Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: They're live.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you. Oh, okay. I always think that was live before we do any of this stuff. Okay. Good morning, everybody. Welcome back to Senate Economic Development and General Affairs. It is Tuesday, May 19. Okay. The we have a new draft of h seven seven two, our landlord tenant bill in front of us, and we have two things we need to land. I think we're in pretty good shape on everything except David Weeks is concerned about the Good Samaritan piece and the disability rights.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: I'm sorry to you that

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the governor out of Utah's Yeah. I know. Which is hard to live. Jay. Jay, I know. I've heard of that. So Jay they're taking it up. Okay. So an update on that. They're taking up in house commerce today, and they're hoping to fix the provision that Jay wanted to talk that Jay felt was unconstitutional. Oh, so they wanted us fixed. They wanted the governor to be able to to have it be advisory rather than that this committee would have the last say. So the governor be voted because Jay felt it was under the constitutional. That's my understanding. They're working on fixing that in commerce.

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: So

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Randy will be happy to hear that as well as Carter. So that bill hopefully will make it back for us in time or we can just concur with that. So Cameron, good morning. Good morning. My under I oh. So is there before we turn to Chris Donnelly, because I I think the disability piece is our biggest point we need to land. I think I'd love to is there something you'd like to say about this draft before we turn to Chris Donnelly?

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: Yep. We can walk through the changes. They're very Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Quick to point out. That's helpful. That would be great. And then I think we wanna move to the disability discussion. For the record, Cameron DeWittenden, Office of

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: the City Council, you have a draft 3.1 that should be posted. You have a physical copy. I've made the changes that you all discussed yesterday. Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: In particular, changing affidavit to written statement in the two instances where it occurs. So the termination of the rental agreement has to be accompanied by a written statement there.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Do you wanna do pre editing or no?

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Just because and should be

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: a Sure.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yes. Okay. Yes. I didn't know if you wanted to pick up on penguins or

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: at all. Perfectly fine. Perfectly So and then sanship here. Written statement, line 19, page four, where the written statement has to be included with the complaint at file. Thank you. Thank you. And then in section one a regarding the bifurcation, I deleted the subdivisions b one, two, and three. So by deleting those, I've renumbered the remaining a what was a one two three just be a means.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: You still have the

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: page three. Go on the bifurcation section. The landlord may bifurcate if it's submitted as a written request, shall bifurcate if it includes a copy of a court order requiring the individual to leave the property, and then nothing requiring that you didn't have to submit documentation and the other change is gonna take down here the deletions so you're not gonna see it but it would be on the bottom of page five. I removed the section related to the tenant's property that remains after a writ of possession that's been served or removed the changes there. So it would just, no changes to the current status. Those are the changes that I've made in this draft.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Good. And I my understanding is that we are fine with the exception of better understanding the disability piece. You and so for that, I'd like to turn to Chris Donnelly if we could. Yeah. Jeremy, do you mind moving back here and letting Chris test further?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Can we put the language up with Cameron and frame it up with Cameron as our attorney?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. But I think what we have to be clear I mean, my understanding is that actually the concern is landlord tenant education. And so I think we can address that with some language that Cameron's been working on. But first, I'd just like to hear from Chris about some of the challenges that

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: it's And everyone's got Big Hartmans?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I haven't seen Big's Thick. But I think there's a misunderstanding about how well

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: how well You didn't read big cartons.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I didn't have time. I spent all day on legislative stuff. And then in the evening, I didn't have I didn't have a chance to go back online. Sorry. There we are. I I you know, it this is very last minute, and I just am wanting to make sure that we can get this disability

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Madam chair, this is not last minute. It is last minute. This was the last piece of what we're gonna discuss today to vote. Write this out. Right. So I think we should seek to get big online or present for this conversation. I think we should have attorneys discussing this.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. The attorney Because this

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: isn't just an education.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think it is mostly an education because actually my understanding from our attorney is the disability community is well the rights that are embedded in statute for the disabled community in our landlord tenant law are substantial. The landlords may not

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Big said that it was in fair housing law, but not in landlord tenant law. And I believe Big is an attorney and does our fair housing enforcement. Right. So I think it would have been important to read that Cameron. This discussion today.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Cameron, can you I

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: have a big argument.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. I don't Did

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Lycum yesterday?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I thought they sent it to the whole committee.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: She may not. So, Cameron. Yes. How the interplay of fair housing. Can you do It

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: just got sent to me in the chair, so I'll forward

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: it to the rest of the committee.

