Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Morning. How you doing? Okay. Welcome everybody to senate economic development housing and general affairs. It is Wednesday, February 25, and we are going to be addressing our economic development bill. My hope again, like as we did yesterday with our housing bill, is to really start making some decisions about what we are fine with, what we have concerns with, and what we're ready to green light. So, we've heard a lot of testimony on most of the pieces of this bill. We're going hear a little bit more about the impact study for the outdoor rec businesses. But on the whole, we've heard a lot of testimony on this bill. So I we have a new graph with and we have our trusted legislative council Rick Siegel with us, and we are looking at draft 2.1. We had one committee member online in Zoom, and Kesha 2.1 has just been posted, and I think You emailed it to her. I'll actually answer your email. I'll be there in, like, ten minutes. I also have Wesley with me. Oh, are you you're coming in? Great. Yeah. Oh, good. We'll see you soon, and we'll see you soon. Okay. But she's with us. You're with us here for a quorum, so that's good. So, Rick, why so my hope is with each section that we can just begin to make some decisions on these sections.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Sure. Good morning. Rick Segal with the office of legislative council. You all have the grass in front of you, so I can share my screen, but maybe we'll wait until you want to mark it up, in case there is markup requested. Yeah. I don't care. Okay. So there's actually not many changes from draft 1.1 S327s. They are highlighted in yellow, the changes that are there. Do you wanna go in the product line in order of

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the Yes. Let's group and see where we are on this. So we And yep.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The purpose statement has not changed.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Is everyone okay with the purpose statement?

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Great. Section two is the Vermont Downtown and Village Tech Center Tax Credit Program. The no changes, but the bill would up the allocation from 3,000,000 annually to 5,000,000 annually.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That is a decision point. So we have heard a lot about the success of the tax credit program. We and and so I we know that it leverages almost more than any other. It's one of the few really strong tools we have in our toolbox. And this is a tax expenditure and one that is one of our most successful programs that which we leverage almost, I think, at 17 to one investment in our Madam Chair,

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I would just say for the sake of the sake of expediency, I hope sometime this week we're gonna have joint fiscal in to do fiscal notes on anything.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We we have this. That We got it from we we have a memo from Patrick Chittenden on this bill. What's in the governor's budget? What is and what are our assets separately. Can have him do draft it as a fiscal note if you need So

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: we're gonna so you want us to make decisions today on what we think is worthy of funding in priority order?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think that's a I think that's really what where we have to be going for at this have to be making decisions on on the things we care about. I'm happy to hear more about this, but I think this one is really a decision point where and we don't have to make it this second, you know, if there are concerns, I appreciate that there are probably concerns. So, I know it's a short section, but it's got lots of financial impact all the way around. Gentlemen, how are you feeling? Thomas?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I'm not seeing the trade offs. So, it's a great program. I just don't know how it weighs against all the other competing interests towards these precious dollars. So, I'm not against adding it at 5,000,000, but

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I I think I need to see it at

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, it's adding to the Yeah. Sure. Three are in the

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: is in the account. Budget. The total contact. So, I'm fine with keeping it in. I just, I don't feel like I have a strong opinion on it without seeing how this stacks up against all the other. Yeah.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: With, so long and so the so we see the stack it up and prioritize.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. So we I will we'll have a money discussion when with on each section. In theory, though, you're okay with this section, the money is the question. And we'll I'll say, if you'd be kind of what Pierre and ask. We have a memo from Patrick I encourage the committee and anyone who's listening to review the memo it's posted on our website that believe and Patrick's written yeah we'll double check and we'll ask him for more than the memo. We will ask for a fiscal note on this.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: All right, section, section three, I'll continue. Yeah. At the bottom of page two, this is the small business section, various appropriations to various entities for small business support. Subsection A, no changes from Route 1.1 where, the Department of Economic Development, $300,000 will be allocated from that department to support the Vermont Law and Graduate School's public education offerings and free legal support through a Vermont Small Business Law Center. And I'll stop there. You wanna talk about that specifically? Well, there

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: and then we then and just you'll be reminded that the federal government actually came through with supporting this program, which is really exciting. And it just the more money means they can serve more people. And so Nicole Kellerman gave us strong patrimony. Thought we we have that, and this is a program where she has a wait list. So I think with all these programs, they have wait list, and that's what we have. That's what we're facing with the downtown and village tax credits is we have a waitlist. There are people every year that they can't finance, which just means there's less development going on in our downtown and village centers. With these programs, the it just means, you know, we have an opportunity to with every dollar we choose to spend above what they have been allocated, they can serve more people. So I think that's what we have to take into consideration. In this case, we're looking at 300,000 above what they have been allocated by the federal government. And I think that's what we're that's what we're talking about. I would have to pull up her testimony to remind myself how many more people but I think that's one of the things we have to be looking at. I think it's a significant number of the more. So why don't we get through this whole section and then

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Sure.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So this is a Right.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Subsection B, also Department of Economic Development, 689,000 allocated to the Vermont Small Business Development Center supporting this work in helping to find or start acquire and grow businesses. This is an increase of 300,000 from the governor's suggested budget, which will allow the senator to serve an additional 200 per month on the numerous and business owners.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And we heard compelling testimony from Linda Rosciantis and the range of resources and help they can provide. They, of course, also refer people to the legal center. It's a network of support that is been very successful and is critically important to the growth of our small business small businesses in Vermont. So and then the third piece here?

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yep. It's the micro business, where 594,000 allocated through the Department of Children and Families to VCAT, Vermont Community Action Partnership's micro business development program.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That is, an addition of And keep going. Sorry. Then there's

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: a fourth. The last subsection here is the Vermont Professionals of Color Network. This is 200,000 through the Department of Economic Development, the network of grants to the Vermont Professionals of Color to continue their support of workforce and business development services they provide. So

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: what is your thinking, Chittenden, these various additional supports? Because in each case, these are additions to their current their current allocations with the exception of a professional.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Saw a great deal of value last year. We had a table showing what the budget governor recommends were. I think at that time we had a house information. But then just comparing what the governor recommends are and what those would be above it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That's what we I'm having in Patrick's deck. Could you pull up Patrick's memo and print it out for us so that we have it with us right now? Yeah. I'm actually just ripping out and then maybe. Okay. Great. And I I mean, I just I should wish I apologize. We should have had that for I just assumed everybody had it, but I'm having a hard time. I need a printout of it in my file as well. So I know it's there, and I know we went through it with him.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: It's good to see.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So at the moment Yep. Yeah. Anyway, why don't we keep cruising, and we'll get and we'll get this ASAP.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I was looking forward to all. So we are on to sub I

