Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah. Well, I mean, I'll

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: do definitely well. Actually, no. We I think parents well, sorry. Good morning. Welcome to Senate Economic Development Housing and General Affairs, And it is Thursday, January 29. Yep.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Oh, let me Brightening.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And we are turning to a day of labor and workforce development. And it is with great pleasure that we launched today with a proposal for how we reconsidered our treasured actually, treasured program, career and technical education program in our public school system. And we, our own Kesha Ram Hinsdale, has drafted a bill that we are going to walk through, and we're gonna turn to her to explain what what prompted this bill and the work of the summer and why you introduced us.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Great. Thank you, madam chair. I think there is some purpose language findings in the beginning, but I think help frame up a lot of why career technical education is so important. But we often try to avoid sort of facts and figures there so we're not arguing about those. But I think some of them are really important to name before we take up this bill. And it's the reason I think, you know, senator Weeks, depending on how he feels about hearing this twice, you know, Senator Weeks and I hear a lot about in Santa education as well. As folks I think have heard, it it became clear to me in senate education in the in the process of transformation or major reform that career technical education was getting entirely left behind once again. Right? I mean, I think Beth can speak to, through no fault of hers, that H four fifty four that we looked at, our committee looked at one sentence about CTE centers. And while AOE would represent that they were working on a separate bill related to CTE that was coming through house commerce, I don't think there was a robust enough conversation happening anywhere about the importance of career technical education. And so I think many of the CTE center directors and others who, employers, everyone who cares about career technical education was once again feeling like it's being treated as an afterthought when it is a major pillar of our economic mobilization, as we're all starting to say. Some facts and figures kind of struck me as we were going through the process and they're reflected in how other states are moving on through technical education. There are a lot of nonprofits that help states figure out policy that we can call upon that I spoke with as well outside of our meeting. But the chair may recall, you know, we had these, I wanna say five or six meetings that we just pulled together. Nobody got compensated, it wasn't a formal working group. People made it to most of them or were invited along the way to participate. We met at the, Hannaford Center in Middlebury, we met at The River, what is that? River Valley. River Valley. Career Tech. Career Tech in Springfield. Yeah. We met at St. Johnsbury Academy. We met at Hyde Park. Hyde Park. And we may have had, like, one or two virtual meetings. It's a it's a it's a hairy drive.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We're we're delighted senator Brock has made it in the last days.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So some of the things that we I think we all were struck by, you know, I think once you get enough people from across the state together from different sectors, you you're struck by some really key finding. Number one, and this is something Chaney can speak to or maybe people in the room that I don't know where they're coming from, But about forty percent of Vermont students go on to two or four year degrees from high school. We have a very solid graduation, high school graduation rate, though it's slipping. It could improve. Could improve. If that, we should always be keeping our eye on, that's critical. But we have treated this forty percent marker for going on to higher education as some kind of failure, and it's really not. It's really actually what most states are acknowledging is the population.

[Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: We all have the same drive, though.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I agree. I'm glad you're here. Most states are starting to recognize that 40% of their students, given the current job market and sort of what we know from decades, as we get past this period of time where we, which I was a part of as a geriatric millennial of, you have to go to college. You know, some you failed if you haven't. And everything

[David Weeks (Clerk)]: in

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: high school will be preparing you to go to college and not to do.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And that you'll learn more if you go to college.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And that's not sure about right. So the market at one point, you know and and my professor who I'd love to maybe have testified, who's now the dean of Harvard College, David Deming, who was who probably still teaches in the Harvard Graduate School of Education, would say that it's years in school. And actually, we're really solving a lot of our problems with early childhood education. Those are the more critical years in school. And that based on just market forces, but also the needs of the world and getting past this period where we were over with four year degrees, that 60% of our students need something else. And the question is, are they getting it? 40% of that So there's 40% that need a two or four year degree. There are 40% that need some kind of technical training or certification that can start in their high school years. And in fact, because those rely on a number of hours and years to become, you know, a journeyman and then a master if you're in the trades, then they can actually become a journeyman, you know, in their early twenties instead of casting about and not until their late twenties or early thirties, beginning to realize their earning potential if they're able to start with some of those programs in high school. And then 20% don't need anything after high school. It could be just being in CTE through graduation. It could, you know, certifications certainly always help that they don't need to be right when you're 18 years old. They could be later in life, but that other 20% really don't need anything. They need to be exposed to career opportunities early and to know themselves what their pathway is. And I would tag on to that

