Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thomas, we are live. We are live. Welcome. Welcome, everyone, to the week of Cinco de Mayo, May 5 here at State House. It you're here in Southern Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs, and we have a long floor today. And up on the floor is our resale ticketing bill, h five twelve. And this is an amendment that's fairly important to be considered at second reading so that our venues don't aren't too shocked at because this is a fix that we that was identified. The minute we need voted the bill out, this fix with venues was identified. So to discuss the fix that we are reviewing and hopefully voting out, we have our own wonderful legislative council, Camp Wood. We have been working on this. We've worked on this most of the weekend. Yesterday, I thanked Thomas and Todd and Susan and Patty and Matt and Cameron for the extra work on trying to get this in shape. Well, you know It's a lot. It's lot of When we're all doing other things and trying to chuckle real lives with our work. So thank you, everybody, for trying to get us to get I would remind us as we go into looking at this amendment that I am really hopeful that we will look really at the things that address this bill, this bill about resale, and that we look at addressing some of the other issues that may come up in terms of primary ticket sales for that we look at that maybe for next year. So, Cameron, would you be kind enough to take us through the amendment? Yes, ma'am.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: For the record, Cameron Wood, office of legislative council. I apologize. I do not have my laptop with me. I'm dealing with technical issues this morning, so I cannot share my screen. That's why you all have

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: a paper copy in the spine line.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Scratch with two points. One of an amendment to five twelve as it was reported out of senate economic development. It's drafted as amendment from senators Clarkson's and Chittenden,

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: but we can change that if

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: the new council wants to sign on to it. There are two instances of amendment in this version, and they're both striking out a section or subdivision and inserting a new one, and the chain in the language is highlighted yellow. So first, we're replacing the definition of independent venue with what you have here or you would be replacing with what you have here on page one. So an independent venue means an event space that derives a majority of revenue excluding charitable donations from ticket events, and then the remainder of of that definition remains the same. I understand it's just addressing the scenario where you have such independent venues, maybe nonprofits, etcetera, where the majority of the revenue is is not coming from ticket. It's coming from, you know, something else, making charitable donations. So just wanting to make sure that you're including those entities. This adds a second sentence that says, an independent venue does not include an event space that is a party to an exclusive ticketing agreement for the sale of original tickets for the ticketing company that directly or through an affiliated entity owns, operates, or promotes live entertainment events at 20 or more venues within The United States.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: What is the purpose of that language? I'm

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: not the best person to confirm We

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: will. About if

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: you me what this would include or are there any venues, I can't answer that question for you either.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'm not aware of the independent venues that have exclusive ticketing agreements for the sale of their original tickets. Others should express to you the sorry. Trying to your words.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. And then if you just do the last, and then we'll

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: go to explaining this piece. The last piece is and the reason the definition of independent venue is relevant and important is because of the second amendment that you have at the bottom of the page. If you recall in the bill, as it came out of committee, you have the price cap of a 110% that only applies to a reseller, and it excludes individuals personal use under resellers. You also have the cap that the secondary ticket exchange cannot authorize for sale by ticket of greater than 110%. Then you added in a subdivision three. Here's where I I wish

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I had my computer, I could I can

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: show up, but it's it's what you have here at the bottom of two one in the top of two. The entire subsection, so those caps that you put in place, apply to the resale of tickets where the event is held at an independent venue, and where the seating capacity is 3,000 individuals or fewer, the event's held at a nonprofit venue that looks to agriculture fairs, this what you added in Phil. Right. So then

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: you're adding in Valley. Another

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And then you're adding in c to include the venue as primarily used for collegiate or amateur sports. Because what

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: we had inadvertently done was excluded, I believe, excluded our sports venues, our university venues. So we wanted to make sure they break.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So this piece is to ensure that you're including those venues that may just be sports. And then as I mentioned, the excluding charitable donations piece is straightforward as to what you're accomplishing there. The second sentence excluding for independent venue for these entities, I'm not aware

