Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Addison District)]: We're live.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Okay. Senate Education Committee, January 22, August 26. The first supporter will be joined shortly for the next portions of the afternoon by the House Education Committee. But we are starting today just our own committee hearing, doing a bill introduction, s two thirty two, an act of leading to public libraries and the Department of Libraries. And we're starting with the sponsor, senator Rutland of Addison County.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Addison District)]: Thank you, mister chair. As chair said, I'm senator Rutland from Addison District. Thank you so much for having me in to talk to you about S-two 32. Just a little bit

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I'm tired of this, but I realize we should probably introduce ourselves.

[Evy Williams (Vermont Library Association Vice President; Assistant Director, Rutland Free Library)]: Yeah, go for it.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: I'm used to everybody knowing us.

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: So over here are my-

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Good afternoon. Senator David Weeks representing Rutland County. Senator Seth Bongartz from the Bennington Senate District, the chair of the committee.

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: Senator Terry Williams, also representing Rutland County.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Senator Heffernan representing Addison County District.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Addison District)]: Okay. Thanks again. So S-two 32 is the next in a series of bills I've introduced over the last few years about public libraries. You have worked at least one of those bills. The first bill was about creating a status of libraries report for the state of Vermont. And librarians came through with flying colors and produced a massive report about the status of libraries, 700 pages, if you're interested. But I think it's just a testament to how important libraries are to our state. We all have public libraries and school libraries and academic libraries and other libraries in our districts, and people use them every day for really important things. And of course, you know all standard ways that people use them. Past fall, I've noted a few articles about the ways that public libraries were being used in other ways that I hadn't thought about. For example, one was there's a new program for public libraries to help Vermonters test whether their wood has been seasoned well enough to burn their fireplaces. So there's a moisture tester that you can get at your library and they can help you with your firewood. And then another program is using public library space and the internet connection for telehealth So that in some of the really rural parts of our state, there may not be an appropriate doctor's office or a place with internet. So public libraries are stepping up to do that as well, among the hundreds of many other things that they do. So there was also a bill a couple of years ago that I believe Senator Weeks worked on, and maybe Senator Williams, about public libraries that came through the education committee. So this is the next bill that also works from a lot of recommendations that were in that extensive report. And I worked with the Vermont Library Association, and I think you'll hear from some of their members today. And you might be hearing from libraries in your districts because we all have them. So the bill starts with some findings, which I think are probably pretty obvious to all of us about what libraries do. I want to point out especially the thing about early literacy, because I know this committee has worked on literacy bills, and this is a particular focus given the news about our declining test scores for early literacy. So public libraries have a really important role to play to help young kids learn how to read. And this bill helps further that goal. The first thing the bill does in section two after the findings that are in section one is create a Vermont Libraries Day. And this was something that the Library Association suggested as a way to help promote libraries so that people know what libraries are doing and where they're located, all the services they can provide, and it gives librarians a chance to celebrate their libraries. Excuse me. We chose the month of October. That was their request. We didn't want to interfere with Indigenous Peoples Day. So chose the third Monday in October as Vermont Libraries Day. This would not be a holiday. This is just a day to mark libraries. So no worries about when people get the day off or whatever. That's not what this is. This is just a day to celebrate libraries. Second part of the section starting in section three, what the bill does is makes explicit what programs libraries are eligible for funding. I think there's been some gray area. Some people think they're eligible, some people think they're not eligible. But these are programs that libraries do work in. So after school and summer programs. I think probably all of you know you've all probably been to your library during the summer or after school hours, and there are lots of kids in there doing summer reading programs or doing after school projects, sometimes crafts, sometimes technology, sometimes lots of different types of programs for all ages of kids. And this would just make explicit that public libraries are eligible for this program and that they should receive a reasonable portion. And I think you'll hear from the state librarian for suggestions on that language to make sure that they get funding to do the statewide summer reading program that they do that so many kids enjoy throughout the state. And that is helpful for early literacy. It would also add the state librarian to the advisory committee for this funding so that the state librarian has a seat at the table to make sure that the allocation of those funds are going to programs that are indeed helping kids and libraries advance literacy. It would also include public libraries in an early education program, making it clear that a community organization includes school districts and public libraries and other agencies that do early childhood programming, including early childhood literacy. I spent a lot of time when my kids were little with my kids at the library, part in these early education programs, reading circles and story times. And this is a great tradition and a really, really helpful early meeting opportunity that we should make sure is included in the early education grants. And then there's the next section, starting section five, is just amending the statutes that cover the Department of Libraries to make sure that the definition of collection is comprehensive digital or physical collection. And this is just updating and at the state librarian can explain more about why this is important. But right now it just says physical, it's silent as to what kind of collection and as you know, books are part of their collection, but there are also lots of online and digital databases and access to ebooks and things like that are part of the library's collection. Starting in section six, this adds a duty to the Department of Libraries, which they already do in some form, but this would just make more explicit that it has to be public and put on their website. And I'm sure the state librarian has more information about this. That would talk about all the ways that municipal libraries can be supported through grants and programs. And also, the reason there's a consultation with the Vermont Bond Bank, and when you're thinking about other witnesses to have in, I highly recommend that you have Ken Lange from the Vermont Bond Bank. He is the contact of the Vermont Bond Bank that might work with libraries if their town is going for a bond, and he is also a former librarian. So he's really knowledgeable, great witness, and he can tell you all of the ways that libraries can be supported through the work of the Vermont Bond Bank. They sent me just this morning a spreadsheet with the last twenty five years of funding that's gone to libraries. But the point of having this in here is not all libraries know that this is a resource. So this is really just to help libraries have a one stop shop where they can go and be like, Oh, these are things that we're eligible for that we could apply for or take part in. And then there's an update to statutes relating to municipal bonds in that it's making clear that public libraries can be included in this municipal bonds. I think that many towns, including my hometown of Middlebury that just passed a bond to upgrade and expand our library notice, but not all towns are taking into consideration that public libraries are part of municipal infrastructure for bonding purposes. So again, it's not doing anything but making clear that they're eligible. Yes.

