Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Welcome

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: back to Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs. We're continuing our work, looking at as, 03/27, our economic development bill, and we're gonna turn to section 11, which is, for those of you who are following along, section 11 is on page 10 of the bill and asks is a request to add an enhanced incentive to the Veggie, the Vermont Economic Growth Incentive Program. And we're gonna begin with our legislative council, Rick Segal, talking just a brief history of VEGI and a brief history of the of the two enhanced initiative incentives we have for the month. So, Rick, it is yours when you are ready. Good morning.

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Rick Siegel with the office of resident council, and I just got into Zoom, so great timing on that delivery. So, yes, I am looking at s three twenty seven, and, I've actually prepared a little bit, a little bit of I have a little bit of history of veggie. I was asked to kind of add.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: The question was, as far

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: as the enhanced incentive in the past, was that a legislative proposal, or was that maybe a VEPSI proposal, or maybe something in between? I don't have a perfect answer for you, but I do have some history that I went through, the veggie program in general, and really going back to 1998 is what I have on the screen here, and this is, based on my research, the original creation of Pepsi, you're curious when it started, and back then there was no veggie, it was called veggie back then. There were various economic incentives, and you can kind of see what they were. There was a workforce incentive, there was, let's see here, economic advancement research and development tax credit. So various there was more incentives, specific incentives through this newly created PEPC system back in 1998. So flash forward to '19 I'm sorry, 2006, Veggie was created in that year, and there was not any specific enhanced incentive. Veggie did have a Pepsi had the option to kinda create its own enhancement that it deemed necessary, but there was not a specific green veggie that you've heard of the environmental technology or the labor market. That was not yet in existence. So this is, again, this is 2000 and, actually '7, this bill was.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Oh, wait.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I thought you said 1998.

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So 1998 was the original economic incentive program.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Oh, it was felonies.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: That actually was 1998.

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Was I kicked out? You just got kicked out. Good.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Is I'm

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: having a computer problem this morning.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: You got me kicked out of her seniors in

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: front Right. I was another I think it's now it's opening all my Zoom windows that I probably clicked on earlier, so I clicked on it 10 times, so that may happen again. Back to 02/1978, where you had Veggie created, and in 2000 and the next year, you had the green veggie added. So this is when green veggie was specifically added.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Going

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: back in the history of the bill, there was no purpose statement. There wasn't any that I could find committee testimony about who suggested green veggie. My guess was that they came in with the idea of something, but there was no purpose in the act that said, this is why we're doing this. This is why.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: This is funny because I did a Green Jobs Amendment in 2009, and the only person, like, who could who speaks to that at the time was the workforce collaborative guy. Gosh. I could find his name.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It Yes.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: There was, like, one guy because Green Jobs was a new It was Brad. I mean, it wasn't Brad, but new to the legislature for us

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: to start track out that in 2009.

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So, again, just a little history here just for your reference and if you wanna use it for your

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: future Right. That's period that you was added what year?

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: 2008.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: I have it. You articulated the what? You said that you haven't really articulated why these incentives were created? The enhanced incentives? Yes.

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. So at this point in this year, I have no reference for that. There was no information I could find, no purpose statement.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I was emailing with David Hall in 2009, and we based it on California Law 28.55. And this was the start of era dollars. This was the start of recovery and reinvestment. And the idea that if we were going to create shovel ready projects and put put dollars into the economy to re stimulate post recession or during the recession, we would we would put it toward jobs. So So David Hall knows something.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But this incentive was created a year before that.

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: This is oh, wait.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But it was at start of the great recession.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It has no object. It has no intent. This is why we have 10 sections for you.

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I have more information coming. Kind of going in chronological order.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: Patent would also remain. Yeah. Okay.

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Scoping out of 2015, and really this is a 2016 session, but the adjourned session, Pepsi, at that point it was Fred Kinney, he was the executive director He came in requesting a labor market enhancement. There was not again, at that time, this is ten years ago, there was not a specific enhanced incentive for a labor market area that had lower employment rates. So this is a this is what I found. This is his testimony. This is his written testimony in 2015 that is giving information about why, in his mind, and in the mind of Epstein, that this enhanced incentive would be beneficial to the Invention Program. With that testimony, the law was amended in 2016 to allow for this new, not what we have today, but a kind of precursor to what we have today, that a business in a labor market area in which the average annual unemployment rate is greater than the average annual unemployment rate for the states, or in which the average annual wage below the average annual wage for the states. And again, this is old law, we don't have this anymore, it's just kind of showing you this, the progression of the labor market enhanced incentives. Also in that year, the Veggie program was totally retransformed. It was moved to a different chapter in title 32. Just, again, David Cole undertook this. I don't know how he did this, but he he undertook a retransformation. The enhancement didn't change. The enhanced incentives didn't change. It was just moved to a new part of the chapter. But I figure this is kind of a 2016, a big moment in time because this is when you started having these sunset repeals could as well. You had, I think, initially a five year repeal of hedging put in. So there was something that when this was done, it was saying, let's keep an eye on this to make sure this is what

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: we wanna do, put a

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: five year repeal on it, and, of course, since then, it's been prospectively delayed. The repeal's been delayed every subauthor. In that same bill where you retransformed the venue program, there is a report request of Betsy asking about these incentives, saying that why why did we do this? Why why are the enhanced incentives necessary? So this provided some good information to me to read this and figure out what what was happening back then.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And that report came in in January 17?

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: This is yes. 2017. Yep. January 2017. So this report told the legislature that the both in their markets, the labor market area and the green veggie were beneficial. That was kind of the executive summary. However, that there was never any purpose statements in law to kind of signify to the people and to you all, like, why should we do this? Why should we keep this? One of their suggestions in this report was that you all, the general assembly, actually add in purpose statements, not quite retroactively, but kind of, saying that this is the reason why green veggie is beneficial and the labor market incentive is beneficial. So that year, the legislature acted as maybe the yeah. Twenty twenty eighteen Twenty eighteen, not '17? No. But it was so it was the first session. So it was 2017, act 69, adding new language, the purpose statement for the labor market area, pretty simple, the purpose of the enhanced and this is in current law, by the way. The purpose of the enhanced incentive for a business in the qualifying labor market area is to increase job growth and economically disadvantaged regions of the state. How does that work?

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Oh, I'm sorry.

