Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Good morning, everybody. Welcome back to Summit Economic Development Housing and General Affairs. It is Friday, May 22. And it's been a launch of Memorial Day weekend, and we are here to review the house of the the senate bill's s three twenty eight. And we're considering incurring with the changes that the house made and with a further proposal of amendment. That's sort of where we are at the moment. And senator Hinsdale has proposed a further proposal of amendment, which we are gonna look at and consider. And it is something that was in our bill that we added to h seven seven five, the other housing bill. They're working in tandem because we never know quite what's gonna live or die here at this time of year. So we're trying to sync up as much as possible those two bills. And this proposal amendment, as much as I understand it, is in our lane, is in our all in our jurisdiction because, otherwise, when it goes back to the house well, first of all, it will be SNRA will ask to see if it isn't in our land. And second, when it goes to the house, the house natural resources will have to

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. I'm just gonna see something that's different than taking possession

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: at this time of year. Well, anything anything slows it down. So I

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I Anything slows it down, but but I I just wanna say there's no there's no rule that requires a bill go to another policy committee. That is

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: a question. I don't we don't control the No. No.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We don't control the house. We don't control the house, and I can't even begin to

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: do the mental gymnastics of doing that.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So we should focus on our team.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Exactly. But I'm also focusing on having this bill to make it all the way. So, Cameron and you the court you the ball is in your court.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: For the record, Cameron Wood, officer Bush said counsel before Do we have a copy of this?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Not quite yet, but it's Oh, okay. Through the changes.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: He never

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: walked me. Sorry. It's yours. Sorry.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Before I get to any, possible amendment, I'm going to talk about the changes from the house, the house proposal of amendment to your bill, S three twenty eight. You had a comments from the chair of the housing committee yesterday, but I wanna make sure that you all would find value in making sure that you're fully aware of the changes that the house is proposed. And forgive me. I am working quickly and. Well, I'm trying to pull up the documents because the other issue here, I can't give you one document right now because it passed the house at the end of the day, two days ago, the house clerk's office has to compile all the amendments into one document and then send it to our office for review. So that is in my to view this morning is to review the house official version. So, unfortunately, I have to walk through kind of three different documents with you. And in the meantime, I am sending Senator Ram Hinsdale's amendment, the edited version right

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: now as we speak.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Here, I did send a request to share.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay,

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: this is what I'm gonna do. The first thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna look at draft 4.2 of the House General and Housing Committee. This is the basis of the bill. There were two additional amendments from the Ways and Means Committee and from the Appropriations Committee, and I will mention those as we've walked through. So on page one, this was mentioned, there's a section one, Common Interest Community Resources. This would require the Secretary of State to provide on its website or otherwise distribute to the public information about Vermont common interest communities. This information shall include the governing statutes. I'll just very quickly, because I know you're pressed for time, so I'm gonna try to be succinct. Feel free to ask me any questions or interrupt me. I will say the same thing.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Chair, are you do you want us to comment on section? At each section, I'm

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: gonna ask us to check it off because we need to vote this out if we can today.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Check it off or not.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Yeah. So I think it's on I think it's on the floor for action today.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It doesn't because it's a proposal coming back in the house, it's not submitted to a committee. So I think you would have to take action or pass it over today. Correct. So

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: okay.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Common Community Resource, I've simply mentioned to the committees, there's nothing really, there's no real operative language here. It required the Secretary of State to provide information to the public about Vermont's common interest communities, including a reference to governing statutes that could be here's a link on our web page, which links back to the general assembly statute that governs common interest communities.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think this is fine. Yep. I would encourage us to check out.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yep. So no harm in it. I also just learned that You're gonna

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: be doing on common interest communities. In

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: some sense. Yes. In some sense. Right. Okay. Next section two. I'm gonna keep moving unless I hear because this the most that we have done Yep.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Impacted our in July.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The next section, service supported housing, was initially in 03/28. So this was This is all was in your bill. Passed out of this committee.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yes,

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: ma'am. This this section was in your bill initially, and then you added it subsequently to July. Right? Where I believe this is just mirrors exactly what you had passed out of committee and stuff like that.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Have they taken it out? No. It was never in It the was never in the

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Okay. The So only check off section two.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The only change here that is in the Appropriations Committee, the House Appropriations Committee report, they're adding in the subsection G, and this was agreed to. Right, this is So the subsection G says that for members of the advisory council who are not otherwise compensated at this time can get a per diem from the Department of Aging and Independent Living space budget. Is in

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the appropriate admissions committee draft one point. So, with everyone's permission, I'm checking that we're okay with this as we pass. Okay.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And, and we're okay with this? This also needs to go in the bill opening it.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It's, it's, It was agreed to on the floor, so it's in the bill, again, I just don't have a single document that Okay, I

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: could give yeah, so we're agreed to with it. Okay, great.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So, section three, I'm now on page four of the underlying House general proposal on draft 4.2. This is the state treasurer's credit facility, and so they went with the House version of this language. If you all remember, there's the increased 12.5%. You all included that in your bill. The house has the additional credit facility of 1% for facilitating housing development through both purchasing of off-site constructed housing.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Mark spoke to this, Mark and Tom spoke to this yesterday, both for the need, the modular housing that it would generate at the capacity that places like Huntington Homes have, like a few granite capacity during the winter. And I believe we have the treasurer's office here to address risk concerns. I know there were some risk concerns, but I think they addressed them in the house, but they knew they were our concerns. And I believe because all loans go through, what do we call the VHFA and other lenders, they don't come from the state. The state is not exposed. They go through third parties to Right. To issue the loans. Yes.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: All the loans

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: go through third parties.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So we can do the credit facility without the manufacturing housing accelerator, and they can decide that that's what they want to use their credit facility for or not.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So, right, so your version just has the increase of 12.5, one could argue that the treasurer, there's really no constraint on what the treasurer uses that credit facility for.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So But it Can I make sure I understand, though, that the 12 b b allows them to to take on more risk, or the 12.5% allows them to take on more risk?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I would say neither allows them to take on more risk. It's doing is it's saying, of that 12.5%, you can use up to 1% for the full purchasing of housing. I would argue it would say you can it's kind of a limitation to say you can only use up to 1% Exactly. For the bulk purchasing of housing.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: For this pile. But does b does what does b do on the bottom of page four? B says b is the middle piece. Right? Like, a, we're increasing your credit facility. Right. B, we're saying you can Right. So can use it profane.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Right.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So what's So you can keep those two and get rid of the accelerator?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The the accelerator pilot is in the next section.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. Well, I'm trying to figure but then two is the thing that says it can only be used for bulk purchasing of things.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So this is what the treasurer's office came with initially, to say we wanna increase to 12 and a half with the overall credit facility, and we want a kind of separate one percent credit facility

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: To be able to do bulk purchasing of housing. However, when you add those two things together, the total amount the total percentage would go to 13.5%. You'd have 12 and a half here and 1% here, So so it will be a total of 13.5% of the state's average cash on hand.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Oh, so a and b take it to 13.5%.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No. But so they they didn't want that. They wanted to keep the cap at 12. Okay. Right? So that's why you have to have b and then the sub two because the b is saying you can have this 1%. We're giving you a credit facility of up to an additional 1%. However, look at lines twenty and twenty one. The total credit facility shall be reduced by an equal amount to any credit facility amount established under this section. That's the operative language to say, if you do this separate 1%, you still have to stay under the 12.5% cap. And then it's saying in the sub two on page five, well, for that 1% credit facility that we're giving you authority for, we're limiting what you can use that money to only bulk purchasing of off-site construction houses.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. So this is silly at this point because we're not we're not giving them more credit facility just for this program. They could do that anyway in within the 12 and a half percent. But we they don't we don't have to say 1% has to go to full purchasing. So I'm still So unknown.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It's just I think the house feels very strongly about this. And, Peter, I've I'd love to have you weigh in as the treasurer representing the treasurer's office.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: But it's showing, of course, if I may.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Just