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: don't I would just say that the only that that this the the professions of color was gotten nothing really in the governor's budget. This would be additional I just say, any it it there was something that was allocated to ACCD, but it actually turned out not to be directly for the professions of the professionals of our network. So this this is a a key piece of funding for them to keep to keep going. So the outdoor rec, we're about to have testimony from them on this. So we I believe we're gonna have Nick Bennett come in at 10:30 to talk about this economic impact study so we can that is an additional 200,000 also that we but to a very important and growing sector.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So that's section four. You wanna, move on to section five? Sure. Okay. Section five is the, Montreal Parade Office, 02/25. The governor's the governor's recommended one fifty, which would support the Montreal office. This bill would request an additional 75,000 for the Taiwan Southeast Asia office. Madam Chair, language is the same from last time. There was a question as to how to board this office. Is it actually an office? Is it a

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: just a

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: person? I reached out to the community. I have not heard back yet, so the language is the same on this, on that subdivision too on

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: this one.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think we're hearing from Nick on this. But I he's talking to us at eleven, but it's not about the housing bill. In our it's on it's on Nick is speaking to us on this very section, I believe. Is that correct? From ACCD, Nick Brumley is so Nick Tim is out of the country, I believe. Oh, okay. Is going to be speaking to us about the Taiwan ask, which is an additional ask. It's not an office. It's a representative. Right. So we we will probably need new language.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Just wanna maybe figure out exactly what their plan is so we can write that Right. Accordingly.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think when the Taiwan delegation was here, we learned that Taiwan has just allocated $250,000,000,000 for investment in in The US, and the Taiwanese delegation at Boston is very keen on our anchoring some of that investment here in the here in New England. And they are have they we chat I chatted about this with Tim, and I believe that ACCD is is is keen on having a representative in Thailand so that we can actually rep in Taiwan. Sorry.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Thailand. Okay. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I am thinking about Right. In Taiwan

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yep.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: To really represent our Vermont businesses and have Taiwanese businesses represented here. So I think there is a lot of interest at this particular moment with this substantial investment coming out right now. So we will hear more about that from Nick Brundley, who is coming to chat with us about that.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. So we'll skip to six, section six on page five. That's the Brownfield allocation, 3,000,000,000 allocated for Brownfield's remediation and redevelopment.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: This is a challenging one. It's not challenging for me because I think Brownfields are essential for our redevelopment of our polluted lands and areas in our downtowns and village centers where we're wanting to build the housing and develop our economies. And so the governor zeroed out the brownfield program this year, which just was a bit was astonishing. We heard good testimony from Tom Kennedy and several others at ANR. And I I think, sadly, it's sort of a chicken and egg. We can't have housing and economic development until we clean up these pieces. So this to me is a critically important piece of enabling economic development. And think, you know, it's a money issue, but I also know it's not gonna happen unless we spend money. So, anybody Tom, David thoughts?

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: support the measures the the element of the trial built group again so we're all stacked up against each other and we have conversations. Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Oh, wrestling wellness. Know. It's good to have you. Good to see you.

[Drake Turner (Deputy Director, Office of Workforce Strategy & Development)]: It's good to see you.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So good to see you. We're welcoming Randy and Kesha and us. Let's go. Thanks, Wendy. Okay. So we are now so, anyway, we're just talking about brownfields and its importance, and we will as we stack up the money, we will have the money discussion as we we, as I have said earlier, not been given a sandbox. I think we're at the moment asking for what we want. It's not our job to make the decision about the money. It's the appropriations committee's job. And as Andy has said time and time again. But so our our we our job is to represent the needs, I think, of of this state and what we feel are important needs and what we're willing to finance and ask for. I mean, that's our job. He's been having But if you prioritize everything, you prioritize nothing. So Let me give our power away. So So I think we'll a little discussion about prioritizing the money as we get this draft from Yeah. Okay. Let's keep going.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Alright. Section seven, some new language here or updated language. This is the business resources and growth study. It was previously a study and a task force. It is now just a study being done by the Department of Economic Development, which that was in the last draft. However, when I went over it last time, there was discussion about ensuring the study includes the stage of growth of business development in the state. So sub subsection a, the yellow language there, has been slightly edited to ensure that it addresses growth for Vermont businesses, and then subdivision one is new. So the first task of this study is to clearly define each stage of business development in order to provide business leaders, investors, and the general assembly with an understanding of the resources businesses need at each stage of development.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So I think it's there's it's a a modest nuance here. I think the other piece of this is identify what resources are available currently in Vermont and what resources are needed that are not represented, that are not currently provided. I mean, I think we address that later. Yeah. We do address that a little later.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I think maybe even the next submission could be amended to get what you want. This is old language, but it relates to your question. Identify the in state and out of state resources available to businesses and determine how those are communicated. So sense that

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. I mean, we needed this. Right. Thanks. And

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: stop making That's okay. So I was gonna say, subdivision two identifies current resources if you wanna add in something about resources not available or determine what resources are needed. But maybe let's continue on, because that might be addressed implicitly later on at the, things list. Three is to create the inventory of resources that you have researched. Yes. Four, how to best market and communicate those resources. Five, determine how to improve succession planning for mature businesses. Six, resources available to access capital for businesses. Determine the state of capital access opportunities. And identify investor education opportunities. So maybe there is that miss missing part, madam chair, about resources not available. Is that something you wanna

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I I think that's one of the key things that we were hoping for Good. Of this for this task force. So now, this study group in ACCD, I think the key thing is to identify resources we don't currently offer and that are needed. What do you mean by resources in capital access and such a different section? Well, there there may be areas that our businesses are asking for support in each stage of development from start up to early stage to maturing companies, there may be resources that we don't offer in Vermont that we shouldn't be offering in some in some way, and it would be great for them to identify those. And then we can go about fulfilling that or setting them up or whatever. So

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I don't know if that

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: may need a new subdivision or might be able to, in Subdivision 2, identify the resources that are available. Can

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Megan? We Her boss just does so much resourcing of businesses. Yeah. Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs for the Ravon Chamber of Commerce. I think some of this was in our economic development priorities. When we think about resources, we're talking about access to capital, but we're also talking about just what are the investments the state has made in workforce development and how are we communicating those resources? What are the investments you've all made in housing? When we have businesses whose employees are struggling with housing, are we communicating with the businesses what those opportunities are that they can be sharing? Childcare. I think how we define resources should be very broad because there are a lot of ways that we could be selling Vermont better and making sure people know about those things that we're not doing effectively. I I think it's important to know if our intent is to be very broad because I think Lyle will take it in whatever direction he'd like to take it, but that means we can't be upset if we were expecting something else. It's just hard, Matt, to hear to know if you're looking for something really specific that I'm not. I'm thrilled while I was taking a sack. I just wanna be clear about what we're looking for. And so I think we're also looking for not only an inventory of what we offer, but how we can do a better job looking at communicating marketing, the resources we do have to go to Megan's point and to identify things that we may still need. And the and the what the resources are should be not just capital resources by the human That's just the whole piece. Yeah. Yeah. Right. This Infrastructure. Oh, god. Yeah. Three phase power. I mean, that's the thing is there's There's so much. There's a lot. And Yes. I don't want Lyle to be set up to fail if there's something specific that would be missing. I I think this is great. I just think I I just anyway, let me think about what that might be. Maybe Megan and I can figure out what would be added. Okay. So