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. The Greening Veggie as well was given a purpose statement to promote the growth of businesses in Vermont that both create and sustain high quality jobs and improve the natural environment. This, again, this is 2017. Since then, there have not been any major change to VEGI, especially the enhanced incentives have not been have not been amended in any major way. The the from my research, what we've done is the repeal is currently set for 01/01/2027. Right. Before, it was, I think, 2024, and then Yeah. Yeah. February. So, madam chair, the question as to who has developed these incentives, if I go back to this report where they look at this, they also didn't So

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: it's it's it's something. They they they have, Venus on the Hashtag. Should have merged. Yeah.

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I I I based on what I think the labor market area was a Pepsi based on what I've read, I think the labor market area was a Pepsi proposal that said, look, we think that this labor market area is a decent place to have this enhanced incentive. That's not a 100% clear, but I'd say 90% certainty. The green veggie, I have no idea. I really don't know.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, I think the green veggie, as Kesha certainly referred to, there was a lot of energy around supporting our green economy. And in those days when there were lots of incentives being offered financially, both federally and statewide, it made it it perfect it it, in many ways, complimented a lot of

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: the other with Joe Baker. Oh, how great. From Rutland.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Which was even I don't know how it's all gone since then. Right. So what we can

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: much GE wanted it and others.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Oh, yeah. There were it was there was a lot of energy behind it. Thank you, Randy. If you could just stay there. Matt, I think we're gonna bring you in to chat about this most current proposal, which is to enhance to provide another enhanced incentive. And I believe, Matt, you've got us we should take this down. Can we take this down so we can see that? This? Yeah and Rick just send us that language the of the two the purpose behind both incentives. I can't. Thank you. That was great. That and we can make that full screen great.

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Alright. Hello, everyone.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Hi. On. We're getting you up to volume.

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Alright. Testing. Testing.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Matt, welcome.

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Thanks for having me.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I believe you've testified in this committee before. In the last year or two of you, have you met all of us just quickly?

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: I I think most if not all, but Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Just looking at the looking at the tiny faces here.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. So I'm Alison Clarkson, Windsor District. Randy.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Randy Brock, Freshman County in Northern Grand Isle.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Good morning, David Weeks, representative of. Tom Chittenden, Chittenden Southeast.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Kesha Ram Hinsdale, we were at UVM.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Awesome. Oh, nice. So, Matt, would you be kind enough to speak to us about how this enhanced incentive evolved and how you think it would benefit Vermont business at the moment?

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Yeah. Yeah. So just kind of just so everyone's clear on sort of my my role here. You know, I'm the executive director of Vermont Employee Ownership Center, nonprofit. We received some funding from the from ACCD among other other sources. Right? Mission is to promote and foster broad based employee ownership, you know, for broadening capital ownership, deepening participation, etcetera. Right? And from our perspective, right, the the, role that employee ownership plays in Vermont's economic development is these are companies that are sticky, that they are, they provide good jobs, they lay people off at a lower rate, they provide opportunities to build wealth that otherwise wouldn't exist. And so from from the perspective of the state of Vermont, having a greater concentration of employee ownership in the economy is something that has a number of benefits. You know, so looking at this particular legislation, I had a couple there are a couple of sort of minor comments that I had, but also sort of just the the broader overall, you know, question of what is you know, for for you all as you think about charting the course of, you know, the Vermont's economic development policy, the question of, you know, how does how does ownership of the companies, especially the companies that are receiving public dollars, the ownership structure itself fit into fit into that strategy, I think, is an is an important thing to consider. In terms of the the the legislation and kind of how it fits for for us, right, we wanna see more more employee owners in Vermont. And there's really two ways of doing that. Right? And we we work on both of them. One is supporting the conversion of existing companies when someone wants to retire. I know another part of this bill is has ownership succession as a key piece of of the focus, and that is ownership succession to employee ownership is is a really sort of important piece of our strategy in the work that we do. The other part is creating an environment in which employee owned companies with their unique strengths can thrive and grow, and and that creates more employee owned jobs. And that that connects directly to the to this legislation. Right? And so I think the you know, when I was you know, one one thing that immediately stuck out to me that I feel like was very, very important, and it's something that we see in a lot of programs that in which employee ownership doesn't necessarily, you know, isn't necessarily thought of when it's being crafted was the creating the, you know, the the language that includes employee owners as employee owner owned jobs as eligible jobs. Previously, you know, the, you know, owner owner jobs were were excluded entirely. And so that that feel that felt immediately very important to me to make sure that employee ownership jobs are minimum on par in this program. And and one other, minor thing just to be aware of in terms of definitions is the so there's kind of two when we think about broad based employee ownership, the two definitions that have federal federal recognition and are you used in this in this bill, right, are the sort of employee stock ownership plan or ESOP, and the worker cooperative, which is defined in a few different ways. Obviously, when you're kind of working with setting the boundaries around these kinds of things, there's, yeah, there there's always gonna be some some nuance lost. And one thing I just wanted to tag about a specific company in Vermont, and this incentive is, Chroma Technologies, down in Bellows Falls, I know has been a veggie recipient in the past, is definitely, you know, broad based and play ownership company in our community, but is kind of a neither fish nor fowl, so, doesn't fit neatly into either of these these these categories. And so one thing I would I would tag would be the under the worker cooperative definition, the sort of the kind of the voting for the board on one member, one vote basis. In the case of in the case of Chroma, they basically as you work there, you accumulate shares each year, and it's you have your your shares kind of determine your vote weight. And so that might be one thing that I just noticed that under the current definition, Chroma would not be included. But if that were tweaked, something with direct employee ownership like Chroma could be. So so beyond beyond the those kind of just minor things that I I was noticing as as as I was kind of reviewing the language. Yep. Yep.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: The definitions are in section three three five. Is that right?

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Page thirteen three three five a.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yep. Okay. Great. Sorry. We're just trying to follow along, Matt.

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Yep. Yep. No. No. Yeah. And if there's any sort of specific questions about that, I'd be I'd be happy to to to answer that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And if you had ideas on how to tweak that language that would include a company like Chroma, would you, be kind enough to connect with Rick Segal? Mhmm. We can do that line. We can look and we can review it.

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Yep. Yep. That would I'd happy to. I think it's it would be a very minor it would be a very minor language tweak that that would that would would do it, I think. So I can I'd be happy to to send an email with that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Keep going.