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: because the crowd we're really concerned about, which this bill addresses a huge part, are the crowd that dropped out at 16. And that is, I think, our most concerning group of people who have not. Our job is to engage them and help them find their bliss by the time they're 16 so that they're continuing on because everybody needs some training and additional expertise to actually continue on their own two feet financially. That's the crowd I think So I a lot

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: think we were all struck too by learning that just like we consider third grade an inflection point for literacy, and we really wanna know at that age, you know, if a student is on a path on their path to success for later years, seventh grade is a major inflection point. You're feeling like you have a path forward and you have hope and a career in mind and exposure to enough positive career pathways that make you come alive, that you have the self determination to build a path. Most of our kids are not getting that exposure in middle school. If they are, it's it's very much, you know, a couple field trips, a one day thing, it's very uneven. Schools are

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: really doing a good

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: job. But the unevenness, I think, is what everyone has been reacting to. We want, want, we know different counties, you know, have different major economic drivers, major employers, and there will always be some unique nature of how the different CTE centers work. But in general, a student at any I wanna say elementary school, but let's just say any middle and high school should be able to get the exposure and connection they need Guidance. And guidance to be able to to build a career pathway. That is not happening everywhere. And that

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: those are all pieces that are addressed in this This

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: bill, really, it is language that our working group saw on our last meeting on December 4 at St. John's Bear Academy, thanks to Tom Chittenden and Seth Bowden at the Vermont Business Roundtable. We were, there was agreement that we need to create a vision that turns into approved models for CTE that make sure the student is centered. That can look different in different places, but right now, it's driven a lot by space and regulation and the culture of a particular CTE, and that creates huge gaps for students. And that's, I think the most important thing we heard and maybe we can have some testimony from students themselves. But my bottom line is that I hope this bill drives us toward universal access to CTE right now if you are seen to have behavioral issues in middle school or you are, your grades aren't good enough, you could be denied access to career technical education. And or if, you know, your high school has a specific relationship with this center, but you wanna do health care and that's offered somewhere else, and there's no transportation, there's no support. We don't have universal access to CTE, and we don't have universal exposure to what CTE can offer in middle school. So the goal here is to drive at the tools that our education system needs to not let students, fall through the cracks and not get what they need to be in that sixty percent of students who can graduate and get a job right away and be successful in our economy.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So that's a great tee up. I'll just say before Beth, our wonderful one is the council in education takes over. This is an area of joint jurisdiction between senate education and senate economic development. Are Seth and I have been in discussion about how we're gonna proceed with it, who's gonna take it up first. We all heard the agency's proposal for CTE transformation, and we are now entertaining another proposal for that as in large measure. So I just wanted to frame up, Seth and I are gonna chat about that after the testimony from, today because they are, Senate Education is also doing this this afternoon. David, sorry about that, because you get to hear it about two times. Yeah. You get to hear this is the first reverse.

[David Weeks (Clerk)]: It's twice as important as many of the other top respiratory tracts. So I fully support your CTE efforts. I'm a co sponsor on your bill and I appreciate all you've done in the CTL, CTE realm. But I wanna push back on one concept, and that is CTE, I don't believe it's an afterthought. I think the governor gets it. I believe AOE gets it. Public education committees get it. And we're all working to the same end. So I applaud you for touchability. I just don't think it's properly characterized as an apoptotic apoptosis.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, let's, I wanna be wrong about that. Don't want it to be an every thought. I want it to be the goal of what we do with both committees this year.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay, with that, Tia, Beth St. James.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Council, good morning. Do you all want me to share my screen?

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We actually have the bill in front of us. It's S 2 S 313. Yes.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I think it's helpful. I think it's your screen because we don't know what Steph is looking at versus

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. So why don't you share your screen? And it's also out for the public or the YouTube watchers or our fans. CTE fans. I also. Because we actually had robust attendance at these meetings also, which was another thing to say. We had real great engagement.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. So we are going to walk through S 313 as introduced. How is that size wise? Are we good? We are. It's readable. Would you like to be more readable?

