Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Good morning. Welcome back to Southern Economic Development Housing and General Affairs. It is Friday. Well, that's a formal Friday, and it is very cold. And we are here. It is housing day. It's Friday. And we oh, sorry. I'm just like No. No. Seriously. My mom is

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: very prominent in the camera, so

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I'm gonna grab. It's not you. So today is a holiday, and we're going to turn to different housing partner, our partners in our towns where so much of this work is done. And so we are turning to Vermont League of Cities and Towns to talk about what their priorities are, how we can help further understand some of the barriers, for towns, opting into tier one a and one b, which we because we're because we're gonna hope to be addressing that in, other places. So take it away, Josh and Sam. We welcome you.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Great. Thank you. So Josh Hanford, director of intergovernmental relations at Mont League of Cities and Towns.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Sorry. Samantha Sheehan, Municipal Policy and Advocacy Specialist, also at Potomac League of Cities and Towns.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: And we do have a presentation to share with you. Right. I am gonna just kick things off at a high level, and Samantha's gonna run through more of the details. We're here to share with you our housing priorities, some thoughts on the Act 181 implementation, specifically addressing some of the concerns we've heard about the tier one areas and whether municipalities are opting in or not and what those constraints are, and show you some practical realities of the tier one A mapping process that is going on now, Yeah. And sort of where we are in that process, because I think there's a little confusion of of what actually is available to municipalities right now and what's not.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: I'm usually much quicker on the job.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Cool, bro. Off to a slow start. And forgive me if I'm wincing. I'm having a big sciatic nerve attack on my left side, so I'm working it hard here to stay pleasant.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: You got Do you like the figure four?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: You know where you put your your

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: knee up?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Oh, no. I don't know that. I'm gonna do that.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: You want my little got a

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Chan holster. Do exercise. Yeah. Well, I

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: had to do a of pregnancy. Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. This is fine.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Take my holster.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Okay. No worries. I I will I will just proceed.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I just got

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: So the first few slides, we we wanna move through rather quickly because we wanna really get into the heart of this. We know you've been discussing a lot, but, you know, obviously, we still have housing as a top priority from the league. Housing availability and affordability is a top issue when we survey our municipalities, and we really wanna support the creation of housing that municipalities need. They've envisioned, they've planned for, and they allow and what goes on. There's been a lot of work for years on this.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So Not that you know anything about this.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Nothing. So we have seven priorities here. We don't like I said, I don't wanna spend a ton of time off time on them, but we continue to ask for sort of more authority around short term rentals. I think it it's it's people have learned we have quite a bit authority to regulate. If you read the newspaper, we don't have authority as to raise revenue to address those impacts and put it back in our community other than the local 1% option tax on rooms and meals. So that's been a consistent ask for us.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Can we talk I mean, how long do we have?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We captivate Wait. Sadly. I hope we have about about half an hour from now. Okay. But we will return We can come back.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: And I'd love to come back anytime.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And the short term rent to pay is that's also a finance issue, and I think that is a big subject for this

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: What I am doing now.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And and you know that my my other philosophy is that I'm not always I think municipalities should absolutely regulate short term rentals. My concern is vacancy. Right? So I wanna look at being able to raise fees on second homes that remain vacant and being able to give certain amounts back to communities that have a high threshold of vacant homes year round. So anyway, it just

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I don't I don't like if you rent something for a month to somebody, that's still good. Yeah. It's like And you're

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: you're hitting exactly on one of the one of the issues. Yeah. If if the home is a second home anyways, it better have someone in it.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: He did. Right.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Spending money in

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the economy.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Exactly. Think this

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: is something a subject for us to return to.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: To to to add to our great success last year in SHIP, this is not part of SHIP, but some projects may be smaller scale where we had a tax stabilization authority that was the statewide property tax. We could developers could leverage that into their deals and pull off smaller deals in a in a easier way. There's a a bill on the house side that's attempting to implement something this year around this, the rule housing initiative bill.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yes. Yes.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Each seven seventy five.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We could delegate that to the

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: house. Exactly.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: That's support it and we'll have that come back in April. And, hopefully, if it makes

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: it, it'll come here. Yep. Exactly. Well, more peaceful. Yeah.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: We continue to hear the brownfield cleanup or redevelopment needing money for that. There are challenges with the timeline. No question. And I think the report that was put out, unfortunately, doesn't address a lot of those from DC. Despite the long arduous process, it's still very popular. And if you wanna do infill development in our urban areas, we need to clean them up. It's just a fact.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you. So as you know, it was not in the governor's budget.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So we are it is in our bill, and we would love to have you you know, your advocate advocacy for that. At this very moment, it's helpful for that bill too.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Yes. Absolutely.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Can I ask so in this do you you don't have the downtown and village tax credit?

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: We support those, but they're not in this very short list. Absolutely. Yeah. Those we

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And we have Yeah. And we have

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: And we done.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah. Because I'm hearing the downtown village tax credits, they'll be a lot of fighting over the areas that need to do strip repair versus wanna do, like, historic. And I just wish we could get out of that fight.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Like, we should get out

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: of fight. We've also said house general asked us to talk about our thoughts on what housing policies and programs have worked Yep. Over the last few years and which ones haven't. And in that testimony, we talked about the tax credit program. Yeah. We talked about DHIP. But specifically, tax credit program, the one year that they allowed for it to be used in neighborhood areas Yeah. We think should be returned. Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, it'll be in the new designation.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: So Yeah. Well, it I think this is a good conceptual bridge for the next part of our There's a big gap between three and four.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Yes. So the next part is what we're here to talk to you the most about. And Uh-huh. Don't I just turn it over because we're gonna jump right into it. What these four areas will be further explained. Well, maybe we won't get into the agriculture unless you ask, but, that's an issue as a result of the court case. The court case that changed the municipal, zoning and agriculture Yeah. Been in place for thirty, forty years. Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Got it.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: So we have to react to that. There is legislation, but we don't plan to talk to you about that here too.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And if there's legislation moving on it outside of this committee, we can we can either coordinate that. If it's senate discussion Your colleagues we can behind. Yeah. Okay.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I will say, I think that one of the lessons from there is it's really hard to have separate regulations in municipalities for cannabis and for agriculture. We're not talking about cannabis. But I but I really whatever you propose, I'd like it to work for cannabis too because agriculture went down with cannabis in this. That that correct. And I think we're gonna have to make the regulation work for both.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: It it is simplest as you could see. All of what we're asking for is in the areas that end up being active with the exempt, the tier one municipalities. You need to have standard regulations

