Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Here we are. Welcome everybody to a new week at Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs. Today is our housing day. It's a Tuesday, and we are turning ourselves to section 12 of our housing bill s three twenty eight. And with us, we have a a terrific assortment of people who are experts in this area and in this proposal who I am sure are all gonna wanna weigh in, which is why we've invited them. So we're going to begin with Richard Wahby, who is executive vice president of and director of safety and training and member services of the Associated General Contractors. So welcome, Richard. It's good to have you back tonight, Randy.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Thank you very much for having me.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We would love to hear how you feel about sex with well. Well

[Richard Wahby (Associated General Contractors of Vermont)]: and I have a handout I'm I'm happy to share with you, I appreciate the opportunity to comment on the proposals. My concern is we are creating incentives or favoring a distinct group of contractors. And within the state of Vermont right now, less than 90% less than 10% of the work the construction workforce is actually made up of a unionized workforce. The 90% range, and it gets lower in some counties, it drops to about 97%. Some counties are nonunion houses. And by incentivizing a union build or or putting stipulations on this, We are going to slow down the build out of housing. We're gonna minimize our workforce or No. You're meeting gonna

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That was so random. I don't know why you're coming through my computer. Sorry. We don't either, but let's keep going. Or

[Richard Wahby (Associated General Contractors of Vermont)]: you're gonna have to use a larger share or extremely large share of out of state contractors to meet that union threshold with which you're setting in there. Many of our Vermont contractors are, small family. Small

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: family. Big family. I'm just gonna

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: have to ask you to not use such a Family.

[Richard Wahby (Associated General Contractors of Vermont)]: You're the one screwing Okay? Me Small family businesses, and those businesses are gonna be placed at a disadvantage. If we're looking at the infrastructure required within the houses, the plumbing, the electrical, or heating, we see a larger share of contractors that are unionized in those area. The build out themselves for the larger share of the house is generally non unionized. So I got a handout. I can go in deeper. I just think within this, we're gonna create an increase of cost to build those houses, often significantly. The rural areas, will be excluded. You just won't be able to afford, to go into those areas. And then, it will create an uneven playing field out there that prioritizes one group of people over the other. The last thing we would wanna do as a group is discriminate against a group of

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: folks. So one thing we've talked informally about, and we haven't yet taken action on redrafting this with Ham or Ellen, one thing that I know we've talked about, because it's a little general and it's just one sentence, we've talked about qualifying this to be multiunit residential units, obviously, not individual family homes, which would need clarification. So it could eliminate, you know, making this provision for multiunit for large, you know, for large housing construction construction. And the other piece that has been considered, and I've asked that all the witnesses think about this is that we might consider limiting this to multiunit substantial multiunit residential dwellings and using union or prevailing wage to address the issue of the workforce in Vermont that may so that that those have been some things. Do have any thoughts about that?

[Richard Wahby (Associated General Contractors of Vermont)]: If the prevailing wage does quality, we're paying it. We pay it. It it earned the whole deal. Within that, the it doesn't matter whether it's multiunit or single unit when you get out there. When you set a 20% threshold, which is what I understood the section 12 reference of when you set a 20% threshold and only 7% of your workforce is unionized, you you can't beat that threshold building that out.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It it well, I think that it's saying that I I think I I think it's a positive. It's meant to be a positive thing, which is if you use union labor for this type of housing construction, that you would get a 20% bonus density bonus that meant you could build more housing on that lot. And that that if that's the the the care.

[Richard Wahby (Associated General Contractors of Vermont)]: Maybe I misinterpreted the way

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think that's my understanding is that that is that that it's really meant to be up.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: For the span of density further.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: She she is trying to encourage density as we all are in the appropriate places. I think that that this is meant to say if you do use union labor or have a prevailing wage on these units, that you would get a a density bonus. So

[Richard Wahby (Associated General Contractors of Vermont)]: and and I'm not nearly as educated in this room here when it comes to this. But in my mind, if we wanna build houses Absolutely. Every time we put another block in front of that build, we'd slow it down. And so I'm a developer,

[Larry Baldwin (Business Manager, Laborers’ Local 668; VP, VT Building Trades; President, VT AFL-CIO)]: and I wanted to have

[Richard Wahby (Associated General Contractors of Vermont)]: a house in the and I've got my permits in place to build my houses, and now I can get 20% more if I do this. I gotta go back to the drawing board, start again, and take a look at what I'm pulling together. So it I mean, it's my fear again is our goal should be simple, get the best work we can out there, best price using the best materials and the best workforce. And any policy that would restrict or incentivize anything outside of that, then we should rethink this. Right.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: And I feel like you're throwing that on the table. Thank you. Any questions for Richard before we move on?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Great. Richard, good to have you.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Thank you. Have a question. Oh, Randy. Sorry. Almost gone. Don't know. Woah, I have a very lengthy question. Go ahead, Tom. As a contractor, as a developer, and you obviously know what particularly smaller businesses are doing in Vermont in the contracting area, what are the obstacles for using union labor?

