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[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yes, ma'am. Yeah. And we have a draft to look at that He can right now. Okay. Great.
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: Good
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: morning. Welcome everybody back to Senate Economic Development, Housing, and General Affairs. It is Tuesday after Memorial Day. It is Tuesday, May 26. And we are addressing the our housing, our miscellaneous housing bill S three twenty eight which has come back to us from the house. We are proposing to concur with further proposal of amendment. And that further proposal of amendment is what we're looking at right now. And given the Republicans have to leave our caucus, Cameron, if we could just run through the major changes Yes. That I think we've all agreed to in this committee.
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: I will be very quick. This is a draft 2.1. So there's one difference between the version that I sent you and Senator Ram Hinsdale last night, and I'll mention that.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So we'll talk about that.
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: This is s three twenty eight. So this is currently it has every member of this committee on the amendments. They're listed alphabetically. Right. And so you all would move that the senate concur in the House proposal of amendment with further proposal of amendment. First, first instance of amendment is going with your version of the state treasurer's credit facility. So only the increase 12.5, not having the 1% credit facility for off-site construction. Right. Okay. Second instance of amendment for the off-site construction accelerator pilot program, you're adding in VEPSI as a consulted member. Right. So the treasurer has to consult with DHCP, BHFA, VHCB, etcetera, you're adding in VEPSI. Yeah. Third instance of amendment is in the BHIP section where you're striking the change in subsection A, which would have authorized the Department of Housing and Community Development to upfront B hit money. That's being struck. The fourth instance of amendments, you've inserted the word labor in the municipal planning section. So there's changes to the housing element of the municipal plan and part of the changes are requiring those municipalities to look at, I think it was regulatory and physical constraints to being able to meet their housing targets and you added in the word labor. Right. In the fifth instance of amendment, this is what senator Ram Hinsdale had proposed, which is reinserting all of the changes in this section nine that you initially had. So this has the manufactured housing for year round residential development there in the Subdivision B. New language here, or excuse me, keeping the language in Subdivision D that I've highlighted here on page three about changing to a permitted from an allowed and then striking the language
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Which just to remind everybody SNRE was fine with also. Yes. Yeah, So we didn't do anything. We took
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: SNRE was that they are made. Was okay with that change online too. Right. My understanding is and senator Watson came in here at the end of our testimony last time. They were they did not have this change, but it's here because it has a provision that you're adding in to bring this language back in a year. So you're striking it for now, bringing it back in a year and a half. And I'll get to that in just a second. The subdivision E is the language that Senator Ram Hinsdale was proposing to include regarding ADUs and removing the reference to being on an owner occupied lot for ADUs. Right. So the change here in the bottom of this page, page three, is I've removed that new Subdivision 15 Right. Regarding talked about it. Owner occupied duplex or triplex.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: After my rather emotional response, I apologize again. But just to to tie the hands of a a or a municipality who is facing more than fifty percent second homeowners to tie their hands and not allow them to create any ordinance or bylaw about about full time residents, I think is a challenge. I mean, I think this would be a challenge to Well try and defend.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: I do just wanna be clear. There's a difference between a vacant second home and a long term rental. STOH right now is looking at long term short term rental. We have, as a committee, determined that short term rental regulation is still best left to municipalities because it is a problem in specific municipalities. We are now approaching maybe triple taxing short term rentals in some context. So, you know, we were certainly extracting significant value from them, but this says nothing about the the question of short term rentals. This is really focused on this is how a majority of communities get their long term rentals, is
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: a duplex or an ABU. But I wouldn't tie the hands of or what 15 was and what we why we agreed that I thought as a committee to strike it was that we were tying the hands of Oh, that's a different thing. No. ADUs is fine. I mean, we were fine with that.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Right. So it ADUs and duplexes.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I thought it was just ADUs. So
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: I added back in duplexes because ADUs and duplexes are the two things that we have said are permitted uses. Been very clear in our policy that they're permitted. People invest in them, tend to invest in them when they're their primary residence, but they cannot make that investment if it becomes an encumbrance in the future where it has to remain
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That wasn't what we And that's That wasn't my understanding of 15. 15 said that you could not that a municipality could not do a bylaw.
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: This is what the 15
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: it says no bylaw shall require a And we that was what we had our discussion about, which is to
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: And we took out triplexes because duplexes are
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: took out. Right? No. I thought we took out the whole section. That was my understanding. We took out
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Do you mean the strike through on the page before?
