Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So welcome back to Southern Economic Development. And we are now turning to our housing bill s three twenty eight, and we've had to make some hard choices to get this out in time for crossover. And I just would remind everybody that if you are missing something you care passionately about, you have many other opportunities to affect the conversation and in the house and in finance and in appropriations. So, with that disclaimer, I would love to welcome our legislative councilor Cameron Wood and ask that he review the current draft, which incorporates pretty much everything we've discussed with a major new suggestion. Okay.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: For the record, Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel. I share my screen, and we'll start walking through a new amendment to S-three 28. This will be draft 2.1, and I'll start off with the the caveat that I just finished this mere moments ago, and so it has not been edited. I have sent it to our editors for review, So you can vote on it, you know, with any further amendments that you all would like to make this morning. But just as a as an acknowledgement, I threw a watermark on it that it has been audited at this point. There are amendments kind of throughout, so we'll start with section one, and we'll start walking through, as another just quick caveat as we get started, there are sections towards the end of the bill that are not in my portfolio area, but are in Ellen's, and I believe that she's gonna join us. She's joining us

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: as soon as Chittenden. Chittenden. She's She's joining as soon as

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: For starters, on page one, we have section one related to municipal plans. And if you all recall, this started out with a lot more information about updating the housing element for a municipal plan, try to identify whether the housing or excuse me, whether the municipality is gonna be able to meet its housing targets, identify the statewide housing needs assessment, and if the municipality cannot meet its housing targets, providing a lot of information about what are the regulatory and fiscal constraints that are keeping the municipality from meeting those targets based on the recommendations that you all had from testimony. Is the section one has changed slightly, and it's changed in two ways. First off, it's not its own section anymore. What we're doing is we're amending the subdivision in the section related to municipal plans, so we're not creating a new section. So we're going directly to the municipal plan in section four three eight two, and then we're looking directly into Subdivision 10, which is the subdivision that requires the housing element. So it's directly amending where the housing element language currently is. And then it's just kind of more, I would say, honing in on what the intent is behind the previous language. So, it's a lot more narrow in the verbiage of what you're trying to accomplish. So, in the housing element.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But, I would just say overarchingly, we are trying the attempt in these sections is to incorporate the housing targets that our RPCs have worked on with our communities, with our towns, into going forward into their their plans, town plans, as they organically evolve. Yes, ma'am. Okay.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So say it. So this would change it to say that the housing element shall include So currently, it's recommended program for public and private actions to address housing needs and targets identified by Regional Planning Commission. We're adding the language here beginning on lines 18. Housing elements shall also include an analysis of any regulatory and physical constraints pertaining to development, redevelopment, or rehabilitation of sufficient housing to meet the housing needs and targets in a description so a little bit in a description of what actions the municipality may take to accommodate the projected housing needs. And then you've got some additional language at the end of the section stating that progress towards the construction of the housing units identified as needed to meet projected housing targets shall be documented within the housing element and updated as appropriate when the plan is amended or adopted according to sections four thousand three and eighty five or four thousand three and eighty seven of this title as the case may be. 04/4387 are the sections related to amending a municipal plan or readopting the municipal plan.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Great. Okay. Any thoughts?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: We're gonna keep moving on once people

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. I want us to sign off on this section. I just wanna remind us this is Catherine Demicks, Dmitryk, and and Sam Sheeks. Sheehan's. Yes. The LCT and our planners, this is the key input that they gave us that makes this workable for all town sizes. Okay? We all okay with this? Great. Thank you, Katherine and Sam.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Moving on to section two, this is tax credits. This is, if you all remember, the VHFA down payment assistance program. So when you look on page three, the bottom of page three, currently, the 250,003 year tax credits that BHFA has the statutory authority to issue it expires in 2026, and so when you move to the top of page four, what this would do is, and I've already noticed a typo, I apologize there on page four, that should be in fiscal year 2027 through 2031. So for the next five years, so it's extending the tax credit for five years, and then increasing it from 250,000 to 350,000. Right.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And I would thank Maura for sending us an a really strong email in the last couple days of supporting this work, and we've had much discussion of it. And let's keep this in our money discussion for the end, but this is here at a minimum of $2.50 and the request to bid $3.50, which which is why it's here as such. But this this is a decision point that we will make.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So the new language here, again, extending it for another five years, and then going up to three to

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Next section is section three. I've made a change in the reader assistance heading here, because this section has been pared down quite a bit. If you remember, this is where the treasurer currently has the ability to create a credit facility of up to 10% of the state's average cash on hand. The proposal is to increase that to 12.5%. There was, in the previous version, was a lot of language about creating a separate credit facility of up to 1% and allowing the use of that 1% money to purchase off-site constructed housing, and then there was language about the state treasurer keeping the interest on all the credit facilities that they currently operate, taking the interest and putting that into a Vermont Housing Special Fund, and the Vermont Housing Special Fund being used for additional investments in housing. All of the extra there, the 1%, the interest, the special fund, all of that has been removed, and the off-site constructor pilot program has been removed as well.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I would just remind us it's coming to us from the house. I put duplication in this. It it is active, and if it doesn't make it through the house, we can have further conversation about it. But I'm committed to hopefully getting that taken up in the path. I it's but it's duplicated in the house and and actively pieces of it will definitely be coming to us and we can build on them. But I think for the moment, we're getting this out today. This made the most sense to do this at this point.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So what this has is the the one piece of increasing the credit facility from 10 to 12 and a half. That is the one piece that remains here in

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: my Having more is just not that challenging. And and these are incredible investments that we are being able to make. Remember, these are loans that the local that the Local Investment Advisory Council makes at the discretion of, with the support of the treasurer. Yep.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. So that's the primary change in a. The remainder pieces in this section are are minor technical amendments. I will highlight, I did add, and I assumed that you would want it in page five, so there's this annual report that's required under D, and I added in the d two that the expiration of required reports will not apply to that because I assume that you're going to want to continue to receive this information on an annual basis as long as they're issuing this credit as long they're issuing loans.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: They're incredibly important to housing. We have a a representative from the treasurer's office here. David, would you kind of just introduce yourself and tell us, if you would, what percent of the lag loans are going to housing? Because it's a significant percent, isn't it?