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: of what those entities are, which ones. And understanding the ramifications of this, would you like to start and then have others chime?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: That'd be great. So, yes, I see this language as something that's gone from advocates that understand this industry better than I do. And what the concerns that have been raised, there was a nice Vermont figure opinion piece. I don't know if you saw it. We're talking about this bill. But the concern is that the ticket cap, which I understand is blazing new trails to the country, could invite what I would argue as a novelistic practice citizen or invite Ticketmaster to come into the state where they could use their dynamic pricing in a variety of different ways. So I don't see this as actually affecting any change in Vermont. I see this as, if anything, just guarding against inviting all those practices that we've reading about in the news. But I don't necessarily think this language is necessary. I think it's something that I would love if one of the advocates that is bringing it forward could maybe make the case for it. I don't see it as problematic. I don't see it as doing anything other than just making clear that the Ticketmaster approach to event management has its own problems. We don't just wanna bring it into the state. Rita Daryl.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you. So this was what we're trying to balance because this is a new it's a new I new thought. We all Ticketmaster is not yet here in Vermont. Matt, would you like to speak? Because this is, believe, your language is not taught and should speak. Sure.

[Matt McMahon (MMR, representing secondary ticketing interests)]: Yeah. Thank you. Speak for Kansas. Yeah. Matt McMahon with MMR represents lot of experience, you know, with tikka mess or elsewhere, understanding how they play into this. So why as rich this would be an invitation for them to come in? So from the top line, they've been found to be an illegal monopoly in federal court law to dominate the ticketing market. Ticketing resale is the only market that they do not dominate, and there is competition for my client being one of them. The goal of their support of these bills, which is not exactly the same as the venues themselves, is to squeeze out competition in the resale market. And so this language closes a very it closes a loophole for a very narrow scenario, which is Ticketmaster approaches a venue to offer to handle bringing in the artists that Ticketmaster Live Nation controls, which is the artist management and event promotion piece of it, deciding when they perform, the primary ticketing, so when they sell at the box office, and then also saying, while we're at it, we'll also sign an exclusive contract for secondary ticket sales. So they cash, you know, they obviously get a fee on primary, get a fee on resale, but they're also not subject to the resale cap if they are an exclusive contractor or resale. And so this is a situation that we're trying to avoid inviting this specific type of company, monopoly, really a duopoly. They operate monopoly in one area of the creative industry. And so we understand that every venue nobody prints out tickets themselves anymore and cancel them.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It's a couple but not

[Matt McMahon (MMR, representing secondary ticketing interests)]: But primarily, they're done digitally now, and we acknowledge that. This language should not be catching any venue contracting somebody to sell tickets. This is if a monopoly like Ticketmaster comes in, and not only do they do ticketing, but they also own operate for both live entertainment events over 20 venues across The United States, which is a pretty high point. And so to me, it's a bit of an apples and oranges. And so that's this is a very narrow scenario we're trying to prevent against. And again, it's for the next two years. This will be revisited to care. If not next year, the year after, because there's a sunset in the film. So that's why we're offering this.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I appreciate your and I think all of us appreciate the effort with Ticketmaster, which has been a a goliath in this market and a real challenge and has just lost a huge knob like fight in the courts.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Did they both lose? It's the question I

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: have for you, and I think Susan and Todd have answered it, is the impact on this on other venues in the state, right, is unclear. I mean, for some of this in terms of, you know, some of our venues do have agreements with other with other entities. So I'm just would thank you for that. I appreciate that. That made TS up for for next year's work. I guess my concern is this is primarily about primary ticket selling. I appreciate this. I appreciate who would want her tax, but this bill is really about resale. So I I just I appreciate that argument, and I'd love to just hear from Todd and Susan, Susan first, about sort of unforeseen consequences maybe of this language that we haven't had time to vet. So I think that's one of the concerns

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: that have.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: A question about Yeah.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Sure. Which of the which of the entities in this space are publicly traded? So is Ticketmaster publicly traded? Yes. Mhmm. Speed, Geek?

