Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Unidentified staff/Zoom host]: We going today? Awesome. You have an online order. Right, Caitlin? Yes. Cool. Do you need the ATM? Alright. I'll be right back. Thank you for calling Mountain Bulk Cannabis. How can I help you today?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yep. But I just wanna make sure that we are all addressing sections in two seventy eight. This is not a general cannabis discussion. This is a discussion really focused on what we're addressing in the bill, which is THC content limitations for cannabis products, maximum THC content for single packages and cannabis products, transaction limits and equivalent measures, two year pilot programs for event permits and delivery permits, advertising by cannabis establishments, cannabis excise tax rate, municipal authority to add conditions to the insurance of a CCP license, requirement for municipalities to hold a vote concerning operation of cannabis establishments, shifting from quarterly to annual distribution of local share of cannabis license revenue, two year employee licenses, longer product registrations for stable products, repeal of integrated license provisions, extending CBDF loan and grant eligibility to tier one licenses and businesses, brands, and economic empowerment status, and appropriating funds for CBF and the LAOB. So we would really appreciate you focusing your testimony to those areas. And with that, let's introduce Everybody has five minutes, and our timers, are, you're up there. If you're a witness in this chair, your timer is right there above Sandy's head. So, sir, you wanna introduce yourself and let's just go around the table.

[Representative Michael McCarthy (Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, many of you know me, but Representative Matt Byrham represent Northwest Addison County and I chair House Government Operations and Military Affairs.

[Representative Lisa Hango (Vice Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: Representative Lisa Hango from Franklin 5 on the Canadian border I'm vice chair of House Government Operations and Military Affairs.

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: Good morning, Senator David Weeks representing Rutland County.

[Representative Kate Nugent]: Good morning, Kate Newgent representing a portion of South Burlington in the House Government Operations.

[Representative Michael Morgan]: Good morning, Representative Michael Morgan, St. Louis Kate, represent Olive Grande Dole County and Westville.

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: I represent the three, Commissioner Markham.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden]: Tom Chittenden, I represent 11 communities in the Southeast area of Chittenden Counties.

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: Beale Coffin, I represent Windsor two, Cavendish Weathersfield in Baltimore, and I'm on the House Government Operations Military Affairs.

[Representative Sandy Pinsonault]: Sandy Pinsonalt, I serve on the Government Operations and Military Affairs, and I serve Bennington Rutland one, which is Dambi, Dorset, Peru, Land Grove, and Mount Tabor.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale, the lead sponsor, S-two 78. And if anyone breaks the rule to talk about how to take a tiny bit of time to talk about how the medical side is faring. That's because I encourage them to take a little bit of time, because if we modernize the recreational side, it's really important that the medical side still functions. So I just want people to hear

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: little People bit can do whatever they want in the five minutes they have, but they have five minutes. Would also just let you know that we are also looking, if the feds reschedule in the near future, we're working on how we are best prepared to do that, what kind of regional compact we might have to be in so that we are not hammered by The United States cannabis industry. So with that, let's begin.

[Representative Michael McCarthy (Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: Yes. First up, we have Damian Fagun Fagun, policy director of Rolland Center for Law and Policy, and they're joining us by Zoom, I believe.

[Damian Fagan (Policy Director, Parabola Center)]: Yep. I'm here. I just need to be able to share my oh, there we go. One second. And

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I believe the senators at least have this testimony printed out.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden]: Yep.

[Damian Fagan (Policy Director, Parabola Center)]: Can everyone see my screen?

[Representative Michael McCarthy (Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: Yes.

[Unidentified staff/Zoom host]: Okay.

[Damian Fagan (Policy Director, Parabola Center)]: All right, is that working? All right, good. Good morning. Thank you for having me. My name is Damian Fagan. I am policy director at the Parabola Center in Massachusetts. I'm also director of the Bronx Cannabis Hub here in New York, formerly the chief equity officer for the New York State Office of Cannabis Management and also formerly a hemp farmer. So today I'm just here to talk about direct sales for craft growers and small growers, tier one producers, and the importance of that in New York's market and I believe in Vermont's market. A cannabis market already exists in Vermont. The question really is how the legal one you have take shape. The early rules determine who can remain viable long term in these markets. They determine how retailers purchase, what producers are rewarded for. In most markets, retailers simplify their supplier base over time to reduce administrative and compliance burdens. Once shelf space at these stores consolidates around a small number of producers, new market entrants struggle to gain access. That makes early access and relationship formation really decisive. The policy choice that determines whether small Vermont producers gain a lasting foothold in the market or face ongoing exclusion as legalization advances. Small growers usually start by selling wholesale because it's the only channel open to them at the beginning of a market. Wholesale prices move quickly when supply increases. Cannabis plants can be produced a lot faster than when new stores opening and faster than customers learn who any individual producer is. When buyers do not recognize producers yet, purchasing shifts to price and consistency. Stores also narrow their supplier list because managing many vendors adds paperwork and risk. So small producers end up competing on price before they have a chance to compete on quality or reputation. This challenge is not about technical expertise of the grower. It comes from their fixed high regulatory costs combined with early exposure to bulk pricing. In a small state like Vermont, each retailer accounts for a large share of demand, this shift can happen very quickly. Small producers only survive when customers can recognize them and choose them on purpose. In practice, that means a buyer has tried the product, remembers who produced it, and expects a consistent experience next time. Before customers have that baseline familiarity, products are treated as interchangeable. Buyers default to price and availability, and retailers simplify purchasing by sticking with a small set of suppliers that can reliably deliver volume. Once customers can reliably tell producers apart, cannabis stops behaving like a commodity. People begin seeking specific producers or styles of cannabis, small batch, living soil, outdoor, land race, genetics, and retailers can carry multiple sources because there is real consumer pull for different products. This is why timing matters. If intense price competition hits before customers can tell producers apart, many small producers exit before they even have a chance to build repeat demand. Price competition is survivable when customers can tell producers apart, and it is fatal when everything looks interchangeable. Direct sales give customers a way to learn and remember a specific producer without replacing retail stores. Retail stores are designed for broad access and variety. Farm sales work differently. A customer might go to a particular small producer on purpose and often returns to that same source. That repeat demand matters later. When retailers see customers asking for a known local producer, they carry that product. Small producers can gain leverage this way, entering retail with some built in demand instead of competing only on price and potency. Without that step, small producers start in wholesale where buyers compare suppliers mainly by cost and consistency. Retail, standalone retail still handles most transactions. Direct sales simply let producers develop organic local demand first so they can later compete inside retail channels. When purchases are made from a shelf using only price and labeled THC, products end up competing mainly on strength and potency. Buyers have limited information so tend to overestimate dose and over consume. When the buyer can speak with the licensed seller, including the producer at a permitted sale, the discussion often covers cultivation practices, intended use, tolerance, and expected duration. That helps the buyer choose quality and intensity more accurately. When consumers have reliable access to known producers and informed retail guidance, reliance on informal or illicit channels tends to decline as well because legal options become predictable and differentiated rather than purely price driven. Because the product has a known source, the buyer can return to the same producer and adjust future purchases. That feedback loop weakens the incentive to maximize potency and reduces trial and error consumption. The result is behavioral, consumer behavior. Availability stays the same, but purchasing becomes more predictable. Consumers rely more on regulated sources and less on unregulated alternatives because they understand what they are buying and how it will affect them. While the timing of federal form reform is uncertain, market history suggests, oh, I'm out of time. I'm almost done. Thirty seconds. While while the timing of federal form is uncertain, market history suggests scale advantages tend to concentrate, once geographic barriers fall. Under interstate commerce, much of Vermont and New York's cannabis will come from regions with lower production costs. Our markets will remain competitive only when consumers are well informed and intentionally seek local producers rather than treating them as identical. Retail purchasing behavior makes timing important. Early in a market, retailers experiment with suppliers and customers form preferences. By the time outside supplier, arrives, some producers will already have regular customers and some will not. Retailers tend to keep products that shoppers specifically request and replace those that generate no specific demand when cheaper options appear. The policy question for the legislature is whether the current market structure allows Vermont producers to build that customer demand before price competition develops. The objective here is not to suppress scale entirely, it is to prevent scale from foreclosing market access. These guardrails aim to preserve competitive diversity, maintain regional production capacity, and protect pathways for small operators before consolidation dynamics harden. Permitting limited direct sales through farm sales and regulated events, this lets consumers intentionally choose a producer and creates identifiable demand that retailers later respond to. Design early market rules so small producers are not dependent solely on bulk wholesale transactions during the early years of the market. This allows them to enter retail with customers already asking for them rather than competing only on price. And third, provide compliance assistance and basic operating support so licensed small businesses can operate continuously rather than intermittently. Together, these choices determine whether Vermont maintains a locally active production sector or becomes mainly a retail endpoint supplied by producers from out of state. Thank you very much.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you, Damian. So just a process question here. How are we gonna know about timing with people who are online?