[David (Representative, Vermont State Treasurer’s Office)]: Yes. David shared that if you could, Gerard. While we do have some legacy loans from a few years back that are not housing related, all of the loans that have gone out in the last, I'd say, two and a half to three years have been housing related. They support about 1,700 units of new or preserved housing in the state. And so across the whole portfolio, I think it's something on the order of that 80% or probably 12 times now of the plan funding is supporting. Right.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And I I just think this is I know we have BHCB has my back here, and I know how important some of these loans have been putting together these complicated affordable projects. So we're and you've been able to do some things that weren't sort of traditionally affordable housing. You've been able to do more mixed use and market rate housing, which is also so needed in our community. So this has been a great and more flexible housing financing instrument, believe.

[David (Representative, Vermont State Treasurer’s Office)]: Yes.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Okay. Great. Yeah. Than what we have otherwise. So thank you. And thank you, dear.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So next section is gonna be section

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So are we all okay with this section?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Big? You're mixing. Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: If you have a question, this is a good time to ask him. Okay. Okay. Okay. The

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: next section, section four, is gonna be related to common interest communities. If you'll recall, bill, as it was up to this point, requiring common interest communities to accept leasing within units, accept family childcare home within units, accept accessory dwelling units, and accepts the installation of electric vehicle supply equipment. There's a lot of discussion and concern from witnesses external about the language that was there, how expansive it would be, what common communities are you applying the provisions to, is it going be retroactive, common communities kind of run the gamut of how they're set up, what they look like, how expansive they are, how old they are, which law applies, etcetera. And there was concern in certain sections about taking common elements, land that's owned in common, and using it for exclusive use, and wanting to make sure the language was exactly how it needed to be, to not raise any potential legal concerns. And so what all of those sections have been removed, and it has been condensed into just requirement for our office to issue you all a report by November identifying legal issues associated with the provisions that were in the bill, and be happy to expand upon that if you all would like additional information. I know there was a discussion about giving certain incentives for density, for example. I didn't include that at this point, but I'd be happy to add. Just the point being, it's kind of a legal and practical landmine to walk through the common just community's title, and so this is asking our office to come back to you all with information on each of the provisions that were in the bill and giving you some written guidance about what those legal issues would be. So you can then make some informed decision like And

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I appreciate this because of the what's been interesting is to as we have taken up this issue, we do not have a lot of experience working with home ownership aid, associations, condominium associations, communities of common interest, and both the complex interaction of covenants and and deeds and affordable housing. It's it's a a mix of of of of law and challenges that we I don't think we really had the as we were looking at some of the issues that were raised by the lawyer in particular, I'm just totally unsafe. Her name is wrong. Christian. Christian. Right. It became clear we we needed to do some more work on this before we could go forward. So with this was a solution that Thomas, in large measure, proposed, and well, we did. And wanted those are people who suggested I moving towards some of this, but I'm I am grateful to our legislative council that his interest given that he has the housing portfolio, that his interest has been peaked enough by these challenges that he is willing to take on exploring them further, and and some of us are happy to continue working on that this summer with you. It's our fault. Any thoughts? I know it's disappointing. But it's like

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: The I just wonder about the

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: What page are you on?

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Let's see. Page six. Line two. Authorize commercial purposes within a dwelling unit. This may have been thought through, I know you know what that, you know that we were talking about in home childcare. I thought the more elegant solution that we'd heard about actually from that attorney was treating in home childcare like a residential use. So I just don't wanna lose I just don't wanna scare people that were saying you could, like, have all kinds of businesses out of your home in a common interest community and focus more on what types of uses should be considered

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: current homes. Yeah, understood, and my thought of drafting it this way was, you know, I could have originally articulated it directly as the bill mentioned, of authorizing a family childcare home within a dwelling unit, but my thought was, if I'm doing the research on it, I would look at that a little more globally and saying, you know, what types of uses, you know, are there legal issues of allowance? So that's why I've raised it this way.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But And, actually, it got me thinking that with them, with the rising percent of our elder with our demographics, there may be more people actually who are also doing elder care In home. In home. Yeah. So that concerned me. And I thought that's why I like this broader use. Also, don't have. I mean, are some other things that people do out of their home that are commercial, like Mary Kay cosmetics or Tupperware. You know?

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: What if

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: that where people are, it is commercial. Yeah. And it's in their home.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: My mother did Mary Kay and Tupperware. Definitely. You know? So So

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I could leave this this way? I could draft it to be a little more narrow?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I I would actually keep it this way and explore explore it broadly, but we could also, you know, as we go forward, illustrate it. But I think at the moment, it's

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And I know those are obviously the the family child care home that's in the bill at one point in particular. So I would make sure to to hone in on that specifically as part of the

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Well, I've had proponent on all those things. You know, care of other human beings, whether they're old or young. Right. And but also things that don't have ongoing impact three hundred sixty five days a year, like a Mary Kay or a Tupperware or a Doncaster or a Carlisle. Yeah. Greg. Okay. Are you all okay with this? Randy. Yep.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Thomas. Greg. Okay. Page six. We're moving on to section five, which is the Vermont Economic Development Authority. There's no change to

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the section. And we'd okay this already. If you

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: all recall, this is just about giving the each of the ability to finance multi unit housing with the discretion of the HFA on this project. Next section is section six, service supported housing, and the only changes in this were recommended by your external stakeholders to highlight the reference to developmental disability services, as those are specific services and wanting to make sure it's identifying exactly what they're referring to. So you see that change on line 19, page seven, and then there's another change at the end in page nine, same change, just identifying that the advisory council will report annually on the housing assessment for individuals served by Developmental Disability Services. So if you all recall, this was a continuation of the work that happened over this past summer with the report that you all had coming back primarily to work on developing state plans for housing for individuals with development disabilities. This is terrific.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: This is terrific. I will note that we are in again, something many of us care deeply about is moving this conversation forward. So this council is gonna be critically important. And with VHCb on it, I would note that because we're pulling the $3,000,000 from the bill at which you'll notice later when we get to that, I am gonna count on the voice of VHCb, which hosted that pilot in trying to find one kind of money and being creative about how we figure out the money going forward because we have to figure out the money for all this housing. I mean, we can't we can get address all the low hanging fruit and the barriers zoning wise and regulatory wise, but we are still gonna need funding to build houses. So if we're really serious about housing crisis, we gotta find money for it. So I'm very glad VHC is on this council, and I just wanna say that's where we're gonna leave the money piece at the moment. I we're very sorry, but we we hoped that we would find it from unknown properties in the treasurer's office, but that evaporated as a possibility. And so we're gonna have to advocate for some more one time money to keep that pilot going and or be creative about finding it elsewhere. And we're we're all gonna have to go to Whitehall and start buying Powerball tickets or whatever we can get at Whitehall dedicated to house. Anyway, thank you.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That, I will pause there. I guess I'll, I'll move down because we're, we're starting to transition over into the municipal zoning, the areas that are really more in, in Ellen's portfolio where she has made some amendments, but before we get there, I'll scroll down and bring you to the