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: well, I understand it. It's not saying that 1% is gonna go to this. It's saying that up to and only up to. So it's capping a potential amount to possibly, but not definitely, go to this. So that there's a difference there. It's not hardening off a certain amount of money to only go to this thing and have to go to this thing. It's just saying that

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: you

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: can put some money to it,

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: but only that little 1% and that's it. Senator Chittenden, I 100% agree with you. I think senator Ram Hinsdale, to to her point is, let's say p and two don't exist, the language on that page, the sub b at the bottom and the sub two on the five, the treasurer's office can do this anyway. Correct. Under the their authority of the credit report.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And and I in the in the biggest picture possible, I don't want us to pat ourselves on the back while we create set asides or decide what the best use of money is, especially going into a recession. It's just I I know.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: But okay. But without this language, the treasurers over there might be like five or eight

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: They could not.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: It's like we gotta cap them. Like, one percent. We just don't trust them.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I trust the treasurer's office, and I want to give them ultimate flexibility. And I I think the rest is, like, I'm I'm just I don't like us starting to say, and then maybe up to 1% should go to this, not this. The economy is changing very rapidly. We're we're in an oil shock. I just think this is a a bad idea to start doing carve outs in the treasurer's housing fund.

[Peter Trondle (Office of the State Treasurer)]: Peter? Peter Trondle, the ops and state treasurer. So the existence of this language, this subsection, this new CREB facilitator b, I think it's really a holdover from a different time when we were looking at doing something fundamentally different with this off-site accelerator pilot. At this point, the language that we've worked on the house with in section four that would have us taking on the work of this off-site accelerator pilot, we would not be looking to do anything that it that wouldn't be structured on our end any differently than a traditional LIAG loan. At this point, what we're looking to do and what the language in section four of the house passed bill would allow us to do is start with an RFI, developers, potential intermediaries to figure out, is there a demand for this kind of bulk order that people can buy into? Who would do the organizational work of structuring that bulk order, quickly finance that bulk order the same way we would finance any traditional housing project with under the same risk parameters.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Can I ask a question there? You're saying that you can't do the RFI without this language?

[Peter Trondle (Office of the State Treasurer)]: We could do an RFI. This language has us checking back in with the legislature

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. To see how how this is working. Because that's the question. Is is there a demand for bulk purchasing of modular homes? I guess I'd like you

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: to check back in. We we should be looking at how we're where you're spending all of our Yeah. But housing investments.

[Peter Trondle (Office of the State Treasurer)]: Yes. And we have an annual

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So what so you could report back at me.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. This is a pilot that we're asking them to to work on and help develop.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But the question is, are we like, they can do it anyway if it's a good idea. This is still time, energy, resources, people's attention. Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And they've agreed to it. And I think there there's a huge interest in the house on this on this project. This is a very important It is not to me that we

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: act in language just because the house wants to say they did something because they don't need this language to do the RFI. They don't even need the language to check back in with us and tell us what they're spending our housing investment dollars on and how it's meeting the bond. I believe the treasurer is would prefer to have this language. Is that correct, Peter?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Yeah. If I may,

[Peter Trondle (Office of the State Treasurer)]: I think keeping the language that we worked on with the house of section four lets us go forward. We'll do this RFI. If based on the information we received, we think we can finance a deal like this, we will proceed. If we think that

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: we can't and there are

[Peter Trondle (Office of the State Treasurer)]: reasons that we can't, we'll come back to the legislature and talk about those reasons. That being said, the language that's in section B. Section two or section three, this kind of played under b, it's not at this point

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay.

[Peter Trondle (Office of the State Treasurer)]: Necessary.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So what I hear you saying is you're fine with us letting go b on line 18 of page four, but you would prefer to keep the language in section four, which we're about to come to.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Yes. So, Thomas To be clear, you're you're, like, here to drop b, but also on page five, that's number two there. You don't need that as well.

[Peter Trondle (Office of the State Treasurer)]: We would not need that Right. B and all of this subject.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: B and two. Right. Okay. Let us propose removing b and two. Let's keep going and look at section four. I think we're fine with section three with those two pieces struck. We're just raising our credit facility.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, it was in

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: your own. Yeah. That's 30,000,000. No.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But I mean, trust, meaning we're not telling them how to spend it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. Okay.

[Unidentified participant (likely staff/assistant)]: Yes, ma'am.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We're raising this without telling them how to spend it. So are we all still paying with section three? Right. Already done it in. So now we we move to section four. So I would this is where is where the section Section four

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: is the Off-site Construction Accelerator Pilot Program. And if you remember, as it initially existed, it was through the Department of Housing and Community Development. I'm going to now turn your attention to the document from Ways and Means Committee, draft 2.1. And again, my apologies. This is not consolidated in this exact moment. The Ways and Means Committee proposed to strike that off-site accelerator pilot program and replace it with this version of the off-site accelerator pilot program. The differences here are instead of it being done by DHCD, the pilot would be done as was just being mentioned by the state treasurer's office, would be done by the state treasurer, and it has language in here to allow the state treasurer to issue RFIs or RFPs, seek manufacturers or developers to come back. It has some language to exclude the treasurer's office from having to go through fly with certain contracting provisions that are built into statute through the administration. They don't need to get sign off from the administration before they move forward with a contract. And then the pilot is considering the following elements. The page two here, one, two, three, four, they've removed some of the elements that the pilot project was intended to examine. So for example, one of the things the pilot program was gonna look at was how to kind of streamline regulatory processes and how to potentially incorporate things like universal design, whether to enact, you know, building codes for off-site constructed housing. Those things have been removed because that's not really under the purview of the State Treasurer's Office. Right, agreed. That has been removed, and then lastly, you can see here on Sub D the report initially from DHC

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So sorry, what page are

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: on there, eight pages? Page two, Subsection D on line 16, the report as it was with DHCb wasn't coming back to you until I think 2029, this would have it moved up to 2027.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: You mean how the HSA Wait, who's the agency on page four?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The Sorry. Which Josh?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Is the VHFA rental housing revolving loan program. Okay. That's next.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That's not that's not part of the off-site accelerator. Oh, okay. Just a second. So if we're Peter, how are you with the new date on this?

