Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: You are live. You are live.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Good morning. This is the Senate Committee on Economic Development, Housing, and General Affairs, and this is our Friday, February 28. We have four members of the five members being present, and Chittenden Bird is the chair, and she will be online with us while she's driving this morning, so we should all be here once we're able to have her. But since the time has started, let's go ahead, and the first item on the agenda is a review of S-three 28, which is an act relating to housing and common interest communities, and our witnesses this morning

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Is that two thirty eight?

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Three twenty eight. We have two thirty eight also, but this is three twenty eight. Oh my god. And act relating to housing and common invest communities. And our witnesses are not here. We're gonna go over, in the sections two, three, and four, with a walkthrough. Cameron Wood was in earlier this morning for a few minutes, so he can be back, if not back yet. He's gonna go through those sections with us. And then the director of Housing and Homeless Alliance of Vermont is gonna be up with us for approximately forty minutes, forty five minutes. He's showing us the problem as there is concern.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: We I'm trying to make an agenda. Do we have anything more for a vote today? With one thing

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: that we may have to vote is the workers' comp bill. As S-one 173. My understanding is even though Sheridan Stabler, she is able to vote by assuming it might pass it through. That's on a note, I'm gonna say, can circle the bullet.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Nope. Says he'll be right there.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Yeah. And I'm seeking a copy of yep. There were so many housing bills that I offered to you.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: You have one housing bill and everything else. I

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: have a good one. It's in another community.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Uh-huh. Cameron, would you introduce yourself and lead off one of the sessions that you're gonna bring us up

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: today on? Yes, sir. I'll be happy to. Good morning. For the record, Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Council. I believe this morning, we're looking at three twenty eight as introduced. Just doing a quick, you know, kind of walk through and reminder refresh on a few of these sections. I believe it's two, four, and five. I'm not gonna share my screen if that's okay. Because I can, I think, be pretty succinct on on what these sections do? If you look at section two, this is about tax credits for affordable housing

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: and what this language is gonna do on page three

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: towards the bottom. Oops. Page three. Excuse me. Page five. Page five at the bottom. The chain is gonna be in line 17. And what this is doing Yes. I can. Yes. Oh.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We're common interest communities.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: This section is about tax credits. We are gonna talk about common interest communities in section four and five, but the first section I always wanted to discuss or asked to discuss was section two, and that is about tax credits and start on the

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: page before it starts. Yes, sir. I'm coming to the Zoom. Yep.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And we're still on as introduced.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yes, ma'am.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: Okay.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Okay.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: So we are on section two, which is amending tax credits for affordable housing. These are the section which gives the Vermont Housing Finance Agency all their authority to issue tax credits for different programs that they administer. One of those programs is, as you can see here in the sub H, the down payment assistance program. So this goes all the way back to it may agree date 2016, but for the statutory section, it starts in 2016 where they were given tax credits between 2016 and 2019. Those were then extended from 2020, and they currently are set to expire this fiscal year. And so what this bill proposes to do is extend that for another five years. And so it authorized them to award up to 250,000 for the down payment assistance program through fiscal year two thousand and thirty one. That was as introduced. So I've never never been asked to make any changes to this section at this point. So just a question for you all, whether you want to extend this tax credits for another five years. Okay. I'm call a redo of

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: discussion on this. I wonder

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: if Chad has something to say about this section and this is finished gone and you

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: going through each piece, last Chad to come up and talk about each of the individual sections of drugs and institution.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But there's no new appropriation?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: It's, well, it would be extending their ability to award these credits for another five years, so next fiscal year. There would have been an appropriation impact in this fiscal year because they currently have the authority for this fiscal year, but beginning fiscal year twenty twenty seven, they would then be able to continue to award those tax credits.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Like the program, I don't know if you want to debate the program, but I think $250,000