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: no other changes in that section about the study. No changes to the Convention Center task force, which is being given eight more meetings, 14 from the original six. Any questions about that one?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: What what oh, this is the 10 things. Sorry. I'm just Okay.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Moving Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Task force chairs were both in and asking up them to and Tom, we have our member who's serving on the task force, and they've asked to extend their work through the end of the year.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yep. Section nine is the PEDGI perspective repeal being repealed. In other words, it is set to sunset on January 1. This would fulfill the

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Let me go back to the task force for a second. I don't think a I don't think what UVM is finally developing after twenty years is is going to take the place of a convention center, but I do think it would a potential performance venue and other things. I wonder if we should just add someone from the to the task force to just make it easier to stay coordinated because that is the only event center big bill that we know of in the company.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: But I'd love one

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: to drop a new.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, I'm just saying, like, what this group could then say, hey. We have this inventory of needs that would be met by UVM if you did x y z. Not to mention UVM was the last entity to look at a downtown convention center of sorts for their needs as well.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Great idea.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Sure it makes sense.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I'd love to add a member from UVM

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: or Can you already consult can't you bring in a person from UBF? I think if you're gonna have that many more meetings sorry. They are the they are the group that's Building 1. So, you know, I don't know that consulting I mean, I was on the top board originally to do the event center in the app, and it's very involved. They probably this group now, if they get their money, will probably start meeting, including with students. Yeah. Biweekly. Nick will also be here, one of the co chair. Nick Nick was one of the co chairs? Nick Tom? Nick Brown. Yes. Sounds right. And so I I think if if you think that would be a a good addition how many you have I can't remember how many is that. Four seven? Oh, it's a good size.

[Drake Turner (Deputy Director, Office of Workforce Strategy & Development)]: Could we

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: pull up the original

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: language reconnect and

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: add a UBM? Share my screen, Kara. Kara has kindly printed out the memo that initially done for us, it's missing the downtown village tax credits, but that

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: is Missing the 75 per ton loan.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And this time again, the Montreal one. That's an older yeah. That's with

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: this report.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yep. We're asking him for a current fiscal.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Full year.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Transition

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the fiscal note? No. Oh, okay. What oh, it's what Pat had initially brought us Okay. When we were beginning to talk about this bill, we wanted to see what was in the governor's recommend and what was what we were asking for. Yeah.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So on the screen, these are the members of the task force. You have two legislative members, the commissioner of economic development, our designee, the president of the chamber or designee CEO of the Lake Chamber, Lake Champlain Chamber of Commerce, the president of the, RDCs, and the chair of the Vermont Association of Planning and Development Emphasis. So you have seven pieces of the progress of that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Honestly, like none of these people do events or transportation the same way UVM does. Like, right. Just So I think So you've suggested we add a a member from UBM. The question is do we, add the president designee? Who who would who would we, you would come? You're the one who works

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: list a name,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: but I think

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: the president or designee, but Jeff Sheldon, director

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: of Exactly. I'm loving. Company. So Or director of events. But Yeah. But, yeah, you could say Kesha Ram Let's ask Wendy. Let's ask Wendy. Let's text Wendy and ask Wendy what we should who who we might ask. That would be great. Okay.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Okay.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Any sunset? Questions for peeling the sunset?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Are people are people okay with this? I assume we're all okay. We can sign off on this section. Great.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Alright. Next section. Section 10, also veggie. Yep. This is the enhanced incentive for employee owned businesses. We are gonna hear from Jessica Hartleben about this in

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: a minute. Okay. And, I think she is gonna have a recommendation for us on this.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. And if I could on the the one change on page 11 that I made, senator Rutland District had a question about employee owned businesses.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think it's gonna be moved after the conversation, Jess.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'll have all this information that I will hold.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Oh, okay. Letting Ted shield us because it's all

[Drake Turner (Deputy Director, Office of Workforce Strategy & Development)]: Well us enough.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The question was, have we defined employee owned businesses in the law statutes? The answer is no. There is interestingly a section in the VITA chapter, that refers to employee owned businesses. I have it pulled up on the screen here. This is the, direct loans authority that BINA has, and there's a subdivision here talking about preference to projects involving loans to employee owned businesses. So if the term is used, it's not defined. You can see how you can read that or not. So that the sir. This is the yeah. This is the statute on VITA, direct loans. And

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: all it says, it just refers to employee owned businesses.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Right.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And it talks about how so it's not defined. And I think that's

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: a And choice or if that I can some workers cooperatives are not defined either.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Well, we have a in Title XI, we have worker cooperatives, like, organized organized. So that is defined. Employee owned is kind of a umbrella term, right, or maybe worker cooperatives, maybe these employees stock owned businesses. So I guess my answer is it's a choice. You can define it, as we have in here as an umbrella term where you just leave it and have Pepsi determine, hey, we think this is an employee owned business, or maybe it's not. So for now, I I took out that there was some debate about the seniority of the vote, that someone who's been there longer has a stronger, so that removed I think we wanna hear from you all. So back to the old one person, one vote would also be an employee penalty. Correct. Yeah. Perfect.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And I would defer our discussion on this until

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: we hear from Jessica. Okay.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Then we have brand new language on page 12, section 11. There is a request to conduct a study to determine the viability or feasibility of a new culinary institute in Vermont. I would read the purpose statement. The state of Vermont lost a significant contributor to its culinary workforce pipeline development when the New England Culinary Institute closed during the COVID-nineteen pandemic. The general simply finds the establishment of a new culinary institute is critical for long term workforce needs in the food, tourism, and hospitality sectors, sectors that are significant for the economic health of the state.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: So I fully Yes.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I fully support this. I I miss NACI. I miss going to NEKI Church Street and a variety of things. And I I see this as an important thing. I'm just wondering if we'd wanna expand it. Maybe it sort of does, but the new culinary and hospitality institute, we're trying to broaden the scope of this. Well,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the real purpose from my point of view is the Culinary Institute. We are desperate for this pipeline. All our restaurants need this pipeline in our for our workforce, and it is a hop in the hospitality sector. We do have hospitality education in both our CTEs. Well, we have culinary CTEs too. Okay. And but they we don't have any place in Vermont for them to then graduate and go to to get the next certification. We do have some hospitality, and Megan can speak this more clearly, and Drake can speak this more clearly than I can. There is the next level in hospitality, I believe, Hasselton. Is that right, David? And and at UBM. So me check. I might just defer to Megan and Drake a moment. We have some hi, sweetie. Hi.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Well, is not getting neglected. I think that would

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: be interesting. Castleton is hospitality management, so you think of Right. Getting into hotel management and things like that. VM has a hospitality management program as well, but in terms of that, the culinary piece, well, let's say, different side of CPs.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I wasn't familiar with those two.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And I think the hospital and, you know, the culinary piece is a piece of our hospitality industry. So it's a subsection of our hospitality industry, which is, I think, how this is meant framed to be framed meant to be framed. Is that right, David?