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: Give me one second.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Do you want to let you know? And, Karen, could you be clear on that?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: 99%.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm just not gonna be rushed into consequential discussions about landlord tenant law if you're telling me you didn't have time to read what the information I said, you're correct.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: There we are. Camp Winner Room. And we also have lives that have to be led. And sorry. We all were doing other things last night. So did you send it to Kara? I could have I looked at it and printed out. Yeah. Don't.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: I'm a

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: former attorney. Right. Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So the interplay of fair housing and landlord tenant law, I assume is yeah. Can you speak to us about this? Sure.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Can speak to you a little bit

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: about it. So I was just gonna comment first. We're in title nine, and chapter one thirty seven is the chapter that governs residential rental agreements. That's the one that we've been discussing primarily. This is the chapter that, governs the relationship between landlord and tenant. And then under it is chapter one thirty nine, which is the chapter that governs prohibition on discrimination, public accommodation, and that includes discrimination in the rental and sale of real estate. So And so when you look at one thirty nine, here are the sections. So you have the protections in regards to public accommodations, and then you have certain protections for housing, so listed on fair housing practices. So this is going to apply to not only the sale of dwellings, but also rental dwellings as well, and it has a list of prohibitions in the unfair housing practices section. So this is where you have all of the language that makes it illegal to discriminate against individuals by refusing to negotiate or rent to them, by discriminating or harassing them in the terms, conditions, privileges, or protections. And in all of these instances, there are many of the there are twelve twelve listed prohibitions in this section. They all include protections for individuals who have a disability. I think relevant for your discussion here is it is unlawful for an individual to refuse to make a reasonable accommodation in rules, policies, practices, services when such accommodation may be necessary to afford a person with a disability equal opportunity to use and enjoy a dwelling unit. It is also unlawful to discriminate against an individual because the person relies on aids such as attendants, specially trained animals, wheelchairs, etcetera. Here is where

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: So it doesn't discriminate in

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: the sale or rent. We're talking about Initiation. Initiation. Right,

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: but this is the section that allows an owner shall permit at the expense of the individual reasonable modification. So this is what we talked about when we initially began this conversation, you know, a few sessions ago, is you are required to allow reasonable modification. It has to be, or it can be, at the expense of the person. It is unlawful to restrain reasonable modification. So

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: often when

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: also have to allow for a reasonable accommodation request to be submitted. If you terminate a rental agreement because someone is disabled or you terminate a rental agreement because someone has requested a reasonable accommodation, that is illegal. Right. It is illegal under the current law right here in the second

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Reducing an accommodation is different than evicting them.

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: So as I've as I've said a few times, right, if this is unlocked, to discriminate against someone, terminate because they are disabled, if what you're talking about is where someone is engaging in some sort of activity that is manifesting itself because of a disability, and that activity is breaching in terms of the rental agreement or is leading to the individual not complying with their obligations. So they damage the dwelling unit or they're disrupting other individuals' peaceful enjoyment of the property. I'm glad that those are probably due to the instances where something can manifest itself that could lead to a termination. It can terminate the rental agreement and evict or reject the person based on that activity.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So I think what commonly happens in these situations is that the reasonable accommodation, especially if we're talking about a larger housing provider, is to try and give them a dwelling unit where they're not disturbing the peace of others. So this is where fair housing law and landlord tenant law need to be complementary and need to fit together. And so I feel very strongly that to make fair housing law, which is often an after the fact complaint that you are trying to prove intentional discrimination around, you need to have complimentary provisions if we're make if we're speeding up the judgment. So it is a policy decision, I think, probably so your ultimate conclusion was. And I am saying that the policy decision to me is very important to make landlord tenant law and fair housing law complementary in the case of eject and and eviction proceeding.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So are we not able to refer the I think we're all agreed on that, but I think are we not able to refer in in our language to the fair housing laws, all of which are very supportive of of the disabled community and and support a lot of the concerns and and address a lot of the concerns we have. So for right now, that's