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: goes a long way.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I know. I I think what we'll do is let let's let's go through the things so that we understand what they are, and then we have a chapter to testify on these particular pieces. And so we can we can we express our opinions. Right. Okay.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: So I'm gonna jump to section four. This is going to be on page seven, the bottom of page seven. So section four and five is where you start the sections that are amending common interest communities, typically kind of referred to as homeowners associations, but it's statute they're referred to as common interest communities, And so section four on page eight, what section what this section is doing is it's saying that this prohibition in section five is going to apply retroactively to common interest communities that are already in existence. So as you can see on page eight, unless it's otherwise accepted because there are certain HOAs based on size, which are kind of exempted from the Uniform Acts, says that these new sections, three dash one two five and three dash one two six, which are the next two sections in the field, would apply to a common history created before 01/01/1999, so it's kind of a retroactive application, and I will say that there are constitutional, possible constitutional concerns with applying this retroactively, because these are communities that exist, and they are essentially contracts that are in place for these communities, where individuals have reported the covenants that exist in the HOA, and people have purchased those homes so they've kind of entered into that contractual relationship with those covenants, and so by amending them retroactively, you are impacting the Contracts Clause of the Constitution. I'd be happy to come talk to you all in more detail about that, you know, at a point where we have a little more time, I want the respectful Chad who's next. So just commenting that. You can take that out, in which case these sections would apply prospectively to new common interest communities that are created or at a point where a common interest community wants to amend their bylaws or their articles, in which case that it would apply at that point. So it's just a question of do we want this to apply retroactively or not? Then you get to section five, which is where you have the new prohibitions. And if you all remember, there are two new things in this section. It would require an HOA to allow people to lease their unit. And this is where you get into the the detail here is going to be on page nine. So it states that the subsection shall not be interpreted to authorize a backup, excuse me, the A one on the page before is where you have any governing document associated with the common interest community. It cannot prohibit slides eighteen, nineteen moving forward, prohibit unreasonably restricted unit owner from leasing the individual unit owner's unit for residential purposes. And then when you move to page nine, you have a few conditions on that where it says that the subsection shall not be interpreted on the subdivision three here. The subsection shall not be interpreted to offer as transient occupancy. So just because you're allowed to lease the unit for a residential dwelling, it doesn't mean that you can operate a hotel. Subsection four says it doesn't authorize a unit to lease for a short term rental, so the HOA could still prohibit short term rentals under this section. And then it says it doesn't apply to a common interest community reserved exclusively for nonresidential purposes. So you could have these common interest communities that are for commercial purposes, for example, and in that case, it's not going to authorize somebody to lease, you know, a commercial space for residential dwelling in this case.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And this is where the affordable housing community came in and said, you know, they they have kind of a a income eligibility restriction they'd like to maintain.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. I don't Rent those out.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. So I've been asked, obviously I just don't have an amendment drafted up because we haven't gotten to that point, you know, in the committee process yet, but one thing that has come to my attention that individuals want to ensure is that these sections don't somehow impact or override or somehow negate the restrictions that affordable housing programs put in place. So, you know, you get state money either through a tax credit or through some other funding mechanism, it usually comes with some sort of restriction on the housing that's developed. Think BHIIP, for example, if you get funding through BHIIP, if you all remember that program, you have to lease the unit out to a certain population of individuals, or you have to maintain the unit for a certain period of time available at spare market rents. And the way that you can go about requiring those conditions is you put in a covenant in, you know, the restriction of the housing itself, and so individuals want to ensure that this change here, which would allow individuals to lease their units, isn't going to somehow override those covenants that are put into place regarding the affordable housing. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And so what I can do is I can just, you know, make sure I craft some language to ensure that this isn't an imperative to do that. But wouldn't override those affordable housing restrictions that are put in place under those programs.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: How does this then adversely affect owner purchasing property beforehand who don't want that to happen.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: So that's what I meant about that, whether you want to apply this retroactively or not? Yes. Right, so if you apply it prospectively, then That's you

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: what we did here.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: Is like