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Oh, so I would agree with senator Chittenden to include this as an aspect of their study. But I'm wondering why we need to set up a task force to do this. Like, we can't task, you

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: know, ETSU as part of their strategic. I've asked them and they're that I've become those conversations. If all minutes,

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: we can ask for a strategic plan for BTSU for four years, the education committee. Have not yet. This would be a prime aspect of something that they should be considering or not considering. Oh, we the office of

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: workforce strategy and development has actually stuck up their plate to say they would like to convene this conversation with CCV and BTSU. Drake, may I defer to you? Doctor.

[Drake Turner (Deputy Director, Office of Workforce Strategy & Development)]: Sure. Drake Turner, deputy director of the office of workforce strategy and development. Yeah. We I think there's a lot of alignment for this task force or study to have some support from the office. It's an alignment with the state workforce development board prioritization of Senator's hospitality and tourism is one of the five priority sectors that the board has identified as needing more workforce. And sort of playing that convening, coordinating role is what you all created the office to do. And we also do have representation from the State College System on the State Workforce Development Board. So we'd be happy to convene as broad a group of stakeholders as possible, but definitely do believe and would be happy to to play that role as this is something that

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: we know is really important for the state. The stakeholders, David, are listed on page 13 in number d, and JPSU is definitely a key piece of of this of the stakeholders, obviously. So there's no appropriation? No. Okay.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I don't see the Department of Labor. We can add

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And I would only support this if we add Corrections because Corrections was the last organization to try and do a culinary institute and they're the closest to a majority of our restaurants in Chittenden County at least. This was a we got very close with this and that's where I see a lot of promise. Well, we could certainly ask for DOL and DOC to be consulted. They are surely stakeholders in all this. And it is a great way for us to take our lumps from corrections into really productive workers' hearts. David, does that I I realize that

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: you're asking about something else. I don't wanna upset this issue. I just wonder I'm wondering out loud why PTSD is already from talking to this January. You

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: can't hear it. Okay.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Vincent made that marble thing. It's important for the

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: state It's a 11 treat. That's sorry. Yeah.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Yeah. I'm not gonna push back on the initiative. I just I'm wondering out loud why the Jitsu is not already developing and delivering a strategic plan which would include this topic as another substance. We get nothing. We don't know where they're going with their various instances.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So I like that idea, but not because I I'm very supportive of the office taking this on, but I think one of the things we might ask for in terms of what comes out of this work would be the VTSU using this work as a a piece of their of their strategic plan going into the future. Let's think about how we could add that to this. But I think to all this convening, it is a good one. It means it'll happen. I have a great faith in it. We'll actually get something back in a sort of road map for how we might proceed. VTSU is gonna be critically important to this effort, Shell, because that's where I began in this discussion with with Joyce Judy and Tiffany Walker who has worked for us for VTSU and CCV, Joyce Judy's. So it is the natural umbrella for And I think one of the things we might ask for is in that capacity would gauge how this might fit going forward under the umbrella of VGSU or it's also we could work on language that how would this fit into the strategic plan for VTSU. Could we work on that language, company along those lines? Sure. Because I No.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: I I support the initiative. Yeah. I do support the idea of feminism also analyze hospitality industry as far as current coverage. No.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I I hear what you're going

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: to do. You're we're yet a strategic plan.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: And well, I I was concerned a little bit about you mentioned that you passed four years. Four different years for that. I I did. Did you get any feedback at all especially how they did feel like was it funded for them to do? Is there any money?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We're talking about Vermont State University. It's sort of a separate subject. But It is separate. Yeah. But one that the end of committee is concerned with. I mean, so it's UVM explored a lot of both. Right? Like, just because you explore a culinary institute, they're expensive. They have huge liability. This feels like it's determining that we're going to have a culinary institute at I would hope we would. But we can't I I think that's the job of this group is to look at what what it would take to set one up, and that's what- I I would recommend we hear from corrections about how far they got with the culinary institute before we support them. Yeah. We haven't heard from anybody that they, like, the challenges of creating a culinary institute. Right. So this is an idea that I that I have. Is this gonna take away from the work that you're doing in other areas? Like, who is gonna manage this?

[Drake Turner (Deputy Director, Office of Workforce Strategy & Development)]: It's a it's a good question. I think the the goals that the board had put forward include a focus on hospitality and tourism as one of the priority sectors. So it's something we're anticipating devoting time off. So it's not like a whole new body of work. You know, surely, will take time to convene folks, but I do think that's something that we would be doing, you know, regardless. So it's it's priority of the board. I I think I feel confident that we would be able to do it and work closely with the folks identified in this language.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: The yeah. I mean, the only culinary institute in the state right now is actually at Saint Johnsbury. There is actually no culinary institute that's beyond CT. Right. And so the closest thing we have is a even actual restaurant. Well, we have that at River Valley too. We have we You can have go up into the public. We have culinary in CTE, really good culinary CTE. At the moment, they don't really have any place to graduate into for further education, and and we need a pipeline. This is a work a big workforce development area. The pipeline is dry at the moment. I just that's like, we're not disagreeing about a need No. For I'm I'm happy to hear culinary artist, but I don't know. I like, this feels like the part is way in front of the doors. Which which college organization should stand up and administer it? How is this through Well, that's what they're gonna discuss. It. Megan?

