Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We are live.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Thank you. Great. Welcome, everybody. It is Wednesday, January, maybe '20. Maybe twenty eighth. Twenty eighth. Oh, not lose a day. On the twenty eighth. And it we are here at Senate Economic Development, Housing, and General Affairs, and today is Wednesday, so therefore, it's a day we're addressing economic development. And we're gonna begin with a proposal that we actually considered briefly last year, but all of us need refreshers, and it may be and if something we would like to include in our economic development bill. And so with us to introduce it is senator Wendy Harris Harrison, we welcome her from transportation where she's taking a wee break to introduce Weeksville. Thank

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Guest, Windham District)]: you. Thank you, madam chair. Happy to be here. For the record, Wendy Harrison and I am one of the senators for the Wyndham District, which is Southeast corner of the state. And happy to be here. You did see this bill last year briefly, it's S88 and it is proposing to provide an additional incentive to the Vermont Employment Growth Incentive Program known as VEGI. And there are currently two incentives. This one would be similar to what we call green VEGI, the clean energy incentive and this is an incentive for co ops and one of the challenges of when we were getting this bill together is defining co ops because there are a lot of different forms. Many of you know and we wanted to go with the widest net, basically. And the reason that I wanted to propose this, I want to propose this, I propose this, because I think it's beneficial for multiple reasons for the state to support employee owned and cooperative businesses. Generally, they are employers who pay higher wages. They typically have good benefits. They're rooted in the community. And something that I think is really important is investment of the in co ops and similar organizations stays in the state, or at least is much more likely to stay in the state. Because the value rarely, it's very difficult to acquire a co op if they don't want to be acquired, that's not their business model. So, generally stay in the state, the resources and the individuals. It's a

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: solid investment that's not going to go anywhere.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Guest, Windham District)]: Exactly, exactly. And so, one of the entities that I think it would be helpful for you to speak with is Chroma because they have received a FEDG grant, they were not a cooperative when they received the grant. So I think they would have an interesting perspective and they're not a co op, they're an employee of an ESOP. So what

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: if you kind of, and maybe this is the question

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: today, the difference between a co op and an ESOP?

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Guest, Windham District)]: ESOPs are more employee owned and they have to do with the retirement planning, so please let the attorney tell you so that you don't need to get two different explanations.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Guest, Windham District)]: They should be included in co op because they have many of the same benefits as co ops. Someone else to talk to is Matt Brock from Vermont Employee Ownership Center and someone who I think you really ought to talk to because I was not aware of these kinds of co ops is Michael Knapp. He's retired now, but he started Green River and that's a technology company that's co op and it's mission driven. Typically their rates are much less than the private sector or the traditional model, and they're in Vermont, they're a Vermont company that works for other states, and he can tell you a lot. I think just generally for economic development, even if you don't want to pursue this incentive, think it's good for the community to know that there are entities like that out there.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And currently, veggie is available to them. You're Oh, just wanting to add an additional. Sure, sure. And you probably want to talk a

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Guest, Windham District)]: little bit about veggie and just how, what I, my opinion on veggie is what I like about it, it's like you're on the board. Yes, yes, I'm on the Pepsi board, I represent the Senate on that board and there's one representative from the Senate and one from the House. And veggie is not an easy thing to do from the standpoint of the recipient. It's challenging, but it's also, it's very protective of state dollars because the dollars to the company are not given to the company until the company has shown and TRAPS has confirmed that they have had additional revenues because of Veggie and those additional revenues have come to the state. So, it's not speculative. Many states just will, you know, start a check to a company and say, just please be here for five years. And John Finney will say, great, thanks for the money. Know, after five years, see this is not the case. Vermont requires that the benefit be, it has to happen before the veg is paid. That's what makes it a challenge, but it also makes it better for Vermonters because we're protecting their money. That's same up until, I

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: think it was 2006, as I remember, if we gave the money out based on the Nancy Grant, and, we lost a lot of money because people didn't achieve objectives, and we already paid them the money and we couldn't get it back. We made a major change around 2006, 2007.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Was that one of your auditors before? Yeah.

[Sen. Wendy Harrison (Guest, Windham District)]: Well, thank you for that.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: There

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: have historically been a lot of issues also, but many of them have been cleaned out. More and more stuff has been done in the present program for Bennett. But I remember asking a company president as to why he had not participated in the program because he was growing and his business was growing. His answer was very simple, I won't lie. And that's interesting observation. Some of this gets cleaned up, but people will say, I'm looking at moving my company to Milwaukee, and maybe if I get some money from Pepsi, I won't do it. And people would, in effect, fabricate what they were going to do, and that has always been an issue looking at the BEPSI review process is, are they is the process sufficiently rigorous to identify situations like that and people who claim potential benefit to the state that is really nonexistent because they want money and no one actually would live in the first place.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. So if we take that, if we continue to take this up and maybe consider putting it into our bill that already addresses the veggie sunset. This existence. Yeah. We we could it would certainly be germane in another economic film. Thank you. We're gonna switch to Thank you. And go through and answer some of the questions we have. Thank you very much. And good luck in transportation. I mean, work on that transportation gap. We're working on the housing gap. Thanks. Rick, morning.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Good Good to morning. Be back in this committee. I have not been here yet this session.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, we get you all morning.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You do, like it or not. Rick Sable, Office of Lipsland Council, S-eighty eight, Senator Harrison, gave a good overview. Happy to answer questions or maybe start with a walk through. Madam chair, how would you like to

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think, I think particularly for new members, we haven't really discussed a veggie incentive growth in this committee. We might just overview, talk about, I think the questions that came up in Wendy's testimony were differences between co ops and employee owned businesses. Right. And And and incentives exist at the moment and and