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: Currently, this would be retroactive.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: So you Yeah. But our our intent is to go to to to look at it from a forward looking standpoint. Right?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: So And as of that, the Biden should be. So so two things. You have the retroactive risk prospective piece. Mhmm. And centered to your question, that is a concern where, you know, somebody has entered into purchasing a property under the understanding that it would have these restrictions in place and to what extent do you wanna disrupt that individual's, you know, having gone through that and and entered into that arrangement. You could have it just be prospective, in which case any new HOA that comes online wouldn't be able to prohibit this, in which case the person purchasing the property at that point is gonna understand when they enter into that contractual relationship, I'm buying this property, you know that this may be an authorized use to lease at that point. Separate from that is the affordable housing piece where, you know, my recommendation would be you you don't want this language to somehow be interpreted to override those affordable housing covenants in place. You wanna keep those. So I would probably draft some language to put in here to specify that this section can be interpreted to somehow negate those affordable outcome covenants that are put in place.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I'll wait here for the remainder of the testimony today on these pieces, and then perhaps we could have, depending on time, a brief discussion where the committee stands.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I ask? So, well, first I'll say, like, if as you're drafting, I think you should draft it for the portable housing piece. I I don't think anybody wants to

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: some upset about Apple Card.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I I don't know why they chose 1999, I guess. I don't know if there's other laws that come into play.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: That is when the Uniform Common Interest Ownership Act came into Okay.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Do we have to use that date?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: So there are you're referring to to this date here. Right? So the uniform law went into effect at that point in time. Okay. And after that point in time, any common interest community had to comply with the Uniform Common Interest Ownership Act provisions. Before that, there is a separate statutory section in Title 27, which is property, called the Condominium Ownership Act. So there are still some of these HOAs that exist that operate under that language. Okay. So that's why the 1999 is there.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. Because I may not be understanding this fully. Anything that's retroactive, my concern or intent would be, like, to this year, but the beginning of the year so that it isn't, okay. This all takes effect June 30, and there's a rush to build in protections against this. So I don't know if that date could say 01/01/2026.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: Maybe let me look into it.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Into that. Mhmm. And then we all got an email from the credit union that essentially says there are financing prohibitions from the federal level that were probably introduced with the best of intentions so that there's not too much investor ownership. It's not just they're not just paying for an investment property. And that is that it has to be fifty fifty owner occupied versus rental. I'd be willing to live with with that. I think that is a pretty good safeguard. I don't know if we want to draft that language.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Think you ought to hear from some of the people who might be affected because there may be issues that individual owners may have that we have not been made aware of. We're dealing with financial institutions and they don't necessarily only represent the interests of the owners. And so seeking out some additional testimony to make sure that we have a breadth of opinion I think would be important.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Do you think since we're getting closer to crossover, I might just suggest we have it drafted.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, we have drafts that we have to look at. Yeah.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And then have them in there.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: And then have a discussion, have them in a discussion. Or retrieve this,

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I can't.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: Yes ma'am, was gonna say on that piece alone, this kind of what sounds like a financing underwriting piece, If you don't mind sharing with me, I wanted to go because I think that may be covered by the subdivision two Right. There is a section in here that says, you know, notwithstanding this, it doesn't impact the authorizations or the restrictions in this March, and if you're saying, What is that? I pulled it up, but I went in and grabbed it on my iPad here, is that an association can adopt rules that affect the use of or behavior in units that may be used for residential purposes to restrict the leasing of residential units to the extent those rules are reasonably designed to meet underwriting requirements of institutional lenders that regularly make loans secured by first mortgage of units and common interest communities. So their concern may be covered, but let me let me take a look at what they've sent and just make sure that that is what this section Okay. Okay. Bringing us back. The second piece of this new section that would go in common interest communities is section five, which adds this new section 3.125, so you have the leasing of the units, and then the next piece is the family child care home. So similarly, the sub one here on the bottom of page nine would say that covenants, restrictions, conditions, etcetera, cannot prohibit this is lines twenty and twenty one prohibit or unreasonably restrict a unit owner from operating a family child care home, as that term is defined within the unit owner's unit, and then there's a few provisions saying they must comply with applicable federal

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: and state laws relating to

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: the regulation of family child care homes. That's kind of in there to ensure that if there are certain requirements about the operation of the home itself, that they need to comply with those. And then you have subdivision C and D about zoning and land use. Unit owner shall comply with federal state and local laws related to zoning requirements, land use, and other covenant conditions and restrictions and then the section doesn't apply to leasehold common interest communities. Those are the the three sections