[Senator David Weeks (Rutland County, Vice Chair)]: Second, Senator Rutland. Page six, paragraph 12, which department are you referring to? Department of Libraries. Okay, just wanna make sure.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Addison District)]: Yeah, sure. And then section eight, this is about municipal planning grants and the performance grants for municipalities. Again, just making sure that public libraries are included in those municipal planning grants so that when a town is redoing their plan or when they might be applying for grants to implement their plan or whatever, that they're taking into consideration their public library. So much of this bill is just making it clear that libraries are included and should be included and are an important resource for our communities and obviously for our kids' literacy. So that, and then of course the effective date is July 1.

[Evy Williams (Vermont Library Association Vice President; Assistant Director, Rutland Free Library)]: Yeah, happy to answer questions.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Questions?

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: I have one. So I remember last biennium, we had a big go around about funding for the after school program. And the marijuana tax money that was designated that everybody wanted to go through the LEAs, but it ended up that it had to be go had to go through the to the nonprofits

[Senator David Weeks (Rutland County, Vice Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: That were doing that. So are we are we gonna have to undo a regulation

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: to make

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: this happen, or can we just include the libraries in the after school program?

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Addison District)]: Yes, the latter. I don't think we have to undo any or rehash that battle. It's just saying that libraries are an eligible entity to receive those funds. They do after school and summer programming. And a lot of those after school programs, in fact, go to the library to enhance their programs themselves. So, if the library doesn't have sufficient money to do their programming, then it's also taking away from other after school programs.

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: Yeah. So, another thing, a lot of your smaller towns have after school programs, but they don't take in that particular funding stream of that. And I know that probably a lot of parents would like to have their children involved in a summer reading program. So I think we'd have to incorporate that into the after school program.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Addison District)]: Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. Some of the small towns, they don't have resources for a

[Evy Williams (Vermont Library Association Vice President; Assistant Director, Rutland Free Library)]: lot

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Addison District)]: of the sort of more comprehensive programs that in Senator Heffernan's and my district, Middlebury, Bristol, Virginia, they have the ability to do these, but some of the smaller towns don't have it, but they have a library. Moncton, Starksboro, Salisbury, all these smaller towns have libraries and those libraries could be used for after school programming even more than they already are or summer programming. But I think you'll hear from the state librarian and others that they're not getting part of that funding and that's making it really hard for them

[Evy Williams (Vermont Library Association Vice President; Assistant Director, Rutland Free Library)]: to afford their program.