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, otherwise, I think just the this is fundamentally a strategic question for you all in terms of with what sorts of companies and how sticky structurally can they be for the impact of Veggie on Vermont's economy. Also, so employee owned companies you know, will tend to be more rooted in their communities because the people who own them live there, right, less inclined to go chasing tax incentives in South Carolina because of a, you know, marginal number on a spreadsheet. But even when they are sold, so, you know, I think one really sort of key example in the last year in terms of the the impact of, you know, building economic development on broad based employee ownership was Vermont information processing. Right? So they've been in ESOP for about twenty years, were were bought last spring. And, you know, there's a billion dollars that went to that was divided up between a couple 100 working Vermonters to create, you know, anywhere between 6 and low 8 figure wealth for for that broad group of people rather than creating one billionaire who would who could, you know, likely decide on a tax optimal venue for where they're gonna be.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: What and that which company was that again?

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Vermont Information Processing and Cultures. Yep. So, you know, even when an employee owned company is sold, and we like to see them go in intergenerational like, you know, Carriage Reels, which has been around for decades. But even when sold, right, the the impact on Vermont's economy and the people of Vermont is gonna be something that's broad based rather than than concentrated and, you know, and looks looks different in terms of the security of Vermonters.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yep. Absolutely. How many oh, David has a question. Pause. You're Okay. Gonna I'm gonna ask, how many how so how many currently ESOPs do we have? And then that's question number one. And two, how many do you think would are are ready and mature enough and I would assume many of them were quite mature to become. How many do you think would take advantage of this? What makes this so attractive to a company that's already succeeding enough to become an ESOP?

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Yeah. So I think there's there's so in terms of kind of privately held, headquartered in Vermont ESOPs, we're we're hanging out around 35 right now, with a number of other kind of companies that may have headquarters elsewhere but have operations in Vermont. And, yeah, a company needs to be of a certain scale and a certain maturity to to do this. Usually, we say at least half million profitability, 20 employees before before kind of an ESOP is is a possibility for them. And so, you know, I think the the largest from an employment perspective in in Vermont is PC construction. You know, we've got variety across industries. And I think and one of the things that can be unique about or sort of unique about employee ownership, right, is that it's from the perspective of capitalization of companies and capitalization for expansion. They have a few a few less options than, equivalent companies that are investor owned. Right? Because, inherently, if you're wanting to maintain a 100% employee ownership, you're not gonna go out and sell common stock to investors. So oftentimes, they'll grow through retained earnings. Right? They have some some some tax incentives at the federal level that that allow them to retain some kind of what would be paid in some federal income tax and and some other, you know, some other things like that. And there's some work at the federal level to sort of create some new investment vehicles that can allow for increased growth. But that sort of ability to take on significant outside risk capital sometimes can be a constraint to an employee owned company's growth. And so an incentive like this can can be something that can be seen in in some ways as offsetting that kind of that capital constraint for companies that are, you know, otherwise healthy cruising along, you know, looking looking for opportunities for growth, but might be somewhat constrained in that way.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So I guess I'm not clear on my end on the answer. If you think that that that there are enough that are ready, to take advantage of this kind of an added incentive, this would be worthwhile?

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Yeah. So so thinking about,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: you create a new incentive if no one's gonna take advantage of it.

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Right. Right. Yeah. No. I think there's, you know, there's there's a number of companies that are large that are large scale enough that are sophisticated and enough in a variety of industries in Vermont for which this would be something that they could look seriously at and would be Again, because of that ability to, you know, the constraints on the ability to raise capital that this could be seen as an offsetting thing that allows them to take on things they otherwise might not take on.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay, great. David, that's it. David, you want to go back to you?

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Yeah. Sure. So I had the advantage for about ten years of being working inside a fully owned company.

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: One of

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: the largest in The US. And the real advantage of an employee owned company is that it motivates the employee for efficiency and return and what have you. I'm just wondering why the state is involved in this type of decision. This is something between the employees and the company owners. I'm just I'm just curious why the state has a, you know, has the best has the best interest in this.

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Are you are

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: know it from the inside.

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Are you asking in terms of this program in particular?

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Yeah, this

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah, think it's an interest map, while we have it, it would be great to have you answer that if want. Why

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: do we

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: need to give any advantage to employee owned company when essentially the very fact they're employee owned is the advantage?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It's one of the advantages.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Think it's huge. Yeah. Yeah. I've lived inside it. I know.

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Yeah. So so I think from my perspective, there's there's a few pieces to that. Right? There's the the sort of benefit to the the state and the kinda question of the economic development goals that you all have. And then there's the question of what, you know, what you know, from from the perspective of the the employee owned company itself. I think from the from the state's perspective, there's the question of you have a limited number of, you know, economic development dollars where your goal is to be growing, with a program like this, right, to be increasing good employment. And I think that if you're thinking about comparing what kinds of companies should those dollars be going to, right, given the existence of the program, benefits of those dollars expanding kind of employee owned jobs and employee competitive high engagement employee owned companies in Vermont, think is a bit I think is reasonable case to be made that that's a bigger bang for for for its buck. Both from kind of a you know, the benefit of increased employment, increased, you know, you know, increased employment that's gonna be sort of sustainable within the state if the the goal of the state is to sort of sort of have that kind of thing compared to a company that might not be as sticky. And come from the from the company perspective, kind of going back to that, what are the barriers to employee ownerships sort of succeeding and expanding? Right? The the plus side is that employee engagement. Right? They and studies bear this out. They're more efficient. People stick around longer. They tend to lay people off less. Right? There's kind of deeper commitment to the company that can really drive drive performance significantly. And what I was talking about before, there is that sort that certain set of limitations around what kinds of capital can support the growth of these companies. And so oftentimes, needs to be greater creativity to in order to sort of maintain that that that employee ownership that we that we want to see. And so, you know, like this, programs that like the there's there's a federal bill right now to kind of create a version of the small business investment company model to that's specifically for for providing more capital to employee ownership. This is kind of this question of sort of access to growth capital is a known, you know, structural challenge that that requires some that requires some creativity to kinda maximize the benefit, if that makes sense.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So that answer your question then. Enough. And we could certainly have Jessica answer. I I would sort of underscore what Matt said. Think

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: while we have you, Matt, you know, when we're talking about successes and areas of growth, you know, we as an economic development committee probably haven't necessarily had an opportunity to talk about gardener supply and, you know, some of the online national pandemic growth factors that took them down, but just if there's anything we can learn about how to support employee owned businesses, you know, from their bankruptcy pipe.