[Richard Wahby (Associated General Contractors of Vermont)]: I don't know if there's obstacles to it, but historically Vermont has not embraced union labor other than within the electrical or plumbing field. I think, seriously, I think in the next five to ten years, Randy, we would have a different conversation. I know we are working with, we are the largest trade educator right now when it comes to it. We're working with KOL to present, the apprenticeship model. We're working I'm

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: so grateful for that.

[Richard Wahby (Associated General Contractors of Vermont)]: We're working to present the NCCDR core development model, which also pushes forward some of the apprenticeship pieces. So so I think it's a different scope. It's not like and and I hate to say back in my day, but back in my day, we came into the industry and learned from that, not necessarily this teaching philosophy. So I think we have a different conversation in a few years. Right.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: But not today. Great. We need housing. Yeah. Thank you. Thank

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: so you. Much. And given our time, we're gonna

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: No.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Pledge allegiance.

[Richard Wahby (Associated General Contractors of Vermont)]: You're good.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. Thank you so much for making the time to come in. Larry, would you be kind enough to join us? Sure. And, Randy, before you Thank hope you heard when I said we're looking at this. It's probably a multi I

[Richard Wahby (Associated General Contractors of Vermont)]: did put my solar hands on your handout sheet if you want to talk to me. Thank you.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Great. Thank you, Richard. Thank you. Very welcome. It's good to see you. You introduce yourself. And you know, I think all of us, have you met all

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: of us?

[Larry Baldwin (Business Manager, Laborers’ Local 668; VP, VT Building Trades; President, VT AFL-CIO)]: Yeah, I

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: mean. Over the last year.

[Larry Baldwin (Business Manager, Laborers’ Local 668; VP, VT Building Trades; President, VT AFL-CIO)]: The last couple of years. So, I'm Larry Baldwin. I am the business manager for Laborers Local six sixty eight, which covers a portion of New Hampshire and the entire state of Vermont. I'm the vice president of Building Trades here in Vermont, and I also am the president of the AFL CIO. I appreciate your time and then, you know, taking this up, and I really appreciate the idea that's in S three twenty eight. I think we need to clarify it like you Yeah. Are already talking about. And I would just say, I did some I didn't get to write you guys some testimony. I will submit some later on, but it's been a busy few weeks here. But a survey that or analysis that the Association of General Contractors of America did that came out in 2022 with almost 6,000, you know, 1,800 union contractors, 3,900 contractors, showed that, you know, when you're building housing and needing a workforce, that union contractors, 21% of the time, will be more less likely to experience any delays during the construction due to worker shortages. 14% less likely filling these craft worker positions, 8% more likely to add workers, and we, most of the time, have less supply chain issues due to our contractors being bigger and having more contacts. And then just to our apprenticeship programs, you guys are getting them off the ground here. All of the building trades have registered apprenticeship programs already, which are zero cost to the taxpayer. We we see this as a partnership, and we also you guys haven't been introduced, but we have the AFL CIO Housing Investment Trust Fund, which is the $7,300,000,000 endowment that invests in affordable and workforce housing. But the caveat out of it is it has to be built with a 100%. We do not see that we would ever come up as a worker shortage here because we're building we're not building 30 unit or 30 story buildings in Downtown Boston. We're building, you know, six stories, 200 unit buildings, and you're you're not building a 100 of them at a time. So I think that working together, we could make this work. But to have some incentive for the workers is always what's left out. We just heard about the developers. We just heard about the contractors, but we're not doing the fair trade with the actual work force. And the workforce is the one that is going to bring the economic development that they were looking for in the economic added to the local areas where these projects are being done. So if they're being paid more, then they're gonna spend more in the local community. And that's the only way to solve the problems here in Vermont with affordability. And we wanna, you know, bring more people here because it adds tax revenue. Higher wages items add tax revenue. Unions typically will always have medical, dental, vision for their members, so we will not be subsidizing from the state. Our our benefit plans carry throughout the winter where a lot of, you know, nonunion plans do not. So I feel like the idea is excellent, and I feel like we can we may not fix it, but we are definitely a tool that's not being utilized here in this crisis and.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So you heard thank you, Larry. That that's helpful. You heard me sort of qualify that one of the things we've been talking about is clarifying this for multiunit, you know, fairly good sized Yep. Development rather than individual homes, And also considering the prevailing wage being if if there isn't because I I would love to have you speak to the percent to the because it is a concern how much union labor is actually here at the moment for con you know, for building contractors. So I guess my question is of the current affordable housing fee, affordable housing projects that are Yeah. That that are going on at the moment with Chittenden Housing Trust or with Twin Pines, how much of that labor is already unionized? So I would say minimal. Like like the ABC