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Yes.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: All businesses because whose call involves in strives? The states no longer dealing with the menus. Municipalities have to. Right. They wanna treat all businesses, whether they be agriculture, cannabis, a dry cleaner, a childcare center that are next door to each other on tight lots, have to have fair regulations so they know how to invest their money and keep people safe.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And do you know the cannabis bill has letting municipalities do far more regulate time, place, and manner of cannabis retailers as well because that's been a big So

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: let's talk about the Act 181 implementation, tier one, tier three, road rule, and that's what the base the the majority of our presentation's about.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: If

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: I wanna just wanna underscore quickly before we move on that these investments that we're talking about, the downcome tax credits, BHIIP, Brownfield, these are all housing programs that work and really work in already developed areas. So keep that in mind because when we're talking about tier one, we are talking about new housing and home construction in already developed areas are already most densely populated mixed use districts in the state. And so the alignment of those investments with the strategy created by Act 181 is really essential to move forward as we go into living under Act one eighty one.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: More, and they are those two particular provisions, our also economic development Yes. Tools are in our economic development bill. So we accept your advocacy for those right now.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Quickly, before we dive into Okay, two fifty two. Venus Valley. It might be. We got a new one in Colchester, right?

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Well, that's a village.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Can't even have.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Yeah, this town's Essex City.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Yeah. Right, so, so of our members, 73% have a population under 2,500, and most of those municipalities are governed primarily by volunteers or completely by volunteers. We have 200 municipalities with I actually want to say I got these figures maybe four months ago from DHCV. They are changing in real time as the regional plans move forward. But currently, going into Act one eighty one, we had 200 municipalities with an adopted duly adopted municipal plan, a hundred and forty two ten acre towns that had adopted zoning and permanent bylaw, and about 43 municipalities currently permitted to operate municipal water and sewer, both.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So are we still at, like, 30 something percent of municipalities don't have zoning and bylaws? It's it's over a 100. It's more than that. Okay. Yeah. It's okay.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: So I think that is evolving. And many that have zoning but not subdivision bylaws

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. Are working through that on their path.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I just wanna make sure whatever we do about zoning this year, we're we're focused on helping those communities, not just, like, print out things up like that. We do too.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Right. Okay. So I also wanna quickly I know you know this. I think everyone worked on this bill in this room, but I'll remind you that Act one eighty one creates a location based jurisdiction for the purpose of requiring Act two fifty permit review or not. It creates three tiers, but really it's four, and then there's a fifth location based jurisdictional trigger, which is the road rule. So there's one A, total Act two fifty exemption for all types of development, one B, partial exemption for housing up to 50 units. Tier two, in theory, applies Act two fifty abnormal, including the five-five-ten rule. Do support a repeal of the five five ten rule. That would be at least one good thing

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: to do in tier two. I need tier two to be useful and make sense and not just be like, why do we have

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: the category? In the context of the road rule, it becomes less and less rational. The LTT's perspective for a long time Yeah. That that the five by 10 rule was not a rational application of jurisdiction. Yes. Minus what? But in the context of the road rule, take the bets in July, it's, like, really, what are

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: we doing?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Right. So do people understand that? Like, have we had a

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: in caucus? Okay. Okay. Yeah. So The rural caucus gets it. What is their bill? Okay. They don't have the five five x 10 rule in their bill.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: They don't have the Right. Appeal of that?

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: No. But if that gets it was taken up,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: and the good news is it was taken up yesterday in house natural.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: So and then we have tier three, which is a new okay. New jurisdiction, tier three. The concept there is to protect development from happening in particular protected natural resources of the state. And then you have the road rule, which will take effect in July unless there is legislative intervention in this session. And that says that all development 800 feet or more from a road or 2,000 feet of combined driveway and road would trigger full Act two fifty permit review for that development. And, again, before I move on, basically tier one is mapped by the RPCs over here. Tier three is mapped by the LERB, the state body and authority over here. Tier two is what left, and the rogue rule applies everywhere except for one a.

[John Morley (Guest, Resolution Proponent)]: Or one.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Can we go back to rogue rule for a second? Yes. Oops. Sorry.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Didn't I'm trying to make sure I Oh.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Didn't we I don't know what you're talking. There we go.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Didn't we say 800 feet versus, like, 1,200 feet?

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: 2,000 miles away. 2,000 miles we which there's a lot we I'm gonna move on. We're just have lot of other road signs.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Because there's because

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: there's a lot of people in now.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: It's gonna be in effect before maps for most of the state are out. There's a lot of reasons why these things haven't lined up.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: I I have not heard from a zoning administer administrator in the state that feels like they know what a road is. As far as that Right. For applying this Is

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: 800 feet straight? Is it Perseatriate fish? Is it

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: yeah. Is it straight? Because if you build 800 feet like this Right. And not 800 feet like this. If you build eight

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm writing this down.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: If you build 800 Yeah. In this shape, Mhmm. That's 800 feet is here, and then this could quickly become 2,000 feet, but this So As you know, this