[Peter Trondle (Office of the State Treasurer)]: We suggest that date. You know,

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: we'll know by that point whether

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We'll know whether there's demand for this. Right. Okay.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Madam Chair, would you like me to move to the next section?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I would support the off-site accelerator. It is something if we're really looking at rural housing development where if there are a number of towns that want to do bulk purchase together, I believe, Peter, this is what we're looking at. I think this should be supported. Treasure's willing to own it. One of our problems was there was no ownership of this program. And I would rule that we accept this and go forward. I think we made the change about 100

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: raised yesterday, Alex Sparrow had expressed concern on April 29 because his department phoned in for a, you know, for them and heard from him that he's very comfortable with the treasurer's gonna need its clearance.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. Why I I think this would be a good opportunity to mention CHIP and sort of other funding stats for municipalities if we're actually talking about helping municipalities, like when developers together bulk purchase.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: What are we talking about? All of the language in the pilot related to working with municipalities and having grants available for, you know, changing regulatory files, etcetera, all that was stripped

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: out It's gone. Okay. So I think that every municipality is looking at Chittenden, the better place.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: If you want the new pilot language, make sure you're on the ways and needs report.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I think I am.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You're at 2.1.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And so there on page one and two, it's just the state treasurer now. Initially, it was the agency of commerce, which most likely could be through DHCP, had to work with DGUS.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Right. But I guess, I'm looking at who's asked to be a partner or a consult on this, and I would think that's the would make a lot of sense.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The only consultation, this is through the Office of the State Treasurer, the only consultation is on page two the So CQ,

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I would add BEP C.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That would be fine by me. They are certainly operating one of the key municipal funding pieces in the stand, so that would be fine. Peter, the treasurer's office would be okay with that, I assume.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Happy to talk to you,

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'm sorry.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: C2? Okay. Okay. Under c two, the front of me?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Under c two. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. And is it and is it normal that it What's

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: that? Go to Ways and Means and Finance? Like, I

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: would think not initially, it would go there anyway as a result of any bill being passed. As

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: you all know, I mean, when you put that reports go to specific committees Nobody cares. Well, I gonna say, I mean, they go on your website so Right. Committee can find any report

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: that is

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: any other committee.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I just good. Mean, I feel like it's one of those things that people are like, where are we? So

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: given our time, I would say, are we okay with section four? After amended by ways and means, I think this is an opportunity for okay.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right. You're trying shed your order of check.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And adding thing. And and Cameron, we're adding Betsy.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes, ma'am. Okay. Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Great. So section four. Okay.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Section five, Vermont Economic Development Authority. This is amending the definition of eligible facility or eligible project to allow VITA to fund portions or phases of a multi unit housing development.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm sorry. I'm still stuck on page two. I'm the authority the authority on mobile home park development is still CBOEO's mobile home program?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: That's a good question. I mean,

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: would say it's DHCD. They have a mobile

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: home They have

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: a whole mobile home division

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: on one person. Okay, so they're covered

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: because DHCD is in here. Okay, so can we move to section five? We have done this language already.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: This is the language that was agreed to by VITA and DHFA together. In our bill. And this was the language that was in both the house and the absent versions after they completed the last two of them. Right.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But is this so I'm looking on pages four and five.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No. We're on I'm sorry. You got a bill. You got to switch back to graph 8.2 of Section five. Yeah.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Page six has a section five too of destiny.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I know.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Sorry. We're moving out of the Ways and Means Amendment. Yes.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We're coming back to the Ways and Means Amendment

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: or going

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: to come back. Does it sound like, yeah, been integrated? But I believe in our calendar it will be integrated, is that correct?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It may be. Okay. Who knows? As you know, this time of year, there are things that go back and forth between the house and the senate. In theory, our office is supposed to sign off on them, that they are accurate, and those things don't always get to happen in a timely manner.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But is it a is there a policy choice here about making it a strike all, or would that be worse?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It it it came over it is now one bill as it's in front of the senate.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: But you guys just haven't signed off on it yet?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I haven't signed off on the formal document to post it. Right. So you can't go online to get the one document yet. Oh, okay. That's why you have multiple documents.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: So we're voting on something that legislature counsel hasn't signed off on or something's in the calendar that has

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The clerk's office has signed off on it. Our editors have reviewed it. It just I mean, the attorney

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And then if we amend it, it is more helpful for people to see their amendments in total coming from the House, Ways and Means, etcetera, and then our amendment to that. It

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: is all at this point in one bill is in front of the Senate body. Okay. So if you're making amendments, you would agree their proposal, with further proposal. Okay. Or you would just refuse to concur and request a complaint.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But we wouldn't present a strike all.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: This point

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I don't think so. I think

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: at this point, we we concur with further proposal. Yes. Which I don't know if you would grab at this point. Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I don't think that's an opportunity.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, we could.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We could probably. Well, I'm not anyway, if the point is, I don't think we need to do that. I think we are are hopefully, we'll concur with further proposal amendment, which is what we already have two amendments so far. And we're then gonna discuss occasions. So let's look at section five on page So

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: five was this VITA language that I had over here that I mentioned.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. It's exactly as what we passed.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You already passed it, it does those two

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: agree And to VHIP on page nine, Exactly the same.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Before I go there, if you're wanting to take these in numerical order, I'm gonna switch back to the Ways and Means. And Right. A new section five a and five b.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Wait. Wait. Wait. Did we do five?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That was We passed five.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But but we're we're we're done. That we've said, okay. This is exactly our language. Yes. Yeah. Consultation is in reference to okay. I was

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yep. Now ways and means is weighed in. Mhmm.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: This is exactly our language. Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And then weighs in on five, and we now have five a and b.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So these are the two sections related to the rental housing revolving loan program. Mhmm. And this is as you passed it out of your community. So this is VHFA came in at the end. Remember, they wanted to remove the floor for the program. Which enabled to

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Lower income families to be able to rent at the new Hoover project.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Provide For them loans for development of housing that would be targeted for low income. Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And we all said yes.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Section 5A is just providing the intent behind what we're doing, and five b is taking the language that is currently in section law and putting it into entry. And

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I I hope we just start using moderate income as well, because, everyone is having a hard time working on everything. Okay.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So that's 5A and

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: 5B. 5A is intent. I'm gonna keep So Okay. You are we okay with ways and means and section five? We're all set with the entirety of because the new five is now five k and b.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Because that take us through page seven.

[Unidentified participant (likely staff/assistant)]: Okay. Ways

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: and means amendment, it's gonna get you all the way to page seven, and I'm gonna come back to that. We'll come back.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: There's no changes from the art?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: This is as it came out of the the proposal was the same when VHFA came to your committee and they came to the housing committee asking the same thing.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So it's five in the the three twenty eight bill and five a and b added? Yes. Right. Right. Just to clarify

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: this by the what bill did we did they take this round that we passed with? K.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Now we get to section six of the house general and housing document.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Back in the main document on Yes, page ma'am.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. So there is one difference here from what you all passed in July, and if you look on page 10.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: What do we Back on

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: the main bill, page nine, the VHIP program. So look on page 10. Okay. The House in July included that language on lines three, four, and five to allow the department to advance funding to begin a project. This committee was not comfortable with that, so you struck that. The change on page seven is just adding a date for their annual report, so nothing substantive there, so the real amendment here is that language on lines three, four, five, page 10, you all were not comfortable with that. So in July, as you passed it out of this committee, you removed that. Right. I don't remember why we weren't comfortable with it. It's about ensuring that the state has adequate security when you're money in the state. It's reimbursement This program right would allow them

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: to front the money. At the moment, it's a reimbursement program. This would allow them in certain cases with protection. I mean, as they have presented here with protections, they would like to be able to authorize this in certain circumstances. I don't, I'm not sure they've done that yet, but it, they have found that there are cases where this would really help enable, making certain VHIP projects happen. David? I'm okay with that. Do remember there was some We tests we had discussion about it.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: You know, would be infrequently used. Yeah. There is an element of risk,

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: but I'm not opposed to it.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Yeah. Remember having objections.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Also authorizing a partnership organization if they have funding in the event that there's a problem and something blows up, what does partnership organization do? What do we mean by partnership organizations?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: The five housing partnership, that we do all of our behavior.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: So in the event that they suffer loss as a result of a failure, what happens?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I think the Commissioner of Barrow testified that they would take out certain liens on the property, etcetera, order to have a security, but to your point, Vice Chair, if they advance the funding and then the developer skip town, they would have to then go through the execution then has to back up its promise