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. No. The last year was kind of an interesting moment for for ESOPs in Vermont ending because we kind of had the Gartner Supply example on one hand as the, you know, a company that that that went down into bankruptcy and then the VIP on the other hand, which also ended employee ownership, but in a wildly profitable way. So it kinda gives you the sort of extremes of what employee ownership can can deliver. So, you know, in in terms of things to think about in in terms of the Gartner supply example, obviously, you know, there's there's some you know, so as as the news stuff came out and I was not inside, so I have limited insight. But, you know, there's some some operational stuff. And then and then there's always kind of the one one thing with other thing for employee owned companies to understand kinda generally is this idea of the repurchase obligation where the company is consistently buying itself. And my understanding is the primary driver was some kind of operational things around the failed point of sale system implementation and some other things like that. But one thing that employee owned companies do need to sort of be very specifically, you know, careful about about planning around is is sort of having the capital for that, you know, repurchasing shares of folks as they retire as new as new folks come in. And so, you know, the the question of, like, how to sort of encourage good you know, encourage best practices on on that side of things. And that's kinda one role that we play. We have an annual conference where we bring employee owned companies together. And this year, that's actually gonna be one of our focal points as kind of a debrief of of the the of the Gartner supply situation and thinking about diversification management of of those kinds of those kinds of risks. So I think, you know, from a from a policy perspective, right, you know, employee owned companies are businesses in the market. Right? And we're always gonna have ups and downs on that front. But I think from our perspective, there's a lot of kind of education and best practices promotion that is a piece of our work. Yeah, and then I think that that that's kind of the, you know, the making sure that that both the people who are running them and the employee owners themselves are kind of clear eyed about exactly what what their risks, rewards, and, you know, everything else everything else that is involved in ownership really are.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you, Pat. We're we're gonna have to shift, but it is does raise a question of what you know, if I assume you're the resource that if the an employee ownership company was in trouble or having challenges, they would reach out and say, we are needing help here. And what can you you know, we're needing help. Well and here is the challenge. I I assume then you either direct them to the place they can get that help or you, yourself, and whoever you're involved with can help supply it.

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Yes. Yeah. We have we have a pretty big network.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Today is resources and how we're clear on our resources, how we market them, how we how we So are you that resource for them? Good gardeners?

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Yeah. We we we are often a clearing house. You know, I had I I will say I had a conversation with them a few a few years before things went went sideways to really sort of help brainstorm and connect with with kind of alternative capital sources, things like that. So we we exit know, we're an educational organization. Right? We we exist to be a resource both directly and then, you know, are connected to a lot of, you know, other national organizations, professionals, etcetera, who have a lot of that that expertise.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. Thank you so much. So you think in some, this is, in opinion, this is a a a worthy addition to our enhanced incentives and would Yes.

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's you know, again, you know, in terms of the our goal is to see more employee owners and, you know, benefiting from, you know, from the opportunity to own the places that they work. And that the you know, something like this supporting the growth of employ of employee owned companies in Vermont will would be kind of a step in the right direction.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. And there are only 35 of them in the first place.

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: Yep. Of the, and there's another so of the ESOPs, there's another about twenty twenty who are the of the smaller kind of worker co op companies. But I would imagine that'd the ESOP scale ones that'd be more likely to, access the incentive.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Great. Thank you so much. Really appreciate your time and your input. Thank you, Rick, for that additional piece of nutrition. And now we're going to move to Lyle and Heather talking about sections seven and eight in our bill. Then if we have time or event, VBSR, join us on section eight. Thank

[Matt Cropp (Executive Director, Vermont Employee Ownership Center)]: you.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you. After this Lyle and Heather, do you wanna come together? Because this is really a together you Want me to speak. Proposal. Well, pull your chair up. Just pull your chair up. And then we'll produce have your roll up together. And start as you want. Sorry. Excuse me. It's good to good to have you both back. So one of the things we're focusing on this year is identifying what resources we have for what businesses at what stage in development. As going back to our VMC. Yep. And after some discussion in this committee, this is sort of where we're we landed, which was asking the two of you, your departments together, to do what is embodied here in this section, which is basically do an inventory and identify do an inventory and then of the resources we offer and how are we currently marketing them and promoting them to the state so that people can take advantage of them. Take it away, Lyle, brother.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: Thank you for having us. Lyle Jepsen, commissioner for economic development. Always appreciate the time that you give to Apple Alex to talk about the things that are going on. We just to remind you, there and I'm thinking of the task force suggestion in Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Which is sort of the next step.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: We already are in a nation of task force right now for the convention center. And should the convention center be in. That is taking some some time, as you know. So, basically, what I think Heather and I first wanted to do or I wanted to do is to make sure that I'm clear on what it is you were looking for so that when this is, at completion, what do what do we have in hand? Mhmm. What are we then able to market out? And when we talk about marketing, to us, it's really about communication. That marketing, I think, right now is a big focus on we need more people in, say, Vermont. That is taking up a lot of time to get more people there. Our businesses need more staff. I see our marketing department through Heather's great work doing wonderful things with that. We need to communicate, which I think is what you're focusing on right now, communicate the opportunities that are out there for all stages of business at health. There's a lot out there, and I say that from my background as an RNC director in Rutland, that there is a lot out there. You just heard about some of it from Matt right now. There are lots of Matts out there.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah, we heard all morning, actually.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: Right. So you're hearing from a lot of different support systems, whether it's Wee Wee or whether it's Matt or someone else. So I wanted to make sure that I was clear on what it is you wanted to have the outcomes be. So I wrote them down in loud words, and then you can tell me if that's what you what you really said, one of which was the creation of an inventory of resources that would serve businesses at each stage of development. What are those resources that are in state of Vermont that are available right now? Two, recommendations on how to communicate those available resources. How do we make sure the small business in Irishburg and the big business in Bennington know what those resources are?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And what are we doing now to from the state's point of view, from ACCD's point of view, what are we doing now to help them access it.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: Third thing I read was report on what the state is currently doing regarding access to capital. I want to know how are we supporting their grants, loans, what's out there. Thing was opportunities for education on succession planning. You might have been talking a little bit about that with Matt, and there are other opportunities out there as well. Then the fifth thing was research investor education to high net worth individuals and what currently exists. How are we connecting the dots between people with money and businesses that need money? Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And that's, I think, more more into section eight and into the task force and how your work on an industry, what we have to offer at the moment, what are we doing? And then I think the task force is really designed to then take it, notch it up, and take it to what do we still need to do? What are the holes? And how can we what are the resources that are needed still that we aren't providing, and then the additional piece on access to capital.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: I'm not gonna throw Nick Gremling under the bus, but I did not introduce Nick Gremling.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yes. Nick is here. Nick, that's so good to have you.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: I'm gonna not throw you out to the buzz on that one. So at this point, I'd like to recommend potentially a change or a shift in what you are thinking about. My question to you is why two years? Why do we need to take two years to get information? This is a rhetorical question that we need to answer. Why do we wanna take two years to get an answer to a question where I think, if I understand the assignment correctly, we can go back with our team and we can put together the answers that we're looking for.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Actually, understanding, think we had wanted to to continue as needed, but I'm not sure that that's you know, we could that deadline is something we could chat about, but I think our thoughts were that it might need to continue to work. And it was your conference committee, you're done by the end of this year, I believe. That right? The convention center work gets done by the end of this year. Good