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: is not technically our jurisdiction. Right. I I think we're open to to support thoughtful changes, but this we have to push really hard, and I assume you have also presented in natural.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Not yet. Am am very happy. No. Will demonstrate why this will quickly become a concern of this committee. Here's one of the reasons. Act two fifty creates the LERP, it directs and authorizes the LERP to do a lot of work, which they've been working really hard on. One of the things that it authorizes and directs them to do is to define the word development. I remember this. So in tier three, this new sweeping location based jurisdiction where Act two fifty will be applied, the LERB shall define what development is subject to Act two fifty review. Currently, the draft rule, emphasis on draft, says improvements to existing home and structures that are larger than 200 square feet or more than 50 feet from the existing structure. Sheds, garages, ADUs, equipment sheds, decks. We could go on. You could go on and on. Dog house. Yeah. Dog house. But it would not be a very nice garage that was 200 square feet, right? So construction of new wastewater treatment and drinking water systems, that includes septics and wells, which are of course permitted by the Department of Environmental New homes and structures of all types, commercial, mixed use, affordable, single family, multi family. Septic? You said septic. Yeah, septic and well. Yeah, well it's drinking water. This is a big one for us. Mean, our members want homes to be built and improved and maintained, but also municipalities build roads and public utilities. So, this would say that in the tier three area, which includes roads, I'll explain that soon, improvements or construction of transportation facilities. It's actually now 10 feet, I think, the most recent draft. So basically a rock line ditched along a municipal road could require an Act two fifty permit if it's in a tier three habitat. Then trails, although we're expecting trails to be exempted in the new version of the draft based on the most recent discussions.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Question. Yes. Have you I assume you have testified Department of Warburg as they were developing this draft. We've commented

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Josh is on the tier three working and we provide comment because a lot we provided a lot of comment.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Who's leading the tier three working group? Alice Weingen.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Okay. Yeah. Who's been responsive. Yeah. Working very hard. Yeah. His initial proposals were actually allowed a single family home to be built, but the rest of the commissioners moved it down to this 200 square feet. So, like, there's been a back and forth from the LRRB, you know, in in their interpretation of of what their mission is and what this legislation does that we think restricts them from making some common sense changes, and that's why we're asking for legislative intervention, which we'll we'll get to.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: So this is what we're asking for right now. And then I'm gonna get to the pictures. We are asking for a delay in the road rule in tier three jurisdiction. So the road rule would take effect this July. Right. We wanna push that out a year till after next session. And and we also want the tier three rule to come to the legislature in the fall and the tier three jurisdiction to not impact property owners until the following summer. And the reasons are to allow municipal bodies to see, understand and plan for these new state jurisdictional areas while they're in the regional map process, to allow homeowners and landowners time to participate in the LERB process as they draft the rule, and to allow local zoning administrators time to align their guidance and instruction to prospective permit holders with those instructions and guidance coming from the LERB. And then to allow appropriate legislative oversight between the adoption of the rule and the time that kicked effect on Vermonters, right? So that you can check next year, we can come back here a year from now and we can check is the rule fulfilling the promise and opportunity of Act 181. So now keep in mind, I've got some maps to show you that I used all examples from the Rutland RPC, which is the first region in the queue before the LERP for their approval process. And keep in mind this slide of what is what is development. Right? So you so pick in your

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: mind what your What favorite is development in tier three? In tier three. Okay. So it's not what is development for, like, everything. Mhmm.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: And so but, you know, pictures on me. A sugar shack. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Duplex. Mhmm.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah. I'm surprised Alex put forward just single family homes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Anyway No. Go. It's not It will keep it forward

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: to the Lurbus as just to let Well, you

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: put forward a de minimis exemption in square footage that would have allowed for most Would have allowed for single family homes that Word locked. Okay. Thank you.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: But that was reduced

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: to 200 square feet. Right.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Right. Right. Okay. So this is I selected Pittsford, first of all, it's lovely, and if you haven't done the drive from Middlebury to, Rutland on Route 7 to Pittsburgh, you should, especially during foliage. It's also where the Vermont State Police Academy is, a place very important to municipal officials around the state. And then, but Pittsburgh has a lot of this stuff that should make Act 181 an opportunity for

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah, right.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: So they have permanent planning and zoning and by law, they have municipal planning officials who are staffed, they have a five person select board, they have other city departments and offices, they have water and sewer, And they had before, in the before times, designated growth area. They also have

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: a police academy that needs upgrading. Yeah. That all get stuck in MAC 250?

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Yep. Okay. Yeah. So the so Pittsburgh, super cool place. This is their map that this is their the first version of their map that they worked on with the RPC. Mhmm. And you can see I put a red asterisk to the four FLU pipes that should be tier one b eligible. So it is like pink donut in the middle. And then you can also I'll point out also the orange kinda spur to the what is the direction that Southeast. That would be their transitional area. And then that big violet grayish watch, that's the police academy. That's the area where the police academy is located. The the huge one? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. It's not taking up that

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: whole area, but No. It's not, but they own

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: a lot of that land. Yeah.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: I think so. Yeah. And they have a

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: big parking lot they need to upgrade, to do training, to

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: do storm water.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Can you tell me who in Rutland County is the best witness? Devin. Devin Nearest. Devin Nearest. Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Who's been Yeah. Who's been the map lead?

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Okay. So this is the map. Remember I said tier one happens over here with the RPC, tier three happens over here with the LERB, and then the road rule is just gonna happen. So this map shows the same land area of Pittsburgh. On the left of your screen is a model

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: of the road rules. So

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: this is not exactly, although jurisdictional opinions could be involved for people who But want to develop this is a model of what, where Act two fifty regulations would be applied for development more than 800 feet from an existing road. And then on the right is the most recent draft map of the tier three. So the green, like, light like, lime green splotchy stuff that looks like a mountain, that basically is that's the headwater stream. So those are very steep surfaces that slough off a lot of storm water and rain water, and like, that's fine. We're not concerned about that. There is in Pittsburgh a tiny, tiny, tiny little pink, bright pink dot. That is a significant natural community. So, like, an endangered species of some kind that is known and mapped, also fine. No

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: problem. Right. No problem. We there is there is a question about using the word rare in tier three because endangered, whatever the next word is. Speaking. I was a natural beast who was planning me.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: I don't know.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Endangered, threatened. Yeah. But then there's rare.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: And it's like, what do we mean?