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. Okay. That is good. So,

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: this bill is entitled an act relating to transforming Vermont's career technical education system. It starts, section one is findings, section two is the bulk of the bill, but it is intent language, so there is no statutory changes in the bill, or there are no statutory changes in the bill. How do you want to do this walkthrough? Do you want me to just, do you wanna just read it together? Do you wanna talk general concepts? Because there's no law to summarize.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: God, I think it's, I think that we, I think Kesha has covered in large measure our findings. Right. Okay. And I think what we really wanna go to is what the bill is challenging us to consider. Great.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I think that's a great way to frame that. Challenge this language is is your challenge to consider. That's so That's why you're the chair. So, section two starts on page three of the bill, line one, current technical education system transformation, and as I've already said, this is legislative intent language. So in order to realize a strong statewide career preparation system, it is the intent of the General Assembly to transform Vermont's CTE system as follows, and so there's kind of, there's four or five, five buckets of topics. So the first one is providing universal access to CTE, ensuring that every student can participate in CTE programming, including pre tech and foundation courses by, and so here's your challenge.

[Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Go ahead.

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Increasing access to CTE in middle school and the first two years of high school, addressing barriers such as transportation, scheduling conflicts, and awareness, providing consistency in admissions policies across all CPE centers, and ensuring that no student may be placed on a waitlist or prevented from accessing CTE when there is a viable alternative to the locally accessible program through the provision of transportation. So the second bucket is to, your second challenge is to enable flexible delivery models, expanding beyond regional tech centers to offer multiple pathways for students to access CTE programming and graduate with required high school courses by, on page four now, line one, delivering programs at funding high schools or in a hybrid format where appropriate to improve accessibility and utilizing shared resources and technology to improve educational access and limit transportation needs. Third challenge is aligning the CTE system with workforce needs by designing and evaluating programs based on current and emerging Vermont labor market demands, continuing the robust evaluation of the system through the comprehensive local needs assessment process, and utilizing statewide research from Vermont's most promising jobs from VT labor market information to assess student outcomes in continuing to the workforce. Fourth challenge, creating a sustainable student centered funding system that removes disincentives for participation and supports program growth and innovation. Flexible delivery models and access must be taken into consideration to ensure the sustainability of programs delivery. Fifth, challenge, explore the viability and impact of CPE centers becoming diploma conferring institutions or comprehensive high schools. In situations where this is not possible, high schools shall be required to award the credits recommended by a CTE center. Sixth challenge, maintain a strong adult CTE system by building robust adult and continuing education pathways within CTE that meet Vermont's upskilling, reskilling, and workforce development needs, while connecting seamlessly with secondary programs and regional workforce partners. Such a system shall have a governance and funding model that promotes coordination, quality, program consistency, and sustainability. Seventh challenge, coordinate CTE governance by establishing governance approaches that strengthen collaboration across districts, improve consistency and program quality, and better supports positive student outcomes. DTE governance should align with the ongoing education transportation process with the above goals as the lens through which decisions are made. I wonder if we even if that was supposed to be transformation process. Instead of process.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It's entirely possible. I don't think we have, a transportation I I maybe we should I think we spell out transportation elsewhere.

[Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: We do. Yeah. Transparency sound good.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Oh, thank you. I'm sure that's So those are seven big challenges, Dave. I think it's great though.

[David Weeks (Clerk)]: Yeah. It's conceptual, it's a full, right? Yeah. It's lofty. For example, universal access, every student What knows I, this is just my first blush at this. Second blush because I read this earlier. But where do we do we affect the current law?

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Where do we change? Yeah.

