Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: We're live.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: With Senate Education Week February 18. We start the afternoon by spending a little bit of time, We kind of walk through, ask questions, mark up, whatever, of S-two 27, having to do investigation and safety of integrations.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: You don't have anything for us to sit here. No, but I've been watching this as a really fan. I can answer questions and provide some students. I

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: think we've all made a lot of notes, so we haven't had you back in. So we're here, we heard from the Student Boards We're going to hear from the School Boards Association. But I've got a bunch of those that we can start with and people can jump in as we go. I have a note here on the side that you may have heard this testimony, but to the extent that we need to have broad language to show that the privacy of data confidentiality goes to more than just NICE to make sure that it's provides more law enforcement.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Does this have kind of what I would call like data minimization? The best practice would be to not collect more information right now than is federally required or even

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: We did get into the information for schools that this is more about just whatever it

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: is they do come to. So on, page three? Mhmm. That's if you wanna look at that and kind of

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm I'm seeing it now. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Like, I'll just say out loud, it it was helpful for me to learn it's not good to write down someone's country of origin. They and they don't have to do that. They could just say from The US, not from The US, and that's helpful right now.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So that would be a policy change, I think.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, no. It's just a best practice because nothing is state or federal law required.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: No, I understand that. Yeah. But some may do it. I don't think I'm thinking definitely as to what would the bill be at this point.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: On page three, Subdivision, Subsection E, Student Records. School districts are prohibited from using policies or procedures to engage in practices that have the effect of excluding a detention from school, and that here's the important stuff collecting or requesting information regarding citizenship or immigration status of a student, of students, or their family members, except as required by state or federal law, or required to administer a state or federally supported educational program. And then two, this designation of immigration status, citizenship,

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: and place of birth.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Place of birth. Yeah. Yeah.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: So and I you heard testimony about the two federal laws that prohibited state from prohibiting the sharing of information. And the two key categories is that immigration status and citizenship. So what the federal law says, and I think Toledo Thomas talked about this, is that a state can't prohibit that sharing with the federal government, but there's nothing saying the state cannot collect that information. So if you prevent the the school from collecting it, then they can't share it. Right? So that's the maybe end around, if you want to discuss ways to do that. There's other issues that I want to get to with that but that's if you want to talk about privacy first.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Well, well, let's be able to stay on that for a second because I think Senator Ram, I think it's well taken that we can. Yeah. If there's no real reason to do it, Which let's do

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: I agree with that, but why is it the other question, why is that such a big deal that you do know the origin of the country they confront? Do you just feel you'd use that against them? Is that what

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: do you think the law is gonna use that against them?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm not trying to be too political. There has been targeting of people based on specific nationality and specific regions of the world. So what

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: you're gonna say, you're gonna say that they don't even come to the school. They call and say, We want this information so they can know the information, extract the information to say, Okay, now I know Kesha and Hinsdale is from

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Some other country than here. Now we're gonna check it out.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah. I mean, let's just say I'm all about data collection under normal circumstances. Mhmm. But right now, if we are being asked to turn over sensitive data that states have not been asked to turn over to the federal government before, probably collecting less data is reducing harm to those who the data is about.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: So what about in the future when you may want that data? Is it gonna be

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: most of magnitude changes or

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I would love to see that future in my heart of mind, but, you know, it probably is going to remain a best practice for a while to not over collect information. There's really no material reason they need it. They might have just wanted to do some.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: So I just wanted to be clear, only reason you don't want to collect it is so that if they call for that information, not incumbent school to call and say, Hey, want this data, that the less data, the better, so it doesn't

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So I don't wanna, like, I wanna use a real world example, but not with the attention to malign any community. Even if they know, oh, this school has a lot of Somali American students, that's probably not good for that school. So it doesn't even have to be identifying information of a particular student for it to be of concern right now that we not release too much information about the demographics of a school.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Not even take it in.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Not take it in, not have it on file.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: I don't mind that. Just that later, like you said, when you're data driven or when you go into the doctor's office and they ask you all kinds of stuff, it's like they're gonna share that with somebody. So that's what you're worried about. In this case, going the wrong way, but normally it's like, we want all that information, now we don't. So just clearing it up, that's, I'm happy with it. Thanks.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So I I have a note here that interest is covered, but federal authorities have no way to enter public zones without a warrant. That's I wanna talk about that,