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: to know. My thought also is the amount of time that it takes for everyone to come together in all of those meetings. And my thought is, if you allow me to be so bold, is to reassign this to our department, allow us to go out and bring back to you at a point specific that report you're looking for. Answering those five questions that and we what I would do is I would send those questions to you, vet, make sure I've got the right questions.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Well, we'd have them in in the Right. We'd be you to do this, like, which is great.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: And I I guess what I'm suggesting is that the charge would be in the absence of bringing together all of the different players, all of whom are important, but all who probably have other things to do, and maybe you would like to see this report, you would like to see this report, and then decide, do you need a task force? Do you need to now spend time doing that part? If not, great. Because as an former RDC director, I want something like what Nick has in his hands right now. And you can explain it a little bit better too. I think, if I'm not wrong, this is closer to what you were interested in and what we talked about at the Dempsey Conference. And you're gonna see an Aman here from distant past, but this walks you through, and some of these places are not currently in existence. There are others that are now in existence, but you want a living document that's on a website that points people in the direction that they can go.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: Correct.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: Then you want us to

[Nick Grimley (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: So I can interject, give you some background. Want to introduce yourself. Deputy Commissioner Nick Gremling, Department of Economic Development. Former Deputy Secretary Ted Brady and I went through this exercise, several years ago and put together this graphical representation of for the entrepreneurial ecosystem. So, when I say that, I'm talking more about the startup ecosystem. And I think that we could go through and do something, a similar exercise, go a little bit more in-depth and, you know, produce something that is applicable to both those scalable start ups and then sort of the main street type of businesses that sort of require different things.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So we heard this morning from micro business. So from my, I think from our committee's point of view, really super startup micro business right up to a mature company.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Because even mature companies need help.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: When we had a completely different conversation with a cybersecurity expert in government operations yesterday, and he said something that I think is a really valuable I'm gonna use that a lot, I think, from now on, which is you want a system that when it fails, it failed loudly. So just that if you say you are the exhaustive clearinghouse for this stuff, people can say, hey, then there's a real gap. Or then, why aren't I on here because I'm doing this work? And that's how you become a clearinghouse is you're responsive when there is a missing link. That's all we need. Yep. It's just a system that fails loudly and says, We should integrate this better, or, We should have BT POC on here because this is ten years old or whatever. You know? So, thank you. I I I don't wanna set up a group to fail to to bring together some exhaustive list because that's an impossible task. But just to create a system that says, you know, here's where you should be seen, and if you're not, that's a failure on our part,

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: and we'll now bring you in, whatever.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: The opportunity to opt in.

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Exactly.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And they

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: know they're missing and they should

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: be Exactly. Well, I I think if you were willing to take that on and we had a dead you know, we had a report, you know, the the conclusion of this piece of work that you're suggesting by this December so that we can review it, support it, and help add whatever is needed. I think that would be very exciting, and I think we would all appreciate that. I also think we would appreciate Heather's brilliance being added to this work because I think what you know, we heard Wee Wee and and Nicole Kilgoren and, you know, less with the cast because they don't have the budget to be marketing what they do for people. But we definitely heard Wee Wee and Nicole talking about their outreach and all of that rolling together, all of us honoring the different resources and different skills and talents and expertise that are brought to the table to help our businesses. This is one of the best ways we can actually These are our tools. Our resources are our tools for our businesses. And if we can market them better and if we can promote them better and if we can be clearer on what they are so we don't have any so we don't have duplication, that would be great. And if you guys want the first step of that, I think that is a great idea. And I have all I just me, one member of this committee would welcome that and ask you to think about how we would redo this section with Rick Segal, who sadly had to leave, but he'll be back at noon. But if we could, Nick and well, and Heather, if we could work with Rick to refashion this to reflect your generous offer, I think that would be great.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: Not knowing a lot about the legislative process, but everybody else does, would we reach out

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: to Rick? What's that process?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I'll have Rick. Yes. I think we'll put you in touch together. I'll put an email together that includes you all. Can

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I I'll

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: be at the end?

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: Jump in before I have the time.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Is that okay? Yeah.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: Go to the Think Vermont site.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It's a great site.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: Great site. There are other great sites. The Secretary of State's office has a great site. Our site's pretty good, but it's not as flashy as

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Oh, said. It's paid. Which takes money.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: So, at any rate, the information's there. We need to put it in process where people access it, can opt in and out as things change.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And design it so that people can.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: So, if that's my cue to jump in, for the record, Heather Peloprocial Department Choice and Marketing, I think a lot of what Commissioner Jeffs is saying is that we have some information, so maybe, you know, as we've talked about, maybe we in the legislation versus what we know already. I did just want to kind of level set a little bit in terms of like the roles department boards and marketing. I really see our role as we're bringing in the customers to all these businesses. We really have an outward facing role. We're bringing, we're talking about recruiting new investments and so forth. When it comes to internal state communications, that's really more the role of the Chief Communications Office, which we now have, so I'm not sure how, so yes, the Chief Marketing Office. Where is that? Is that digital services? No. So the Chief Marketing Office has two employees who have historically been in the And agency that's Chief Performance. No. So And is that