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: and deal with the loss.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Just one will do it very warily. So I'm okay with I'm sure it's something

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: that we'll check. The thing that I'm just concerned about in the back of my mind is the partnership organization did have the capability of responding in every case? It's just very unclear to me.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And I don't know the answer to that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, I'm comfortable with this, but because we have been, but I also completely understand why we had this drug hit.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Well, partnerships, have they

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: talked to partnership organizations at all? I don't recall, but We had

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: all the modern partnership organizations in, but we didn't talk about risk.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Since they're the ones that are essentially being put at risk, shouldn't we ask them at least before we get the legislatures? I realize we're in a hurry, but that's when we make a mistake when we're in a hurry. And we haven't

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: thoroughly done it. So at this point, I would then suggest we strike it and they work on this for next year and work on getting partnership buy in. We don't have time at the moment to I mean, we could call Elizabeth Bridgewater if we took a break and and and ask

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Might be that might be worthwhile. I mean, we but

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: we do wanna get this through on the market, but we don't wanna screw up big time in the process of doing it. Right.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And we took it out,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: not like financing? We took it out. Okay. We took it out for this very reason. I think we were concerned about the risk and state money being unprotected, but I think that Alex made us feel that they they would do this with in an only in extreme needy cases. So I don't need email. It's a brief order. I don't want to text her and see.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Madam Chair, would you like me to keep going for now? Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think that's a good idea, but let's put a question mark here. I think most everybody's comfortable with this, but let's get some confirmation. Are the partnership organizations to come to work. Okay. Let me Okay. Let me call. I'm just gonna

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: go Everything I look at now is we're in a recession, and we should

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We are not yet in a recession. Yes. Scary.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, the Fed isn't going

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: to help us much now with its current leadership, so I think we are

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: looking at our own I'm just step out,

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: sorry, what? Would you like me to keep going?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yes, because these are sections that we've all dealt with.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes, okay, so page 11, I'm gonna move you to section seven, which is Special Assessment Bonds. This is John So this

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: is still the same document.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Still 4.2 of the House General's document, yes ma'am. This is John Gray's area,

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: so I may not be

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: able to answer any detailed questions you have, but I will say, if you remember, this is about the municipalities that create the special assessments. They can then issue revenue bonds backed by that special assessment. Those revenue bonds would not be backed by the full faith and credit of the municipality. So this isn't, you know, requiring the municipality and the taxpayer be on the hook. This is exactly as the language came over from the House initially, and as you all passed it in July, it's creating additional tools to try to fund infrastructure investment. And then the key piece here, if you remember forgive me, but I'm going switch over to the Ways and Means amendment. On page seven, with the last instance of amendment from Ways and Means, when you look at the bottom of page seven and the top of page eight, adding in this new section seven a and new section seven b. If you remember, Michael Gaughan came in and talked to you all about making sure that for these new revenue bonds, if a municipality has a TIF or a CHIP districts, you want to allow them to utilize these revenue bonds as well. And this language on seven a and seven b is to make sure in statute that a municipality could abuse both of those mechanisms upon infrastructure investment. Current statute would kind of make it such that you wouldn't be able to do both at the same time. So that's what this technical So short answer, section seven, this section seven and seven from the Ways and Means Amendment, this is all in your Bill seven seventy five as it came out

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: of this committee for notation.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay, I'm gonna keep you moving and just assume silence is okay. Okay, so now I figured. Okay, section eight, municipal plans. Oh, we, okay, so we're back in? Going back to the House General Document Draft 4.2.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And did the Special Assessment Fund section here subsume this one?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The Special Assessment section in the House General is fine. The Ways and Means Committee added the seven A and seven that Michael Gaughan came in and raised the concern and needed that language to be had.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay, so it's complementary.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes, and it's all the same as you passed it. The study assessment section and the section that weighs and needs added in the 7A and 7B, it is all as you all passed it out of the committee already. So now we move to A, municipal planning. This is where, if you all recall, the discussion about within the housing element of the municipal plan, they have to include the analysis of regulatory fiscal strength preventing the development of housing to meet their housing targets. This section eight is the version that you all initially passed, so this is a section that was in the underlying bill S three twenty eight as it passed this committee, and the House made no changes to it. And in fact, this is the, they had a similar type of section with different wording, they preferred your version. So, thank you for your version. Okay, now we get into municipal zoning, and here is where this version, this section nine, is different from what you all passed in July. And Senator Ram Hinsdale, this is where you have a proposal to, if I may speak to it Sure. Add back in what you all passed in July. And this is where I asked Ellen to join, because this is her area of expertise. Ellen, do you want me to just comment at the highest level, or you wanna come take over? Sure.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'll introduce you the office. I'll to the. Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So we're okay with all the things we've already asked. And we are now understand that. That we Okay. I just to fill you in, I left a message with both Alex Farrell and Elizabeth Bridgewater. I don't have Andrew Winter's cell phone. But if any of you are listening, please call me ASAP. I, did text you also to ask you to please call ASAP. So in real time, we're trying to get an answer to this concern. Thank you. Okay.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Section nine in this version that's up on the screen, it's just making the change related to manufactured housing.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I'm sorry, is this your amendment, my dear? We're done to get there.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Well, read. If you would like to.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Did we do Section eight? I'm sorry.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Section eight was municipal plans.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. And

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: of the language that you all pass as a submissive.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Was gonna hear exactly. We have checked off, I hope, all the other sections before, because they're all as we passed. Okay, so we're now on section nine, that municipal zoning? Correct. Okay, great. Sorry, Stephanie.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes, so this is, you've talked about this language a few times, this version is just adding for mobile homes, modular homes, prefabricated housing, you're also adding manufactured housing, and they're required to The counter allowed are required to have them in any district

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: and allows your own residential development.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Sorry, can

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I go I was just reading through eight again, and I had we we had discussed a lot of the labor constraints that that we faced in housing development? Does regulatory and physical constraints include labor?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I would think that would

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: be a consequence. I assume that it could. I think it's going to be up to the municipality to interpret this section as they're developing their plan. I don't see it prohibiting them from discussing if there are, you know, we're in a very rural area of the state and there are no, you know, developers available in the area and listing that as a physical constraint prohibiting from meeting there.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I mean, actually, it can be a problem in our population centers Especially when it comes to the costs. We've heard that there are cost overruns when they have to bring in union labor at the end. I'd like to add the word

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: labor to the bottom of page 12. Is that a constraining thing, though, for our rural communities?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It's for everybody. Labor is our biggest constraint right now.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Showing also Showing somewhere

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: in that

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: section. Like Stylistically,

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: physical and labor. Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Or workforce, I mean

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Is this done by planning commissions? It's done by the municipality, and then it would be, I believe, reviewed by

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the planning commissioner. Sorry about municipal planning.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It would be some municipal planning commission. Whoever is in

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the development of the municipal planning. Okay.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I'm not necessarily against labor, but I just remember that the original language was so broad that CCRPCs and the Regional Planning Commission were concerned that we're going ask too much of those planning commissions. I'm not against adding labor, but I worry that these planning commissions are usually volunteer. We're asking them to scope out the macro labor market that I think CB and other municipalities that might be beyond the scope of what they can do their and time.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, I I mean, I think it's more specific because physical constraints