[Larry Baldwin (Business Manager, Laborers’ Local 668; VP, VT Building Trades; President, VT AFL-CIO)]: or AGC guy said, it would be the skilled trades here. Yes. And one thing that Vermont is lacking is the unskilled trades training because construction goes at a snail's pace here. And that's something that needs to be addressed if we're ever going to create an affordable Vermont. And what do you mean by unskilled?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Because every trade is a skill.

[Larry Baldwin (Business Manager, Laborers’ Local 668; VP, VT Building Trades; President, VT AFL-CIO)]: Well, this is what he was saying. So we all have apprenticeship programs. Right. And My we laborers, which everybody looks down on a labor, but we will do four thousand hours in the field and then three hundred hours in the classroom before you are considered a journey worker. And through that time, you will take not only learn in the field, but learn all these things that you may not even need right away, but in the long run throughout your career, because nobody's gonna trust a brand new apprentice to run the grade on a site project. And we may it's it's the most important job there, but we all know how to do it when we leave the training center. Right. So the other thing that the non Indian workforce and the construction industry happens is a lot of, a lot of them move on from the construction industry because there is no future. I have numerous members here that are public sector employees working for cities and towns that have moved on from the construction sector to get a pension or health care that's good or all these things. So the union model creates the stability of your workforce, and then with the apprenticeship programs and the training, it creates a better product, which normally comes in on time, under budget, on budget, and really to pay a little more and make sure your building is live as soon as possible seems like it should be in the developers and the contractors' best interest because especially in housing, if you're not filling those units, you're not generating any rent.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And this is meant to be a carrot so that we can build more housing. It's a density bonus. Right. It's not

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: a it it it doesn't punish anybody else. It's an additional benefit for eating into labor.

[Larry Baldwin (Business Manager, Laborers’ Local 668; VP, VT Building Trades; President, VT AFL-CIO)]: Yeah. And, I mean, the project labor agreement model, we could visit too if you guys were willing, and JP could get the AFL Housing Investment Trust people to talk to you about

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: that because an additional incentive, obviously.

[Larry Baldwin (Business Manager, Laborers’ Local 668; VP, VT Building Trades; President, VT AFL-CIO)]: It's it's a huge amount of money, and it's been used in every New England state except for Maygravement, New Hampshire. So we should use it somewhere up here, and it's been utilized in New York. Which which which is great. Hundreds of thousands of units that they've put online.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Well, 70,300,000,000.0 is a topic. And I could right now, we're all Everybody to Right. Exactly. Thank you. We would appreciate having your testimony sent to Cara and to all of us. Any questions for Larry before we move? Well, I just say, you know, while Larry's in the witness chair,

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I mean, came out of a lot of conversations about the communities that wanna build large scale multifamily housing. Most of their leaders, their mayors, or their town managers want to as part of their discussions about building height and zoning and and density, they want to use union labor. You know, they want to see more union activity in their communities, in Burlington, I'm gonna just keep for example, where these big projects are happening. And for me, this is a way of saying, you know, you you get some of what you want, but without, as often is true on the sort of liberal side of things, constraining the project more and more throughout the process so that it no longer, you know, has the cost per unit that that we would like to see. So it's the the win win of all of this is that you could have a union built project that then people in unions can afford to live in, you know, that that serves middle class needs. And I think that's what a lot of leaders in communities ready to build multifamily housing wanna see is that this strain that's the middle class. So I you know, and I think that's what government is here for. I heard this said to politicize these things, but we're here to sometimes pick winners. We're not even saying there's losers involved in this, but we're we're saying that unions and labor are winners for the economy and for the middle class. And that's, you know, what this committee has traditionally done is try and figure out ways to bolster collective bargaining and people having access to long term sustainable jobs. Right?