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: like saying have great civil rights laws. Like, we're in a very tenuous time for fair housing and civil rights and funding for making sure people are able to access their civil rights. So if you want to make the language that we're looking at in the landlord tenant piece reference fair housing, fine. We might we'd wanna do that in other areas then too because we should always be up to

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But we're dealing with this bill at the moment. So if we wanna make sure we without incorporating all of that language into us into this bill, we could certainly reference the the fair housing language, could we not? So

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: think it depends on what you're asking to do. Right. As I've mentioned now a few times, I I believe what senator Ram Hinsdale is adapting is to change the stat ute to expand on the protections for individuals with a disability. It would be different than what is currently protected under the chapter one thirty nine that you just walked through.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. But it is not different from what is included in fair housing. So why can't we reference all the fair housing law and use it in as we go as we work through this.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Because doesn't reference the change. So

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: what's being asked is to prohibit the landlord from being able to terminate a rental agreement because of things that the tenant is doing that give rise to being able to terminate their rental agreement.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. I think on that note, let's hear from Chris Dottenden, and then we can hear from Big. If we could tee up Big but, Chris, I'd like to invite you to the to the witness chair, And then we'll hear from Big.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And can I just add that he's is Champlain Housing Trust counsel present? Not to say, like

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think No. Okay. Chris is representing Champlain Housing Trust. Okay. And as.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I know. I just like it's a we're talking about legal questions. I'm not an attorney.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. I can't remember if you're an attorney.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. Did your counsel talk to you about

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: Chris Connelly at the Chittenden House of Chancellor.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Chris, the floor is yours.

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: Our council did not talk about this specific claim of said, I think there was some influence very similar to yours. Yeah. Okay. We house hundreds of people with disabilities, whether we know the disability or not. As counsel just said, people with disabilities are protected under the law. The language that I saw yesterday, and I guess in past harass, is it's problematic. And I'll explain why by using an example. We opened up a new development last summer. Tenet moved in. She has some type of anxiety, some other type of disability. Manifests by her long awaits. She blows the whistle a lot.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. Too specific of a story to tell on the record. You have a question? You know what?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It's a generalized story. Them tell If

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: you feel discomfort, I can stop.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: You mean, because I want to ask questions that are really specific, and I'm very worried about doing So

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: I will just explain it despite that. Yeah. There's a tenant that moved in whose behavior disrupted the peaceful enjoyment of other people around them nonstop. We worked with her to try to resolve the issue. It's been eight months. We have had four or five people move out of the building because of the disruption in their lives, because of the noise. Tenant is not responsive to offers of help. I got offered another one yesterday. I appreciate it. Like other units where the Any engagement. It's been service providers, our staff, local officials, elected officials, family have tried to engage with this person. It's been nonstop for eight months. And that, under this language here, we would not be able to move forward with the termination of her tenancy. Because this says the actions given reason for the termination are directly related to this failure. I'm just saying that this is an example, this is one example of many that we do, that we really work to support people, to keep people housed, and it is affecting the rest of the community. This language here would prevent us from taking any action. That's why

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It wouldn't prevent you from taking any energy.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Even Any with this line, which would not allow you to evict anybody.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, eviction is different than taking any action.

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: This would not allow us to terminate the candidacy. We have taken lots of action in this case Right. Over eight months, and we have

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Has the person refused Correct. Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: The refused

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: to be in a location where they're not disturbing people? And also, are they disturbing people in the middle of the night?

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: Because Yes. Yep. Night, day, up and down the street. It's it's a it's a sad case. It's a very sad case.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Right? I mean

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So but Randy raised this was when after you left the room the other day, this is what Randy raised this this kind of an issue of what happens when an unseen disability, particularly mental health one, is so disruptive that people can't that it's affecting many more you know, that's affecting all the things And around that is not fair either. So I think we have to figure out Whether what's

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: or not it's fair if someone has a disability, then clearly the interventions are not going to work, but that person is still a vermonter. Mhmm. And unless we have a continuum where they have another place to go

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But it doesn't sound like this person is even open to the notion

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We don't know that, and I don't want to stop talking about this person.