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: So what's the mechanism to make that happen? I know in Rolland County, the Boys and Girls Club of America in Rolland, and now they've they've extended into, I think, West Elmwood and Fair Haven.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Addison District)]: Yeah. So I think this bill is the mechanism to make that happen. And the state librarian, I think, will have some suggestions about language that might clarify a little bit more, which is totally great. So I think we want to make sure that those programs are fully supported because they're crucial to especially really small communities that might not have access to other things.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yes. And looking through it doesn't look like it's going to impose any new taxes at all.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Addison District)]: Concerning. No new appropriations. These are all existing programs. These are all existing funding sources. And so nothing no This

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: will help them maybe get a little bit more piece of the pie that that's out there.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Addison District)]: And I think what it does is it clarifies that they are eligible to get a piece of the pie. So that I think there's been some question like, what do libraries count? And my answer always is yes, libraries count, but I wanna make sure that it says that in statute, and the libraries pay too as well.

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: Thank you.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: A lot of libraries around Vermont are not municipal libraries.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Addison District)]: They're Are

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: treated the same under this bill?

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Addison District)]: Yes, they are. There a

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: section of bonding perhaps because on the municipal library, it would be?

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Addison District)]: My understanding, and that's a good question for Ken, but my understanding is that a non municipal library could still be eligible for a bond in their town as long as they go through the proper agreements and all that stuff. But Ken will be able to explain and answer that question better. Yeah, the library kind of oversight is complicated, as is kind of everything in our state, right? But we did last time, two years ago, when Senator Williams and Weeks were on the committee and we did a library bill, we actually clarified the statute there about oversight of municipal versus non municipal libraries. So hopefully that clarification two years ago will help make sure that it's clear this time around. But Ken will know. He'll be able to explain it better than me. And Tucker will, because he is the king of all library statutes. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you so much for taking up the bill and talking about libraries. I think it might be a little bit easier lift than the others you guys have to do. So have fun, and I really appreciate your time today.

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: Thank you.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So maybe we'll go out of order on the agenda just to make sure because we have people here and we must be done by 02:15. So why don't we go to the people here from the Library Association, starting with Amy Williams. Or actually, by the way, there's three of you. You can do it whenever you want to. Amy Williams, Margaret Woodruff, and Carolyn Dewayne. And if you wanna come up together, that's fine too. It's a Okay. So which two are you?

[Evy Williams (Vermont Library Association Vice President; Assistant Director, Rutland Free Library)]: I'm Katie Williams, this is Margaret Woodham.

[Margaret Woodruff (Director, Charlotte Library; Chair, VLA Government Relations Committee)]: He's the Vice President of the Vermont Library Association and Assistant Director at Upland Green Librarian. I'm the Chair of the Government Relations Committee and the Director of Charlotte.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: All right. So you've introduced yourselves, and the floor is yours.

[Evy Williams (Vermont Library Association Vice President; Assistant Director, Rutland Free Library)]: Thank you, Senator Bongartz, for giving us the opportunity to be with her today. Senator Hashim, birth co sponsoring of S-two 32. I just want to explain to you a little bit about who we're representing today. The VLA is a nonprofit volunteer driven organization. Its members are the two zero two public and academic libraries throughout Vermont. So by public identity, both the incorporated and the genus form. Vermont Library did not have a centralized governance body, So the Vermont Library Association works to support each other, collaborative problem solving, and to develop and promote and improve libraries, brainstorm together how we can get that done. The important position that libraries are in now is that they've stopped being quiet reading rooms a really long time ago. They're loud now, they're frequently messy. We see everybody, we wanna see everybody. Books are half of it. They're important. We're pretty broad as community spaces at this point, and that's great and also a challenge. So that comes up a lot in BLA as the libraries look to establish their priorities.