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: And I still haven't heard anything that tells me that this is going to result in an increase in housing or an increase in the ability to build housing. Well, what do you wanna hear? Well, I'm I'm saying, what's the purpose?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: The incentive is to, if you use union labor, that you get to build more units on that location, that you would have a density bonus. Why did

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I not say same thing to non union? If you are a contractor who has a labor force, then you can fill more units on a location that we want you to.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think that is a question that I would like to, given that we have ten minutes left, I would love to have that conversation among us as we discuss

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Well, again, think it's equally appropriate to have it also with the unions so that we get the input, the people who actually know what they're talking about. We don't.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. So to that end, I'd love to bring Matt Glovin up, who is the president of the Vermont Building and Construction Trades Council, so that we can continue this conversation, but hear all our witnesses before we have to move to senate national. Good point. Good question. Thanks for having me today.

[Matt Glovin (President, Vermont Building & Construction Trades Council; Business Agent, Ironworkers Local 7)]: Good to be here. Matt Clappin. I'm the business agent for New Hampshire and Vermont for the IAMRPS Local seven. We're based out of Boston, but we also cover Maine as well. We have a few satellite offices. I'm also recently elected the president of law building trades. Congratulations. We represent thousands of skilled workers across the state of Vermont. I'm just gonna kind of speak mostly about PLAs. That's basically what I'm gonna talk about today. PLA?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: What is a PLA? Project labor agreements.

[Matt Glovin (President, Vermont Building & Construction Trades Council; Business Agent, Ironworkers Local 7)]: Thank you. And the importance of union labor. Union labor isn't a workforce preference. It directly impacts quality, safety, efficiency, efficiency, and long term economic stability. Workers are compensated and they have the ability to retire with dignity. You know, that's the things that we do every day. And that's something that's important, you know. We bring quality and skilled construction. You need apprenticeship programs to produce highly skilled workers with years of hands on experience, ensuring durable and resilient housing for the state of Vermont as well. Another thing that we do is, in the ironworks, we have six thousand hours that's required in the three years of apprenticeship. So like I said, it's not, it's very, it takes a special kind of person to just get up on the iron and do work. You shall have apprentices that are doing that, that's gotta work your way to that. Same with welding and same with all the other stuff. The aspects of our trade, sorry, rebar reinforcing, windows in class, which would typically work at womb lifts at high heights, dealing with cranes at heights, and then the safety that comes along with that. The culture that we build as we learn from journeymen, as we learn from performing, etcetera. With PLAs too, there's also project stability. They maintain a reliable supply of workers, which usually I'm the one that supplies them. We've done multitudes of bridges across the state, no issues, hitting pitting targets. We actually got called to go to Burlington Place from the first phase of it took almost a year. We got it done in sixteen days. Now these are the things that we do. We build things to last. We build things with efficiency and our members know that and that's the reason why we've been around for over one hundred and twenty five years. We also offer Helmets to Hardhats, which is a program through the National Building Trades, and that's a direct pipeline for veterans to get right into advice to apprenticeship. And this is something I'm sure that Vermonters would love to hear too, is when they come back into their service, they know they have a pipeline to do a bit of flash jobs right off the bat. And that's something we bring with PLAs. Like that's it. We can put simulations in there for how it's hard to have. We can ensure veterans are getting on these projects. We can ensure that local workforce is getting on these projects so that, you know, you're building something with with state money, and there's gonna be a stability with that that that rises all all times. Even though, I mean, this a PLA does not require that only union trades can bid on projects, just requires they meet the standards that are in that PLA. So it isn't pushing them out, it's just making the developers, the owners have to maybe pay their workers a little more.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So is that something we should consider adding to this union labor and Yeah, or mean, depending on the

[Matt Glovin (President, Vermont Building & Construction Trades Council; Business Agent, Ironworkers Local 7)]: project and the municipality. Like I said, we can, you know, we'll work with any developer. So far, it's been it's been a tough battle in Vermont. You know, we're but, you know, it's something that

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: we wanna work on. We wanna create the culture here. So so what if this bill passed tomorrow and even if we didn't modify it at all, would you have enough union labor in the construction trade? Not in the specialty trades, because we know I mean, in subcontracting trades. We know we have know we that's a pretty and we still need more plumbers and electricians, but we know we have them. The question I have for you is because it's one that Richard raised. Do we have enough workforce at the moment, enough union workforce at the moment in Vermont to meet the demand if this went through?