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Steven, if I if I can. Last time, there was a question about s two zero nine, the the bill that limits civil arrest in sensitive spaces, including schools, and that's a pretty broad definition of what a school is. So that bill passes Senate. It's now in the house. I think it's important to think about that intersection with this. So just to kind of summarize s two zero nine, the way it currently is, which it may change in the house, it would prevent the civil arrest of a person in for this committee's purposes at a school. Right? This bill would not necessarily conflict with that. However, this bill requires a judicial warrant that the superintendent or designee get a warrant before that this is specific to federal law enforcement, which I think makes you wanna change that. Any law enforcement comes to the school, in order to get to a non public area, they need to show a judicial warrant. And I think you just need to think about how that intersects with two zero nine, if it passes or not, and how you want to maybe work on that language a little bit to make it what you're first.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Well, so the thinking was that it would be more likely to stand on the scrooping, they included it wasn't just isolating one branch of law Correct. So I think we'd like to go in that direction. Challenge is what, I guess we could say unless invited because it's not uncommon for a local law enforcement officer to get invited to the school and for probably benign purposes.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: And then the school resource officer, I don't know, if you want to think, because they are law enforcement, right, technically. I'm not sure how you want to consider that, if they are invited on an ongoing basis or? If they're a school resource officer, can't just scoop them Right. You can't. That kind of lends itself to, you you wanna, as I, I think, right? I get weird. Okay, all right. Okay. The more you kind of pick at it and target it towards something, but I think school resource makes, if you wanna exclude that specifically, that does make some sense because they are literally part of school ongoing practices, procedures, so I can think about that too, but,

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Member)]: Yes? Yeah, so thinking of a entirely different scenario where we do want law enforcement on-site without a warrant, if there's, like, an active shooter or something like that, I wanna make sure we're not creating a dilemma, an administrative dilemma for the administrators of the school. That's a felony. This is This is But there's, it says There's two of them.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Now you're, you're in my head. Yeah.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Member)]: I mean, one case, we're trying to prevent. The other case, we're trying trying prevent. We need Yeah. You know, expeditious entry service. The the other hesitation I have is that if I were a principal, actually, me personally as an individual, I would know a judicial warrant from another type of warrant from I would have no idea, and I'm curious how the principal would be going to be making this decision. And actually it says here superintendent, so, you know, here you have a superintendent, they have one school, you know, it's is it really a superintendent or is it

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: principal or Designee. Well, one of

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Member)]: them says designee and one of them does designee. Where does it matter? Page four, line four.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: So, some of this would be one would be that they would designate at least one individual to serve at each school site? Oh, there you go. So it's okay.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Member)]: Different purpose or same purpose, different?

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: So I think the guide that is in section two, the immigration resource guide, would be something we can beef up and have the AAG provide language to superintendents that say this is what the warrant looks like. This is an administrative warrant, This is a judicial warrant. I think that's a good thing to think about is this is a lot to put on the employees of the school. So you want to be as helpful as you can, saying that this is what we want you to do. These are how these things look.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So before you go on, why don't you identify yourself for the record?

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: Oh, sure. Good afternoon. I'm Julio Thompson, assistant attorney general, co director of the Civil Rights Unit. Thank you.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Just so that we call on you for a quick question as we go. Fair enough, sir.

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: That's easy.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And by the way, if you are listening, can go like that. That's fine. Do that, don't recognize it. Because if you got something you want to jump in on, do it now. It's okay to do Well, had a maybe two minutes ago.

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: Maybe I can pick it up later. Okay. Know that field. But thank you for the answer.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: So we're looking at sub sub such f round of page four. So I I guess yeah. This I think we need to think about I I agree that we should not confine it to federal immigration authorities, but it's it's correct that there's not really an exigency here, that if, law enforcement comes because they're shot fired or they hear something

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: they They have a warrant. Yeah.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: But they hear shots fired or they get a phone call. You know, I think maybe you wanna think about that too, and how you wanna word that, or not word it, but how you wanna structure it.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Do you do you have enough of a sense to to try something along for us?

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Is is that kind of where the committee wants to

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I don't know if it's the exact same place, but there's a lot of adjacent recommendations to tighten the language rather than It's this is from Rebecca Callahan who's been looking at what other states are doing to tighten up who's considered a school employee, what's considered school property, etcetera.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Got it.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah. I've got that. Okay.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I forwarded it to Rick and Julio. Should we can I print it for people? Because this might answer some people's questions about

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: I appreciate it.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: How the language might be typed or made more specific.

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: Did you just send them?

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yep. Well, as long as they have they have it.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I don't know. Because I haven't seen them before. Yeah. She she definitely didn't email Rick this. She emailed it just to me, and she said, this is more comprehensive than what I shared with Daphne. So I'll just send it to the committee.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. That's fine. Yeah.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Probably send it for the for the and then the draft. Yeah. Can yeah.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And I and I forwarded it to you already. Yeah.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So it's on page two. Let's take a look. I have I have a note notation of it too. Yes. Saying at, like, events, open house, school plays. Yes. How do we and, like, a football field that would have them writing a football game inside of them.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I think that's interesting. I mean, what she did was scrape from other states, so it might be good to just try not to reinvent the wheel.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Rick will have it, right?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah, he has it. Everybody has it now.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. I haven't had you to look at it. So Mr. Terry, you're right. This is, in my opinion, football field. I'm not sure, because you have, you do have a few examples, classrooms, cafeteria, gymnasium, playgrounds, and any other location where students gather, that's a little squishy at the end. I think if you wanna exclude athletics, you should be specific. If you don't, if you remove the specifics, I think it becomes just a place where you have to get through some kind of authority to get into the school, get into the classroom, right?

