Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Seth Boudin (President, Vermont Business Roundtable)]: Hello.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: We are live. Senate Education Committee, February 5, back after a short break. Switching gears once again. This time on about S-three 13 and actively transforming Vermont through our technical education system. And also consistent with that was rather just the intent build of S-three 13, also just things you want us to keep, witnesses want us to keep in mind as we look to take the next steps with Act 73. So I think we have although it doesn't really matter if you want to do it we have Tom Cheney listed first. So have you both been in the committee before? You have Tom, do you?

[Seth Boudin (President, Vermont Business Roundtable)]: No if I have in your committee.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay, we'll do a quick introduction.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, and if I can set up a little bit more, Kesha Ram Hinsdale, Chittenden County. Seth and Tom bookended me at UBM. So Seth was the student body president before I was at UBM. I helped Tom get his first internship in the State House when they thought maybe boys wouldn't make good interns here back in the day. And it's just been really meaningful to work with them on this project. They were part of the CTE work group all along and are seeing this from the employer side and the side of young people trying to access prosperity and opportunity. And they wrote really tried to encapsulate the the values and principles that we put in the language that Beth turned into S three thirteen. So I just wanna help set them up that way a little bit. It's good to see you both.

[Seth Boudin (President, Vermont Business Roundtable)]: Okay. Great to see you.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: A couple people who are out but will probably will be coming back in. Senator Hashim will be in the middle seat from Woodland County. Senator Weeks from Rutland over here. My name is Seth Bongartz. From, I represent the Bennington District. And I'm Terry Williams representing the district.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: Steven Heffernan representing the Addison County District.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So just as a protocol, when you come on, it's your name, what town do you live in, and what's your connection to this issue is, if you will. So even though I just introduced them in a snapshot, Senator Weeks is back with us. Hello, Mr. Weeks, the problem accountant. So, Tom, you're on.

[Tom Cheney (Executive Director, Advance Vermont)]: Thank

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: you. Whichever order you want to do.

[Tom Cheney (Executive Director, Advance Vermont)]: Sure. Unless you'd like to go first, it doesn't matter much to me.

[Seth Boudin (President, Vermont Business Roundtable)]: It Looks like we have the same tie, so I'm not sure it matters.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I'm sorry.

[Tom Cheney (Executive Director, Advance Vermont)]: Guess I'll start, and then Seth will play clean up. I'm Tom Cheney, and I'm the executive director of Advance Vermont, and I reside in Jericho, which is where I'm beaming in today with a house full of kids, which is why I couldn't be there in person with you, it's after school time here, and our data host. So Senator Ram Hinsdale set this up pretty well. The work that we did and helped inform this bill was really about encapsulating the conversations that were had in Senator Ram Hinsdale's working group. And as a reminder, that group brought together legislators and nonprofit folks like me, and more importantly, folks from education, both on the pre K to 12 kind of traditional ed side as well as the CTE side, and students. So and of course folks like Seth who represented the business community. So it's a great cross section of folks. And what we found over those what was it, four or five meetings, Senator? We came to a conclusion not a conclusion, but I guess a vision of what we collectively thought that a CTE system should look like in the future, kind of a future CTE system, and thought that that was maybe some great guideposts for the conversation this legislative session. And so we kind of wanted to make sure that we provided something that maybe you could use as a lens through which to look as you're considering the various proposals that may be coming forward and coming your way. To advance Vermont, CTE is an incredibly important part of our career navigation system. We really think that CTE allows students to have that hands on, really important opportunity to explore what they wanna do in a really meaningful way. We have to ensure that it's firing on all cylinders, so we have to make sure that all students who wanna access it are able to. We have to consider expanding the model to have more homeschool, so the sending school or hybrid access. And we have to make sure we're thinking about adult CTE programs as well, which have kind of been a little bit of the Wild Wild West historically in terms of governance and funding, and important to really prioritize that as a critical tool in our workforce development system in a way that we haven't before. Those are some of the opportunities I think before you in this bill and in the conversation that you'll be having over the course of the rest of the session. But it's also just important to note that CTE is but one part of our career navigation system and not the whole thing. Vermont, you know, deserve all Vermonters deserve opportunities to gain awareness, explore, and and plan those opportunities and those next steps. It has to be consistent and cohesive at both the local and state level. So the work that we really do and what we bring to this conversation is to help address the issue where too many students aren't able to take advantage of CTE dual enrollment early college. They're not doing the exploration and planning that they really need to do to ensure that they don't walk across the stage with a high school diploma and then off the other end in basically a cliff. We need to make sure we're building the bridge to ensure that we help them bridge from high school to their career education pathway. And right now, far too many students are kind of walking off that cliff without a clear sense of what their next steps are. CTE is incredibly important there. There's also real opportunity through this bill to take some steps to strengthen our career navigation system and build more cohesion in that. And happy to talk more about that as the bill gets looked at more specifically.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you. And again, initial questions, you're stay on, right? Yeah, happy to. Okay. So why don't we go to Seth, I can't read your last name, but.