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So, as far as the the legal definitions, I would need to come back to the committee and give you all I I don't feel comfortable giving you exact definition because I find them in this. They're they're cross referenced. So for example, on page four of the bill, we reference because it is a federal designation.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: The The co op.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Or no. The employee stock owner ESOP, employee stock ownership plans, Subdivision A1, is a cross reference. So it is a federal designation. Vermont, I assume, does have some companies that offer this, but like I said, I think if you would like a, you know, maybe I could create a, some kind of spreadsheet that kind of goes over those differences, because I'm not prepared to give you that detailed day, just And so

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: do we talk about co ops here? So uses that first before she uses ESOPs.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So, if you look, I'm on page four again

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Yeah.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Subsection a. We we loop in quite a number of these quote unquote cooperative businesses, trying to kinda catch as many as you can, in this definition. So employee owned business means these ESOP businesses that offer these plans to their employees. Right. It also includes a worker cooperative, Subduition two, which is either the federal definition or the Vermont definition of a worker cooperative, or subdivision C, an organization that is not legally defined as one of those two, but employees of the organization constitute a majority of its membership. Bottom of page four, members of the organization hold the majority of the voting support. Members of the organization have the authority to elect a majority of the board of directors on the basis of one person, one vote, and the organization allocates a majority of its allocated earnings and losses to members on the basis of patronage, capital contributions, accommodations of one and two, and they seek an incentive, which is just kind of ensuring that they are applying to being a veggie program. So that we're trying to pitch as many of these member owned companies as we can, But like I said, I can certainly provide more detail of what this means.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Which we do. I think it would be great. And we'll, I think, obviously have representatives, everybody from Jessica, Hartlaven, who runs the Veggie program to other people that people around the table would like to have included, and the three that Wendy mentioned.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: What would you just quickly review for us the incentives Veggie currently offers? So the there's the kinda underlying Veggie incentive where a business any business in Vermont doesn't have to be in a qualified market or a green veggie, I'll talk about that in a second, any business can apply for a veggie grant of money. There's an application process. They go through Pepsi, Pepsi reviews the application. And if I can, I'm gonna share my screen. Right. Kiara, if I can have that access. Yeah. Oh, I got it. Thank you. I'm gonna show you the statute which walks you through exactly The two incentives we currently have, which are Yeah, but let's start with this first one. We provide Pepsi with the application approval criteria. Pepsi makes the final decision about whether or not to approve an application, but there are certain things that it must meet in order for Pepsi to approve the application. Just gonna skip around here a little bit. So this is under 03:33. Am in Title 32, Section three thirty three-two. So for each award year, the business applies for an incentive that the business shall specify a payroll performance requirement, specify a jobs performance requirement, or a capital investment performance requirement, for growth, and provide other information that the council requires. So here are the main criteria. This is what they must consider. Except for an enhanced incentive for a qualifying market, the new revenue, the proposed activity would generate to the state would exceed the cost of the activities. So this kind of shows you the way that they fund these is through a tax consideration, that if your revenue is gonna be more than the cost of the state, the state deems that to be an incentive worth approving. Two, the host municipality welcomes new business. Three, pursuant to self certification for the documentation, the council requires by rule or procedure, the business attests to the best of its knowledge that it's not named in an admin order, consent decree, judgement The business complies with applicable state laws and rules. The proposed economic activity would conform to the applicable town and regional plans and with applicable state laws and rules. If the business proposed to expand within a limited local market, the incentive would not give the business an unfair competitive advantage over other Vermont businesses in the same or similar line of business. And then maybe most importantly, the but for test, subject to five. But for the incentive, the proposed economic activity, A, would not occur, or would occur in a significantly different manner that is significantly less desirable to the state. To me, I will speak for Pepsi, that gives Pepsi the biggest decision making authority, that they can determine that this is not gonna do the Bug IV test. That's currently how you apply for incentives, and section three thirty three is how you calculate the incentives. I'm not an economist. No, I'm sorry.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: To enhance incentives we have of

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: this Number one is the qualified labor market.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Qualifying labor market.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Area, yeah. Which is actually most parts of the state, if you look at the actual determination here. So the council may increase the value of an incentive business in a labor market in which the average annual unemployment rate is greater than the average annual unemployment rate for the state, or the average annual wage is less than the average annual wage for the state. So a year ago when I looked this up, Chittenden County sorry.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think Chittenden's the only

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: one that

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: does that.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's my last, but that was a year ago.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So every one of our other jurisdictions would qualify as a qualified

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I would double check that. Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And then the second enhanced incentive It's

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: not all about Chittenden County. Just

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: for No.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. But we're but you know what? We're thrilled that you don't need it. Yeah. And then the third, the second enhanced incentive is for

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Is Green Veggie. That's the colloquial term, environmentally environmental technology business. So this is a business that is subject to income taxation in Vermont. I assume that is to ensure they actually are here in the state physically. Right. And it seeks an incentive for economic activity that ACV certifies its primarily research, design, engineering, development, or manufacturing related to one more of the following. And you have a list of things here, waste management, natural resource protection, including water, wastewater purification, treatment, air pollution control, soil, etcetera, etcetera. And this is what the I'm sorry. No. Worker cooperative member owned incentive is based on this environmental technology. Right? Almost the exact same language. My understanding is that last year during the walkthrough, Betsy wasn't sure if that calculation was going to work, so we may want them then to provide what calculation they would prefer. Just want to put that out there.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So we now get to the is proposing in her bill that we add a third enhanced incentive, which is a higher incentive for businesses that are employee owned, member owned, and or employee owned or member owned swaps. Right.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: S-eighty eight, correct.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Great. And so I have, now we need to understand how many of those actually qualify, how many of our mature enough businesses to actually be able to take advantage of hedging and so that's what that's what we would be digging into. Any questions for Rick on this bill? I think one of the questions in our at least in my mind, and maybe in the rest of your mind is whether we would want to include this in our economic bill or no. It could just be on its own or it would be included given that we have the elimination of the veggie sunset in in this bill. Something we couldn't consider adding. I would like to I would wanna hear from Jessica to understand who's taking advantage of what at the moment anyway and how many more businesses this would actually affect. I think Wendy's point is a well taken one, which is employee owned businesses are do tend to be more firmly anchored in the month, and they're not going anywhere. Or your supply. Oh, it's your supply. Yeah. No. That that was you're that was a surprise.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah. And and it's a classic story of trying to grow too fast in a in a burgeoning online market during the pandemic, but it would've would've been nice to see if we could call that, say, employee.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We need would need to understand if they actually have reached out to do any of the difference. Who knows? But that is before us as an option. So options are everything. So we have this as an option for the. So welcome, Kesha. It's good to hear. Well, don't yeah. Sorry, I would just say