[Margaret Woodruff (Director, Charlotte Library; Chair, VLA Government Relations Committee)]: So, and we're here today to talk about how S-two 32 can help us do that. Many remote libraries face huge capital needs to offer spaces that are safe and accessible for everybody who wants to come there. According to the Vermont Department of Libraries, Vermont library buildings are in need of $260,000,000 worth of basic improvements and deferred maintenance. And so, the Vermont Library Association has identified capital funding for libraries as a top priority. From the largest libraries, like the Rutland Free to the smallest library in our state, the Charles D. Brainard Library in West Anvil, many of these treasured institutions need substantial improvements and repairs to meet safety and access standards, as well as to provide the services and resources that our communities have come to rely on us. The 2023 working group report on the status of libraries that Senator Hardy referenced highlighted this critical situation to call for the establishment of ongoing funding for capital improvements of library buildings. The urgency was further substantiated by the recent results of the Vermont Department of Libraries Building Survey. Senator Hardy also mentioned the importance of highlighting the connection or the availability of loans and things through the Bond Bank. In Charlotte, we completed a much needed expansion renovation project in 2020 that has transformed our space into a community hub, which is Evie was describing. Busy at all times

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: a

[Margaret Woodruff (Director, Charlotte Library; Chair, VLA Government Relations Committee)]: day, story times, cooking lessons, book discussions, health consultations. But this improvement to our building and to the services we're able to provide would not have been possible without a bond through the Vermont Bond Bank. Was voted at the Charlottetown meeting in 2019. And based on my very loose calculations, and I'm terrible at math, but it's about less than $25 per household every year to meet the obligations of the bond. And I would say that that's more than offset by the value that we brought back to our community in terms of the service we're now able to provide. As Senator Hardy mentioned, staff at the Vermont Fund Bank, and I had the opportunity to meet with them as well, have expressed continued willingness to work with municipalities to pursue library related projects in an accessible and a fiscally responsible manner, and we believe that S-two 32 would help create a more direct path for those really important projects.

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: Good question, sure. Yes. So the money that would be realized from this bill would be going not only to execute the program but for much needed maintenance. Do we have any kind of a fiscal note on what we're looking at for needs for construction? I know Rutland I did two of the Rutland Library recently and Yeah. And that some of these buildings are on a national historic landmark. So they have to have special construction consideration.

[Margaret Woodruff (Director, Charlotte Library; Chair, VLA Government Relations Committee)]: Yeah, I couldn't begin to speak to that, but I mean, there is a $260,000,000 price tag that I referenced earlier.

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: I think the city of Rowan owns that building, too, don't they?

[Evy Williams (Vermont Library Association Vice President; Assistant Director, Rutland Free Library)]: I don't know the exact amount on that. I do know that while Rutland, our problems are pretty eye catching. I consider our building an indicator species because we've done the research. The problems that we're having at our building are going to come up later to other libraries who haven't had that yet. Can I ask, I think, Senator Williams, what you're asking is if it's one lump of money and if we're requesting for some of the marijuana tax dollars that are going to after school to also be put towards buildings? No.

[Margaret Woodruff (Director, Charlotte Library; Chair, VLA Government Relations Committee)]: And two totally different, two different aspects of the money. Okay.

[Senator David Weeks (Rutland County, Vice Chair)]: Okay. Senator Weeks. Yeah. Just for clarification, if you remember, Senator Harvey said this this particular bill doesn't have any financial impact whatsoever but it does to the to the point of the the two ladies testifying require that the bond bank work with the Department of Libraries for funding options or processes or what have you.

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: It definitely gives visibility to the needs of the libraries.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Are there

[Catherine Del Neo (State Librarian; Commissioner, Department of Libraries)]: any further questions before we finish?

[Evy Williams (Vermont Library Association Vice President; Assistant Director, Rutland Free Library)]: Sorry. This is a big finale. Concerning early literacy, libraries have always already played a very involved role in the public literacy. My Library, Rutland Free, we've been partnering with an outside organization since 2020 to get books mailed to kids zero through five. So we partner with them, it's very much a partnership. And that group is staffed by volunteers, and they do all their own fundraising, which they do have to do continually to get this program running. And then at five, we hold this annual graduation and they come into the Fox Room and we take them right down and get them library cards to try

[Catherine Del Neo (State Librarian; Commissioner, Department of Libraries)]: to create