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: We continue to work on this. When I brought this situation up to advocates, the response I got back was, you guys do fine. You guys help people. You try. But smaller landlords don't. And they wanna really protect some of the smaller, and long lived landlords. And I don't think having a line statute is going to educate those tenants, those landlords. So what I would suggest is that we have a robust education program that has, there's really very little change in the rule of 10 of law in this benefit. There's very little change left in the bill. But as we move towards getting the court study back, we have a companion case that allows education

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: of Just one minute, we are talking about a process of terminating a rental agreement. I I need to clarify for myself, because that's a big deal. Right? There's a difference between eject, ejecting someone who isn't part of a lease agreement, who might have just shown up, and terminating a rental agreement.

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: There's a difference, yes. I believe what I heard yesterday from an advocate was that landlords need better education, especially if we're going to be contemplating We're going to choose that. Especially if we're going to be considering wholesale changes No, next in a fall conversation.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Oh, okay. Okay. Because we didn't talk about education yesterday. We talked about the per ten minute.

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: Correct. We actually talked about this for quite a bit. Anyway, keep sorry. That's my suggestion. The issue, really people are, as counsel says, people are protected under law, landlords don't know what the law is, and they are flaunting it, or not flaunting it. Or not not where. Right. Then let's address that. And if we're gonna be making wholesale changes to, or propose wholesale changes to the court process, and this is gonna be coming back next year with a study, why don't we also put hand to hand a companion education piece so that landlords know their responsibilities?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm sorry, but when we do landlord tenant law, we have to be extremely careful about effective dates and decisions that landlords might make in advance of effective dates because something is coming. So this is not the right time to say, let's just study it and see what happens Because when we've talked about just cause versus non renewal, what you have are people who get afraid of tenants who probably deserve a second chance or are not at the level of someone causing significant disturbance to the tenants around them who might be too risky. And and we pass a law that says you can evict somebody after this whole discussion. We don't put language in about protecting people with disabilities. You can affect can affect current landlord tenant agreements. So we can't we can't be flippant, I would say, about the consequences of discussing landlord tenant law in the public arena.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I don't think anyone's being bluffing in comments.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Thank you for the example, and

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: I guess that we should move away from it.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: My my question would be, Chris, do you see that the the ability currently that

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: you have to evict somebody has motivated changes in behaviors, and

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: that if we, not using this example, but other examples where there was disruptive behavior that could be associated with disability that the rent, the option that you might evict them has adjusted their behaviors to the point where taking this tool away might actually complicate or compound problems?

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: I'm not sure the threat of termination of other use or eviction really changes the nature of persons with disability. I can't say it. It's something that people live with and that's back just of my approach. What I'm suggesting is that if there's a path forward to actually educate landlords on their responsibilities under the car lot. Under the car lot, you cannot initiate a termination. Counsel said, you cannot initiate a termination based on someone's disability. Landlords don't know that, then we should be telling them to protect folks. And that's what I'm suggesting. I'm not suggesting a study. I'm suggesting that there's an existing program that just has not been funded. And it's not gonna be funded this year. We could come back and just say, this is what it's gonna cost us to do and this is the type of outreach that we could do. And it would go hand in glove with the sports standard. This is about senior Yeah, just brings us all a step forward as opposed to putting something like this in statute, which will cause my organization to have more turnover, continued turnover, and that's public dollars that's being wasted.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Because somebody's blowing the whistle.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, try that at 2AM. Okay.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: So I mean,

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm sorry. Yeah. I didn't I didn't I didn't wanna have to go here, but if we're talking about specific examples, I I will people often mistake why I'm so passionate about landlord tenant law for my pregnant situation. My father who has since passed away had generalized anxiety disorder and was a terrible hoarder, terrible hoarder. You know, it affected our lives. It affected his housing situation. It affected all of the people around him. The fire marshal would have to come and say, you are going to collapse the ceiling of the the people below you with all of the newspapers that you accumulate and books. And he was sometimes in subsidized housing, sometimes not in subsidized housing, but had landlords who either would work with him or would not work with him on that very difficult situation, would work with us as the family who had a difficult time, you know, making him get rid of things and throw things away and not be a disturbance to the people around him. So this is a very sensitive topic for me about what it means to accommodate somebody before they are homeless. My sister was homeless, and I don't like to have to go here, but I'm an absolute no on the bill if we say you can terminate someone's rental agreement without giving consideration for their rights and responsibilities to when they might disclose a disability and work with their landlord on what a reasonable accommodation it will take.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think we