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: still a Chief Marketing.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: So, Marketing Office. Those two positions are now co located with the agency administration, with our Chief Communications Officer, Rebecca Kelly, has taken on that new role.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Oh, okay.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: So the idea here is by co locating those two positions with Chief Communications Officer, their charge is really much more about internal communications on teams, you know, what is, how does state government work most effectively in the communications space. So, I just want to kind of, like I said, level set in terms of like, don't, we, as far as tourism marketing, don't work with other agencies to market their services to Vermont. It's just not There what we are resources within the state that this team would do that. Now, they don't have a budget to go out and perhaps do a bunch of paid marketing. I'm just thinking about it. I think that's why Commissioner and I are thinking this is really about activating networks to make sure that those businesses in their communities, like where are they gonna reach out to help? We've always wanna make sure that the state government is providing information in the most clearest way possible, right? But we also know that there's no right front door, so they may be talking to their chief of commerce, they may be talking to their downtown director, they might be talking to their RDC, maybe they don't know that their RDC's there, but we really see that the communications challenge here is really making sure that all the partners we have throughout the state, which might be represented on a graphic like this, really understand where they can find the information that exists. So, that's really the comment I just wanted to make sure that folks understood where this might be coming from.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: One thing just to

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: throw out that I would have to think about, that is various people who use these resources, how will they get information? How will they be able to ask a question that they have formulated in their minds rather than the kind of question that you prepare for or set up a data set to receive. This is a typical, really automated information system, or artificial intelligence system in which a person who needs to know something can ask a question in a language that they speak, and whatever system you set up can understand it.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It ends a basic user experience question. Where are they? Where can

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: I get information about a tax return?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Senator Brock How can I start a new business?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Senator Brock made me ask AI one of my pet issue questions before you got here, which is how do you put on an Indian wedding in Vermont? And it spits out Boston, New York Right. New Jersey, get a priest from I mean, which that's fair. I'm working on having a priest in Vermont. But, you know, work with a wedding venue that will accept out of state Indian decorators and things like it I'll I'll share. And I and then I said, find me Vermont based vendors.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Not a

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: A couple stove venue, like, topnot, you know, just because they can they can do a multi day event, which thank you, Chad. Yes. It did win as a multi day event. But other than that, it's it's just a small example. But, like, I know you know this. I know this is what drives you. It's just what is the user experience and what how do we get what most small businesses in Vermont are asking for is to be showcased on a national stage or to be in someone's inbox when there is a opportunity, when someone Googles Indian wedding in Vermont. Now I should get a bunch of Hena people, like, somewhere in Northern England would be nice, you know? And the problem is we might have other bills, frankly, the privacy bill that get in the way of how we make sure businesses are seen out of state.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: While we have a team trying to make sure that we hand market out of state. So I just wanna make the clear link that it takes us not creating gaps in the business continuum as because this is where people are looking

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: for And it has to

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: be in a language that everybody can understand as opposed to the language that we structure in state government that nobody understands. Right. You try to find something. You can't find anything.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Nobody's gonna go to a government website.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So that's Well, actually, that's not true. People go to government websites. Well, they're not because people are looking. You are our our economic development office, and you are ACCD. So one of the, I think, questions you need we need to tackle is where are people going? Looking working with all the resources, many of whom have testified in this committee, and all of them say it's a challenge. You know, everyone comes to us in a different capacity. They aren't necessarily going to where we would want them to go naturally. I mean, first crime I'd look at is your website.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Gen z doesn't even use Google. They use TikTok. So What? Like, whatever We're not even in the same universe.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Think I think if you are willing to start on this, we will then also get Rebecca Kelly in. Is that correct? Is that what we should be

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: Well, I think when we think about the language, which we we can work through with Rin. Right. I can certainly speak with Rebecca and try to figure out what makes the most sense.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. Because one of the challenges that they all everyone has spoken about is people not knowing who to turn to and where to go for specific needs.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: And I would just hope that everyone recognize this is a complicated Yeah. Communicating with media landscape. Right. We aren't gonna replace Google or, you know, be able to know what generative AI is gonna produce for any question that we lay out there. But can part of the technical assistance that businesses have access to is about their digital presence so that the information that they do have can be picked up by generative AI is really where the potential lies. Not that we are gonna capture all that information everywhere. So, you know, we have business.vermont.gov. It's a great state, a great start on how to start a business. Know, might be able to get legal information. Here's where you might be able get financing information. You know, we can certainly build on a model like that. I think what we're saying is that a lot of it exists, but I just wanna, I would hope there's a recognition that we can help guide folks as to how they can make sure that their information is easily available in the world we we live in, and also make sure that what the state touches is in a place that is coordinated and that we are activating our communication networks so that they know where to find that. To the point Ray's also about gaps, it's like, yes, what are the gaps? Is feedback there loop that tells us, thank you for this information you put together, I still can't find x. Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Where should I go? And have the resource people. Yeah. Anyway. Yes. And would you also because we have touched on this in other ways. Joan and I have talked about this for a long time, the access to capital piece, which would be you would take on as well and

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: do an initial That was one of your questions, which was

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: One of our big needs that business comes to us time and time again saying, help us.

[Nick Grimley (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: I was very involved in writing the SSBCI plan for Saint Vermont and so I have a

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: good good handle on you.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I will, today put together an email of the three of you with Rick and see what we could go forward for our next draft with new language on this. That would be in a deadline of maybe November or December so that we can work on a next session.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: I wrote down December 15. Did that work for you? November what? It was on December 5. Oh, November?

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: No. I I'd

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: say December 1 just so Bills can get start getting drafted and worked on.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, but the usually, we get to December 15 for

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the first year, the by and end. But I'm also thinking what's good for all of you in terms of your December, it might be good to get it over with.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I know, but we won't know who's coming to the those That is true. Till December 5. Okay. Yeah. September 5. That's usually why we get that

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: would be great. Know, we decide?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: What? What do just decide? December 15. But something's happening. It it is the beginning of a new biennium, and there will be new players. There's no question. The if if if we're agreed on that, I would love to because I have a special request from David Weeks. Special request from David Weeks is he would love to see Heather's work that we don't see. And I'm just wondering if we could pull that up quickly with either Thomas or Kiara.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Can I submit that I think she needs to be prepared for this? Oh no, he was old. What is the Vermont brand? If go to outside Vermont looking in, what do they see?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And we could go to Think Vermont quickly, don't you think? And show David a little bit of that.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: Well, guess there's two parts of that, which would be, are you thinking in terms of relocation and recruitment, or are you thinking in terms of visitation? Because

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: those I are gonna be think both. I think yes and that.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: Right. So the thing vermont.com site is our how we're facing. Here's our information about how we quote unquote sell the state for town attraction

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Just and got it. Can we put it

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: And vermontvacation.com is for visitation. So now if you're asking for me to, like I can certainly provide you links on, you know, what we have out in the market for our winter campaign, if you're thinking about things like that. Let's do

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: winter campaign. I'm not trying to So

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: you're not gonna see people.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. You're so this is Saint Vermont.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: This is Saint Vermont, and I guess I would just say, like, so there's to me, there's a lot of levels to your question. So one is we have we use a lot of different tactics to get people to think about Vermont, whether that's for relocation or if they think about visiting here. Right? All those tactics will lead up to this is where they will land as like a call to action. But there are it's not gonna show like if you wanna see, like, how people might get here, that's a whole different level of English. That's Once they're here, let's just

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: say you're ruling a business or relocation, which would you like to see first, David?