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. No. Fifth we have 15, and it said no bylaw shall require duplex or multiunit dwelling with three units to be constructed on an owner occupied lot.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Mhmm.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So we So that to me was and that was what I thought our discussion was about, which is a to tie the hands of a municipality that is now over 50% owned by second homeowners to not allow them to say, okay, fine. If you're gonna build multi units, great, but but or or duplexes, but there has to be a full time resident in one of those. To to tie their hands and say they can't do that is, I think, a little much.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: The eight so
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think that's what I understand 15 doing. Is that right?
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Kind of. The the thinking here is that we spend a lot of time during the HOME Act and then clean up of the HOME Act defining a an ADU and a duplex because sometimes you have attached, a pertinent dwelling units and sometimes you have standalone ADUs. Yeah. And we have made both duplexes and ADUs by right. Correct. Or permitted. Right. That's as close to by right as we Right. Can And so by right should have zero in congress in my mind. And you're saying you're okay with ABUs in somebody's backyard not having to be owner occupied.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But that's a different thing than saying a municipality can't create a bylaw that that require I mean, to build a duplex by right is fine. But what we're but what I thought our discussion was is that, you know, if to tie the hands of a municipality and say you cannot require any full time resident being in a duplex or a multiunit. You can have
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: a long term renter who's a full time resident.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That but it doesn't say that. I mean, it just says no bylaw. It just says you can't create an ordinance that that would prohibit. You can't create an ordinance that prohibits So
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: we passed this originally with triplexes included, and I'm not sure if you have a new concern.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. It's the same concern, which is tying the hands of a municipality if they're over you know, if they're a ton of second homeowners.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: The whole home act was tying the hands of municipalities.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Different. I it it I think it's slightly different. I mean, do you under appreciate my what I'm trying to identify, which is, I mean, I think it's great to have. I think it's great to have.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: I guess what I'm saying is you're okay. You're what you're saying, this is a a policy consideration I'm asking you to fully visualize. Some ADUs are are dwellings that are stand alone. Some accessory dwelling is in a pertinent attachment. Yep. It's either attached or separate. We spent a long time Yeah. Defining duplex as kind of equally in half or, like, one that's pertinent to
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the other. So what you're saying to me is that that what applies for the ABU in in e, is that the same as requiring this week. I mean, you can still require a duplex. You know, you can still have duplexes. But to say they can't be that they can't make a a an ordinance about full time occupancy
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: That's that's been the whole discussion is
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I don't think it has. It's the building the ability to build the duplex for the multi user. That's the discussion. Look. Who owns it or who occupies it is different. I'm just trying to put this word.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: You kept saying, well, that's okay because when the state uses chip money Or Right. No.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: When the state uses vehicle.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: To build it, it has an owner occupation requirement. Correct. This is saying that if that there is no state money involved. Right. And if somebody's investing the large amount of money it still takes anywhere in the state to build a standalone ADU or to create an appurtenant dwelling unit within their existing single family home, they can't go to sell it and get their value back if they're in a municipality that requires it be owner occupied. So we've had a lot of false starts, And we, I mean, we have the opposite problem in some of our Right.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Deeper population. So we we do have opposite problems because in Windsor County, we have towns with over now increasingly more than 50% owned by second homeowners, they are not necessarily creating opportunities for full time renters on any of their properties.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: That we have determined through our tax policy and our housing policy that we are not banning short term rentals at the state level. We are encouraging long term rentals, and we are encouraging municipalities, which many are doing, to make their own short term rental.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I I appreciate that. What my concern is, I do not, and I perceive 15 as a tying of the hands of a municipality if they are facing a situation where they want to be encouraging full time residential development. Yes. They can have duplexes. They can have multiunit. They can have whatever.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Say full time, I'm worried you're not differentiating between owners and long term renters. It can be both. We don't I I hope we don't want to act like long term renters aren't full time resident. No. They are. So that this policy is about you could have an ADU and a single family home or a duplex that both sides have long term renters. If you are talking about not having vacant properties or short term rentals, we have a lot of other policy that now
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I I appreciate that. I'm not even thinking about those right now. I'm just thinking about cutting off one ability for a a town to say, we have a problem here. Any new infill, any new duplex that is gonna be built or any multiunit, whatever. Mhmm. There needs to be a full time resident owning it in I mean, not everyone's gonna do that. On the property. Yeah. That
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: is so that is a problem that dampens the ability of someone to do that because they will have a hard time selling.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So here's a question. Two units. Could we, Ellen and Ken, could we add an e? Is it instead of denying a community or a town the opportunity to try and write what has become a very skewed situation What is Ludlow's the most skewed. So that's that's a short term rental property?
