Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Senate Education Committee, June 29. And today we're gonna start by giving some time to a couple of witnesses here for Mental Health Advocacy Day. Joining us by Zoom, Jason Griswold and Angela Filli on, and we will let them introduce themselves. So yeah, we do this all the time. We've given advocacy days. We had NEK day in here, I don't know, a couple weeks ago and now today's mental health day so we always like to give time to people who are trying to make a point across the state house. The floor is yours. Oh, actually, we should introduce ourselves. Let's start with Senator Ram

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Chittenden County. Good

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: afternoon, Senator David Weeks, representing Robin County. Seth Bongartz representing Bennington District. Terry Williams representing Bob McCartz. Steve Heffernan representing the Addison County Districts. Floor insurance.

[Angela Fillian (Principal, Allen Brook School, Williston)]: I wasn't sure who was to start.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Generally, it's up to you two. Did you coordinate or just?

[Angela Fillian (Principal, Allen Brook School, Williston)]: No, I have the littles, so maybe we start with me and work our way to the tallers.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay.

[Angela Fillian (Principal, Allen Brook School, Williston)]: So good afternoon, everyone, and thank you so much for this opportunity to speak today. So my name is Angela Fillian, and I'm the principal for Allenbrook School, which is a pre K through second grade school, so no one taller than me, within Williston schools. And while my daily work is grounded in early childhood education, my testimony today will represent the shared realities of our public schools across our district and across our grade levels. I hope that it reflects the voices of our students and families, our faculty and staff, and my fellow administrators working throughout the pre K through 12 system. So like other Yes.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Where is the Alamo Government School? What does it We're

[Angela Fillian (Principal, Allen Brook School, Williston)]: in Chittenden County, so part of Champlain Valley School District. We're unique in that it's pre kindergarten through second here, and then Williston Central gets three through eight. So, yeah, thank you. So like other educators across Vermont, we're seeing a significant increase in student mental health needs, anxiety, trauma responses, behavioral crises, and even suicidal ideation appearing earlier, lasting longer, and requiring more intensive interventions. At the same time, school budgets are tightening and schools are now functioning as frontline mental health responders, often without the staffing structures, the training capacity, or sustainable funding to do so effectively. Public education is frequently evaluated and sometimes criticized based on academic growth measures and outcomes. What is often missing from that conversation is the reality that many students arrive at school with unmet needs, if they arrive at all, that must be addressed before learning can begin. Schools are increasingly responsible for ensuring students feel safe, regulated, nourished, and emotionally supported before instruction is even possible. This is not a shift schools have chosen, but rather one that we have been required to absorb as outside systems struggle to meet demand. At the classroom level, teachers are feeling this tension acutely. Many report feeling ill equipped to support students' complex trauma and mental health needs while simultaneously feeling intense pressure to maintain that academic rigor and meet performance expectations. This dual demand care first achievement always places us in an unsustainable burden for our educators. Those are required to engage in critical training, including harassment, hazing, and bullying prevention, threat assessment, chronic absenteeism, suicide prevention, and CIP, which is crisis prevention for kids who are not able to maintain regular safe bodies, as well as being mandated reporters. These trainings are essential and lifesaving. However, they often occur at the start of the school year and during school hours requiring schools to pull their most skilled staff. This includes special educators, counselors, behavior specialists, and administrators who are out of the buildings for full day or sometimes multi day sessions. This has real operational consequences. Students with the highest needs temporarily lose access to their most trained adults, leaving remaining staff feeling stretched thinner. Safety risks increase. And when these trainings are unfunded and inflexible, schools are often forced to choose between the long term preparedness and day to day stability and it's unattainable position for our public schools. So mental health challenges also do not begin or end on the school day. Many originate in the home. Families are navigating significant stressors and often need support, training, and tools to help their children develop routines, emotional regulation skills, and coping strategies. Without accessibility family centered resources, schools are asked to carry not only the responsibility for education, but for the cumulative weight of unmet needs beyond the school setting. Pediatric offices are uniquely positioned to play a preventative role in this work, incorporating Adverse Childhood Experience or ACES screeners into routine wellness visits beginning as early as birth would have and allow families to be connected earlier to mental health supports. Many pediatric practices already have mental health professionals on-site. And so strengthening that intentional partnership between pediatric providers, families, schools, and community mental health systems would really allow for our concerns to be addressed proactively rather than reactively. Early intervention across home, school, and medical settings is more effective and more cost efficient than crisis response later. Despite the shared goals, our systems remain siloed. Schools, mental health providers, pediatricians, and state agencies often serve the same children without sufficient coordination. Schools bring essential insight into how children function across the school day, in group settings, and over time. That perspective must be included as part of any comprehensive support plan. I also want to raise a concern regarding the application of harassment, hazing, and bullying laws, particularly for children under the age of eight. Many students are entering schools with lagging social, emotional, and self regulation skills due to increased technology use and significant family stressors. While student safety and accountability are critical, our youngest learners need developmentally appropriate instructional responses that prioritize prevention and skill building rather than early labeling or compliance driven processes. Educators are not asking to do less. We are asking for shared responsibility, coordinated systems, and sustainable resources that reflect the scope of what public schools are being asked to do. I respectfully urge the legislature to invest in flexible, sustained funding for school based mental health staffing, cross agency training, early intervention efforts, and family centered prevention supports. So schools are not left absorbing these expanding responsibilities through already limited education budgets. So I thank you so much for your time. I've never testified before, So I'm a little nervous and also for your commitment to Vermont students, family and public schools.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Questions from the community? Do you have a specific budget request that you have made through any channel or we're just talking then sort of generally about making sure we understand the issue and how it all interfaces and fits together and that the funding is Okay. That's good.

