Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: We're live.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay, we're live. It is the afternoon of March. Senate Education Committee. Have, well, it hasn't been on the agenda, but the wait time he worked on, the time he was working for, Senator Hardy had committed an amendment that she has worked up for so called Library Bill, SB32. You will recall the process of this bill, and the 5% raised some issues in the money committees. Senator Harding was one of those two. So I think absorbing what was going on, would be aware of it, or we're aware of it, but Senator Harding prepared an amendment to help perhaps he was to get out of the park. So, with that.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the committee for having me. And I first want to say thank you so much for your work on S-two 32, the library build. I thought you guys did great work on it. I personally was supportive of where you ended up, the 5% and your support of libraries. I thought it was a great idea. And I also feel just sort of gratitude, but also I feel sad that you all didn't get the information that you needed from people you even did it from, and that it was a little rough going for a while. Just thank you. Even though I support the 5%, and I think your chair does as well, and we would like to see that going forward, The rumblings from the administration is that they do not support it and there's a bit of concern about the state of the bill. So, we were trying to find a path forward that would satisfy them, but also satisfy the appropriations committee because that's where there's the biggest kind of pushback on the bill. The finance committee did vote it out seven zero as is, but they also knew that amendment was being worked on. So this is the amendment. I run it through your chair and, the chair of appropriations, and the three of us are on board with one little caveat that I'll, that I'll tell you about as we go through it. But

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So there has to be clear. So their their senate vote really was kind of anticipating this.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Correct. They knew that and we were just trying to move it along. But they didn't know what the details would were of this. But So, this amendment, just the large picture thing that it does is it gets rid of the 5%, 95% because that was the thing that had the biggest pushback on it. So, I have in the if you have the amendment in front of you, in the first instance of amendment, I just added a finding, which, you know, is mostly just to sort of lay it out there that libraries have for more than 125 provided diverse after school and summer programs and literacy opportunities for all children free of charge. These programs often include literacy, arts, technology, or science education, nutritious meals, and creative recreational activities. So just saying what libraries have done for many years. So the substance really is in section two, or the second instance of amendment. This is the section of the bill that had the 95% in it. This takes that out. It makes there's some yellow highlighting in the amendment only except this was in the second part second draft of the amendment, there's no difference between the highlighted and unhighlighted parts. This makes clear that the funding would be to establish a grant program that supports sustaining or expanding universal after school and summer programs, meaning that they could be existing things that have been going on for a long time, or they could be expanding things that doesn't have to be about the expansion. And then the second part is where the 95% was, paragraph two at the bottom. It keeps it removes that, but makes clear that this funding is public, private, or nonprofit organizations, including public libraries, schools, and volunteer mentoring programs. Turns out after talking with Senator Perchlich that volunteer mentoring programs are kind of in the same position that public libraries have been in with this program, and that they tried to apply and they haven't been able to. Senator Heffernan and I actually you remember the thing we went to at Bongartz School and had lunch there. That was volunteer mentoring program. They have tried to What was that called? I think it's like Mentor Vermont. Oh, It's People who volunteer to be mentors for kids. They're usually community based, really kind of small and group they have tried to access this funding and haven't. Senator Perchuk asked me to add that. The agency may allocate a portion of the funds annually to the Department of Libraries for the purpose of providing sub grants to public libraries to sustain or create summer and after school programs. Lieu of the 5%, that's what this is. They may give them a chunk of money and then the Department of Libraries can sub grant it, but it just doesn't say how much. And then, a coalition or group of public libraries may also apply for a grant from the agency or the department. So, if all of the libraries in Windham County, for example, in the Center of Machine's District wanted to band together and apply for the money for their summer programs, they could do that. This next paragraph is the one that the appropriations committee, I think, is going to take the biggest look at, which is the agency right now has $500,000 to administer the program. One of the push backs that I got in talking to the chair of the committee, advisory committee is, you know, we've already allocated a bunch of money, we're not gonna have the money to give to libraries or other organizations. So, you know, I, in this amendment, suggest, well, maybe you don't need as much for administration. 500,000 is quite a bit of money to administer a relatively small grant program. I think appropriations is going look at this more and try to get some information from AOE. As you can imagine, AOE doesn't want to give up the money. But

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: if simplify the form, it should take a long time.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Exactly. And I think also they give out grants that are for five you know, three to five years, so it's kind of a one time thing. Regardless, Approach is gonna look at that, and it will undoubtedly change. And then, this is to get to some of the issues that I know you all talked about, the agency's help create a simple application and reporting process that reduces barriers to grant program participation for small community based organizations such as rural libraries, volunteer mentoring programs, similar organizations. And then the final thing, the bottom of page two oh, not not it keeps the state librarian on the advisory committee. You all have that here amendment. It's just here because was amending that section. And then annually, the advisory committee shall solicit input on the grant program and procedures established pursuant to the section. The advisory committee shall hold a public hold a meeting to discuss the public input and any plans to implement changes, recommended changes to the grant program. Meaning they gotta get feedback and change the process if it's not working for potential. That is the impediment. The bill is in appropriations right now, so it's sort of like out of all of our hands, but I am going there at 03:00 to present the amendment. So I would love to be able to give them information about what your committee thinks.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Cool. You may have There

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: he is. Okay.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: No. Just one minute to, you know, kind of lose track of things after Of course. Passes some way we can get a report back on. I'm concerned about the libraries. You know, they operate on interest. Get a report

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: back on whether they got any of the grants?

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Well, what they, you know, what they you're saying they're gonna report back on, you know, what money was available. If we get additional load of cannabis tax, that's where the money's coming from. Yep. You know, maybe they could give them 250,000.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: I'm just wondering how we provide oversight methods.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: I'm all for more oversight. Do they already do an annual report though? They might.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So we also, they always have them in. Right.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: So I had gendered up a report for this.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Oh, yeah. You're the reporter.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: And the the understanding was this came I watched the testimony back again from the libraries. The library says an annual report. AOE does an annual report. So AOE first would report that they actually didn't provide the money, and the libraries do a report instead of doing a separate report for this simply. Okay. They agree just to to pull it into their annual.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: That is. Subversion. Thank you.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: I think I'm I'm hoping for more clarity or definitions as to what a volunteer mentoring program is. For example, a nonprofit organization, it's easy to look at the nonprofit clause. It's easy to look at a nonprofit tax reporting. But is there anything that defines what a volunteer mentoring program is? That is a very good question. I added this stuff about

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: the mentoring programs for Senator Herchlicht. So, it's really, I can see if he has more information. There is an organization, I think it's called Mentoring Vermont or Mentor Vermont that runs most of these, but they are community based. So the one that Senator Heffernan and I went to was specific to the Little Moncton School. But I don't know, that's a good point, making sure it's not just a fly by night kind of.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah, yeah. Of course they wouldn't give them the grant probably, I saw, actually we'll do something a little unorthodox. Sorry. Seem to know what you're talking Thanks. You're about to tell them.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: My wife, I'm from Cabot and we have a mentoring program in our town.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: You want me to identify yourself

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: as well.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: Oh yeah, I'm sorry, Chris called me. I'm on the school board in Cabot, but remember, lots of people wear different hats in small towns. So my wife, Mary Ann, has been the leader of the board of our mentoring group in Cabot. And the way it works is all the mentors in our community and across Central Vermont are volunteers. But in the budget they have for our town wide mentoring group, there's a coordinator that is paid a stipend based on how many hours she or she works. So, it's largely volunteer, but I know they have some money in for the person in our town that reaches out and gets new mentors from the community and matches them up with kids.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: That's helpful, I think generally speaking, I'm hoping just to get some more information about what guardrails there are in statute. I guess, I just want to make sure that somebody can't just say, I'm a volunteer mentoring program, please, and, you know, I mean, I'm all for, you know, the volunteer mentoring programs in general, but I just want to

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: make sure there's

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: some degree of

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: guardrails and The ones that I know in my there also is a mentoring program called Everybody Wins with our elementary school in Middlebury and then the high school and middle school. I think the middle school actually has a mentoring program where Middlebury College students come in and are mentors for the middle schoolers. So, if we said something just thinking out loud

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: here like school or preach or

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: something like that that the school is letting them in, you know, then they must be legit, but I don't know. I can also ask Senator Perchland for more information, to see if there's some way to describe it so it's clear that they are.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: There is a group Yeah.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: It is. Okay, so Senator Govman. So we have the agency May Allergy. That also means saving time. Is that correct? Yes. Hearing from the libraries, it's been a chore for them to get money and a big AOE. Yeah. Can we change that wording? Shall allocate? We think that's gonna

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: give you a push back.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Well, that's how the bill started. It was like a shall allocate reasonable proportion, I think, or something I said because I wasn't sure how much to say. You know, I didn't wanna pick a number. And then you guys made it really clear that it should be 5%, which we can totally appreciate it. I'm gonna guess we would still get pushback if we made it into a shell.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: But if we do only up to 250,000, I would think that that's more than, it's about compromise always in this building, and you're cutting the money in half anyway. And I think it should, I think it should be a shalom out of pain. It's just my opinion, but-

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Well, there's an application process, so there'll be people who apply to So if you save shells that means there's their time to get it. Exactly. You

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: point of the department of library gets a cut not that they get in line for application process, but they get a certain amount of funding. Could they then give you out to the libraries?