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: That's a quick walk through in the market. We've sold the people. I need to. I need to. All of us are definitely.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And can I have the chair or Kira, in case people wanted to know more about the real world problem, I did forward some a a possible witness family? Yes. And I don't know if we invited them or anything,

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: but I guess it all depends on if people need to understand better why this came about.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Well, we'll be, you know, in terms of the agenda planning. For the next piece to do that, the more information we have, because these are trainings People that may not be of don't particularly know what they are, what they do, what the issues are.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah, I'm just an anxious former chair, making sure this gets scheduled for next week if we need it because I think that's our that's our week. I don't know if the oh, yep. Okay. She's now driving. Hello.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. Harper's driving. See if there's over. Morning everybody. I'm sorry to be not there. I don't I'm not sure we're clear on that curtain. So that family, so let's get that scheduled. Cam, I apologize for joining late. Did you include the perspective aspect of the HOA piece and Chris Donnelly's work with Chris Donnelly's incorporated here?

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: Yes ma'am. I did mention the kind of retroactive slash perspective piece and I mentioned the concerns that have been raised about not wanting to somehow impact current covenants that are in place related to affordable housing.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right, and Chad, I think we'll speak to more as concerns. More has a few concerns about this section as well and Kiera can maybe print out those concerns. Did you include the addition of the ADUs? I apologize, I just didn't hear if you had included that.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: No ma'am, I have not included that in any new language. I haven't completed an amendment at this point because I was just walking through the current sections as introduced, but I can briefly discuss that if you'd like me to.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Think that would be great. Better you to discuss it than me at this point.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I guess what I was looking for, Madam Chair, is are we trying to move this bill by a date certain so that we share what witnesses we want to have lined up?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Absolutely. On Monday, I mean on Tuesday, we're going to go through the bill section by section with, if you have witnesses now, please give them to Kea. I'm not sure we knew about, I mean I just wasn't clear on the witness you had for the HOAs because we've been trying to find

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: out of interest in community. That.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: You've had Well you say. Well Oh, it may have been a while ago, I get a lot of email from you. So I apologize if we

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Have a lot of witnesses.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But we I we also need just while we're on the subject of witnesses, we also need witnesses for the transit corridors. I've got Charlie Baker identified and I would really like

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: have Bob Larks. Yeah. So I have just been forwarding people for agenda items.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, I think one of the things we do here today is discuss the the issue of what witnesses do we need Exactly. To kick the sections that are not yet clear.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We're trying

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: to finish this on Tuesday. That seems to be

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: a big part of this time.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: That's right. I'm trying to do what that means really. I don't know. I'm unclear. When are you gonna be back available?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I'm available now. I just said, Tuesday, we're gonna walk through every section of the housing bill to see what people are good with, what people still need more information about, and what is good to go. So, know, for example, I think the VITA language, I think we're good to go on most of that. There are sections I think most of us are more comfortable with than others. This section is one of our more challenging sections just because it involves an area of law that we don't deal with very often.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: We need more information.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Would be great

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: to get

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: it running.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Get some of that this morning in the time that we have left. I

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: think we have plenty of time. We need to get this bill out March 13. So, we're going to we're we've already spent quite a bit of time on it. We're in good shape, I think. And the HOAs, it would be great to have a couple more witnesses. We got a long email from a common interest community, which I they sent it to all of us. That was my understanding. And we will try and find that person that spokespersons because that just came. But we have an input from Laura and Chad, which you're about to hear. We've had input from Chris Donnelly and trying to represent the Kesha's concern about ADUs and duplexes. I've had Pam begin to draft an amendment that addresses that prospectively. Damn. Okay. I was like, I don't know. Damn. Okay. Well, I thought you Kesha, thought you were wanting to make sure HOAs people could in HOAs build a

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We did a DU by right. So, yeah, I think it should be included. They shouldn't be exempt from by right.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Cameron, are you finish your walk? Yes. Good, thank you very much. I guess, Chad Simmons would be next on the witness list. And if you could, bump to the table.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: While he's doing that, I guess what we're saying is we should look through the bill and make sure any witnesses

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Absolutely.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We need are on for Tuesday.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Absolutely.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Because we're we