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: So those are confined physical and regulatory constraints are confined to the municipality of labor as a macro effect, then it's not gonna be in the they're gonna hire people in the municipality. That's that's looking at the whole state.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, let's look at the workforce constraint. So if I I think what I hear Kesha saying, I I think it's bigger. It's not labor like unions. It's like workforce. Is that a constraint that makes it impossible for you to call

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah. Yeah. Well, could I I mean, I just say labor because labor means labor. Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. Or you could say workforce doesn't matter. I think we mean the same thing. Yes. Cost obviously labor. So the the other piece, obviously, that isn't here is cost. So the cost constraints, there are there are four major constraints that I see them. It's cost, physical, regulatory, I and

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: think labor, regulatory, and physical add to cost. I think cost is a causal.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: So their regulatory, physical, and maybe financial constraints, I think that can be generally some too. I just worry of asking planning questions to speak to the macro labor market trends that might be affecting their growth.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I I don't think they're macro. I think they're micro market labor market trend. So I I think we're looking just

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: at workforce. I mean, if there are no if you can't find

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: If you don't have a factory program in your area, if UVM is enrolling in STEM 7%, you know, all of these things are very much, like, specific to our state. They're not

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: But but but belabor it.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. These are

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: planning committees looking at wood within the confines of their municipality. I I know planning commissions. So when asking, okay, regulatory constraints, they know clearly what regulations are affecting their growth at both at the local level and state into their community. Right. Same with the physical constraints.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Are you talking about regional planners or municipal planners?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: It's municipal planners. So when we ask them to scope out labor markets

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It says municipalities admit the regional plan.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Even then, the planning commission starts with the plan and then the RPC helps them guide it, but it's still focused on within their municipal boundaries. So I just worry that if we're broadening their scope to look at things outside of their control and outside of their impact, it's just gonna be more work for these people.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: They don't have control over how much land they have or our state regulations.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Their jurisdictional boundary and their municipality are the physical constraints. So they know

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: They also have people in those boundaries or they don't.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: But they don't only hire people in their boundaries. They only work Yeah. With They work with providing rules and planning for the land within their municipality. That's the scope of their focus. I just worry about broadening the scope beyond what these kind of commissions can hold. Again, I'm not against your language, but RPCs, they chimed up, and they were concerned about the scope we were asking these planning commissions to take on, That's where I think they might have similar concerns.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, mean, when you say a description of what actions the municipality may take to accommodate the projected housing needs, I still think you can't have that conversation without talking about how you attract I agree. And create a pipeline for a labor market.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I agree. This building, you can have that conversation, but at least planning commissions meeting once a month, sorry.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I'm okay including the word labor. Let them say this is out of our scope. Right. You know, we're different than, you know, other areas of the county or state. But it should give you a short answer.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Fair enough.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Right. But we're uniquely affected

[Unidentified participant (likely staff/assistant)]: by

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So Or we are uniquely We can affected

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: also given cost is a big piece of this, we can also ask to add financial as well. So if we're gonna make an amendment, let's exclude all the things that might be in strengths.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, I guess okay. The reason I didn't the reason I think Klotz and Financial are left out is because though these are the things that make it more expensive. If you don't have available land, if you don't have available land Sorry.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We are tight on time, so let's keep moving. The word labor. I think we're we're adding the word labor. Whoever infection this is.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: We're adding

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: labor. Oh, okay. Workhorse for adding labor.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We're adding the word labor. Just wherever you wanna So that was section eight. That is you? That's you?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: We will add

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: it in.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We'll add it. The team. The team will add it in. Okay. Great. Now okay. Section nine. So the challenge is with I believe the next two sections is that they went in our committee from s seven seven five. They went to SNRE. Yes. And so I

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Let me see.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So the who is speaking to sections nine in that municipal zoning?

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Nine, yes. The section nine in

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: 4.2,

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: municipal zoning, this is language you've reviewed multiple times. This is just in the zoning section about mobile homes, modular housing. You've added manufactured housing, you have prefabricated housing. Township must allow them in any district that allows your route residential development.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. We've added this. We've already passed this. SNRE did not take this out.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: They took this out.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: They took this out.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. There is nothing saying that when we look at this language, it automatically goes to SNRE. The chairs have to clear, correct the conversation, and it is I just think that

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the chair asked to have it, and we get gave it to her given we thought it would happen it would happen fast. I just want you to

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: know that the They still haven't passed out. They did. They did. When? They did yesterday? Yesterday.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. It went to Was that, like, two weeks? I don't know. But we all are very constrained on time. So remember, it's two weeks. We only have an hour and a half each morning. So they took this whole section. What else did they do? Just so as we go into these sections. They took out sections nine.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: On this one, would Allen would you be able to characterize what their concerns were and why they removed it?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm gonna say it because I was there for it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And Ellen probably can't, but a lot of it, said, we don't have time. And that was a week ago. And then they said without taking further testimony, then they didn't schedule further testimony to my knowledge. So if

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: they

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: are going to change jurisdiction and then say they don't have time, I would argue about the jurisdictional question. Because we are talking about housing, which is the name of our committee. So you can get the chair in. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Let's just get the chair just text her and have her come in because I believe she had so this is what the difference is is section 10 here in this bill is reports. Well, then you have my next different. But yeah. And then we have your mess. So I think this ah.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Well, I don't like just dropping the section that I support because

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. No. No. I agree. So let me let me I would not propose dropping this at the moment. I I would put I think

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: it would be helpful perhaps to hear from the chair because I also think Yes. I'm saying that Sorry. No. Okay. Finish because they know this language is in two other bills? Yes.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But they actually didn't know which bills. They thought I talked to the chair yesterday and she thought it was in the manufacturing processing bill that passed yesterday.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So this language or a version of this language was in

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yes.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: July as you passed it. It was in 03/28, this bill, and a version of it was in July

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Which if you all passed Yeah.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: For second reading on the floor With it. It. With it. The only difference in July versus this language that you see on the page right here is it doesn't seven five seven doesn't have the word manufactured housing. That is because in seven five seven, you give our office the statutory revision authority change the term mobile home So to it would encompass anything that is a manufactured polyp.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So was this also the sectional attack per mechanism?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Effectively, seven fifty seven does the same, so I guess dropping this would be fine because they're not effective.

[Peter Trondle (Office of the State Treasurer)]: Who else? Sorry for The

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: only but the thought there, I'm sorry, I'm interrupting. Is presuming that 757 Right. Makes it

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, it's on its way.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But so well, what we do here would conflict. It would not conflict if we add this, and I thought this was also the the overall section that had permitted.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It is

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: 7 seven five has additional language in this section. Does 757, god help me, have the permitted? So we do need

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Permitted. We could add

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: a different manufacturer.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Here. Could add that. We could put permitted for what? I thought

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: we said permitted for manufactured as well. No.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That language. I'm sorry. Yeah. Go ahead.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Is the language. Yeah. That has been in three at least three other bills. Mhmm. It does not say permitted in any of them.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, then I have