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: can I'm just gonna be clear because we have twenty minutes to get through this, and I might just walk out of the room at That some

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: wouldn't help us. So that wouldn't help us come to resolution. So I think we have a whole body of fair housing law that somehow needs, without duplicating it in this statute, that we can reference in a constructive way and somehow address the disruptive behavior that affects

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I don't see language on the table in the next twenty minutes. So if it means the vote the bill dies, then I say we start with the language that we have and work

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: from there. We've just heard the language that we have. Well, which language that we have?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We heard it was problematic, and then we heard about someone blowing a whistle, which sounds really disruptive. F 30 fives are disruptive. Yes. A lot of things that our community members talk to us about in the middle of the night in Burlington are disruptive. Right. They might have moved, frankly, next to UVM. And they want, you know, everyone to to not disturb their peace, and we work through that in ways that don't have to do with addiction or fines. Right? I mean, you're just talking to the wrong person if you're gonna be talking about all taking actions about blowing a whistle when we live in an area where large housing providers have to deal with a lot of disruption that may be their fellow tenants or it may be other neighbors or it may be the police coming to their house. Right. But we have other ways that we deal with those, and people need to know their rights and responsibilities in that regard. And communities that are vulnerable, like young people and students, like people with disability, need extra protections anywhere they are afforded in the law.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And we have them in the law. And that is the question is, how can we bring all those protections that we currently have, fair housing law, into the landlord tenant law in a reference in this section and address having better education going forward?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Because Sounds like the Human Rights Commission and an attorney They'll

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: be in the talk in a sec,

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: How do, I don't know enough about that on the ground. How would it be qualified that the reason was related to a documented disability? Is there usually a clinician involved in these circumstances where they would establish clearly the behaviors that are associated to a disability? How is that adjudicated in practice?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right, and how is it confirmed in a way?

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: I don't think there's a change to it at all. People state that they have a disability. Then

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So all they have to do is state they have a disability and don't need a doctor to say they have one.

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: So we defer the human rights Okay.

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: Big. This is where we

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: make segue.

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: Thank you.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We're in bad waters. We're fine. I mean, we're just working through this. It's it's okay to work through these things. Yes. Big. Come join.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: And it's best to work through them when you're pressured for time, and it's they're now.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Machine. I know, Barbette.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Thank you for saying that. I'm, like, feeling some type of headache.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Alright. Well, record. My name is Big Hartman. I'm the executive director and general counsel at the state of Vermont Human Rights Commission. Thanks for thanks for letting me pop in here and weigh in. So I believe we're looking at this language right now. So what I wanted to make clear, first and foremost, is that this language does not represent any change to existing fair housing law. Landlord tenant law and fair housing law coexist already. I don't personally see why there would be a need to reference another section of title nine. But I wanted to clarify some testimony that the legislative council provided earlier, referring you to the reasonable accommodation section of our fair housing law. When we're talking about terminating a tenancy, that's actually gonna fall under section a one of forty five zero three, which is it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of various classes, including disability. And one of the terms in there is making housing unavailable. So that's how HUD and the Human Rights Commission would interpret any kind of notice of termination or an eviction of refusal to renew a lease. That all constitutes making housing unavailable. And if we're doing that because of a disability, even if that's only one of the reasons, that is going to violate Fair Housing Law. And then with regards to Section 5B in this language, we do feel that this adequately covers what is current law in terms of folks with disabilities who may, because of their disability, present what's called a direct threat to the health or safety of other people or themselves. And so I don't feel that this language should not change anyone's practices. This should not create some upheaval of staff to no longer deal with the situation. This is what current law is.

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: Good point, pass it. Why do we need it?