[Nathan Davidson (VT Department of Economic Development)]: We got it.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Because we don't see that timing.

[Representative Michael McCarthy (Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: We got it. We got it. Okay. It's just it's great.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Amazing. Ah, okay. Great. Okay, good job.

[Damian Fagan (Policy Director, Parabola Center)]: I saw saw all.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you, Damien. I appreciate you were our guinea pig. So we're really grateful. Thank you. That was terrific. And now we're gonna welcome Nathan Davidson to our witness vest.

[Nathan Davidson (VT Department of Economic Development)]: Put the stand

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: as you Stand. Welcome, Nathan.

[Representative Michael McCarthy (Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: Good morning. Good morning.

[Nathan Davidson (VT Department of Economic Development)]: Nathan Davidson, Vermont Department of Economic Development, responsible for administering the Cannabis Business Development Fund as it is currently named, as we will be making a request for the name to be transitioned to something else as the use of funding may change down the line. So I don't know if people got a packet breaking down the data on how the fund's been performing thus far.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: The senate did. Okay. But we only just received it. So, nobody's headed.

[Nathan Davidson (VT Department of Economic Development)]: Okay, gotcha. Well, it's it's primarily a high level overview. So, I just want to talk about how much has been distributed thus far to who and for what purpose. So year to date, we've received 1,500,000.0 in funding for the Cannabis Business Development Fund. 1.1 of that has gone out the door. 25% has been for business support and technical assistance. So our agency contracted with Rhodes Consulting Group, a business consulting firm out of Boston, Mass, to provide marketing, design, and bookkeeping services for social equity cannabis businesses. So, 25% of the $1,100,000 has gone directly for that. I mentioned marketing design and bookkeeping because that's the primary services they offer, and they've provided thus far one hundred or fifteen hundred hours to social equity cannabis businesses in the state. That totals to around $450 0. The other money has gone out in the form of beneficiary payments to social equity cannabis businesses. The majority of these businesses are cultivators, so the majority of that funding has gone to cultivators. And that's $5,000 payments that a social equity cannabis business is eligible to receive upon receiving their initial license. And then every year after that they relicense, they're eligible for another five thousand dollars These payments are primarily going to operational expenses, equipment, and materials, and growing out growing facilities. So the majority of the funding has been going to cultivators. We've seen that social equity cannabis businesses as a whole have been surviving at a rate that's equal to, if not greater than standard or economic empowerment cannabis businesses. So in the light of, or in the spirit of this fund and what it was intended to achieve, we feel as if economic determinants are showing that the fund has been achieving what we want it to. The survival rate for these businesses is not only meeting what standard cannabis businesses are showing, but they're surviving at an even slightly higher rate. I know there's a proposal for this funding to be transitioned more towards an ag centric focus, considering there's so many cultivators in the state. I won't speak too much to it, but the current purpose of the social equity cannabis fund and as it's named cannabis business development fund is to support social equity cannabis businesses. If it's veered into the general cannabis business community and not solely focused on social equity, we think the name may be somewhat confusing. So we propose that it be changed to social equity cannabis fund or cannabis business social equity fund, something that aligns more with the spirit of the fund as intended so that there's no confusion down the line when funds are moved potentially towards more ag focus.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. We have another minute.

[Nathan Davidson (VT Department of Economic Development)]: Yeah. Generally, the funds have been distributed equitably to what we see in the in in the social equity cannabis business community. The majority of them are cultivators, as I said, so the majority of funding has been going to cultivators. There has been no misalignment in geographic distribution in where the funding's gone, and administratively, it's been relatively low burdensome for our agency to administer, and we're able to get the funding out the door quickly for folks. Considering it's somewhat of a social justice has somewhat of a social justice intent, we want to make barriers to accessing funding pretty minimal. And at this point, we're able to get funding out the door sixteen days after we receive an application.

[Commissioner Rick Hildebrand (Vermont Department of Health)]: Quickly.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: So I think one of the things we hear a lot is legal technical assistance, because there's so much ineligibility for legal technical assistance for cannabis otherwise. Do you see that as a valuable use of the funds? And as you probably are aware, there's a proposal to shift some of the funding to the Land Access and Opportunity Board, because it feels like they do a good job without having to use a lot of language that might make people feel like they don't, they aren't included. Okay, you have ten seconds to answer that.

[Nathan Davidson (VT Department of Economic Development)]: Yes, I do think legal assistance would be valuable. The contractor who we have right now, they're out of state, so we've stated they don't provide that support.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. So more to follow on that, because it totally Yes.

[Nathan Davidson (VT Department of Economic Development)]: There's a lot of supports needed.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So our challenge is our time. And so I think we're gonna hold questions. And if you have a question, write it down and we can address it afterwards directly with the person, unless we

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: have more time. Thank you, everyone.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: All

[Representative Michael McCarthy (Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: right, and thank you very much, Nathan. Up next, I got Tim Egan, Vermont Normal. How are you doing, Tim?

[Timothy Egan (Vermont NORML)]: Good morning, Madam Chair, representatives and senators. For the record, I'm Timothy Egan. I'm the chapter director for Vermont Normal. I also serve as the part time faculty cannabis business and internship coordinator at Vermont State University, where we have a 12 credit cannabis studies program. And thank you for hearing my testimony this morning. I wanna speak today specifically about the advertising and special events sections of this bill, senate two seventy eight, where I believe it'll expand opportunities cultivators to find shelf space and expand the sales of their products, which has been hurting the cultivation industry as well. Working in collaboration with retailers, it will create more economic impact for the regions and therefore requiring workforce development, which is something at the university we feel is very much a value of this industry. With retailers, product makers, and cultivators being able to advertise and increase the number of outlets that will be able to help the social, excuse me, that will be able to help the local media industry. We feel that that will help businesses find more opportunities to create their advertising, utilize advertising partners, therefore creating more economic development in other industries outside of the cannabis industry. As well, it'll allow for the state to be able to create brands that will be essential to be highlighted as this industry changes. We know that potential national changes could affect, and what we wanna be able to do is create a brand for cannabis out of the state of Vermont. So by allowing businesses to start to advertise, that's one way that they're gonna be able to get ready for potential changes. By focusing on special event licenses, we can help the state be able to access new aspects of tourism that have been ignored by especially across the river in a state where I live. When people make tourism decisions, they look for certain aspects that they want to be able to engage. So when they travel, they look at restaurants, they look at entertainment complexes, they look at bars, lounges. So being able to factor in that an industry can create special event licenses tied to cannabis can be another factor that allows some of those venues to augment and create new opportunities. For example, at pre ski parties at ski mountains would be a whole new aspect that could change and grow the ski industry that sometimes suffers from bad winters, luckily not this winter. But again, what that does by creating those events, it now creates a demand for workforce. And at the university, we are training our students to understand cultivation, culture, and business. So we're able to make sure that we are readying Vermonters to engage in this industry as it expands. As well, creating special event licenses allows for venues to focus on weddings, unique packages, younger audiences are changing their mindset. The data shows that millennials and Gen Zs are buying less alcohol and more cannabis. So being able to ready those venues for what the consumer wants is an important part of what those licenses allow. Lastly, this bill will better position Vermont as a key craft cannabis state as we create these products and we create a quality brand presence similar to how we've created craft beer, cheese and syrup. Overall to this bill, everything that's in this bill has been implemented in one degree or another in all of the other 25 legal adult states in The United States. In my experience in the New Hampshire State House as the chair of the Cannabis Caucus for three years, I learned as legislators, you have to focus on taking care of your constituents. And this cannabis bill creates economic development opportunities, workforce opportunities, and be able to create more revenue for the state and hopefully therefore reduce tax obligations on our residents. So I thank you for your testimony, hearing my testimony, and I'm glad to answer any questions at any time. The senators have and the representative around have my contact. Thank you.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you very much. I think if we get into questions, we're just I think we would too. Think we can say that. Thank you, Tim. Great to have you. I think we're gonna seed time and keep moving, we can. Jean Hamilton.