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: In the reality of being on the tier three, the only concerning resource is the habitat connector, and we'll show you why. Yep, okay. Because it literally covers where we've invested money on roads where people live. Yeah. The others are actually serving what we believe is the purpose of territory.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: My gosh.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Yeah. That one seems to

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: We're not Yeah.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Have a weird

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Really weird relationship to the road rule.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I'm gonna show you now. So see, we've been calling these the fried egg. So, like, the kind of transparent yellow with, like, an opaque yellow in the middle.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It's like a Doctor.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Seuss egg. Yeah. Yeah. Like like a Doctor. Seuss egg. So this is what's called the Habitat Connector, and it's showing in two distances which are under discussion by the LERB. One is 800 feet and one is 2,000 feet. And then what the Habitat Connector does is on this slide. So the road rule applies Act two fifty jurisdiction to new development that happens 800 feet from an existing road. The Habitat Connector, which is intended to protect migrating plants and animals in our most important forest lots, is applied to roads where the majority of land on both sides of the road has tree canopy. So this could be conserved land, it could be private land, it could be undeveloped or developed. It could have roads and then drive lights on it. But if it's a wooded, a mostly wooded lot on both sides of the road it becomes a habitat connector where Act two fifty jurisdiction would apply. So if I go back to the big map of Pittsburgh, if you look in the top right corner, that is Sugar Hollow Road. It is a very old, well developed part of Pittsburgh, an existing residential neighborhood, and that's a class two town highway that is a town road. And then you go here and we zoom in on it, and you can see the compression where the this creates an overlapping or budding at two fifty jurisdiction where you have the road rule protecting the forest block on the outside, and then the habitat connector protecting the road in the middle. And what happens now on a road like this?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So they have Is this a dirt road?

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: They're they're in, like, five five ten.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: I think it's both. Okay.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: There's no

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So this would take a new oversight for them.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Absolutely. Yes. For example

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Remember anything. All the rises on this. Sugar shock. Those

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: little carve outs are existing homes

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Right.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Properties where they, you know, sort of map spears the property that has the buffer that we would allow, that's not forested.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Right.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: You know, so it's it's rather dramatic jurisdiction. So

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm just trying to make sure I fully understand. If they are let's let's just say the municipality said, okay. But we'll we'll take over like, right? Like, there's people in different towns are used to whether or not they can just build something in their backyard and the municipality cares or not.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Right. This would also let's say

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: the municipality was doing the oversight of this, you know, then they have to create new permits to comply with Act two fifty to coordinate. To coordinate.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Not necessarily. It was a town, a town that had no planning and zoning, in one of these areas, some could just put a second home, but it could trigger Act two fifty. How We're currently winning.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. So let's not spend too much time on this because sadly, this isn't technically at the moment in our jurisdiction. Certainly want to So this this spot

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: isn't the only area. Mhmm. The town of Lortown, every one of their Every roads

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: town is gonna have this challenge. Yes.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Including state highways.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Yes. But this has a relationship to tier one.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. But wait. Just before I read that slide, are there forest, huge forest parcels on either side of that road?

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: No. You can see very clearly when you zoom in. These are existing Those are sub divided. Over. Yeah. I don't all

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the way like here. Developed on either side.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: No. This is subdivided small acre parcels with houses. Yeah. So it's already zoned for what? This is zoned low density. If you go back to here, this is zoned for rural general. Yeah. Low density residential. Exactly. Well, that's a chicken. Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Let's keep moving because we have seven more minutes. Okay. I just have to show you Moretown. Yeah.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: This would apply Act two fifty jurisdiction to the majority of class two highways in Moretown between Route 100, a state highway, and 89. So Moretown town officials have raised alarm about this, rightfully so. This would apply Act two fifty jurisdiction, single family improvements, and the creation of single family homes on basically every school bus route on the way to Harvard Union High School.

[John Morley (Guest, Resolution Proponent)]: Including Route 100.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Including Route 101 Hundred And 8. We just cannot accept this. This is in direct conflict with smart growth principles. This this area represents quite literally hundreds of millions of dollars of public investment over time.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And they're saying that this was our intent.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: They are interpreting the statutory criteria of tier three to apply in this way. Because I just

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: wanna make sure Senator Clarkson knows, like, my entire effort to try and get our committees to do joint hearings and to to hear all this information is to look back at the intent of our two major bills in this area, particularly act one eighty one, and to underscore what our intent was or was not.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. Yeah. And that we have to do that work together. And and underscore our intent to actually I know, Thomas, right after, it, to do plot hole development in smart to go back to Sam's work in smart growth areas that we all can agree are the areas we want to

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: invest in developing. Which by the way, I don't know what the water and sewer is on this in these areas, but another part of my bill is going back to the Home Act to say, we did mean where you're along the road with water and sewer, you can do quadplexes and municipal development. Which we did that. Okay. Right. And then exactly this negates that. Also, Thomas.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Thank you for this testimony. I completely agree and I share your concern. I hear you raising the alarm bells about the actual implementation of Act 181. I strongly implore you to have this debate and discussion with as much time as humanly possible with Senate Natural Resources. I think you're talking to the choir in many ways right here, and the real impact is going to be on that committee.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But we still need to understand.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I I think everybody needs to understand that everybody is assuming something else. I guess. Yeah. I think that's what you're saying. All at the end in part is that I think we assume different things and what is being

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: We have been dramatically surprised how little our communities know about tier three and impact. As soon as we tell them, they are alarmed, and we've had several workshops, and they're like, what? And while they're going

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: through, like, literally hundreds of meetings, hundreds of public meetings statewide on creating a shared vision for growth and new housing creation with the RPCs. Right. Right? So that here we are.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: RPCs aren't doing that tier three.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Right.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: So they're not talking about it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. That's the

