Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Multiple community members (unidentified)]: So they're saying.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So on my left. Sure. Afternoon.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Good afternoon everyone I'm Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale I don't want to say that I'm from Chittenden County I'm here but I am and I'm grateful to be here. I served on Senate Education and Senate Economic Development so I've been trying to lead on some of the career technical education work And if anyone sees Bill and Herzla Johnson, please just tell them I say hello. I had the pleasure of serving on recommitting with Bill in the House, and he really loves this area and he taught me a lot about this area. So I think of him often when we're talking about Essex County. Thank you.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan]: Hello, Heffernan, Addison County Senator.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: I live in Bristol. It's been an honor to be here and listen to you all today. I'm Terry Williams, I'm the Senator for Rutland County. It's my second term and on the education committee both of them and I'm happy to be here. Nice to meet you.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan]: I will let Mr. Bongartz kind of go into more detail about what they are wanting to hear from everybody. But basically, the students, faculty, and school board have all done a good job of expressing both the positives and the challenges that we face at the school and community. And I think that is kind of what the Senate Education Committee is looking to hear. If you want to say something, I just ask you to raise your hand. I think this extension cord is long enough to bring over to everybody. So we can just pass the mic around to people that way you don't have to scream. Unfortunately, we can't turn that ear off. So that's just something we're gonna have to do. Okay.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So maybe we can put the mic just here.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan]: Alright, so yeah, we can put the mic here and you can just come ask your question on table. If you do want me to bring the mic to you, that's not a problem.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So just a little more by way of background. This is the first of five stops that we're doing for five districts around Vermont. We're trying to visit districts that are different. To get a feel for this corner of the state, for instance, especially as somebody who lives on the far corner of the state triangular with them in the Southwest Corner. And we're visiting so four schools after this. And the committee's mantra from the start has been to provide, pick out how we provide excellent educational opportunity for every Vermont child. And what we want to do by making these, by doing this little tour before the session starts, hear what districts are doing and what community members have to say about challenges and opportunities in the setting in which you exist and also some of the things that you're doing. We heard a lot today. We had a really wonderful student panel this morning that was worth a trip alone because they obviously love their school. They're all deeply involved in all kinds of activities that are being said or applied. And we tried to draw out those quickly. We tried to get them to tell us something that they wished they had as an opportunity, but they felt they couldn't call them because we heard them from

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: the teachers about how much

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: everybody multitasks and does everything that they do to provide all of those opportunities during school and after because kids spoke so vulgarly about to us. So like I said, that was all that happened today. I've been well worth our trip up here because they were great. And then the teachers were great. But at each stop, we want to spend a couple hours, offer a couple of hours to the community just to way you can ask us questions, but also just tell us about what you want us to know about your area or some of the things that you think we could be doing to help make things work better here or whatever it you want to tell us. We don't have an agenda for you. By the way, do have the list here. And what I'll do each time is ask the person up, then I'm going

[John Castle]: to also say the name of

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: the person who's next. And that chair there is for the on deck person. So, and we're going to try that. Really helpful if you could limit your comments to two minutes just to make sure that everybody gets a chance. And remember to hold the microphone, of course. So, I think with that, we're ready. We may ask you a question too while we're at it, a follow-up. I think Michael Bailey was first, followed by Kyle Bibb. So you're on deck chair. Kyle, you're already on deck, Joe. But if you can have a seat.

[Michael Bailey (Canaan Selectboard Chair)]: I'm not sure that I have to sit down. I came here today thinking that maybe you guys are going to do most of the talking to us because what exactly is going on. I guess I don't have any comments until I hear a little bit about what the plan is for you folks. The Rising Union Bank. What guess I'm So So why

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: don't you stay there? Don't you stay there and let us try to in a way, last year, the first part of let's call that but really last year was the first part. And there's a lot that has to happen this year for it to take effect in whatever shape it ends up taking effect. So by the way, one of the things we want to hear from you is the shape you would like us to keep in mind, the things we'd like us to keep in mind as we are shaping the second part of three. I think the two key components of PAC-seventy three are, maybe the key component is the notion of switching to a foundational program where everybody across one lot would pay the same for a 100 value and each district would get back the same amount per weighted student. So it's a different way of going into the old formula that's from taking half to half at the time we had beer and all the reasons that's not going to take the way we had what was the last century thirty years ago I hope that it would. So that's the first part. The second part is thinking through the government's part of this and as you probably know that there was a mapping task force, the mapping task force did not come up with a map And so I think probably fair to say that we still need to figure out I think after what happened in 2024 with taxes going up the way that they did in the next proposal that happened to result in pretty clear we have to do something about taxes or funding, I should say. Taxes and funding different than we're doing it now. I think foundation formula gets us, heads us in that direction. This year we're really going be figuring out the governance structure. I think across this committee we have different views and just across the committee about how that will work. So we are here today, I think I said in the room with the teacher, we're going be sponges. We want to hear from you about things that you want us to consider as we're thinking about that. That's one of reasons we're working with. You guys will know it's different. And we want to hear from you about the things that you want to make sure get included, the things you want to make sure don't happen as it relates to you. So that's what we're hoping here. I hope that's helpful.