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I have to ask you a question. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Of Dave. Is that if you've asked, she's got to the minutes and back, but if you took four years to do this, that'd be gotten done. That's a separate topic. Think that is relevant because if the reason they didn't do it is because they thought it was in practice, that if there weren't the resources

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. It's nothing to do with the

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: culinary institutes specifically. Right. Broad ranging umbrella, strategic plan Right. To all the campuses, CCB, etcetera. But was that included in

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: what you asked? Never understand. Never

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: understand. Just don't know enough about standing up with culinary institutes. We don't either, and that's why we're asking them to explore it. Megan, do you have some thoughts on this? Under the Vermont Chamber umbrella, it's the Vermont Independent Restaurant Group and workforce trained culinary staff. It's a huge challenge that is especially since negative close. Think having a set of free language that pushes this conversation forward is the opportunity to have like the convention center study to say, what are the challenges that are getting in the way? Getting everybody at the table

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: with to

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: talk about what are the challenges, what are we going to need to do, where is the best? I think that's one of the part of the language. Where would be the best place to have us? Who can we be drawing from? Can we be drawing from DDoC? Can we be drawing from DOL pools, Vermont workforce? Are there other people in other states we could be filling in? I think the goal of is to answer some of those questions, especially where it may be hard to answer those questions in committee now with timing, but say, let's do that outside of the session to bring those

[Drake Turner (Deputy Director, Office of Workforce Strategy & Development)]: people together, answer those questions,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: and come back with sort of a coordinated, here's here's what the thought is. No. So I'm willing to call it culinary education or something, but I I mean, higher education is changing away from brick and mortar as we speak. If someone like, we we visited the police side, you know, and I'm happy. No one can spend sixteen weeks training on-site. I this is a key piece of work for But we're we're looking at this for the first time. I appreciate that. An effort done both. So I would happy to hear from DOL. Happy to hear from Jay Ramsey on this. Happy to hear from whoever in direction was involved with that culinary work, happy to hear from a couple of people. We'll hear from a couple of people. This is the first time you guys have seen it. I've certainly shared my thoughts about wanting to do this. And I think we found a group that was willing to continue the conversation and convene the conversation, which is exciting because we've been missing this for five years. David? No.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: I do. I agree with senator Rutland still about just deleting the word institute and serving them for

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: training or whatever. Pipeline works

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: right. With.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We'll think about that. I'm happy to bring some people in what we really you know, and that's what they'll determine. What do we need and what time Thank you.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'm catching a

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: call. Okay. So we will we will identify some key players in this and identify the key needs. And Megan and Drake, we might ask you for some help on some of those Okay. Rick.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. That's so that's

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think that's it.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: What that said. The effective date since the last section, no changes there. So Right. That is the draft 2.1.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. So we thank you very much. The piece we have from Patrick at the moment, it doesn't seem oh, yikes. That's all. No. That's the book. Yeah. Has some of the sections that you see. So we could we could talk maybe talk about the sections that are here. We can wait for Patrick to do a joint fistula or we could look at what's here? I think And and you guys want while we're while we're all having fabulous food, Would people like to wait for Patrick's joint festal show? Wesley, are you going to chat? Hold on. Do you want all What? Of We had planned I mean, I had really hoped we would have forward discussion about each section here. We could it's the committee's pleasure we could take yeah. I just wanted to talk about these sections and see what where your support is at the moment. We can it sounds like a lot of it comes down to money, but you have the money in front of you in terms of what in the governor's recommend and what we're asking for in addition. And this this doesn't have the downtown tax credit? Yeah. No. It doesn't. I just said that. It doesn't have that. Okay. Credit to Montreal or Taiwan. The one thing we didn't talk about is the b The ground fee? Yeah. And it doesn't have ground fee.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: There's nothing that the governor's recommended in front of us.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. No. I know it's just hard to is is this the governor's this isn't even Yes. Is. It's the governor's recommended.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: To make sure. We have to Okay. We we need to call for what we're recommending or what's in

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So our current I don't think I work with Patrick to get that and then we will have. So we heard from Wee Wee about that this isn't even accurate. A 60,000 is not The 60,000, I said that. We that the 60,000 is not Not correct. Professional. Right. So we have a recommendation. We have a recommendation from her for 200 She's been in here. She has given us a very good memo describing what the need is and why it's so important to them at this moment. And the so is this housing and economic? No. I don't know why VHIP is here. Because I have thoughts on VHIP, not the amount of the We do have VHIP included, but not in this bill. It's in the housing bill. It's at $3.20. So it does have the Montreal Trade Office in it, but just not the Taiwan one.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Because it was before they added it. So I think it might make the most sense to wait until we get Patrick's joint fiscal note. And that are there any sort now that we've gone through it, I've got But does he have all of the requests that have come in? Does. So he had Weeks, Yeah. And I would encourage all of you to refer back to Weeks memo, which is good. If you don't have it, we'll get it to you. We have memos from every one of the people that and we've had great testimony from them. And Nick. No. No.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I don't

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: want replacing. Infern. No. I'm I'm just so we are our next so I think we're on a little stuck here at the moment because I was hoping we would have fuller discussion of these sections. And maybe independent of the money, we could have a discussion of how you're feeling about the section. So if we put money aside, what do you still need? I think I'm clear on the culinary institute. We need to need to hear from a a few key players on the culinary institute idea. But other sections, what do you still need to hear? What how are you feeling? Is it just the money? I have the feelings for the benefit and tax credits, for example. It's the the money that you're weighing, the $2,000,000 difference between the governor's ask and what the what what's the need is. The need could take as much as we can give it, and it's an amount I know the department has wanted to take those down income tax credits up to and just haven't been able to get the governor's budget team to go there.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: But I just wanna make sure nothing gets lost in the shuffle. Is the common good request that we heard from, is that in this right now?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Or not. Okay. And the amounts are different. Right? For the micro business, this has different amounts of chairs. Right. Because some is in the governor's at Rutland, and some and it's 300,000. So it's yeah. There's certain amount above, and I that one, it's not as it's not. I don't think Yeah. We'll do anything without even, a total. It's like it's just you know? Okay. But you have multiple totals, and you have the ideas. So the ideas is what I'd like to discuss. Yeah. Jay?

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: You mentioned that we were here in section for the outdoor rec and. I don't see it on the schedule because I'm wondering if they're if they are coming back here today or if they're going to

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the next. They are coming. It's there it is. Nick Bennett is the it's coming at 10:30. Thank you. So Are we just talking about I would encourage us all to identify the memos from the people who've done this ask so you can review them. Common good, Thomas, are are you wanting to ask us to consider including common good?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I hear there's, traction and support in the house. So I'm wondering how this I didn't see anything wrong with what was I certainly see value in supporting the nonprofit communities out there and focusing on solidations and mergers. I guess my question would be, how does this usually work? So this goes forward with the senate without this, the house gets it, but is there a similar bill in the house that we're just gonna try to sync up?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: They don't. They're waiting for us for an economic development bill. They there is certainly something we could add it to. If you'd like to add it here, I would I would I am open to. It is just that this draft doesn't have it. The ask is remind us for how much.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: So But we