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: point we're trying to make.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Right, right. Okay. So, here we are. I've been climbing up the hill, right, to get to one B.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: So you can see that tier three, tier two in the road rule are going to apply new sweeping new jurisdiction for the regulation of development in the vast majority of Vermont communities. Because remember, a 100 don't have zoning. 73% of our communities are population under 3,000. Right. Most communities in Vermont will not get a shot at relief from Act two fifty in a tier one a area. So for us, it comes down to one b. One b is the place where we can realize the opportunity of all the programs you work on in here, like VHIP and Downtown Tax Credits and Brownfield redevelopment and revitalization and many more. So 1B is precious. It's a precious opportunity to our towns to meet their housing targets, which the state has adopted. So currently the eligible area, this is from testimony you heard a week or two ago from BACDA, the estimated eligible area in, for 1E or 1A statewide in the draft map is 2.1 of the state land area. Right. It's important to know that that varies widely from region to region. So the whole NEK may see only 0.5% eligible for 1B. Chittenden County is carrying the load, with 11% of all Chittenden County eligible. The Rutland RPC, remember they're first in line, that's why I use Pittsburgh and Pittsburgh. They initially mapped and requested tier one eligible area for 3% of Rutland County across 27 towns, 3% altogether. As a result of the ongoing approval process with the LERB and the comments provided to Rutland RPC from the LERB, there was a 30% reduction in that eligible area. Only one town, I know your bill would change opt in to opt out.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Not our bill, but not that piece of the bonus not in the bill. It's back up now.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Opt Okay. In, opt out, fine. We're fine with that, because clearly the vast majority of towns in any eligible area are choosing to opt in. In Rutland County, one town opted out and it was for local capacity reasons. They could, they cannot currently administer the permit. So they opted out. All 20, or there's 25 other towns in Rutland eligible, with eligible area, they all opted in. Only one opted out? Only one has not opted in yet. They have a, they have an administrative issue. So, in the three maps, I just want to underscore something, this is also very premature. Yeah. Like, each town is having to warn a meeting and hold the meeting and draft a resolution and pass the resolution. And they, of course, would wait to do that until they saw their map. Right. Like, it would be crazy to say, yeah, we're gonna, like, you know, one, two, three, release it. But, like, we don't know what we're releasing from what until we see the map. But there's three that I think we have a really good idea of how it's going, and amongst those three counties, there's a roughly 85% up in rate.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: And there's different reasons. Right. There's totally different locally informed reasons amongst the towns that are not currently opting in. I just wanna say, like, like, the opt

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: in opt out fight feels a little bit like it does. It I just wanna I just wanna reward our champions who are opting in. Like, I don't need to tell people Yeah. What I'm doing right So if we could just be figuring out a way to reward people who opt in.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Yeah. And maybe not reduce their eligible area by Correct. Maybe not. Yeah. Yeah. Not also because that's because that's the flaw in the slaw that we see. Yeah. So I'm gonna tell you where the flaw in the slaw is. I know. And then to right here. If I

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: had Yeah. And unfortunately, we should have done this for an hour. We're gonna go to a quarter of and and give you five more minutes.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: This is like one more This is presentation. I agree.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Agree. Getting out of time essentially just wants

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: to Can you read that if it's like that?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We have it in front of us.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Okay. Great. So so this is ACT 181. I just copied and pasted, I didn't change anything. So ACT 181, where it creates tier 1B, that happens in title 10. Title ten-six 33. And it says, to obtain tier 1B status under this section, the Regional Planning Commission shall demonstrate to the board, the LERB, that the municipalities with tier 1B areas meet the following requirements. This is, this is the flaw in this law, as included in Subdivision 24 VSA, etcetera. That subdivision is linked in the PDF you have. It is the statutory criteria for village area. And it is duplicated in the criteria listed below in the subsection of 156, which are like, has water and sewer, a duly adopted municipal plan, certain statutory standards for permanent by law in the floodplain and flood hazard zone, and has municipal capacity to administer zoning permits. It also describes other things in Title 24, such as generally walkable, interior street grid, places of civic importance, historic preservation sites, consistency with historic preservation sites. So what has happened is this funnel. So you have Act 181 describes tier one B broadly as being places with infrastructure and a plan to grow. Then the RPCs have interpreted that as being places that meet certain title 24 criteria for growth centers, and then you have them presenting that map of what they see. These areas meet these Title 24 criteria for growth, and then the LERB is saying, No, no, not quite. They're having an even more conservative interpretation of the Title 24 criteria.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: So in simplest terms, what we're saying is, one B areas were created for communities that have planned for growth, have the capacity to grow. They don't have to have already been in a historic center. But the way this is being funneled down and interpreted, it's saying, oh, did you have an historic center designation through DHCD from the past? No, you don't, so now you're not eligible for tier one.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: That's basically it.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: That's basically the concern, or I'm gonna

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: you some very, what's that word that's illustrative? Illustrative. Illustrative? Thank you. So in Shelburne, they requested more than one center. Mhmm. One is sort of Mhmm.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Southwest. We just went to a meeting about it

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Yeah. Two nights ago. So they so the LERB said, well, your first one, that meets the definition of a center because of these reasons. Your second one doesn't really meet the definition of a center because it includes a mobile home park and a large fenced in area that is mostly, that is not always open to the public. Can anyone think of a large fenced in area in Shelburne that you've been to before? Shelburne. My Shelburne. Neighbor is

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It's Wake Shelburne. That's where we were. Are they meeting you?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Because Yeah. It's either Wake Robin or the Shelburne music.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It's the Shelburne There are a lot of fenced in the area. The Shelburne large. Yeah. I mean

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: So that's nuts. There's another example. So Burlington, the city of Burlington, also requested more than one center. Some of them were approved. One was sent back. Wait, which one did you say? Burlington. The city of Burlington. I'm trying

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: to get out of Chittenden County for it.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Okay. Well, great. I I agree.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: This has been done with her earlier the South Burlington.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: So this It's true. So the one that was provided recommendations and not approved, not they've not seen to meet the standard is Cambrian Rives. The largest neighborhood ever built in the history of Vermont.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Correct.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm pronouncing Senior House.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Yeah. Large, affordable housing development in thirty years. Right. And I heard you speculation no one knew the tallest building. It's currently City Place. It's about to be the new city building at Campground.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But I'm still curious if Rutland is on higher ground. I think

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: it's don't measure the ground. I know.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I know. I'm just trying to of Rutland.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: We measure something for people to be Yeah. But the radio tower is a college thing.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: The radio tower There's a

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: a there's a Yeah. I'll give you an example from Rutland County. So, Pultely

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Let me just interrupt right here. Yeah. We're gonna go till ten with you. We have a time sensitive thing, which is why we had scheduled the other. So instead, we'll go to ten, and we'll just Okay. I'll bring that up.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: I might leave at five. Oh, yeah. I'll have testimony at ten. But but, you know, so the part of what we're trying to get at is if the intent of this was to allow areas that have planned for growth to grow, why are we basing on who already had an historic an historic center with an historic neighborhood and those characteristics as being the only places we're saying you could grow?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We're not. We would that's what I mean, that that they they would be bringing it, we hope, and expanded with the neighborhood designation. That's what And then we might have other places that

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: RN 10 is completely out of

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: alignment, I think, with what is happening at Silver.