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: just walked through two sessions.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Oh, yeah.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: But we need to coordinate to to do that with a chair, I think, Monday, and that the question is gonna be what her availability is there.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Think she's available. It's not like I'm not available. Tuesday, we're going to have witnesses or we'll be able to build in witnesses next week and the week after.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: From the You

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: can't have everybody talking at once. Madam Chair, why don't you go ahead with your commentary?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: What I need from all of you on Tuesday after you've read through the bill and the section summary, which Kara is going to send all of you. What I need is what sections you're good with, what you're not good with, and what you would like more information on. Because we're going to have to begin to make choices on this bill. So for example, the mobile home lot rent, I've asked him to pull that because the house is doing a whole mobile home bill. So we can discuss lot rent when it comes over after crossover. So that is now out out of the bill. Stuff like that. We I guess

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm concerned I think we should do that today. I I don't I'm not gonna get to these that that's how this works this week. We have a discussion today of what we need if we're gonna try and move a bill

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: early in We next can do that consistent with time. Okay.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: But in this, we have a very full agenda also this morning and witnesses lined up. Okay. So whether or we can get that done or not, may have to do that offline this afternoon or whatever.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It's hard to look at language over the weekend. I

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: understand.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Or the witnesses are What?

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: For the

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: record, Chad Smith, and Homelessness Alliance of Vermont. I think I can be pretty brief. The committee has received a couple of memos and has already heard from the Vermont Housing Finance Agency on one of the two sections of the bill. So my hope is to just amplify those requests and concerns and then answer any questions. So the first is section two s three twenty eight, which is the housing the state housing tax credit. HHV is in strong support of this program, which provides down payment assistance for low and moderate income Vermonters moving from a rental property to homeownership. This has been a wildly successful program since it was created, putting over 2,100 Vermonters into affordable homes through this down payment system. Has

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: 0%

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: interest down payment assistance for closing costs for Vermonters, and VHFA, one of our members, is kindly asking to extend this program by five years and to expand it. I think this is an important second part of the request, is to expand it by $100,000 per fiscal year. So moving from $250,000 per year to $350,000 per year. And what this two part request will do is give a little bit more time. As as constructed, the down payment assistance is is part of the Vermont the state housing tax credit was intended to sunset this year, and it's my understanding BHFA has sold that last credit for the down payment assistance. However, because of rising interest rates over the last number of years and rising house prices, many Vermonters have not been able to sell their homes that utilize the down payment assistance, so there was not a lot of repayment and funds coming back into the program. So, BHFA is asking for another five years so that those funds can be replenished, and because of the success, and because of the demand, they're requesting an additional $100,000 per year over that period of time. So we strongly support their ask for that program. I'll stop if there's

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: any questions. We have one question, thank you. So it's advertised as a revolving loan,

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: correct?

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: It essentially kind of functions that way, so when someone receives a down payment assistance grant, I'm sorry, loan, it's a 0% loan, it's kind of

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: essentially a second

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: mortgage, they are able to utilize that to make a down payment and go towards closing costs, and they've ranged anywhere from 5,000 to $15,000 over the years. Those then are paid back when that house is sold or they refinanced. Okay, and how

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: many years has this been?

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: This has been in operation since 2014, I believe.

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: So my question is, why does it need a chunk of funding every year that's really revolving?

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: Sure. It's because it hasn't been revolving as much because of the market. The market has

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: So in those ten years, sixteen to twelve years, it hasn't paid for itself, like replenished its 250,000 per year?

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: It has been, but at a slower rate. So the rate that the HFA has, was expecting to be able to replenish was not as quick as we had hoped. I just wanted

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: to understand kind of the financial Yeah, yeah. How's it going be?

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: It's a good question. But essentially, the market just needs more time to get used to a higher interest rate environment.

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: How about

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: default rates or anything like that? Any kind of negative aspects?

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: You'd have to ask the HFA on that, but my understanding is those programs see a really good rate of involvement in people staying in their homes. The folks that are these are low and moderate income households who are receiving these benefits, and 15% are from the manufacturing production, 15% are from healthcare. So these are providers who are in need of just that little bit of assistance to afford them.

