Just don't know where. So You need Okay. Right.

[Committee Member (Unidentified)]: So

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: let's just quickly let's just spend just a set of more. Let's come back to the education report transition because that relates to what we do in. But have that have some of these numbers. Right? The the ones they call it to and to locate some of these numbers, they give a pretty complete so this language that we're talking about, I would you might wanna at do a question of this. Governor's recommended, that's what I'm wondering. Yeah. Yeah. Just worked for Governor's recommended. Under Governor's Institute, is that? No, it's not, that's different. Okay. Governor's Institute is down below, and they're looking for 10% more than the government's travel ban. That's on the bottom of page two. Okay. Yeah, we gotta figure out some of these numbers. I see building my future stuff listed twice, by the way. Scratch it off on page three.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Can So. I ask you

[Legislative Staff/Counsel (Unidentified)]: a clarifying question of context for how we're gonna bring this? Are we going to be listing these in order of, in this descending order of what our priority is without modifying what the underlying requests are. We're not gonna be saying, instead of a 3% increase, we recommend a 2% increase.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: We theoretically could do that. Yeah. And I think we did that last year with one Senator Glau, with one item who suggested, yes, are funded, but a little bit less than the Nebraska Board.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: I think it's more specific to the committee. Maybe also that way. Okay. So

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: do we, do people, we don't have to contain numbers here, I suppose. Probably this is the one I'm How do we wanna start this? How do we wanna get out of this? We're here in the chair.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: I usually need like a spreadsheet off the screen.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah, gotta see if we can.

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Can we ask Daphne perhaps do a quick, rough spreadsheet? It's ugly and I'm not expecting much, but that we

[Rep. Rob Hunter (House Education Committee)]: can look at. See if we

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: can find these numbers. Yes, have you right to come up to Denver, but Okay. They weren't I didn't put it anyway. Okay. Well, that's what we're up against, and I think we'll, the next by tomorrow, we can add in the language for the Foundation. About this was certain, I think, by some point on the. Okay. That's where we are. I think we've had we've got everything in here except for the organization for people who've staying with people from one class. Okay. Worked over at at

[Courtney O’Brien (Director of Safety and Healthy Schools, Vermont Agency of Education)]: at