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: So we'll be ready for an application process.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: I'm saying no. AUE's got the application process. Right. If they don't have money, that's not a shell.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: No problem. Do you afford do you believe we'll

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: get a lot of pushback if we

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: put the shell for the

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: for 250,000?

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Well, the 250,000 is the the I didn't make a direct connection between the two. I was just sort of suggesting if you're looking for money, it cut your administrative expenses. But my guess is that appropriations is gonna take a look at that and maybe not go for it. Just speculating here. But, so I just wanna ask you, Senator, are you suggesting also a shout? I think that's

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: the whole point of the bill. It's 99 percent of

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: the bill.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah, yeah. Other than that,

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: it doesn't really change it. Right. It just puts in that

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: they because they're could eligible now.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah. Well, the one thing it does, not under our regular way about that, the shelf, but the one thing it really does do is what we were trying to get them to do when we got them back in here that second time was to put together an application that is simply a simple application and a simple reporting process. That's now in here. So that's what we were looking for when we cut them back in here. I'm I'm not obating that to the show or not but it does do that. Does regarding,

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: I mean, so wasn't the main idea say, you know, all of these smaller, more rural libraries with perhaps one or two employees, you know, they're not, they don't have the bandwidth to go through this ten, fifteen hour applications. So, let's give that to the Department of Libraries and the Department of Libraries can fill out their application provided to AOE and then the department will get funds assuming their application is approved. I'm wondering and and I'm all in support of making sure the department gets funds here but doesn't that it it it seems like changing it to a shell kind of takes it a bit, takes it a few extra steps further and just saying the department is going to get this money. They don't even have to do the application the way all these other entities also have to do the documentation. So, you know, department, do the application. Here's the money probably that you'll get, and then disperse it to your lower subordinate libraries.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: It's just commenting. So, yeah, a couple things. I think we we didn't didn't envision that the Department of Libraries would provide an application to the AOE for their originally 5%. We just assumed that it was directed to Shell, 5% cannabis tax revenue. There wasn't an application there so that may have been maybe misconception, but I went back through all the videos, didn't see anything like that. But I mean we're here in the realm of developing this process. It's it's what what I what I wanted to make a comment on was the 250,000. So I did go back and do some math and listen to people talk again and that we had envisioned 5% of cannabis tax revenue which is 2,300,000.0 cannabis tax revenue for the year. Again this would change year to year based on cannabis tax revenue income, but that it would have been 117,000 per year, not 250,000.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: The 5%?

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: The 5% would have equated to, for the past year, of cannabis tax revenue, 117,000. Just to kind of level set you know was 250,000 right well maybe maybe not you're adding on top of it volunteer mentoring programs which would be you know another slice of one day so.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Well I mean they're the volunteer mentoring programs are already already they could already apply now they're just having the same problems libraries are having and then they allocate a portion that's just for the department libraries but I hear you in terms of the 5% wasn't necessarily as much as people thought it was. It was just a guaranteed amount.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: Yeah, just one other point that during the whole conversation, several organizations and committee members raised the fear, the risk that other folks would come up, pop up for carve outs. Here we go. Okay. We're early in the process. Don't even have bill that's gotten off the floor yet, we've got not a significant group that wants their job. Yeah. It's gonna happen again, it's gonna happen again, so you just have to keep that in mind.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Right, and that's kind of why I put it as a May, is that require it a carve out. It just says, hey, you could do this. Because I think one of the things that they, one of the push backs has been this is a lot, you know, this will, if we have to approve all these tiny little applications a lot more time, well, they can just give the money to the Department of Libraries, and the Department of Libraries can take care of it. They can allocate it to their libraries. They know the libraries. They do, you know. So, it saves them time to take a chunk and give it to the department, but they don't have to do it.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: And that's what I don't want

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: to say. It should be something. What we should probably do is let you go back to committee. Yeah. Go ahead.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Well, I was just I would was hoping to be able to tell approves what you guys thought. That's right. Because I have to go there at three. That's right.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So Yeah.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Let me know.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: So the Paragon Libraries, as a government agency, they get a they they budget every year. So so we're gonna give them this additional library. They may give them additional money over and above the budget amount that they ask for?

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Yeah. But it's not for the Department of Libraries. It They would distribute it out to local libraries, so some of the libraries in all of our Don't district do that now. They don't get any HIM's money.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: Do they? Yes or no. Well, they can So they did say this. Yeah. They don't, not out of their own funding, they distribute funds, but there is a, I can't remember the family name, but there's a family fund that they take that money, they distribute, you remember, $350 per library, and just shotgun it out. $350.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: That's it.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: Yeah. Yeah. And they're happy to get it.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: Some we're happy to get. I'm sure. For their summer reading program.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Tiny little library.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So here's a thought for the committee given, you know, where we are that we say that we are amenable to this amendment. We leave to the appropriations committee the issue of the two fifty versus 500. We can even say. You know, put our thumb on his head over the two fifty, but we're we don't know enough to to the appropriations committee. And we say that we would prefer the word shall to may but we don't want to have that take the bill. So, you could debate. I mean, I'm the, by the way, I'm just suggesting this for the but that

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: we let them know that's what we would like. Even if they, sorry, that they went out of like 150,000 that they will get and actually get four, a base amount, you're gonna give them at least this much.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I was in the committee when, when I didn't while was on there, oh, a chance meeting, that I got the reaction of the healing from them. Yeah.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: Effect.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Michelle, the one he used. Yeah. That did not, I could tell the body language was not, basically.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Yeah, that's the vibe I'm getting as well. So that's why I was trying to find a middle ground here.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: Yeah, so as a junior senator, I need some guidance here because again, this is all about the committee of jurisdiction. These are funds which are controlled by the agency of education subdivided to an organization that still falls under the purview of the education committee. What the is the appropriations committee getting involved for?

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Because they can. Well, it's also, but it's, it's allocation of state resources. So they do.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: From a resource that is meant to go to So

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: for an education after school? No less. Why don't we just go, let me rephrase it a little bit with that in mind. But the two fifty to 500 we don't know enough to really run that in my view. So we'll leave that to them and we'd prefer shall but many wants shall. Okay. And then if that's a real issue you can come back to us.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Okay. Well, you can count on me to to relay that message forcefully. Just

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: a quick question and maybe this is more so for Capitol Mayo. Yeah. So in my mind, I had previously thought that the Department of Libraries is going to submit its one application, and that's sort of the track record. You know, there's an honest trail of of where this money is coming from, going to, and what they're doing with it. And so, if there is no application, is there still some documentation of

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: where the Department of Libraries is dispersing She made that very point that they would do their annual and show where the money goes. Okay.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: That was the first question possible here this afternoon. It's like an audit trail or report distribution.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Figured there would be, but

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: since And I had lied there, and I can't remember her name, but she was like, yes, we do that anyway. So we provide that every year. Yeah, we don't pay it. Yeah, and it's

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Okay. So, do you wanna do a straw pull or Sure.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Wanna make sure that you're ready for that. Yeah. Okay. Well, because Yeah, what'd you say? Oh, I'm going snickered. Oh, Snickers said yes, sir.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: Said yes. No, it's not. It's a it's a it's a this is germane to this committee and I said they come bristling at all folks poke their fingers into That's just

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Can I quote that?

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Because I'm curious about appropriations.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: I'm kinda done with, you know yeah. Yeah. Yes. So shall

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: yes. With the shalls and the $2.50 to 500 or something.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Okay. That's okay. I will I will let you guys know what happened. Yes, ma'am. And, thank you for this partnership.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: Thanks for coming.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And for the Okay. Happy

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Okay, thanks,

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: Rick. Thank you, guys. I appreciate it.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah, we'll for what happens. Do have any more kids? No, I'm fine. Hopefully, can't be jealous. So we apologize to our witnesses. We're expecting to be able to, but I had crossover. This is life. Switching out to the real agenda for the day. We're looking for school board input on the draft map. It's a draft map that was posted, definitely yesterday. Well, every day, right? Yeah. Posted. Yeah. Looking And to finalize the the test, the portion for the SUs. We asked school board members to school boards to let us know whether they're in the right district or the think we're removed or give us any input. So, Yeah. Yes.

[Jordan (South Burlington School Board Member)]: Okay, great. So, my views are my own and do not represent the views of the South Burlington School Board or the South Burlington School District. I just wanna start by saying that. So, today, I wanna talk about how public schools can help heal the blue collar white collar divide in Vermont politics. I want to talk about how this blue collar white collar divide has reached a critical level in South Burlington and is already causing our schools to get worse. And I want to talk about how I believe your committee can help by requiring school districts to merge until they provide certain services instead of requiring like a certain number of students or something like that. So, first about the blue collar, white collar divide. The Republican Party has become the party of blue collar Americans. According to Pew Research, a more than 10 percentage point gap has developed over the last ten years. And this means that if you have a college degree or you don't have a college degree, we can predict what party you're basically. At the same time, Republicans have stopped believing in public schools. According to Pew Research, support for K-twelve public education has dropped by almost 10 percentage points among Republicans in the last five years. That's because in my opinion, public schools have failed people who want to join the blue collar world. Kids who are excited to learn about how how to be electricians, carpenters, and Hvac technicians don't get the same priority as kids who are excited about going to college. We do have excellent centers for technology here in the state of Vermont. But last year, South Burlington had a 50% acceptance rate to CTEs and a 0% acceptance rate for HVAC. That is four South Burlington kids raised their hand to study HVAC at a vulnerable time in their lives and were told the system didn't have a spot for them. At the same time, school newsletters celebrate the neuroscience club. We have 14 advanced placement classes in our district alone and dozens more in districts across Chittenden County. We have seven twenty five AP enrollments in our high school alone. School board is mostly by and for college educated parents. That's the white collar world. Yesterday, I called around the county to confirm what I already knew. Outside of a CTE, we have only one functioning woodshop in the entire county.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Is that CVU?