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: No. It's a it is a It's not a
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: of resident full time residents in their town. Wanna get removed. Alright. If they do So I don't have
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Are you so you're talking about vacancy and short term rentals? You know, second month and short term rentals.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. I'm not. I'm talking about this language here that says no bylaws shall require. It shall require that something be owner occupied. That's, to me, you know, that that means a second homeowner could still own duplexes and multi units. And it happened with full time renters. That's that's great. But it's still not owned by a full time resident or it's still not So see, this
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: is where we just disagree that long term renters should be considered full time residents. No. No.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: They are full time residents. You just said otherwise. No. I didn't. Okay. I know. We have to I'll just, yeah, I know. We have to move along. Is there any way to incorporate that in e, or do we just have to keep the stand alone? Because we've got rid of multi units on this in 15 as a result of our conversation. He is I don't think I've got the legislative problem. Is exclusively about how ex is around It's just 80. Okay. 15, let's see how it goes. I would also just see if this becomes a problem for towns. If my concern becomes a problem Okay. I want towns to be able
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: So we could add it to the 2027 sunset.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Could we could we add 15 to the 2020 sunset? No. '20. Whatever. What is the sunset? What year is it?
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: 01/01/2028. Okay. And Could
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: we add section 15 as rewritten as you had rewritten it? Yes. Can we add that to the sunset? Okay. Let's Kesha, let's do that.
[Sen. Thomas Chittenden]: Okay. That's commercially reasonable, so I would not list it. Sorry.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Sorry. Did you have a brilliant idea?
[Sen. Thomas Chittenden]: No.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: We did the ordering course of the.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Lenders didn't. Okay. I think so. I think we're just disagree. Yeah. It's okay. I'm happy.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: It's a policy disagreement. This is this is something committed to look at some things Okay. In the future.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So I'm happy to keep 15 as the new rewriting without the multi units. Just require duplex. Do you
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: have like their ADU?
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: 15 just duplex and strike it as part of the sunset.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Included in part of the sunset. Yeah. Okay. Great.
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. So that's what the sixth instance of amendment here on page four is. Is adding in a new section nine a to add in the language that you struck in the previous section. And this would be effective 01/01/2028. Okay? And so what we will do is we will add in the 15 right below this and we will strike it so it would be part of this change that will go in effect 01/01/2028. Okay. Page five, seventh instance of amendment adds a new section nine b which adds back in the State Community Investment Program language. And then you get to the eighth instance of amendment, which replaces the operative language for the report from our office about common interest communities. So you're inserting this sub four back in. If you remember there was a bill about common interest communities and vegetable gardens, and you all didn't move it forward. You added as part of the study that wasn't in the house bill as it came over, you're adding that in. And then lastly, have the ninth instance of amendment which is striking out the effective date because you need to add that new sunset provision effective 01/01/2028. Okay. Great. So if you want us to make that change, what I'll do is I'll have a new draft. It'll be a draft 3.1 where I will add in section 15 as it was reviewed a minute ago, just duplexes, not triplexes. We'll add that in and then we'll add it in as part of the sunset, and then you'll have a draft 3.1. Great. I
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: think that is good. Okay. We or with those changes, are we okay to concur with further proposal of amendment? With draft three point
[Sen. Thomas Chittenden]: If you do feel settled on that debate, I was struggling because I'm just got, like, four different documents. I was trying to put in context where this this language fits into the broader statute. So I'm comfortable with what you all described, but if you need me to weigh in more indefinitely, I would love to just get this all in one dock and then the full statute for me to have a
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So until it our men are until our proposal of amendment gets incorporated going over back to the house, you won't see it in undocumented. But what I Right. What could we do? This is very helpful.
[Sen. Thomas Chittenden]: I'm comfortable if you two are
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: comfortable. Do we have that?
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. But we because this computer was broke.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Oh, okay. I mean, it's
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: just something Or the computer is a summary. Yes. Which, Thomas, this is the closest we can get, and it shows the changes in each section.
[Sen. Thomas Chittenden]: K. Put put it where
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: you can get yourself.
[Sen. Thomas Chittenden]: I didn't report the bill, so I am comfortable with the where the debate is. I just I don't need to vote one way or
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the other. A way we can I think this is a good way to look at it holistically is, I guess, what I'm saying? Is that is that
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: fair? Will I will give it
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: to you. And do you wanna pass that out on
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the floor? No. Okay. I'm gonna explain. I'm gonna say we have we're we're concurring and, hopefully, we have a straw poll of five zero. We're gonna concur with further proposal amendment, and I'm just gonna walk through the changes.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Okay. And you wanna do the whole bill?