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: we'll take out two appropriations,

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I think. Positions and appropriations, yes ma'am, the bottom of page 15. So you have the following positions being created in DHCV. Two full time classified grants management specialists. One full time exempt position to increase the capacity to administer their programs, and then there's just one position being created within the Department of Disabilities, Aging, and Independent Living for expanding housing and residential service options. I believe that's kind of to coincide with the work that's up above with the creation of that council. Right. And then you have two appropriations in the bill, 250,000 to municipal

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, or $3.50 is the conversation starter there. And then $2.50 is what?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You have $3.50 for the tax credit above. Right. Yes, ma'am. And then you have here 250,000.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Oh, right. I I apologize. Yeah. Right.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And then you have $2.50 for the municipal and regional planning and resilience funds for municipal planning grants, and then you have $5,000,000 base budget for. And you have an effective date of July '6.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Great. Okay. So we have a bunch of decision points here. Ellen sadly is not able to be with us until eleven. Is that correct? Yep.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I can

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Which is pushing things out a bit, but we are just would you like to go through?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: They're highlighted, so I can mention to you what's at least what's changed, and

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: then Okay. And then we can go to some of our decision Yeah.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It may rely on you for recollection as to to why you were doing the change. But Yeah. Here in the municipal zoning, so section seven, this is about, you know, municipal bylaws cannot have the effect of excluding mobile homes, modular homes. You're adding manufacturing housing. Yeah. For many districts, it allows year round residential development. So kind of clarification there that the bylaws can't prohibit these types of housing in these areas.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: This is remember what we heard from Rachel Siegel from Pugh. She was on this morning on Vermont Publication. Rachel Siegel was called out and spoke. Yay. And there's a nice big piece on Vermont on the national public radio. Oh, national. Yeah.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: That was carried off from public.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Exactly. I think my memory was we were okay on this given the addition of manufactured housing. Is that is that everybody's recollection? I think that we were fine with this. And we'll have Ellen to come in

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: further clarify that. Yeah. Just for clarity. The local

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: zoning ordinance prompts it. Does it? I believe it does, and we'll have Ellen come in and clip. So but just note that as your question. Local ordinances and

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: That's just the city council that worked with the RV stuff. My opinion is it does. Trump being its point in early six. Stay on.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That they're still they still over supersede? Is that a better word? The Trump

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I think they overlay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Over what I would say.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Because it's saying you can't exclude this type. Yeah. You can't set conditions Yes. Of what it looks like and what environmental regulations it has to follow. Right. Yeah.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: And this type of construction meets their aesthetic and design street design standards that it permitted. That's my understanding.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right. Not an obturvy.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. But that was my understanding Mhmm. Too, and that with this edition, people were okay with it. But we'll confirm that. Confirmation. Right.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: It does not read with clarity.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Oh,

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Oh, it doesn't read with clarity in terms of the decision of superseding.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And I think Things

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: are already in law, I think. What she will tell us is that it's in the underlying law, but we will have Ellen confirm that.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And the challenge we tried to articulate is that if you don't have zoning or bylaws at all, you don't have anything to overlay with. So that's a different problem.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: And that exists three years, you know,

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: '42 forty four twelve b, Sept is provided, subdivisions, whatever those are.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So they're important. So that's she'll tell us.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: No. Biological, effect of excluding mobile homes, etcetera, etcetera, including. Right. Just trying to understand how that would come.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So we will get her to clarify that and and confirm that this is an overlay and not anything else. Okay. And then the next section is, I believe, what I refer to as are

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: To section eight on the bottom, page 11. Yeah.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: This is the option three to be discussed with the planners, and this is what we adopted. This is what choice we made, I believe, to this is paralleling the length with the road rule, and this is enabling if people wanna request to hook up to water and sewer that's available in that transit corridor, they will be able to do so up to 2,000 feet. Right? Is that where we that's where we land? Are we okay with this? At least that was my understanding what this section was.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I believe so. Right.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Is this and then the union labor rehab, that is a full discussion. I think we still have data.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yep. So that's the only change there on section eight. You get to page 13. Section nine, you've made some changes to this new section. Just the plan. Union labor, a multiunit residential housing construction project with more than 45 units that has a project labor agreement for construction shall receive a density bonus under zoning by law for an additional 20% off.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And that is I believe we have that's a position point too, obviously. And the if you would you added the down designation. This Alex has asked us to add this piece in the state community investment program. And,

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Cam, can you speak to this? I can walk you through the language. It came to me, as you mentioned, madam chair, it came from the commissioner, and this is under the State Community Investment Program entitled 24. I'm not familiar with the program, so I can't answer any specific questions you may have about the program, but the changes begin on page 14.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Excuse me. Page 15.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And it's really the only new language. It's all current law, I believe. Yes. Correct. The downtown designation part of me. The only thing it's adding is on page 15, and it's up. This is a change they are asking for. Can you just read that? And I'm just I'm just Yeah. Asking Alex.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. As you were mentioning, it's it's in both instances, it's really just adding this language here on lines five, six, fifteen, and sixteen, then some language on line 14 there. So under this step two and step three, it's kind of, I guess, identifying what the center is in each of these steps. But again, I'm not familiar with this program, so I don't know what the steps are in relation to. I don't know what the section, and we can walk through it together. That would be