[Evy Williams (Vermont Library Association Vice President; Assistant Director, Rutland Free Library)]: that continuum of literacy. Another thing that we've been doing for several years now is our children's librarian, and we're fortunate enough to finally get a part time young adult librarian, do outreach to schools. So once or twice a week, they are at Epic. They are at Tapestry for the last two and a half to three hours of their work day. So they're already doing the things that need the support, that they love doing them, that's where we wanna be. Lastly, in October, we would like to, the day to celebrate libraries, and as Senator Hardy said, just take a megaphone, kind of all of the things that we do, which just has a brief list, warming centers, summer lunches, dementia friendly spaces, access to employment resources, and as Senator Hardy mentioned, moisture readers, telehealth. So we'd like the data to talk about it. Are there any questions?

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: Thank you. Yes, one for sure. So

[Senator David Weeks (Rutland County, Vice Chair)]: in bill that's $2.32. There's a section on universal after school and summer special funds and such. I'm just wondering kind of a play devil's advocate. Stop is this is a daily could be a daily obligation. The stop is there. Stop is probably a combination of aid and volunteers. Are we looking to more institutionalize the relationship between after school and libraries by adding them to potentially gain from a slice of this fund? Is this something that everyone's ready and willing to do? And does it change the complexion of the staff in a way that public school or public libraries can accommodate?

[Evy Williams (Vermont Library Association Vice President; Assistant Director, Rutland Free Library)]: I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of that question. Libraries always need to be flexible, and staffing is always a big factor in the services we're able to provide. We know that if we are given more, we can do more. So I don't have an exact plan depending on the funding delivery, whether it covers staffing or whether it typically covers materials of how we would use that support, but we would find a way. It would depend on.

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: Thank you.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: The answer I thought you might give in part to that question, because I want to test it, is we're already doing it. Is that correct? Or is that true in some instances and not in others? What's the rule of thumb around that? I know where I live, there's some major after school program.

[Margaret Woodruff (Director, Charlotte Library; Chair, VLA Government Relations Committee)]: I think that speaks to, and that sort of what Amy referred to, speaks to the individuality of libraries that every library in every town, part of what makes them the wonderful spaces they are, is they seek to meet the community needs of their particular location. And we are already doing a lot, and I think we all want to be doing as much as we can help boost early literacy, to help maintain children's connections to books and other resources. I think if we had the opportunity to have access to those funds, there's no question that we would make good use of them.

[Senator David Weeks (Rutland County, Vice Chair)]: Yes. Theoretically, would this after school program support be predicated on whether you're actually providing services? Or is it conceptual in that the library department would receive a chunk of money and then distribute it?

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: Of putting the arc for the horse.

[Evy Williams (Vermont Library Association Vice President; Assistant Director, Rutland Free Library)]: Are you asking if the funding structure of the money would make it such that that we wouldn't have to spend it on what we got.

[Senator David Weeks (Rutland County, Vice Chair)]: My question the state's librarian's got her hand up. Maybe she

[Evy Williams (Vermont Library Association Vice President; Assistant Director, Rutland Free Library)]: I I'm being one of

[Catherine Del Neo (State Librarian; Commissioner, Department of Libraries)]: the speakers. I have testimony.

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: Just I wanna thank you for the testimony and my overall support, what you're trying to do. I think we just need to find a mechanism to work it out. A lot of moving parts.

[Evy Williams (Vermont Library Association Vice President; Assistant Director, Rutland Free Library)]: Yes.

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: Thank you. Have a good one.

[Senator David Weeks (Rutland County, Vice Chair)]: Thank you.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So now you are now you're on you're actually up officially.