[Angela Fillian (Principal, Allen Brook School, Williston)]: Yeah. I think one thing I can speak to is that during the pandemic, obviously circumstances were very different and we were trying to engage and meet families' needs. So those ESSER funds were really valuable. We were able to put in positions to help remedy, but then those things all went away and our crisis still remains. I just think it's a prioritization that we need to be considerate of.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And just to since we have a couple of questions, where do you see the within your testimony, where do you see the biggest holes? The biggest hole, if you will, Peggy?

[Angela Fillian (Principal, Allen Brook School, Williston)]: Yeah, it's the coordination, right? I'm obviously on the early end of things. So when kids and families enter the system, I see that there's a lot of missed opportunity in their early years of growth to wrap around and support our families. And then those students come in and we're having to pull resources and make really hard budget decisions about how to best support kiddos. There's this tension between what we expect kids to know and do and how kids are coming into the system that is not matching. I see coordination being a strong piece of that. Early prevention and getting parents what they need earlier instead of hurrying up and waiting for problems to exist in system.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you. Mr. Greenbrough.

[Jason Gingold (Principal, Montpelier High School)]: Hi everyone. Nice to meet you all. Thank you for letting me be here. Angela, great job. Thank you. Nice work. Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Jason Gingold, principal of Montpelier High School and former CTE director at two Vermont centers. This is my eleventh year as an administrator and my sixteenth year as a public educator. Montpelier High School has two full time social workers and two full time guidance counselors. One second. And four zero nine students. Prioritizing mental health is a key to ensuring our schools are truly safe and healthy for every student. To begin, let's consider what a truly safe and healthy school may look like. Consider what a safe and healthy school means today. And rather than comparing it to your past personal experiences, the environment for teens is very different now with new challenges like technology use, vaping, cyberbullying, political uncertainty, including ICE and debarred patients, civil rights being taken away and an increased awareness of mental health concerns. Does a healthy school environment include meeting students at the door, knowing knowing students by name, a positive learning environment where all students have access to learning warmth, food, and a caring adult. To our team, it means working with students to move beyond their comfort zones and to embrace new learning and co curricular experiences. That's what I believe a healthy school would look like and feel like, and if you walked our halls, you would see evidence of our actions daily. Let me share how we make this a vision reality. This is how we accomplish it. We've removed all cell phones from being used from bell to bell. We measure and survey and ask students about their belonging and self worth and safety. We've invested and overinvested our local funds to pay for student meals and snacks beyond universal field breakfast and lunch because many of our students go without and the school meal is the one time a day they can count on healthy food. We know students who are well nourished can access learning more easily. We've invested in two social workers, teacher advisory, restorative circle practices and identified which students need more intervention through our MTSS system to support all students, especially those who need more support during the day. Because there's a lack of outside therapists for students to access in our area, we've changed our approach to working with students and caregivers so that we can do more with fewer funds and community resources. We're seeing more and more students who are affected through anxiety, depression, ADHD that qualify for five zero four plans. And beyond the obvious distress these conditions cause students, it's also our hardship for our teachers and staff who are required to balance the delicate and varied needs of these disabilities with the already difficult jobs of educating young people in a society with many conflicting pressures. MHS is invested in a part time five zero four coordinator who supports students with mental health disorders and works to provide effective accommodations. We have building based attendance team that meets weekly to address and lower our chronic absenteeism rate. From the twenty two-twenty three school year, MHS had a chronic absenteeism rate of thirty nine percent and we are working and trending towards a twenty percent or lower rate this year. Persistent cause for remaining chronic absenteeism highlights key student struggles homelessness caused by high housing costs, illness, depression, substance abuse, limited access to alternative therapeutic schools, a shortage of therapist anxiety, pediatricians excusing students absences via notes and care and caregivers facing similar challenges with limited support. Many struggles are beyond the school's direct control or support, which adds to the complexity in resolving these issues. MHS uses our local funds to support caregivers and families. We pay for staff to pick up and take students home school to ensure access is available. MHS has invested in training all of our staff in trauma informed practices and we use restorative practices to work with students rather than suspending them, keeping them in school rather than excluding them. Every action we take is to support mental health, whether it costs money or staff or time, is essential for building a positive school community and enabling student success. To further illustrate what our mental health team encounters, here are some statements from our staff about current experiences they face each day. Trends I'm seeing among adolescent mental health. I am observing a trickle down of our current political climate into how young people view their world and their relationships. This looks like cancel culture in real time in classrooms, cafeteria, on social media in the form of blocking one another. A common phrase I hear is I cut them off. I see black and white thinking when it comes to how teens relate to their peers, adults in their lives and teachers. This diminishes curiosity and deters our ability to truly understand each other. I see this adding to anxiety and hypervillages around looking for the mistakes and unintentional harm of others versus the good in all of us. I think teens lose sight of the fact that being in a community and being a person in a school, town or country will evidentially involve navigating difference of opinions and experiences. Sometimes this may lead to conflict, but we always have the choice to repair, which can ultimately calm nervous systems and help us come back to each other. With repair comes the space to rehumanize each other. I would add that this divisiveness and us versus them mentality has a huge impact on their mental health and it generates anxiety, fuels more hopelessness and adds to an attitude of what is the point of even living and contributing to this world. We are seeing a lot of nihilistic