[Seth Boudin (President, Vermont Business Roundtable)]: I remember

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: the Seth.

[Seth Boudin (President, Vermont Business Roundtable)]: That's all I need. That's all I need. Well, thank you, Chair Bongartz and committee members. I'm sorry that I can't be there in person, but I appreciate the opportunity. So for the record, my name is Seth Boudin. I'm president of the Vermont Business Roundtable. We are a CEO membership and policy organization. And we look at really the long term economic sustainability and health of Vermont. And I apologize, I'm also from Jericho, although calling in from South Burlington at the moment. So make sure that I get that for the record. One of the of the core facets of having a strong future for Vermont is our workforce, as Tom was talking about, and that's both in having the best possible outcomes for the people who are already here and providing opportunities in the future for growth. I'm sure that the committee is very aware, but currently, even though Vermont is at almost our highest population level we've ever experienced, our workforce has dipped below 350,000 for the first time since the pandemic. And sort of when I couple that with declining school enrollment, you know, we face significant workforce challenges when we look to the future. And so kind of with that as the backdrop, I just wanted to reiterate my thanks for your work on career and technical education. The roundtable really sees CTE as a bright spot in our education and career pipeline, and it delivers the kinds of education, credentials and experience that benefits both young Vermonters and eventually the overall economic outlook for the state. And Tom alluded to this, but right now more than 50% of all Vermont high school graduates go on to no further education. So that's about 2,500 students every year and you extrapolate that out over a decade, that starts to have a really big impact on workforce readiness. And what we know is that in Vermont CTE concentrators have a higher graduation rate. They report higher employment after graduation. Nationally, we have studies that show that even after three credits, students that have CTE have an unemployment rate half that of their peers, and they go on to two year degrees at a higher rate. So again, we know that CTV is working and I think our intent as Senator Ram Hinsdale and as Tom were pointing out is to make sure that it works for everyone. And I guess this isn't the focus of the work necessarily, but another point that I just feel is important. Another trend that I feel is important maybe to bring up. Young men are going on to higher education at a significantly lower rate than their female peers. And CTE is a place where we have a strong intervention strategy. We have about 60% male uptake in Vermont CTE undergraduate that flips when you get to the postgraduate level. This is really the opportunity. This is the time to make better outcomes for a significant portion of our young men and for everyone. But I just feel compelled to make sure that I make that point. I also shared with the committee, and I'm not sure if it was a little bit too later, printouts were able to make it, so I apologize, but I shared a framework that the roundtable had drafted a few years ago, and it's just, it's to articulate how we approach issues. This is our own methodology. I'm very, very cognizant business leaders and businesses are not elected officials. But it's something that we use when we try and align around any individual issues, importance or potential. At a really high level, these are just preconditional frames that we use to try and take some of the complexity out of what we're looking at and to try and make sure that we have a three sixty on the entire issue. And perhaps most importantly in in that is that first frame. Have we clearly articulated the future state that we're trying to realize? And that kind of becomes the lens through which the other decisions can be measured. And so as Tom mentioned, our intent with this document originally really was to try and create the different frames that we feel need to be considered for an effective system to go into place regardless of what happens with some of the other discussions in Act 73. And I guess to that point, I realized that some of the items in the bill as presented may already be technically allowable, but we continue to see wait lists for critical programming. We continue to see non uniformity for credentialing, And we all kind of have heard or know about this implicit barrier from sending schools when the money follows the student and it leaves the school or the district. And so I kind of, I think about Edwards Deming a little bit, and every system is perfectly designed