[Michael Bailey (Canaan Selectboard Chair)]: Yeah, that is very helpful. And I guess along those lines, would say you probably hit the nail right on the head. I'm chair of the sub board here in town and I know taxes are becoming a burden to a lot of people. There are a lot of people in town that can no longer pay their property tax, especially seniors. And it is a concern. So I think you guys have brought in the right direction. It is a concern. I know talking to kids and talking to teachers gives you a different perspective. But citizens of the town, people who can no longer pay their taxes, that's a scary thought. So you're on

[Dan (Canaan community member)]: the right What other things we need to hear? Yep. Yep.

[Chris Montoya's spouse (Kirby resident)]: Can I ask if I could just put mean, just

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: because you're the select board chair?

[Unidentified community member (rural equity and funding formula commenter)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: So stay on the hot seat for a little longer. We heard a little bit about housing, construction, trade. Is there anything the Select Board is trying to do to grow the brand list that we should also be supporting? Or that the CTE program here offers the community that if those continue to go away, you're going to have a hard time with your workforce needs.

[Michael Bailey (Canaan Selectboard Chair)]: That's true. I mean, is happening already. The CTE program has been guided quite a bit for the last couple of years. As a select board we did just do a new town plan that we just implemented in March so we are working to try to see but I mean that's a complicated and it's going to take time if you guys are experiencing the same thing.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you. And Kyle is followed by Lucy Bailey.

[Martha Vanderwok]: Yes? Actually, tonight

[Multiple community members (unidentified)]: Okay. So,

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: then that'll be Lucy following Dan. Okay. So, Kyle, you're up.

[Kyle Bibb]: So, the reason I wanted to come in today is that I spent quite a bit of time thinking through some of these local issues the last few years. I was the chair of a committee that looked at an interstate district up here with some of the New Hampshire towns. I'm sure you've probably heard some about that from teachers and other folks. We got several years into, you know, into the work and it sort of stalled out due to a few issues. Know, one of the biggest ones being the disparity in funding between the two states. You know, right now Vermont's like number one in The United States and how much funding they provide per student. The answer was dead last at 50. So when we looked at running a budget, an interstate budget up here, it was, you know, it didn't look great for some of the New Hampshire towns that were providing more kids. But that being said, you know, we still had the opportunity to share some resources. For a couple years the state was allowing us, with the knowledge that we were kind of looking to get married for some of these New Hampshire districts, for letting us share resources, letting us have students cross state lines to go to classes that are operating Holbrook and Pittsburgh. You know, we're still running three high schools up here for two fifty kids, so we, know, we were the reason this committee existed is we're looking to see if there were some savings or some synergies there in between the three different towns. And I think it did create a, you know, good collaborative spirit. Students really enjoyed being able to take offerings from other schools. It allowed us to share teachers. I mean we're competing for resources in a very rural area up here, so we're, you know, stealing teachers from each other in these three small high schools. We're trading staff back and forth. So there's, you know, instead of competing, is there a way that we can kind of all pull in the same direction? I don't think that, you know, I think there's still some interest out there in working with New Hampshire, especially due to our geographic isolation. That's kind of the big issue for us is we don't have a Vermont town next door that we can, you know, consolidate high schools with like, you know, Danville, I know, was talking with St. Johnsbury and some things like that. You know, I mean Newport's an hour away so it's a tough solution for us whereas we have two schools in New Hampshire that are very close by. So that's something I think that we need to take into account in this area. I know you know Secretary French when he was around principal here, so he was very aware of the facts on the ground and the state was very supportive of us looking to merge with New Hampshire. However, you know, there was a lot of, you know, just the same issue that all schools run into with, you know, old rivalries and all the towns wanting the schools to be in their town, just finding some of those barriers to break through, and then number one, vehicle funding. And I know now New Hampshire is working through some of that. There's a case I think before the New Hampshire Supreme Court about adequacy aid in the state that they're working out, so in New Hampshire, you know, ups their contribution that might make things look a little bit different for us. I think it's something we still need to look at up here. I don't know what the end game is. We did save all of our work and we kind of mass it along in case that work know, once again, I think that's something that's an option for us in this area and probably makes some sense. So that's why I wanted to come today and just, you know,

[Unidentified community member (rural equity and funding formula commenter)]: in case there was

[Kyle Bibb]: a question about that.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Yeah, thank you. You're welcome. Thanks. Was on that. Lucy, you're on that.