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I mean, I think kids are, people have to go all these schools. They have to go to football games, same thing. So I would have to go to the left.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And get them finished.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Member)]: I do agree with Rick, though, that the last part of that sentence is too mushy. Any other location the students gather? If not, I don't think so. Know?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Here's the location spelled Abbott for Phil.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: That could be a quite enlightenment. Let me

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: get you. School's feeling.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: They would still be part of the school, senator. It would still be but understood that it's doesn't really make it easier to understand. Because you want law enforcement to be able to understand this, and you you got and superintendents, and they have to be able to say, okay. This is where a warrant requires, you know, we can't put them into the gym or into the cafeteria because the law sent us, you know. So I think a list makes sense.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: So if they're after said individual and they run into a school, are they gonna be protected under this? Or if they, if they came off of the public grounds and into the school and like just seconds the door closes, is all of a sudden did supply?

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: So as written, it applies to federal immigration authorities. And that would not be a normal occurrence, don't think. No, don't. But if they're changing to all law enforcement, this becomes a bigger problem. Because now you have an accident circumstance, there's a chase, or like I said, shooting, something has happened, and there's probable cause to go to the school before there's suspicion that something's going on in school. So it needs to be regrettable, that portion, and we need to think about how to, you know I'm concerned about that, because

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: it could be a teenager that's committed a Oh, I understand. Yeah. And might be border patrol chasing them, or look what happened up at

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: the

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: border. That order is in the school, around school. But if they're actually trying to apprehend somebody that's done a crime

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, when we're talking about immigration protocols, the existable matter, the second it's a criminal matter, it's not an immigration related detention. It's a criminal matter.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: But the bill's being expanded.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: If if if we're

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: That's what we said in s two zero nine. I thought so.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: The yeah. S two zero nine is a civil arrest. So if it's that

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: comes in because it's civil. Right. That one here.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: The intent of this bill is to protect kids from Yes. Various interactions.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: This is essentially saying they have to have a judicial warrant before entering

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: a not Which you can all accept.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Right? If it's exited circumstance, you don't have a warrant. If you don't have this wolf,

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: with respect to it, and that's gonna swallow the wolf. Yeah. Mhmm.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But it isn't for all law enforcement.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: No. It's it's but being it was immigration after after this said individual.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I think CPP is considered to affect

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: the That they're part of their they they are defined as the federal immigration, because they're under DHS. Including ICE and CBT are both under DHS, because we have schools very close to the border. Right. Well, yeah.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Exigent circumstances would always control, right?

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Not to your house. Clearly there's probably, there's probably a couple of Fourth Amendment cases where police can go into your house, but it's very, without a warrant, it's very,

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: very rare. Well, bet in this situation. Going into a school? Yeah. Then we get on the whole school.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: You know, a 09:11 call from someone inside the school saying that there are shots fired or something's going on. There's a fight, right, that we need to break up. They're not gonna be warrant for that. Police come out and they come in in a dangerous situation. You expand the bill to include all law enforcement, they would need a warrant,

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: and that's not gonna work.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: So once we change this to be all law enforcement, we're gonna have to rethink about how I think it could be done. It's just not this language is not gonna work.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And this I mean, well, this says I don't know. This says, in the event a federal immigration authority enters a non public area, the school site without approval, the school shall not obstruct the Federal Immigration Authority. So, it can get sorted out later, but I think, you know, they

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: can All use the the stuff that's our students and our children, but I don't want to impede it. It's an actual crime. They know that they can run to the school for protection because they're well read. And they know, hey, once I enter that school, now I need to the warrant.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, school wouldn't obstruct anyone in law enforcement, I would think, from getting a dangerous situation under a lot of kids.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: But you understand, the act act out on the street, trying to apprehend and support individuals to school. I'm talking, you know, I'm not, I'm 15 and above, you know, ninth through twelfth is what I'm worried. The younger kids I don't ever see it but to. They try to apprehend outside on the property because he is convicted. One, a legal alien. Two, he's been coming to school, or however you like to put it, undocumented and individual. They have the right, you know, they have him in a pickup list because he has, or she, they have committed a crime, and they run into the school just ahead, other student's coming in, door closes and locks, now do they have to get a warrant or can they pursue in and say, we are trying to apprehend this individual because he has committed a felony. It's very rare that this would ever happen, you

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: could get a warrant.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Right, right.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: You know If it was the kind of criminal matter that happened in the state without a border involved, CBP or ICE would not be the ones going to Aberhead.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: I would normally say, yeah, because Dan Burlington, Swanton, Derby, Cannon, that's a possibility.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: So a federal immigration authority would rarely have a criminal legal representation for That's pretty, I think, pretty extreme. It could happen. Again, it's

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: extreme, but as policymakers, we're supposed to think of the full spectrum and knee jerk reaction, this is good, let's go with it. Then an incident like this happens and it's like, why didn't you think this further through? And that's all I'm asking us to do is speak. Because I like to spill, but I don't wanna protect somebody that knows how to use this to their advantage, which I doubt it will ever happen. I doubt it will ever happen, but

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I mean, we we are seeing more of a likelihood that kids get traumatized by immigration officials coming close to their campus or, you know, threatening to come to their campus than we are this situation. So I think it's really a balance, I do think people have discretion. People have discretion.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: And if we can write

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: something in that Just call us the best prep.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: K. So nonpublic areas to put a Right. A public that you're you said a language on the nonpublic area, and we'll have conversations about how to structure that, what that means.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: We have on page three, Line five. That We don't have this for today. Questions about your. And then and the question is, what is a?