[John Morley (Guest, Resolution Proponent)]: Right. Thank you.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think that's a good

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: And it's out of alignment with the goals of our citizen planners and our elected officials on the select board and the voters who have authorized public money to go to expanding water and sewer, to accepting planning grants, to up zoning for density and capacity. And just plain common sense.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Sure. Out of alignment.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Well, so We need to hear it all. You know, we're here to speak on behalf of our members. Since 2020, the top reported concern of municipal officials and our annual surveys has been the availability and affordability of housing.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yes, we're we're clear on that. So,

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: we But it's it's constant reminder that we can't let things happen that derail from what what we say we are hearing.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Even if it's a yes.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Can I tell sorry?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Go ahead.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Go ahead. I'll go ahead. Talk I about Poultney for a second. So they had a very big reduction in their eligible area. They they have opted in for one b. So Pultely has a existing center. It was a downtown center, right? But not the village. That's a only village.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Right outside the school.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: So they had the highest designation formerly. And then together with the RPC, they basically mapped like a donut or like concentric ring where they had their existing center in the village, a planned growth area, which is all serviced by public infrastructure around that. And then they had these spurs of what they had mapped as village area that went along the major transportation and existing residential corridors that go into the old village. And so they mapped those as their village area as like a like, think about when a kid draws a son, that's what it looks like in Pulte. And the response that they received was and they went farther than that, and they really worked with the RPC to enhance and improve their local code. So they had said, from now on in this these village area spurs, any development that happens will receive an extension of public services, utilities, and will receive public investment in sidewalks on both sides and curbing and all the things that will make these areas look just like the downtown that we've been able to invest in with the state all these years. And when they took that to the LERP, the LERP said, no, no, no. That's a plan for a village area. That's not a village area. It doesn't look like that now. It doesn't currently have public utilities to every parcel. It doesn't currently have sidewalks on both sides. So that's not a village area. So they had they not received over the thief from Act to get the exemption for housing there, and they had to significantly reduce what they what was eligible for one b. Even though this is a one b ready community, This ready to rock a for one

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: b proposal. Yeah. Yes, this is why we're.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I'm very concerned about the expansive view the LERB is taking on their charge. Feel that everything I'm hearing is they're seeing their role as to preserve Vermonters, a nature preserve for future generations and not to facilitate foster human habitat in the way that wanted this field to do it. Do you see other parameters around ways to rein in and focus and give guardrails so they have less of an expansive interpretation and much more of a narrower focus?

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: So I, will say they were granted broad authority under Act nineteen eighty one. They were created and the law provides them with nearly singular authority over the future of Vermont's land use. Act 21 itself, to be fair, is not super deferential to municipal process. Mhmm. That said, certainly, it may be appropriate to provide more clearly articulated guardrails. Did we ever mean to say you have to meet the current statutory definition of a village area to be one b eligible? Like, that's a question that the legislature should answer, I think. But what we're asking for that feels remember, there's so many people involved. The LERB is working really hard. There are RPCs are breaking their necks.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Hundreds of community meetings have I'm happened sorry. Councilor. Planning commission, So select what we recommend, what we see as a balanced, totally logical approach is right now hit pause. Mhmm. Let the planning happen. Let the lurb process continue. Mhmm. Have them come back in and show it to you. It shouldn't be me. Right? Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And I take it I take it VLCT has waited with them and asked for this Pause it. Out, and now it's in our part during our time in the letter Well, they cannot pause the implementation.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: They can't

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: do Yeah. Most of what

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: we're asking. We give them permission.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Exactly. Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I'm clear on these ass

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: are represented in the rule caucus bill.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Right. And and the rule caucus.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: And Not quite the extension we want. We want What is that?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: 07:30. Eight seven thirty. Eight seven seven thirty. Just again, it's it's been introduced and

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: it's And who's the lead sponsor?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Laura Sebella. Laura, it's

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: a lead chair. Laura Sebella. He said he got money previously.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: I think we're top 30 sponsors or thirty, forty sponsors.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, I'm not surprised by any this. This is the perfect illustration of the tension between economic development and rural natural resources. It's been going on for more than fifty years. And I think it's time to set