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I think the challenges, and Gartner's reply could be a good example of this, there's often a transition to employee owned once a company's really well established and it's being transferred from its founders or, you know, it's a really great tool. This just might not be the best incentive because it's not usually when they're going.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. This is the final stage. I I would view this incentive as after they've accomplished that and after they're established as an employee owned. Yeah. Not necessarily for Well,

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: one of the things that the Pepsi Board does in terms of evaluating, as they evaluate the potential life of the company, whether they're likely to be here and see how they think that that would be one of the things that they would do as part of their typical due diligence. I think one thing that would be interesting also, though, to look at is the history of employee ownership of businesses in Vermont and how successful they are. My sense is that the fallout rate is higher than but I don't know that Really? Oh, gosh. I don't know that

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We used to have the employee ownership Yeah. Person. We will have her person. We will

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: have that Matt prop. We will have Matt in the next Michelle Cooperston and then Matt crop.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Oh yeah. Remember when Michelle took that over and over. Oh yeah, she's my mother's neighbor.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Oh, how cool. So more to follow. Think about this. And then what I'd love to do is first discuss our housing bill and then move pivot right into our economic development committee, is where we're gonna collect some of these economic pieces. So just an update on the housing, which I've tried to talk to each of you. In a meeting yesterday with the pro tem and chair of senate natural resources, they had reviewed the housing bill as we have had it drafted. And there was a a request, a strong request. Hi, Linda. Welcome. To pull all the active 50 pieces that would mean pulling the design, the design by right design piece that Alex Farrell was supporting the that Orin has proposed, the extension of our interim exemptions and the opt in opt out. I requested that if we were gonna do that, three two things that I wanted for this committee. One is I really ask that the chair make sure that and the chair has voiced a real interest not a real interest, an objective of having a housing bill this year. So she and she wants to anchor it in that design by right piece. So I said, great. We welcome you having a a housing bill. In addition, I would like you to guarantee that you take up the opt in opt out and that you take up the exemptions or the interim exemptions. She agreed to do that. And I also asked the second piece is I asked for them to not take if we take those pieces out, that we not commit it to SNRE for further reviews or for that they would not own it and that it would not be sent to them, but that they would review it. And she agreed to that. So it is, I have to say with modest with heavy heart that I felt, particularly with the programs ask that we do review the bill that we're that we're currently looking at, but without those three pieces. But with the guarantee that you that people who would like to testify, I will we will chat with Anne and make sure that you that we get those they're definitely gonna be taken up and get you guys in to testify and that we will strongly support those in her committee. So anyway, so it's heavy heart, but that's sort of where we are. So we will have a clean draft for us to sign off on, hopefully vote on tomorrow at lunchtime. We'll have a draft today for you all to look at, which we'll set around. Thomas?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: So on this, it's my sixth year in this position, and I'll say this seems to be the recurring theme. Every year there's a tension between the jurisdictional authority of natural resources and housing. As I reflect on this role, we define those jurisdictional roles and why we have this not housing conservation board. I might contemplate not for this year, but in years to come. I think we would have better housing and conservation policy if we had the same individuals hearing the same testimony, and I would propose that maybe we need a Senate Natural Resources and Housing Committee rather than energy so that they are not going to imbalance the discussion or create these unnecessary conflicts so that we better have approached the topic of housing and land use rather than having these two committees where we put individuals that are passionate on both and then there's constant tension. That's a discussion for the coming years. I do think we need to continue to push on actual housing conflict if that really lands in the permit form that I think we have elected to do over the last years. So I'm hopeful that Senate Natural Resources truly takes this on and if any Well me. Wind, I can give you chair at your back to press

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: My nails are out there. I'm done.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: It's there.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: There's a

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: there's actually a good suggestion in there, or I'm just pulling a good suggestion out of there. Thomas, what Thomas We has could have a joint hearing. We did that at the beginning of last biennium when we said, we are doing the whole act. And we listened to the same witnesses. Mhmm. That was a lot on appeals. And, you know, there's we could we could do it again. There's new members of both committees, and maybe we could all hear that bill together so they hear how we think about these things. Can we hear how they

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think that's an excellent suggestion. We have talked about that. And I think in the next week or so, we it would be great to do it on appeals in particular because we're both getting that bill. We will have possession of that bill after it comes get voted out of SNRE. So I think particularly on appeals, let's let's plan on doing that next week.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I think it's you said something to me that, you know, I hope I'm not playing anybody's hand, but the natural resources is is interested in blueprints and and a housing tool kit. Yes. That's still very much our So maybe we just as they form a bill, we can have, like, a monthly joint meeting because I don't know I feel like that is reaching into what we do well. Maybe on those three pieces we could have joint