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. No. That that was fine. I remember I had in my notes a paper from senator Bongartz, the immigration advocacy institution was suggested, liaise to the partner. Keep in mind, it's to the greatest extent possible. So this is not required. It's suggested, highly suggested, that they partner or come to some kind of terms with some kind of group that, and you can see that for purpose, provide assistance to a student that has had their guardian detained by, immigrations. So, I don't know how common these places are in Northeast Kentucky. I don't know how common they are outside of Burlington. So do you do you partner with somebody that is nearby? Do you partner with somebody that's at Chittenden County because they have the authority, the space, the employees to to help you? I don't know. I'll be curious what the superintendents think about this. I don't know if they gave specific feedback yet or not, but

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: They raised a bunch of issues that's been able to get suggested by elections about. Okay. So yeah. Yeah. So so what did you what did you just said instead of legal?

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: So immigration ad advocacy institution instead of legal. Substance specific, I think it was your suggestion.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: No. It was Nader. Nader. He wanted to say legal and immigration or at least immigration. That's what he's talking

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah. But you're right. There are organizations in Vermont that are here to help with immigrants. They may not be, but they also might be a good partner because they have no protocol. I don't know. They have they've had an access to they have their own access. Right. I actually like the word partner, by the way, because it suggests forming a relationship.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Right. I mean

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: way it's not even what that means, and I don't know what means, but I'm working in context. Daughter said, it's a good idea to get yourself hooked up with somebody who's gonna be able to help. Right. Right.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Nader wrote the standby guardianship legislation, or at least kept out of Senate Judiciary, but at the same time, there

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: are

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: attorneys who are able to help with stand by guardianship regardless of immigration. I mean, you know, you may not have, like but I guess I'm, like, hitting the chair because I don't know if, based on his testimony, he feels like to do immigration related standby guardianship, you need to do something different than other standby guardianship, like if someone incarcerated or going on an extended journey.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Or if they haven't done at a time. Right. Sorry, that's it. Oh, yes, the

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: other I did suggest a resource to the committee for further information. So, two legal advocacy organizations in Vermont that I know do this sort of work if a parent is detained, because you're gonna have mixed status households for kids or citizens or lawful permanent residents, would be, I think, to get input either in written testimony or from our video or even in person testimony from the Vermont Asylum Assistance Project Yeah. Which handles these sorts of issues on a daily, at a minimum weekly basis, and the Vermont Law School Immigration and Company, I think they would have a better sense of how to phrase the people who are best suited to provide that security and stability for children at that very uncertain time, and I think, you know, I think it would be, I think it would take, they could probably get you to the answer quicker than, I think

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: our office certainly certainly. What's the program at the law school?

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: I I think it's I'm not sure that But the first or thing that, yeah, it's from immigration law, I think. Okay. Immigration law. Okay. Oops.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I mean, was run by the previously run by two attorneys who are now at the Vermont Ethylum Assistance Project, so they could probably say what the

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: what it could do.

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: I consider them to be the subject matter expert.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: They are yeah. Erin Jacobson and Jill Mark subject matter experts.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Can you just be in touch with them? Yeah. Yeah.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: And see if they wanna be It's

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: or just see if they have a talk to you about how how

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: to Specific.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Rather than us have to take it.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: It's it's a law school or this

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Do you want me to I'll just email Erin Jacobson and Joe Mark via text.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Copy you all. Yeah.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Do that. Be easier to reach them. I I

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: I will contact them. Yeah. Well, wait. Give him

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: a wait. Wake up. I

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: have Erin Jacobson to email it. But you know who's at that.

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: She left. Yeah.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: She left. Yeah. Yeah. So

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: to the extent that we talked at the beginning about making sure that all that like, ward was in person with for all Mhmm. I have it built here on page three also saying, make sure that the information status is kept in the fall, including, etcetera. So I didn't know that it's not just the warrantless entry, it's also the statute of confidentiality in the past of all the big.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Are we still on D or Riant? Hold on, I'm sorry. Was moving around.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: D does the immigration with, I think you want to keep that correct. The Guardian, the, we're talking about entity, the Guardian Detainment. Think inside, you're probably safe to be specific to immigration because you're not targeting. Don't know. Okay. I had that note for generally, and I wasn't It is more generally. Okay. Just,

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: then I had notes about, a note about whether the policy should have, that's developed by the superintendent should be reviewed every couple of years.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, this is the very beginning. This would be on page two. Policy required. Each school district and approving a fifth school shall document a policy. Each single tenant and head

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: of school shall develop input procedures.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, we can add language there that says, shall review and update if necessary every one year. Is that what you want to, every two years? Yeah.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Yes. Do you think that that is something that education. Yeah, have a here. Education department could write it up so that it goes, that it's, they have something that they can work on, that they just, Hey, we need this document and get it, rather than relying on each? Or do you think schools need their, so to kind

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: of craft it to their own school?