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: You have to do your second.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: No. No. I didn't know if now in this version you want me to do those sections or not. Yeah.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Why don't you? What hey. You're the municipal's army. Why don't you do those? Okay. So if you could give me because I don't think we're gonna do this this morning. I think this will be in this afternoon section.
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But if we could get three point one to us Yes.
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: I I have to go to senate judiciary. Right. And then as soon as you all hit the floor at ten, I will have you a draft 3.1. I'll make sure each committee member has a copy of it. I'll make sure that Jira has a copy of it, and I will also ensure that everybody has a copy of that summary as well. And I will get that to you before 11:00. Okay.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That would be great. Sure. And but this is a really useful way to look at what's new and what is safe.
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: And I will have to amend that a little bit based on
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yes. Yeah. Fine.
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: I just have. But yes. Yeah. Thank you. Those are
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: just the two changes, the sunset and the adding back in the duplex. Yep. Okay.
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: Do I have your leave to go to your companion committee? Absolutely.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So we will have the congress so I think we were gonna shift to seven seven two. We're missing some committee members, which is a problem. And we don't have the witness that we were had that that we were the landlords that are weighing in on on the on the proposal amendment because, again, we okay. So you're going now.
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. The senate judiciary committee asked me to come in and walk through the changes that you all proposed to seven seventy two. Terrific.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Thanks.
[Sen. Thomas Chittenden]: Okay. I'll be
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: back as soon as I'm done.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Great. Thank you very much. Well, you won't be done before ten. So your proposal of amendment, Kesha, on so if we shift to seven seven two
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Mhmm.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: The landlords have weighed in and are a little concerned, as you can imagine, with the Where Angela, I can give you a copy of their letter. Mhmm. They and she couldn't testify, but I'm hoping she could do that, like, what if we are able to regather. Mhmm. There. I I can I can make you both come? Okay. So this went just to you? Yeah. And has MMR copied? I copied Nader too just because he's you know, we're all looking at the this is an amendment. Mhmm. Because it would be an amendment to the bill after we go through the whole thing. And then the hope is that we will then Nader is going to propose to divide the bill and take an undelete. What's hard for me to see is what they're what they're responding to because they were multiple drafts. No. No. The one the final one that I got Friday after our discussion. I don't have that post on the web because we never talked about it during. Oh, okay. It was never, like Yeah. So yeah. So it's not what? It is not Got Got it. Got
[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: it. Okay.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: If you want me to talk about it live, I can. No. I think let's I think
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: it would be more useful for us too. Unless you I I
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: will just say, though, their first concern is the frustration there is they're saying this applies to non payment of rent and breach of the lease agreement. I had always been trying to apply extra disability protection or extra to the damage component. I was trying to be very narrow in my focus. I
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: appreciate. And I would I noted I responded very well. The first two, two and a, are current what came over from the house, and she was fine with that. Mhmm. I think it's the last it's the pointing out the fair housing, but they all have to
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: abide by that whether they're small or large landlords. They they do. I know. And so if she's okay with the written statement, then it's important that that written statement be complete so some a tenant can take it to get legal adviser help.
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think her concern and the landlord's concern generally is that how do we make that not a huge additional burden to a smaller landlord who may not have an office that it could is dedicated and can deal with it.
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Interestingly, she said she uses the language, it works against the goal everyone was trying to accomplish here, a more streamlined and accessible process for both housing providers and tenants. So this gets back to what balanced landlord tenant law looks like. Yep, that's why I wanted to get this done. Accessible, right, to me, for the record, accessible certainly means that if you have a disability, you have more clear information in writing. Also, what we heard about the importance of the written component and making sure that that's very clear is that a case that went to the Supreme Court, I don't think you heard this part, was quite literally just about a landlord who sent multiple different dates on which they expected the tenant to vacate the premises. And the supreme, Cameron left, but what I understand is our our judicial system said, you certainly can't do that. You have to give people some clarity about the time, place, and manner of their their
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: termination of lease. I would I'm hopeful, and you're gonna get an answer from Angela, I hope. Yep. I'm I don't know how much time we're gonna have between the floor session and the afternoon session. Mhmm. Part of me was hoping we're gonna find half an hour to Yeah. And we have
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: an that we need to take for ethics.
[Sen. Thomas Chittenden]: Just got with We
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: are we on the record? Are we
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We are we are live right now,
[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: but I'm Okay. Are we do you wanna do, like, logistics? Okay.
[Sen. Thomas Chittenden]: We do logistics. You wanna go up live?
[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yes. What? Let's