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yes. Joint hearings. Let me take that up with the pro tem and with the chair. I think it's a good idea. But but on appeal, it's definitely because we're both hearing this.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Right. Well and, I mean, if you look at my bill in general, tiers, like, all of it. So if we're I know we're keeping some of that stuff We're keeping roads. Yes. I know. If they wanna get into housing, we're doing it together. And I I support that. Good. They should.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It's up. About climate resilience. Yes. And housing. Housing and climate resilience. So with that, we will have Patrick, we will have a bill today. I think it's probably ready, and I will certainly have to all of you to take a peek at. And then I would hope that we could vote it out as a committee work in progress to go and then get recommitted. So today, we're gonna pivot and look at we're trying to take out our many economic development bill. And to do that, we're gonna we have both Pat to update us on what's currently in the governor's budget in terms of economic development. And we're gonna just look at what we pulled together for a starting point. And to do that, we have ready to go.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Have not left.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And we and I've asked members of the organizations, the resources that we included last year in our economic development bill. Really key resources for our small for our businesses in every stage of development. And we're really, as you know, trying to identify stages of development and what resources we offer, what the state and others offer in each stage of development that are substantive resources for those for those companies. We ask members of those organizations to be here with us on deck to answer questions if we have them as we go through this because this is a very condensed process. We have been asked to get a committee bill out by Thursday so that we'll that just seems stupid to me. But, anyway, there we are. We're doing it. To then it gets introduced and then gets sent back to us, and we'll be working on it for the next month.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: There we are. Take it away, Rick.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. Rick Sagal with the Office of Legislative Council. This is draft 1.2. No bill number yet because it's not been introduced. You have until third day to introduce it. So No. To vote it out of committee,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: and then it'll be introduced on the floor at some point and then sent back. Yes. You're right. And we've got to vote in. Yes.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So on page two, the purpose data this is an economic development.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So it's on everybody's desk. It is and it's online too for the public. It's draft twenty six zero seven five nine. That's it. Draft 1.2.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yep. Purpose statement, just to kinda set the stage here, the act proposed to strengthen and support Vermont's businesses and promote long term economic growth by investing in the economic development and vitality of its downtowns and development centers, providing key financial support, technical assistance, and incentives for Vermont businesses of all sizes and stages of development. Section two amends the downtown and village center taxpayer program. Currently in statute, the cap is $3,000,000. This bill would up that to $5,000,000 every year.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And just as we go through that, remember, in the governor's act, it's was reduced to three. They had been hoping for five. They can't say that. We can't. Who's he saying? The department.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Any questions about that section? About the downtown center of tenants? Section three contains

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: a Yeah.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: A few subsections about small business support. Subsection a, expanding legal services. So this was in, s one twenty two as it passed senate last year. It was removed or didn't when. You have it. Right? I do.

[Linda Brassi (State Director, Vermont Small Business Development Center)]: Oh, you have it somewhere on the right here.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Website, so we're just trying

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: to go on the same

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. The government has to make a note about that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: The department originally had five. It got during the budget process, got cut down, but pretty Right.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But so it's not we don't have $2,000,000.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We may.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We have

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: not been given our sandbox yet. I'm asking Andy for our sandbox. All of this is what we want, not necessarily what other people want. So I think that's where we really have to have it begin. Okay. Okay.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Back to, I'm on page three, section three, the expanded services for small businesses. The subsection a, as I mentioned, this was in s 01/22 last year, as it passed out of the senate. Mhmm. I can't remember if the house took it out or if one of the appropriations committees took it out, but you had a similar ask in your economic bill last year. Right. It was

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: S-one 122. So

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: similar wording of monies appropriated to the Department of Economic Development in 2027, 300,000 shall be allocated for the purpose of supporting the Vermont law and graduate school's public education offerings and free legal support to small businesses through its Vermont Small Business Law Center.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. And we have Nicole Killeran is maybe on deck. So so we've invited the people that we were working with last year to who've heard quite a bit of testimony on, and we are gonna have again. But I just wanna remind people that this was a federal begun under a federal grant. It's turned out to be enormously helpful for businesses as they particularly in early stage in start ups in early stage, figuring out what legal structures they want to form under, what the issues are for them. Linda's been very involved in this. And it is running it the federal money evaporates in June '26, that is this year. And so this is to keep it alive, basically, because otherwise, it has no support the governor's budget, and it has, at the moment, no federal support. There is hope, but at the moment, the federal support is the question mark. And just

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: to maybe clarify something for everybody. The way this is written is kind of the way appropriation wants it, so where ACCD, which is contains the Department of Economic Development, they would need to request this money. So the 300,000 would need to come from the big bill, and that could be negotiation. And that's your he's not on

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: him, which is usually a

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: good thing. But Pat when he's not an avenue, it's good. That can be done, but that's the way this this is not an appropriation. This is an allocation of appropriateness.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. So unlike some of the other requests that we're about to go through, there is nothing in the governor's budget. Correct. It did. Correct. But it is a program of high value and, the funding for evaporates in June.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Does this suggest that the that since it is allegated from the governor's request, is it modifying that request, or is there another 300,000 from someplace else that will replace this?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: None of above.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: None of the above. So the way this is written, it doesn't really have anything to do with the governor's request. This would the 300,000 is basically a call to the appropriations committees to say, you need to find this money. You cannot allocate this if it's not been called for. I may not use the right words here, but they would need to find 300,000 in the ACCD budget, either appropriating 300,000 or reallocating money to make that 300,000 floor for them.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: So this is an instruction then to our appropriations. Right.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And Andy and I are in conversation about the sandbox that we will have to plan every year. As you know, we're given an amount. And I I you know, this is, again, for us to discuss, and we'll take time to discuss it. But this is just to get the discussion, you know, just to anchor discussions. So the second piece

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: This is advising. This was also in your bill last year, and there is a governor's recommend, as a part of this, I'll explain our packet explain in a second. Yep. So of money is appropriated to the Department of Economic Development in twenty twenty seven, six hundred eighty nine thousand shall be allocated for a grant to the Vermont Small Business Development Center for the purpose of supporting the continuation of its work in helping Vermonter start, acquire, and grow businesses. So the governor's recommend is roughly $3.89.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: $3.80 this year. Is that right, Pat?