tendencies that are fueled by this political climate and legislature could have a huge impact on modeling a way forward that is not so divisive and is truly trying to understand and work with others who have different points of view. We are seeing a lot of fragility and the inability to face challenges and discomfort. There is some entitlement and a mindset that the world is going to and needs to accommodate them. We need structures and policies that support youth while also holding them accountable so we can help young people be more resilient and develop skills to manage challenges discomfort. We know that a phone free school is the only way to go. This gave us back the ability to be present with one another from being able to be more attentive in the classroom to eye contact in the hallway to crowded talkative tables in the cafeteria. An addiction to stimulation. This is true for all ages, but especially teens who have been so screen dependent in the years during which their brains are still developing. Beneath this addiction is a resistance and avoidance to truly be with ourselves. We all want to suffer less, feel less alone and feel belonging. But when we try to meet these needs with dopamine forms of earning the max amount of Roblox blocks, focusing on Snapchat notifications and constant chatter, we stop practicing the skill of sitting with our distress, anxiety, gratitude, fears and dreams. We lose our own sense of self when we exist in the virtual reality. I think we need to keep trying to help each other and teens sit with this stuff that comes up with being ourselves. We can model how to befriend all the scary stuff that could cause anxiety and depression and move through it. We're seeing a lot of addiction to nicotine vapes and addictive tendencies with cannabis and other substances. We are seeing more psychosis in young people when talking to Washington County Mental Health and other folks doing this work. We are all seeing a link between how strong cannabis is these days in youth who are developing systems like voices and other psychotic features. The rates of psychotic features in young people have skyrocketed, and there has been not enough research on how today's cannabis affects the developing brain. Lobbying against these corporations and supporting laws that make it harder for youth to access these products seems essential. There are too few accountability treatment or residential options for youth who get in trouble with the law. If we had more to offer youth, then we would have a greater chance of them becoming adults who have learned from their mistakes and could be healthy citizens of our communities. But instead, there is little consequence and consequential thinking that develops. And then they are continued down these paths as adults where the consequences are much, much greater and impactful for their whole lives and their communities. There needs to be a high need for mental health care. It is so important for our youth to have access to mental health care in schools. This is for many reasons and a few of those reasons that are some some of our youth would never access mental health otherwise. It's easier for students to access in school. The waitlists are so long in the community mental health and that it's very challenging to provide therapists who have openings. Community mental health should be highly supported and should be the reimbursement for private therapists. The less we have of these services, the more we'll see mental health crisis showing up in the ER and mental health is care prevention. Involuntary psychiatric hospitalization is a tricky subject and there's been a lot of advocacy from the peer community, which has supported laws that make it hard to involuntary commit someone. This was necessary and at the same time these laws have gone too far. We have seen time and time again that youth and adults are released from the ER and not hospitalized when they're in danger to themselves or others and this is a disservice to everyone, especially the patient. For example, when someone is in a psychotic and refusing medication hospitalization, they are not always in their right mind to make that type of decision. And the longer the brains are psychotic, the more damage it does and the harder it is to come out. We continue to see a good number of students with high anxiety and strong aversion to doing anything that makes them anxious or uncomfortable. Presenting in class, asking questions in class, attending lunch without the guarantee of a friend to be with, etc. Avoiding these things that make us uncomfortable is human nature, but the shift is that students are often with the support of their parents want to avoid all the hard things and push for challenges to make the environment more comfortable for them. The most extreme outcome of avoiding anxious situations leads to not attending school at all, and that is the many reasons that our chronically absent students do not attend. The best way to address and eventually lessen anxiety is to acknowledge discomfort and move through it with support instead of avoiding the environment or situation. Parents are not trying to increase their child's anxiety, of course, but are inadvertently helping them be less resilient and more anxious when they support the avoidance. We are working hard to educate students and adults about the importance of not clearing out all the obstacles and challenging situations. The work of Jonathan Heit, Lynn Lyons and others is a great resource for trying to help spread this message. Also removing phones from the school environment was one tangible and very supportive thing we can do for students' mental health. Thank you for passing the law. What do we need from you? Stop adding more to our financial plate and unfunded mandates to support students and caregivers. Address challenges with addiction, vaping, healthcare and housing. And do not believe the rhetoric that schools are broken. Our school is thriving and refuting the false narrative that our test scores are low. Montpelier scores are higher than the state and national averages in VCAT, SAT AP scores. Do not believe the rhetoric that large schools create efficiencies when we see the largest schools in the state to divide their students into cohorts to be known and seen. If you want to address the cost of education in Vermont, do that, but do not mess with the systems that are working and supporting our students and families. Thank you.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you. Questions? Yes, question.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Jason, I mean, both of you, thank you, and Jason, you and I have talked about CTE and we're gonna go talk about it again. In this committee, we talked about it in the Senate Economic Development this morning. One of the things that really struck me in our CTE conversations is that seventh grade is considered kind of an average inflection point where kids need hope and a path in order to kind of feel like they're driving towards something and have hope in their future and a graduation plan. Do you see that? And it's funny because we have elementary school and high school, you know, but but I feel like something gets lost in middle school in terms of giving kids exposure and hope and making sure they have, you know, at least a like a professional trajectory. But I think for many people that's tied up with their mental health.