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: And the required repayment is only at the time sale by transaction.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: Or refinance, correct. Or refund. Okay.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: You're welcome. And and you said this is viewed as a very successful program. How how do you define a successful program as you look at this?

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: Sure. Moving people into, from rental to home ownership, and just that little bit of help assistance allows people to get into that and afford, and these are moderate income households.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I mean, you're talking about a quarter of $1,000,000, which, you know, given what the state seems to spend, seems like very little. It's quarter of million dollars a year over how many years?

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: The the full tax credit is for five years, and then it winds down over those five, another five years, so it's a total of a ten year argument.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: We'll try it over the years by the number of years you've had the program. Thank you. Anything else that you want to talk about regarding the sections that

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: This section, no. That was it. We just want to share our support for this program.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Chair?

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yes?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Chad, my understanding from my email with Laura, and I'm I can't see my email, but I would I would ask that Kierra print out Laura's email that I had assumed had been sent to everybody, but may have been just sent to Kara and me. Chad, my understanding is that you were would be able to speak to the concern Laura had about the HOAs.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: Correct. Yes.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Think we've heard about that. We're drafting it, that one. I

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: can see. So, section five, starting on page eight, line 14. The VHFA, as well as had been mentioned earlier, our nonprofit members have shared some concerns of this section. I think there's broad agreement that the intent is good, and and and this change is a good move forward. However, it it's been brought to our attention that there may be some unintended consequences of prohibiting these types of uses in HOAs and condominiums and communities. And specifically, the way it is worded, it would apply to any mortgage deeds or housing subsidy covenants, such as shared equity home ownership, and regulatory and program requirements. So DHFA flagged this for a couple of reasons. The first is it would impact Vermont programs, particularly DHFA programs, as well as some of our nonprofit shared equity programs, which limit the use of state dollars and state funds to ensure folks are using that for their own purposes, so for owner occupied homes. The second, in which Morris' second page of the memo goes into in more detail, is this would actually have some unintended consequences on our secondary market. So our homes financed through BHFA we need to meet regulatory requirements for Fannie and Freddie Mac to be able to be sold on the secondary market. And if these provisions and this bill were to move forward, that might disrupt their ability to provide mortgages or condominiums and homes and homeowner associations. So BHFA drafted some slight changes to Section five, which would limit the governing, to the prohibition, to only the governing documents of HOAs and condominiums, not associations, I'm sorry.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: We've not seen those changes at the point. Have we, I'm sure?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Kiara's printing them out now. I I I don't have access to my email at the moment, so I I can't remember before I emailed them to you all yesterday. Kiara is printing them out right now. And I my question, I guess, for Chad is, does Chris's because I haven't seen Chris and Pam's work. Does Chris does the work does the amendment that Chris and Pam worked on, Chris Donnelly, satisfy, or is this an additional change?

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: I, unfortunately, have not seen those draft changes yet. So, I'd be happy to take a look at it and see if the changes that Chris had worked on would align with the HFA's request. I think the HFA's request is fairly simple in that it just removes some of the language that would apply to governing documents outside of HOAs and condominium associations.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: We don't have Scott Jostka. What we do have is your email to Mara, to Mara's emails to you, Madam Chair, directly, in which If

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: I could Madam Chair, it was posted on yesterday's committee

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: page,

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: so for February 19, that memo. Right. The follow-up is if I'm talking loud right now, I think

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: my I'll try

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: to use my indoor voice. But we haven't necessarily seen it. The rest of the business by knowledge. Has anybody else seen

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We got printed the email, not the memo.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: The memo is on Instagram. Yeah.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. I'll print out the memo as well.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I don't

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I don't I don't know.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: If someone's drafting it, that's fine with me. Just feel

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: like We still have we still have to look at it, and we only have I think at this point, we have five more minutes for this subject, so we're probably not gonna get get through it with a full synoptic understanding. But now for the time that we have left, for Chad's testimony, anyone have any additional questions that we haven't asked at this point?

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: I think it was mentioned earlier that some of the credit unions have chimed in. I would just encourage folks to listen to the credit unions and some of the questions and points that you've got.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Are there anything that you know that they're gonna raise with us that you should alert us to at this point?