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. 389,000. And the bill that you're looking at explains on line six, This increase of 300,000 from the governor suggested budget will allow the center to serve an additional 200 Vermont entrepreneurs and business owners through no fee, one to one advising to help them start businesses, add, retain jobs, increase sales, export products, and prepare their ownership succession plans to transfer ownership for the business to continue to operate in Verizon.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And we will hear from Linda either now or in the future whether that is is still current, but we understand it is. That need is just growing, particularly with the cut in federal money that represents a cut of federal allocation. Okay.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You know the federal allocation for that one?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Then we're gonna turn to Linda Brassi.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. Thank you.

[Linda Brassi (State Director, Vermont Small Business Development Center)]: Yes. Linda Brassi, state director for Vermont Small Business Development Center. Thank you for that information. At this time, we are anticipating on the federal side, which comes from the small business administration level funding from calendar year 2025. We will know shortly within a few days possibly. They're considering a slight increase on the federal side, which means we're required to have an appropriate increase on our non federal match.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Bless you. Which will be figured out as appropriation for always done both with the arts council, the humanities council, several other entities like this. Will figure work that out in appropriate. So at whatever point it's helpful

[Linda Brassi (State Director, Vermont Small Business Development Center)]: to the committee, I'm prepared to give an update from last year on the needs and some of those critical stages and areas of advising that would be have the most impact and return on your investment.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: For our moment in time now though, your ask was I mean, level of funding would be $3.80?

[Linda Brassi (State Director, Vermont Small Business Development Center)]: So level if it was to the base is the $3.08 $8.08 89 stateside. Last year, we had one time funds of $1.50.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right.

[Linda Brassi (State Director, Vermont Small Business Development Center)]: Well, that's the weren't sure

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: until this week. Bill. Right.

[Linda Brassi (State Director, Vermont Small Business Development Center)]: What what was the level funding? Was it including that one time or whether it was back to the original base? It seems with the governor's budget, it is referred back to that original base.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Great. That's helpful for us as we move forward. Okay. And the third piece here?

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The third piece is the micro business support subsegment. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Just a question.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Are there new strings attached to the federal dollars like we're seeing in other about DEI or that fashion?

[Linda Brassi (State Director, Vermont Small Business Development Center)]: Our mission remains the same. Supporting all stages, all Vermonters, all entrepreneurs.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Subsection C, micro business support. This is a ECF allocation. 594,000 shall be allocated to the Office of Economic Opportunity for the purpose of supporting BCAP E Vermont Community Action Partnerships, MineGrow Business Development Program. And I am pretty sure this is in the government field you're recommending. Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It is. It is. This this made it, and we just are gonna need to advocate for it. As we know, this is a this is really our earliest stage investment of of time and energy, and we will have the CABAR, Community Action Partnership program, in to talk about it. But this is a this is, remember, spread out over five CABs, I believe. And so each of them have a micro business office. And this is just like we have this is one of our biggest banks for the buck. This gets people, and the reason it's anchored in the Department of Children and Families, it is considered a social, what's the right term? A social investment in in people who are low income and who have great ideas. And this is how Switchback started. I mean, a lot of very successful companies and surprisingly, a lot of service oriented companies that are the backbone of our property management businesses and home services and home care services. This program has really enabled a lot of that natural and organic growth from people who are at a tough spot and are growing their economic ability. Yes, Patrick.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I don't think I've introduced myself. Patrick, you join the fiscal office? And just to clarify, so the dollar figure you

[Patrick (Joint Fiscal Office analyst)]: see there is roughly a thousand a $100,000 more than what is in the Right. The job rank.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So we would be asking that's that's right. Then that

[Patrick (Joint Fiscal Office analyst)]: The job rank is four ninety three three three nine. That's right.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I code a spreadsheet. Yeah. It's too good. Yeah. But okay. Because I'm just getting it. I am not following what is existing monies that we're asking that agency to reallocate versus what's in the government's budget versus if we're putting a different figure than what This

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: is early days, and we will absolutely have that. Part of it is we we will have that in particular after we pick this up. We'll have it right away next week. So and I would just say because there are organizations we asked to support last year that are not here now. Partly that is because they are also taken care of in the Governor's Recommend. And Pat, maybe this is a good moment for you

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: to just say which ones they are. Sure. I can So the things I

[Patrick (Joint Fiscal Office analyst)]: was asked to look at, so there was the professional's compiler, which is an ACCT that has a 60,000 base perforation in it. Microbusiness, which we were just talking about, is the 04/3339, which is also based funding. Rick has talked to you all about, in the governor recommend $500,000 in one time funding, and then there's that, the International Trade Division at ACCE, which is in the gov rack with one time funding of 150 Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. So we're about to go through those sections.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I just I just

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: wanted to mention that the business advising that sustainable jobs funded proposed last year isn't here. There are a number of other things that aren't here this year, but then certainly up up for discussion. But Alright. Those are the ones where moving. Sorry. Okay. Section four

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: on page four, line 15. The Vermont Outdoor Recreation Economic Collaborative, as Pat said, there is, in the governor's recommend, 500,000 currently going to OREC. This is an additional 200,000 that would be allocated to conduct a comprehensive outdoor recreation study that will provide a better understanding of what is and is not working in the $2,800,000,000 outdoor recreation industry. That money would be needed for that study.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So it's an economic impact study, really. It's not just what's been and what we're obviously figuring this out, but it's a big asterisk economic impact study.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: And that's not an all the course of business in the May No. Year

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And we'll hear we'll hear about that.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Alright. '65. Yeah. Is in the governor's recommend, showing you support of the section five, the International Business Office, 150,000 in 2027 to the International Business Office for the purpose of continuing to support the office initiatives. This is the Montreal office trade office that must be got has gotten several one time appropriations in the last few years to continue operating. Yep. Section six, the Brownfields allocation of monies appropriated to the Department of Economic Development. In 2027, 3,000,000 shall be allocated for Brownfields remediation and redevelopment. Not in the governor's record.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Very disappointing. I think we allocated for exactly the same amount last year, and we ended up with two as I recall.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I think that's $1.22, but maybe in a different bill.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll just Right. Who do