[Jordan (South Burlington School Board Member)]: It's Lyman Hunt.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Oh, I think CVU has that showing too. Anyway.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: Sure.

[Jordan (South Burlington School Board Member)]: And remember CTEs aren't even accessible until eleventh grade. You have to make it through eleven years of school before you get to a class dedicated to working with your hands. Then you have to be bused twenty minutes each way to Essex or Burlington. And even then there's only a 50% acceptance rate. Unsurprisingly, our schools have lost the trust of blue collar voters. They don't recognize what we're teaching and feel disrespected. In South Burlington, we can barely pass budgets. This year, our budget passed by 100 votes out of 4,000. This has been making our schools worse for years. We haven't been able to renovate or build. We're locked in a downward spiral. Luckily, the solution is inside school districts. This year, South Burlington is revising our mission and I hope that we will place the trades at the same priority as college. This will force our superintendent to allocate our own local budget toward the trades without depending on outside funding. Hopefully, we'll start to see foundational education around carpentry, electronics, and other vocational education in our middle school in the coming years. So what can your committee do about it? Think about redistricting as an opportunity to improve education for future blue collar workers. According to a September 2025 report by the Think Tank New America, redistricting can increase fairness and economic integration by double digits. Digits. They were thinking about racial fairness, but I think it also applies to blue collar and white collar fairness. So instead of requiring districts to be of a certain size, expectations of what all school districts must provide. It can't be a very long list or it'll be unworkable, but there's one key requirement that I think you should have. Require districts to provide foundational trade education directly in their schools, starting in middle school without needing kids and parents to fill out forms, deal with multi district bureaucracy, get on buses, and go out of the district. I'm not sure that Windhamski or South Burlington or Colchester would be able to do this alone. We might have to merge. But then we would have positive reasons to merge, not just saving money. And let me be clear, adopting a shared services model to serve blue collar interests while providing white collar interests directly in district schools is not fair. It's a cop out. No matter how well you manage your BOCES, if kids have to go through extra bureaucracy to get the education they need, that is not equal treatment. I suggest in closing that you require each district in Vermont to serve its blue collar and white collar constituents equally or merge with other districts until

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: they can do so.

[Jordan (South Burlington School Board Member)]: So, that is my that is my statement. Thank you for listening to me.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you. This committee is definitely thinking about CTE and the things you're talking about. You've articulated it slightly differently, which is helpful actually for us to hear. And, but it's definitely on the radar, although I'll say that much. Senator Hinsdale has worked on it and the whole committee I think is assumed, but we have

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: a question here to start with. I do, thank you. Thank you, Jordan. So I'm sure you're familiar with the CTE based maps that were circulating during the task force over last summer into the fall. From that perspective, does what you're saying, when you're advocating, does the CTE centric maps solve that problem or or not?

[Jordan (South Burlington School Board Member)]: So, you know, I went and I spoke to Bob Travers over at, Essex and I saw that he is running. It's a, it's an amazing, amazing program that any kid would be like lucky to get into, right? Yeah, I really viewed it as an elite educational institution. But what he and his his assistant and I talked about was we really have different problems. In South Burlington, a kid who is interested in, you know, in this kind of thing, they can't get access to that CTE until eleventh grade. And even once they get access to it, you know, we only have that acceptance rate. So I think that they're separate problems.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: Okay, thank you.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: How many, how many students in your district?

[Jordan (South Burlington School Board Member)]: 2,600.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: How many, you have one high school? Yeah. One high school and how many elementary?

[Jordan (South Burlington School Board Member)]: We have three elementary, one middle, one high school.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. So you're fairly sized this, Rick. Okay. And how many kids in the high school?

[Jordan (South Burlington School Board Member)]: I think it's like 500 or 600, but don't quote me on that. I'm not quite sure.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: It have to be higher if you

[Jordan (South Burlington School Board Member)]: Probably higher, yes.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Probably higher, yeah.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Just wanna make sure I'm fully clear. If you feel it is within the purview of the school district, you and your superintendent as the board to allow students to access CTE before eleventh grade. Like what is making it eleventh grade for your district?

[Jordan (South Burlington School Board Member)]: You know, that's a good question. One of the things I talked about with Bob when I visited Essex was apparently we did try some kind of a pilot program where the CTE sent an instructor to our school. But, and actually the instructor for that school happened to be with Bob at that time. But apparently that program didn't work out because, well, first of all, the reason they did that program was to get the CTE funds in order to support that. But then it didn't work out because there was just, I guess, too much bureaucracy, too much difficulty in getting the instructor from Essex over to South Burlington on a regular basis and all that stuff. And so that's where, you know, I think the question is a good one. Know, maybe the school board could say superintendent try to get kids into CTEs earlier, you still have the same problems that there's all this bureaucracy, they have to leave the district. And so that's where I was saying that the solution for us, if we can manage it at our size, is to try to do it in district with our own money.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And so you're suggesting that your district needs to get bigger in order for that to happen? So you have enough critical mass to support?

[Jordan (South Burlington School Board Member)]: You know, my my impression is that even though South Burlington looks like a scaled district, I think that there, I think that we're undersized personally. I think it's hard for us to attract. Well, that's a whole another topic, but I do think that if you look at the services that we provide to students and you say, okay, I want to serve both blue collar and white collar. And that means that we need to do X. I'm not sure we can do X at our current size. It's possible.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Have you been in discussions with neighboring districts about mergers? Not

[Jordan (South Burlington School Board Member)]: yet. I think our superintendents have connected, but not at the board level.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. Okay. So what's the other question?

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Well, for you, didn't we have a a bill that said we're gonna get exposure for kids over the month of school order, but they're actually gonna get going to CTE.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It's it's mentioned in in 03/13. Right. Yeah.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So but at this point, it's aspirational. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah. They don't have enough money to even get the kids a time

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: to go up. They're fine.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: It's plain for fun.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you. That was thoughtful testimony. And I thank you. The point you've made about kind of being in scale, but still not quite big enough is an interesting point for us to hear. So you're welcome to stay on, of course, and listen while we go through it, you may have other things you have to do, but thank you very much for taking the time to leave with us.

[Jordan (South Burlington School Board Member)]: Thank you very much for your service.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Chris, for me? Yes. For For me. Yes.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: Your own is Irish. Thank

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: you. Thanks for taking the time to hear from me today. I just wanted to mention before I launch into what I was gonna talk about is that I was a teacher at Memorial Union High School in Hyde Park for thirty years. And that's a high school that served maybe, started out 800 kids in high school, now down to about 600. But what they did there was they had a very popular pre check program for ninth graders. And the kids would basically have their entire curriculum in a room and they would have, I think English had done at one point, but the entire room was half the size of a gym. And in that program, they were able to get into a wide range of shop skills, if you will, trade skills, but they'd also had introductions to the different career center programs that were next door in the big CTE. So I think some high schools have realized that students are interested in that early on and have made resources available to get them into it earlier.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah, were. I mean, our real goal, I think, was to have that happen in seventh, eighth grade.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: Yes. Yeah. And we had at one point a I taught science and they had a hands on physics science course from ninth graders where they would get their science credits by figuring out electricity, HVAC, etcetera. So it was just great. I can do math while I'm doing this with my hands, which is awesome. Yep, I'm a math grader. Yeah, I agree. Mean, I just, what this gentleman talked about is real because when I was teaching eight or ten years ago, some of the riots kids in my advanced biology class would come in and say, I'm going to the tech center next year. I said, Why? You go to college. Yeah, but I'm not gonna pay for it. I can't pay for it. And you talk to the parents to say, Our son is right, he's motivated, he wants to do something with his life and he can't wait through four years of college. So I think maybe it was just the SU and the district that he's in, but it was very much of a, My son wants to do well in school so that he can do something valuable, and he sees being an electrical engineer very valuable to me. Anyway, sorry, I was a teacher of 1,000

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: He had done a whole woodshop. I just Yeah. Saw it.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We saw it and we saw the home building. But I want more woodshop. I have woodshop.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: The other thing that most classroom teachers will tell you is that having a block during the day where the kids can do hands on work is hugely beneficial towards their focus, maybe less active classroom. Just don't miss on this, Mr. Toreme. Okay, now we're gonna talk about DNA? Okay, maybe I'll make a model of that. Anyway, thanks for taking the time today. My name is Chris Stormy. I'm a resident of Cabot. I've lived there full time since 1989 with my wife, Mary Ann. Mentioning she's a mentoring person. I also have three graduated sons who went to school at Cabot School. It's a pre K through 12 school. And I've been on the school board since 2004. And I come here first, I guess, with a message, as both a school board member and a teacher, I know that your goal in this committee is to try and make education better for kids and also hopefully less expensive. And obviously, I'm familiar with that challenge. So I wanted to talk today to you about two parts of the work you're doing. One is the map that you've been working on. The second one is the, I think it's called governance modernization document. And so I wanted to touch first on the map. I want to let you know in Cabot, we appreciate the revision that was done this week that places Cabot School District in large SU in the Caledonia area. For the past five years, my school district has been supported very well by the Caledonia Central SU. That's a SU including Danville, and Cal Cola. And so what we've gotten out of that SU arrangement is that we have a great deal of support with administration, but we're also doing a good bit of colleagueship and collegiality around things like electric courses for kids, sports. We don't necessarily have kids to feel a soccer team will pull up another high school, but also having things like professional development, etcetera. And to that end, last summer, our school board asked the legislature's redistricting task force that if they come up with a map during their work that would include in large SUs, we would like to be included in the one to Caledonia. So that's where we're coming from. We did that for two reasons. And probably you've heard that from other schools, not only for the support and the collaboration that an SU makes possible, but it also allows schools like ours to continue to be an independent school district and not merged. And we feel like we're getting some benefits from the SU, but another big benefit is as a town, we can continue to have what we feel like is the greatest amount of control over how our school operates and about its future. So I just wanted to mention that. Thank you again for that, which I think is proper placement for Catalyst. Second thing I wanna mention is just this modernization document, which is maybe 30 pages long or so that I also look at. I have some concerns about one part of it. I wanna start with the parts that

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I think are really beneficial. What modernization document is 30 It

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: is called the Governance Modernization Document. Altered by who? Believe you folks.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: 30 pages.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Is it our bill? Is that what it's called?