[Jason Gingold (Principal, Montpelier High School)]: Yeah. You know, I could only speak to our Main Street Middle School here in the capital, right, which does an outstanding job of providing lots of extended learning experiences beyond the core content. And what I would caution against in ACT 73 is a graduation requirement pathway that limits the flexibility of ACT 77 and CTE involvement. If you're going to constrain graduation requirements, you're going to put a strain on those students finding that hope. I would also say that students between the grades of seventh and eleventh and probably even adults don't always know what they're going to do. And it's about exposure and failing safe and trying different things and having experiences and not committing to not every student in seventh grade is going to commit to what they know for later in life. Right. It's about exposure and opportunity. And I love CT. I was a CT director, but I think less than 25% is what I shared with you go from their program into their field in the state. So if I'm an automotive student, less than 25% of us are staying in that program field in the state because they're going to do other things as an 18 year old, whether it's college, further trade or something else. And so while I understand the need and appreciate the want to have students find that hope, I think we also need to be careful what assumptions we're making.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Do you Can you say a little and maybe, Angela, like, what might they get in seventh grade that's really critical? Maybe it's not a magical age, but I know with third grade and literacy now we think about, okay. Let's just make sure there's some touch point in third grade. Is there you know, middle school's a very hard time. It's like, what what are we doing in that in that grade to really check-in on somebody and the tools and resources they have?

