Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: What?

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: We are live. We are still the Senate Education Committee on February 20. We're now shifting gears to go back to S two '27 and activating the creating immigration protocols in Vermont schools. And I think we have both Chelsea and Mark, right? We all have new we have did we get conferences for everybody? Was it just in the past? Yes. I haven't had. It's now. Is this? This is remember that when Chelsea was here or whatever day it was, Tuesday maybe, we asked and raised some issues or some things that would make sense for 02/27. And I asked whether we could actually get some proposed language. She said yes, and we had it. It starts at the very big bottom of the first page. So I think we're gonna, in whatever order you two want to do it, walk through it. But why don't you both just start with introduce yourselves for the record?

[Mark Koenig]: Sure. My name is Mark Koenig. I'm the director of policy services and legislative affairs for Vermont School Boards Association.

[Chelsea Myers]: Hi, I am Chelsea Myers. I'm the executive director of the Vermont Superintendent's Association.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. So did you wanna have to make some Well, whatever you wanna do, floor is yours. If you wanna make some comments first, then walk us through the language or however you wanna do it is fine.

[Mark Koenig]: Yeah, think that's fine. So before we start discussing, I just wanna say that the SBA does support the intent of this bill, the following are only suggestions being presented so that it would make it easier for school districts and superintendents to implement the intention of 02/27. So school board policies are formally adopted binding broad statements of direction set by the board administrative procedures are the specific step by step actions developed by superintendents to implement those policies. Policies define what is required, whereas procedures define how that policy is carried out day to day. So in general, we hope that the majority of this work can live inside of administrative procedures and that it aligns clearly with the training of employees, especially those who would interface directly with building access and security. So we do have a section by section. Some of this is specific, what you have in front of you is from Chelsea and BSA. Some of the things I will talk about are not necessarily reflected directly in the paper in front of you, but we can, we don't have any differences of opinion, just some other edits that we considered. So with the title, I can start there. The bill currently adds the words immigration protocols. When Mr. Thompson from the state's office testified last week, he made note of the fact that the second circuit might make take issue with focusing on just one governmental agency when the underlying concern raised in the bill is relevant regarding a number of state and federal agencies. So the title of the chapter could be renamed Fire and Emergency Preparedness Drills, Safety Patrols and Law Enforcement Access. And the title of the new section of fourteen eighty six could be Law Enforcement Access Policy. And to that end, we would recommend changing the definition of federal immigration authority under one A to be expanded to read law enforcement agent means an agent of federal, state, or local law enforcement authorized with the power to arrest or detain individuals or manage the custody of detained individuals for a law enforcement purpose, including the Department of Homeland Security, Integration and Customs Enforcement

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Wait, wait, wait, do we have this language? We have. Chelsea, so you're doing a whole another set of changes?

[Mark Koenig]: I'm just changing that one definition to broaden the scope, to try and reflect the concern that the state AG's office raised by narrowing the focus just to immigration. The Second Circuit apparently has thought that that was somewhat problematic. This could be a number of law enforcement agencies that we would be concerned with. Just the suggestion that it be broadened.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. That's fine. Can you well, before we're done here, can you put this in writing for us? Just be very specific on those. Because we can't keep up trying to write it

[Mark Koenig]: I'm just trying to give you ideas. And then if they sound interesting, then I will be happy to provide you with detail like Chelsea did earlier, but we just didn't coordinate fast enough to be able to have one thing. But I'm actually gonna hand it over to Chelsea now. That's as far as I'm gonna go on this topic.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Oh, okay. So maybe Chelsea can put or you two can put that together, of course. Because even if even if we don't like it, give it to us. Yeah. Okay. From there.

[Chelsea Myers]: Yeah. So, most of the other changes, I believe VSBA was on board with but these changes that you see in front of you are not reflective of that broadening of scope. We don't, we haven't weighed in on that. I haven't like kind of collected feedback on that potential change but what you have in front of you is exactly what we had put in our broad testimony the other day it's to making sure that the right language is in policy, languages and procedure and the right languages and guidance. So it looks like a lot of cross out and things like that. But really, it's a lot of just moving around to the appropriate what we feel is the appropriate place for implementation. And so if you look in the document that I provided, The changes to the definitions are pretty minimal. It just asks that you put the that you strike out the examples of a non public area of a school site. This allows for a broader definition to help ensure that all sites of the school are included as needed. And so we think if you narrow it too much that there could be something that's missing or left out. And so we just recommend that you keep it broad to school site. And then the real bulk of the changes that we're recommending here is sorry about that. Just changing what is how it kind of what is in policy and what is in procedure. So, the next section is policy required. And what our recommendation here is, is that the Secretary of Education consultation with stakeholder groups, including the VSPA shall create a standalone model policy. The model policy is not to recommend that this is a recommended policy that you have a lot of places in statute that you have required model policies. And what that allows for is not individual districts to have to create the foundation of that policy in in 119 different districts. So, this happens a lot. It happened with the mascot bill. It happened with the behavioral threat assessment. The central organization, the agency of education creates a model. And then the school districts can adopt something as comprehensive or a little bit. It has to be as a comprehensive, but it can be a little bit nuanced in terms of their local context. So you all have done that in statues quite a bit. And so that's exactly what we're doing here in this recommendation in Part B. And so then it takes what we would recommend to include in the policy portion of that. And to be honest, I looked at different policies from around the state and around the country to come up with those four different pieces. I'm sorry, three different pieces. So part one is is about the data management and data collection. And so we pull in the sec what was Section E in your current draft to that particular topic. And then sec part two is about the access of law enforcement to school sites. And part three would be the kind of the piece about collaborating with immigration authorities that you had in your bill. So those are the core components of what would be included in policy. And then we would move to Section C, which again, is immigration resources, that's the same as what you have now. And the changes here, we recommend are just to help streamline some of the language. We thought that number two was a bit redundant and did not provide flexibility in wider training opportunities, opportunities. Because of the designation of a single officer, this is comprehensive work. And so I think by minimizing it to one individual person that would receive that kind of training and information is limiting. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize my camera had gone off.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So, so Chelsea, the flip side of that is if everybody, you know, the old saying, if everybody's responsible, nobody's responsible. How do we ensure that people know who the go to person is?