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: to find There's out when multiple other sections in 4412.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That do. 03/28 right now. Okay. One, your separate proposal amendment addresses other things that are not in 03/28. Right.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But to be okay. To make my case here, this is where we might wanna look at my language because it's the same instance of amendment has the manufactured housing language and then has permitted and has those other sections on owner occupation, which I would argue is pretty exclusively our jurisdiction. It's a landlord tenant and outside matter. And they basically said, I don't know what this means. So. And I told them I would bring that back to to our committee.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: This is the proposed amendment from Senator Ram Hinsdale. It would strike that section on it that we're just looking at. As you can see right here in the B, this is the language we were just looking at. That is in three twenty eight of the B. The proposed amendment for Senator Ram Hinsdale includes this subsection D. This subsection D was in July that this committee passed out. So this is not new to what you passed out in July, but it was removed in. Nope. This was not

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Now permitted subject d. The only thing left.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Was the only thing left.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: However, they only kept the change of allowed permitted. They didn't include the structure.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: They struck this on on lines 13.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And I'm I we had a specific conversation about this because because this is where a lot of projects get caught that are really valuable, maybe particularly in our area that gets stuck between people who want more housing and people who want less housing or no housing. And this is really important to our community. And I said to the chair of natural research that if you all don't understand what we're doing here, please don't just strike it because or unstrike it because this really matters to places like ours that are fighting over habitat for humanities or projects and other.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So we'll refine restoring this permanent language which they SNRE was fine with?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: That was line eight, and I am proposing in my amendment that we go back to striking 13 through 15, which they took out the strike.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: K. Sorry. Now I lost. Would you

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: be able to characterize why they struck that language out?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: David, we're sorry to lose you. And get lost. Oh, yes. You're both. If you're down if if you're done before ten, please come back. Anne Watson will be here at quarter of ten.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: And I'm here all day. Everybody.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Can I just before you both leave, the Chad and Chris Donnelly also agree with Randy? This is too risky at the moment until we get answers. They they're road. Okay. About the about the advancing, the vehicle money. So they would recommend Chris Donnelly and Chad Simmons would recommend that that that's the moment that we strike it. Alex Farrell is gonna call in, though. Okay. So let's wait. We'll make that decision once we hear from Alex. Right. There are. Thank you.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Did they line nineteen did they mess with line nineteen?

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. So No. Line nineteen is great. I must have not been to skeptical.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So I'm a little lost right now.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So so

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We were, I thought, in Yeah. Feel like you should in section nine before we got the reports. Okay. So That's weird. I've we were in section nine on page thirteen and fourteen. Are you back to the house proposals? Yeah. I'm on the s three twenty eight, which is what we're trying to decide what we're gonna add to with further proposal amendment. So we're trying to figure out what our further proposal amendment would be.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Try to be as as clear and direct as I can. Yeah. Section nine Yeah. In 03/28 only includes this change on page 14, which is adding manufactured housing any district that allows your own residential development. Okay? Senator Ram Hinsdale's amendment here, which we're looking at right here, which is now here on the screen. Draft 1.1. Does

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: everyone have a copy? Yes. I do have some Oh, okay. I'm with

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: you online. Okay.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So And I'm posting it right now. Sorry. Okay.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: On the bottom of page one has the exact same language. So it expands upon what's in 03/28 to add back in the things that you had in July under this section right here in sub d, and then also adds in this change in subsection e on line 19.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Sorry.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: On the first page or the second page?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The second page.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Do you want me to explain?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. I the first part is self explanatory, I believe, through page line 15. That is what we had in seven seven five. Correct? Yes. So that is explain explained. And they had no problem with that as far as I know. Correct. Took out they took out 13 That much. They took out 13 through 15.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I would love to hear your your intent. So what did you really I think I have it, but why do you see the importance of this language? What are your school problem are

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: we solving? Wait. Wait. Wait. It struck out in her amendment as well in 13 through 14.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: They took it out.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: They took out the strike. Why would they unstrike it? Oh, oh, they wanted it back. I'm sorry. Okay. Yes. Yes. Got it. And why do we wanna need to keep it strong? Okay. So

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: a lot of municipal plans and zoning get argued both ways. A former city councilor couldn't explain this more to you, but you It's to all can have neighbors try to use state law, municipal plans, anything, any tool they can throw to limit the amount of housing.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. I appreciate that.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: This would allow a municipality to say, no. No. We've actually determined this is an area we want more than four units to take up this valuable parcel. This exact money has happened in Chittenden County in places that it has made people insane. I mean, who have just ended their projects because they were caught between neighbors and the municipality trying to make both happy until they ran out of runway. And I tried to explain that in natural resources, and there was kind of just furrowed brows, and then they they said, no. Don't have time to go. Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So then a little puzzled Mhmm. Why it it's struck out in the system? We did this originally, and

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: this was Ellen pointing out to us, I think, back to you know? No. It was Ellen pointing out to us that we should give municipalities the continued control if our goal is to allow for more housing in general, that we don't want discrimination against quadplexes to inadvertently cause larger housing projects to become smaller. Right. Not as clear as I can make it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. So you're still striking these lines.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I hear your intent. I'm just not seeing us striking these lines.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. I guess that's

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: what Okay. Then not the lynch counter. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Because I thought you were wanting us to unstrike these lines. Yeah.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: We want to strike them. This is Chittenden.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: This is what she wants to strike them. Okay.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, right. The example is you are putting in statute the requirement that in these certain areas you're requiring that the town allow for multi units of up to four units. Right. Unless this language says we explicitly require more than that. And so, think there have been examples where the town has said, well, instead of allowing up to four units, we require at least 10 units per any building built in this area, which is not allowing for infill development so much as requiring larger multi unit structures, which the market may or may not have a developer for. But

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: that goes back to a broader conversation about policy.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: But it's it is a it is there

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: have been argument that both sides. You kinda have to in my mind, you have to read the full sentence. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Read it to us.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: In any district that is certified municipal water and sewer infrastructure that allows residential development, multi unit dwellings with four or fewer units shall be permitted shall be a permitted use on the same size as a single unit dwelling.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Full stop. Full stop. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Okay. Let's let's keep going with the rest of your amendment. I get that. Oh, you're And then you get you strike the owner occupied.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Why did you strike owner occupied?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So this is the this is the thing where I I I if

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Her accessory belt, I need

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: an accessory. Yes. It it was actually my original vision that I didn't articulate well to Ellen or anyone that this is exactly what is stopping development right now. Infill development, I would say, in places like Burlington and Brattleboro.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. I'm okay with this only. Yes. Only. As you know, I care a lot about Mhmm. Owner occupied because I think it does affect Right. All type of engagement with the property. It means you Right.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So in my Let me finish my slides.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I am okay with this because with ADUs that are financed under VHIP, have to be owner occupied if you're gonna use taxpayer money.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So I put this in as a potential area for compromise if I understand the vision that I had and how it relates to our original change that is back in here on page three, line six and seven, because my goal was always to start with saying, hey, if you're gonna build an ADU in your backyard, and at one you know, at the time you build it, potentially, you know, it's owner

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: occupied on one part

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: or the other, it's really hard to do that into perpetuity. So this is saying you for an ADU that you build, doesn't have to be with BHIP dollars because a lot of people wanna build an ADU anyway if they have a big yard. I know.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I just It have to

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: be owner occupied. This is for an ADU. I I I think

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I'm reluctant. I'm a reluctant

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But you're reluctant, yes, and I think that's a compromise vis a vis page three, line six and seven, that we're not saying so so we're also saying a duplex doesn't have to be owner occupied, and we're potentially saying a triplex doesn't have to

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: be owner occupied. I know. I know.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I haven't seen as much of the owner occupation restriction on duplexes and triplexes. I still think that would be, frankly, kind of

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: ridiculous to require owner occupation. You may, but it it actually, I think, speaks to an engagement in the quality of the way the property is maintained, the engagement with the community. I care a lot about neighborhoods. I live in a very tight neighborhood that has been devastated by being gutted by second homes now. Second homes is great. Let me just finish my frustration. Mhmm. Live in what everyone in

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: this building likes to call Disneyland. I have never heard a community call it. My point is

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Disneyland is being devastated by and becoming Disneyland by being bought by

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: second homeowners. They were they're being devastated.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And it's it's because there are not owners in those buildings. We're there full time.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Commercialization of residential areas is really Yes.