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: have this memo from Emma, and it was right behind you.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Yep. Have the memo in front of me. So I think they had asked for about just shy of 300 for one time, and then they did ask base funding. I'm really honest. I think that's big ask for first time request, but it seems like something that we need to look at with the federal landscape, Shana.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Hear, hear.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: You know, we did the red, yellow, green in terms of an idea. We almost ought to have an idea in terms of funding priorities of how much. You know, if you took all the funding priorities that we have and that every other committee has somewhere, and this is really a prose job, but we have an opinion, and that is you start from the top with whose first priority, most important thing to do. If you look at all of these things, what's the most important thing of all the things we have to do and then plug accordingly down the line.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, that is what the discussion in front of us is, that's what the the discussion we have. I mean, we're now very close. It's not a big bill. It's very clear on the sections we've heard from everybody. I think that we would need a very specific number from common good for us to go forward. And maybe, Emma, would you like to speak to that? Do you have we we have their memo, a terrific memo we looked at, but I don't I mean, a realistic ask at this moment would to include in this bill given that we're looking at a range of in terms of supporting our business support. You know, 2 or $300 is sort of where we are in terms of the other assets. Definitely understand. So, Emma, why don't you introduce yourself and and chat with us about it? Let

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: me let me put you on.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Alright.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Thank you

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: very much. See you better. Thank you.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Kids, you're worse. They get worse in their teens.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Appreciate it. Fred Record, Emma Paradise with Tommy Dixon John. And I definitely understand that for a first time request, even face funding, it is a long time. So we would definitely really appreciate your one time funding. It's not our job to figure out where it's one time or based. Yeah. Our job is to do the app and to say, this is an important sector that we care deeply about. It's incredibly important to our the growth of our businesses. Nonprofit sector is a huge piece of our business here in Vermont, and we support it fully, and how can we better support it? So that is what we need from you. Yeah, I think the asset we have in one time funding for the technical assistance is $295,000 and that does include nonprofit and the cross sector convenings, but 75% of those funds would go towards technical assistance for nonprofits. Bulk of those funds would go directly to organizations. That's 2 and 21,000 for the technical assistance slide out without anything else other than that. So yeah, I think for $300,000 What's

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: the benefit? First blush, looks like we're adding a layer of nonprofit bureaucracy on top of all the nonprofits. We already attend to nonprofit interests throughout a variety of different bills. What's the benefit to everybody at I the

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: think addressing some of that bureaucracy is really the benefit, and that a lot of this funding would go toward organizations who are exploring mergers, consolidations.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Why can't they do that on their own?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It's really difficult to do that in partnership work without additional outside funding. The examples that we've seen in the state so far, Big Brother Big Sisters of Vermont recently merged with Big Brother Big Difference of New Hampshire. Sort of like the visiting nurses. Yeah, so they were on the verge of having shut down. They had external private funding that they were able to access to support the merger process, and were actually able to grow their services and presence here in the state of Vermont through that partnership. And so I think it's examples like that in the agencies on aging, who have also formed a shared services model where they're seeing cost savings through shared benefits, shared administrative services, and so while still maintaining their independence and crisis throughout the state. So, I think really this proposal would support that sort of movement towards a more sustainable and efficient nonprofit system that would not be possible otherwise taught.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I guess what my concern is, I think we have too many and my worry is what I'm seeing on the landscape right now is that these nonprofits that they're playing that are they're to crash and burn because they're running out of fuel. Whereas I I do see value and if we can gracefully have them land and possibly then change ownership and title to consolidate them back off the services so that public dollars and philanthropic dollars can go further.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Well, it's like a business. Yeah. You know why? It is a lot of time. Sure. They they are. So, some survive and some don't and for the state to get involved in assisting in that those initiatives. I'm just not sure it's best use for money. I'm I'm just trying to understand what the benefit is. Like, what, you know, what what are we what what does the state get back in return for this investment? Well, the state gets back in that one out of

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: every five Vermont workers works for a nonprofit. It's not an up note, Chittenden. No. And I'm just trying to say this is a big business sector in our economy. And as Linda Rossi said, I don't believe Linda's able to provide, for example, the Vermont Small Business Development Center, David, I don't think they're able to give their services So, to and that is the, I think the big I was stunned to learn that. I do believe the legal center, the Vermont Small Business Legal Center is certainly able to give its advice and counsel to nonprofits. Believe Yes. And they do to some degree. We're partnering with them and others also on a legal hub initiative where we're actually scaling up lawyers in areas profit expertise including mergers, alternative business structures and things like that. We have CLEs coming up this spring so we're actually growing the number of attorneys who are able to access larger things.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Do you have access to Vermont Big Lane?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: They serve individuals. Yeah. They have.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Okay. Not businesses, not province. Well, not province. Just looking to see if

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: they're Yeah. I think they just serve individuals. Okay. So what other sectors of resource to go back to our inventory resources. What other resources are you cut out of as big as nonprofits? What can't you get? I know you can't get small business development center to help. There is really we are the state nonprofit association. Right. There have been, you know, some grant programs that have allowed. Sometimes they've actually not excluded nonprofits, but otherwise, most technical assistance in the state is focused on for profit businesses, or municipalities. Right. So I think there's just, there's a gap that we're seeking to go. Right. And it's a, yeah.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: So thank you. Does your organization charge a fee, your members?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So we have members but we are a fee for service organization. We receive no public funding currently.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Have you considered asking for a community to do exactly what you're asking the state to fund it?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So we have a network of consultants that we work with. We're a very small team so we don't have the in house capacity for people You don't to currently

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: because you're not funded. Right. But you would potentially, to your point, grow to stop that, to create that case. Why not ask your organizations to self fund so you can manage the type of graceful Salvation.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: All due respect our budgets are pretty limited and still currently.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Salaries aren't that limited but you know if you check a lot of the non profit salaries there's a little margin in there to take care of yourself.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But there's a range from UBM, which is a nonprofit, to Pentangle and Woodstock, which is a nonprofit. I mean, there's a as we all

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: know, there's a big range. If they haven't even asked there to do what you're asking the state to do for you, to fund for you, why not first ask your own organizations to start doing that effort on their own initiative as opposed to asking the state to fund for you? Just trying to ask some of the more challenging questions that the market constituents would ask of me.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Currently, when an organization comes to us with a question or inquiry or a challenge they're seeking to address, we typically refer them to a private consultant, because they pay out of pocket for those services. But really, I think when we're talking about being proactive, when we're talking about making sure that they're looking for the future, that they're not having emergency situations. Think this is the sort of thing where additional resources to support that effort are really critical to. So when you, for example, I've experienced you in the past when in sort of the precursor of common good, As a board member of a lot of nonprofits in the past, we have often gone to you provided trainings for how to be a better board member, how to how to you know, for all all the jobs in, provided training. Mhmm. I assume you charge you still do those trainings, and I assume you do charge a fee for those. Yes.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: So I

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So I think that's the going to David's question. And you do charge a fee for those. We do. Yes. Our certificate programs, webinars, those are all fee for service. We try to keep them acceptable to organizations, but that is primarily how we generate revenue for our organization. But that doesn't cover, you know, ten hours of one on one technical assistance for an organization. That's a different time frame. Okay. So, Thomas, you're wanting to for us to consider adding this to the bill, adding supporting common good to the bill, and at what level would you wanna consider this? Schubert.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: So I'd say the one time funding seems like a reasonable approach. I share some of the concerns that senator Weeks is highlighting that it's important to me that this can be focused on ways to to consolidate, the nonprofit sector does not necessarily support the currently fragmented industry. And I just didn't want it to be lost in the shuffle in the context of all the other asks. So this is some good testimony on, that's why.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah, yeah. And, I, I, I appreciate that. Randy and David, would, are you, would you be willing to at least look at, look at this at a, perhaps at, a little less, not 300, but, at either 200 or 200,000 for consideration anyway?