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Tourism..csv.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: Oh, so that's a different website. That's Vermont Vacation. I clicked on Find a Job. Okay.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We checked out what's good because that's everyone wants all the sites.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: And really, you know, with the Think Vermont site, really what the major call to action there is for people to connect with the Vermonters. So that is like our, you've raised your hand, you're interested in moving here, that's how we connect folks with our pro grantees. You know, I understand who parking from this morning, are one of our grantees. So when people, right, so this is our visitation site. This is Oh, that's back and forth to be

[Nick Grimley (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: able call.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No, that's okay. So, we're, because for David, that's what David asked for. And Kiara has pulled it up for him. Where do we go now? Well, it

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: depends what you're interested in. What about, like, about, like, real estate? Like Well What about if you need us call? We're business. Oh, sorry. I'm on the Think list.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I know. Well, what's where we all? I think this is all comes out of Think Vermont.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: No. There are two there are two very separate properties that are have a different message and a different goal. So for while vacation is about folks who wanna come here on vacation. They wanna come here for a season. They're visiting their friends and family, they're coming in here in summer to do whatever it may be. Our content is organized, I mean, as you can kind of see, like, do want to do with them? There's like these are different activities. Where do you want to go? We have our different regions and what sets them apart. You know, here's our events calendar, here's our business directory, this is how you might plan your trip, these are itinerary suggestions and so forth that we help, that's one way we help to get people to different parts of the state So that they may not have heard that's what Vermont vacation is. Think Vermont is really primarily talent attractions slash, you know, we've often said like it's people who live in Vermont, right, because they see themselves here as a lifestyle. So that's why the primary driver there is to make sure that we can get them further down the funnel, but all of our work

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: is getting people further down the funnel.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It's just funny it says find a job when the challenge people have is find a home.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: Well, there are challenges. We focus on the things that we can be most effective and helpful when if if what I would say is, like, hopefully, people will find their way to the connect with a radical form. They find themselves in the growth branch pipeline. They're connected with a local Right. Representative who can then help them answer that question. But maybe

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: maybe there be a section on first generation home buying offer. I mean, it says live in Vermont. And so, I mean, there are housing resources that the state have that might interest.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: And that's where the grantees come in to be able to provide that one on one service so that we're not, we're trying to focus on making sure, because everyone has a slightly different question. So we wanna make sure that they get the answer that really aligns best with their one particular need for their family or so forth. And, Lalo, you had something you wanted to introduce.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: I don't often go to that site because I'm here.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So you wanna go to Saint Vermont, the

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: landing page before you go over to the

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That's not this?

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: That's Saint Vermont. Yeah.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: Do you already go which site am I looking for? Grow. I want to go to the Grow that's not here. Right.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: So this is the thing for Mount site. This is where people will get connected to the. Yes.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: So this is an extremely valuable site to the regions going back to my RDC days. We would get emails from people through this, and then we would answer those very specific questions. Right. And then the RDC where I came from has a link where you can go to a job site for local jobs. And then we also connected them with realtors. And so it was that personal touch.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. This It follows up on this.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: And then And it has to happen quickly. And they say this that needs to happen quickly. So they give us money to make sure it happens quickly.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Got it. Got it. I'm just saying, David, David, what would you like to see? Schools.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Colleges. As an example. But so this is these are good websites. K? I'm just curious, k, what else? Is it you know, to somebody's point earlier, TikTok. Or, you know, where are you? She's everywhere.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well That's what I'm asking.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: To be on TikTok, so just so you know.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So States is not a lot of them, TikTok. No. True. So The state

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: government the state agency, they're not allowed to have a presence on TikTok. That's a question for ADS, if you want to know why that is or why that isn't. So, that's just one rule.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: ADS is within our, that's our rule? Yeah. So

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: your question was about so if yes. Information on living and working. So, a lot of what we try to do with Bank of Vermont or a lot of state websites is that it's impossible to be the one source of information. What we are trying to do is make sure that we can help people find the information they need. Right? So we can then what's the agency of education who is much better equipped say these are all the schools, they have the capacity to update it. The last thing we wanna do is provide, try to provide an exhaustive list of something that we have no ability to update them as outdated before we even know it. So I would just say that our approach is to make sure people can find that information.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Okay, I'm just wondering because you said labor but Okay, not so I'm just, you kind of threw this out as,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: without any real time, I just thought you you asked for Where

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: else do you market? Just the website? Are you in airports? Are you in subways? I don't know what the

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: answer is. Yeah. We don't

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: get to see this

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: much. Don't get to, I understand that's a frustration for people. They don't see what we do because you're not the target market. No. You know, the All over the place. No. No. I'm happy to answer. So if you were driving around Boston right now, you would see billboards for Vermont to come on vacation. We did an installation in the New York City market this this is and they do billboards. Yeah. We did an installation in New York this spring on the subways about, thanks, Vermont. We have a digital presence on other social media platforms through Meta and LinkedIn in terms of digital ads. You know, we also do a paid search. You know, we have videos out there that get people to us. So we have paid tactics for both both sort of directions, both on the visitation side and on the rehabilitation side. That kind of information was in the presentation I think we got cut short when I was here a few weeks ago, we can certainly talk about that more. But you'll see in there a little

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: bit more about how we are getting people to this site. So, that too. Follow-up on that. We will have you back because I think it would be great for us to see what others see, which we don't. Sure. And so, if we could have you back for half an hour, twenty minutes, half an hour, what do you need?