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: we hear from from the administration and the rationale for fixing this?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We will have them. Okay. Matt Chapman is on deck. Not, I think, not the agency's choice, agency naturalism, but I don't think it is their choice.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: So then who from the administration could I just wanna know why why. What's the rationale?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I'm not sure that they will publicly tell you, but we're gonna have Matt Chapman in to talk about the need.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Besides, of course, Jamilion or, you know, $8.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. I think That's why they don't In that conversation, I think we probably have to have offline for us to have a real understanding.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Section seven.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I I will just say I was profoundly disappointed to have, like, nothing in there for that. It's just really sort of surprising. Okay. Sorry. It's how

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Section seven. This looks familiar because a version of this was in the economic development committee of last year that got eventually stripped out. It's back, but it's changed a little bit. So this would be a task force to address business development in Vermont. So kind of a bit of a background here. Last year, you created a task force to really look more at capital for small businesses, how they can access capital, ways to get either state funding or private private funding, venture capital. That in the house became a study, and then it was eventually stripped out totally. So there was no task force or study on this. It is being recreated here at section seven. So the purpose would be to identify how Vermont can better enable and support business growth through every stage of development. The task force shall identify what resources are currently available to small businesses and what additional resources are needed to promote growth. How remote it impacts. Yeah,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: this is really all stages of development. It's not just for small business. This is really for us to do an inventory of the resources we offer because it is not clear. This came up in the VEPSI, I think I've already said this. This came up in the VEPSI conference when people were talking about small businesses and why they couldn't access that gene part.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Was that part of the lab affair?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. You were there for that. When I stood up and said, we need to do a better job articulating what resources are available for one stage of business development. And that's what this group of people would do, which is really do an inventory of that and look at what do we offer in all stages of business development and really also continue to explore how can the state effectively partner on access to capital because it's a modestly off it it's not an obvious answer on that, and every state does it slightly differently. And we have failed to do much of a job on this. And it's one of the things business is is always calling out for is having a better access and having a more effectively access capital and not.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So I just don't receive the membership because if it's all people who are supposed to be doing this anyway, Like, I just wanna make sure that Well, this is this is subject for discussion. Yeah. This is

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: something for this but I guess what I wanted to say just in one is it's it's not just to small businesses. It's for all businesses at all stages of Right.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So for example, like, change the story, I think, did a great job on this topic. Yep. Make up a third of registered entrepreneurs in the state, but 9% of the access to capital. Yeah. There are things we there are things some of us know, others don't know. Exactly. But like, are we giving them a charge that is clear enough and has the right people at the table to understand what What that is. I mean, it's a huge it's just a huge charge and maybe we narrow it in some way or something. But it's you know I have had a huge issue with access to capital for women, new Americans, people of color, and we have pointed this out to Right. To folks. But we haven't had a we're really focusing on this to come back to us with recommendations.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So that is what this is designed to finally, hopefully do. And this is the beginning of of the membership competition. May not be the end.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. So

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: I think this kinda nibbles around the edge. I think that at some point, we need to initiate an effort that really says why Vermont's economy has stagnated for decades with the exception of Chittenden County. And I don't think that focusing on women only or folks of color or small businesses is going to provide the answer we need to make some significant changes in the state's economy to bring us into the twenty first century. And I support the task force, but I think it's it's missing the part. It's an opportunity. If we're gonna spend money, bring people together, how that bigger conversation.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So let's figure out what additional language we would add and whether this is the group to do it.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Well, I wanna see if you have an appetite. That's

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: How much money is in here?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Let it's just the the cost of

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: running up

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But that adds up to what? Like It's

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: just one two legislators. It's two legislators and the health of Ledge Council and JFN.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: No. I'm just asking because if I would put Kevin Chu in charge of a committee on economic mobilization and ask him what money he needs to do that and let him take whomever, that's what I would do.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So, we can look

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: The at usual committee that talks

[Linda Brassi (State Director, Vermont Small Business Development Center)]: and Yeah.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Recommendation that they pay no attention to and we can monitor that.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And we should hear these whole committee committees, all five of them. I don't want

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: to understand. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We started with this group. I wanna make sure we have the executive director Hula on it. I mean, there are a ton of other people to have on this. And we've just started with because ACCD oversees this, one would hope that it's well, that's where the economic development goes to the bank pass.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: But to senator Weeks point, I I definitely I'm proud of the growth that Chittenden County has had. I want that growth throughout the whole state of Vermont. So as much as I love Hula, Hula, they are in Chittenden County. So I would want this initiative to definitely broadly based and focused on on the entire state outside of the growth areas that have already been successful. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I I think that's a key addition to add to this, which is how can we better expand business development across across the state or however we come up with the con Richmond. I think that's great that would be a great addition. Call that.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: But That's a call. He said, hello, Rutland. It's a callback. I laugh here.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I'm all about Rutland. It's like