to produce the results that it does. And you know, that's what the positive and the negative. As I said before, we know outcomes for students in CTE are working. We want to make that more accessible. But if we have wait lists and we have these implicit challenges kind of from our sending schools, then the system is also designed to produce those outcomes, even if that was never the intent. I think that the idea here is how do we introduce greater flexibility, fluidity, transparency with within the system, however that governance model ends up shaking out. And that really is the lens, I guess, that we're taking to this. You know, like I said, I think there are some of these challenges that could be fixed through maybe some direct rules changes, and that would be wonderful. But at the moment, what we're hearing from CTE directors, what we're hearing from practitioners, other people in the field is that although there might be rules on the books as they stand right now, they're not uniformly applied or they're not necessarily applied with the same accountability that we would hope for. So again, going back to our perspective from the roundtable, we're really looking at, you know, what are the long term policies that improve Vermont's workforce and economic sustainability over the next decade? And I think about the other priorities for the state. If we want to have a thriving housing market, we need construction workers, plumbers and electricians. If we want a robust health care system, we need health care specialists, EMTs, taxed. And, you know, if we want families in full schools, we have to be attractive to those people who are choosing Vermont. I think CTE plays a significant part in delivering that future and we're very committed to trying to realize that. With that, I just thank you all for the time and really appreciate the focus on this.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay, thank you. Maybe a question that it'd be better for me to ask. CTE interest papers, people who get CTE and get the importance, but I'll just try it out. You can answer to the extent you can. Senator Ram Hinsdale has talked about, and I agree with her as well, I'm saying it, that the ideal is perhaps the notion of regional high schools all with comprehensive CTEs. If we were looking forward to where we'd like to be at some point in the future that has a certain, at least intuitive element of common sense to it. We have right now we have a lot of smaller high schools around Vermont. Have some that have CTEs some that don't. Have you thought about ways that we can provide, because we're not going to have that in the next five years. It's going to take some time to head toward a goal once we set it. Have you thought about things we can do or ways that we can reach kids and provide them opportunities in some of the smaller schools without necessarily having to have them you know we have all the we have all the transportation issues between schools and have you thought about the ways that we could do make progress or provide some of the best, most elements that we can within something like the existing construct?

[Seth Boudin (President, Vermont Business Roundtable)]: Tom, I'm happy if you want to answer this as well, I just, I mean, kind of, I don't know, don't want to sound like this is a non creative idea, but the reality is that would probably come significantly through the adoption of technology where it was available and trying to make sure that those different schools had access to the programming. At the end of the day, I realized this might be anathema to CTE directors directly or to some of the other people who are in AOE who are more steeped in this. From my perspective, and I don't want to get too far over my skis here, but from my perspective, it's more about how do we deliver the programming to the student, and how do we do that in a way that most effectively provides them the skills. If that has to be done through technology at their current high school, I think that that is a blended model. And again, this goes back to some of the things where if you take out, if there's an ability to take out some of the competitiveness or the friction that comes up from the funding model and from the funding mechanism, I think that that maybe takes away some of that challenge. People might be a little bit more willing to work together to find those delivery models. They don't rely on challenging transportation or some of the other concrete physical geographic difficulties that that might have. But really from my perspective, that comes down to how do we best leverage technology to do those things that can reach those students.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you. Thanks. That's a good anything to add, Todd?