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: I reached out to them for the same reasons that more on DHFA have brought up in terms of the impact of the secondary market.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And they emailed, and I think, I feel like it's a drafting conversation right Nobody wants to interfere with this, I so I'll

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: think that I agree with you on that. Okay, Jeff, you very, very much.

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: Thank you. Coming in and talking

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: to us. Next item that we have on this morning's agenda is at 173, an act relating to workers' compensation and the Vermont Labor Relations Board. We have this scheduled at this point for a vote. Have our draft here with us this morning. So, he's that one.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So, he's it out for the office of Legislative Council.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: And before we have a schedule for a vote at this point, however it does, we've spent a fair amount of time looking at this, but at the same time, with the number of bills that we have, the refresher is always important. Does anyone have any concerns or comments about where we are right now? Just think passed out right now. Something along with subregulatory.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah. Just a summary of the changes and what you reviewed yesterday. Now

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: would you like to go over that that sub review very quickly, Sophie?

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Sure. Do you want me to put it up on the

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. It could definitely be helpful.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'm just getting into the.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: We did spend a lot of time, fair amount of time on this. We've got fifteen minutes scheduled to try to finish this up and see if we're ready to take this to a puzzle.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Future's feeling the end of the week as well here. Or the coming snowstorm or something.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: And a little emergency. Draft 1.1.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It is draft 2.1.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: 2.1 strike all amendment since done yesterday.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I sent it to you all last night.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: And,

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: again, on the screen is just what I've highlighted is what's changed.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I'm trying to make that a little larger if

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: you could just little page. Right.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Keeping you over the highlighted changes. Yes.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So the one you had yesterday was instances of amendment, so it didn't include section one. So this now includes section one, which had from the introduced bill. So this isn't new. This is the vocational rehabilitation changes. And, again, these changes are looking at removing the requirement for an initial vocational rehabilitation screening, the eligible injured employees, it would allow injured workers to initiate rehabilitation services if the employee fails to do it after the ninety days. And it also seeks to make sure that injured workers are fully informed of their right to access vocational rehabilitation services. So this is, again, has not changed since the bill was introduced. It's just now inserted into here in the form of a strike or amendment. And then in section two, this is the working group, and this added in that sort of the purpose of the group is to look not just at whether the current vocational rehabilitation system is meeting the needs of eligible injured workers in a timely manner, but also is it doing it in a cost effective manner. And then there was discussion yesterday about who would appoint the members of the working group, and it was decided to split it between the speaker of the house and the committee on committees. So each of them get to pick one of the representatives on the behalf of workers' compensation claimants, one of the representatives on behalf of employees and workers' compensation insurance carriers as one of the vocational rehabilitation counselors.

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: So Rich, if I could, so in the conversation yesterday, there was a mention, definitely the pro town and the speaker assigning members. I thought also the governor was was potentially going to be a member of the the school. And know that there's a number two here, but there was, I thought, conversation there were three. One was the governor. I

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: think the possibility that the because there was just a general discussion around who should appoint, and I think that there was was a possibility, but my understanding that this was where the committee landed up, so it's even when we split between the house and

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: I think you're landing. I'd like to hear this.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I think I think it was, like, a evenness question. I don't have to know that, like, it was nefarious that I remember thinking about

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: you asking

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: how the governor would have a problem not appointing somebody, just that if we let the house appoint, we usually let the senate.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: No, I get that.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. But I don't, like, I don't

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: have to strike that needs

[Chad Simmons (Housing & Homelessness Alliance of Vermont)]: to be

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: balanced. Exactly.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And then the committee would be chaired by the director of workers' compensation and the Department of Labor.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: And that is just to be recorded. Right. Okay.

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: I just wanna make sure It was a conversation. I didn't hear an end to it, but now I see there's an end.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Is that my recollection?