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: okay. Right.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Otherwise, I would have to defer to Ellen. This is her area, and she she grabbed it this afternoon.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. I'm just asking Alex, I believe he's in the building, to come and step in and chat with us about this because we've he'd asked to have this included, and we haven't actually had a chat about it, but it's a so we can I've just texted and see if he's forward to S and R. Sure. Okay. Some assumptions. So going through these, I think we have discussion points on the VHFA down payment assistance program. We have help me out here, guys. We have the the union, the section nine, the union discussion and the density piece. We have you don't you have the change that you need to make at the top of page four. It was 27. I think we're opening through common community service supported housing. I think our next discussion point is is page 10, the the question with Ellen just confirming with Ellen about the, overlay and manufactured housing. And then we have section nine, which is on page 13, the union labor and density bonus proposal, and then we have Alex's Alex's addition on page 15, and maybe we could get him, I assume if we can. Yeah. I wanted to go get he was in SNR and just grab him in or bring him on over if that was possible. He may be be in conversation because they're also trying to get their housing going. So and then I think the last piece is are the are the positions and the appropriations. So those are all those are the last decision points I think we have. So sections eleven and twelve. So, committee, what is your shall we begin with some how about let's begin it again and work our way back? Vehicles. You have I'll just remind you. We've got TED's I think it's TED's. Yeah. TED's fiscal summary here. You could borrow mine. Yeah. TED's fiscal summary, this one on housing. You will recall that with VHIP the what's in the governor's budget is 4,000,000 and for VHIP and with this committee has been we helped create VHIP, and we are proud of VHIP, and we put in an chose to put in another million dollars and ask for $5 for VHIP. Any thoughts on this? I can can continue this conversation in appropriation, but as you may

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: remember, I was going back and forth with both in the disability housing community and the commissioner about recent potential for ineligibility of Yes. Disability housing would Yeah. Be That was concerning to me. So

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: You could do that also as an amendment if you if you wanna or we could do it today if we

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: There's the commissioner, so he can maybe speak to Okay. How this might unfold it properly.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Commissioner, we apologize. We have to get a book, and here is the most attractive book you could ever have. So we needed to to bring you in for two pieces, if you don't mind. Okay. Can we pivot to Alex? Because I know you have to go back to s and I. Right?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: I'd like to.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It is fun, isn't it?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: I do have to go. Okay. I know you're wonder.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. If you just pull up a chair next to Cam because Cam's gotta keep moving. So if you could just come and talk to us. There are a couple of things that we just want. First, we wanna chat with you about the addition of in the designated areas. The Yep. The quest the the request of your language, which is very I I believe a fairly simple addition is on page 15, and it's just simply that you're adding in the designated program. A portion of the center is listed or eligible for listing in the National Register of Historic Places unless recognized by the program as preexisting designated detox center. Can you explain to us why why that was important for you and your team?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Sure. Okay. So so right here, we're looking just in this just the memo we sent the other day focused on new town centers specifically. So there are only three new town centers, three Now new town the the designation program, including some changes that are being completed 03/25, it is is the centers are built around this concept of there being a historic district at the center. Right. Maybe I'll leave it there so we don't further update it. There are three legacy new town centers that for all intents purposes, including an ACT-one 101, are intended to be treated as centers just as any other. One is in South Burlington, one is in Berlin, and one is in Colchester. There's some language that didn't carry through all of the steps that was intended to carry through all the steps that says the new town centers get an exemption from that historic requirement. So you can still be step one, two, or step three as a new town center if you meet all the other requirements, just not the historic requirement. It said the exemption carried through in step one, carried through in step two, and for some reason, just never carried through in step three.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So this is an exemption which enables the three new town centers, which already exists?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: That's that's right. And and one in particular meets every other criteria for a step three center, except for having to start this from that center for Arlington. But we also want for Atlanta and Colchester to have the same opportunity if they choose to.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. It was fine by me.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I mean, I think it's a longer conversation, but I I just feel like we're losing track of how the designated areas relate to tiers, relate, like, I was hoping we'd have knit that together more.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think we're in the process of doing that.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I hope we are. Yes.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: I can offer that it is nicely cleaned up in 03/25.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yep. What's happening in natural?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. That's right. That's why we have to go back to it. Yeah. This is only to clear

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: up these three legacy. So this would never affect any other centers. It's only three that were created previously.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And then you walked in as

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I was talking about VHIP. Yes. So

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: so what's so the next decision point is about VHIP. We have I know, of course, you can't advocate for this, but we have actually, at least at the moment, have 5,000,000 in here for VHIP instead of four. Sure. Because we, as you know, are big fans of it. However, VHIP did something that we were a little discouraged by, which is to hold the eligibility for housing, service supported housing.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well and right. So we I had just brought the commissioner into the conversation about what happened between the this organization's previous application and this one that may have translated to them as we're not allowing this pot of money to be used for these types of projects?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Sure. So I'm still getting caught up to speed on what changed between the two applications. So I also never read myself in front of For the record, Merrill Fisher in the department has a problem. Yeah. So Riverflow, the project that's being discussed here, we awarded about a quarter million dollars to them. They came for a second application for a second project on the same site. I don't have all the facts right now, so I'm not gonna try to interpret why there was some change. I can just say, you know, the first one, I think staff and the home ownership center already felt like we're bending everything was legal, but maybe bending the intent program to allow that. That move forward. I think it's something that we all value. Yeah. So I need to get more facts from staff and from Cornerstone to understand why the second application was making one more bridge further than they could be.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So But

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: you and you so you don't think a blanket decision's been made that there's a different pot of money that accessible housing is eligible for versus the HIPAA is is not to sort of

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: That's right.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Make things pick that up.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: That's a good summary.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Okay. That's great. Thank you. And then the third thing we had for you is, again, you can't advocate for this, but initially, there had been a request for some new positions in your department. And I appreciate that you can't advocate for these. I know that all I know that you've had how many positions are being cut?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Well, not cut. Seven limited service positions will their terms end at the end of this year.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But it's been very helpful to have those seven limited positions. For

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: one time work, limited service positions are exactly what we need for one time work that's sent to them.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And why is it were they only being used for one time work?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: I'm you in a very awkward position,

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: by the you're right. So I just point out that perhaps the seven limited service positions were actually very useful and that the department which supports our housing and supports the and addresses is helping us threat the housing crisis, that that losing these seven limited service positions is at a at a time in the middle of a housing crisis is a really bad idea and not necessarily well thought out in the budgeting process. So I know he can't advocate for them, but I can. And so can Kesha, and so can all of us. So I in our discussion, I just wanted to make sure that we appreciated that we're losing seven people in that department, which is the Department of Heaven.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Or depending on the fourth time with the limited service, we'll be about I guess, it's closer to seven

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: forty eight. Maybe 38.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: I I I think 40 is what we are.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Without the limited service. That's right.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And the