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It is.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I would just say the question is, should we all do this work together? Should we be hearing this from people when they come in? These are all people who talk to And us should we all have the same information tailored to specific recommendations about what we can do? Just redo that. Okay. Just don't want another task force. I we don't. And it's probably gonna get stripped out.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I don't think it will be stripped. I hope it won't be stripped out.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Well, we have to pick, like, one task force. It's definitely one.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I would just like to say. But as the person who arranges for the agenda for this committee, that on three or four hours a week, we are not gonna be able to address this fully this year, given we have a month and a half before I mean, not even a month and a half before cross over. So that is why, as we all know, we often delegate some of the work and we can be really prescriptive about it, but we delegate a lot of our work to task forces that do generally good job and come back to recommendations that we either have the political will to do or not do. And I would say that that is our challenge is we do not have enough hours in our three hours a day to to address this fully, and that is why I would suggest we put together the task force we want. And I think that would better serve us than I mean, I think we obviously have to understand the problem right here in this committee, but and we have certainly heard a lot of it. So but I do think to move it forward, I I think we need recommendations from a group that's really gonna be laser focused on this and working on it and then coming back to us with recommendations. And I would absolutely entertain. I think it would be great to have some additional language on looking at how we can help every state of the every section of state flourish and what are the barriers to that. But I I I do think that, you know, we just don't have the hours in the day to do what I I do want.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I just think Lyle Jepsen is, like, an incredible person to just say, what what do we need to do? Like I think It's one person. It's going to look different in every part of the county. Hula's gonna have something very different to say than Lyle. But Mhmm. I think he's a very good choice for, like, what we need to do to help places that really need access to capital, access capital. And then most of the rest of this bill are people telling us, we need access to capital, and here's what we need, and here's how we would distribute it to people who don't have access to capital. That's one piece of this. Why don't you just finish going through it and

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: then we can see. Sure. And Lyle is certainly one person. However, as you will remember, in committee, I asked Lyle what his asks were for economic development this year and he didn't have any. So I would suggest that we need to be clear on what those asks are for our for businesses to flourish across the state.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: To that point, I would love to hear from areas, which I'm I'm gonna pick Rutland again Yeah. From your regional development corporation director and others in that area, in the areas that are admittedly or otherwise concretely evaluated as having less economic growth. What do they want to hear? So I'm not against any of these people on here, but rather than just broadly getting the same characters, I I

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: This is not the same character. Okay. Just Sorry.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I I don't know who the character is. But I would love to hear from your area as to what they specifically would like to see us focus on. Sure.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And and the Northeast Kingdom. Sure. And, you know, every every every area. Why don't we just quickly go through this, and then we can and see who we might get. I I think, Kevin is a a great addition here, which

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Can I ask one more clarifying question? Are you saying the the business owners wouldn't get a per diem?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. They get compensated as all task force people get compensated. So as three members so why don't you go through it, Rick, then we can Sure.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Because the appropriation you said was just for two legislators.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, it's for everybody who who puts in for a a per diem or a hazard force compensation. Most people who are employed don't tend to do that as we I've watched other study committees. People who are employed tend to serve as a part of their employment.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I may defer to pound this. It depends on if it's part of their job.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Right. If you're in a startup. No,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: no. And it's $50 a day.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: They have the statutory right to request a per diem. Okay. The membership, it's a member of the House, appointed by the Speaker, a member of the Senate, appointed by the Committee of Committees, the Secretary of ACCD or designee, the Executive Director of the Vermont Small Business Development Center or designee, the Executive Director of the Vermont Community Action Partnership, or designee, the Executive Director of the Vermont Sustainable Jobs Fund, or designee, the President of the Vermont Regional Development Corporations, or designee, three members appointed by the governor, a business owner of a startup, a business owner or manager of a middle stage company, and a business owner or manager of a secure company.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And we have obviously a bunch of suggestions of additional people or people instead of people. But, Kevin, that is obviously the chamber floor designee would be I very much would like to have, you know, VSET or Hula represented on this group too because they represent a whole range of businesses. Is

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: the term business owner or manager kind of exclusive to people? Like, we defining that? What if they consider themselves an entrepreneur but they haven't incorporated?

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Well, I think that's I think that Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. So they don't have

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: to be bona fide in some way as a business owner.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Maybe up to the governor. Right? So the governor would take somebody that he believes is either an owner or manager of these three things.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Auditically represent. Right.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: We could be more accurate to answer your question. You want to be more detailed, certainly can.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Do those terms have definition?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Start up, middle stage, mature. And

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: we can't afford it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And that's a piece of what I'm you know, I think that those of us who've been working on this since that Pepsi conference, I think what that part of what we're hoping for is that there are and there are definitions around those, but that we fill those out and figure out what we actually offer for each stage. And there are four you know, I think the fourth stage are identified, but so why don't you keep going?

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Powers and duties of the task force in determining how to better enable business growth and development in Vermont. The task force shall do the following, Aggregate resources available to businesses at each stage of development, including startup, early stage, middle stage, and mature companies determine which additional resources are necessary to better serve, businesses for each state of development Identify how best to market and communicate resources found in those previous few determinations and the business community. Determine the state's role in accessing capital, including the investment environment in the New England region, the availability of tax credits to leverage private capital, and insurance for the current Tech Club designation. Identify ways to offer investor education to high net worth individuals interested in investing in Vermont businesses, and then address any other related issues as per the task force.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Does it make sense for this committee to hear a presentation from the New England investment group that presented it? That'd we heard about yeah. Like, we heard what the investment environment in New England is and the whole country.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. It it it would. I think that this this is an an issue that every state wrestles with and deals with differently. Every state you know, there are states that have set up actual capital funds. Right. I'm just

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: saying we've paid we've paid them.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And, sure, I'll have to ask Jessica if we could if if they could distill it to an hour, that'd

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: be great. But I think they were less than an hour.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: They were very good. Yeah. Okay. And then this report would come and hopefully be something for us to act act on

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: next year, which would be great. I I would say, I think the tax department is the only group that knows the availability of tax credits. I don't know who else in this list would be comprehensively knowledgeable about that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: The treasurer's office and the text. And they and and we the the Oh, there we go there? No. The task force can bring anybody they want. Oh. That's okay. I mean, they don't have to be on the committee. Our stakeholders, hopefully, would be called as needed. So, I mean, don't, all the stakeholders don't have to serve I on that

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: mean, they do hear about tax credits.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And we all have, I will remind everybody, we have the tax expenditure bill. It is published at the beginning of each by ending, and it's online on the JASA website. One

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: clarification, the assistance. I have ACCD. I don't have Ledge Council. We typically support legislator only committees.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Haven't had that discussion, but I don't see really