[R. Mata-Figueroa (Co-Director, Land Access and Opportunity Board)]: Back to back.

[Representative Michael McCarthy (Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: Yes, you are.

[R. Mata-Figueroa (Co-Director, Land Access and Opportunity Board)]: We will take, I hope, a full ten minutes

[Representative Michael McCarthy (Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: Okay, wonderful.

[R. Mata-Figueroa (Co-Director, Land Access and Opportunity Board)]: To make good use of your time.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you. And let me help with you yours.

[R. Mata-Figueroa (Co-Director, Land Access and Opportunity Board)]: Be very, very quick. For the record, my name is Rornena Mata Fiyeroa, co director of the Land, Access and Opportunity Board.

[Representative Lisa Hango (Vice Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: And I am Jean Hamilton, the other co director of

[R. Mata-Figueroa (Co-Director, Land Access and Opportunity Board)]: the LEOB. Anywhere we land, we ground ourselves in our touchstones, which I will just read out loud. We listen generously, and we speak our truth from our heart and mind. We make the way that we work together an example of what is possible. And we trust that we each hold a piece of the puzzle and that we need each other's pieces to understand the whole picture.

[Jean Hamilton (Co-Director, Land Access and Opportunity Board)]: Thank you all for this opportunity to testify on S-two 78. As a reminder, the Land Access and Opportunity Board was created to improve access to woodlands, farmland, and land and home ownership for Vermonters from historically marginalized or disadvantaged communities who continue to face barriers to land and home ownership. And one of our most important duties as the LEOB is to create seats at the table for the voices that are missing, for the voices that are being left out of policymaking. And in that spirit, we wanted to cede some of our time and offer it to invite Jessylyn Dolan from Green Mountain Patients Alliance to share our time and speak up on behalf of cannabis patients, caregivers, and cannabis healthcare workers. I believe Jessylyn is on the Zoom, and we'd love to give Jessylyn a little bit of our time, if that's okay.

[Jessilyn Dolan (Green Mountain Patients Alliance; RN)]: Yes, thank you so much. Can you all hear me okay? Yes. Okay, I'm Jesse Lynn Dolan. I'm a registered nurse, former president of the American Nurses Association, also a former director of the American Cannabis Nurses Association. I'm a former two tier cultivator, former cannabis educator for the CCB. I'm a medical patient. I've had over 40 surgeries myself.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I'm a

[Jessilyn Dolan (Green Mountain Patients Alliance; RN)]: mother and cultivating caregiver for my son, who's a medical cannabis patient choosing opioids over, I'm sorry, choosing cannabis over opioids after a broken neck. Patients, caregivers, and medical professionals once had a voice in Vermont. The Symptom Relief Oversight Committee was unfortunately discontinued when the CCB took over the medical program. That's my number one request for you is to reestablish the Symptom Relief Oversight Committee who can work with the CCB, hopefully to make the many needed changes, but also establish other qualifying conditions and verify medical cards based on diagnoses. We work closely with the LAOB and the Vermont Cannabis Equity Coalition. We support their policy recommendations, especially using the excise tax to support marginalized populations, maybe even patients adding 1% or another financial way to support cannabis patients. We push first to allow on-site consumption so that patients have a legal place to consume rather than first having event permits. So please, we need to see patients over profit. We ask to rescind the CCB's advertising policy preventing medical professionals from working with adult use and medical use endorsements. Please put education before profits. We have a few more asks. Patients unfortunately rarely get time to speak, so thank you to the LAOB for offering this time, and I ask you to please invite us again to speak so we can continue this conversation and again, put patience over profits. Thank you for our time.

[Sarah Farnsworth (Owner/Operator, Full Circle Farm; Tier 3 Outdoor Cultivator)]: Thank you, Jessy Lynn. Thank you.

[Jean Hamilton (Co-Director, Land Access and Opportunity Board)]: So the LAOB was created to help the state of Vermont understand and remove the barriers that disadvantaged communities face in achieving land and homeownership. Our communities face barriers that are the compounding result of generations of unjust and discriminatory laws and practices, including the war on drugs. Discriminatory policing of cannabis has undermined our communities' economic stability. Economic instability causes housing instability with damaging impacts for all of us. As the Vermont Department of Health found in its 2024 state health assessment, quote, The lack of affordable, safe, and accessible housing leads to housing insecurity, mental health deterioration, and financial strain. Key housing issues include substandard housing environments due to neglected maintenance, the high cost of housing, a limited number of contractors available to make repairs, landlords raising rents while not maintaining properties, and economic support policies and initiatives for affordable housing that are not addressing the acute needs. Housing discrimination further limits access for marginalized communities. And as a reflection of all of this, since its creation, the CCB has recognized the disproportionate impact of the historically government led policies that fueled the economic oppression of black and brown people for generations and continues to disadvantage these individuals, as well as indigenous people, people of color and other historically marginalized groups.

[R. Mata-Figueroa (Co-Director, Land Access and Opportunity Board)]: The board, this is the CCB, aspires to build an equitable and accessible program in order to mitigate the past harm inflicted by the prohibition of cannabis. However, in its 2024 Act 166 report, the CCB found that, quote, given the inherent barriers to accessing the industry and the ongoing challenges to achieving sustainable success, The CCB and the Cannabis Advisory Committee concluded that the social equity program alone is inadequate to mitigate the harm caused by historic drug policies and has called for the creation of a community reinvestment fund in prior legislative reports and recommended dedicating 25% of the cannabis excise tax to the Land, Access and Opportunity Board for community reinvestment. S two seventy eight contains a 5,600,000.0 appropriation for the Land, Access and Opportunity Board. The LAOB has done the groundwork and is able to deploy these funds in FY '27 into programs that have been vetted and developed by our communities in collaboration with agencies and service providers. This appropriation will fund the homes for all developer training program to provide training and early stage financing to beginning in small scale housing developers, community resilience awards to support community led emergency preparedness hubs, community governance, capacity building and case studies to make Vermont land access and housing programs more just and equitable, secure housing coaches to provide and train culturally responsive housing navigation in the state, and support an existing gap in the system, a lack of cross system coordination and support for case managers, our board, staff, and administrative costs. We support the CCB Act 56 report finding that from a public health and prevention lens, directing cannabis excise tax revenues to provide grants and technical assistance for affordable housing, land access and community led development would help address upstream determinants of health, stabilizing families, reducing stress and insecurity, and creating safer and more resilient neighborhoods.

[Jean Hamilton (Co-Director, Land Access and Opportunity Board)]: So thank you for this opportunity. We have submitted, along with this written testimony, details about our FY 'twenty seven program, so you have that. And we really look forward to connecting with each of you to talk more about how the LAOB can support your So, thank you. Thank you

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: so much.

[Jessilyn Dolan (Green Mountain Patients Alliance; RN)]: And can I just clarify that I do support on-site consumption for a vet and permitting after we have on-site consumption available for patients? So I just wanted to make sure I mentioned that correctly. I apologize. Thank you.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Which is a bill in judiciary.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That's not in our committee,

[James Chimerki (Director of Planning, Southwestern Vermont Medical Center)]: that bill.

[Representative Lisa Hango (Vice Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: Thank you. Right.

[Representative Michael McCarthy (Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: Mister Slater here. Thank you, sir.