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: I think it can be helpful if you're if you have a section of landlord tenant law that landlords are looking at to make sure that they terminate a lease legally to spell out that this is what is the law, I think, helpful because it's a reality that landlords aren't always as familiar with fair housing law as they are with landlord tenant law. And I just wanna say we do our best, separate from CBOEO, we do our best to educate landlords every single day on this law. I offer a three hour fair housing training that's free and virtual.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Do do that in conjunction with Angela? I mean, the landlords. Are landlords educated at the same time? I mean, you doing that with Angela?

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: No. It's a human rights commission training. No. So so folks from the Landlord's Association can sign up and append anytime they want. And we also sometimes when we have complaints, we see we find landlords that have not been educated yet, and part of our settlements often includes that they promise that that they their their staff, if they have any, their property manager, will all attend our training as well. But often, it's my understanding that the oh, I

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: stole your piece of paper. Sorry.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: It's my understanding that Angela Zekowski is perfectly well versed on fair housing law and will advise folks as needed on the implications of those laws. We won't always see eye to eye on every situation of what would be the best advice to give somebody. But, you know, they also put out their own guide for landlords, and they often, I think, refer to the CDOEO guide. We have our own guide, and then we have a host of HUD resources

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: that spell out this exact requirement. So share with us. Thomas, do you

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: have a question?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: So just follow-up on that point. So if the current landlords aren't currently aware of current laws, why do you think they'd be more aware of this law, this repeated statement of current practice?

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: I don't know that they would. I think however, though, I think if you're enacting a a new bill that's changing some procedures for terminating or evicting, then it's likely to be read, and it's good for that to be a reminder there. But I again, I don't think that having this new language would change anything about current law as it stands under fair housing. If you're running

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: a business, it's a landlord. It's incumbent upon you to appreciate and understand the law. So I I I think all of us who are conducting any kind of business. You have to know what the law is.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We're changing the law. So if change the law, we should be crystal clear about what our intention Absolutely. And I'm

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: sure everyone will issue all sorts of briefs on this. Would you be kind enough to comment on this language? And my concern is big. How do we address the issue that Chris and Randy have raised in committee about disruptive behavior of a person with a disability and how that is about.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Yeah, so I think that's where we do need to see some reasonable accommodations being made for folks with disabilities, but it doesn't mean there's nothing you can do to address it. A reasonable accommodation process envisions an interactive process where you're gonna try to work with the person to see if there's a way that you can accommodate the disability while also allowing for, you know, you to do your standard property management that you need to do to make sure that everyone doesn't move out of your building or other folks' disabilities are impacted by the manifestation of yours.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. And we also heard that when we get court, there's a very clear understanding of what reasonable accommodation is. I guess I ask you to address reasonable accommodations trying to be made and worked on with Champlain Housing Trust and a tenant and not being able to get to resolution with that. So would this language enable them then to begin ejectment process?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Which is this language you're referring to? The language

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Big The language Big has has given

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: us. 5B that you're looking at? Yes. Think it could be What

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: is the language Big has given us?

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: I haven't given you language. I was just referring to language that was passed out to you.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Oh, okay. I so I just printed out the language that was on the email that you forwarded to me.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Which was the language you

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: were looking at that you forwarded to us. Yeah.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Which you were looking at on Friday.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But this wasn't I didn't draw a change. Right. Right. So how does this yeah.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: So this this accurately characterizes current fair housing law, how it would be applied in that type of situation. So you will need if you're a landlord and you want to evict somebody because of the manifestation of a disability, first, we wanna see that you're gonna go through some interactive process to see if there's a way to reasonably accommodate them. If there's absolutely nothing you can do, you need to still go through like you need probably need to give them a warning that you would give any other tenant. Right? Sometimes you can say, alright, so the whistleblowing isn't gonna work. Maybe there's another way that this disability related need could be met with a different activity that's less disruptive. And if that behavior becomes so disruptive that it actually threatens the health or safety of other folks, then you still have your rights, and you have your rights under fair housing law to deal with that how you need to. Dave?