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: Half an hour would be great. Okay, great. We might seem to run out of time, I'll

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: that just one thing, it's rather than looking at what you have, what I would look at is what do people ask? What would I, as someone who is in one of these categories, or in no category, might ask? Just as we said, what do I do? How could I find places to have an Indian wedding in Vermont? Ask a lot of questions like that that people may ask who aren't getting to places that we want them to get to, and determine whether or not you're able to get answers to those questions, because those are the things we're really looking for at the work that you're both gonna be doing

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: to help us get questions answered. And that's exactly why we created the Grow program, so that those questions could be answered because every question's different and every answer's different. So, I think it's been quite successful and I'd be happy to have, I mean, Lyle has been a recipient, but we could bring in other recipients of grantees, they could tell you more about how they manage that. And Right. So one fundamental

[Nick Grimley (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: thing that we heard

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: from folks who testified before you today is that they are serving scores of people throughout Vermont, more than scores of people who have questions. Where do I go to get answers to tax questions for my new small businesses?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right, and legal services. Those are the questions. Financing, all those things. There's thousands of them,

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: for both to live, to work, to get help, to solve a problem, whatever. That's really the real promise of AI for the future.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It sounds like we should

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: have the Chief Marketing Communications. I'd ask Debbie Rebecca and Catherine together perhaps at some point.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: Sure, and I'm happy to do that. I just wanna also clarify that, yes, we have two communications officers. As you can imagine, there is not the capacity that you think there might be out there to take on every issue without funding for additional support to be able to do all the things all the things that we wanna do. So and

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: to that end, we need to check further about that with this re reenvisioning of these sections. So to that, I'm gonna go to Chelsea on the screen, who's the executive director of Vermont Businesses for Social Responsibility, talking about a section section a, the task force, which is about to be rethought because we've had a very generous offer from the office of economic development, the department of economic development, to actually take this inside and come back to us doing all the work that is that we are asking for in both section seven and eight and take take a first well, first take a run at it and come back to us having consulted with stakeholders. So, I mean, I think is very clear that we would want all the stakeholders including you. Because I think that's what you wanna say. Chelsea, don't wanna us what you are wanting to you're wanting to be included.

[Chelsea Bardot Lewis (Executive Director, Vermont Businesses for Social Responsibility)]: I we are here to serve commissioner Jepsen, and I will say I'm sitting here in Rutland at Heritage Family Credit Union. So very

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: introduce yourself.

[Chelsea Bardot Lewis (Executive Director, Vermont Businesses for Social Responsibility)]: Yeah. Chelsea Bardo Lewis, executive director of EBSR. And as you see in the written testimony, we work with many small businesses. It will not be any surprise to you based on the testimony you've already heard today that small businesses, we have about 60% of our members are fewer than 15 employees. And these are the businesses that are being squeezed the most in terms of health care costs, impacts of tariffs, impacts of wage inflation. And they're also being asked to do the most in terms of stepping up in their communities, being on the local chamber boards, being on the local rotary clubs, and really on the front lines are protecting democracy in our state and and they and they need support. So the way that VBSR provides that is a few ways and we've spoken about this. I won't say it again. But really just to the point that Heather was making, Commissioner Pelham, is that, you know, since since Heather and I worked together, years and years ago, people have been talking about the need for a database and where's the one stop shop. And yes, absolutely AI offers like new opportunities to do that. And there's always going to be the need for human connection and peer to peer resource sharing. And that is what VBSR provides. So I think standing up the organizations that are represented in this bill, we fully support, the funding requests that are in this bill for our partners and support adding VTPOC as an incredible resource, for BIPOC owned businesses. And we are here to support no funding requests from us. There if we can play a role to support your work Commissioner and Jepsen, we are here to do that. But but really wanted to stand up again that the need for this type of work to support small businesses to support their business resilience. Similar to our climate ready Vermont program, we see that continuation planning is incredibly important for small businesses to support access to capital. There is no shortage of deal flow. Don't let anyone tell you differently. It's just getting the right capital to the creative entrepreneurs and business owners across our state. And then of course succession planning is a huge need that we hear across our membership, and you will see more programming from us forthcoming.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you, Chelsea. And I would hope, obviously, the all the stakeholders we identified and then some would be welcome as you do this work as commissioner Chittenden. Chittenden

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: Because they do good work. They need to be

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: They do great work. And I think we're very proud of the work of our partners in these resourcing group businesses. So so Could

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: I could I add one thing about the GrowGrant? Because I'm always talking about the GrowGrant, how important it is. You ask about people that are asking questions. The questions that we received when I was in Rutland through this process included things like education, included things like housing, But almost the number one question was, is it safe where you are in the state of Vermont? And it was coming from the BIPOC community, and it was coming from people who live in other states where they do not feel safe, Whether it's politically or because of race or because of sexual orientation, they do not get sick. And they are Vermont is a bit of a magnet because of that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: They're seeing because it's the second or first safest state in the country.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: It feels like Vermont is the place to go.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And they just need to find a place to

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: They need a safe place to find a house or an apartment or whatever.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: And I can add that actually, on our visitation research, ask about Vermont Brands, safety also is scenic beauty, outdoor recreation, and safety. And that's thankfully what people associate with their mom, that's why they come here, whether it's for the weekends or.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So the governor's watching, we rate number one in health.

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: The governor's watching, he needs to hear us say public safety, affordability, education, and housing. Those are his priorities.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We're very clear on it. I hope we're not saying hearing that. Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. Well, I think this has been terrific. Thank you very much. It's been thank you very much for stepping I mean, we're out of season for stepping up for the play, but thank you for stepping up for the play. Maybe and and my husband's view, there's no season than this baseball season. So thank you very much. This is just terrific. And we'll look forward to next draft. We're about Sebring Segal for our good

[Lyle Jepson (Commissioner, Department of Economic Development, ACCD)]: right. Thank you very

[Rick Siegel (Legislative Counsel, VT Office of Legislative Counsel)]: much.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: You very much. We'll have you back in soon.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: Thank you. Thank you. We will schedule you soon. Okay. That's okay. Great. And I'm happy to provide And Rebecca

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Kelly, let's figure that out too.

[Heather Pelham (Commissioner, Department of Tourism & Marketing; Chief Marketing Officer, State of Vermont)]: Sure. I think

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Great. Agree with Let go on glide and go into agenda planning. Yeah. Thank you very much.