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Oh, you're talking about the bill. Are you talking about the narrative that went with

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: It's 30 pages and the first 10 pages are about enlarging SUs, and there's a section about for the first year the districts are encouraged to seek voluntary mergers, and then two years later the districts are-

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Gotta get a number then.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: Are we on the same document? No, we got you. All right, okay, cool. So I guess the first question is, are you the officers of that or not?

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yes. Yeah,

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: okay. I got you.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm in the right room. So

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: first off, I think as a small school board chair, two things that I think are really valuable that I saw in that plan. One is the ability to make larger SUs. I think the support for both funding and also the democratic process to do that, I think it'd be really helpful for to achieve some economies of scale and some efficiency and some savings. The other thing that I saw in that document that I think is useful is encouraging school districts to voluntarily seek out other districts that they might be able to be a good fit with and merge with. The thing that I think I have the most concern about, which I hope maybe you'll reconsider is the section that says, after a couple of years or even after, I think after a couple of years of allowing school districts to voluntarily consider merging, the Secretary of the Agency of Education has the right to come in and say, in your words, I think you're trying to get the number of districts down from 100 something to 50 something. And so, that part of the language that says, in order to reduce the number of districts by half, the AOE can come in and force merge districts to get there. I have several concerns about that and I guess I'd put them under three categories. The first category would be, does it actually achieve the goals that we're seeking to achieve, I. E. Saving money and improving things for kids. I know that the legislative task force spent four months or so last year going around the state, interviewing folks, having hearings, doing their own research. They got over a thousand pieces of public comment. And that task force reached the conclusion that just by making larger districts did not necessarily achieve either of those goals, either saving money or improving things for kids. They also found out that the whole process that we witnessed in Act 46 was if you stop everything and say, the next couple of years you're gonna work with this district to merge even though you don't want to. That basically takes energy and time away from maybe more productive efforts in the SU or school district to get better. Last concern under maybe not doing much is that the task force found out that at least a couple of the things that are the big cost drivers currently in education, that is health insurance and special education, wouldn't really be impacted by making larger districts in their view. The second thing I had a concern about was that forced merging districts might inevitably or might eventually have some big impacts on communities in Vermont. Because of the current numbers that we have in our schools, obviously there's room in schools for more kids. So if you force merge say three smaller districts into one, before too long, budget seats will come along and the single board that is governing those three schools will have a hard discussion about, we have rising costs, what are we gonna do to make a budget that the community can support? So that's where the foundation form was supposed to Okay, I'll finish up this one up. One of the things that can happen in that discussion is that those that single board can say, in order to make things work this year, we are going to close either part or all of the given community schools because we have room for you over here. And so my concern about that, if that happens, is that it may in fact solve the problem for that new district in a given year. It'll make their budget more tolerable to voters. But my concern is what happens to the towns that lose their elementary schools? I know in this state we've had lots of discussion, lots of interest in how do we keep Vermonters in this state? How do we attract young families, working families from elsewhere to come to Vermont? My contention is that if you are cutting the number of school districts from 115 to 57, whatever the math is, if you lose in that process, which you might, two or three dozen community schools, what does that do to the attractiveness of those communities to these young families who are trying to get here? That's a concern I have. I wanna zero back in on my town because I've lived there since 1989 and that I'm familiar with our trajectory, if you will. I think I made a graphic that might make people understand where we're at. It's a large ridge with a valley on either side. That's an enrollment graph. And so in 1989, or 1983, when we first moved there for a short time, the numbers were,

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: where is that? Back to

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: the right page. In 1983, the enrollment was 180 kids at Cabinet School. And by the turn of the millennium, it was up to about two fifty. And now we're down about 160. Cabin's enrollment curve has followed states. We've lost about 25% of our kids in the last two decades. But I don't think that in itself is a reason enough to start consolidating schools that are often focal point of their That might result in losing a number of schools that are now focal point of their communities. I wanna mention, I guess on that same line, one specific example from our town. The general consensus or one of the arguments for emerging schools is that you will somehow have lesser cost. And over the hill from where I live is the town of Callis. Callis is part of the Washington Central Unified Union School District. It's commonly known as U32, that's their high school. Union thirty two, a high school and middle school and five elementary schools now since maybe ten years ago, have a single merged district with one board. That board is in charge of the budget. That board is also in charge of figuring out how many schools continue to run-in that district. This past year, their U32 district's budget, elementary schools, middle school, high school is about $42,000,000 The cost per long term weighted average daily membership pupil, the new calculation, their spending for pupil in that model was about $16,000 And the impact on taxes for them was in the neighborhood of, I think the average across the five towns was a little under $2 for per $100 worth of assessed homestead. We encab it around this side of that ridge. We have 160 kids. We are a school district. We are unmerged. And we have very vigorous debates every year at our board level and also at the town meeting about how much we're gonna spend. Our spending for pupil this year is about $2,000 below the merged district to our west. We have about $14,000 spending per pupil. And our budget was just passed suggested that we would probably have taxes in the neighborhood of 1.3 per $100 worth of assessed value. So in conclusion, I've seen firsthand in my town the very positive impact that a strong dynamic school can have in a small community. As you work this spring to fashion a plan that can both limit costs and improve things for kids, I'd ask you to keep in mind the impact of that plan on the vitality of small communities like Abbott's. With that in mind, I strongly suggest that your committee should revise your draft in two important ways. One is, I think you should definitely include a piece in there about the value of shared service structures like OCEs. I think they've shown to realize savings in other states. And I think it would be important to include that in any kind of plan you have. The other thing I would say is to think consider eliminating the forced merger by the state language that's there now. And instead support the efforts of schools like ours to explore voluntary mergers or other ways that they can improve opportunities for the kids, including for instance, in our case, maybe a regional high school. But doing that, but at the same time allowing small independent proud districts like ours to continue to sustain and improve our hometown schools. And in so doing, sustain and improve the communities that they're part of. So that's what I have for you today. Thanks for listening. Appreciate any comments or questions you might have.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: One clarifying question and one bigger question. Sure. Maybe you said this. You don't operate a high school?

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: We do operate a high It's a pre K through film school.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. Yes. Oh, the whole, okay. My favorite question is something I ask my school boards in my district.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Sure.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Are you out promoting housing projects and supporting housing projects in your community? Because all I hear when I hear this is, you know, the extremely high cost of living across the state and that your teachers and your families have nowhere to live. I do think that's contributing to the loss of families and students in our schools.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: I think you're right. I think to answer your question, we as a town have, are in a, basically headwaters of Nooski River, it's a fairly narrow valley. There

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: is

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: a good deal of hay land or farmland that could tap for housing. And in the last couple of years, our select board has started to look at that more. Another So I think the answer is yes. The other part of the situation in our town is that this happens to be a town that has, I think, one of the higher rates of homeschooling in Washington County. And so there is housing and there are people living there with kids, but not all of them are going to local public school. And so I think our challenge is to make sure that we can provide enough housing for families that would wanna come in. That's an ongoing challenge, I guess.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: What's the nearest other high school? What high school is nearest to you?

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: Trinfield High School, which is for the kids of Plainfield and Marshfield, field is about eight or 10 miles to our west, and Danville High School is about the same distance to the east on the other side of Joe's Bond.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And what's their population? Their population is each

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: of them are about twice the size by district and also by high school as ours. And so, were three pre K through 12 districts in the same SU. We have about 160, 170 students pre K through 12. Each of those districts, Shenfield and Danville, have about doubled that.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Have you talked about where it

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: would make sense for a regional

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: high school to make sense?

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: We have had those conversations for years. I think the thought is that were we to end up in the same SU as Danville, it could be possible to have those discussions again. Think at this point, the Act 46 discussion in each of those schools was vigorous and thoughtful. I think what's happened in the ten years since 1946 is each of our schools has lost students at probably the same rate as the rest of the state has. So now it's a different conversation. We're more challenged than we were a decade ago to have programs and the economies of scale that we would like.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: Yes, go ahead. So I'm here, I heard what

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: you said. Sure. I'm thinking that I'm hearing the same thing. I've been hearing through this whole process. We're into a whole biennium. Just don't wanna do anything different. What do you recommend we do?