[Angela Fillian (Principal, Allen Brook School, Williston)]: I can speak a little bit to that, although no one taller than me and I'm five ' But I will say that we have measures now. We are trying really hard to, even at the primary age, we just developed a survey for our students to take, and we call it the ENGAGE survey. So it's like, do you have a trusted adult? Do you feel connection? What interests do you have? And we check on those just as much as we do the academic pieces and parts to make sure we have those kids wrapped. And it's those silent kids, the ones that aren't saying anything. So we do try to do those dipstick checks and you know, it's only as good as what kids are willing to share. But we are trying our best to keep their engagement and find their sense of belonging. Kids can tell us what they need. We just need to have enough reasons to stop, pause and give them their voice to be able to express that. That's just one example of what our district's doing. Everyone across pre K through, well, I would say kindergarten through 12, we do in the Engage survey two times a year.

[Jason Gingold (Principal, Montpelier High School)]: I'll just piggyback. Our whole district does the SEL survey similar to Angela's. So is there a trusted adult? How do they feel about their own self worth, their study skills? Do they have do they feel safe? And then as far as the middle school does, they have a sustainability lab which connects directly to the food shelf here and community involvement, extended learning opportunities besides just going to class. We have a manufacturing lab, world languages in seventh and eighth grade. And I think if you really think about it, core content is so prescribed in seventh and eighth grade that students need to see beyond the core content and see their engagement in the connection of math, literacy, science into their life, into their community and how that connects to them and future thought.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Can you send us that survey?

[Jason Gingold (Principal, Montpelier High School)]: I don't think through Panorama I can send you the survey, but I can probably find a way to send you questions.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay, kind of what I meant. Yep, thank you.

[Angela Fillian (Principal, Allen Brook School, Williston)]: I think one more thing I just thought of, and maybe you do this too, Jason, is advisories. So in our middle level, we have a point person, a teacher, a school counselor, even principals who have small cohorts of what we call advisory, and they meet every single day. And it's a small group that they check-in on with usually topics related to some of the things that they're grappling with. And it is just yet another small touch point daily to connect kids and kind of hear and think about the real world experiences that they're having. And we've built that intentionally into the middle schools and beyond.

[Jason Gingold (Principal, Montpelier High School)]: Agreed. Yesterday in our teacher advisory, we had student led conferences. So as I house and share our teacher advisory, we had a student come in with their parents and for twenty minutes talk about their academic, personal and learning goals, not only as a ninth through twelfth grader, but their future planning and what that may look like and also their obstacles and challenges that they're facing and their action steps to take that on.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you. Thanks for everything you do. You've reinforced some things we've already heard previously, but you've encapsulated it differently, so it's been helpful for us to hear it. So you very much for coming in. Thanks.

[Angela Fillian (Principal, Allen Brook School, Williston)]: For your time. Thank you.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: While we're getting Emily, I just didn't hear the other folks introduce themselves right here for mental health today. Just so. They haven't. Thought they were.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: They talked informally at this time.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But that portion's over.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: No, we can, we're still live, so why don't we do that? Okay. Have everybody just, we kind of, like, do it anyway because couples weren't here. So, can help me here? Hi. And sort of, why your connection with me?

[Sarah (Senior Social Work Student, University of Vermont)]: Yeah, I'm Sarah. I'm a senior social work student at the University of Vermont and I'm incoming the Vermont Family Hi, Michelle. I'm also a parents program at Vermont Family Network, and I'm single mother to a child with a disability education system.

[Valerie Wood (Vermont Family Network)]: I'm Valerie Wood. I live in Colchester, and I'm also a family support group at Vermont Family Network. My name's Amy Irish. I work for Northwestern Counseling and Support Services, and I oversee all our behavioral and clinical services that are school based. Hi.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm Stephanie Taylor Marshall. I'm the policy director at department of mental health.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And where?

[Stephanie Taylor Marshall (Policy Director, Department of Mental Health)]: DMH, Department of Mental Health. Okay.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Erica

[Erica McLaughlin (Executive Director of Professional Learning, Vermont Principals’ Association)]: McLaughlin, Executive Director of Professional Learning for the Vermont Principals Association. I came to support my principals.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. So now we are going to shift gears entirely. And you recall, or you may recall, will presume if you do recall, but you may recall since the beginning that we had a very quick introduction of S-one 161, which is bill that I put in that explores the potential of creating a nonprofit under the terms of the federal bill, federal budget act that is geared toward at least the way this bill is drafted within the confines of the entirety of that opportunity to focus on providing opportunities for unequivocal kids through after school programs, etcetera programs, and tutoring. And I guess something I forgot the exact language. Was supposed read before and thanks. But I thought it would be and I I worked on this seat over the summer incidentally with Deputy Saunders a little bit. That that with her talked about priorities and that that that tutoring came up suggested. I I had been thinking about having school in summer. That's when they're putting tutoring in. I think that's good idea. But anyway, asked Emily, we asked Emily Simmons, we asked the department and I'm through the agency and Emily Simmons has been assigned the role of coming in to just sort of talk to us about looking at this through the eyes of the education administration. So Emily, you're on. We have Kirby with us for drafting the bill to help us as we go along.