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: That's up again. I don't want to dance around the issue. Really like to kind of tackle it head on. Is substance use disorder a disability? That's where we were last week. We didn't pick it up yesterday, but we talked around the edges of disability. Now we're back in disability. That's my question. That keeps me from really embracing the So

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: disability is defined under state law. It's the same definition we use in federal law and in the Americans with Disabilities Act. And if you have a substance abuse disorder, which substantially impairs your ability to perform major life activities, then it can qualify, but that doesn't excuse people for engaging in substance abuse because they have substance abuse disorder.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Can you define substance abuse disorder?

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: That is a diagnosis, a medical diagnosis. I'm an attorney if I'm not able to provide Well,

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: question I ask is because a person abuses drugs on one or more occasions, let's say on one occasion, does that mean that person has substance abuse disorder or just decided to use drugs that day? Is there a disorder that's associated with a specific level of use or amount of use, frequency of use?

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: That would be a great question for a medical provider, but often the folks that I'm aware of who have that diagnosis are in treatment with a doctor about that. If they are requesting a reasonable accommodation, the landlord is permitted to verify the existence of a disability and what the disability related accommodations that they may need are. And do an interactive process to see if they can There's a way

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: of meeting those needs. The ability to acknowledge has that been tested in courts in Vermont on any issue.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Fair housing law has generally not been tested in Vermont, but we have the same statute as the federal fair housing law, so we will draw from case law Whether

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: or not substance abuse disorder has been tested in courts in Vermont in any matter?

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: I can't recall that from the top of my head, but I know that our statute is meant to be interpreted consistent with the Americans with Disabilities Act, and I would absolutely predict that a court would interpret substance abuse disorder as a disability. But it's going to be case specific for that particular person, because it substantially impair their ability to perform major life activities. And then, you know, it's important to note that, like, someone's active use of substances is not all of a sudden okay because they have substance use disorder. And you can take reasonable action to, you know, prohibit crimes in your practice. Independent

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: of what is considered disability, think what we're looking at is all the tenants and and and what is what becomes fundamentally disruptive behavior and and disruptive to the lives, health, safety, and a good night's sleep. Health and safety of other tenants is important. And it is therefore, what we're looking at with this new language, if people are following along on page two, we are considering this would be a consideration of adding a six in a sixth in under determination of a breach of rental agreement. Pam, can you comment on this language and and what it would enable? And because I think I I just don't I'm not fully clear on its implication.

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: So for the record, Cameron put legislative council. So here's how I senate was drafted as a five, but you added in a new subdivision three in the draft yesterday. So Right. If this were to go into the current amendment that you have, it would probably be drafted as a a subdivision six. Few things. First, I will say, if you're going to in the a, the first piece of this, limit its application to subsection one, then as I mentioned yesterday, you don't need this subdivision b, and I think it could become problematic by keeping it. So I will the next, subcom is that I'm gonna make. The next comment I'm gonna make is this is also somewhat outside of my portfolio area, so I do give a lot of deference to the executive director with with the expertise. I will say, though, I do somewhat see this as being different than what is currently in statute. As you heard, if someone so correct me if I'm wrong, if if if you're a landlord and the tenant is engaging in some sort of activity that is associated with the individual's disability, you can't terminate the rental agreement because of that activity unless you're treating that individual in the same way that you would be treating other people. So if there are facts that are indicating that you give warnings to other people, but you're not giving warnings to this individual, or you've made reasonable accommodations for others not associated for the disability, and you're not willing to give a reasonable accommodation because this individual and the circumstances, I think that would be a violation of The current objective

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: is to have everybody treated fairly and equally.

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: What this is saying, it's new language that's going in the statute. So you're signaling to the courts that this is a new it has an intended purpose, and you're saying that a landlord shall not terminate the tenancy, period. And so in this situation, I would argue it's different than the current statute because current law is you can move forward with that termination. You can make the housing unlawful as long as you're not doing it, in a discriminatory way against this individual. What this language is saying is you can't terminate rental agreements, period.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And I