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: Sure. I guess I'll go back to the voluntary merger suggestion. Let's say we support that. Okay. I think that the difference between now and I-forty six in my part of the state is that there is a much higher perception that we need to increase the opportunities for older students.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Have you done anything about long term merger as a school board? We have not. Okay, you could be. You could be. There's nothing says you can't be doing that right now, anticipation. Some point we gotta stop taking testimony and we have to do something. Because nobody's gonna, there could be half the people aren't gonna be happy with Some what we will. So then we're gonna go through this whole process again. Yeah. I'm just, I'm not allowed. And I'm 74 years old and I've had two more years to waste in my life. And I'm not saying that it's a waste. I'm just saying that we haven't done it could have been done.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: Think could have come

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: up with a plan in the first two months of the last session, and we did.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: I think I'll answer that two ways. One is that I think that there is number one more of an appetite to have those discussions than there was even four or five years ago. And number two, I think when we brought that out among the school boards of those three somewhat neighboring pre K through 12 schools in the last several years, We started to do that on a limited basis, sharing elective classes and sharing sports. And I think the question was, is it time to have a regional high school with our three high schools, just like a Hawaii unit is? And in that mix was, I think two of the schools were very much in favor of it. Third one being a neighbor of St. John's Creek Academy was much less interested for reasons having to do with other choices in their neighborhood. The other question when this current round of school reform came in is, will the state even allow us to make a year ago It is a year ago when the secretary of the agency came out and said, we're looking for, I think, high schools with at least 3,000 students. That was a little bit of a I guess maybe a high school of 500 is not gonna cut it with the legislature. And so what I'll say is that I think the interest in doing that is much higher than it was several years ago. And I think if as small school boards like mine, small high school like mine can get a sense from the legislature what is gonna be allowed, I think we'll have a much better saying, yes, it is worth sitting down and figuring that out. I I will say in our area, one of the driving benefits of having a small high school, and I'm testimony to that, had three boys that enjoyed the heck out of high school because it was small enough to be able to make any team they wanted to be on, but large enough to allow those teams to be there, to get that sweet spot. That sweet spot is no longer as sweet as it used to be. Okay, we have to have kids go to another town to play a soccer team. So one of the reasons that we as a small school said, maybe if we just pull out three high schools together, it would be a good number, is that you would potentially have within 10 miles, you could get yourself down to the soccer field for practice. On the other hand, if you closed and your kids went to the academy or at the state major, going to a high school of 5,000 kids, there's many less kids in our three high schools who would play soccer or anything else. I know even though they're stretch from JV teams. So the sweet spot for small high schools is that we, I think, pushed back for a long time on merging because we said, we have what we want. We have sports teams, we have good teachers, we have electives. And that's, I think, changed radically for at least more than a few high schools in the last decade. So, I think the appetite is much stronger. And I think if we were to come out of this legislative session, hearing from the legislature saying, we'll entertain high schools of 500 or 600 students as long as you can show us that they work. But I think that to answer your question, sir, I think there was a sort of a big time pause a year ago when we heard from the state about their Niagara school

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: requirement, if you will.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: And I didn't mean to be negative about that, but I'm saying is that, you know, as we build this plan, we have to assume once we hit that sweet spot that we're gonna get, our declining population, student population is gonna start to increase again. Yeah. We're gonna have to deal with that at some

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: point. So In

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: a perfect world, build the design plan that takes all that into consideration, but education quality is the standard we're really Yeah.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: But I think that a lot of the folks that I talk with have said, We'd love to have a school closer at home so our kids could participate more extra crinker, we get there for open house, we get those for concerts. So I think the extent that the legislature would allow small regional high schools would, I think, not only make it more attractive to school boards and the communities that are here, but also might make it more attractive to people who are considering moving to Lower Cabin or West Anvil or what have you.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: It's a pleasure over here, but let me just ask you, how far are you from the Academy?

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: We are probably 25 miles. The Anvil is 10 miles, and so we're probably having our drive work from where I live in Cabin. Okay. And forty minutes from that industry. Okay, Senator DeFernan? Go ahead. So it's a

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: double edged sword what you just said about having a small school that that brings the people in. And then, but your taxes are getting so high they can't afford to live there, to come there in the first place. So it's

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: a double edged sword right now.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: It's finding just what you said, that sweet spot. Okay. However, the job of this committee and the rest of Vermont is saying, know, want your taxes to go down and you want good education and you want small schools, the three of them are not gonna work.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: Okay. I've heard that

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: three legged stool. It is a good analogy. Yeah. And it's the truth and our committee is tasked with what are you gonna do? And every small school comes in and says, don't, we're not gonna close any schools. What's gonna happen is we want the communities to decide. Sure. And you're not wanting to do it. And it's like, well, if you're not wanting to do it, we're gonna give criteria to say, if it doesn't meet this and this, then more than likely that's gonna happen to your school. I believe that's the most fairest, the fair way to do it for Florida State. We don't wanna do it. Yeah. Don't wanna do it at all if we keep schools just the

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: way they are? Well, I guess I'll just repeat to what I said to your colleague a minute ago. Think the appetite is much larger than it used to be for making that voluntary merger at least at some level. I wanna just return to the tax thing. I was reading in one of the articles in the last month or so that in the last five years, the property taxes across the state have gone up by 40%. Wow, excuse me. And we have, I guess I will say, even though it's a challenge for school board members, we have had over the past six or seven years, for a while there was a penalty threshold, which was very well known in our community. And as a result of that, we were, I think as a school, fairly frugal in our increases. And over that five year period, the Cabinet School, I mentioned a 1.3 versus $2 the next town over, the Bunion School. We went up by about 18% over five years, which is 3% a year. So I think the challenge more in our community is not so much the high cost of property taxes, but housing for people to come in and live there and attend school. And also, frankly, chief of the school is strong enough to make sure it attracts folks. Oh, it's a beautiful spot. Yeah. So I think to answer your question about the regional high school,

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: My Regional high schools are so far down the line that we have to get this under control. Sure.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: Or we have enough money to eat. Okay. Well, let's just say in this situation that three high schools like ours, Danville, Chittenden and Cabot decided, they might or they might not, but I think the discussion is probably gonna happen if they're allowed to. What does it look like if we increase our opportunities by coming together as a high school union school district with the facilities we have and figure out how that can

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: work to improve opportunity. I

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: don't think anybody wants to wait for construction, although that would be great to have this. We need something quicker than that,

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: both for the people who

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: are here and the people who are thinking of moving here.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: So I'll get back to my one district so you guys can do all the stuff you need to do to make it happen, but that's another topic. Thank

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: you. Sure. Thanks.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: Thanks. Did you have any

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: any chat with Just a good chat.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: Thank you.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: You too. Mark, go ahead, Steve.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Oh, I didn't know you Uh-huh. You you do double duty.

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: I do venue duty. You're one of the acts I've had. I've noticed.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: We're your survivor.

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: Like, fine rich.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: So

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: today, for the record, my name is Mark Haney, and I'm the chair of the Addison Northwest School District. So forget that I'm not wearing my thing. I'm not asking right now. Thank you for the opportunity to testify regarding Senator Bongartz proposed redistricting math broader direction of Vermont's education government reform. After these comments from the perspective of a local school board chair charged with balancing educational quality, fiscal responsibility, and community trust. While I appreciate the effort to move this conversation forward, I ask significant concerns that the current proposal does not meaningfully improve upon a system that seeks to be replaced. At its core, the proposed redistricting map appears to preserve rather than transform Vermont's existing supervisor's unique governance framework. This raises fundamental concern that the goal of redistricting is to simplify governance, prove accountability, create more coherent systems of decision making, it's unclear how maintaining layered governance structures achieves this outcome. Supervisor's unions have historically served purpose, particularly in supporting smaller districts. However, they have contributed to fragmentation, reduced accountability, and inefficiencies in decision making, a reform effort that largely replies these structures risks reinforcing the very challenges that policymakers have long sought to address. If Vermont is to undertake significant structural change, it should result in clearer lines of authority, more direct accountability to voters, and a governance model that is easier, not harder, for communities to understand. Second major concern is the absence of meaningful restructuring regarding the role and regulation of independent schools within Vermont's Cultivative Education System. Vermont's long standing tuition model, while rooted in history, local choice operates within a regulatory framework that differs significantly from that which is required in local schools. Any comprehensive reform efforts should take a hard look at these differences, particularly in the areas of accountability, transparency, financial oversight. Current proposal does not seem to address these disparities in a substantial way without reexamining how independent schools are integrated into the public funded system, state risks perpetuating inequalities and inconsistencies that complicate both governance and business stewardship. Third, one of the primary drivers behind governance reform is the expectation of improved efficiency and cost containment. However, it is not evident that this proposed work district map would generate meaningful savings compared to the current system. It its distinct structures, suggesting that administrative costs, staffing configurations, and service delivery models would remain largely unchanged. Without clear mechanisms for consolidation, shared service expansion, or structural streamlining, it is difficult to identify where significant savings would be realized. In the absence of demonstrated physical benefits, the proposal risks imposing a disruption of change without delivering financial relief that Vermont taxpayers and communities are seeking. Most importantly, this proposal does not really articulate how it would improve educational outcomes for Vermont's students. Governance reforms should ultimately be judged by its impact on students, stronger academic outcomes, expanded opportunities, improved equity, and better support systems. Yet the current framework appears to focus primarily on structural realignment rather than educational advancement. It's unclear that the proposed configuration would enhance curriculum offerings, improve student achievement, or address for persistent challenges such as declining enrollment, staffing shortages, or disparities disparities in access to programs. If states undertake significant reorganization, it must be driven by a clear calling vision for how students will benefit, not simply by changing governance boundaries. Vermont has an opportunity to thoroughly reconsider how this education is organized and delivered. That work is both necessary and urgent. However, a meaningful reform requires that more than redrawing lines on a map, it requires a clear departure of structures that have proven inefficient, a willingness to address longstanding inconsistencies in the system, and a focus on measured improvements for students. As currently presented, this proposal raises more questions than answers. I respectfully urge this committee to continue its work with focus on simplifying governance, strengthening accountability, ensuring consistent oversight across all public funded schools, identifying and delivering tangible cost savings, centering student outcomes is the primary measure of success. At different times.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So did that testimony have anything to do with your school? Because that was BSBA testimony.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: No, that was me.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: No, that was BSBA. Well, that It was sounded echoed. So I'm just curious. I'm curious about what you hear as chair of your court.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yep.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: To us about your school, your district district.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: So I can