[Dave Silberman (Attorney; Flora Cannabis; Vermont Cannabis Action Fund)]: Thank you for allowing me to testify today. My name is Dave Silberman. I'm an attorney. I specialize in cannabis law. I'm cofounder of Flora Cannabis, a retailer in Downtown Middlebury, and I'm the director of the Vermont Cannabis Action Fund or VCAP. VCAP is a coalition of over 50 retailers, manufacturers, and cultivators focused on solving the structural issues

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: that

[Dave Silberman (Attorney; Flora Cannabis; Vermont Cannabis Action Fund)]: are holding Vermont's cannabis industry back from reaching its full potential. We focus on actionable concrete solutions that support the market as a whole instead of pitting one license type against another. I wanna give you a Ground Floor view of Vermont's cannabis market as it stands today. To be plain, the Vermont cannabis market is in trouble, and it needs urgent help. We suffer from both oversupply in the cultivation sector and oversaturation in the retail sector. With one store for every roughly every 5,500 residents of this state, we rank in the top five most oversaturated legal states in the country, and we have almost three times as many stores per capita as Massachusetts. We have 40% more cannabis stores than we have eight zero two stores. As a result, we are seeing price collapses in both the wholesale and retail markets, and those collapses are accelerating. Total sales per store are down by roughly 25% over the last eighteen months, with many longer standing retailers down 35% or more over that time period as this tiny market of ours, we are very, very small, is being split into evermore and ever smaller pieces. Everyone is feeling the pinch, and business failures are rising. Meanwhile, our costs, including regulatory compliance costs, have only gone up. With rising costs and falling revenues, there are very few cannabis businesses in Vermont that have an optimistic view of 2026. It is bad out there. It's getting worse, and we need your help or people will lose their jobs, people will lose their businesses, and tax revenues will suffer. By and large, Vermont's cannabis businesses, licensed cannabis businesses, are are operated by good people doing good things for and in their communities. We've collectively created over a thousand new jobs, attracting and retaining a younger work workforce, which I keep hearing is a priority across the political spectrum. Our hundreds of small locally owned businesses have raised tens of millions of dollars in tax revenues that did not exist before and that nobody's complaining about paying. And we've done it the right way responsibly, responsive to our local communities, and without the parade of horribles that were so loudly predicted from 2015 to 2020. I was here. Many of you were here as this market was being debated. Despite this, it still feels like the state is treating us like the proverbial unwanted stepchild, controlling us, stifling innovation, suppressing our efforts to build customer loyalty, and and foster brand growth instead of celebrating our success and supporting our growth. So four years in, I believe we have proven our worth and value to our communities, and we've earned the right to be treated like every other business in this state. What we need is responsible market growth. More than a third of total cannabis demand in Vermont today is being lost to the unlicensed market, whether that's out of state sellers, whether it's online sellers of hemp derived edibles that get shipped without ID checks to any address in the state, or whether it's the traditional illicit market. Supporting the regulated market supports public health, supports public safety, supports consumer health and safety, and that is what we should all want together. I'll focus on just a few very, very short things. Vermont is one of three states that limit edibles to five milligrams per serving. This drives consumers to the unlicensed market every day. I hear it in the store. My colleagues in the back hear it in their stores. We deprive the state of tax revenues. We deprive consumers of the safety benefits of the regulated market when they go to these alternative sources for something that almost every other state allows. And while the market is oversaturated statewide, the retail market, the municipal opt in requirement is the primary driver of supersaturation in places like Rutland, Burlington, Morrisville, many other communities have way too many stores. It's fewer a third of municipalities have even bothered to hold a vote and let their people decide, Requiring all municipalities to hold this vote will allow existing retailers to spread out more naturally. That supports a healthy marketplace. It supports healthy prices that allows producers to thrive as well. And we would also if people are uncomfortable with requiring towns to vote, we would support switching to an opt out regime as well. I am out of time. I have many more comments for you. Are in the written comments that you have.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: You have and it'd be kind of also to submit your general testimony, which you we don't have. That would be great. Of course. Thank you, David.

[Dave Silberman (Attorney; Flora Cannabis; Vermont Cannabis Action Fund)]: Thank you very much, Cheryl.

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: Yeah. Thank you, David.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And now we have Miriam. Miriam, you are online. Hello. I am here. Hi. Good to have you all the way from Hartford.

[Miriam (Mary) Montgomery (Owner, The Tea House Dispensary, White River Junction)]: Yes. Am I ready to start?

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: Go for it.

[Miriam (Mary) Montgomery (Owner, The Tea House Dispensary, White River Junction)]: All right. Well, thank you for having me here today. My name is Mary Montgomery. I'm the owner of the Tea House Dispensary in White River Junction, Vermont. We currently have 16 employees. I wanted to express my support for changing single packages from one hundred milligrams to two hundred milligrams. I think doing so does not remove any existing safety controls. They're still tested. They still have the same labels. They need to be sold through our point of sales. What it does do is discourage cross border purchasing and discourages illicit market made edibles and online purchases. Though I'm not necessarily a border state to other legal states, we currently and have since the day we opened lose customers to Massachusetts and Maine, where in both states they can get edibles that a larger quantity have more THC and are cheaper. This isn't an issue that just happens in Brattleboro or other retailers that are on the borders. This impacts every retailer regardless of location. I would also say from an environmental standpoint, less two hundred milligram packages would equal less packaging. I'm also in support of changing the purchase limit to two ounces per day for many of the same reasons. Making this change doesn't create a new demand. What it does is it keeps up with the existing demand. People purchase two ounces a day now. They do this by visiting multiple dispensaries, by buying online, and by crossing state lines. I'm also in support of reducing the cannabis excise from 14% to 10%. This is a high tax 20 to 21% in total tax, 21% for towns with the local option, the local tax option. This is a burden for many customers and it does impact sales for again the reasons I already expressed. They go to other states, they go online, they go to the illicit market. I'm also in support of two year employee cards and I'm also in support of longer product registrations. I was disappointed to see that consumption lounges were removed from the bill. I just wanted to speak on that very, very briefly. Our current framework lacks provisions for legal social consumption places, and this creates a barrier to access for many Vermonters, both residents and visitors. As a woman of color, I cannot tell you the amount of times I have had other people of color or from other minority groups ask me if they are safe to smoke here. The difference between me and many of my customers is that I am a homeowner and I can smoke safely on my own property. This creates a socioeconomic and racial disparity as to who owns homes and who doesn't. Many renters, people that live in subsidized housing, they do not have a legal place to smoke. They buy a product legally. There is nowhere legally to smoke this. This also impacts our tourists for the same reasons. Hotels, Airbnbs, you typically cannot consume cannabis. So we've created a system where people can legally purchase something, but they cannot legally use it. And that's what I have for you today.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you, Miriam. That was terrific.

[Representative Michael McCarthy (Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: And next we have Farnsworth from Full Circle Farm. Hello, Scar.