[Matt McMahon (MMR, representing secondary ticketing interests)]: Yes. Stuff Pub is publicly traded.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Stuff Pub. So

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: okay. So understanding

[Matt McMahon (MMR, representing secondary ticketing interests)]: that Yeah. We we view this obviously, this is a a this would be a law that protects venues. We also view it as protection law. Mhmm. And it's in that spirit that we offer this language as well.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Protects you. I mean, protects stuff up and other consumers. Dave. By Canada. Just curious why the public Yeah. I was curious about that. Oh, well, first

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: definition negative. The first definition in the bill relies on publicly traded. So I was trying to figure out if we could create more congruency for what whatever we're after in the second definition because, I mean, I don't like when we start to say, in one section, we're talking about publicly traded companies and venues to more than 10 states, and another section we're talking about, you know, another bar, I think, plenty of more venues than The United States. It's like, like, I think this is getting incongruent, and I don't understand why or how. Right. And and and then that's

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: a piece of part of why I'd like to wait for next year and address primary ticket selling. But Susan and Todd. Susan, for sure.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Sure. Good morning, everyone. Susan Evans McClure. I'm the executive director of the Vermont Arts Council. I wanna start briefly by just saying that the Vermont Arts Council, we don't have members. No one is paying us. There are no corporations who are paying up to do this. We are strictly here as a state agency and a state advocacy group to represent what our sector, the creative sector, is telling us the best for Vermont's creative sector. So that's been our primary goal for all of this. The language that was added specifically in this area is not about ticket resale. It's about primary ticket sales. Sharing this with our venues, they all said and agreed with the fact that Ticketmaster is a huge problem nationally. There was just a federal lawsuit. There's been no there was a ruling on the lawsuit, but there hasn't been any Relief. Relief. Thank you. So no one knows what the, like, outcome of that is gonna be or how it's gonna change Ticketmaster's practices. We hope it will change it for the better, right, for all of the venues and the artists. Adding in new language like this about how Vermont businesses can make their make decisions about what they do and how they run their business without hearing from them directly, they have huge concerns about. And that's I'm here on behalf of the venues. The venues have said they do not want this language added because it takes this bill in a totally different direction. They are very willing to partner on additional legislation next year that will address Ticketmaster issues, primary ticketing issues. It is not an area where anyone feels good about how the how things are running. At the same time, adding in some sentences that could potentially complicate the and limit the way Vermont businesses make decisions, they don't want that to happen. So the arts sector is excited about this bill. They want it to apply to everyone. They are as you've heard from them repeatedly, this ticket resale is a huge challenge for them. They have really slim margins. They're trying to do the best for their communities. This is an area where we can fix a problem. You all have identified how to do that, but Bill is strong. Adding in this additional language that is not about resale, but it's about primary sale just opens up a whole new can of worms, and I would really like those venues to have the opportunity to weigh in on that with all of you, share their perspective, share where they're coming from, and adding it right now will not give them the opportunity to do that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: This is the challenge of our end of session change. Todd, anything else to add?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I I don't have a lot to add, chair. I think we I have sat in on all the discussions of the additions that you see now distilled into this amendment. Happy to continue to facilitate that conversation from our limited role in the bill as it actually would roll out into law on the enforcement side. You know, I think we will be looking it'll continue to be a complaint driven process for enforcement, and I think the simpler that that enforcement process is, the easier it will be for us to carry out and affect the purposes of it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Susan? One more thing about the Ticketmaster piece. I just wanna also make it really clear that, again, Ticketmaster does not operate operate here now. The bill has a two year set up, so there's some time to see what happens with larger venues here. Also, it was said that Ticketmaster is supporting this resale bill. I have never spoken to Ticketmaster. They have never supported this bill in Vermont. They have never reached out to me. They've never reached out to anyone that I know of. It's just not it's a when the resell corporations bring up Ticketmaster, what we've seen in many states, if that's a way to distract from the problem at hand. Problem at hand is the resell market is broken. This bill fixes that. That's what I really hope we stay focused on.