[Catherine Del Neo (State Librarian; Commissioner, Department of Libraries)]: Good afternoon, senators. Thank you so much for inviting us here today. I know that we have limited time, but a full schedule. My name is Catherine Del Neaux. I'm the state librarian and the commissioner of the Department of Libraries, which is housed in the Agency of Education. For some of us, we've met quite a lot in the past, and it's wonderful to see Senator Weeks and Williams and Hashim again. We worked together a few sessions ago. And for those of you who I've not met before and worked with, you should know that I'm happy to talk about libraries whenever. From the drop of a dime, I will be here. So if you don't finish getting through this content today, I'm happy to come back and answer any questions you have. I really appreciate the efforts that Senator Hardy and the senators who proposed this bill and who sponsored it have put forward this continual movement to improve clarity about libraries, to promote the great work that libraries do in Vermont, to bring some daylight to what the Department of Libraries does behind the scenes to support all of our library colleagues in public and school and academic libraries throughout the state and special libraries. And the tools that our public libraries particularly need to do the work that they are already doing in some cases or are being called on to do. So I've shared, it's a four page document with you that goes section by section through the bill and provides the department's perspective on it. And I'll just hit some highlights today because I know that we're very short on time. So first off, who doesn't support Library's Day? I think that's the easiest piece of legislation we could ever consider here at the State House. The Department is definitely in support of that. It helps people to remember, yes, libraries exist, yes, we're still out there, and yes, we have things for you today, for you and your family. So looking at section three related to the universal afterschool and summer special fund, the department would suggest refining the language in the bill a little bit to be more explicit about exactly what we're asking for here. The money that is already being collected, the 6% cannabis sales tax, is a fair amount of revenue. And right now, it's going toward summer reading programs and after school programs that are administered kind of one by one around the state, people apply for the funds and the funds are granted out. The department would propose that a small portion of those funds, for example, 5% of the 6% or 10% of the 6%. So we're looking at a very small portion of the sales tax in total. We pulled aside for support of the department's summer reading program, which is a statewide program we are already implementing across the state. It would provide a more reliable funding source for the summer reading grants that we give to public libraries annually. I would also suggest that a similar approach could be used for the after school programs. When you look at the way that the after school applications are for this cannabis money, right now, the process is typically a really well established every single day, 03:00 to 08:00 after school program has something that they wish to get funding for. Public libraries operate very differently from that. So they might do individual programs once a month or twice a month. Those programs cost money. The staff can't deliver the programs, bring in the storyteller, bring in the performer, bring in the craft supplies to do the program or the science programs. We have such great programs going on right now. Our librarians in Vermont, the youth librarians have been trained by a cohort from the the Echo Leahy Center and NASA. We have great science programming, but sometimes that requires some extra supplies. We might want to give kids an after school snack so that everybody can be ready and fueled up for the program. I would suggest that a way to approach this might be to have the department grant funds to those libraries that want to do one off additional programs or series of programs, and that that would be something that we could do as an additive thing. Or that the existing committee could have a library specific program, rather than duplicating after school activities, really boosting after school activities, working with the libraries that have the staff to do the programming, not just handing out money and hoping somebody does after school programming. So I'd be happy to talk about those ideas and share what do now in libraries, what my colleagues do now in libraries around the state. But definitely excited about that possibility. For those of you who I've met before, you might have heard me talk about reading books to kids. I was a children's librarian a teen services librarian for many years, providing direct service in New Jersey and in California before returning home to Vermont. I have a special place in my heart for early childhood education and the important role of the librarian in teaching not just the children to love to read, but also teaching parents to read with their children. Last year, in December 2024, we delivered a report to your committee and to the House Education Committee. I have not been called in to testify on that report yet. I would love to testify on that report. I spent my whole Christmas vacation writing. So please have me come back and we can talk about early childhood education and the supports that we may be able to provide with existing funds in addition to what we do now at the Department of Libraries to really bolster that level of professionalism and make sure that even at the smallest libraries, there are libraries that have a lot of staff turnover, that we're able to offer the continuing education that library staff need to provide science based literacy programming for the earliest kids, so that they're ready to read and ready to learn when they get to pre K kindergarten. Because our patrons start when they're born. We don't wait for them to get K-five. So we'd love to come back and talk more about that. With regards to section five about the department's collection, the philosophy major in me begs you to say and, physical and digital, because I don't ever want to be in a library where we don't have a book left. We have a lot of So page five, lines three through page six, line two, the version about 22 BSA, section six zero five, the duties and functions of the different. I'd love for that to say digital and physical. We have Vermonters who use both analog and digital. They are going to continue to, and both are important resources. So let's have them both. We also have some suggestions like removing the word bookwagon. As cute as a bookwagon is, I don't think we've seen one of these kids in one hundred years in the state of Vermont. So I had some recommendations for the language about the collections, to remove the book wagon, and to really focus on interlibrary loan and the department's role supporting interlibrary loans throughout the state, which is how libraries share resources and keep costs down and keep things affordable for over monters. Section six, which begins on page six, line four, which is section six zero six, the other duties and functions of the Department of Libraries, we would really want to dial that in and understand what the intention is with that language a little bit more. The Department currently does a lot to support libraries in seeking grants, writing grants, administering grants. We have continuing education programs. Want to be really sure that the Department doesn't take on a role of telling people how to fill out an application, which could, if they don't get the application, get into some tricky legal territory and litigation for the Department. Absolutely want to support libraries and library staff in applying for, obtaining, and administering grants. And I love the idea of really working more with the bond bank and making that explicit. Because like the summer reading, a library may be able to do something right now, but they don't realize they can do it. And sometimes the people administering programs don't realize that the library is eligible. I want to be careful when we're talking about libraries that we are referring to and this is related to pages seven and eight, line four and page seven through line 15 on page eight, really Wait, I may have gotten lost. Hang on. Is not related to that section. It's related to section six, page six, line 14 through page seven, line three. When we're defining public libraries to really do it the way we do in statute and keep referring back to '22 BSA section 101, and eliminate language about any privately owned municipally supported library because there are some libraries in the state that don't meet the state definition of incorporated libraries. Hopefully they will one day, or they will again one day. But we want to be sure that the monies that are available are to nonprofit entities, not just a private library that doesn't meet the state's definition of public library. And then, finally, I think I've gotten through everything except the very last sections about eligibility for performance grants and the municipal bylaw modernization. To me, this is about planning and planning for your community's growth. And the policy of the general assembly is that a library is essential to the citizens of Vermont. And it's essential not just because they like to read books or it's fun to go to a craft program or a cooking class. It's essential because this is the house of civic society. This is the place where your community comes together to think and to imagine what your community can be and what it is. If that's the case, it is in everybody's best interest to plan for library access. If you grow a community and your library stays the size of a postage stamp, your library staff will have a very hard time serving the bigger community. So the department supports the inclusion of any language that will help people to plan for library service, ensure that people in Vermont continue to have library service, and that libraries will continue to thrive because it helps us to thrive as a society.