[Chelsea Myers]: Yeah, so that's in a later section. So this is just about who receives training. I think what you're referring to is the access piece of the puzzle, like access to the

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: building Yeah, and things like this is about the training portion. Yeah, this is about resources. Okay, going back a step.

[Chelsea Myers]: Sure.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: You talked about how the school can either adopt the model policy or add to it. It doesn't say that anywhere. It only says that agency must provide a model policy. It never actually says they have to do it.

[Chelsea Myers]: Yeah, that's in your implementation section at the end of the bill. I basically modeled it statute that you already have and how it was sequenced. I am not Ledge Council, I think that they could potentially support that, but that's kind of how I had it structured at the end. All districts must adopt a policy at least as comprehensive as the model.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: That's what the year said. Okay. Okay. Yep. So go ahead.

[Chelsea Myers]: Yeah. So, these are the resources section. Again, just kind of not limiting the ability to distribute resources. And then on section two, we recommend just broadening the scope of the support that a student may receive, not to just the specific instance of guardian detainment, but any any impact of actions by immigration authorities or if you open it up to law, all law enforcement, as Mark suggested, then that would be needed to be amended in the language there. So it's just allowing for a little bit broader scope for the support of students. The next is the new section, which would be model administrative procedures. As we said, a lot of like the very specific nuances of who can go in the building when and those types of procedures live in administrative procedures, not in board policy, because the administrators are the ones that are carrying out the implementation of that policy. And you can there's a lot of there's several examples currently already on school districts websites that reflect exactly what is is written in this rewrite or potential rewrite. So, the next section is model administrative procedures. And it basically takes the language that's already in the bill and puts it in the model procedures. And that is sections one through five of D. And you'll see the cross out language of E that is because E has been already put in the model policy language. I did not delete that completely. It's just in a different place. So that would be included in the model model policy and then one through five would be in model procedures, because that has a lot to do with who is who has authority over letting people into the building and the pieces about data, and providing data as well in those procedures. And that is very, it's very reflective of the procedures that several school districts have already adopted. And then we didn't make any changes to the resource guide, but you might want to consider the dates since they're pretty soon. And then back to Chair Bongartz point, Section three talks about the policy and procedure adoption. And so that's basically saying when the school board shall adopt the the policy that needs to be as comprehensive as the model policy developed by the secretary. And the same thing with the model procedures as well.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay, so one one thing you would be called services stakeholder input into knowledge. So lunch houses would have to Oh, yeah. So back on section two, support for students.

[Chelsea Myers]: Yeah.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: What you've done here is shifted everything from the superintendent to the agency, and part of the idea was, and I just want to explore this with you, That the district would know, would have somebody that they had sort of talked to in advance and knew that that was going be the person they call if something happened to help. And you're suggesting that rather than that, the agency could file a list

[Chelsea Myers]: but yeah. So, I'm sorry.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So, I'm just wondering like I kind of like the idea of the district knowing and they they already knew each other in advance and here this is just a list of what.

[Chelsea Myers]: Yeah, the the language could be tightened. What the intent there on on that language was that certain regions of the state don't necessarily have all those connections and partnerships. And so having a resource that allows superintendents to access those partnerships and like the kind of all of the plethora of resources in for example, Chittenden County in rural parts of the state, that there would be a central kind of repository for that information, but that the superintendent would still be the one that is the the nexus between the the student and those resources. So it's not taking the superintendent out of the equation. It's more just getting support with developing those because certain districts have more capacity than others to be able to develop those partnerships.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Maybe say something or else to maybe I don't know if we want to put it in statute, you want the superintendent to have at least talk to somebody ahead of time and have some kind of a relationship. But I guess hopefully they would do that on their own. Or would you suggest it as part of the procedures as opposed to the statute?