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: You're the senior center. Well, I'm unenthusiastic, quite frankly, because of the amount of money involved involved just doesn't hit me as much priority and counts of things you need to put in priority. And it's always difficult in this situation where there's no effective guideline as to how much money there is spent.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We're not going to have I know. We're not going to have that.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: We absolutely have to keep in mind everything we do is value to the taxpayer.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: And that's what I'm concerned with. It's not so much the priority of what we have to spend or how we do it, because that largely falls to another committee.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: And as I say, I'm not tremendously enthusiastic. I mean, it's not that you do bad things, I'm not saying that at all. You do good. But what I am saying is that we have to exercise a degree of judgement as to how we spend money, even though we are an intermediary in the spending process. But every time we have a constituent who says, How are you spending the state's money? We're accountable for that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. So, I would suggest, actually, that this bill will hopefully make it to the House, and that you give the House House Commerce the time and get on their agenda early as they take this bill up, and that you make your pitch because it can always be included in the house and added on to this bill, and then we can negotiate it further in a conference committee. I think that at this point, that probably and we're gonna have a challenging enough time among the five of us agreeing to what we are willing to pass out of this committee at the moment. So as you've already heard, so I think that at this moment, I would boldly propose that you make your case in house commerce and and take it from there. I fully support your work. I think you do excellent work and it's much needed work, but you have not had state funding for it. And that may have been appropriate in the past, but it's actually, I don't think everybody asked for it. So for a first time ask, I think I think the house would a great place to start. Emma, thank you for your work and thank you for your advocating for this sector because it's such an important sector. And it's we forget that every one of our colleges is a nonprofit. Every one of our arts organizations, historical societies, libraries, all those are all our nonprofit businesses. So it's a huge sector in Vermont and one that we all rely on and a little bit take for granted. So it's I really appreciate you putting your stake in the ground and saying, okay, we're important now. Help help help us in some fashion. Thank you.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: And I think the other thing would be as you look at the house, and this could be a place to do it too, but we got so compressed on time. Just think of the way that you presented it to us and you think of what other folks could present and add a different perspective, a perspective that would be more likely to make skeptics into advocates.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Appreciate that. Thank you, Emily. Thank you. Appreciate your time. Are

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: we wrapping up on a?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, I had thought we would be making more decisions, and I apologize. We Patrick's stuck up in ways and means, not surprising. He because they're under the same deadline. Yeah. Okay. So

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: if the whole of the conversation's over about three two seven, I do have a a question on 03/27. Absolutely. Okay. So, I I would like to see if there's support within the committee to relieve the Senate Transportation Committee of S287, which is a bill that I introduced and has more of the wide committee members as co sponsors for an act related to studying the construction of a self funding limited access highway replacing Route 22A linking Burlington, Virginia, Middlebury, and Brutland to Interstate Loop 7. Which has a big economic impact. Which has an enormous potential economic impact. Unfortunately, Senate Transportation Committee is a bit too blocked in their time and don't have the availability or time to consider, and I'd just like to roll it into the bill to see if there's traction as it moves into the House to look at, to give it some life, and it's a study. And really the study is about how do we, with the future, evaluate the construction of limited access highways throughout the state not just Interstate 22A is the shock

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: value. Remind us remind us where 22A is.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: So my parents live in Poultony, Vermont, and I drive that road a lot, and I fully support this, because 22 A is this windy, it slows down, there's trucks that And truck routes, so that you're always stuck behind a truck. It

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: runs North South.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Mostly, Bergen's. Sorry, it's Bergen's down through Fairhaven.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: To Colton.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: And if you're in the Burlington area and you go to New York City, you go to Pointe to Berjens, so it's just a major route for getting down to that metro.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: North South. North South. Where does it begin?

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Berjens. Berjens. But the concept is to link, to go further north into Burlington run down probably beyond the parallel of 228 but pick up Route 4 coming out of Rutland and stops at the New York border run through New York for 22 miles till we have to 8 And 7.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It joins at at Fort Ann?

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Fort Ann. No. Bottom Lake George. That's Port Ann.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay, down to Queensborough, Another keeps going

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: set of bottles. Usually you can cut right

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: at four and head over to Whitehall.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Who is doing the study for it?

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Well, there's a, it's a recommended Is

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the AOT doing the study?

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: No, AOT would be the, would lead, they'd be the lead dog in this slide. But it's, for example, the mayor of Burlington, the chair of South Burlington, the mayor of Virginia, the chair of Hailbury's, board, the mayor of the So

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: it's not a legislative There's

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: a couple legislators. I don't know I see it on the screen.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Sure, let's let's take a peek at it and I

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: just want to see if there's any is it you know, it's not going to live if it's not embedded somewhere.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Actually, that's not fully. True. I mean, it could they could also add to the transportation the miscellaneous transportation bill they're getting from the house.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: That's true.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But we can certainly jack it right here. Stimulates the conversation. And it it I'm I'm willing to take a broad view of economic development. Transport is a key piece of our economic development infrastructure. So, Rick, would you like to just run us through it from here?

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I I can read the words on the page, so I'm not I didn't grab that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: David, why don't you go why don't you go through this? Because we've got the creation of the task force. You're charging AOT with it. So it's not a legislative task force that requires legislative counsel.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Is that right? That's that's great.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. We need it for the for

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: the Thank you, Andrew. Administrative support.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Adam. They need to draft this.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I'm looking at the expense for the first time.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, my apologies for the follow-up. I was gonna talk to you offline, but since we had fifteen minutes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah, no, actually do have done this. Good.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Okay, so AOT is the lead, two members of the house, two members of the senate, and then trying to get the regional political leadership involved at the town level, and then the RPC representation from regional level. And then, the key is looking at the potential to construct, and then in this, again, for shock value, looking at 2280 specifically, because it's probably the in the worst shape, and it's a potential economic corridor beating Burlington from the West, which is huge.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: The South and West.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Well, the South, they've got 89, 91.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: And the West is the lake, so

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: you basically get to that.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Are you driving?