[Senator David Weeks (Rutland County, Vice Chair)]: Okay, yes. Quick question. So in our neck of the woods, we went up and down the flagpole on the utility of libraries at Castleton University. When you come back and we continue conversation, can you bring some trend lines about a library utility or use or something to just make us more comfortable of the relevance and continued investment in libraries? That would go a long way to just put that issue to bed before we have to broach it with institutions.

[Catherine Del Neo (State Librarian; Commissioner, Department of Libraries)]: We're not focused on public libraries, so would you like me to bring back information? At the department, we have the most information about the relevance and the usage of

[Senator David Weeks (Rutland County, Vice Chair)]: the I just alluded to the Calciton University Library because it absorbed a lot of oxygen for a long time.

[Evy Williams (Vermont Library Association Vice President; Assistant Director, Rutland Free Library)]: I'd be happy to come back and talk about it.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: you brought a lot of things and a lot of

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: changes that you'd like to see. Could you suggest language for the places that you're because I think we want to have you back with our legislative council, who haven't even

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: done a walkthrough yet, but think having two of

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: you in the room at the same time, but if you could come with some suggested length, doesn't have to be perfect, just enough to get the discussion going so you can have in front of us, that would be really helpful.

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Addison District)]: Okay.

[Senator Terry Williams (Rutland County, Clerk)]: Okay, yeah. So that's why I was I was thinking too is, you know, who drafted the bill because I think you've pretty much laid out the changes you'd like to see in your letter. But always listen. Okay, We have a letter as well? Yeah.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Submitted So you've already done what I have. Okay. Good. We'll send you back then at the same time.

[Catherine Del Neo (State Librarian; Commissioner, Department of Libraries)]: Okay. That would be great. Would love to know.

[Senator Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: On this. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. So we're good. We'll thank you all for coming. This is really interesting. We'll take it up again soon. So we'll to we'll take a quick break. Not to happen, so we want to give a quick break so we can switch over from just our own hearing to joint hearing. So we are on a quick recess and definitely can you

[Senator Ruth Hardy (Addison District)]: silence