[Dan (Canaan community member)]: I was on that committee as well. It ended up going nowhere. By the way, state your name, brother. Sorry about that. Okay. So, I don't get too many. So, I'm gonna talk about a tale of two cities, and I'm glad you brought up we're trying to get equal opportunity for all kids in the state, which is really difficult here in Canaan. So in Burlington, if you lose your consumer science program, foods, got you an aspiring chef, it's gone here. In Burlington, they could hop on a bus, mom and dad pick them up, aunt and uncle, grandma and grandpa, and they go to a food club. And they can they can cook, they can go to competitions. Here, schools all we have. If you you let's say let's say you lose your soccer team here. There's not enough kids, you know, it's it's waning. You don't have enough kids. Burlington, hop on a bus grandma, grandpa, aunt, uncle, mom and dad pick you up. You go to the sports complex and there's traveling teams. You could still do that. It's it's one of those things where the school is all these kids have. And once you lose something here, it's gone. And funding wise, if it is a snowball effect, because Canaan, we have kids coming from Leamington, Norton, Stewartstown, and even sometimes Cobre. And the less we have here, the less kids are gonna come here, less money we generate into the program. And so let's say we take, you know, let's say we started at $20,000 per kid from the Ed Fund coming here, All of a sudden it's down 15 or 16,000. That leaves a $506,100,000 dollars loss here that we have to make up locally. I don't know when you drove in here, you looked around. Not a big tax base. We have a lot of senior citizens, people on fixed incomes here. So if you're talking about equal opportunity, equal education for all kids in the state of Vermont, it's gonna get tougher. I'm going under the premise that we're going keep our SU and keep our school. Because I don't see us going anywhere else. Seems like just logistically, even if we did go to Newport, it would be really difficult for any kid to even have an opportunity to play sports after school. It's just, you know, to get home 10:11 o'clock at night, getting up at six in the morning, doing it all again. And that would be basketball. Soccer would be a little different.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And yeah. Please go ahead.

[Multiple community members (unidentified)]: I I maybe could ask

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: some of the folks who were involved in that collaborative process.

[Dan (Canaan community member)]: I was involved with it.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Did you get far enough along that you have a sketch written down that's public about where the high school would be, where the CTE would be, where the elementary school would

[Unidentified community member (rural equity and funding formula commenter)]: That was the biggest challenge.

[Chris Montoya]: And there was

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: a spot somewhere?

[Kyle Bibb]: We didn't put it to a vote. We didn't feel like the vote was there. We did a budget. We did a plan.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: It probably

[Dan (Canaan community member)]: should have gone to a vote. But the problem was, yeah, there's a lot of proud people up here. And this community is proud. And we have funded our education, and we have been fiscally responsible up here. And I felt, it was just one one man's opinion here. Last year when

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: we got when we had

[Dan (Canaan community member)]: to go back to twenty fourteen rates, we got kicked. And we got kicked hard because we have been fiscally responsible here. And at that point, you know, what a time to be a superintendent here. What a time to be on the board. Oh my gosh. How difficult is that? And then coming in front of the public and asking for more money, it's

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: gonna get harder and harder. We've heard that in the last session. Yeah. About the fact that you get hit against us spending pressure. And because you don't have a lot of you got fixed costs and not enough at least to spread the spread those costs. So it looks like your high spend is what in fact, you're very efficient. You heard that.

[Dan (Canaan community member)]: We we have been extremely efficient and then all of a sudden, get fined $230,000 And what does that mean here? That means a lot more here than it does in Burlington. That's two teachers and a bus. We lost the bus.

[Lucy Daley (Leamington resident)]: Lucy Daley from Levington. I choose to send my kids to Canaan because it's where I went to school and the quality of the education I was felt was warm. And we used to have a great CTE program, Building Trades, and that was two blocks a day with the one teacher, and now it's all cut in half, each of these programs. And my son is thriving in these programs. Now that he's a junior, can he take more of these classes and he's having an awesome time and it's the best thing ever for him. And my daughter wants to do the EMS program next year, but that's gotten high, so we might not even have that. So what the heck's the point of sending my kids to school here when they could potentially get that, say, in Colbert, New Hampshire, or I guess I could send them to Pittsburgh, I could send them anywhere because we have choice. And it's just, this is not the school that I knew. It's not the same and they're cutting everything and like Dan said, in twenty fourteen numbers, the tax rates, and I am a tax collector in Bloomington. I'm the treasurer in Bloomington, and it costs us pretty much the same, if not more, per student, it seems, to educate them. It doesn't matter what school they go to, it costs us a lot of money. That one big check that I write to the ENSU, I hand deliver it to them. I would hate for them to be like a new quarter jersey or whoever to make that consolidated. That is not the same as it used to be. It would not work for me. I'm not driving out there.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So the point you want us to take, but I think, is it that inadequate funding?