[Matt Glovin (President, Vermont Building & Construction Trades Council; Business Agent, Ironworkers Local 7)]: I mean, for

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: us If people wanted that extra 20%.

[Matt Glovin (President, Vermont Building & Construction Trades Council; Business Agent, Ironworkers Local 7)]: For us, it's a challenge. We probably have about 20 some online workers that live in the state of Vermont. Tom, who was my steward, he lives in Burlington, South Burlington, so for him that was a great job, because he got to go to five minutes from his house. You go to Burlington place. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, but it is a challenge because, you know, it's been the building trades especially, I can't speak to all the mechanical trades, the electricians, It's just been, it's been hard for us and for developers to get on board with us. It's been kind of like, it feels like an untapped well. Yeah. And that's something that we can help legislate, you guys can help legislatively and then we can work on providing you the workforce for these projects. It's a relationship that we both can have together where we're just building this as we go. I I like iron workers, because my grandfather was iron workers. Oh, what? Yeah. I'm a second generation. My dad did thirty years in the trade. He passed away three years ago, but he got twelve years of David Clyde retirement. He got to enjoy the fruits of a long sustained career. So help me understand the difference between an iron worker and well Well, we have welders that are We

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: train at the reason I ask is CTE, we have a very good welding program around the state, but I never hear them talk about iron work. Is that a piece of the welding training? It is,

[Matt Glovin (President, Vermont Building & Construction Trades Council; Business Agent, Ironworkers Local 7)]: but it I mean, multiple multiple crafts weld. Yes. So pipe fitters weld, you know, millwrights. Iron workers are just kinda like a special kinda silly well-being. Like we're the ones that are us, you know, hanging off the building upside down, in some cases 20 stories above the street. We do the stuff that most people look at and like, you know, we build things also too. We balance our grandkids and our needs to say, let me build that. Right. It's point of project, you know, like I have a few projects, mainly a big bridge that I did in Amesbury, Mass. It was probably one of the, you know, watching frozen river water flow underneath you while you're 300 feet up in the end making balls. Sitting on a piece of wood that's flowing in the breeze takes a special kind of person. So like, that's why like ironworking is not something that I can say that, you know, not but not everybody who knows welding fits the mold of an ironworker. Whereas most ironworkers can weld.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yes, those iconic photographs in the nineteenth century of the people building the Empire State Building and the crisis. And they're hanging in the air going.

[Matt Glovin (President, Vermont Building & Construction Trades Council; Business Agent, Ironworkers Local 7)]: Now we lease up the safety standard where guys go without eating on the street for somebody to fall so they can take their job.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Any other questions for Matt? Well,

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: think we also want to build up the the supply side with building up the demand side for Chittenden. Right? Like, we just passed a $2,000,000,000 infrastructure program. And we don't I mean, we don't have enough workers in general. Right. Right? Like, they need to see that there's quality of life Right. Ahead of them. My brother-in-law joined the building trades today after working for his parents' family business and my in law's family business. I think this is very good for his quality of life. So he so he's a lot of HVAC experience and finally gets to kind of be his own his own boss. Yeah. And it's very exciting. And we need more workers, period. And more workers are demanding that they have that quality of life and that they could retire when their bodies are, you know, not able to do the work anymore, and that's what our union is offering.

[Matt Glovin (President, Vermont Building & Construction Trades Council; Business Agent, Ironworkers Local 7)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, thank you. If you'd be kind enough, because I see you do have written stuff down. If you'd be kind enough to email it to Kira. That would be Oh, she has. Okay. Great. Terrific.

[Matt Glovin (President, Vermont Building & Construction Trades Council; Business Agent, Ironworkers Local 7)]: Thank you. Thank you.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And if we have anything further, my guess is we will modify this a bit and we'll keep keep the discussion going. But thank you very much. And we are going to move to Senate Natural Resources where we're gonna hear about the eight zero two homeless proposal. And for those of you who didn't hear building tomorrow on on national public radio last night, it was so exciting, and it really addresses in large measure some of the things we're gonna hear right now. So

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: those of you interested, move we're

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: gonna move on over to the senate natural resources. Go and screen from there. Thank you. That's so awesome.