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes, I'm driving. Gas searches.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: So know, is essentially just telling you, what is 22A now? What is it service? What is it non service? Looking at potential routes, There are some perhaps of routes for replacement of 22A or for the access more appropriately into Chittenden County.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Has there been any study of 22A in the past in terms of expanding it or?

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Only for increased you know straightening out curves, increasing breakdown lanes, signaling, that's it. So no review of what it might be? Nothing for a limited access line.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Virginia has spent a lot of time in trying to look at a bypass.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Some installed at the book above. Yes. Got it. And then there's a major section here is how do you fund such construction. Okay so the idea is look at EZ Pass and EZ Pass is used by Maine, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New York and a variety of other states and it's self funding mechanism. You use the asset, you pay for your transport, you're moving across that road. What everybody else is doing. So that

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: would be part of the study. The

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: idea is self funding, not to less the beds to build it. Know, I'll go there.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Importantly to this, it's a commercial truck route, there's constantly big rigs. They pay a higher premium for an easy pass.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: So I'd like you just to step back a sec and take a look. The whole corridor from Regents, if anything, was built in the railroad era where railroad was king and that's how we moved our goods. And in that time frame, those towns were quite economically active contributing to our economy. Well in the twentieth century, twenty first century, Are we still aware of?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Rare Rum is still moving south of those.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: That's correct, but it's a minor fraction of, and that's all part of this analysis. How have things changed? How has it affected the economies of essentially half the state and could this be a potential benefit, economic benefit to state? That's the nature of the study. The answer could be too hard, too expensive,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: know, insufficient. But let it, give it some air. Give it some air. Give it some light. Give it some serious consideration. I am happy to think about including this, particularly as we have, know, in all our efforts to not put more pressure on the budget. This is This is run and managed by AOT. Right, mine are And convened by AOT, just like we've tried with the Culinary Institute to get the office Whole organization being included in

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: the bill is what just prompted me to say, hey, know, let's look at big levers as well.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. I'm I am happy to consider including this, although I will say that you have other opportunities, but they would be then that would be it when the miscellaneous transportation bill comes in. If doesn't get better than that, then

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: I agree.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. So I think including it in this may mean that it gets further consideration, obviously, in transportation and might get, because this will then send the bill or at least that section of the bill when it gets to the house to transportation, which is fine. Great. Yeah. Great. Thomas and Randy, what are your thoughts?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I 'll just say when I was on transportation I was called Tommy Toll because I think tolls are the ways to go in the future electric vehicles just aren't paying at the pump and the other way that all of the states around us Sure. But the other states use based assessment is a fair way that we achieve with gas taxes that we are not with electric vehicles which are predominantly charged at home where you actually subsidize that because it's an easier advantage. So, I do support the tolling aspect of this. I think it's something we need to look at over the next fifty years. With the technologies today, that doesn't mean a guy or gal sitting in a booth all day long needs license plate recognition and assessing So based on frequency of it's very feasible. I definitely support this. Sorry the transportation hasn't been able to take it up, but it's well worth our collective state attention. So

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: independent of the tolls, the whole piece of the importance of making this a more effective connector for economic development in It the

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: is effective. It is widely used. It would be more widely used or easier get on and use.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Has the same study been done about Route 7, given that Route 7 is the primary North South border on the Westside?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: One of the comments I was going to make is that you're bringing Burlington and South Burlington in, really means Route 7 down to Pergeance. Is why I'm all for Chittenden County but I don't know if we're really talking to bringing it on 22A if you need the Mayor of Burlington and South Burlington chair.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: So the idea is to stimulate the conversation about how do we bond, how do we prioritize new limited access hybrids. Route 7 is another classic example. The connection between Barrington and Troy, New York or Route 87 is another classic example. The linkage between Rutland and 89 There's so many examples. To avoid the conversation, I think would be be continuing to do a disservice too. I just think the regional planning committees might

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: be the better place than the mayor of Burlington and the chair of Salberman.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: They're all in. The RTCs are in, and they're all willing to talk. They want to contribute to the conversation.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So we don't have a huge amount of time, as you know. We would probably need at least is Joe Flynn willing to testify? I mean, are we getting if you could come up with two or three people to testify on this, that would be great. And we will make some time for it on Wednesday next week. And then we're gonna have to make final decision that we'll get Pat Chittenden. Hopefully, we'll have a joint fiscal note to us in the next day or so. And I we may have to take some lunchtime in the next week. We just have too much to get through the hose. I think we're unless Megan or Drake have anything additional you'd like to add before we end for today? I mean, we're gonna start at 10:15 again with the with Jessica Hartleben on the enhanced veggie piece. I would just say I've I love this idea. I was doing a 22 study. So it was part of the freight freight plan advisory committee. So the state's Yeah. Plan about what we're gonna do about freight that they update regularly over the summer and the problems around '22 a moving freight on 22A came up a number of times, in that in those conversations. I think this is Timely moving on. Once that group talked about its priorities for freight in Vermont Is that an ongoing committee, the freight discussion just as it grows? Is for the update. If they update their plan, they get input on that plan. I think it's a standing group of us that provides you back. Yeah. Mean, just as we try and funnel more money into getting our rail upgraded again so that it can actually be Yeah. Well, and it's freight in terms of rail and any of the programs. So, abrupt traffic as well as rail traffic. So, think the three of us are supportive of including this, if you would be kind enough to work with Kara and Randy and me to witness it, Awesome. That would be great, and we'll work on that. I'll make some space time for it on Wednesday next week. Okay?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: So six minutes left. Does the Fuel Dealers Association and the transportation sector have any strong opinions about Point two a?

[Matt Cota (Vermont Fuel Dealers Association)]: Build it.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Build it. That's what he says.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It's built. You mean improve it? Thank you, Matt. Matt, are you here for a reason? And do we need to hear from you

[Matt Cota (Vermont Fuel Dealers Association)]: at the moment? No, you breezed past my veggie very quickly.

[Rick Segal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And We're about to hear from Jessica.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Oh, the which part of veggie? The sunset or the in Are you supportive of our in supporting getting rid of the sun thank you.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: You wanna say your name for the record?

[Matt Cota (Vermont Fuel Dealers Association)]: Meadowville with Meadowville. They have a great production industrial corporation. Thank you.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Anybody on anything that we've already discussed? Great, Megan? Great. I think we're in good shape. I think, what would be great is to get one or two witnesses on the colony who you think would be the best on the Colony Institute. And that would be terrific. Thanks. And so with that, we're going to take a break, and we will reconvene at 10:15 to