[Sarah Farnsworth (Owner/Operator, Full Circle Farm; Tier 3 Outdoor Cultivator)]: And members of the Joint Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Sarah Farnsworth, and I'm a tier three outdoor cultivator, owner operator of Full Circle Farm. I'm also serving in my second term on the cultivator working group for the Vermont Growers Association. I'm co founder of the Gangier Guild, which is a national professional associate association of cannabis sommeliers. And I'm currently engaged in the development of a Vermont based collaborative business structure that cannot fully proceed without clear statutory authorization for shared infrastructure, nonvoting investment, and coordinated compliance. Today, I want to focus specifically on structural provisions that will help S two seventy eight succeed long term. I wanna say that I support the Vermont Cannabis Equity Coalition's 2026 priorities, including directing excise tax revenue towards equity funding and land access, expanding direct markets for smaller cultivators and manufacturers, ensuring agricultural protections, completing expungements for cannabis related offenses, allowing public consumption consistent with tobacco rules, increasing homegrown allowances, and consolidating oversight under the Cannabis Control Board. I also support 100% of the Land Access Opportunity Board testimony today and all of their priorities. I disagree a bit with some of mister Silberman's assessments regarding the lack of consumers in the state. There's definitely an opportunity to attract the illicit market here. That market is alive and well. So S two seventy eight makes some important changes. My goal is to ensure that the bill has governance tools necessary to support a stable and durable market over time. First, I encourage inclusion of clear ownership transparency provisions. Ownership transfers or material changes in control should be disclosed and subject to board review. This does not restrict investment. It ensures viability and predictability in how the market evolves. Second, I recommend directing the Cannabis Control Board to conduct and publish an annual market stability review. That review should assess canopy levels, wholesale pricing trends, license transfers, and indicators of concentration. Legislators and regulate regulators should have consistent data before reacting to volatility. Third, S two seventy eight should explicitly authorize nonvoting investment structures. Many small producers need capital access, and allowing preferred shares or similar instruments with disclosure enables investment without automatically shifting control. That supports responsible growth. Fourth, I ask for clear statutory authorization around cooperative formation and shared services. Vermont has a long history of cooperative agricultural models. If cooperative marketing or shared infrastructure to function is shared infrastructure is to function in cannabis, the statute would make that pathway unambiguous and aligned with existing license categories. Clarity prevents regulatory gray areas. And lastly, retail cannabis should operate under trade practice standards consistent with Vermont's alcohol regulatory framework. This would ensure competition protections consistent with Vermont alcohol trade practices, laws, and federal antitrust standards. These are not restrictive measures. They are structural guardrails. They provide transparency, administrative clarity, and long term predictability for regulators, businesses, and investors alike. S two seventy eight is an opportunity not just to address current pressures, but to build a framework that matures well over time. If Vermont intends to preserve local ownership, craft quality, and strong oversight in a changing federal landscape, we must ensure that our statutory framework supports thoughtful collaboration before external market forces shape the outcome for us. I also want to use this time to say that I support events. I see this as a tourism state. I work in weddings, which are very seasonal. I can definitely see an opportunity for small producers and mid sized producers to be able to have another revenue stream and also to build the Vermont name. Appalachian of origin is super important. Let's make this a province for craft cannabis in the federal landscape and put us in a position to succeed.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you, Sarah. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you all for taking time today. Ethan and Chris, I'm gonna have you come up together if you're here. Are you here? Great. Because you're dividing Jeffrey's time, so you need to get two and a half minutes, which is great if you can manage that. Ethan Kramer and Chris Lilly, welcome. Thank you.

[Ethan Kramer (Tilly Hills; Tier 1 Outdoor Cultivator)]: Thank you.

[Christina Lilly (Owner, Green Mountain Sativa; Small Cultivator)]: That's a good thing.

[Ethan Kramer (Tilly Hills; Tier 1 Outdoor Cultivator)]: I'm gonna read off my phone. Sort of tacky. Please excuse me.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That's okay. Alright. So you're dividing Jeffrey's time of five minutes, you reach up two and a half minutes.

[Ethan Kramer (Tilly Hills; Tier 1 Outdoor Cultivator)]: I'm gonna be pretty quick.

[Representative Michael McCarthy (Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: Hello. Thank you.

[Ethan Kramer (Tilly Hills; Tier 1 Outdoor Cultivator)]: My name is Ethan Kramer. My wife, Kristen, and I have a tier one outdoor license. Our farm is called Tilly Hills, and we're in Fairfield. Thank you for the opportunity to give this testimony. I'm sharing a bit about what it's like to be a small producer, where we see things heading. It's a little intimidating for me to be here. I will be brief, and I'll try not to be too nervous.

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: Don't be nervous. Just people.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Just that. When

[Ethan Kramer (Tilly Hills; Tier 1 Outdoor Cultivator)]: we first got our license in 2022, we knew that it was a risky endeavor. The plan was to grow a federally illegal crop in a brand new adult use market to scale up from home growing to growing a 125 plants without the benefit of having had a hemp license with no tractor and basically no farm infrastructure and next to no capital. When I wrote these words down last night, it seemed funny, but it sounds like a terrible idea. Learning curve has been steep to say the least, but here we are getting ready to start our fifth growing season. Unfortunately, this market is in grave danger. A market structure that places retailers at the center means that retailers hold all the cards and are the only establishments attracting potential customers, leaving a majority of customers and therefore potential tax revenue on the table. Whitney economics assesses that in twenty twenty four states with adult use retail centered markets such as Vermont only tap approximately 30% of potential customers. Not only are retailers deciding which farms to work with, they're setting the price. Larger operations can offer their products at a lower price, and smaller producers aren't able to compete. We see it time and again in other states, consolidation, loss of diversity, lower quality products, and an increasingly irrelevant market. This isn't quote, unquote, natural market forces or the way the cookie crumbles or letting the chips fall where they may. This is an inequitable market structure that disadvantages producers and has very little regard for consumers. What it seems like to us is that all these years after legalization and all these decades after prohibition, we are still dealing with the stigma of cannabis as an illegal drug. We pay our taxes. We do our compliance. We've been fingerprinted and background checked, and we're still not trusted to interact with our customers or consumers. S two seventy eight includes provisions for a supplemental delivery permit and an on premises direct sales permit, both of which would transform this market, turning it into something that ordinary Vermonters who buy their garlic, their meat, and their syrup from their neighbors will recognize immediately. It's an opportunity for Vermont to be bold, to lead, and to have the world class cannabis market that we deserve. Thank you for your time and consideration.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Christina Lilly (Owner, Green Mountain Sativa; Small Cultivator)]: Hi. My name is Christina Lilly. I'm, a small cultivator in Stockbridge, Vermont. I own Green Mountain Sativa. Gonna skip some of this because Ethan touched on it. But I do wanna talk about the only having a wholesale market. The wholesale cannabis prices in Vermont have dropped sharply since the market opened. Well, exact numbers vary by region, and retailer and small cultivators have seen wholesale flower prices fall by 30 to 50% since the first year in the adult use sales. Inconsistent purchasing patterns have from retailers that are fully integrated and trading shelf space is very difficult for us to deal with. As a small cultivator, a 40% drop is not an inconvenience. It's the difference between staying operational and shutting down. Unlike larger operators, MyFarm cannot offset falling prices with volume, vertical integration or diversified product lines. Small cultivators carry the same regulatory compliance as our larger operators. Licensing fees, mandatory testing costs, track and trace, security requirements. I want to say direct to consumer sales and delivery, as outlined in S. Two seventy eight and supported by BCEC, are not special privileges. They are standard agricultural product practices that already exist for small vegetable farms, maple producers, breweries, cideries, and CSAs and farm stands. Allowing small cultivators to sell directly to consumers would provide stable revenue, not independent on wholesale volatility. Allow cultivators to retain a sustainable margin, reduce distribution delays, strengthen relationships with consumers who want to support local sun grown cannabis, increase transparency and traceability, support rural access, especially for consumers far from retail stores. Delivery is especially important in a rural state like Vermont, where many residents live thirty to sixty minutes. Quickly, I'm gonna say I support two seventy eight because it provides realistic workable tools that align with the needs of small cultivators and the directors of the Vermont Cannabis Equity Coalition. Direct to consumer sales and delivery are essential for the survival of small farms, and they bring Vermont's cannabis industry into alignment with the other small agricultural producers already ready to operate. Thank you for your time and for your commitment to understanding the economic and operational realities faced by small cultivators. I appreciate the opportunity to share my perspective.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you, Christine.

[Christina Lilly (Owner, Green Mountain Sativa; Small Cultivator)]: All set. Thank you. You. Great, thank you.

[Representative Michael McCarthy (Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: Thank you so much. And next we have Sam Belavance. How you doing, Sam?

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: How are you? Wonderful, thank you.