[Emily Simmons (General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education)]: Hi everybody, Emily Simmons. I'm the General Counsel at the Agency of Education. Thanks for having me in. Yes, Chair Bongartz. I'm the person at the agency who's been familiarizing us with the content of the Education Tax Credit Scholarship Program to the extent that we have the information yet. One of the things that I think is going to come up in our conversation is that the Department of Treasury has been directed to issue regulations, and they're still in that process. We do not have the text of the regulations that will govern this program yet. But the congressional language is fairly detailed, and so I think we don't expect any big surprise. I don't expect any big surprises when those regulations come out. I think things like timing and initial implementation might be the the main topics of those regs. So very high level, my reflections on the bill are that first it pretty tightly hews to the requirements in the federal congressional language, adds a little bit that fits into our Vermont context with respect to the schools in Vermont that are eligible to receive public ed publicly funded tuition and echoes, but is a little more specific than the federal language on the emphasis of, you know, economically disadvantaged students or students who can most benefit from additional funds. Like I said, we're we're waiting on those regulations, so there is this slight timing issue. I'm sure the committee will discuss it of going ahead now because we probably know enough to enact Vermont legislation or hedging our bets and waiting until we know everything. Time might be we might feel pretty short on time in 2027 looking at legislation given the rollout of the program. And then finally, and maybe most importantly, at the agency, we're excited about the opportunity for additional funds for students who could really use the support with expanded learning opportunities. You mentioned tutoring. That's absolutely right at the top of our list as well as summer programming and after school programming. The amount of awards to individual students will be up to the scholarship granting organizations. But to the extent they're not $20,000 awards, smaller awards, 5,000 less could be very impactful for students who don't qualify for legal entitlements to title funds, IDEA funds, but nevertheless could use extra support for expanded learning and tutoring. To the extent we can make that available, think that's a good thing.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So do you see any real reason for us not to go ahead with the legislation right now?

[Emily Simmons (General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education)]: No, I mean, you'll there's the opportunity to legislate at a later date if there are and if I'm wrong and if there are any surprises. I don't think you'll gum up the works in any way by passing a bill this year. Thank

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: you. Any questions for some no. We're good to go. Okay. And thank you. So we talked the last time about the language change. Summer programs, combat tutoring. I wanted to let you, I guess, let me just suggest that it might be simple if just did a strike off rather than put this one on the floor, then that's the ruling amendment that since it's just from us anyway, we just want to get it right the first time we take it to the Senate floor. So why don't we do that? Are people ready to go with this one?

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And it makes

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: you lot of time?

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Well, we're, yeah. I'm happy today, but are you kind of ready to go? We could do it today because it's actually, how long would it take you to? I can shoot for twenty minutes, come back. The other thing we could do is we could pull it up on, it's on today, you can pull it up from today's agenda, page two. This is so uncomplicated, I think we could just turn Kirby to do it. There was a little glitch and it was The Caribbean, tiny bit confused about it. So, no, the sub two, it is a non profit organization with a core mission of providing educational opportunities for economically underprivileged students through after school, comma, it should probably say after school programs, summer programs, tutoring, and similar programs, just for absolute clarity. So all we're doing is adding the word programs after after school, programs after summer, tutoring. Those three buckets, just to make sure that it's three buckets, not Not thinking after summer. Yeah, not summer tutoring.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: Just to make sure I'm fully understanding this, this is to create a system that allows Vermont to apply for certain tax credits in the federal government.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Well, it allows individuals, Vermonters, to contribute to one of the designated nonprofit, but maybe one or more. And for these purposes that will be the purpose of the nonprofit. And rather than get a deduction, this is the big thing about this legislation, is that rather than a deduction you get a tax credit. So in other words you get it back to the next year. If you give up to the maximum of $1,700 you either get it back at the end of the year if you get a refund or you apply it to the following year.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: Why that's exclusively for these organizations?