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: go over some of the questions that have been raised the last couple days. We have, so I was with an SU at Addison Northwest, was the Supervisory Union. At forty six, we did merge, came as a Supervisory District. That was beneficial to us, but it was hard, but it wasn't as hard as some. We already had a shared master agreement with teachers and staff, so we really didn't have to find that. That had been done earlier. Since that time, we closed one of our elementary schools. So we have two elementary schools. We now have a true middle school behind a middle high school, and now we have a six, seven, eight.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: Where is that? Within the high school,

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: but it's Within, and that is where? In Perjens. In Perjens, okay.

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: So my towns are Berresburg, Perjens, Panton, Waltham, and Addison. We closed the Addison Central Elementary School, mostly because it's just too small.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So are you in the gray area or the We're in the gray area. Okay. So so so this I

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: don't think it's lower. My or or or

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So as it relates to where you are, in the gray area, so you're an SP.

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: For both yours and Peter's maps, we are going to probably be the Addison County District. They both of them kind of creates this So you're very Montevi and and

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So you're happy with your district and its placement on the map?

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: I yes.

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: I mean, I realize I mean, it's probably make my superintendent unhappy. I realize that we are too small. We have budgeting problems because we have 800 kids pre k through high school. We have Mount Abe just a few miles away. We have Middlebury just a few miles away. CBU is not that far away. So there are options. We have tried to merge beyond the last time we did. We went through a merger study and then a vote to merge Mount A and as Northwest a few years ago, and it went down in blames for different reasons on both sides. But I think that's what's just stated now. Times have changed. We might be more interested in doing something because both of them are in problems, but we do already share a lot. We share sports teams. We share all of our nutrition. So we have one nutrition director for both of those schools. We buy and both share the same menus. We realigned our times for our classes and our teachers' days so that we can share classes. When it took back last year, but because of scheduling, it didn't happen, but we have set it up so that if students want to take French because we don't offer French, but they do, they can go over and take French, but they would need to be signed up and they could give us two or three classes. You could just go over to one class because of transportation issues. We're doing our best to try and figure out how can we consolidate without actually merging until we need to merge towards sharing as many resources as we can and sharing as much as we can within the capacity that we have.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So so you do realize that the foundation formula does save money because it has a fixed number and then a fixed multiplier. So when I hear people say it doesn't save money, no limits would save money, I go, well wait a minute, financial formula has a starting point and then has a fixed multiplier that definitely lowers the rate of increase. How does that won't save money part?

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: My concern is more in how districts are being, like a merger itself, so still gonna save money. I was talking about the foundation part, I was talking about the past.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So the theory of this, at the discretion, the theory is that by shrinking the number of districts, the foundation formula that does fit better, work better, as districts get larger, and so if I shrink the number of districts, we're gonna tend to have larger districts, and try to help them out to get their birth on their own and then and then also that's the theory under that and if the foundation of the bloodline is coming, it does, just curious if you're almost saying the same thing. You're almost saying they do need larger districts or to get to the

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: I think based on the fact, we have declining enrollment. Yes. We have fewer students. We can't really populate the same number of buildings. It's inevitable. It just becomes a matter of absence.

[Jordan (South Burlington School Board Member)]: I don't want

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: see any leaves or easy, or flat, or there's no mountains in between us, there's no major rivers, or pretty close together, and we still could merge under voluntary circumstances. There were no carrots and sticks, so maybe if there was something that way, it would have been a little easier for us to do it. But you get into some of the other regions, it becomes a lot more difficult for transportation issues, for things like that type, and do not have.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: Yeah. Okay.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Yes. So how many municipalities are you talking about?

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: For me or for our region. For your region. I have

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: five. Okay. You guys started anything at all? You know, my district, we have we got towns that are in a school district actually got the other dissertation and put a ballot put it on the ballot on how meeting date to close a school and merge.

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: Right. We did not.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Okay. So you've done that.

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: We have closed a school. Pass? Did We did not pass our that's what I was saying is that we we merged under 46, so it was three elementary schools had their were their own districts and then high school and then the SU. That all became one district and became one. Two years later, we closed one of the elementary schools. So we worked on two elementary schools and high schools. We have three buildings. A few years ago, we had a study committee to try and merge with Mount Abe School District. Spent a year getting all of that together, put it to the voters. Both communities, both districts said no. Mount Abe didn't want to incur as Northwest debt as we spent a lot of money to keep our buildings in top shape. We the Addison Northwest voters weren't happy about being a minority group at the table because we were worried they're gonna take all of our tax money and fix their buildings if they haven't been able to get bonds for it. There was there was but we that was a number of years ago, and both sides have gotten even smaller as a sudden. We even without the merger, though, we share with Maude all the time. We have a lot of work together so that we're trying to contain costs as much as we can without actually formally merging. But I meet with all five board chairs in my area. So the a Blankton, Hanover Career Center, Addison Central, and then us. So, we meet, I talk with the chair of CDU on a regular basis to try and figure out how we might be able to do something. So, the talk is there, and we we know we have to do something. We just have to kinda figure out what. And now with all of this going on, no one's really sure about making a step until we know that that step would actually be something that would have to be undone because something else happened.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: So where would that be in the stick?

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: Think you guys have to be a parent and a silk.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So so as it relates to your district, is your placement on the map in the gray area consistent with your desire. Are you happy with your placement?

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: I think that makes a lot of sense. We're not, we are not interested in an Etsy structure. Okay. So being there, we do know that, you know, your idea of voluntary mergers aligns with what we've been talking about informally. Okay. I'm just worried about and it's not just in here, it's the entire discussion is that we're all talking about money and lines and we're losing well, how is this actually gonna impact the kid in this classroom? Might impact somebody's property tax, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's better education, and that's the whole point of all this work. So I tell all of my boards and all my parents, like, we're not doing something for kids, then there's not really a reason for us to be here.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Try to think lot about what we're doing for the kids. Think everybody does. And, you know, right, well, from our conversation with mister Tormia, I've been thinking about something, which is, you know, regional high schools are economic engines in and of themselves. They we're we're in a we're trying to get out of a death spiral. Right? Like, I'm not just thinking about kids. I'm thinking about how families cannot survive in Vermont. And so the elementary schools become the canary in the coal mine because as more people don't have kids or can't move into the area, you're starting with your elementary schools are hemorrhaging and you have maybe some large groups in the high school that are moving on. And as there are less and less opportunities or there's not this sort of positive feedback loop in your high schools, you're you don't have something that attracts people that says, wow. There's a really excellent high school that they're going to go to where they can choose any athletic program, anything they want.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Right.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I like, I I really I you know, we generally agree on a lot of things. I just really push back on this notion that, you know, we're we're thinking about kids by holding onto buildings because there's fewer and fewer kids in those buildings, and that impacts them. And it especially impacts them middle and then absolutely high school.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: I I went to high school

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: 500 giggles. Was that great? No. But I do not want my kids to go to a high school where you can't put a sports team together.

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: And I'm not saying that I I'm not a favorite of tight schools. We closed one of our small school we had, and it was a big push back for that for that very reason. But it was But you're not gonna

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: get more elementary school kids just by having an elementary school. Like, it's just not gonna happen. It's housing. It's housing and a regional high school that gives people opportunities to stay

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: in their community. With Addison closing, it's been a fairly smooth have you come have you heard a lot from Addison for I

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: think we still so the the main pushback was from us residents who did not have kids in the school. We're like, we spent, I went there, my kids went there, we spent a lot of money there, I helped plant that garden. Right. Every parent that I know who had a kid in the school at that time was ecstatic that their kid was now going to the Virginia's Elementary School where they could have music and art every day where they had

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: See, you need to hear more of that.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: They have.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: Because it was no different when they started closing one

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: They should be museums. That doesn't help you get more kids.

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: Well, I'm

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: off topic. I'm like

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: But no.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: I I say I don't

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: think we're on I I don't know why I said that makes you think that we're offset because I'm

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, that we're not thinking about kids. No.

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: I just you know, it gets lost. I feel like it gets lost when we start talking more and more about property taxes or we're talking about fines on a map or talking about SU versus SD. Just the idea of, and how are any of those things actually gonna impact the kid in math labs? And maybe it does. It's just so it gets lost in the the conversation. I just wanted to redirect this. At the end of the day, all of this has to somehow touch back to

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I think what trying to do is get to the what some proved level of efficiency within the realities of the Vermont landscape and the way that things actually look for 90 plus. I've tried to solve every issue where to the if we think that a 119 districts is too many for a state with about 83,000 kids, we're trying to have that issue.