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I know you can't probably say

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: I'll more than also offer, if it's helpful context, new base funding is another mechanism through which we can get additional positions. So, if we have were to make it into base, that allows us to go to the position pool to get permanent positions.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And perhaps if you had an additional million, that could also

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Type of diet, but-

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Additional million in D hip, or-

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yes, that's what we're asking for. Yes. We're asking for a position, or

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: for those who are renovating homes. We can- We take we so out of the appropriation, we we draw our our admin and there's a a statutorily specified asset that we're allowed to take and we use that to Yeah. Take for

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you. That was very helpful. And I think there was a third thing we wanted, you to address, physicians. Mommy, I think that maybe it is am I forgetting something? No. I'm good. That's all good. And we're gonna request your help on a stud on on work that our legislative council is gonna do on home ownership associations and common interest communities because it's a piece of housing that we are not all working in on a regular basis, and we need to make some progress on welcoming them into our work in this housing crisis and actually asking more of them as we go forward. We So would assume you were key stakeholders for us as we move forward for Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Great. Thanks. Thank you. I think you're chair. Go ahead. We do miss Sunny. It was a Go,

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: yeah, go help with this bill.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you for your help on all funds. Yes. Criticizing the president, but we'll say it wasn't very helpful from your boss. But I will just say that. Thank you. Bye. Thank you, Cam. Well, that good work there, Hook. You did a great job. Man, just go get them. That was it's always nice to know that peep we know where people are in the building. Okay so I'll begin again. Be here. Where are we on the $5,000,000 appropriation? Good? Okay. But

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: the question of disabled housing, limited access, what what was your question there? I

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: think we're fine. I think they're gonna clarify, but I I don't think there's anything that limits the eligibility No. Service supported housing. If they found a a great building that needed to be renovated and re if they could apply to be there. But I don't think there's any problem there. I I I think I will find out more. I think the 258,000 is critically important on the planning and resilience fund. It's technical. I believe this is technical assistance. Correct? To our RPCs is that my understanding to read the municipal regional planning and resilience fund?

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Mhmm.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right?

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: What's what we had talked about is that this is an existing fund The it's funded by the property transfer tax that we added to Yeah. Two years ago. And I have at least previewed with Senator Watson, sits on the other two committees of jurisdiction, that it feels fair to give this money to the municipal and regional planners, even if it means notwithstanding to give less to the land use review board, because our planners are first of all being asked to do a lot of work and then being told it doesn't meet the requirements the LERB has set forth. And I feel like they are the ones in need of more resources to both figure out how we're gonna meet these housing targets and how we're gonna meet a moving target of what the LERB considers tier one, two, three.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. So do we need additional I don't think we need additional language here. Think this is fine, isn't it? Fine.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And then appropriations doesn't they're have to figure out how they want to not withstand Right. The property transfer tax that funds this.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Is the is the sum in section 12, the the quarter million,

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: is that to exercise section one, Saint Bill? It's all about A piece of it.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It's a piece of it. It's continued piece to help our towns. All the planners work with our towns on these issues. I'm fine with this. It's funded by the PTTs, and I'm I'm fine with this If everyone else is, we okay? Great. Okay. The positions. I'm sorry to have been so direct, but he he is losing seven positions. This is really tough. I know this is not it's it's not like we're adding positions that didn't exist. This is keeping So you're still working backwards. I'm working backwards. I'm on page 16. And so I'm working backwards because it's an appropriation whether. The first piece is about the classified the person in the classified in the Department of Aging and Independent Living in Dale. And that is that is definitely not on this Acquisition. Isn't that right? There's been a Yeah. Full time classified position. I I think we may have to at this point, quite honestly, given that we have and that is partly my He said, I'm a banker. Where is it? It's not here. As I recall so I would say at this point, we would need to fund this to the advisory council and actually for further conversation in the house because we have actually not heard and I apologize for this. We have not actually not heard from Dale directly on this, and we have not had a full discussion of it. And I

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And it oh, yeah.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I apologize because I think it is sort of slipped through the cracks, and that I didn't mean for it to slip through the cracks. I feel terrible about it.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So if I may, I I had a conversation with a Vermont business yesterday that reached out to me and my colleagues in our district about deep concerns they have with Dale and sending workers based on apps to home care settings for residential care settings for seniors that are either not the person who was listed on the app as coming or has no training, etcetera. So I was gonna ask you separately for a hearing with Dale that the Department of Labor sits in on, on a lack of oversight of care workers. So to

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: that point, I would like to pull this action at the moment and The position. This position at the moment, and have this conversation when we get the housing bill from the house that they're working on and that we will continue this conversation because this is an important one, and we can loop in that conversation with Right. Disposition discussion. This and I assume that do you have any thoughts, Polly? Well, for the record, Polly Major is on Housing Conservation Board. I know this is an issue that the committee has heard about from the Disabilities Council.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: What they

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: are hearing from family members of Vermonters with Developmental Disabilities is that there needs to be a point of contact within Dale that can help these families and these Vermonters navigate the complex care system and the resources that are available and that they really see this as a valuable position to help providers access the services that are there and to better align services, especially as we're doing more work to align housing programs with with the social service programs within Dale. So there just needs to be that person who can make those connections, both for the families and across the programs, and we're there's not that capacity within the department. So now is what I'm hearing. And the challenge at the moment is, as you saw with the commissioner of the department of housing and community development, no one in the administration is gonna ask us for that position. That position is needed, but no one's gonna ask us for it because it didn't make it into the governor's governor's budget. Budget. It was asked for in a timely fashion from the task force, but was not able to be incorporated into Dale's budget. So we have the option of keeping of including it. Dale will not tell us in any test mind that they need this position. We know this position is needed. It would be I believe new positions are begin at the I think we're looking at a $150,000 here. We have double check with Patrick.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm sympathetic to this because I think this person might also be charged with making sure the home based and community based services that are provided are are

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Actually going to the people that need it.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Going to the people