[Sam Belavance (Farmer, South Hero; Cannabis Retailers Association)]: Hi everyone, I'm Sam Belavantz. I am a farmer in South Hero, Vermont. I started growing cannabis in 2022 in a hayfield, my family's dairy farm. And a couple years later, we're employing roughly 20 people at our location. And, you know, a lot of other people have said, you know, if you want to look for rural economic development, look no further than the Vermont cannabis industry. Right now, we're employing over 1,000 people. We have hundreds of small independent businesses, and we've generated over $75,000,000 in tax revenue for the state. And I think that's a really impressive track record. And somebody grew up hearing from dairy farmers, hearing from people operating sugar bushes. We've always talked, how do we have value added agriculture? How do we create that as a cornerstone of Vermont ag? And the cannabis industry is doing that right now. It's something I'm very proud of. However, my concern is that we're falling behind. Now when cannabis was originally legalized in Vermont, New York did not have a robust market. That's not the situation on the ground now. And the reason I wanted to drive here is to tell you what we're seeing in Grand Isle County because of New York's market. So I brought with me, and I'll email this to you, this is an ad in seven days from Exotica dispensary in Hogginberg, New York. It is a raffle to win a Dodge Challenger if you purchase enough cannabis from their store. Vermont newspapers are running these ads right now, And I don't know if our cannabis control board, if they have the legal authority to even stop that. So we're running into this issue where, as a Vermont small business, I can't communicate with my customers, but a New York or a Massachusetts corporation can. And we're running to the into that again and again and again. Furthermore, not only are they running ads that we can't run because we have an antiquated advertising statute, New York has a purchase limit of three ounces of cannabis per transaction. We have a purchase limit of one ounce. So what that means is that Vermonters, instead of, you know, oh, this one ounce limit, they're gonna purchase less cannabis. No. What they're gonna do is they're gonna drive to New York. And now New York businesses are gonna get that money, and the state of New York is getting all that tax work. That's what we're seeing on the ground in Grand Isle, in Franklin, Addison, Chittenden County, everyone along the border is seeing this. So now is the time. We have to update these statutes if we wanna be competitive with our state neighbors. Furthermore, with federal legalization imminent, and for folks who don't know this, there was an executive order in December falling on federal administration to look at descheduling cannabis. Federal legalization is going to be coming. So the question for you all to decide, if Vermonters are going to be seeing a cannabis advertisement, do they want to be seeing it from a Vermont farmer and a Vermont small business owner? Or do they want to be seeing it from an out of state corporation? They're going to be seeing an advertisement for one of those groups. So we need to decide what we want to do. Do we want to be a state of consumption, or do we wanna be a state of production, where we establish ourselves as a leader in this space, exporting a high value agricultural product? We've seen it work for craft beer. We've seen it work in other industries. There's no reason this couldn't also work in. So lastly, I've talked on the purchase limits. I've talked about, advertising, which are both in this bill. On events, events are a really important concept here, because they give both retailers and growers the opportunity to get in front of consumers where consumers are. We have a tourist economy here in Vermont. People come here for concerts, they come here for weddings. Allowing us to interact with those consumers is very important. It's why every race you go to, every five k, every event, it always has a brewery sponsoring it. Why do they do that? Because they know it's a way to get their brand in front of consumers. If you allow us to do that as well, we're gonna build the competencies. Think about it. Advertising events, these are muscles. We need to start training because when federal legalization comes, we won't be ready if we don't have the businesses that are strong enough to handle it. So I wholeheartedly support this bill. I think this is a massive step forward if we wanna modernize this industry. And if we wanna be competitive, and if we wanna go from a thousand jobs to 2,000 jobs, if we wanna go from you know, you look at all these businesses here, you never know what they're gonna turn into. Someone in this room could be the next Jasper Hill Farm. It could be the next Lawson's brewery. You don't know. So let's try it. Let's support these small businesses. I'll yield the rest of my time, but, folks from the Cannabis Retailers Association will be in the building for the rest of the day. So please ask us any questions, if you have any.

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: Thank you.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And please submit your testimony to Kiara. That would be great. Perfect, next on deck, we have Josh McDuff. Josh, I think you're online. There

[Unidentified staff/Zoom host]: you are.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Josh, it's yours. I'm sorry, Josh.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden]: Alright. Thank you. Can you can you all hear me?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We can hear you, but we can't see you.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden]: I started my video here.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It's someone else who's impersonating you.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden]: There we go.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank Welcome.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden]: All right. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me, everyone. I wanted to start my testimony by just giving everybody a little bit of an introduction to myself and to my business partner and life partner, Anna McDuff. First of all, I represent Mountain Girl Cannabis. We're located in Rutland City. We are Vermont's first licensed cannabis dispensary and have been operating since day one of legal market. I think by introducing myself and Anhe, it really is an opportunity to humanize the folks who operate in this space where there are some legal uncertainties, and there are push backs at all levels to what we do. But the reality is we're most average people who work tirelessly to represent and support their families and also have a positive impact on the communities that they live and work in. I started in the Slate Quarries while I was serving my four years of probation for felony distribution of cannabis. But most recently, I have ten years of banking and insurance experience, so I'm no stranger to compliance laws, rules, and regulations. My wife, Anna, is a certified project manager with over ten years in the insurance and waste management fields. We have no investors. We're truly a mom and pop company. I save my commission checks for selling insurance and on and on tap into our 401Ks to bet on ourselves and our futures. I'm the son of a quarry worker who spent years working endlessly for minimal income. I owe a debt of gratitude to the state of Vermont and the CCB for creating a fair and equitable market, where people like Anna and I and my dad, who works for us full time, have the opportunity to compete against larger corporate interests. I think that this is a good market and a good state to operate in for people like myself. So I'm not here to throw mud at the state. I'm not here to echo all the other horror stories that other cannabis operators have shared or maybe have feelings about. I'm actually looking at this as a positive, but like all industries, all positives, all evolving markets, they need to change. I'm here in support of S-two 78. I think it misses the mark on many topics, but like anything, this is a work in progress, I think it's positive that it's being brought to the table. I've heard Dave Silberman talk about saturation, and he mentioned Rutland, and Rutland is a hotbed for saturation for retail establishments, and I think for me, I'm seeing the pinch of that, of course, but I'm evolving like any other proprietor would hopefully do to survive. But we do need the state's help, not financially, I'm not asking for any handouts, I'm not asking for charity. I think what we need to see is some evolution in the marketplace that allows us to be more competitive with the border states like New York who are now online and up and operational. So when it comes to S-two 78, I think for me, things that I'm seeing as necessity are the THC purchase limits. I think we need the ability to offer up to two ounces, especially with the calculations as they exist for things like vape cartridges or things like edibles, the milligram ratios and things of that nature. I do think we need to see higher THC content for single packages, as well as potentially a higher concentration per serving of those edibles, cannabis edibles. I'm also in support of longer product registration for shelf stable products. We're a company that has, I don't know, maybe 30 or 40 SKUs, and as a result, we're constantly renewing things on top of renewing registrations and so on. I think delivery permits are a work in progress the way that the bill reads, but I do think if issued in the right hands with people who have the right and adequate training for compliance and so on, I think there's something to be had there, as well as tapping into a future market. We have many people who just have a hard time getting around the city, maybe don't have a medical card or don't choose to want one, that we would be able to serve maybe an underserved area. Thank you for your time.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Oh, thank you so much, Josh.

[Representative Michael McCarthy (Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: Alright. Next, joining us on Zoom, we have Glenn Kooleins from Anthony, convention specialist from Anthony Union Middle and High School.

[Glauke Koymans (Prevention Coordinator, Southwest VT Supervisory Union)]: Yes. Hello. Can you all hear me?