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: boundaries. Mhmm.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I will say the governor was in charge of it was a project alert. I'm just gonna say that out loud. I think it's really important that we talk about our intent on the record because it is being used all over the state, all over the judiciary about what our intent was. And and the main reason for my bill three o s three zero five was because I'm getting asked to explain our intent around the state, and I had to stop doing that to not overstep my legislative authority. Which is why we're asking for it. Sure.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Because he we gave up that piece because it's their jurisdiction. But to go to David's point and Tom's point and Kesha's, it is joint it's a joint it it had joint implications on both economic development and financial reasons. And we we definitely have to take action this year. We're gonna have joint hearings on this and other pieces, and thank you for this. This is really helpful.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: For giving us the time. I mean,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: we run into this challenge. Too. Yeah.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Every time we talk about housing, whether it's upstairs and House General or here, we don't have the ability to separate state land use from local land use. Municipalities, it's land use. Some don't have any local land use. It is Act two fifty. And so when we talk about housing at the municipal level, it's all land use. That's all we have. So it's really hard to separate these discussions and think that they happen outside of working together.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Well, and see, think, yeah, same thing with the work that RPCs are doing, they're correct. Instruction is clear. Go do this. And that's what they're doing, is tier one. And then the instruction to the LERB is clear. Go do this. MAP Vermont's most natural resources, there's 11 of them, I think, enumerated in the tiers recession of act one eighty one. And that's what they're doing. But for our members, for our communities, for our home builders, for our current property owners who want to age and invest in the community they live in, they can't they can't pick and choose. They're being put in one of these places. Right? Like, they will be subject to act two fifty jurisdiction or not based on these decisions, which are not happening in concert. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And and before Kesha, I guess I think your illustrations are really great examples and stark illustrations of of these two values, butting heads. And wasn't God, it just wasn't the intent. The intent was to have thoughtful review of what where we want our town to grow. Certainly weighed in on that. Yeah. What's discouraging to me is we pushed it to on the ground thoughtful review of where do we want to be in fifty years, and where do we want to grow, where do we want to invest? I'm very discouraged to hear that particular example. And I think it's sort of, as you say, a little more time too illustrative of some of the challenges we need to the opportunities to fix it this year. It's probably okay. Oh, sorry. Kesha, did you?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Go ahead.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Uh-huh. You got it.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Between between us and natural resources, when we wrote act one eighty one, we put significant language in about environmental justice being a big part of what the LERG focuses on. I was very worried and I set that in committee to them that they would not they needed to define what we meant by environment. Like, we defined it, but and it's in the law, but that they could not use it to congest certain areas and constrain other areas. And I'm very concerned about I mean, I presented to them on environmental justice with Karla Ram Hinsdale. I don't know if they ever said those words again after that presentation.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: We we have heard from our members that are rural, working class, rural, low, moderate income, they don't own property, that are very concerned about their equity in this and how they find themselves in this state and passing on land to their family members to build a home, the value of their properties, the taxes. They they they're very concerned. They do not believe that this represents sort of economic justice for Right. Rule, working Vermonters Vermonters who rule that are have wealth and aren't spared by an act two fifty permit. Right. Maybe they're okay. You know? But the the ones that maybe aren't ready with the engineer on speed dial and an attorney to make sure they can put up their garage or add an ADU for their, you know, new new daughter and and and granddaughter are very concerned about that. Yeah.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: It is and it is knowable. Like, we know who is a homeowner and what their incomes are and how many people live in those homes now in these rural communities that could be subjected to both the rural and tier three. Like, we know that the average household income in Rutland County is around $60,000 We know that the average saving from Act two fifty permit exemption is around $50,000 is what you save in permit fees when you're exempt from Act two fifty. So, is knowable, and there's absolutely a totally sincere economic justice concern that could be a downstream. And the thing is, after it goes into effect and after the property values change, that doesn't happen until these properties change hands or fail to get a permit or have to amend their development plan. That would take ten years maybe to see on the grant list, right? But all the while, those Ram Hantras would be experiencing those barriers to fulfilling their own pursuit of happiness.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I know we're wrapping up. VLCT has a tremendously respected and important voice in the state house. I hope you keep speaking this to anybody that will listen. You need to hear this.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We're going to do joint hearing. Yeah. And I've taken a lot of notes off into our chairs. Because this is one

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: of the we I assume it'd be part of one of our joint. Yep.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Gotta go to another test. Thank you.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Okay. We're talk about transportation investment. Good. Well, yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Touch the bell. Okay. But don't you have another thought? No. Think I do. Some sport into that concept. Right. Right. John Worley will be back. Thank you, John.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Thank you for the Thank you so much.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Oh, of God. You very much. And great illustrations of the challenge. Thank you. Really appreciate Hold on. Alright. They're the. Right. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Great. Thank you, guys.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Great. John will be back any moment because we ask that the we're gonna do the resolution at ten. So our time has compressed, as you all know, so we happily rearranged things a little bit because that was important to hear. David, thank you for reviewing this, and I see you working on the resolution. So thank you for that. Just as we go into this, Michael, I'm gonna let John tee it up and then let you start I'm actually about to see the line by line. Sure. Well, we don't need to Yeah. Whatever you want. I think they're just sort of big power. However you want it done, have to For about twenty minutes. You intend to vote today? Well, that is what I I understand we're under some time pressure because of the Olympics starting. That's my understanding. The reason we're doing this today and fit it in is the time pressure we have. It's still is going Tuesday, right? Tuesday at 09:30. This still has to go, if the Senate, if you pass it out, of course, and if the Senate decides to adopt it, it still would need to go to the House of Which is why we have to, which is why we were asked by the flowers that feed to take it up. So we're making time for it. Now we're needing Morley. I know.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I can go looking for him if you

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: want No. Wouldn't bother. He's very timely, and he will be here any sick. Who? John Morley. So Can we just breathe in? Yes. Let's take a peek at it. It's right in front of you.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: I'm good with it.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: No. Yeah. I mean, I get I get part of it.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: I don't

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I'm glad you went, like, leave. What's up? You didn't mean that. I think the major app is that that they're asking for gender equality in the Nordic combined. Evidently, the Olympics allows for it for men, but not for women. Have you seen Morely Thomas?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Would you like me to go look for him?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: He's in human Word. Here he is. Right? Thank you, John. The chair is yours.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And it's 09:59. My clock is fast.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It's ten. So, Molly, good. Welcome, John. So welcome to come and tell us why this is so important to you at this moment and why we need to move on it. Thank you Madam Chair. You're welcome.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: It's good

[John Morley (Guest, Resolution Proponent)]: to Senator John Malik Wololi's District. First time I was visiting this room. This

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: is where it all happens.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: This is where it

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: all all happens.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That's where a lot happens. Yeah. Thank you.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: And so this resolute

[John Morley (Guest, Resolution Proponent)]: So what I'd like to do then up here is kind go through the highlights of the resolution.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, and tell us how you got involved in the first place and why it's so important.