[Mark Haney (Chair, Addison Northwest School District)]: And that is an important thing

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: to That will help with governance, that will help provide more opportunity and to extent the that the foundation formula is coming online will help the foundation formula. It'll be a better fit for the foundation. That's the theory. That's what we're looking at. And the theory is that that and the hope is that that actually both reduces the rate of increase in property taxes and improves education.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: That's what we should inform. So I

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: get a point that I had a friend, his daughter, came to visit from Missouri. And, you know, of course, her parents are divorced, and she got mad at mom. She went out and she's a sophomore and started looking into the educational opportunities. That was wild that a sophomore would do that, but she did, and she goes, There's no opportunities here for Mabel Marner.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I know.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: And it was amazing that she said that. She came from a school of 2,000. But she goes, you know, AP courses to our class, she just don't have it. And then she went on saying, what I saw was kind of learning curriculum in eleventh and twelfth, I'd already learned a ninth and tenth in surgery. And it's like, that's an eye opener so that we're not doing our students, our children justice with our schools. We have to defend. And if it means getting more in classrooms so it helps, or bigger schools so they have more interaction, I think it's important. But then we have Cabin. It's like, hey, we've always been this way. And it's, we're gonna find it, we gotta find it. It's our job, unfortunately.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you, we have one more witness who's been waiting for a while.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: Am I standing between you and going home? Hey.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: You can take your phone.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: No. No.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: It's fine. It's very interesting to listen to everybody's different perspectives. So good afternoon, senators. For the record, my name is Debbie Stingeiser, and I know some of you already. I am a school board member who has served on a district board within the Rutland Northeast Supervisory Union for about eight years. I thank you for this opportunity to provide feedback on the redistricting math that your committee is considering. I am here to speak specifically to the governance implications of your proposed redistricting math. I will leave the discussion of operations to superintendents who are better positioned to speak to those matters. My focus will be on governance, and it is from that perspective that I ask you to consider what I have observed firsthand. First I want to say

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Just that so we know, are you talking generally or are you talking about your district and the impact

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: I'm gonna be talking about, I'm using my district as an illustrative example. So

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: particularly interested in knowing about where your district is in the background, whether the boundaries make sense for you, for your district.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: Okay, I'm happy to ask, answer, respond to that question I do wanna talk about things that I'm seeing happening right now in our SU. So first I wanna say that I do support all six goals in the legislation that accompanies the map. However, for today, I'd like to focus my testimony on goal number one, improving governance efficiency, and goal number two, enabling higher quality educational delivery. I believe that the way we accomplish these two goals is by moving our state away from the Supervisory Union model and toward the Supervisory District model. I believe this change would result in more efficient, more equitable, and more responsive governance for Vermont students, families, and communities, and here's why. The first problem with Supervisory Union governance is budgeting. I would like to give you a current example to illustrate one of the problems with the SCU model that is happening right now at Rutland Northeast Supervisory Union, which is composed of two unified union school districts, Barstow and Otter Valley. This year, the FY '27 Barstow Unified Union School District budget passed when voters went to the polls on town meeting day. Unfortunately, however, the Otter Valley Unified Union School District budget failed. In a supervisory union structure, when one district's budget fails, that board's options are severely limited. Because Barstow voters had already officially adopted the shared budget, includes the central office budget, Otter Valley's Board had no ability to revisit or reduce any central office expenses, because those figures were already locked in. Otter Valley's board was therefore limited to making cuts only within their own district budget, and that is precisely what happened earlier this week. In order to reduce costs, their board eliminated student facing positions, a global language teacher and a portion of an academic coach. These are direct cuts to student programming. Students in Otter Valley School District will bear the consequences of a governance structure that tied their board's hands. So, and as an aside, and I say this not rhetorically, but genuinely, I find it hard to reconcile our obligation to prepare students for citizenship in a global society with a governance structure that makes a global language teacher one of the first casualties of a failed budget. This is not a hypothetical situation, it is happening right now in our SU during this budget cycle. In a supervisory district, this situation would be handled differently. All voters across all member towns vote on a single unified budget, and that budget either passes or fails as a whole. If it fails, the board reconvenes to deliberate across the whole budget, including central office costs, and returns to voters with a revised proposal. No single community is left bearing the burden of cuts alone and no board is prevented from considering the full picture. Can I pause you right there just for a second? Sure. How many students were enrolled in the global language course? See, that's not my district, so I'm not that familiar.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: Okay, it'd be good to know, because if they only had three or four students, then

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: And I can get you that information

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: for That'd great, thank you. Sorry for interrupting.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: No, that's fine, it's a very good question. So there's a second government's concern with the Supervisory Union model that I want to share and that is superintendent capacities. In an SU, a superintendent is required to attend multiple district board meetings presenting similar reports, sharing the same information, and fulfilling the same functions repeatedly across separate boards. I am not a big proponent of repeating the same task multiple times when once will do. This is an inefficient use of one of our most valuable educational resources, our superintendents. While a superintendent must attend to governance, they are first and foremost the CEO of their district. They're responsible for a wide range of daily operational demands, and when that superintendent is preparing for and attending multiple board meetings each month, governments begins to cannibalize the time that should be spent on operations, including the instructional leadership that directly benefits our students. A superintendent operating within a supervisory district attends fewer board meetings and has greater capacity to service an instructional leader, and that is where we want our educational leaders spending their time. A district structure therefore makes that possible in a way that a supervisory union does not. Now I'm aware that one argument made for retaining supervisory unions is the continuation of school choice, that is paying tuition on the student's behalf to attend a school of their choosing, and I want to address this issue directly. I am not opposed to school choice. However, I am concerned about how it is currently functioning, and protecting school choice in its current form should not come at the cost of better, more efficient governance. As chair of the Barstow School Board, I watched a trend emerge in our district. Over the course of five years, we paid 122 school tuitions to independent schools, and only half were for students who graduated from Barstow's eighth grade. Independent schools enrollment among our high school students climbs from 16% in fiscal year twenty one to 35% in fiscal year twenty five. At one independent school alone, Killington Mountain School, we tuition 13 students in a single year, 10 of whom had never attended our K through eight program at Barstow. Local taxpayers are increasingly funding education for students with limited or only temporary ties to our community. This is not a sustainable or equitable use of public education dollars. School choice as currently structured is creating challenges to our board's ability to plan, budget, and deliver a strong public education for the students who are generally rooted in our communities, those that are attending first to school. So I urge this committee to consider establishing guardrails around school choice, such as limiting public tuition payments to public schools or requiring that tuitions for independent schools be available only to students who have attended a school in the tuition district for a defined period of time. What we should not do is perpetuate inefficient governance structures in order to preserve a school choice system that itself needs reform. So in closing, the proposed map before you presents a wonderful opportunity to transform how Vermont governs its public schools. I respectfully urge this committee to move toward a supervisory district model statewide, one that gives all communities an equal voice in budget decision, uses superintendent time and leadership more effectively, and does not leave any school district students bearing the consequences of an inefficient governance structure. And I thank you for your time and thank you for your service to Vermont students. Thank you.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah,

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: absolutely. Can't let her get out of here. That's a pointed question.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: I would be offended. Thank you. So

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: your your your area Yeah. Is unique in the state. Well, pretty unique in that. And you've made this, tuition issue quite apparent to us over a variety of school board meetings over a variety of years. Before we understand that, I'm just wondering if and I need to kind of study your words a little closer because I know you you tend to embed a lot of concepts into a pretty condensed piece of writing. Mhmm.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: So I'm not I

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: haven't digested the whole thing. Do you think that the foundation formula concept would help that scenario where it really wouldn't make a difference that your resident's children are going to school A or school B given your choice that, okay I couldn't say.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: Couldn't say.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: Jurors of you had thought that. No. Okay.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Go ahead.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Thank you, Eddie. My question regarding the statewide supervisory district model. Is the idea to create so do do away with supervisory unions and then take all the school districts that currently exist and make them supervisory districts or merging a number of school districts into new supervisory districts, is that?

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: Well, if our goal is to decrease the number of entities or districts across the state, then no, I don't wanna see 119 supervisory districts. No, that would not be, the idea is looking at a map like this, where you are consolidating districts, instead of having them be SUs, have them be SDs, supervisory districts. One board per district. Okay. Yeah.

[Senator Terry Williams (Clerk)]: That's what I thought, but I wasn't quite sure. So what you're suggesting then, just so I'm on the same page, is all these different colored sections becoming their own supervisory districts.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: Well, I'm not even saying that because those are huge. When I look at their size relative to our current SDs, supervisory districts, they're much bigger in terms of geographic area as well as student population.

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: Out of the

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: same student population actually. Oh, are? These are, yes. It's the

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: same as like these? Up close, not so much these, but these are what you say, They're all about, the culinary is all about 2,700 students and some of the districts in the gray are over that, think five well, five or six are above 2,500 and a few others within the gray area would need to get more distribution.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: So think

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: one, want to what it's worth, the notion of, the foundation form that of course would appeal with any of those budgets passed or not passing because they wouldn't be passing the budgets anymore. So and then the other just you know played out here the other part of this was to reduce the number of districts by 50%, would also appeal a lot with superintendent time. So

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: looking at our region, since you asked me about that earlier, Senator.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So where are you?