[Senator David Weeks (Clerk)]: Yes.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We can hear you. Can we see you? Ah, there

[Glauke Koymans (Prevention Coordinator, Southwest VT Supervisory Union)]: you are. Okay, perfect. Hi. Thank you for hearing my testimony. My name is Glauke Koymans. I work as prevention coordinator at the Middle and High school of the Southwest Vermont Supervisory Union in Bennington. I have a professional background in mental health and health education and health promotion. Part of my role is teaching substance misuse prevention lessons to students, co facilitating peer prevention groups, and providing substance use related early intervention services, etcetera. I have concerns about proposals to increase the potency limits and the purchase limits from one ounce to two ounces as proposed in bill two seventy eight. These proposals to lower the restrictions will promote normalization of the use of cannabis in Vermont. This increases the risk around cannabis use due to more of it in the community, including even higher THC potency products. Meanwhile, while 21 plus use is legal in Vermont, the risks that cannabis use poses on youth are significant and not enough not enough understood. My concerns relate to cannabis risks I encounter in my role. I will provide a written testimony and will include links to related documents at the end of this meeting. First, underage cannabis use. Even though the legal age to use cannabis is 21, in my work, I hear a significant amount of youth use well below this age. Data from the 2023 youth risk behavior survey shows that thirty five percent of Vermont high school students and eight percent of Vermont middle school students have ever tried using cannabis products. Meanwhile, twenty two percent of high school students currently use cannabis, which is measured by past thirty day use. This number is four percent for Vermont middle school students. The YRBS shows also in more detail at what age one tried cannabis for the first time. Six percent of Vermont high school students say they first tried cannabis before the age of 13 years old, while two percent of Vermont middle school students say they first tried it before the age of 11 years old. The above data is illustrated by the fact that I personally have heard students say they use cannabis before sixth grade, for example, edibles. Meanwhile, elementary school staff has reached out to me for guidance and resources in the aftermath of youth being under the influence of cannabis at school. Note, in our district, most of the numbers that I mentioned are even higher. I've heard students say they were at the ER due to symptoms related to cannabis use. They described feelings as not able to be respond to others, blackout, feeling very scared, paranoid, feeling very sick, out of the body experience, thinking they were going to die, etcetera. I have heard about using a dab pen, dabbing, a method of use, which uses highly concentrated THC wax, 60 up to 90%. I also heard of using a dab pen to hit a blinker. I had to research this myself. It means inhaling, from a dab pen until the safety timer shuts off, delivering a fast high potency hit. It's promoted through so called TikTok challenges. In my written testimony, I will share a Stanford Medicine REACH lab infographic illustrating the risks of dabbing, which like many THC and high potency THC products includes increased risk of addiction, anxiety, depression, schizophrenia, lung and heart disease. It is also known to impact memory and can cause learning problems. Second, lack of awareness among adults regarding risks associated with cannabis. Based on what I hear from students regarding cannabis use in general, I conclude that cannabis is commonly used in households, which is supported by published research. However, there seems to be a lack of awareness among adults regarding the concerns around it. A, driving under the influence of cannabis. The above is illustrated by the following data regarding students having been in a car with a driver under the influence of cannabis, which poses a which poses serious risks. Twenty two percent of Vermont high school students say they have been ridden in a car with a driver who was under the influence of cannabis. This number is thirteen percent for middle school students. Again, the numbers for our districts are higher. B, accidental ingestion of cannabis. Data shows that accidental ingestion of cannabis products by minors, especially edibles, which often look like regular gummies, brownies, or cookies, has increased. Based on the following data, it seems that adults do not necessarily take the proper steps to keep cannabis, which includes high potency THC products away from youth. Cannabis related poison control center calls from Vermonters between zero and 19 years old increased from two calls in 2012 to 26 in 2021. This was before cannabis was available in the retail setting in Vermont. During my substance misuse prevention lessons at the middle school, students shared that they do know situations regarding accidental ingestion of cannabis. More recent data from American poison centers illustrate the increase in pediatric edibles cannabis poisoning cases in the past year from six hundred sixty six to nine hundred and twenty nine nationwide.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank thank you so much. We have to cut you off there because you're overtime. If you'd be kind enough to make sure you get your testimony to us electronically, that would be great to care.

[Glauke Koymans (Prevention Coordinator, Southwest VT Supervisory Union)]: I bet. Thank you.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you so much. Next, Janet Potter, a student assistance provider at Hartford. Are you here or online?

[Jeanette Sharkey Potter (Student Assistance Provider, Hartford School District)]: I'm online.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Hi. Welcome.

[Jeanette Sharkey Potter (Student Assistance Provider, Hartford School District)]: So I will probably sound like the micro machine man from the '80s ads because I have a lot to say.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right, have you

[Sarah Farnsworth (Owner/Operator, Full Circle Farm; Tier 3 Outdoor Cultivator)]: Yeah, know. Go for it.

[Jeanette Sharkey Potter (Student Assistance Provider, Hartford School District)]: Hello, my name is Jeanette Sharkey Potter. I'm a sixth generation Windsor County, Vermonter. I'm an MLADAC in New Hampshire, a Laidac in Vermont. I've spent the last twenty years working in Vermont, New Hampshire as a substance use treatment provider, most recently as a student assistance provider, SAP, at the Hartford School District. I've also served on the Vermont Substance Misuse Prevention Council. I'm disappointed the senators on this committee from Windsor County did not reach out to me to testify, despite me being in the State House meeting with our reps last week at the ODX Youth Rally. So first point, please do not reduce the 14% to 10% cannabis excise tax. 30% goes to prevention. This is critical. Prevention does not have enough money. Advertising, please limit some of the things I hear from kids about cannabis despite strong prevention messaging through implementation of the evidence based Stanford Cannabis Prevention Toolkit. It's medicine, it's safe, it's from a dispensary, It cures cancer. It's natural. I also hear, my parents did it. They are fine. According to the National Institutes of Health, THC levels are not the same. We are not talking about the same product. In the 60s and 70s, it was about 2% THC. 1995, it was about 4%. 2014, it was about 12%. This law repeals the 30% for flour and 70% for carts and concentrate. This doesn't take into account the reductions, the drastic reductions in CBD, which is the natural kind of antidote, if you will, to THC. This increase in potency poses a higher risk of cannabis use, particularly among adolescents. That's not me talking, that's the National Institutes of Health. I also want to talk about the amounts that are being allowed and talk about what that really means. One ounce is currently allowed, that's 28 grams. That is 60 to 80 joints. That is 121 hitters or hits, okay? They are thinking about doubling that. So that would who would need who would be inconvenienced by possibly being limited to buying 60 to 80 joints worth, either a person that's diverting cannabis or a person who is struggling with cannabis use disorder. Cannabis primarily impacts learning and memory centers in the developing brain, in addition to the increased risk of all addictions due to the wiring of the brain. According to the National Substance Abuse and Addiction Statistics, youth who use any drug before the age of 15 years old are six point five times more likely to develop a substance use disorder later in life. We are in Vermont suffering from a mental health and substance use crisis. I do not feel like this would help. And I want to somebody said earlier, the voices that are missing, the voices that are missing are youth. I fail to see how encouraging use by minority youth is quote unquote equitable. They are barraged by messages on social media and by their favorite artists that have lyrics that glamorize the use of drugs, especially weed. I also want to say medical cannabis is a false narrative. The FDA has approved it for rare seizure disorders, cancer related nausea, and AIDS related anorexia and wasting. Kesha Ram Hinsdale, as the lead senator of the Senate Ethics Committee, I am concerned that Senator White should be transparent with the public that her husband, Dylan Christ, was the first dispensary manager of the Tea House that you own, and has both Miriam and Joe Major, another senator from Windsor County, as professional references to be on the Hartford Planning Board in 2023. Lastly, I speak as a mother of a disabled teenager who has become addicted to cannabis. The access is everywhere. They are regularly offered THC carts at school. As a worker in the school, I have found THC carts discarded in the trash. We have found them in the hallways. We found them in the bathrooms. We have regularly suspended students for using cannabis at school. They have developed cannabis. So back to my child, they have developed cannabis hyperemesis syndrome, had seizures, had psychotic episodes where they were a danger to themselves and others. He luckily is on Vermont Medicaid for the disabled, so that's a hidden cost to the taxpayers. He's not the only one. Our most vulnerable are now addicted and experiencing significant academic, social and medical needs as a result. This is the slippery slope and exactly what folks were worried about initially with cannabis Thank you.

[Representative Michael McCarthy (Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: Thank you for the testimony. Next I have James Charji, Director of Planning Southwestern Vermont Medical Center.