[Tom Cheney (Executive Director, Advance Vermont)]: Not much, except that I think it's doable. Right? We can get we can be creative to find those solutions. They could be technology. It could be sharing staff resources, right? Maybe there is some sort of hybrid model from a staffing perspective, where there's someone at a sending school who is also under the employee or somehow affiliated with the CTE. I think there's a number of ways that we can do this. But it does take some creativity. And I think this is probably one of the biggest ways, certainly to your point, Senator, in the short term for us to expand access to more students.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thanks. Well,

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I mean, this actually is a question on my mind since we have this strong working group and, you know, we got this far. I mean, Seth, you laid it out well, now we have to sort of explore the models poke holes in them and try and find workable solutions in the interim towards a bigger goal. How do you want to be involved this session in the next steps? Because I need you involved, so how would you like to get involved?

[Seth Boudin (President, Vermont Business Roundtable)]: Sure, and I'm happy to have some of that conversation online and to work out some of the details elsewhere. But you know, I think, again, I go back to the methodology piece, which is we're going to find ways to poke holes in whatever proposal comes up, right? There's never a perfect proposal. There's never going to be a perfect answer. We can't pretend that the system that exists today doesn't exist and say, how would we rebuild it? That we're going to end up in a place that is financially not viable. And so the reality, as I see it is how best can we articulate the goals that we're really trying to reach, use that as the lens through which we can have these conversations. Maybe there's things we can take from all the proposals put forward that get us closer. I certainly would be willing to try and put together some of my members who are certainly steeped in this world, whether it's directly or through their interaction with CTE. I mean, we have, I think about the construction academy, right? That was something that was stood up in part by a number of our members, not direct through the round table. I don't want to try and muddy the waters there that we're taking any credit. But this is part of the value that the employers see in career and technical education, whether that is the formal career and technical education or that is other varying formats that can be provided. They are making personal investments to try and make sure that this happens. So there is an interest here and certainly however I can help to coordinate that conversation or to coordinate that expertise, I'm happy to do so.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Member)]: Yes. So my question would be that the businesses are on the round table. What about money? The thing that we're all desperate and needing. And when we were down in Rutland, we saw that was donated, that lady that lady GE? Yeah, GE dominated it. So companies are eager to help, especially if it helps their industry. And we, I'm a big one for like colleges. If we started setting up a regional center, do you think businesses would be inclined to help in funding to get the type of building that they'd want that would help if it's in construction? You know, like Casella, would they think we could get them to get money? Or any big company, GE or any ITEC company to, it's something we normally don't do, but this little state's gotta do something because we're not gonna generate enough money with our people

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: to build. I

[Seth Boudin (President, Vermont Business Roundtable)]: guess I would answer that two ways. The first of which is there are obviously examples where that's taken place. And I think that it is worth the ask. It's worth the connections. It's one of the values of having those regional connections and knowing the employers in your area where they might feel that they're going to have more direct or better access to the graduates from a particular program. And I think that that speaks to some of the regional value to providing CTE across the state. I guess the caution that I would have is I would hope that that would not be the go no go line that was drawn in the sand know, in case that was, in case that did not come through in the way that it's hoped. I think that that's an additive. I think that that's a bonus to trying to create, you know, create the best outcomes. But I don't think that, I guess I would hope that we would have be able to come up with a more economically and fiscally sustainable solution that was maybe a little bit more broader based. If we do truly believe that this is an opportunity to elevate career and technical education in Vermont and not have it be, you know, a thought of separately kind of tranche of education, which it's not. It's it's part of the career and technical education as part of the overall education curriculum that all students should have, whether they're going on to their first job upon graduation, they're going into the military upon graduation, or they're going into some sort of higher degree, or they're coming back the career and technical education, as Tom was talking about with with adult CTE. So I I'm that's a bit of a that's a bit of a hedged answer, but I think the opportunity is there, but I I think that there is a you you never want to have sort of that soft intermittent, you know, funding and support as the mechanism that allows it to function.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And if I could just add because, Seth, I think some of your your long term members were involved in the apprenticeship center in Winooski. You know, they kinda just built it themselves after a while. And a lot of business support went into and is still going into the apprenticeship center because they just needed the the people. So I think it's it is happening out of a sense of urgency and a center gives people a place to donate time and equipment that's a year old and things like that.