[Lucy Daley (Leamington resident)]: Yes, yes, and they seem to forget about us. We're not part of the state. I mean most of the time I take New Hampshire roads because they're better. They're better. Less bumpy, less windy, everything. Yeah, we have less cops on the Vermont side but I still take the name.

[Chris Montoya's spouse (Kirby resident)]: Okay. Well, I think that's

[Lucy Daley (Leamington resident)]: it. Alright.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Multiple community members (unidentified)]: Next. It's not a daily.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Next. I'm about to do the next event, roughly. Followed by Miles Heder. Miles Heder, you're in the one deck chair. Okay.

[Miles Heder]: I've not been on any of those boards. I'm on always on Supponda Boards. The question that you may or may not be able to answer is, I think we're we as a whole, the state as a whole is going at fixing the problem from the wrong hand. The money is the wrong hand. The funding formula is the wrong hand. When we, when our tax rate for non homestead is now higher than homestead, yeah, there's something really wrong and it was steadily progressing that way compounded with other changes that are made on a school level, funding level, it doesn't do anything for us. You asked a specific question about what are we doing to increase construction and everything. We've lost some of the committees that I've been on trying to get NVDA involved, different sorts of manufacturing plants. At one point, I've got three ring binders about a natural gas plant coming through, firing, being like a depot. That would have worked but for some reason or other all of a sudden it quietly fades away and we have no more control, no more contact and we're stuck where we are. We like where we are, that's why we're still here but we're, it's getting harder and harder to afford to stay here. My past life I was a realtor, for forty years I did real estate work, so tell me how many I used to keep track of my sales by local staying local I stopped doing that about after year eight or nine after that it was people coming in second homes what does that do to us? Slinging hash and changing sheets. Not good. Not good for our kids. We need to look back at the funding. How are we going to fund it? Redistricting isn't going to do isn't going to save us any money. The economies of scale aren't going to work. Because the problem is too drastic. I've run my time. Thank you. Thank you.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: And after Miles, Terry here? Passing? Okay. You can come back if you want to. And then so it's Ashley Rose passing. Sharon Ellingwood? Okay, you're in the audience.

[Unidentified community member (rural equity and funding formula commenter)]: See if I can sneak in for a step. Couple of things just not enough time to talk about, but one is the idea of opportunities. I keep hearing all of our kids equitable opportunities. And I have a hard time with that. More and more we keep moving on because I don't think that translates well for a lot of people. One, you have bigger schools, bigger areas, more opportunities just by the nature of what it is versus rural. But if you could look within the rural areas and look at the opportunities they have and slightly improve it, it may not be equitable to us in Burlington, but what can you actually put in place to help those towns go? Then that leads me to the funding formula. I haven't seen enough information about the funding formula after spending years trying to figure out what the previous formula was. And you mentioned that that's going to help improve things. I think that most people will not believe in that because there's been no tangible example. We did all this talk about redistricting, even in ours, we started pulling numbers out and all kinds of things. If there's a way to present that formula in a practical operational way that people can see it, it would help both lead to that understanding. Because that discussion went on and on with the task force and I kept saying what is it? What's going to do? How's it going to solve it? That's pretty much it. You could, you

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: know what, we have fewer people. I think we can go for three minutes. Oh, okay.

[Unidentified community member (rural equity and funding formula commenter)]: So that to me is huge. The other thing is, I look at the whole thing is what's going happen to the state of Vermont. I moved here four years ago. I left the Philadelphia suburban area at the end of high school saying I don't think I want to live here. I explored lots of places and found a place that I really thought was a good place. I was able to raise my family here. And I look and I've seen it change so much in the state and I just wonder the school issue is one part of life in Vermont, but where are we going as far as what we're going to do? Are we moving farms? Are losing logging? We lost a lot of opportunities that were part of what Vermont consisted of at the time. So for me, what's the identity of Vermont gonna be? We have extremely high health care costs. You can't move in here and build a house. You can't bring enough money in to start a business. So dealing with the schools is one thing. Having come from Kirby, where we've seen farms disappear, and I've talked to other people on boards where they have smaller towns connected to the issues they're with, and they lose their they lost some of the farmlands they've had. They've had a new growth of people come in. Some of them have choice. So I look at the choice that we've had in Kirby, and it's maintained the ability for people to come in, build a house there and have some kind of a job and do it. And I just wonder what we're trying to do with education is catch up with folks we have. I'm wondering, will people come here if there's actually an educational opportunity? You know, I mean, schools are that good and communities are that strong, people might be willing to give up something in order to get something that you can't always buy. So anyway, I've used my time, but thank you very much.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Okay.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Wyra is next. Okay, you're on the

[Multiple community members (unidentified)]: I'll pass.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: You're passing. Okay. Martha Integrowulf, you're a Neodeck Chairman. Okay.