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Well, think you're talking about perhaps model policy. Yeah. And I forgot where we landed on that because was like, asked a model.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, policy makes sense. It's a good thing to think about. Policy wise, it's up to you. Would it be easier to have AOE or whoever

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: you want

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: to It's charge with only the most important thing to answer. If you want to charge AOE with that task or the AG's office or in coordination, the guide is the Sorry, on page five. The guide is the coordination with AG in coordination with, I'm sorry, with AOE. So some form of those two developing this, because there is some, I think you want the AG to at least be consulted about That way we don't put

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: the pressures on the school. I think a model policy would be They can do what they want with it, but give them a model policy. Okay.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Do you think AOE and consult with the EEG? Well,

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: yeah, that's a good question which way yeah. That's probably right. AOE in consultation. Yeah. Yeah. These

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: days will need to be moved anyway. The guy, it's March 2026, so that's Took a few weeks. Where's this immigration guy?

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: It's not long. This is required.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: So I think this You're gonna have two things charged. The AG's gonna make the guide, AME's gonna make them all out of policy. I think you need to think about dates. I can put in some placeholder dates, but think about when you want those to be.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Should that be a call to them to say, Hey, how long do you think it'll take? So we can say the date of law is enacted, they give some Maybe nuance or

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: what you could do in the next draft is just leave a blank. Okay. And we'll see what And then there was also, I have a note on page five again, saying about timeline, August, maybe that's what you're referring to. August 1 is also very impressive. Yes, it is. Well, I'm gonna just make that a blanket.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: I wrote this in 2025, and I, of course, I it's years away, and it's the next month is 2026. So I think that maybe what happened. But yeah, obviously, you can update these, all these things, So it doesn't

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And so last time you did it in about a year? For So you got to guide for the end for the policy adoption. Which, no worries, are we speaking? Well, said it, you wrote this first in 2020.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, oh, just because it was December or November when I wrote this, 2025, I'm thinking 2026 is a long time away.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So you wrote this, let's just say November, December, and so you gave you know, seven, eight months for

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: it to happen, so And I'm sure there's ones that can place your ad.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Oh, this was also coming back to me that one of the reasons for being so aggressive was because of the school year, but that may not, just may not be mistake. Some

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: of the things you can, and you can have multiple decades, the student records piece where you prevent the taking of the student records, that could be done quicker. Yep. And the appearing on-site, the regulations there, that can be done later once you have AOE, AG guidance. So again, the dates can be adjusted.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Which

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: the dates of updating it or

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: No,

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: no. Implementation. Page five,

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: the implementation.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I think we should be pushing for as soon as possible and then hearing pushback.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: That's why we did it.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But the good news is AOE had a lot of this written down. They just didn't call it, required policy. It was the guidance. So I don't think it would take that long.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So we know March won't work.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: How do we I'll have to check with them. Who's down? The AOE. For the

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: People Board Association.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah. Or the guidance. Yeah. Yeah. Well, can we leave that blank? If for now, leave in August 1. Yeah. As you're

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: suggesting,

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: I think they're last going to

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: do it Yeah. Either And they need

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: I have in my notes, we need to, I have that in my notes, AO, we need to hear, I'm not sure if that was Emily Simmons who testified that or, but I'll leave it in for now, and then they can give you a specific Yeah,

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: yeah, okay. Anybody have anything else? Let me see. Sorry, I had one.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: The Office of the Refugee Settlement? Think William and talked about that. I've heard it several times. I think

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: what was suggested was that, which I don't think is a good idea, by the way, but that we substitute the resource behind having the same office general in consultation with the office of refugee settlement rather than AOE. I don't think that's a good idea. We could add them as a preferred in consultation with the agency and the office of drug use. So that probably makes sense.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Those are my notes from watching the census. Yes. Okay. That's I can't switch. Yes, ma'am. All speaker.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Doctor,

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: are you on a time crunch?

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: I will have to leave at 03:00.

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: Governor, state again, Julio Thompson, Attorney General's Office civil rights visit. Some of these are minor suggestions, whether it's a good mix of stronger bill in terms of accountability additional problem of policies. There are a few provisions in s two twenty seven that says the school shall not do. I think a stronger bill would say is the school and none of its employees or agents, so that you have individual commands that are responsible for violating because as it's crafted now, this is on page three of five, and subsection E is just, this is an example that relates to school records. It says school districts are prohibited from using policies or procedures that have the effect of excluding procedures. So that makes it sound like if you're excluding, it's like a formal school policy that has that effect. It doesn't really speak to the so called wildcat employee, and if you want a stronger law to deter that, in terms of their professionals' own career and personnel consequences, to have a state law prohibiting them from going off script and doing that anyways may have a stronger deterrent effect. There are no penalties here, but it has

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: a stronger command, I think, and maybe So you're saying school districts, comma, its employees?