[Matt McMahon (MMR, representing secondary ticketing interests)]: If if I could just clarify what I said earlier, Ticketmaster supports this type

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: of law across the community.

[Matt McMahon (MMR, representing secondary ticketing interests)]: Although they not they have not they have not testified in Vermont.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Do you don't also represent Ticketmaster? No. No. Who represents Ticketmaster in the government? I know you don't.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: No one. As far as we know, no one. Kesha.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: So, I mean, speaking speaking of Ticketmaster,

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: I just wanna

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Did you just get a constituent message about Ticketmaster? No.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: No. I'm I mean, I'm trying to understand how this industry works so we truly don't hurt the customer who wants to have, like, all options available for an event. I'm trying to understand, in some distant scenario, if UVM has an incredible event space and, you know, we get some big name artists, are there big name artists that can only perform if Ticketmaster is involved? There are in other well, I think

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Noah Khan is a great example of this. Right? Yeah. He has played at Ticketmaster venues across the country. We don't have one here. Play at the Champlain Valley Fair.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: That was not a Ticketmaster event.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: So we're not, like, excluding people from seeing artists that they wanna see somehow.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Who's a nonprofit fundraiser? There might be exceptions if they do that.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Yeah. There might and, again, this this is why I'm really reluctant to Yeah. Yeah. Because it's such a complicated issue. And to be really clear, like, I don't run a ticketing platform, and I I would like to bring in the voice of the people who do. Mhmm. And in sharing this language with them, they do not support it.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Right. I mean, on like, eventually, I'd love for that venue to be managed by the flint, just like the waterfront. They have you know, Lynn does big concerts, Shelbourne Museum, whatever. We have big names. This I don't think this helps or hurts anybody in the room. I'm just trying to make sure we don't, like, make it enemy out of Ticketmaster before we know if that's what we can get artists here.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think that's exactly what I would suggest to the committee that we much as I appreciate the concern, and I appreciate it, I would pull this language at the moment. We have not had enough testimony on it. It's last it's relatively last minute. And I really would hope that maybe over the summer and fall, the Arts Council and Matt and the AG's office and StuffHub and whoever is interested could work begin work on teeing up a primary ticket sale review and see what we need to do to protect consumers in the primary ticket market. I think that's the next step. I think it's an appropriate follow-up to this bill, but I would encourage us to keep this narrow and just address the resale issue that we, I think, have addressed well in this. And so with that, I would propose that we adopt this amendment but without this sentence that begins with an independent venue and ends with states. Any is that okay with people?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Just wanna say, part of the reason why I just want to have this discussion is to hear other committee members, so I'd love to know what your thoughts are on this. All I'm trying to do is navigate with consumer protection at the heart between two commercial and stakeholders duking it out in this ticket arena that I'm

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: not quite familiar do. Last minute, we haven't had enough testimony on. In some cases, there's issues in areas we don't understand. We wind up adding Pete and Luke's. Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We might as well

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: write an amendment that as part of your exception just indicates the independent venue is not one that begins with the letter t. I mean, it's and and again, it's this is not well thought out or it's been thought out, but not with the right result. And I believe shares a motion of let's take it up next year when we have time to understand what we're doing. Sure.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I'm sure you are proposing to keep page two's line four. I'm proposing to keep the first yes. I'm proposing to keep everything else. The line eight on the first page, on the first instance of amendment, and in the second instance of amendment, line four on the second page. That that protects the venues that we thought we had included in the bill when we passed, which includes all our you know, most of our sports venues and the UVM venues, which we thought we included

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: in our 3,000. It's been

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: a week or week and a half or so. Why, such a focus on independent venues as opposed to any venue selling tickets? So you're adding this page eight or line eight, excluding charitable donations. We're kinda digging biggie biggie because great. Boundary around what an independent venue is. Why is

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: that germane at all? Be be you mean well, first, the we the the charitable donations is a critical piece to make sure that we weren't just driving a majority of its revenue from ticket sales, which is so that the nonprofit had not been included in that where ticket sales, in fact, are not the primary source of their revenue. So I hope that answers number one. And number two, the language Susan and Todd, do you wanna address why this is so I mean, this is important because the 3,000 seats, we Matt, I think, was the first one to identify it. It just excluded our sports and our our independent venues that were