[Sharon Ellingwood]: Hi, Sharon Ellenwood. I'm a resident of Remington, Vermont and I'm on the board for the NDK Choice School District and the board of the Essexual Supervisory Union as well. I'm so pleased that you came here. I want to advocate for all the students in our entire SU when I talk about our geographic isolation and some of the things that make us different. And one of the things that makes us different is we have the most elderly residents per capita in Essex County. One in three are over, I believe, 65. We have the lowest population density of any towns in our state. We have the highest poverty. We have the highest or near highest amount of SNAP population residents. Those are young people. Those are things that make us different and are part of the puzzle that doesn't help us fit in the rest of the Act 73 discussions. I've been attending all the task force meetings and advocating for those statistics. I'm hearing from Secretary Saunders that policy may be top down and being layered, for you to make decisions about layers and carving people out that are different, it's going be a very uphill climb and I'm very worried about that. The foundation formula does not touch the concerns we have, as you explained, with the customer people. We don't have enough to spread that out. And the current foundation formula that is being posed does not even touch anybody in this room, those other residents, those poor residents. It's really important that that is heard. I was also on the committee for exploring the interstates school district. It was almost ten years. There is a website that is active that we maintain that holds all of our work. And I'm really Do you want

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: to name that website just in case?

[Kyle Bibb]: I can get you.

[Sharon Ellingwood]: I believe it's connecticutrivercollaborative.com. All spelled out. And that was a great time sharing students. And I'm from a non operating distance. My students aren't from Cayman, but this kind of advocacy of us joining together with the Act 46 work has raised a lot of voices and elevated a lot of opportunities, as well as some fiscal nomination. I saw a documentary, some town in Maine, about Canada, and they have some similar concerns about their two countries. And somebody in the documentary said, The river is not what divides us, the river is where we meet. And it is very true and that makes it different about our area. Thank you for considering the differences of Essex County and thank you for coming here. Be a little come here. I think everybody would agree with that. I just can't thank you enough for coming here. Somebody's coming here. And we'll come see you. I encourage everybody in this room to come see the committee and listen in all

[Chris Montoya's spouse (Kirby resident)]: the time. Thank you so much.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you so much. Mariah Hartman is on deck.

[Martha Vanderwok]: I'm Martha Vanderwok. I'm on the Kane and Ski Board and the ENSU School Board. There are just two things I wanted to say that I didn't get to say to you earlier. One is the state counts us as one school. When they set the 100 student limit for small schools they were thinking K-five. We have a K-six elementary school with about 90 students and a seven-twelve high school with about 80 students. We also have the Career and Technical Center which happens to be attached to the elementary school. We have two buildings. We do only have one principal. We are on one campus but we are two schools. And if we lose a small school waiting that's half $1,000,000. If any K choice loses their small school waiting because they don't have operating schools it's over $1,000,000 And they don't even have transportation. They are subsidizing transportation for the whole rest of the state. Those parents have to transport those kids unless the schools are going to send the bus like we said with the Leamington and Bloomfield and Martin. The other thing I wanted to talk about a little bit is equity. And I want a second one to add Dan was saying about opportunities for kids. My grandchildren live in Addison County. My granddaughter is going to college on a Fosseys fellowship. She didn't play hockey at Middlebury High School because she had already gone to prep school on a hockey scholarship because she played club hockey. Our kids don't have those opportunities. You know my grandson is in a musical, is in two bands and two jazz bands and has all kinds of community theater. We don't have that. As Dan said the school is the center. It's all these kids have. Yes my son who teaches in Addison County played music on that stage and when he had early morning jazz band his music teacher would pick him up in the morning so he could get here on time. Equity is not equal. We have other things that Chittenden County doesn't have. We have teachers who will do anything for kids. One of my sons used to get pulled out of sixth grade and the science teacher would take him just anywhere they could find space to do extra stuff. Partially because he drove his sixth grade teacher nuts. The joke around here is that he spent so much time in the principal's office that

[Multiple community members (unidentified)]: he got really good at it which

[Martha Vanderwok]: is why he's a principal in Addison Central. But equity is not equal.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: You. So Just to follow-up and it's a little bit for that payment about the difficulty in achieving. Equitable opportunity in this setting, what could you were telling us what you would like us. What could we do to help with that?