[Seth Boudin (President, Vermont Business Roundtable)]: Exactly. Exactly. And I think, you know, that urgency can be potentially capitalized on. And to the underlying point, I think that you're making Senator is sometimes if they choose to just sort of take it over and do it themselves, that doesn't give us the coordinated system that gives us a patchwork of opportunity. I think that what we're really talking about here is how do we have the more cohesive statewide system.

[Tom Cheney (Executive Director, Advance Vermont)]: Yeah. And I'd just add, if I may. When I think when we think about governance simplifications, what does that look like? Is that a regional model or something different? Seems like the end state is likely not as many districts, right, and CTEs consolidating to some degree under those districts. I think that in some ways can be helpful to partners, whether it's an employer or someone else. What we hear a lot of times from employers is they don't know who to talk to. There's too many people to talk to, too many asks. So I think there is an opportunity in this to be thoughtful about how do we best engage employers, not just in CTE and how to build out those particular programs. But I think there's also a lot of opportunity as we build out this career navigation system that I talk about being more purposeful, more cohesive, more predictable so that we know that students are in the sixth grade are going to be following a framework from sixth grade to twelfth grade. This is something Advanced Vermont's working on with our state and private partners. If we know in sixth grade, seventh grade and up generally what competencies we expect, what exposure we expect students to have to careers and education opportunities including CTE, then all the different players can come to the table at the right time to be better partners and better players and offer their services. Right now, it's such a patchwork whether it's CTE or traditional, you know, high school and middle school that our partners, including employers, have a hard time understanding when and how to plug in. More simplified governance will help that as well as more purposeful development of the career navigation system I've been talking about.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I actually find that comment very helpful because I think what you're really what you're saying is set to establish the norm that we need for exposure and in what areas starting in the younger grades and then the question is how do we get there? That's the first thing you have to do is understand what we're actually trying to achieve. And so I think when you talked about the areas that we, all the areas you could try to have CTV programs for, thinking we have some sense of what the top five are perhaps or the top. So even if think about just some basic exposure in perhaps even smaller stools, thinking about what it is we try to achieve there that then could lead to more. So I just find that, I found that a helpful way to think about it. Your physiology was helpful to me.

[Tom Cheney (Executive Director, Advance Vermont)]: Right. What we're trying to do is build aspirations and awareness of what the opportunities are at a young age. If you don't build those aspirations, that awareness, then they're not going to know which opportunity to take. So whether it's CTE, dual enrollment, early college, you know, or whatever it may be, a work based learning opportunity or entry level job, starting early purposefully is important. And I think if you were to talk to middle school educators, school counselors, principals, they would say the infrastructure is not in place in middle school. It's more in place in high school, but still lacking, and middle school is just not there. So and those are the critical years that I think I've heard Senator Ram Hinsdale speak to before. Those are absolutely critical. By say this eighth grade or so or somewhere in there, they have pretty good sense of not exactly where they're going, what that career is but whether they're going to continue their education, whether it's meaningful to them and know whether they're going to check out. There's a really critical to moment if we your point just get really clear about what those standards are, what those opportunities are. And a lot of states are doing this so we do have some really good models including Florida and Colorado and Washington and some others.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you. Thanks for coming in. Thank you.

[Seth Boudin (President, Vermont Business Roundtable)]: Appreciate the You're

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: both thoughtful and helpful. So thanks for next to come. Much appreciated. Yeah.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Thank you, folks. I'm gonna make you do more to help us, so just we'll stay in touch.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: You you

[Seth Boudin (President, Vermont Business Roundtable)]: bet. We'll be there. Absolutely.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: We are adjourned.