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: So we're in the Rutland area one.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: In the blue area.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Mhmm. In the

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: blue area.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yep.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: So looking at that area, or Supervisory Union proposed SU number six, I counted four towns and eight districts currently. So I think in the legislation that I read or the legislative language I read is that you're proposing to have the number of districts in each of those proposed SUs. So that would be four districts. It's

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: actually not by SU. It's actually statewide. Some would be more, some would be fewer. Okay. That's another we can get to that if we have a look. Okay. But yeah, potentially it could be. That would be a good, perhaps a

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: good goal for that to turn- Right. Without a suit- Right.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: To get that out.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: Yeah, it's, it's, it just, it doesn't get to solving the problems that I'm noticing right now, being inside a test you when there's a failed budget, how that is very difficult if one district passes and the other doesn't.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Just, you know, not to argue with what, but that wouldn't be the case in one of the foundation board members. Well, that's true. Yeah. And

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: then my other concern definitely is superintendent capacity because I hear that a lot. I mean we're just two districts and our superintendent is stretched already with two districts so anything more will just make it that much more time consuming and difficult.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So would you, do you have a configuration that would make sense from your perspective? Just want to check. Yeah.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: Well, anyway, can I offer a concept and see if if it makes sense? Sure.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: So so part of the the task here is to balance out local control, local input as it currently exists with some future state. And I agree with you completely that superintendents shouldn't be spending the bulk of their time bouncing around from board. I thought the concept with these larger districts, SCUs, whatever you like, whatever the name is in the end, that you have a superintendent, one superintendent with a much larger geographic footprint that has a board that works for that entire larger region. Right. That the that the districts which currently exist like yours continue to exist. They report into or they are represented by one school board member sitting at the table at the new larger regional school board that reports into that or or has that relationship with the single superintendent? Do you think that's a balance of where we are now with very micro local control and input to a future state that addresses your concern about the capacity of the superintendent.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: So let me see if

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: I understand. So what you're saying is that we have super supervisory unions still and e and the the districts would still exist. We're not changing the number of the districts inside the supervisory union, and each district would have one board member that sits on that super board, let's call it, at the supervisory union level. Would that, and then therefore, superintendent would be going to one board meeting a month. And that one board would have, carry the responsibilities and the roles it would definitely help the superintendent's capacity. Oh yeah,

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: for sure. Okay.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: Yeah, because it's reporting to one board. If you don't, yeah, if you didn't buy into, another challenge, I didn't talk about this in my testimony, but I have seen this, wearing my other hat, working at the VSVA, is sometimes I do get, calls from districts who are having challenges or problems with the superintendent, but if not all the other districts are, then it's very hard to take any action or it's, it's difficult because as a district board, your superintendent's not, your, your, your superintendent reports to the Supervisory Union board. So if you have six districts and one district or two districts are not happy with the superintendent, they don't have much ability to change anything. That's another reason I another challenge I see from the governance, the governance side. Okay.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: The

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: weapons. They do. Because you can't let her get off so we get this big trip. Yep. Right. So, your first point. Yeah. Was about eliminating student facing positions.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: So population of students is on a decline. Right. But the budgets continue to increase. It would would seem that if if student populations are declining that the student facing positions would also be on a decline. So if you had forty, fifty teachers and your population drops three, four percent a year, that you could should anticipate a similar effect on this the the faculty. Is that fair?

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: Oh, definitely. I mean, you, yeah.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: As we hear a lot in here.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: The challenge is the transition, and it's similar, it's a challenge that we spent through ourselves in our own district where you're moving as your population's declining, you're trying as a board to figure out what's the staffing, what is the staffing that we need. Now when you have 40 students in a grade, it makes sense to have two classes, right? But as you go down to you go down slowly, at what point do you say, okay, now we're only got here's the mat the sweet spot. We talked about that earlier. The sweet spot to have one to have one class per grade, therefore one teacher per grade. It's that that gets tricky to manage. Sure, of course. Yeah, yeah, that's, and so that's what I have

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: to Okay, say about thank you. Yep. Yes, so we were, now your second paragraph, or first paragraph, last sheet, they talked about school board, and we got into independent schools in Asia. This gets me because a lot when we have people come in and say, spend public dollars, should stay in public schools, that's not true anywhere else in the government agency that our money just doesn't stay in that government's, let's say, agency of transportation constantly hiring outside private help to maintain roads. Shouldn't it be up to the parent and if you're paying taxes in that town? I heard what you said there that, you know, they didn't even go to our school, yet we're paying their tax, but the parent lives in that town and is paying taxes. So that's why it's coming out of their budget. But if the goal here is what is best for our students and where they're getting the best education, be it an independent school that doesn't have the same, have to hang out on the same standards as a public school, yet the outcome of the child's education is better. Why is it such, why is there such a battle there, do you believe in the public system? Like you said you had 13 students that went off to Killington Mountain School. Mhmm. And now the parents and student must believe that was the better place for their education. So And if we're only, if we only tuition whatever the tuition goes to the high school, why

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: is that such a big argument? So my issue or my concern with that case is that it's not the number of students that went to County School, it's the fact that they didn't they didn't live in our district beforehand.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: So they moved in there somewhere. To access that tuition, and to access that tuition, okay. How do we stop that? Because we have people to come in different agencies, let's say for the hotelmulti sale program, that as soon as that person put their foot in their arm, now they're eligible. And it's like, we wanted to put a stipulation on that here. Oh, no, you can't. But if you're there paying that tax and you moved there just so you could take advantage of it, I don't know how we could put a stop on that, but

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: Well, offered a couple suggestions, like requiring that, that second suggestion is requiring a student who accesses those tuition dollars from Hindu Pennant School, have them reside in that district for a minimum number of years, it's similar to going to a public university. Like we can't, if you wanna go to the University of Florida and you live in Vermont, I think you have to be in Florida for a certain number of years to establish your residency before you can access that in state tuition, right? So it's the

[Chris Stormy (Cabot School Board Member)]: same I agree with that,

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: but it makes it very hard once you start setting that standard because, Right. You know, I have a, say I had a 40 year old that said, Oh, if I'm moving to their town, then I can send them up. So for two years I paid before sending them to school, how would, you know, how would that work out? Because now they paid, they paid, but they never intended to send it to the public school because they can get permission to go to private, independent school. I hear

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: where you're coming from, but it just opens that Pandora's box of I think the intent of public school choice, at least in our district, was never this. It was, let's, we operate a K through eight program and we need to tuition our students to high school.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Right.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: I don't think any of us, when this started, foresaw what is happening where those numbers that we're seeing doubling to privates to individuals, excuse me, especially more and more of those students being from other parts of Vermont to come so they can access Killington Mountain School or coming from out of state to

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: access What is Killington Mountain School? Is that just a School. Academy School. Yes. School. Well, if your student ended up winning the Olympics then it's worth that big job. Yeah.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: Well, and the other point I'd like to just reiterate and underscore is that it does make it harder for us as a board to budget for our K through eight program. I do understand. Because that pie is only so big and the bigger that secondary, that tuition piece for secondary school grows, the less there's left over for the rest for the K through eight program. And we've seen that, that that piece of the pie has gotten bigger. So it makes means that we might have to cut some student facing positions that we don't wish to.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: So if we went back to the foundation point of it, then it would be much easier for you to say, oh, there's 13 students that they're all we're gonna do.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: It'd be that your situation is really rather unique. I mean, there's probably other communities.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: I think there's other communities.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: But it's still pretty unique. If you could put a few minutes of thought offline into how the foundation formula would or would not affect that scenario, just kind of like, know, would it help or would it hurt or is neutral? Yeah. That would be helpful because if we understand the problem or at least the, you know, perceived problem, challenge, we would like to know what is this about. Is this solution? The government formula is four based solution, it would be any good to know.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: Absolutely. Yep. Be happy to do that. Appreciate that opportunity. Alright.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: You missed the bell.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Alright. I'm a

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: little I know. I did look at you.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: Thank you. I want you to go before.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Well, thank you.

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: Thank you all very much. Thank you for your time. No. Thank you for your time.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I will listen. And your questions.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So the library is back to the library bill. The appropriations committee approved the amendment as presented with the Mary versus the Talbot. And it's gonna be. So this committee has to decide what it needs to do.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Do we have sometimes what happens is that a member of the committee goes over to the appropriations to sort of have it out. Sunday enforcement.

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: Yeah. I don't

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: mean to have it out, but, you know, like, I I think it's it's better to understand their reasoning and have someone in the room who's who's, like, gonna defend our position, but not, like, do it separate.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: Who is in the room? Just kinda this is appropriations, not finance. Appropriations, yeah.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Do you wanna note the Yeah. Senator Baruth, Senator Lyons, Senator Perchlich, Senator Westman, Senator Brennan, Senator Norris, Senator Watson?

[Debbie Stingeiser (School Board Member, Rutland Northeast SU/Barstow)]: I was just in there for a cannabis. I

[Senator Ruth Hardy]: like how we're

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: having a throwdown over libraries, you know, toward the end the week. That's always fun.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: Well, it's so just the expression. Especially.

[Senator Nader Hashim (Member)]: No good deed goes on.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I'm

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: trying to think who who does their probably their education budget and their library budget are the same member. Yeah.

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: I It

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: could be senator Bruce. Do you think it's Bruce? Yeah. Bruce has always been education at.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Walk me on the floor until Tuesday.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So we should, we should just thank you to have a look. Okay. I think we are adjourned, man.