[Martha Vanderwok]: I would say we can't be treated like everyone else. We need resources. We have been starved of resources for years. If we could have more resources, if we could share resources in more sensible ways, If you surge resources to us. If we had state support for working with New Hampshire. New Hampshire is looking at redistricting. What are they going to do? We need to start those conversations back up and we need state support to do it. We need, yeah we need money but we also need help and recognition.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: That's really helpful. And by the way the reason that you don't know if it's your superintendent is here because she's I think. We'll I wanna talk to her as well. So yes. And let me by the way Chunk. On back is Chris? Montoya. Montoya. Okay.

[Chris Montoya's spouse (Kirby resident)]: Hi, I'm actually from Kearny in the Choice District. My children go to Riverside And we have been very fortunate in our tiny town that has no center to be welcomed into a larger community. I'm actually a transplant originally from Maryland then Massachusetts. I have never felt the kind of community I have felt in Kirby because of the school that we attend. It's not just our cadre of kids that go there. I've been able to then connect with other people and they've connected back to Riverside because that school exists and creates that community. I do not know that moving to a larger governance, moving to a larger district, would help our town stay together. And I think in terms of my question, looking at the new information about governance and how they would like to propose changing that. My question would be, what's the AOE doing to facilitate some of those, not just mergers, but sharing of resources? Because that's what I'm hearing is needed up here. It's a sharing of resources. We put our taxes into that that department. What are they doing to actively come here and figure it out? Because that's what's needed, is not just turning to everybody here and say, what do you need? But having an organization come and say, let's try and figure this out. Because they are, from what I can hear, already doing the problem solving, and they're not getting the help from the city. They're being told, you figure it out. So I think that's what I want to know is what is the AOE doing instead of just saying, we're going to get rid of the choices. We're going to get rid of the choice district and the private school options, and we're just going to come up with a new funding formula. We want to know what you're doing now with the resources you do have so that we can trust that you're going to do something more if you come to us and ask for more. So I think that's what I want to know, is what is the plan there?

[Chris Montoya]: My name is Chris Montoya. That was my wife. We moved here to Kirby in right before the pandemic. My father-in-law passed away. My mother-in-law said, We want to keep this farm, someone's got to move in with us. I owned a house outside of Boston, moved up here, my kids have grown up here. The community of Kirby is very dependent on the school Riverside School. This past week, I drove all the way down to Connecticut to work for a company using my skills as an electrical engineer. I have brought cap space to the common curve. What I'm hearing from these folks up here is that there isn't a growth in tax base. And if you've got the schools that are doing well in this area, I've got the mobility. A lot of folks around here don't. But if you want to grow that base, you've got to do something better for these communities than what it looks like it's shaping up to happen. Because I've got a four year old who isn't going to be grandfathered in under this program, Best Ivory. So now I got one kid who's not going to the same school as his brothers. I got three kids in that school, and that is very concerning to And, you know, that school is cheaper. By the way, I have extreme learning disabilities as a child and I am watching this school on a shoestring budget do quite a bit for my kid. They're supporting him in all these classes, and they're getting a half hour service from the adjacent school district of the, you know, if they're paying for it. And it is a fraction of cost. And you were reading the report that was put out, the 170 page plan, and the numbers don't quite line up. Our school district gets 19,000 per student or school, rather, gets 19,000 and some change per student, and your report says 21,000. I think you averaged the high schools in with that. Also, I live in that community. I know LI, I know St. Jay Academy, and you're telling me that no one who is from a disadvantaged financial background goes to those schools? I think the data

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: is correct. Are not correct.

[Chris Montoya]: Okay. Well, that's I mean, wife is reading this to me on the way here. Those independent schools are absolutely critical in getting into the region. I hope we can keep them, but more importantly, we need to fill the gaps. And that's what most of those schools are doing in our little corner of the Northeast Kingdom. You know, every area has come up with a different set of solutions, but education is the most appealing thing for young families here. And if we're not growing that and supporting that and sustaining it, you're not going to grow your tax base and this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of Vermont dying.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Austin? Is there an Austin Byron? I can't quite read the last name.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: Jordan?

[Sen. Steven Heffernan]: Okay.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Frank?

[Multiple community members (unidentified)]: John

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Cassill signed up?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: I might have signed you up. Just let John

[Multiple community members (unidentified)]: Kaplan I be think you signed up. Good

[Unidentified community member (rural equity and funding formula commenter)]: afternoon. Good to see you.