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yes, just only for these because normally you get a deduction given to a non profit organization. That's it's set up specially. You actually get a tax credit.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: So why the preference, or I'm not criticizing, but I just want to make sure I'm understanding, so why the preference for a tax credit rather than a deduction? That was the federal legislation, so this is a federal

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: credit, not a state.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: Federal credit, okay.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So another way to put it is we're taking advantage of the opportunity because there's a, I have forgotten now the number, but the anticipation is that this will, there will be several tens of billions of dollars getting expended for this program and we want to make sure that we have the opportunity to do the same thing with our citizens for our kids. And it's all depend on once it passes. No, it's already passed. So just getting the program Guidance might affect exactly. Some are, well, Concourse is common nonprofit, has to have recognized. That's what Emily was bringing up, right? They haven't gotten the guidance. Of course, we get talked about National Heart Working Group guidance, yeah. But it's not addressed the suitability, which is two ways.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm on the website, and sorry if I missed this, but, so with, I mean, the tax deduction, right, you have to have tax liability, etcetera, etcetera. With a tax credit, usually it's up to a certain income by which you then get an actual credit. Okay. Family income is eligibility scholarship. Okay. The scholarship eligibility is 300% of area median income, which is a lot. But what is there is there eligibility to receive the tax credit?

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: It

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: says states may count the total amount of tax credit awarded. State cash revenue from under 2,000,000 to $540,000,000.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: Kirby Gaimler, Sled of Counsel. What I'm hearing is, you want a quick summary of just how the whole thing works?

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah, I mean, looked at this and thought, okay, that looks really simple, but there are so many parameters in the federal program. Fed states, it's going to finance. It has to go to finance.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: It's a federal income tax credit for

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: one Yeah.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: That's why you got me and not one of your education attorneys.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So we wouldn't piggyback on this at the state level.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: This is not intended to have a Vermont credit.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: This is under the federal legislation, HR1, that was passed. They created this new credit. It is for contributions to scholarship granting organizations within a state, instead of within a state, to provide scholarships within that state. Mhmm. But for a scholarship grants organization to participate in the federal tax credit program, it has to have some approval by the state, by an entity in the state. It could be the governor, the way it's written, or it could be an entity that's decided through state law. So for our purposes for this proposal, the governor's being given the power to decide what are the scholarship granting organizations in Vermont, and if an organization is on that list, it means people can contribute and get the federal tax credit for that contribution up to $1,700 per year.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: There are federal requirements for these organizations specifically, and I can go through this if you want. The

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And what I'm looking at, it looks like it's if you piggyback with a state tax credit.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. I think there's a provision saying that if there's a state tax credit, you you can't double the federal credit.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Right. No. I'm just I mean

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: But but that's not being proposed.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Right. It just it's it has a number congress.gov has a number of design elements that states can consider, but it looks like those design elements don't apply to the federal tax credit. Basically,

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: it's It sounds like you're talking about design elements if a state wanted to create its own credit.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm thinking that. So there's we can't put any parameters about which organizations are eligible for the federal tax credit.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: We can and this bill does. The additional, so there's all of the federal requirements that we need to ask to meet, and you mentioned one of the, which is that I believe 90% of the scholarships handed out have to be to students under a certain

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We need 300% of area maintenance.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, and when I walked through this before, we talked about it in Vermont on average, yeah, it's in the 300. Yeah. Household thing is up to you, range. So the one requirement that's being added beyond federal law here is that the nonprofit organization has to have a core mission of providing educational opportunities to economically underprivileged students through after school, comma, after school programs, comma, summer programs, comma, tutoring, and similar programs. So it's Markels of Incorporation to have a mission statement similar to that. When the governor and AOB presumably goes to review potential SGOs that would be added to the list for Vermont, we can contribute to still make sure that that requirement's met in addition to the federal funds.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. But we we couldn't touch the eligibility to receive the tax credit and the amount of tax credit. You can receive up to $1,700 That's federal?

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: That's a good question. You're talking about putting an extra limit like means testing the taxpayer, for instance. Yeah. That's probably beyond the power that's given under Merkel on here.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But the tax deduction is one thing, but a tax credit.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: But it's federal system. It's federal. Yeah. One level we wanna be tested because we wanna be able to give to these organizations for under appropriate answer, and especially because it's only federal tax credit.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: But really, the the state has control over organizing the SGOs. So anything beyond that is difficult. Mhmm.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: It's fine.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Feed the liability. Credit exceeds their liability will not receive the difference. Okay.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: So it's not a problem.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Uh-huh. It's yes. Okay. That was important to me. They'll be able to carry forward their unused credits. Okay.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Will