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I mean, it's not it's not the end. We could still debate it, but I just don't have a strong feeling.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Well, I like the

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: I like the

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: the chosen view. It's being led by someone, executive branch, And works

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: then the final change was just adding in that eighth topic, which was how could vocational rehabilitation services be provided in a way that is more cost effective for the workers' compensation system as a whole? So, again, I think there were concerns around the cost of the workers' compensation system, and so as they're looking at the vocational rehabilitation, can it also be made more cost effective than the system as a whole? So those were the changes.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I'm sure the House will take this up, but I'm just wondering if they conclude that what may should have the the screening that we had to make it more cost effective for the worker compensation system, the screening that we're taking out of type of one. But we'll leave that with

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: the house to flush out. Well, we have the good location for you to have services provided in a way that's more cost effective with the compensation, with the compensation systems.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: My concern is every time they go to, okay, we'll have services that carries with it on what I understand very short conversations, Much more expensive cost than the insurance creator that might of least 40% of the time not directed there. So, they, I just think this work might conclude that they want to reinstate what we're contemplating through being in section one But, again, I'm not gonna make this a sticking point. We're trying to move this thing along and have

[Cameron Wood (Office of Legislative Council)]: it incubated in the house.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Anybody have any comment on that or any thought of adding any additional language? No. I do. If I can go back with one second. Okay. So where does

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: it say that director of workers' compensation say that it chairs?

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No. So it has meetings at the bottom of page five. The director of workers' compensation say you shall call the first meeting. I kind of assume that that would mean that he was Okay.

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: Don't he group. That's new.

[Sophie (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. And then the support for the group would come from the Department of Labor, and then as raised yesterday, the Department of Labor would be providing the reimbursement compensation.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Very good.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But but if I may, mister Chair, that the I'm really thrilled that the Department of Labor is working has taken this on. And so the administration really has a lot of skin in the game on this, obviously. And for Dirk and Kelly to work this out is great. And I really, I think these changes are great. I'm glad we incorporated JB's changes. I think it's in good shape to sail from the Senate to the House. Thank you, Thomas. I agree. I think further conversations obviously gonna happen. They'll spend quite a bit of time on it. And Michael Marcotte is very keen on balance and on these issues. So I have confidence that this bill will be treated well in the house, but I think it's in pretty good shape now. And I think this will help our workers' comp system be more effective, particularly for these really injured workers and getting back into the workforce is certainly one of our main.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: But one issue, the issue that was raised is whether or not they should first to act as chair of the group is sufficiently clear. I guess we could take a look at page five, line 19, and add to it. The director of workers' compensation and safety shall act as chair of the working group and call the first meeting of the working group to occur on or before August 14. Does that add the kind of clarity that some of you were looking for?

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: Or not? I mean, just heard it, but I didn't read it.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I didn't find it in the taxes.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'd like to talk about how could you.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Alright.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So, I'm fine with this.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Fine. What we got as is?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Okay.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Got it.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And I can get on the last second.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yep. Madam Chair. Said no. Okay. Then we are apparently ready for a vote.

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: So we're looking at s one seventy three drop 2.1 strike all and first up center block.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yes.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Do we have to vote on the amendment first to accept the draft, the strike all amendment?

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: The So, first, strike all amendment. Senator Robert.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Draft 2.1, strike all amendment dated 02/19 at 10:47AM. And I vote yes.

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: Senator Chittenden, yeah. Senator Robinson? Yes. Senator Richardson? Yes.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Who would love to report this bill?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So I think Okay. Do we not now need to vote on the bill?

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yes, we need to vote on the bill.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: Yes. Correct. Okay. So back to the bill. S one seventy three. Again, take a 2.1 is a reference. October. Senator Brock?

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yes.

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: Senator Chittenden. Yeah. Senator Ram Hinsdale. Yeah. Senator Weeks. Yeah. Senator Clarkson?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yes.

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: So to to madam chair's point being the junior guy I'm happy to take it because there's bills coming up which I don't have much expertise on. They're much more significant. So, I'm happy to report it but I may be asking you guys.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Rachel have lots of help.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Sure. Have people to interrogate you.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Please don't. I think you're eminently qualified to report this.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We really

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: been listening to it at night of thing.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Absolutely. Absolutely. And have a, and Sophie is there to help and we're all here. Thank you very much. I think this is terrific.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Thank you. Excellent. Next item on today's agenda is at 10AM. We have, six minutes, seven minutes before 10AM. So why don't we take a seven minute break at this point? Then come back in at 10:00 to talk about s two seventy eight.