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Yeah. The committee chose to add a 3,000 seat limit for space. That was part of our work We're kind of normalized. 3,000 seats leaves out Centennial Fields, 4,415 seats. Gotherson is 3,600 seats, something like that. So we heard from folks that they wanted to include sports venues and that the committee believed they were including sports venues. It just was a it was a small error that it turns out our sports vendors are bigger than we thought. Who knew? 4,415 people went to Yeah. Lake Monsters games. Go Monsters.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: So that's corrected on the back. So I think if I could answer center with the question where a lot of this is inspired from in the discussions is clarity as to applicability. So when this first came to us, it wasn't clear if this would apply any tickets bought or sold in Vermont, let alone just venue, let alone tickets to venues outside of the state. So this is just I you know, my belt suspenders, an approach to make clear what this ticket had and these rules apply to, which are venues in Vermont that are independent. Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And this was part of our compromise working with people who had concerns about the bill.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: So I just want consumers to know when this goes through, where this 10% cap is applicable and where it isn't. And so to me, it'll be clear if it's a venue in Vermont, whether or not you're buying or selling that ticket, reselling it anywhere. If it's a venue in Vermont, that one of caps gonna apply, but not outside of Vermont. It's like I get that. But, you know, the 3,000 boundary came in kinda late discussion. So this is the fix for that.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Thank you for having the discussion, ma'am, Jerick. So I was really ambivalent on this piece. So and I'm hoping that everybody wants to be on the event then because it's just Chittenden Clarkson right now. But if the committee is supportive of this, I'd certainly welcome all the body of us.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We'd love to have as many. Just moved it. I mean, it was identified.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: You got six minutes to commit it to getting it printed and ready for upstairs.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Cameron is on top of it, I hope.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: But we're you're you're you're gonna be able to get back to my office.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Will make it happen. Happily, we have many moments before this bill will be taken out. So I would somebody be kind enough to move the well, we don't need it's an amendment. So that is what I would move is that we accept the first instance of amendment excluding the second sentence or third sentence, whatever it is, that begins with and then you and that we take that up. And that way, I really would encourage you all next year. I won't be here, but I'll be cheerleading you from the side to take up primary ticket sales because I think there are as many concerns about that. And then in the second instance, the venue that clarifies what the venue is. It's draft 3.1. Right. And we will get it up to anyway, let's

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: As soon as I get a physical copy, I will take it to you on the

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. And to Bloomberg who

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: has a copy. Mister, let me just ask a question. Make sure I understand this bill.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Yes. All the time.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Keep an eye. The last sentence in the amendment, the venue primarily used in the region's center of sports. Do you have any venues in Vermont that are not that do not fall into that category that you would want to fall into this?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Is that a question for I think that's for all of us. I I think we covered all the venues that we think this bill applies to. So it ranges from the biggest area we have, which is the Lake Champlain Exhibition Space, which seats 10,000, down to our smallest venues, which are a 100 or less than a 100. So I I I think we and with this amendment, include the of a 3,000 or less, we include the venues that are slightly larger than that, which are mostly our sports arenas, I believe. And really any like, even if it was commentary, if it's charitable Yes. It could be as big as So when the VSO performs at Sheldon Museum, that that would be covered. I mean, it it we I think we've been thoughtful about who we rest of the gatherings that that we could this could be. So we are being called to the forum. Senator Clark, would you be kind of a call?

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yes. Senator Chittenden. Yep. Senator Rutland.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yes. So we've seen the senators. Yes.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I will make the change. Am I adding anyone else's name? Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Add it.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Are your names on again then as well? Is that

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Is it okay if we do the whole committee? Yep. Yes. Fine by me. Lord, the merrier. Okay. You. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, everybody, for your works, Matt.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Thank you for bringing this additional. Thank

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: you. I'm happy