[Chelsea Myers]: Yeah, I think to the extent that we can leave flexibility in how those partnerships are formed, and reliably give support to those areas of the state that maybe have not historically had those partnerships to be able to formulate them. From our perspective, the greater flexibility around that support for student, the better, because I think those adults in the building have kind of the best knowledge of how to help support that student. And so I wouldn't be super prescriptive in that section of the law, but that's totally up to you all.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I guess my question is, would it make sense to put it into the oral administrative procedures that the superintendent should have some kind of, or the identified person should have a relationship with the person they're gonna be calling ahead of time.

[Chelsea Myers]: So the procedures in our vantage point is more about the access to the building and the data privacy.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah, okay.

[Chelsea Myers]: So I would maybe leave it as a separate section, but again, leave as much flexibility. Superintendents, principals, educators, the most important thing to them is the relationships with their students. And I don't know that we can really adequately capture how they would wrap around that student in a small amount of text in law. And so I just wouldn't want to box anyone into a specific way of interacting with students because I do think those educators know best.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I was talking about the students. Was talking about the agency to help them if something were to happen. The person they call an emergency, that the superintendent would call, I forget the language we had initially, it was a legal advocacy organization that we took out because we didn't even hold that then necessarily, but I was just, that's the risk which I was thinking of ahead of time.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Can I make a suggestion?

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I will say, to my knowledge, Vermont Asylum Assistance Project will travel across the state. They will talk to anyone in the state, and they are looking at the language right now to see if, you know, what would make the most sense to make that seamless. I I don't think it's disagreeing with anybody. I just think there eventually, shouldn't be a reason that administrators don't know who to help

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: the That's student get in contact what I'm trying to get at. Like it's

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: to my knowledge.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: But I think this is, I see where you're going and it makes sense actually, what one level to have the agency help put together a list. Daphne, is this on what did we post this? I haven't received it. Okay. So remember to send us a copy.

[Chelsea Myers]: Yeah. I was in the car trying to get

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: That's feedback for okay. But we want to post this. And then you're gonna send us something incorporating Mark's thoughts at the beginning. So maybe send us draft two of your

[Mark Koenig]: Yes, we can do that. Okay.

[Chelsea Myers]: Sure. I I haven't asked superintendents about the broader inclusion, so I would want to get back. And so maybe just that separate section is from the SBA for now. Just because I would need to go back to my board about that.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: That's why Mark, you sent it to us then as you as you had a as you were kind of reading it. So, we we had it. We can think of we can put it up. Can put it all together with Ledge Council and have a discussion.

[Chelsea Myers]: Yeah, I think I think we're talking about the same thing in terms of the support for students, and it's just a matter of getting that language correct. The agency has worked with us in the earlier part of 2025, to provide a resource to superintendents, and we kind of acted as a middle person to get some of that training out. So I think there's just a lot of ways to wrap around both school districts and students. And I think we're in agreement and open to the language on that premise.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Alright. Yeah. This is so it's it's it's feeling like we're on our way here. We're to work and so we're waiting for a little bit for another.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, who is the drafter again?

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Because Chelsea.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Sorry. The the the legislative council.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Oh. I

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: don't think I didn't think No. It's Rick.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: It's Rick. Rick. Before the stress report, we do that.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So Rick has Rick has the language for Rebecca Callaghan. I'm happy to work with Rick to smooth out both drafts. I think, I think they speak to the same things and do so in slightly different ways that aren't conflicting, they just need to be worked out.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So they don't have doesn't have Rick doesn't have the SEA?

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Exactly. So that's the thing. I'm wondering how you want to proceed because we work on the outside of committees over time.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So you're so he has?

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: He has the one I sent.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. From?

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: From doctor Rebecca Callaghan at UPS.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. And we're and we're waiting. You said some who's who else was working on it?

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: This.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: No. But you said you mentioned the or something somebody else.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Oh, well, you're right. So that, Jill Martin Diaz, was taking a look at the language over the weekend. I said on Tuesday we would need feedback.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Because I just gave it

[Mark Koenig]: to him

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: yesterday and they do a lot of immigration law work. Yeah.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I think that would be so take this with you. Yeah. And they'll be online. They'll be posted.

[Chelsea Myers]: Mhmm.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And you can come back and have a couple of the graphs that would be.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. Do we have this exact thing digitally?

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: We don't think so. I'll send

[Chelsea Myers]: it right after this.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah. Thanks. That was helpful. I appreciate the time you put into it. Yeah, we'll get it. We'll put together a new draft and just go through it with everything and make decisions, but this is helpful. And Mark, we'll look for yours, we'll have that in place.

[Mark Koenig]: Will do.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. Thank you.

[Chelsea Myers]: Thank you. Thank you.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Beat the storm. Yeah. Yeah. My wife's been. It fair to say?

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: No matter what.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah. I'm having you drink into it. Yeah. Well, it's the three of us are, and you probably are too. Yeah. I go with that. I go with that. Yeah.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Oh, the whenever we hit Bolton, right, changes so we see.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: But, yeah, you're going north. I don't know about that. You're kinda going Southwest for the future. So we're a charter.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay.

[Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: We're just