[Cameron (Legislative Counsel)]: think that that is different than what is in the current statute, and it would be new. One other quick comment that I will say to keep in mind, the protections that I I didn't mention this or I didn't get a chance to to bring it up. The protections in the chapter one thirty nine, there is an exception for smaller housing with owner occupation, and so pull it up and share it with you if you want. This would go into the landlord tenant chapter, so it would apply to all vendors. So there is a little bit of It would be. Little bit of expansive coverage there if you were to move forward.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Fiction. I I respectfully see it differently. I feel like we're doing a real porridge is too hot or just too cold kind of thing, and I like to move away from that for a moment. In the same vein, this could also be seen as clarifying language to say, in general, the ADA and Fair Housing and Disability Protections do override and a good landlord tenant or whomever should be able to take that into account. Otherwise, we're actually clarifying that if someone with a disability, if their behavior is so disruptive, so criminally- For not even criminally, mean, disruptive. I mean, and it's affecting

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the health and safety of other centers.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, we're, we are so, whereas we were all able to look at B one and B two and say, okay, pattern of disruptive behavior is B1. That is very broad if you're talking about people with disabilities. I know we wanna focus on substance use disorder without trying to separate that out. A lot of things that involve a protected disability can fall under patterns of disruption. What we are specifically saying is B2, that you don't have an excuse, even with a disability, if you engage in behavior that is criminal or violent. So to me, it's not saying period, You know, you you can't be evicted if you have a disability, period. It's saying the bay the behavior level has to meet a different standard of disruption. And and I you can go back to the whistle example or anything else. What we what we should not want as the housing committee are people on the street.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Obviously not. Obviously, that is beneficial.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So it is a policy choice that we're saying there is a higher bar for termination of a rental agreement if you are aware of the person's disability.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: If you're aware of it. We've had the back and forth about if people are

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: aware of whole whole new section to make sure that I that the tenant then knows their rights and responsibilities in making the landlord aware, that it is not incumbent upon the landlord to to guess at something like that. And so we are giving the court all of the tools they would need for everyone's rights and responsibilities to be met. But we are saying it is a higher bar if you if the landlord learns that you have a disability, that it is a higher bar that you work with them to figure out what reasonable accommodations look like, or you cannot terminate their rental agreement. It is a straight policy choice. It is not a too hot or too cold of the porridge. And I I am, like, sick of explaining this because I I I don't know how many lawyers can say this is the policy choice that we would be making.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. And some of us may or may not agree with the policy choice. That is what we're discussing.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But are you clear on the policy choice at this point?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think we're clear on the policy choice. I think my criminal activity and for me, health and safety of all tenants is critically important. And if there is one tenant, whether it's a mental health issue or a substance abuse issue, whatever the issue If

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: the issue is different than a disability.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Whatever the disability is, if it is affecting the health and safety of a large number of people, that is something that also should be included. And I believe that could be. But he had a response to what Kesha was saying. I'm different. Okay. So I would like to given our concerns and what you've heard from Kesha and from the rest of the committee in terms of I would appreciate the advocates coming back to us with language that we that that would help move us forward. You have

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: to make a policy decision about whether you want b one included or not. And I my argument is to say that it should be a higher bar than b one or b two together if you are terminating a rental agreement. Then it could adjust to a pattern of disruption like smoking. And I'm like, people deal with these things all the time. A pattern of behavior, two or more events like smoking or blowing a whistle would be put on the same level as criminal or violent activity, and that's a policy choice that cannot be made by the advocates. You can't just mush people together and ask them to make magic happen. It is a policy choice for the chair. I will It's not

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: from the chair. It's for the committee. Will Thank you.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: You've already heard that you've lost my vote if it's between b one or b two.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I am tired of your threatening all the time. I think that we can come to some

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Everyone has talked about where their vote is on this bill. That is not a threat. That's what the chair is supposed to do is count votes

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: on very much. I'm unclear on what the chair is supposed to do. Also would like to come into some reasonable agreement on how we move forward with with disabled tenants who may have a disability which is affecting a large number of other tenants and how we can move forward in a thoughtful way, being able to eject them when it's a provisional reasonable You're

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: talking about terminating a rental agreement, not ejecting. Correct.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. And so it is that language that I think we need for us all to be able think.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: It's our intent to pick

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: this back up tomorrow morning. I think we have to because we're thinking we're going to get that. Either that or whether

[Chris Donnelly (Champlain Housing Trust)]: it's not coming to agreement.