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: that need it, have oversight and are listening to those folks about we're not getting trained workers, we're having like other issues with the Department of Labor. I don't know that I can say like, I need to talk to Dale. Yeah.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And we need to talk to to Kirsten Murphy again because she did advocate, and we did hear testimony about how important this position would be, what we just didn't hear from miss Dale. And I know that we would not hear support from your position from Dale, but at least Dale can add can confirm whether they have someone who oversees it or not. And this may be something we could either do as an amendment or when we get the house bill, let's, I would say, continue to address this as we get the house bill. Is that okay with people? You have our public assurance group. Yes. But we can. It's out for now. I think it has to be out for now. Out for now, but not forever. How about that? Out for now, but not forever. Okay.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: As you start making notes of what positions, if any, are added that are outside of the budget, I suggest that we might wanna have a conversation with the folks. I am. We are. Yeah. We're earlier rather than later and prioritize those things that we feel have the

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: discretion should be prioritized Absolutely. In Absolutely.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: If any

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I think in general, Dale is probably under resourced to do the amount of work That they have

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Completely agree with that. So let's continue that conversation. Very important one with the addition of the home base, getting the right person to home base, and what was it? What was the rest of it? At Gilts Up. Patience at a certain level.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I mean, here it says home and community. No.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. Your concern, though, is Oh, my concern. Is the the right people going to the app based

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: app based recruitment for It's a

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: legal matter for residential. Okay. So the other two are three positions in the Department of Housing and Community Development. And I I I'm not sure that the eight of I don't know where some of so what's your pleasure on these three positions? I don't you know, it's just frustrating because I don't see in Ted's work here any of the positions. So we're not but we can we we know what each position is generally valued at, which is $1.50. So, what's your pleasure? Thomas? Randy? No strong.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: What? No strong payments.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: They're not in the governor's budget. So should we continue this conversation also as we see what comes from the house? I think that Because, quite honestly, the eight zero two homes initiative I mean, I'm not sure what additional new housing is coming away from the house or a couple of things, see what makes it out and to us. So we pull these at the moment and have further discussion with the probes. And which yeah. Okay. Nope.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So removing the

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: entire That means we're removing in the entire section 11.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: At least we don't get another chance to talk about it. I just wanna say, for those of us who've been on the committee, every time we're like, why didn't this happen, or why hasn't this project got deployed? This is why. We've said we haven't filled three of these positions or we needed, I mean, like, these are the positions that have kept housing going. Yeah. Like, have kept projects that they can stay.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: So My sense is, if this is something that we feel is a critical position, and that's really the key if we conclude, as many of is a critical position, we ought put it in.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Somebody may take it out, if it's not in in the first place, it probably won't be considered that important. Otherwise, they put it in would be the argument.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I agree. And this is to the tune of $450,000. That's what this would be at the moment with those three positions. Probably that's what you could be budgeted for. And I would rather not see them pulled out of if he needs them, I would rather I mean, we

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I would knit it together with the we're we're asking them to move significant dollars to lots of little individuals who are not trained in how to access grants and support from the state, it needs positions for us to move those dollars. And that's a little bit of what I feel like the commissioner was saying. If we advocate for for treatment, maybe we leave the language of these positions in regard, like, let's say, money doesn't move unless Correct. Have positions to help

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And as he stated, the money for BHIP does not go to it goes in part to the administration, but it's statutorily limited. Right. It mostly have to go out to the housing. Mhmm. And to the building of the housing, very small amount of it is being able to be used.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But if it's based budgeted, they can use that percentage for So

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: this these are three full time positions replacing seven limited service positions, just saying. Three already are doing work of seven. And this is the would be a cost of at least in the budget of of $4.50. So if you don't ask, Randy, you're right. We don't get it's it I am happy to ask for it as you heard. I am a strong advocate for their staffing support.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: We even placed seven we have 17

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. He's losing seven. He he he testified just then. He's losing seven limited service positions. And this But not doing the same

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: thing out of something.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: What? Not doing the same thing. My guess is they're doing much of the same thing.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Because the hip was never base budgeted before. And So every time we did base budget it, we limited service.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: What is people's feeling? I think Kesha and I are pretty supportive of of these positions for housing. We're in a housing crisis. We're not doing my housing revenue bill, so we're we're not raising more money for housing. You need need people enabling. This is the low hanging fruit that helps support getting more housing done. So all of a sudden Thomas, how do you feel?

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Yeah. I'm fine with living it in. I my experience in this role is that the appropriations is gonna do what

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the appropriations

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: is gonna do. So

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And we'll be able to make the case again in appropriations for this when it's in the

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: But it's not there.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We don't need the case. So, Randy, I assume from your comment earlier that you'd be supportive of keeping up these three positions.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Think I think it's a subject. Mister Reeves. Oh, I I'm ambivalent. Truly, I understand enough now to know that, you know, by the time the term's over, these positions are critical. They'll be in. Okay. Leave him in as a placeholder.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Doesn't bother you. Okay, great. Let's leave him in as a placeholder keeping him one and two. The other decisions we need to make are with Ellen. I believe those are our money the key money decisions except for BHFA. The BHFA decision is our last money decision. And I what I will just remind you, you all got a very strong email from Laura the other day, which I am really grateful for. This, I will just remind us, enables us to keep the best the the down payment assistant at $10,000. Housing is increasing. Their down payments have to be higher. This enables more people to get the the down payment assistance that we had initially envisioned. Is that correct? Chad Simmons is over there wearing at least Greek ads. Yes.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont; former VHFA staff)]: Chad Simmons Housing and Homelessness Alliance, Vermont. Yes.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: The Former VHFA member. Former employee of VHFA.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont; former VHFA staff)]: And so, yes, the raising it to 350,000 per year and having those credits be sold to then support the down payment assistance program would allow the HSA to keep the grant the grant or the the down payment assistance at $10,000, and it would give time for the the account to be replenished. So, again, just as a reminder, the thing

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I That's key. It's a revolving fund.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont; former VHFA staff)]: The tax credits are sold, and the the proceeds from the the sale of those credits are then used for the down payment assistance program. And then once the home is sold or is refinanced, that money is then paid back to the HFA to be recycled and used for fee for future down payment assistance. And to go back

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: to the inflation challenge with Bay Tier is that because housing is so expensive, the normal churn we see, a, housing is more expensive, and, b, there's less available. Therefore, we're seeing less churn in that in that fund and less money available. So this will help bridge that and get both address the inflationary concerns and and the nonchurn

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont; former VHFA staff)]: reality. Correct. The mark the market needs more time, essentially. And so by extending the the tax credit for another five years, we'll have more time to

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: to go on and

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: pay

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: for I'm the gonna be right next Thank door at the