[John Castle]: Thanks for making the trip all the way here to Canaan. That's very impressive. I know sometimes it's hard for folks involved with the legislature to even find St. Johnsbury, no less Canaan, so very much appreciated. I'm John Castle, I live in the town of Holland, and if it may have been another couple inches of snow I would have taken my snowmobile, but I did drive in today. And I have come to know this community fairly well over the last couple of years. I have worked with the Essen Snowboard and the administration in a variety of ways and really appreciate how dearly they care about their students here at Canaan Schools, emphasizing schools, two of them, and also the students that are part of any K Choice. And I know they work very hard to advocate for those children, whatever their situation and whatever their opportunities are. I wanted to just share a few reflections with you this afternoon, if

[Chris Montoya]: you don't mind. Great. And

[John Castle]: I know I've had an opportunity to visit with the Senate Ed in the past and appreciate this opportunity on home turf, so to speak. So first, I have a top 10 list for you. And my first five are all related to Act 73. The last five are actually not specific to Act 73. So I think given the current context of where we see things headed, given the preliminary indication of the redistricting task force, I think it will be very difficult for the legislature to move forward with forced mergers. And I'm here to sort of highly encourage that you don't. Certainly, you heard that from me last spring. And I think it would really be very difficult to move that legislation forward. So I think we're certainly looking at a major overhaul revision to Act 73, if not a major, maybe a repeal. I would suggest that, you know, I think it is about 2,500,000 that you have allocated to, the agency of education to support, mergers. I think those funds could be used elsewhere, right? Certainly, I can certainly think of funds that would be supportive for technical assistance for schools to consider voluntary barriers. I am not outwardly against mergers or consolidation where it makes sense. I'm certainly not in favor of forced mergers at a stable level. I think it's reasonable that you have to continue to look at cost containment. I think things like an excess spending threshold, which is back in play now. I know that's not necessarily popular here in Canaan, but I do think it's a reasonable lever for the legislature to use to have downward pressure. I think with downward pressure, districts will make tough decisions and do make tough decisions. I do think we need to look at the drivers, which I think you've heard over and over and over again. You know, health care is such a major driver that's impacting school costs these days. North Country Supervisory Union, where I am on the school board there, and I think it's about 50% increase in costs over the past five years driven by the cost of health care that is. I think we all recognize that the minimum class size provision of Act 73 will have an impact on schools. It will force schools to make some tough decisions around personnel. I personally don't like it, but I understand the legislation and I think it will have an impact. Unfortunately, it will have a disproportionate impact on our smaller schools that struggle with staffing. So I think we want to monitor that very closely and take a look at how that progresses. I'm really going to emphasize strongly no foundation formula. And I think obviously without any major redistricting, I think it would be hard to implement. I think it's problematic for a lot of reasons and I don't think we had really fully analyzed all the cost issues and certainly the impact of special ed. I do think 01/1927 still has merit. And I think we're only in our first year of having built budgets under 01/1927. So I still think there's a value in looking at how that will impact spending over the next several years and the issue around equity. And if you're continually concerned about equity, I think categorical aid is another way to direct funds directly to where it's needed most. Support for small schools. I am really troubled about the State Board of Education is looking at a definition around small by necessity and sparse by necessity. It would be like looking at Vermont. Are we small by necessity or sparse by necessity? We are the most rural state in the union, right, when it comes to education. A higher percentage of our students, I think it's 54%, attend rural schools, which is the highest in the country. So I think we really need to take a strong look at that. I understand the charge that they have, but I think we really need to be careful about finding more ways to provide less money for our small schools. If you look at the study done back in 1997 around small schools, the disposition was very different. There was a willingness to commit to investing in our small schools. That said, I do understand sometimes schools become too small and have to wrestle with those choices. My community made those choices in Holland and it's unfortunate, but I recognize that. I was just at a visiting team down there in New Haven last week and there was a lot of discussion around Beanum and Senator Heffernan was there, and I appreciate your comments. School districts will need to wrestle with that. I think it's really important that school communities have the autonomy and the ability to make those decisions directly. I feel very strongly about that. I also think, again, some of this money that the agency has should go to provide technical assistance for school communities wrestling with closure. People don't realize how challenging that problem is, and it needs to be a very thoughtful process. As a member of the Commission on the Future of Public Education, I know we're providing some recommendations moving forward. I have certainly advocated strongly that there is technical assistance to support schools in navigating the process. Tax relief. But this was all about to begin with, right? I think we really need to focus on tax relief for average Vermonters and look at other states that have done things like recapture. The wealthiest people in our state are doing very well, thanks to the Trump administration. There are states out there that have instituted recapture, right, and have increased millionaire taxes and different things like that, I think we would find there's additional revenue at hand, that we could utilize without taxing our average taxpayers and generating additional income. My last five, alright, I'll be a little quick here. These are all investments. Community schools, right? The return on investment for community schools under Act 67 has been very meaningful. It's really a shame that that appropriation sunsetted this past year. I really encourage you to bring back. That was a really small amount. And I'm not suggesting that communities that already received those funds, but these would be perhaps new grantees or a different scale of new grantees and returning grantees. But I think community schools really has its bang for its buck in terms of reducing things like absenteeism and looking at how we can support integrated services in the schools. Workforce development. We have not fully invested in the kind of workforce development that we need in the state for teachers. And certainly the organization that I am a part of, the Rural Education Collaborative has worked very closely with the agency and other partners,