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: Yeah. I think, like, like, those are California there's a much broader California law that included you know, let's see. There are only two state laws that address this topic that that's signed. One is, it's an amendment for California Education Code 234.7, refers to school officials and employees of a local education agency. So language like that, so you identify individuals as well Yes, as full sense. In that same paragraph, and this is because we find this language in other laws dealing with discriminatory practices or impacts. In that same paragraph, would have you consider just, not just using policies and procedures to engage in this, but just engage against conduct that may not be part of a policy that has, and often the language that we encounter is the purpose or effect. So a failed attempt to scare out kids from going to school may be something you want to sanction even if it's ultimately unsuccessful. We find that in areas of discrimination law where I do something to try to intimidate you not to come to work, but you show up anyway and kind of tough it out it's still a violation of me to try and do that. It's like an attempted crime kind of principle. So that's a purpose or effect is something to consider. On the area of nonpublic, just to give you an example of what I mean, it's a great thing, but the senators suffered something I haven't had a chance to review. Like, the California Education Code doesn't define nonpublic at all. They have PACE law on what nonpublic means. One one avenue to explore, especially if you're thinking about the terms of a model policy, will be to have a model policy identify what counts. Because even the example of a football field, you might say is an open gate, free admission, my kids went to U32, just walk on, sit on the hillside, But there are parts of an athletic field that might indeed have expectations of privacy, it's not uncapped. In football or lacrosse games, they have a medical tent that's set up, so if a player is injured, they go inside, sometimes the student's disrove, and they're being examined. I think school policies give the whoever's going to draft that will have the ability, I think, if you could say nonpublic or give some examples of nonpublic, to have that appropriate level of granularity. And then if school districts are allowed to tailor it to their physical planets, because some schools have, like, a vocational aspect of their campus and other ones might be just classrooms, then that policy mechanism gets you that level of granularity, and that would be true with the issues of exigency, which usually is talking about an imminent risk of death or serious bodily injury, that's the language you usually see for imminent risk or those sorts of things. As a matter of practice, because there's no sanction here for a superintendent, it seems to me rather speculative that somehow harm would befall a superintendent if he blocks the door and is an active shooter, you know, or an armed person runs into a building. But a policy is a great place to put that, and would be something that we would certainly, if we were asked to provide guidance, we would certainly address that in some detail. So I think that that policy mechanism does give you a lot of room to flush out some of these granular details if you decide not to put them in the statute, and it's easier to change them sometimes, such as changing statutes, so I think that's the strength of the bill, to have that feature. There is, with respect to just, again, are just minor topics, just things for, to consider. Again, on page three, with respect to student records and talking about directory information. So that directory information is just a non FERPA covered. You you don't need this consent to disclose. You know, there are some protected categories here, but there are other ones that aren't mentioned, like race is not mentioned or color is not mentioned. There may be other federal laws that preclude you from mentioning disability, But I would try to, you know, I would at least examine whether you would have a more fulsome, because this would be the information that, you know, a school would be choosing to put out to the public, and it's hard for, in many of those cases, it's hard to find how things would be relevant. And some information, of and information about national origin, I think there was some discussion of that earlier in my, and part of our practice in AG's office, deals with hate crimes, knowledge, information or misinformation about someone's national origin may increase their risk of bullying or harassment or even criminal intimidation. There are, you know, people, there are certain parts of the globe which periodically, depending on The US's international actions or relations are in the news, and our experience is that when things happen on a national, international stage, people who come from those countries that are in everyday's headlines tend to encounter more conflict in the community, and so unless there's some need to collect that information, like, say, with respect to federally supported student exchange program, where you need to know that the students are wrong, you need to know that they're actually afforded students to get the funding, for example. So just broaden that to the other protected categories like grace and covert, and you can find those protected categories in the Vermont Public Accommodations Act, which also governs schools because they are a public accommodation, that might be a source for those different protected categories to consider. I think you've covered the ground very well about how to treat different types of law enforcement. There's an Illinois law that was, it's second state law that's passed, has a specific exemption in the statute for school resource officers. That's,

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: 100

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: I guess, the bill that was signed in August went into effect this January, this HB 3,047

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: that has a specific exclusion you might want to look. That also might be the language for different sorts of language that you're

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: looking for.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I think what we can do is just have to try this stuff on and we can look at it, what you suggested. But he'd been nodding the whole time. Oh, okay.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Only a couple of shifts. Yeah.