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: you.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. I think I mean, I'm very supportive of this, and I would hope the committee would join. Again, it's something that can always or folks will have a way and actually finance will see this first. So if we can leave it in as a placeholder, I'd appreciate it and have continue the conversation financed. Are you okay with that? Great. Thanks. Okay. So then I think we're ready for Ellen. I think we're yes on everything. You have one change in 2027 on page.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's already done.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That's already done.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I have one other change, which is to remove the position for Dale.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Exactly. I just think we have had as much discussion. Thank you. It's raised by heart. I would love to add that.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'm gonna stay and wait for any further amendment.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think that would be great if you can. And if not,

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: get to see YouTube. I'm not going anywhere.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: If you wanna sit there and just pull a bell in the chair, whatever you want. Go ahead. You hear from our support? Thank you. I appreciate you had a busy morning. We all appreciate. We just went and got Alex Farrell out of your committee. I thought you'd appreciate that. We just walked down the hall and grab him. So, Ellen, welcome. We have already walked through option three, which you kindly have redrafted in this. Yep. And if you'd like to we also have another question before we get to option three. Oh, sure. Yeah. The transit court just to remind everybody that transit corridor water and sewer accessible, being able to access it. On page we had still a question on the manufactured housing on page 10. Are you okay? Yep. Good. Great. We just wanted to confirm that this doesn't that this is an overlay on. You wanna

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: So this is my understanding. It's tell me if I'm correct that this would not indicate local requirements were aesthetics, curve design, and otherwise that this would just make it so that in a city that has zoning regulations, they could prevent something that is prefabricated, preconstructed, manufactured somewhere else, but they could still require the two stories that have an awning, that have a front porch, that it have a certain setback from the sidewalks. Is that a correct interpretation that this would not overrule local regulations that they adopt and how they want the neighborhoods to be designed for new builds?

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. They have to treat prefabricated or manufactured housing with the same terms and conditions as conventional housing. So yes, they could still have to impose what requirements they have imposed on other housing objects.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: And in no ways would this negate any of those current impositions on look and deal design?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. Deal,

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I think of that.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Yeah. Look and look and design. Yes.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. They're still allowed to have design review districts, district districts, and all those requirements as well. Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So I think I think clarifying that was our big concern. Is that okay, committee? Great. Then let's move just calmness in the marching line. Then let's move to sections eight. Is that the That that's the Yeah. Section eight is our Water sewers. Is our transit. Oh. I'd call it the transit corridor, but it's not the change. It's the water sewer extension. Yeah. I don't think we should call that that. I know. Okay. But I don't have to Okay. Economic. Economic. Okay. Economic. That's better. Economic and housing development corridor. Right. So Would you like just to go through it with us quickly? We, basically, I think we all okayed it because we okayed it the other day, but thank you for drafting.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Page 11, section eight, amending the definition section 4,303 because we have this definition of served by municipal sewer and water infrastructure, which is not really a true definition, it's more of the way that municipalities identify what these areas are. And so the first prong of that definition is an area where residential connections and expansions are available to a parcel or a portion of a parcel within 2,000 feet of municipal water and direct and indirect discharge wastewater systems, and not prohibited by state regulations or permits, capacity constraints, or capacity agreements. So that is one way that towns have the ability to identify these areas. The second prong of this definition gives the town additional authority if they have other constraints on their system and different types of areas they want to exclude. But this is the first prong for the ways towns can identify what these areas are. Right. Helpful.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And we, again, are grateful to our planning community for coming to us with these four options. It was it was great. Again, we with our limited time, have to really have to rely on the experts around the state. We're lucky we had so many of them. And our wonderful lunches still have to look at. Any other concerns? Think this moving forward, we can refine it as we move to the house, but I think this is a great start. And I think it accomplishes what we're hoping for. And it's more clear. And it Clear. Yeah. Clarity is a yeah. Everybody okay with this? Right. So our last gory section, and I'm hoping we can come to some land this one way or the other, is that they I believe the last, you know, discussion is union labor. Did you

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: talk or did you talk about section 10?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think we did. Great. Oh, we talked about section 10. We had that's why we got

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: the law.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Oh, that's why you got out. Great.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Great. And and Natural Resources took out their section that that conflicted with this. So

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: So we're

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: mean, The trains are running parallel. That's tragic.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: The trains are leaving the station at the right Yes. On the right track. Okay. Good. So

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Thank you.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Would you just go over the new language? Sure.

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: This would be adding a new section in the zoning chapter.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So it's just related to towns that

[Ellen Czajkowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: have zoning. A multiunit residential housing construction project with more than 45 units that has a project labor agreement for construction shall receive a density bonus under a zoning by law of an additional 20%.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Ernest?

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: So I'll say a few things about this. One, I see a principled stance where we want to advocate for and advance labor usage in building in Vermont. And I see another one where we don't want preferential treatment towards different types of laborers. What I would to me so those are political arguments, policy arguments. I I wanna think of the practical, and as I I do the math out on these things, and I can show you my proof, and I haven't talked to a developer, but I I just don't see this pen spinning out. Even if you assume only a 10% premium on labor, using labor, I I think it's arguably 15% or more. But even at a 10% premium, you would need a a marginal contribution profit margin of 45 on those additional 10 units. You're lucky to get maybe 25% from what I can tell. So I I just we could fast this, but I don't think it will actually I'd love a developer or somebody else prove me wrong. I just don't think you're actually gonna get somebody to wanna do 10 more units, especially when that usually triggers higher construction costs. This is all from the Google. Okay. I haven't talked to anybody. But you have to go to steel beams. You gotta go to elevators. You gotta do more underground parking lots. So we can have this debate and and conflict on those two points that Richard Wabi so eloquently argued for and I've heard here. But I also just don't know if the juice is worth the squeeze because I don't know if this is actually going to affect any policy changes or more housing. So that's why I would say just stripping it seems to be where I am to just move this thing forward.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I don't wanna put words in my friend, senator Weeks, I think that may be where you are.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I agree with you.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: I thought you might agree

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: with also. So I would at this point now, this doesn't mean that this is my new term for this week. Out for now, but not forever. So I think this is an important thing for us to discuss. It's a this is a may be a particular challenge for some of our rural communities on first, but I think this could deserve more penciling out so that people actually understand the financial implications. But it is an opportunity for density, which it may need a bigger density. The equation needs to pencil out for it to make sense.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Well, that makes sense to us, and ideally, having someone with a background in construction economics, can in fact testify to and it provides us documentation that it makes sense, then certainly might consider