[David Weeks (Clerk)]: That's kind of like the Middle South. Otherwise, it's Right. Rhetoric.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah. So and and I have thoughts there. I didn't I I didn't wanna make everyone argue about those in short in short order, while this was our placeholder to get here. So so number five, I think, is the place where we got the most concrete about which models are working and which models are not. And I would say this, and there will be probably superintendents and CTE directors who disagree with me. And I'm gonna give credit and blame to Jay Ramsey actually at the Department of Labor and ask him to come in because he's been doing this for decades. And at one meeting he simply said, we have to kind of let kids go at 16 and not keep kind of their life on hold while they get their high school diploma from their sending school. And what I took away from that, and even he could frame it differently, think we provided to testify, is that these students are learning incredible math skills, English skills, life skills in CTE, but they have to go back and get diploma from their high school. And even the education quality standards, those will not work for CTE. I mean, they simply, you know, in our October meeting, the CTEs came to us and said, we weren't even at the meeting about the education quality standards. So I think what we are going to need are potentially, and we talked about this in education yesterday, either education quality standards that are broader, so they're more universal, or a specific set of educational quality standards for CTE that they can meet, that also align with Perkins funding, and allow them to graduate their own students or have their degrees, you know, work in coordination with their high school to say, these are the, they're qualified for this, not they have to take an online class, not we didn't think this was good about. Another really concrete thing that the CTEs need to accomplish this is an alternative hiring and pay scale model for their faculty. Their faculty are practitioners, people who often give up other more lucrative careers, and they are taking a pay cut, but they, it's really hard to find someone who will take that much of a pay cut, you know, to teach kids engineering instead of go out into the field or teach kids health sciences. So they need to be able to have alternative human resources, systems and policies. Tom?

[Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Yeah. I do. I think this is a great language and exactly the direction that Ram Hinsdale in. One thing to your point, Senator Weeks, that, I've been the most not to bring the bigger conversation of education transformation into this, but I'm not on its head, so apologies if you already tackled this. But what really resonated with me is what the campaign for Vermont, how they really put forward a structure where CTEs would be at the center of the existing CTEs, 13 or 14 of them, at the center of contemplated new supervisory unions, maintaining a lot of the existing governance structure. Because I think feasibly, if CTEs existed in each of more rationally sized districts, I think we're going to get a lot of this cohesion. I completely support bullet five, which is what limited understanding I have about how Europe does it, but I think it makes a lot of sense to have these magnets for kids to go to and finish out their studies with different graduation standards than what other kids that stay in other of the alternative track of the other high schools. So for what it's worth, I do love CTE, but I think that if there was one in each of a ration size district, I think we would move in that direction or tangible direction. Randy.

[Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: This is first time I've read this. It's good. I do wonder whether or not there should be something in there that defines what a high school graduate should know, at least addresses the issue that a person who graduates from CTE should meet all requirements that we have established elsewhere for graduation from secondary school.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: That's the conversation we began yesterday in Senate Education, and I think that might be Senate Education's jurisdiction in this bill. Absolutely. But it would be I agree. Like, we agree. But it

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: would be interesting for Beth to share with

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: us what is currently required. Well, there's nothing required. There is

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: a draft There is. No.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: To graduate from high school? Yeah, there is. There are currently, currently graduation requirements are local. Through the education quality standards and the standards adopted by the state board, there are certain minimum course of study, for lack of a better way to put it, expectations that every school district is providing to their students. But as far as how many credits of what type, you know, of English, of science, of social studies, whatever, those are more or less local decisions right now. Act 73 asked the agency of education to make recommendations for statewide graduation requirements. I believe the agency has done that and those recommendations are on the legislature's website. The next step would be for the state board of education who owns the education quality standards rules to take those recommendations in consideration and then update the education quality standards with statewide graduation requirements that I believe would go into effect in the twenty eight-twenty nine school year. I believe the first, what Act 73 contemplates is the first graduated class that would be subject to statewide graduation requirements would be 2031, the class of 2031. State Board testified, I believe yesterday at Senate Education, that they've stood up a committee on graduation requirements. They can't remember, they're prepared to pick up that work and run with it. I believe they anticipate a robust discussion around those statewide education requirements. But they did say to us, they're leaving alone. There is a separate set of rules or standards, and this is where I'm not gonna put up the language for CTE, and they are putting that on hold entirely in the same committee perhaps, but they're putting that on hold until we discuss how to relate the EQS recommendations, I would call them for academic

[Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: to Okay.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: The ones for career technical

[Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Oh, seems to be though Education policy. Should, least at some point, as we're designing a CTE system, address the issue of what academic requirements need to be met by anybody who graduates from Right, any of these

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: that would definitely be addressed You with CTE

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: may want to take testimony on it, may you wanna leave it to Senate education, but if you look at the recommendations for the academic centers right now, I think it's I think it makes it really hard to graduate from a CTE center. Think they they have the last few years of retirement that would be

[Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Whether it's between education or our input, it's something that needs to be addressed. The other thing that comes to mind is that when you have masters of students move to masses, masses, by the Mont standard, move to CTE as a means to finish secondary education. I just wonder, what are they missing? In other words, if we have the ability to take people out of high school and put them into CTE, what are they getting in high school now that they're gonna be missing and don't need?

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So so if you ask me, like, what I think the only model is we should be moving towards, and I think Thomas started to say this. Yeah. It's a comprehensive high school. It's really incredible for students that say their senior year, you know what? I wanna take shop. Like, that's how I feel like we I grew up was like, you wanna take woodworking, you can come alive. Shop. And then adults can use those facilities in the evenings or whatever.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Challenge that we heard, of course, with the AOE's presentation is that the obvious comprehensive high schools are kind of a version of what they're talking about with regional regional the regionalization. I think one of our challenges is figuring out how to incentivize in a substantive way Yes. Regionalization. Because until you actually co locate, quite honestly, until you fully co locate career and technical education, it it many of the trainings are not instrument and and machine heavy, but many are. And those are are those are one of our biggest challenges in in some of this. I think what we should be all considering, and this charges us to and challenges us to kind of figure out, is the bridge that that we're gonna need to get to the point where we do have a comprehensive a middle and high school experience where we can actually institute an individualized learning plan where kids can begin this Right. Seventh and eighth grade.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: What I would argue, and I'm trying to do it dispassionately about AOE's proposal is we all started on the same page about and I think we can we are looking at school construction dollars in senate education, and we will continue to do that every year regardless of where we live this year, and if it was a requirement to receive school construction dollars that you had to be moving toward being a regional Right. Regionally comprehensive in CTE, then the proposal to get there needs to align with that ultimate goal. Yeah. Moving all of that governments to AOE, I don't think helps us get to regional high schools. What I do think helps us get there is creating the same district boundaries for CTE and the academic centers and embedding CTE in with the district so that they're not Absolutely. For students and transportation. And and

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: that is the biggest issue for those of us who've been involved with this for a long time. The biggest nut we've failed to crack is the competition for dollars and the competitions for kids in attending. Right.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So It's Almost every district in the current state or the future state should have articles of agreement that are that almost are like a bill of rights for students and parents that allow them to get what they need at whatever age in middle and high school to to start off this path.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I I I completely agree with you. And I, as you know, applaud this work a 100%. I think one of the opportunities we have is we could actually figure out, we could work this session on designing a bridge. I mean, because to me that's of what you need. I mean, this is great. This is our challenge. But how do we get there?

[David Weeks (Clerk)]: And we

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: have to figure out I think that's really our charge. I think we can all see the perfect, but getting to the perfect is is I think what we need to begin step by step.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And just like the conversations we're having with an education, each district does need something a little different. They they it's not, you know, the the same everywhere.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It it it's it's not. But if we're gonna have universal offerings and universal access, we're gonna have to have aeronautics in Resource ally as well as Exactly. Chittenden. David, you have a

[David Weeks (Clerk)]: I do have a wanna kinda push on a concept here. It's on page three, a story on line 15. Ensuring that no student will be placed on a wait list to prevent or from accessing CTE when there are reliable alternatives to the locally accessible programs. So that part I agree with completely until it gets to through the provision of transportation. I want to kind of sensitize the committee to the concept that everybody in this state house loves everything that California does

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, a broad statement. A major California, would say absolutely not. I

[David Weeks (Clerk)]: just wanted to highlight that in California, only 10% of students are actually moved by bus. The primary bonus is on a parent. Oh yeah. Somewhere in here we have to balance the parent responsibility versus the state responsibility. This may be one of those cases. I heard this provision of transportation frequently. I just think we need to be sensitive about going up maybe a little bit too far in usurping the responsibility. Well, or given we have

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: two, I mean, given the parents are that I I think that's a challenge. I think you're right. We have to balance it and the question is, state, district, center. I mean, I think it's a it it's like three or four parts of that transportation piece, Thomas.

[Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: So I agree completely that it needs to be a balance. I also think that part of our problem in my travels, talking to superintendents and principals, is we don't have synchronicity across calendaring and logistic. That's annoying. Yeah. But that will make that will make coordinated transportation Feel

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: free to address that. Okay. So I thought senator Chittenden, I'm just gonna say something else because this has been a huge pet issue for me between this committee, education and transportation, which is we don't offer driver's education in most of our high school. So I have yeah. Look at that stuff. We don't even have driver's ed instructors at this point.

[David Weeks (Clerk)]: Yeah. There's a so there is a sourcing problem for drivers ed instructors. I don't know if it's-

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: They all have to take drivers ed instruction in New Hampshire.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We take drivers, well,

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm gonna- Teacher. Taught in New Hampshire. Oh,

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: teaching the teacher get taught in New Hampshire.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: That's So and we don't have that many.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yikes. It used to always be in high school. I remember going remember when we passed our cell phone van in driving? Yeah. I went to the driver's ed class, and I charged the I will restrain myself. One of the students who said, oh, the teeth's cake. I can do everything. And he failed big time. And I drove in a little cart with him while he tried to do everything and he failed. Adore this kid. But it it so it's all who has been embedded in the high school. Has it been slowly outsourced? That's

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I I I mean, King Street Center in Burlington is teaching drivers ed because

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: no one else happening with

[Beth St. James (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: drivers ed. I taught kids to the risk of my life. So I cannot speak to what's happening in the in the field. I am just my life is the green books. And the green books do require, so section ten forty five in panel 16 requires driver education and training course approved by AOE and DMV to be made available to students whose parent or guardian is a resident of Vermont and have reached their fifteenth birthday and who are regularly enrolled in a public or independent school. And then there's a couple other requirements there, like the driver education courses the course of instruction approved by the state board. I think the issue is the funding of that program. Yes. That's a huge issue. There is so I don't know how many schools are actually offering that. Mhmm. No? But there is 10 section ten forty seven a is driver education grants, which is to provide increased availability and quality of driver education programs for Vermont students.

[Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yep. I mean We didn't need

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: go driving could be taught anywhere.

[David Weeks (Clerk)]: I mean

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, you kinda physically have to go, so that precludes you don't have any driver's instruction on

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: our West Coast, so we can take Oh, for teachers. That's shock. That is sort

[Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: of shock.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Maybe it's online. Wouldn't trust that. I want to be in the car. So Okay. I'll work on that. This would save us transportation dollars.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: There there are lots of co just like we talked about co location for we have the CUDs upstairs, the communication union just we have not figured out efficient use of all the transportation vehicles we currently have, and we need to do a better job. And that is an opportunity in this need at the moment until we have these regional high schools where we can have comprehensive high school and middle schools. This is something for us to solve together, but there are, as we all know, there are transportation vehicles that just sit there a little So, you know, we could figure this out as a bridge.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And it's still a when there is a viable alternative, and a viable alternative is not going to be picking up every student one by one. It's going be, we could send a van and then our tax rate would go down because we'd have more students, which is why I

[David Weeks (Clerk)]: was I figured, I thought that the viable alternative meant that there was another CTE, which was close enough that the student could go to partake in a program that he may have not been able to, because he was on a wait list in his home CTE. Like Stafford.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So we have this issue with Stafford Middlebury, as I recall.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And we passed, we passed something similar to this last year. And then I don't know that it's just a problem there, I don't wanna pick on that, but there you simply we AOE should be saying, no, like, you can't have this wait list. We're gonna tell all these kids that they can go to the next door at CTE center and, you know, we're gonna this is where AOE could be doing a lot more and they can come tell us what they don't have the legislative authority to do right now.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So there are lots of challenges in this, but I think this is also a great blueprint for us to figure out how we get there. I mean, is challenges of figuring out how the hell we get there. Right. And I think And I

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: just wanna tell the story of this this young man who's in, like, Southern Southern Addison County. Who came to our meeting? Yeah. Yeah. You know? And he is off to welding school in Wyoming because they also have, like, paintball on campus and fun things we don't have in the welding program. Just

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We have to buy Wyoming because we do offer those things here, buddy. There were some He did not know about them. Yes. Which was shocking.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And he wanted to go to a campus. And so there's there's a school in Wyoming that's very attracted to kids that don't feel attracted to a program in their home state.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And has been. Wyoming. And it

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: and he got a scholarship. He he essentially told us, and I love to hear from some of the students, that because of behavioral problems in middle school, he was denied at Stafford.

[Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Right.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And then somebody asked him, you know, well, did you know you could apply to Hannaford? And he said, I just thought I got rejected from CTE. I don't know the difference between Stafford and Hannaford. And this kid was, what, 15, 16 years old when he got rejected from something.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Also, to me, that's exactly a kid that needs a guidance counselor who's working

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: on behavioral problems in middle school just to be clear.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Exactly. Alternative options for how we educate young people. Yeah. That's That is not okay. That is not good. Thank you very much for leading our efforts this summer and fall. I really enjoyed participating. And as you know, I've loved CTE for a long time and we got a lot of it. A lot of the reports you have in front of you are the result of the work of this committee. We're moving this forward, but at a snail's pace. And I think I look forward to your presentation this afternoon Ed and then our discussion about where we go from here but I think one of the we have to figure out how to get the perfect and how we get to what we all want. And that's gonna take years, and it's gonna take money, and it's gonna take thoughtful architecture to design the plan to make that work. And how do we deal with them in between, and how can we figure out how to provide some of this now? I'd like to offer a suggestion.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Given that senator Weeks and I go back and forth, you know, from here to education,

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: which is Yes. They serve on both, senate education and senate.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: That you and the chair of education could figure out which pieces of these feel like whose jurisdiction, and I'm happy to weigh in or not because things end up falling through the cracks because no one's been clear about whose jurisdiction it is, and our witness list could have more of the employer side. Yep. You know, more of the what are the jobs that aren't getting filled? What what are the gaps that get people to employers in very broad strokes, and education can take up more of the what do the districts need to do to ensure seamless support for the student? Districts or supervisor agents.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We will have that exact conversation. Think that's a good idea to take them up section by section. Beth, thank you. You're welcome. It's good to know we'll have you on this journey. Thank you, Beth.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: You got me. Beth was the one who was like, okay. So this is, like, either a huge bill I can produce for you or, like, a vision, and I just did a great job of that.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think this I think a vision is really helpful. And, actually, I think it complements in large measure what AOE has proposed. And I think what our our real challenge is getting from here to there and improve things along the way ASAP. And then we'll be there and, you know, make we may or may not be alive. But we have a lot of they're building that bridge is I

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: think is what our challenge is. I I am gonna say in your lifetime, let's please do this because that's a

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: lot I want this by the time I'm 80, and I'm gonna be 80

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: in nine years. So let's get on it. And frankly, there are high schools that are going to bond, that are going to need some state support for their bonding and for their efforts. And I think there are ways for us to say, your your vision for your next high school has to include comprehensive education.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think that that was a great idea I heard you say earlier, which is something Maybe other states do that.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I think Oregon is moving in that direction, and Massachusetts is very on top of, like, with their building authority, they have a school building authority, allows them to be judged focused on, are you going to have a separate CTE center, or are you, is it built into your school,

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: and that I was just interested in

[Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: finding other state that done this, what kinds of results

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I I think we have Oregon and Massachusetts could be reluctant. So I have nonprofits that could find us other legislators or they work in multiple states, and they can talk about some of these benefits.

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Back and we have Tom and we have Ruth. Right. A lot of great resources. Ruth Turkey.

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Right. But I just I love talking

[Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: about things because we learn a new way. This is why we got all those conferences. And then we're gonna okay. Go ahead. Yeah. On that note, we're gonna, I think, take a a five minute break, and then we'll start again at 10:00 when senator Dulik arrives, and we will turn our attention to overtime for nurses as two seventy seven. We'll be back

[Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: in five minutes. Can I just say that was more of a skill dealt with on general? That