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: But fair enough. The I think the I think I saw maybe you've already taken it to a different meeting that that I'd I'd seen a request somewhere to have more than one individual be the designee of the superintendent so they have that ability. The question is, you know, one question may be, and it may just come up when you're actually trying to administer a model policy, is whether your policy identifies who those peoples are or another area, and again, maybe this goes, this is the off ramp in terms of whatever is handed off to whoever's gonna write the guidance. Typically, such, you know, if you have a model policy, you wanna have a mechanism where you report violations, and it means to report anonymously violations so that there's actual accountability. You have people who don't wear a mental strip, but don't know where to go. And my experience is that they just start guessing. They might go to AOE, they might go to US, they might go to Human Rights Commission. So that would be something where the school district's, Where are they gonna write that, that would be a decision for them to make. If there are The other thing So there are two other things that I mentioned before that weren't discussed today for consideration. One is I told you there were these two federal laws that place limitations on when you can have voluntary communications with federal authorities, and I mentioned that there's a Second Circuit case that says that the states have the strongest interest in restricting those communications when you have a general privacy policy. This policy seems to follow that direction, but I mentioned that that two other state laws that deal with law enforcement, have similar restrictions on communications, have language saying that just like a savings clause that says nothing here is intended to violate the lawful requirements of that law. I noted in my preparation for today's appearance before you that the two laws that have been enacted, the California law, the Education Code 234.7, and the Illinois Law, HME. Both of them have the savings clause citing those two statutes, and I think that just reflects that their analysis is similar to ours, that it's something that those two statutes often show up in federal grants where you agree to comply with various laws, including Title VI, including Title VII, Title IX, but we've seen them in different administrations include those two statutes. And and so that's language that I would you have to

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: have the legislature look at. Yeah. Okay.

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: Just the other question is whether if you have a model policy and then you have individual policies that are, they're able to tailor to their facilities, the question becomes what mechanism is there to ensure compliance, and I don't know what that would be or means to do it. With respect to the statewide fair and impartial policing policy, if they're out of compliance by a certain data, or if they don't adopt a policy, there's an automatic mechanism that says you automatically adopt the model policy. But if you have another policy that's not in compliance, there's a mechanism for the criminal justice counsel and the attorney general's office to work with the agency to bring it into compliance. And if it refuses, then it's just subject to the model policy by default. And if it refuses, there's another law, 20 VSA two thousand three and fifty nine, that says if you had an agency that just says, We're not gonna follow it, and it was just kind of their own level of disobedience, and they lose access to state resources that support law enforcement. There's a, there is a, the legislature did this in 2020, kind of created teeth to your feet enforcement concern.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: We could just try on and try on model becomes, but let's see what it does. And

[Julio Thompson (Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Unit)]: the original statute did just that, just had an automatic reversion.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay, we got twelve minutes worth talking around. We're gonna have to go. Thank you.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So sure. Thank you. Yes. So you've got enough for another draft so we can keep moving. Thank That's Julio. Thanks. Both of you. Thank you. Switching gears quickly to the left. Yes. Right. Good

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: afternoon, Tucker Anderson, Legislative Counsel. You should have in front of you two different new strike all versions of the Committees Amendment S-two 32. You will note the difference is in the upper left hand corner, in the bottom right hand corner. You'll see draft 2.1 versus draft 3.1 in the lower right hand corner, you'll

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: see the version number is different. The

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: two versions are very simple, with the exception of one section of the proposed amendment, where there are two different proposals for how the after school and summer programming grant funding, diverted through the Department of Libraries, is structured. Would the committee like me to do the strike all run through now, or given the time that you have, would you like me to start by focusing on the differences between the two proposals? So if you can give me some direction on that section. Okay, why don't we do that? Okay. So, you are with me in version 2.1. The language is in section three. This amends 16 BSA section 51 to reorient into this. This is the Universal After School and Summer Special Fund. You heard testimony about this yesterday. The eligibility criteria and the application process for public libraries to get grant funding under this program. The committee is considering two different ways to handle allocating funds to the Department of Libraries for purposes of a separately administered grant program to public libraries. So in version 2.1, it maintains the language in the bill as introduced in subdivision A2 stating that a reasonable portion of funding shall be used by the department to support grants for after school and summer programs in libraries. The only change here from the underlying bill is leaving this broad to be after school and summer programs. There used to be a reference to a specific summer program in the bill as introduced, so it's a little broader there. You switch over to version 3.1, same section of the bill, section three. On page three, this establishes default threshold funding from this fund set aside to the department for purposes of this program. And I did consult with the experts in JFO around the specific type of language that should be used here, so hopefully this is correct. 95% of the cannabis sales tax revenue that's deposited in the fund shall be used by the agency of education, and then the existing language around the eligibility stays in place for that 95%. Subdivision 5% of that revenue deposited in fund shall be used by the Department of Libraries to support after school and summer programming in libraries, and then I broke out a new subdivision three to apply the current eligibility and use criteria in this section to both programs. The one run by the agency, the one run by the department. This is different from what you've heard about with the application process. This is just the types of grant support that became given out discretionarily by the agency, the department, and some of the requirements for contracts that are issued under the program.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So just to be clear about this, we're not saying that when the agent, when the Department of Wineries gives out grants, it's not so, it's because that's state money, it's not subject to federal support, it's never been wrapped up.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: So it can be simple and simple. They can set up their own program, it would still fall under the requirements. There's one mandatory requirement, it's in that subdivision C, that any subsequent contract written agreement is issued pursuant to an award requires that the grantee not discriminate or prohibits employees, agents, subcontractors, and other providers discriminating on the basis of race, green color, national, federal status, sex, sexual orientation, gender, identity, or disability. So you have two F's. And to be clear, the first, the agency retains authority over the grant program, but a reasonable portion is allocated to the Department of Libraries as part of that grant program. Version two, you split off 5% of the revenue in this fund for the Department of Libraries, and you could choose a different threshold amount, as just what was discussed yesterday. Within that scheme, one of the things that I have mentioned to the Chair is that you could always set a maximum funding amount as well. So you could restructure this to say that the lesser of 5% from the fund or dream up whatever number you want, dollars 100,000, 200,000, whatever, would be allocated to the Department of Blood Race.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I see. For the record,