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: not be allowed to claim both the scholarship contribution tax credit and the itemized deduction for charitable contributions. Okay.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: So that's typical in federal tax policy.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Right, right.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: No double counting for these sorts of things.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Will reduce federal revenues by 26,000,000,000 for the next ten years. I mean, that's generally the philosophical problem with the tax credit is tax deduction.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: My take away from that large number is that they really think that there's a lot of people in this country who want to give a lot of money to for scholarships or education.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, that's why I'm just worried about who's eligible to receive the money so it doesn't open up a whole new category of

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Organization.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: You can you could plug limits on the omni organizations. Mhmm. Like, it's being done already

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: here. Right.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: So if you wanted if you wanted mean testing for the students receiving

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Mhmm.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: A scholarship, then then that could be done through putting extra requirements on SGOs that will be recognized per month. So you could do that.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Right.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: But as far as me testing as a replacement taxpayer, that would be trying to modify about the federal law aspect of this. At this moment, just off the cuff, I'm not seeing a pathway from Vermont to be

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: able to do that. So what's your issue?

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm trying to make sure I understand the impact this has and what kind of organizations

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Can receive the money and and

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It sounds like through this, a new organization can't crop up to receive the money.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: It would have to be approved to be approved by the governor.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And fit within the parameters of

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah. Yeah. I see here from the

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah. And

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: this, you know, this bill also has a little additional language giving the governor express power to audit these orientations and so look into it to try to,

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: you know,

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: bad organization.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I mean, says so one thing it says is the requirements they must meet are interesting, and a scholarship granting organization must spend at least 90% of its income on scholarships for eligible students. As a result of this requirement, it's likely that qualified SGOs will be either newly created nonprofits or institutions already operating in states with existing tax credit scholarship programs because they have similar requirements. Other requirements they must meet offering scholarships to at least 10 students who do not all attend the same school, not offering scholarships for non qualified expenses, not near market contributions for a particular student, verifying the income and family size, etcetera. So that's interesting. These are probably entities that in many cases will need to be set up just to provide scholarships.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: That's the expectation.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. And

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: that's, I think, why Senator Bongartz is interested in getting to state law out there. Right. So these could be forged in the lead up to this becoming effective. Okay.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Hit the ground. Yeah, it's possible. There'll only be one or two. Right. Right. It could be under one statewide organization that exists. They have to have a five zero one C three under it. Or or it has to be five one C three. Yeah. Yeah.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So so these cannot go to an elementary or secondary education institution itself?

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: It's directly to the students.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But it so it cannot provide scholarships to elementary and secondary education. That's the whole point. Right? It should go to something else because otherwise it says these scholarships may also be referred to as vouchers, but the provision of a tax credit in exchange for a donation to an SGO separates these programs from more traditional voucher programs.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Wanted to be brought up by hand for the approved kids and for those that

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: are not attending a school. Right.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: It might be an after school program. Sure. Sure. Sure.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: That makes a lot of sense. Okay. I just now it makes sense. Yeah. Right. Bill could be simple, but

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So. With that, by the way, I'm not the Russian ambassador, anybody has any qualms at all. If not, if we just did it, if we were then just talking about after school program, summer programs, tutoring on summer programs, that could change where he's going to make. Who's our clerk? Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. There was our clerk, right? Yes. Yeah. Senator Williams, your first your first job. Oh. Almost headache. Thank you. So we actually need a motion to do the strike off with something to add us for that tiny change. So, couple months ago, further discussion, it is +1 61. Should we get that light? Yes. Yes. +1 61. Okay. Sergeant Hashim.

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Sergeant Heffernan. Yes. So I have all been there? Yes. Several weeks?

[Senator David Weeks (Vice Chair)]: Yes. December Williams? Yes. It's Sarah Jongartz? Yes.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Good. 500. So, Kirk, you could, like, twenty minutes. Yeah. It's all important. With passion comes responsibility. Yes. I

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: do we think because it it you don't think it needs to go finance?

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, that's that's what I'm doing. Okay. That's gonna that's gonna be a set of call. Yeah. Because it's a federal at the heart of it, I don't think.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It a would. I'm just curious. Yeah. I think they'll want to know more about it.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So is that set up as if it's the strike offer? Okay. So most of us are to be surprised that we can say yes. I we're almost Oh, we might have thought it's a good chair. Well, it's alright. Autumn back this year. It's a good deal. Well, we have if you want a quick break?

[Kirby Gaimler (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. Yeah.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: K. At 02:30, we have John's gonna