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: but there

[John Castle]: is a lot more work to be done. The emerging pathways, I guess, appropriation from two years ago is something that I think should be revisited again. I think a small investment will have a large return on investment. Capacity building at the agency. Again, you freely gave them $2,500,000 right, to help consolidate school districts. I think some of those funds can go to meet building core staff, not consultants, right? I think consultants are sometimes really ephemeral and don't have a lasting impact. And I think the agency does need capacity to support the field. I mentioned categorical aid before, and I would say things like mental health supports for our schools. That would be an area to address specific categorical aid. And of course, no surprise, a need for school facilities funding. So that's my top 10 list. Thank you for being here, and I appreciate you listening to our communities.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: That's it for the list. Anybody who didn't speak would like to chime in? Yeah.

[Jamie (Canaan resident)]: So my name is Jamie. I'm a Canaan resident, graduated from Canaan, I have three little boys going to Canaan now. Sharon was right. This is an aging community. And if we don't invest in keeping our children close to home, they are going to leave and who is going to be left to take care of the town and the people left in town. I also think that we need to think about consolidation with New Hampshire. At first, I was not on board with that, but looking at the options that we have, we're kind of strapped. And I would much rather send my children fifteen minutes down the road to New Hampshire than send a five year old an hour away. And if that's not an option, we're gonna have to think about the parents that might homeschool, and that's going to take a working adult out of the workforce that's already strapped and look at the opportunities that children may not have anymore. So I just think that we are in a unique situation where we have to support these kids. I heard once from one of my high school teachers that Kenan's biggest export is our children. And we've had some really successful graduates and to let them do things. And there's a lot to be said for the schools. Thank you. Thank you.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: So anybody else?

[Multiple community members (unidentified)]: What's up? Go ahead.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Oh, right. So, thank you all for coming. Thank you all for the day that we had here. I think maybe one way to put what people, kids from kids, from kids and teachers to all of you wanted us to take away is an understanding of how the elite this situation is, that it doesn't fit into a cookie cutter model, how important the school is for the community and I think also the point that was made a few times that really resonated with me is that for kids almost anything they do is through the school because you're not in an area with otherwise courts or anything else that kids could go to. Everything is through the school. I'm sure other members picked up other things as well that are particularly important, but I think it's just on, we came to this, we came here for a reason. We came here because we knew this was an area with a very small school, very sparse population. And we just wanted to really hear from all of you, as we have done all day, about what that really means. So thank you. I don't know if anybody has anything to add, but thank you.

[Chris Montoya's spouse (Kirby resident)]: I'd always.

[Sen. Seth Bongartz (Chair)]: Thank you

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: very much.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Have fun. Thank you. I think it was incredibly beautiful to start the day with the kids and hear how they feel limitless and supported and protective and passionate about what they have, and then hear about every layer of the community that's making sure they feel that way. I couldn't have asked for anything more beautiful than to hear our young people, you know, treat you all and think of you all as rock stars in their lives, and have dreams and have plans, and then to work backwards to how much everybody's scraping together to make that possible. You have something really beautiful here, and we certainly don't want to harm that, and if we can help it, we will try. I did want to add, you know, the Northeast Kingdom Day was, I think, particularly powerful with who came down and spoke from your community. And I do want to recognize Sharon, because what she pointed out was that you just don't have that many voices in the state house. You have about two voices in a state house. You know, and if one of them is doing something else, that's challenging. So I gave all the kids my card. You should all seek us out and contact us. I know it's one more thing to do, but come visit us. That's why it was important for us to come here, but your voice really does matter. It's just that sometimes it's really not present, and we're gonna have to make sure we work with you and ensure you're heard.

[Sen. Terry Williams (Clerk)]: So this was a listen and learn session. That's the way I viewed it. I was on the other boundary line on the New York State Board and my community side of river to Brunswick, Cleveland too. And we had small towns that send their kids to Granville and Salem, New York. So I know exactly what you're talking about. And I'd like a copy of John's top 10 list if I can get it. You can share it with me. I really appreciate hearing from you. I'm glad you started Katie. We thank you all for participating.