[Catherine Delneo (State Librarian and Commissioner of the Department of Libraries)]: Katherine Del Namb, the State Librarian and Commissioner of Department of Libraries. Just a clarifying question about the new language in draft 3.1, the one with the percentages. In section three, I guess on page three, section two, starting on line five, Is this envisioned to support programming at any library or at public libraries? So, considering that there are school libraries, there are public libraries, the committee might want to consider the addition of words to clarify which types of libraries you need. Instead of saying support after school and summer programming at libraries, which is general, it could be academic, special libraries, museum libraries.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: If you're attending public libraries, then you might want to insert that language.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I think you have been public libraries, which includes private libraries, more public. Yes. Yeah.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm still nervous about the school section, I would say, because I we haven't seen somebody made said there's a link somewhere. I don't remember getting it. We haven't seen where it's currently going, what percent would make sense to go to libraries. I feel I I don't I can't do this in the dark. Like, I I think there were other very worthy places that this money had.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: This is why we had this discussion. Yeah. You're already seeing exactly the reason we had this discussion.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But I haven't seen any data.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yep. You mean we haven't seen data on where the grants are going at this point? We've a number of examples.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: No. Somebody should have a spreadsheet.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah, didn't get a spreadsheet.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: AOE should give us a spreadsheet. Where are

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: they? What you know is that virtually none is going to work for us. You know that was They even said that. We had that escalated. Right. And the reason it's not going to libraries is that they tend to be smaller institutions and it's not worth their time to fill in forms. So

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: got to group show, I'm not, I don't like libraries, but I also like lots of other places that do after school.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Exactly. Fair enough. That that's why we're having this discussion. Okay. So

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I wouldn't exclude school libraries.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: No, the only thing I'm saying, my only point is that what we know is that it's not happening. That much we know. Okay. You don't know where the 100% is going, with which the libraries are getting done. Right. You don't know that, at least the percentage as well. We do know that it's fine. The program is not good.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I don't want to exclude any type of library. We have I mean, like, King Street Center of Voice and Girls look at some of this, so maybe I don't know what a private library looks like, but I imagine there's good reason if they

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: have an after school preference.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I think the reason you asked the question is would it include, like, school libraries?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah, just so that if you did decide to include language that the department has instruction on that. Typically, what we did hear testimony on from agency and education from Johannes was that no libraries are no libraries have been successful in submitting and receiving submitting applications and receiving money, and he I I also have not seen a list, so I just wanna agree. Did he say no school libraries? No. My understanding is he was talking about public libraries specifically and even with public libraries specifically, there there may be a public library that's a partner agency to after school was what I recall him saying, but he'd be the best person to answer that. But there's a reason Boys and Girls Club could come into your school library because it's really good for kids not to have to leave campus Right. And walk somewhere out. Yeah. So, just to clarify, I think as far as what the intention of the bill, it was really trying to call it out for public libraries. I am aware, I know I went to summer reading at my public school in South Burlington. They opened it in the summer. If they're doing the statewide summer reading program, the department's not opposed to granting money to them, just would like clarity in the bill.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Good to go. Yes. I would note that the term libraries was used that the bill was introduced, broadest possible term, because public libraries in Title 22 is specifically defined, and I'm not sure that even under the current statute it does include libraries. I'm not certain that it includes school libraries because they're not separate organizations.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And they already I hate when we hears things apart so much that we just lose track of the general, weird kid parts.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So if we would, we think it's been helpful, we could have Daphne back in touch with the agency and we could get the list of grantees under the existing program. So we've been in place for two years, is that right?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Who's been?

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So I think the cannabis money's only been there for two years, I think two years, so we've had two years of history, and so we can, why don't we have him back with the list? So why don't we do that? And you actually had, if you had time, there's more you could show us in person.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Well, yes, I would just walk you through all of the instances that we walked through yesterday and the underlying pill, because it was a request that you could get a refresher on the total cuffs. Yes, yeah. So

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: don't lose these, everybody. Right. Thank you all. We'll try it again as early as we can.