[Peter Trondle (Office of the State Treasurer)]: Thematic with their people.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And that is my concern with this section. Okay. That, quite honestly, I feel it because now 2,000 for me are now owned by second homeowners who's on a full time. Lose everywhere in our communities by having second homeowners not having kids in our schools, not participating in anything in our community except taxes and hiring help and stuff, but they are not part of our community in real substantial ways. I see our neighborhood's gutted by some of this. So I I'm reluctant on this. I understand the concern, but also feel for our communities.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. I mean, actually, that's that's not even a I'm I'm visualizing I a new don't know why that's just I'm I'm I had always thought we were disagreeing about long term renters affecting neighborhoods. No.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We want long term renters.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We do want long term renters.

[Unidentified participant (likely staff/assistant)]: But

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: ownership is piece of engaging in your community is all it is. Okay.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So we're we're arguing about two two different Sorry.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I told I don't know why that

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: happened all of sudden. No. No.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: That's I mean Sorry. I'm at you're doing tossing work, and we love what's up. We don't take them into the. It's a beautiful No.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But it's becoming it fast because they buy these second homes thinking they're buying into this cute community. And in fact, they're helping god the community.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. Sorry, but you are. So

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: And they're acting as hotels when they really aren't zoned for that. And so we want those

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: to be long term residences for actual people living in work. Right. Okay. So,

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I mean, that I will still say that the way generally to solve that problem, I'm

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: just saying if that was Alex,

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: would be, for example, to do what Burlington has done, is ban short term rentals.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Statewide, isn't it?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: No. I'm not saying statewide. I'm saying I have told the communities that are facing this gutting due to short term rental that their best option is to they they can effectively ban short term rentals municipality by municipality. And that's what Moore Collins came in to tell us is, is what the you're right that it's a Disneyland problem, not a rental unit problem.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, it's basically a combination.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Because short term rentals and long term rentals are different. Burlington, for example, I'm picturing a different problem, which is a person who lives in their house wants to build an ADU in their backyard and and rent it out. And in a place like Burlington, you might rent it for six months to a student and then two weeks to a visiting nurse and then six months to a student again. But you are not gonna make the investment in that ADU if when you go to sell the property, you have an owner occupation, a conference Right. On the property.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I got it. I think we have Alex Farrell on the line about about I and I hate to ask, but let's just interrupt my pathetic falling apart here. So You love Woodstock. I too

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: love Woodstock. And let everyone know it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I know. Alex Farrell. I love Woodstock. Alex Farrell, the commissioner of the department of housing and community development is on our phone to weigh in on this issue of your department being able through the community part housing partnership, advance money in certain extreme, you know, moments where it where it's needed to be HIP recipients. And I think there's a concern around the table that you heard before that it was a little risky. But would would you like to be way able to weigh in?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Dept. of Housing & Community Development)]: Sure. So, the reason for this thing is we believe we have authority to do this now, but we don't do it because it's it's really just not generally how we like to administer states. We like to see progress or see evidence of projects progress, will be advanced. So in an effort to sort of increase our comfort with extreme circumstances, the general committee included this provision to say that we do have a ability to do this now. I think we would exercise this very sparingly if we were past because as I say, we're still not entirely comfortable with the idea of the practice, but I could envision a scenario in which there is a known trusted partner and there is a cash advance would make sense. Obviously, we still maintain authority to to recall any values that the project has made the progress under the policy set out. So but, you know, there's less language when you no longer have the cash in hand. So, we we would use this very sparingly as as Edward.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Well, we we we appreciate that you would use it sparingly. I think the concern is you also use you may authorize partnership organizations. And so I also called Elizabeth Bridgewater, but I haven't been able to get her, and I can't get Andrew Winter. The the question is that Randy raises is does this put our housing partners at risk if they if somebody defaults on that extension of of of running?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Dept. of Housing & Community Development)]: You know, it's it's it's a really good question. And and housing partner, I mean, the way that it works right now is the the housing partner, so he's on the right side. And and something goes awry as it has has happened. The the homeowner center is violent before and it looks lost, and that has happened. It has been a big deal because it was getting it played substantial amount of money, but sort of enter into that region without something being explicitly stated where the liability lies. But oh, of it. Without something saying otherwise, yes, it would lie with the homeowners, you said, or to recapture funds.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. I think we have heard that. I think if if if there's I I I don't know. Thank you. That's helpful. And and we will discuss it further when Randy and David are back in the room. They're not in the room. And Randy's the one with that concern, but we will express that to Randy. We will we really appreciate you taking time to weigh in on this. Thank you, Alex.

[Peter Trondle (Office of the State Treasurer)]: Commissioner Commissioner Farrell, I encourage

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: you to reach out directly to senator Brock too to address his concerns so maybe we could resolve this on a faster timeline.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Great. Thank you very much, Alex. So appreciate.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Dept. of Housing & Community Development)]: Thank you all.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Bye bye. Okay.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: On the previous point, madam chair, I completely think we need to regulate short term rentals to the same way we regulate hotels. If they're not meeting ADA compliance, emergency codes, if they don't have the proper lid, exit or exit signs, as well as all the safeties that would that because the hotels and hotels have, we really need to look at what's happening, the gutting of our residential communities. So I know that's gonna anger the many that might not wanna hear that, but short term rentals don't belong in residential areas. In many cases, it's gonna take some tragic incident for, the whole the whole state to sort of wanna wake up to regulating these things severely.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We can always look at the victim next next Because

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: we're we're out of time, and Anne hasn't come. She should be coming. So let's finish on your

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: If there are three or more, short term units, then they are a lodging establishment. Okay. So they are I just wanna make clear to the universe. If that is a lodging establishment and they should be regulated. Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And they are increasingly being regulated. Just not Yes. Yep. So let's go back to your amendment because I would love to so does this not allow this, I think, does not allow local ordinances to say things need to be over 95. Is that right?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yes. And it and I was trying to find a compromise for both our sake and natural resources because it is this is an area where there is a Dual jurisdiction. Dual jurisdiction, maybe. I would still say this is about landlord tenant law and municipal zoning. And I would say that it's an area where policy is not settled, clearly. Don't have places that are using other tools in their toolbox around owner occupation. And we have some areas that are using, I think, too many tools in their toolbox for owner occupation. Where we I think we as a committee made a policy choice to wanna promote ADUs. That is our best for most people want four walls, and many people can do infill development, but they can't make the investment if when they go to sell, they're in a municipality that says someone always has to live here in the main dwelling or the appurtenant dwelling, it's very hard to make the investment with the expense of any of this. So I'm saying what I'm saying is strike

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: The s owner occupied lot on line 19. Thank god. No. No. What I'm saying

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: is ignore my second amendment to

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: potentially take out my second amendment. Out. That one? Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I would take 15 out keeping your change on line 19. Yes. And because I think in a town that like Ludlow, that is now 85% owned by second homeowners, I can see that they would want to be able to say, I'm sorry. You can build whatever you want, but there has to be somebody that actually lives at