[John Morley (Guest, Resolution Proponent)]: Yep, exactly, and then in the end, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna go through why I think it's really critical and how it's important to me. Yes. So in this resolution, Nordic combined is a challenging winter sport, obviously requiring competitors to prove their skills as both Nordic skiers and alpine ski jumpers, whereas the perhaps century Nordic combined competition in the Winter Olympics has been tarnished due to its exclusion of women of women, whereas I have an exhibit of outstanding Nordic combined performances in Olympic competition, non Olympic competition. And among the premier women's Nordic combined competitors is her boss, Kara Gerrity Bones, who has earned national and international recognition. And if you folks don't know who she is, you should go online to take OKR. Very, very impressive individual. And I'm gonna skip down a couple more. Whereas, hydraulically, although the International Olympic Committee, the IOC, recently welcomed the fourteenth declaration adopted unanimously by the six night session of the United Nations Commission on the Status of Women, reaffirming the importance of sport as a vehicle for gender equality, continue this exclusionary policy of the twenty twenty six Winter Olympics. Whereas beyond 2026, Nordic combined Winter Olympic competition may be in peril as the IOC may decide to eliminate the sport entirely as a way to end this embarrassing gender exclusion controversy. Are kind of the important ones for me that are in this resolution. And what I would like to say is I raised two young daughters, and they were in a pretty tough sport. They were in ice hockey, and we played in Canada, just across the border, the Canadian border. And our home rink was Stansted. And they they started boys and girls together, and it worked really, really, really well. But there becomes a certain limit that which everyone understands. We're checking the into the sport. And then women played in women's meets and boys and boys. But they had always had access to the ranks. Then when they got to high school, they played in the high school athletics, in ice hockey, which I thought was awesome, and then in college. And then, obviously, you have ice hockey in the Olympics for women as well. This one here and so I'm biased because I have two beautiful, wonderful daughters. And so when I see things like this, it it it's it's it's bond risk.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: You're not biased. You're a good human.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thank you very much, particular competition come why are you championing it? Do you represent Tara? Do you No. What prompted you to do this? Just

[John Morley (Guest, Resolution Proponent)]: out of discussion, if you look said, if you look at her bio and you look at what she's been able to do and she's she's not able to compete at the at the highest stage in in the world.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. No. I I appreciate your concern, but you don't represent her. This is just general concern for women Correct. Having equity in all

[John Morley (Guest, Resolution Proponent)]: the Not just just just care of. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But but all of we get. Yeah.

[John Morley (Guest, Resolution Proponent)]: And so it was

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: support. Terrific. David. So I'm still trying to

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: figure out what's really being asked for here. So correct me if I'm wrong. In Nordic combined Olympic competition, is no woman's Right. Correct. And and we're just sending out a signal that

[John Morley (Guest, Resolution Proponent)]: we just squeeze the more.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We're sending it to the IOC.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. And that's it. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. That's it. That's all that's being asked about.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Are there any other sports that are

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: y'all not aware of the Olympic? Everything else.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Everything else.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: The only suggestion I might have is that we take the opportunity with this to know all of the women Vermonters who won medals in the recent years. Yeah. We had a surprise bronze medalist whose whose brother was in our wedding and is a CBU grad. She became a surprise bronze medalist last time in Skeetcha. Like, we've had some wonderful Vermont women win lots of medals in the winter. Like, we have.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Actually, I thought where you were going is the only thing I'd like to see added is that we would a a a an additional resolve that that any future additional competitions that are added that we would ask of the IOC Inclusion. All of it, all genders be included in any additional competition going forward.

[John Morley (Guest, Resolution Proponent)]: I have no problem that.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So I'd like to add a whereas for honoring the women of

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Vermont who won medals. Right.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: I don't know you

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: go on that or specifically Winter.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And I don't know if want the time frame on it, but but winter.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And the time frame is before the Olympics start. Correct. It has to go to the house. Reason we're taking this off for the public who don't know this is any substantive resolution comes to the committee jurisdiction, and that's what gets about that. So we're treating it like a bill. Yep. And it is so we address it. We pass it. It will go to the house now if we pass it. But so we we have two additions, Michael. Yeah. The one fought for the Vermont winter. Then we wanna The second one, though, is another which you want further that no additional sports ever Be added. Added in in this manner. Right. Correct. No. Not in this manner, but any additional competition that's added with the IOC that have both gestures Beyond beyond Nordic. Yes. Okay. Okay. I can give that. But any additional Any additional sports, any other sport can be gender equitable. Gender equitable. Okay. You. Thank you. Any other questions for John? Thank you for bringing this to us. Particularly in the winter sports. Yep. Vermont is very well represented. Very, very well. Triumphed in ways we're all extremely proud. And so really appreciate you bringing this to us now. And the economic impact, we cannot go without saying because Molly's in the room, so I'm gonna just make sure we we the economic impact of our winter sporting events in this state. The competition when it's in Killington, the World Cup. Yep. It it's incredible the women's World Cup, what that does for our region. David and I are gonna touch with that.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: And JP can burger.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And JP can burger. Anytime we have a major competition, this is a huge economic development for our our state. So we are we will hope to have more, and we are grateful to you for bringing this to us. Thank you. And with that, I would ask the clerk to call the role on this resolution.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Oh, do

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: want me

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: to see these? With those I haven't written these yet.

[Samantha Sheehan (Municipal Policy & Advocacy Specialist, VLCT)]: Okay. Those are really

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Then we will do this next week. Sorry.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: I Time pressure

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: on If you would be kind enough to have these drafted for us for Tuesday's school week, you're looking at this two shades never book on that I haven't written yet. They're really favorites. Light and short. Who knows? Go back

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: to me.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Not that short. You're with us Tuesday, Wednesday? Yes. Okay. Great. So if we could have a Tuesday first That's easy. To review? Okay. Great. Wonderful. Perfect.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, VLCT)]: Thank you. The

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: next one will be ready to file. Thank you. We're gonna take a a break. We are gonna be gyms again at fifteen with the act preventing surveillance pricing, which is interesting. So do a five minute break