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I am gonna speak to, as we go forward, obviously, the committee chairs are in concert with each other. Mark knows that we have this piece in our bill. If we take it out now, I think, particularly given the housing investment fund that the, unions have availed the AFL CIO has available for union labor projects, that should be an enticement for any major, multiunit project in the state that as you bid, that you should be making clear that if you if you accept this contract, that this is the additional opportunity you have going forward. I would to get this bill out today, I would propose we remove section nine, and we do additional work on this with the house and see if we can get it to a point where

[JP (AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust representative)]: it makes financial sense. JP. JP is called the provider of AFL CIO. I I hear your concern. My only request in this meeting would be that I would love for you to hear from AFL CIO Housing Investment Trust. They are the experts in this. They do these programs. And what they're doing in other states, how other states, municipalities have, in some cases, created funds, revolving funds, where it then invests and they buy the bonds and that sort thing.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: So I would love for you

[JP (AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust representative)]: to hear from them about what they're do that after

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yep. Yep. We're getting a housing bill. We could add this. We Yep.

[JP (AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust representative)]: I hear that.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Have the house added. I think we're we have three no votes on on the on this day. Yeah. Yeah. Because the fence went out.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I missed my question

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: now. Let me say it all again.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Okay. Quickly.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Take Gene Hamilton's time. Yeah. No. I'm I'm if I I can't find three no vote because otherwise, I just say, I I think this is a a valuable part of the bill, and I don't want to just keep Right. Cutting things that are out to get it out. So I said

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. That I wanted that we need to have it penciled out. It needs to make sense financially. Yep. So I hear Thomas. I also am gonna ask the the chair in the house to pay up this section. Okay.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I don't know exactly what it means to rent the dental out, like we give them a bigger density bonus. Yeah.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That may have to that may have to happen for it to. Great. So I I this section is out for now, but not forever. Okay? That's my that's my crossover read line. So with that, Cam and Ellen, could we come up with a new draft for us to consider voting out? Because I think we now have agreement on everything else. Ellen, thank you for your work on this. Labor, health, Well, not totally. Killing the wrong.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Draft the bill. Well, we should bring them dramatically. This is a benefit. It's a win win.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It's an opportunity. Hurting anybody else. I agree. It's an opportunity. No one has to take advantage of it. But we will live to fight this discussion another day. And I am happy to continue that conversation and feel very strongly we should continue that. But I also feel that it has to be an incentive that means something to a developer. And if it doesn't pencil out, that will be then. So we want it to be a a a meaningful incentive that that so your density bonus may have to be higher for us to lose money. But let's get you Couldn't comment. Couldn't just say one Thanks. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry. I just want say

[Gene Hamilton (Labor advocate)]: that I think there's a false assumption that that actually this will cost more money because the studies don't show that. So, in fact, there are studies that show it saves money in projects. So in terms of penciling out, I think that should

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: be Right.

[Gene Hamilton (Labor advocate)]: Taken into consideration. Maybe the input density bonus needs to go up.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That's fine. Right. And and the opportunity for the investment fund from the trust is huge. I mean, that is a

[Gene Hamilton (Labor advocate)]: big I'll just mention the federal government does this now. Think both administrations, they implemented product labor agreement for federal construction contracts. So this is not and this has been around for decades, but I

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: do And think we have prevailing wage in Vermont.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: The issue is right now

[Gene Hamilton (Labor advocate)]: Only for state parks.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Heard enough testimony that is balanced independent to convince us. And if there is such testimony, I certainly would change my vote. Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, we'll have we'll have that. Make the commitment for us to have that. Thank you so much. Thanks. So I think that we're looking at draft 3.1. You will have it. It'd be better.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I moved famous Saint John's 3.1 of the bill.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Are we close enough to be

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: able to Yes. Do I'm gonna walk through it one

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: more time just making sure

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: our cycle numbers are ready.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Got 3.1.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Oh, no. I never thought he had the timestamp. Yeah.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: 11:22. Great. Yeah.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I was gonna say, like, let

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the article get something. And we could argue about the title of it. I think for the title, actually, we

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: need a new title. The title of the bill is within the sole purview of our office. You can add a section section to title it something different that you

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: would like. I I think we need to because common interest communities is no longer a piece of this. I mean, it's a piece.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: What I can do is so so keep in mind, the bill hasn't changed. Like, amending an amendment. The body would have to approve. And if the body approves the amendment, I'll talk with the secretary's office about what needs to happen to potentially change

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: it. Yeah.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: You can find also saying that the house may want to relitigate the conversation. I'm interested in they do

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: if they're having their own conversation about it. And we will update to and have so there's a charge to the house to have full conversations and all these things. Okay.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I am emailing this to

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And what draft are we talking about?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: This will be draft 3.1, and the time stamp wait one second.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: 01:11 twenty three. The timestamp on the document is going to be 10:42. Oh, okay. Goodness.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Sure, I would move favorably S three twenty seven draft three. Three twenty eight. I would, madam chair, I would move favorably draft. Bill, S three twenty eight draft 3.1 time stamp 10:48 on March 13.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I do you have a sheet? Okay. I would ask that mister clerk call the roll. Senator Brock? Yes. Senator Chittenden? Yes.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Senator Robinson? Yes. Senator Leakes? Yes. Senator Clarkson?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yes.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And I'm I'm I'm happy to be the lead reporter, but I really would love help on key sections for people who feel strongly about certain sections. So I am happy to do this as a team effort because we do this was a good team effort. I would like to thank you all. This was this is a lot of lifting this week, and I really appreciate your support on this work. And in conjunction with what SNRE is putting out today, we have worked in our jurisdictions very productively, and I'm very grateful. So Anybody have any word from that? Well, they may be working through the floor. They wrote it no. They voted it. The the road will have been pushed to 2013. K. And to that's great. Alright. Good. So I I think a lot of their work is gonna complement our work. I think we've taken some good steps forward on housing this year. So thank you. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, advocates. You're amazing. And

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Team. Can we get them in on 03/25 next week? Sure. Actually, that's

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: a great one. We are just to give you a heads up next week. Oh, we can go offline now. Thank you, everybody.