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: the time. Right. And that's And they

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: could have 10 units, and just one unit would be okay.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So so that's why I'm saying there's two sides to this point. They're Right. The communities that you can name the communities you can name are the ones we've looked at in this committee. Right. That There should be single Probably. And for. But they also have hotels.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: They have They don't. Bridgewater does. Bridgewater. I mean, Little Bridgewater is now significantly high end. Okay. So, you

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: mean, this is this is why we're doing policy compromise based on

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So could we strike 15 line six and seven on page three? Line

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: six and seven. So let me just make sure I understand that, Ellen, they're now not conflicting because in one section, we're talking about ADUs. And that was my original vision is let people build ADUs in their backyards.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: As long as it's not used with public pet tax or dollars, have to

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: be over. Maybe step toward in the future looking at did the world fall apart? Right. And can we look at duplex and multiunit in the future?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. Thank you. But I appreciate not tying a community's hands Right. In case they

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: But I just I do want save themselves. Have Yes.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I wanna say again, their better approach to save themselves, which I think Stowe is Stowe is right there. Doing Yep. Is banning short term rentals, grandfathering existing ones. Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That may be one option.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And you can ban short term rentals by saying you have to put this out for rent for thirty days or more. Right. Which is very different than that owner occupation requirement, which still limits long term rental.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Great. We have Anne Watson here. We I would really if if it's possible to finish your

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: The last one is our thing. It was our thing about historic preservation. Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Great. So, Anne. Hi. Hi. Well so I am okay with this now with Kesha's amendment as long as we strike 15. I think we're fine with it. Other than that, it does go on a little bit on our dual. This is we're trying to concur with s three twenty eight, which came to us from the house. Where sorry. Where are we at in this?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: We've been discussing S 328, which came over from the house. S 328 is very nearly identical to h seven seven five at this point. Yes. And so s three twenty eight includes this language on the bottom of this first page.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Mhmm.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's it. And senator Ram Hinsdale is proposing to add back in these provisions that were in July that my understanding is your committee has made an amendment to. Dee, right, so seven seventy five. So, we had some I

[Sen. Anne Watson]: mean, I what would be useful to you right now? What I can tell you about why we Yeah. These decisions we've made.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. Or Because we're wanting to concur with further proposal amendment, which would be and we think this is an area that we both share jurisdiction on.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Mhmm.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And that we would really like this language except for the language with Subdivision 50. Except for 15.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: On page 50, we'd like to go and extract that language. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Oh, okay. So that would Unstruct. Unstruct. Yeah. Tell us about that because we actually would like to

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Of

[Sen. Anne Watson]: course, you could. Sure. So, thank you. So, I as we read this and, you know, open to being wrong, what we I'm sorry, myself here. In any district that served by

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: veterans, we

[Sen. Anne Watson]: were a few So our understanding was that unless that district specifically requires multi district to have more than four dwelling units, basically the question was like, would we rather The question was if you could get some development now that was less than 40 units, then, like, maybe that would happen if you strike this. However, if you keep this language and you have to wait for the right opportunity, maybe you could get more than four units of housing. And so which was the better choice? Was it better to wait and get more than four units of housing? Or was it better to be like, oh, there's an opportunity, get fewer than four, but now we have something. And so, I mean, our preference was,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Just Well unstrike it.

[Sen. Anne Watson]: Was to unstrike it with the hopes that we could get more housing. Though, also felt like this feels like a brushed decision between like which one is better. And so we were like, let's We would wanna hear more testimony about that and the municipalities that have such a provision. And like, is that working for them? Is it generating more housing? Because if there is demand for more housing in these areas, that's better. I would say that's

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: a better choice. And so I raised in in your committee Yep. You know, that that we've we took testimony on on all of these things. Yes. I think

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: there was a everybody particularly

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: There intrinsic was knowledge, I think, in in our communities that there are those who would use the argument, let's let's wait for better or more or let's force better or more when the neighbors want less or whatever that get people stuck. We have lost Habitat for Humanity projects. We have lost projects because the and it it I it almost exploded my head, like, that you can get pressure on both sides that that force a municipality's hand or force a developer's hand, and then you get nothing. And and so that is I mean, we've taken very seriously density and the number of units you can get. Mhmm. And frankly, have seen where forcing forcing the municipality to wait for what it desires has killed projects. Right. Well And they kind of know that too. So, if it's

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: a problem, can we readdress it next year? If we strike this, can we continue to monitor this and look at it next year if we keep it struck Well, for this I mean,

[Sen. Anne Watson]: if we strike it, it will evaporate, I think, from everybody's remembrance, because it's not. Well, mean, it's hard Yeah. So that's, I mean, the question is what do we want to do as default? I appreciate the sentiment of like, we should hear more, because this is also, especially with the second half of our thought around like, we would love to hear more, especially as this is what I would consider to be part of our shared jurisdiction, and so I think we would also want that testimony as well. And, you know, this could be like joint hearing stuff. So, the question is what we do as a default moving into further conversation for

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: next year? So, is your suggestion that that we consider just keeping the permitted part at the beginning of d Yep. And striking in any district that is certified water, municipal water, and sewer, and just striking that and leaving that whole discussion for next year?

[Sen. Anne Watson]: Wait. Now where is that municipal water Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: On Kesha's amendment, because we're being called to

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: the floor. Want to point

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: out that we are being called That beginning in the sentence on line 10, if any district that is served by municipal water and sewer, because that's the second thought Oh,

[Sen. Anne Watson]: I see. There. Oh, you're saying strike that entire sentence? Well,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: it it just it if you're gonna say I mean, otherwise, we're bad. No. Don't do it.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah. Nope. Okay. Okay. I don't think that's what you want. Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Don't do that. So can we live with our striking list for a year and then revisit this next year?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: So sunset type thing, strike it, and then maybe have it come back magically in a year.

[Sen. Anne Watson]: So we're gonna be having conversations.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I I actually really like that. I mean, life We're leaving permitted use. We're leaving permitted use. It has to go. Yeah. Yes. And what you're suggesting is un striking that language. Well, patient would like to strike that language and maybe review it next year.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I think the less harmful thing to do if we're saying things are permitted use like duplexes, right, flexes, is to strike the language. That is our Lynch Council opinion because it gives the municipality more control.

[Sen. Anne Watson]: I could support I'm sorry. Yeah. I could support that if it also included like a sunset so that we we we need to revisit it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. The sunset sunset when?

[Sen. Anne Watson]: Next after next session's fine.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That so what you

[Sen. Anne Watson]: said on December '20

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I don't think we should be in the middle of a biennium, so we don't often make laws soon enough.

[Sen. Anne Watson]: No. Like, July 28. That's up here.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But that's not very much

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: a A report sunset. I'm just saying, if

[Sen. Anne Watson]: you put in a sunset

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: How about a report back instead of a sunset? Because it'll take time to go do this, to do house and see what housing projects are coming.

[Sen. Anne Watson]: If you can build a report back, it feels like what is, who were we asking, what is bad.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: What do you recommend?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I

[Sen. Anne Watson]: think this bill's unnoticed, Shay. Yes, that's okay. We'll send

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: something over because we probably haven't come to this.

[Sen. Anne Watson]: Yes. With that in mind. But I'm gonna go ahead. Yeah. About that.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah. Like, let's Because they're four packs. Compromise today. That works. Packs. Sunset for two years.

[Unidentified participant (likely staff/assistant)]: Whatever.