[James Chimerki (Director of Planning, Southwestern Vermont Medical Center)]: Great, thank you. James Chimerki, Director of Planning Southwestern Vermont Medical Center. I'm assuming you can see my screen. I wanna appreciate Senator Clarkson's request that we focus on the bill. My testimony is relevant to the proposed bill because the proposed bill will increase the frequency of a debilitating medical condition and increase healthcare spending by Vermont state, likely overwhelming the tax revenue generated by cannabis sales. Let me reiterate that to be really clear. The proposed bill will increase the frequency of a debilitating medical condition and increase healthcare spending by Vermont state, likely overwhelming the tax revenue generated by cannabis sales. This is an economic testimony. So first cannabis hyperetemesis syndrome, you've probably heard about it. It's a debilitating, cyclic vomiting condition. It's very difficult to actually pin it down. One important point relative to Glocks and others is you're most likely to get CHS if you start using cannabis as a teen, as you just heard from the last two speakers. This has been spoken, this has been appeared in many New York Time articles and public media articles, as well as many actually articles in medical journals. Patients are crying out for help. I won't go through all this. You have my slides so you can read the quotes yourself. Most importantly, the World Health Organization and the Medicare and Medicaid coding has now created a code for CHS. So this is official. This is a real disease. This isn't something fake. This is real. ER visits have spiked 650% since 2016 with regards to CHS. Okay? So it is real. There is no blood test, but that is very similar to many syndromes that are treated throughout medicine. We are still learning the underlying medical etiology of it, but it exists. It's a real thing. Most importantly is because there is no easy medical test, physicians in the emergency department are reticent to document the condition of CHS due to the risk of lawsuits for misdiagnosis. Instead, they document unknown, uncontrolled vomiting. And therefore, when you pull the claims records and you try to see the frequency of CHS, it doesn't show up as very frequent because they're not documented as CHS because there is no definitive test, okay? So just in terms of numbers, let's talk numbers. Right now, SVMC's emergency department is roughly seeing two patients daily with CHS. That's 7,000 CHS ED visits per year in Vermont. Eighteen percent of those are in the ED for more than six hours. Now, why are they in the ED for more than six hours? They're in the ED for more than six hours because there's no definitive test for CHS. So what happens is we have to do really expensive and protracted workups of these patients to rule out everything else. And this is very, very expensive for the healthcare institutions. The most important point that I wanna make is this last one here, about 47% are on Vermont Medicaid. Vermont taxpayers are foot in the bill for cannabis hyperemesis syndrome. So the cannabis industry is creating tax dollars through economic development to the state, but those tax dollars are being drained away by payment through Vermont Medicaid for healthcare. To the tune of over $5.5500000.0 just for the emergency department visits. And there's primary care visits and endoscopy visits that are outside of this money. The last point that I wanna make is that our current label in Vermont does not mention CHS at all. And this creates an opportunity for any patient that's had CHS to hire a lawyer and sue the state for not putting on the label the risk of which is unknown. It's documented by World Health Organization and everywhere else. So in the end of the day, I recommend three immediate recommendations. You see them here. But more importantly, with regards to Bill I do not recommend you pass it. If I was to design a bill to increase the frequency of CHS in Vermont residents, I could not design a bill better. I would increase the potency, I would increase the package size, I would increase the purchase limits. And I would also allow, advertising in areas where there's children under the 21. Lastly, I want you to just read this last statement here, which is it is possible Vermont is spending more on health care expenses related to cannabis than they're making in cannabis revenue. This is an economic committee. Please consider that. Thank you.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you very much. And I think our last witness, who is up is Rick Are you in person? Ah, you are the person that kept coming up. Hi. Welcome.

[Commissioner Rick Hildebrand (Vermont Department of Health)]: Hello all. For the record, Rick Hildebrand, Commissioner for the Department of Health. I don't think I'll use all five minutes. A couple of things I want to touch on. So for adolescent brain development, first of all, brain development continues into the mid-20s, especially in three specific regions, the prefrontal cortex, which is the area of your brain that's responsible for executive function impulse control, the amygdala, which is our emotional regulation center and our fear response in the hippocampus, which is for memory formation and learning. Regular adolescent cannabis use has been associated with altered amygdala development, reduced hippocampal volume, and impaired white matter conductivity, which has been observed in youth outcomes. We see two times increases in the rates of depression among youth users than non users. We see increased anxiety, suicidal ideation, suicide attempts, lower academic achievement. One study quoted an eight point drop in IQ amongst cannabis users and increased dropout rates. There's significant impact to youth for using cannabis and something that we feel strongly should be avoided at all costs. Addiction independence, up to thirty percent of users will develop a cannabis use disorder. Higher potency is associated with increased dependence, increased daily use, and greater withdrawal symptoms. And high THC exposure is associated or linked with adolescents being more vulnerable to dependence than in adults. This is an addictive, a highly addictive substance, and we've been seeing that increasing over time. With that, we've also unfortunately seen significant negative outcomes associated with specifically high potency cannabis, which is defined in most studies as a THC content of greater than 10%. So much lower than what we're talking about in this bill. Folks who are using high potency cannabis have a three times the likelihood of developing psychosis, things such as schizophrenia, and daily users have a five time increase amongst non users. So we have addiction, we have high potency, and we're seeing significant mental health outcomes, not just depression and anxiety, but psychosis and schizophrenia. Seems to be a dose response relationship with this. Higher, potency increases, the risk as does higher frequency, and addiction just makes that snowball. We're seeing an impact in our population. Up to twenty percent of new psychoses are attributable to cannabis. We're seeing an increase in psychosis in markets where it's legal. And in high potency markets, we're seeing a very high correlation between psychosis and cannabis use in up to fifty percent of users. It's really concerning and a concerning trend across the country and in Vermont. This has a lifelong impact. These are individuals who oftentimes are permanently disabled or require lifelong psychiatric care, is incredibly, of course, costly and debilitating. We're talking about less people in the labor market and increased costs to our health insurance and to cost to our medical institutions. Emergency department utilization in Vermont between sixteen and twenty twenty two, we have seen a significant increase in cannabis poisoning, cannabis hyperemesis syndrome, as you just heard about, and behavioral health presentations linked to cannabis. There's an increased cost associated with this substance. Cannabis hyperemesis is something I see regularly in my clinical practice on the inpatient unit. It is very challenging to treat, especially in folks who have a substance use disorder with cannabis. We're seeing evidence that links THC and cannabis use to cardiovascular risks, stroke, hypertension, heart attacks, arrhythmias, all related to cannabis use. As we see more use across the country, these are becoming more clear and again, have significant negative health outcomes to folks. And just as a reminder, I mean, the initial legislative intent here was to shift from an illicit market to a regulated system. It had potency caps, it had purchase limits, it has advertising restrictions to minors and youth protection measures in place. Shifting that undoes a lot of this, and it really has a significant public health outcome to Vermonters that I think should be considered when you're discussing this. Thank you. And if there is any questions, I'm happy to answer them.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you, Commissioner. It's a miracle, but we're actually on time. And we appreciate everybody taking the time out of their days to come and help us appreciate and understand the challenges in the bill and also the opportunities.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Is the commissioner still there?

[Representative Michael McCarthy (Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: Commissioner? Windsor, you're still there.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Are you still there?

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Can. Can you just send us a citation of all your sources when you send your testimony, like links and citations, Happy

[Commissioner Rick Hildebrand (Vermont Department of Health)]: to send a number of articles.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden]: There's out there.

[Glauke Koymans (Prevention Coordinator, Southwest VT Supervisory Union)]: To do that.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale]: Any data you cited, just make sure it's

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: your testimony and your data would be great.

[Unidentified staff/Zoom host]: Don't have written

[Commissioner Rick Hildebrand (Vermont Department of Health)]: I just have some

[Senator Thomas Chittenden]: I'm happy to happy to give that.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right, thank you. And it's lovely to meet you, even if it's on Zoom. And welcome to State Government. Thank you everybody. This was terrific. Really appreciate your time and we we're are, done. So we Senate Economic Development, we'll see you at 10:45 back in our room. And

[Representative Michael McCarthy (Chair, House Government Operations and Military Affairs)]: Yes. And House Government Operations, 10:45 back in our room. Thank you, everyone, for the time and the info.