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I had had put it in that it would be joint distal and lunch counts.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right. And, again, that's my office is pretty much said that we held legislative committees at this point. If it's made up of legislators, there's only

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: that much confidence. That was not my understanding. My understanding is we only have legislators serving on it.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. I can add it. I will talk to my Great.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Let's do that. Then Chief counsel about that. Right.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Okay. Let's keep going. Reports you mentioned, Madam Chair, November 15, there will be a report due along with any legislative action that we they recommend to be taken. The meetings begin August 1, and the task force ceases December 1.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So it's up to eight meetings is the amount of per diems. They can be boarded at eight times, but the per diems are capped at eight. It's a pretty, you know, August 1 to December 1. I was gonna ask you if that's the time you wanted. That's pretty limited. It's just four months, five months.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: If they can get started. If they need more time, they can just like the Convention Center. They can come back to us and ask.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I might then suggest that we push back the tasks subversion four on page eight. The task force shall cease to exist on December 1. Okay. Let's Maybe push that back.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: You know what? We don't even need to say that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No one needs to say when it will end.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You generally wanna have, for appropriations reasons, wanna have an end date to a task force.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So then why don't we make it what you suggested? July.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. That's not bad. So sometime next 2027.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: July 1. How about June '37? Okay.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That's calendar responsible.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Right. This right now is planned to be ended at the end of the year. The report is due on the November 15.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It it could be a report or or and they can also ask for it to be an update and that their work is so substantial. They'd like

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: to We can also ask,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: say, a report or interim report, given the the scale of this.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You wanna write an interim to give them that?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: What does the committee feel?

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: Happy.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I mean, I I think that's a big piece of work. It's a lot of work.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: And it's important to me.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Then let's ask for an interim report for the

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I mean, I think the only I think you need to cut out the number of things you're asking them to do. That's the only way I could even I see the way I

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: think it's important that it needs to be done, but it needs to be done timely. We should have something, they've worked on it for what? Five months?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Four months. I mean, why don't we take out the things that are available to us without Because one of

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: the key things that has to be done, we need to do a better job, and that would be working with whether it's Heather Pelham or whoever's gonna market this. One of the one of the needs is for the state or whoever to own marketing what we have available to all stages of business development. We do a lousy job as we discovered in the Pepsi conference. We do a lousy job of letting everybody know what's available to them at what stage of build.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Is that the goal of this task force? Is to give tourism and marketing?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. It's one piece is to actually inventory the resources that are available for businesses in all states. The what resources are there in the state?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I feel like that's Lyle's job. Well, hasn't been done. I mean, I think he needs time to do that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We could charge that as one avenue for us to discuss, which is charging ACCD with that job and economic. We could certainly do that. But that needs to be done. And then we need to figure out how we're going to market and develop it. And that also could be the Department of Economic Development. That is we could also charge that that's a that's a good way of looking. These are issues that we need to discuss and figure out how we're gonna do a better job, and that may be the best way to do it is

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: to I think we're just setting this large group of people up to by telling them you have to do five different things with subcategory of things certain groups have asked for or have access to that are not in this group. Tourism isn't on here, so if you want economic development and tourism to work together Right. To articulate what business incentives are available. That sounds great. That feels really different than all of this.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That is that is part of what what what is hoped for. So this is really just to get the conversation going. And if there I think we are all open to best ways of accomplishing what we want. I think we all want the same thing, which is we wanna better articulate resources available to us, figure out how we market those, and then in addition, address what are the resources we don't offer, where could we do a better job, how could we do a better job statewide, and how we can really provide a clearer access to capital.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: So this does not need to be a perfect job?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We're gonna

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: pass it out, we're gonna bring it back, and we're gonna work on it. It should be a lot of time to finesse this.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Thank you. I'm just saying, if we don't finesse it, it makes it very easy for appropriations to strip out. I agree with you. That, yes, cause.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: But they won't see it stripped out until we're done with the second?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: That's what I'm saying. If we, like, I don't know that I'm hoping, I mean, like, I could rewrite this outside of committee to just be very narrow. I don't know how much committee time is spending on a task force.

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Relevant for the effort. Believe it's a completely relevant mission of pandemic.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I think we'd be better, if you think it's really relevant, I think we'd be better served hearing what we already have because then we could actually make policy that helps us with that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, that's the objection. The objection is to actually understand and do an inventory what we actually have.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It's gonna be a lot of appendices to things that maybe we should all have knowledge of. Right? Like, we just heard a report that was paid for by the state on the investment, landscape in New England.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Which we heard at the Vepsie Club.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: We could all hear that in forty five minutes, and that often helps other people hear it too. Inevitably. I think that would be a better use of forty five minutes than saying go find that and a pen

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Should I didn't send a pen? Well, I think that this I think that from this robust conversation, I think clearly we want to articulate what we want and what we need and who should do it. And I think that is the conversation we need to have. And so I am open, you know, and I think we all and that's the job of this committee. Is we really wanna better serve economic development in this state. And I think to do that, in part, what has become very clear to me is that we're not clear all businesses are not clear on who to go to where. 39% of new businesses don't know where to go and have not asked for any of the resources available to them. The study that was done, and I can't remember who did that study, but I do that number just stuck out in my brain that we have a bunch of people who don't know where to go or how to access health. And we have that help and we don't have it everywhere. So what we have, what can we add, Who can do it? How do they access it? And how can we serve Vermont business better?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I just say, let's take number three then and make that double charge for a year. It's gonna take them a year just to figure out how to market and communicate resources

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: to provide So, actually, I think there are a bunch of ideas. And during our break, I'd love to actually put them together and we can chat with Rick about how to redraft this. But I'd it rather than doing it just like that, I would rather have a four I'd rather just look at it quickly before we do that and then make a suggestion for Richard to write because I think that's that's a good idea, but let's just do that. So I think we were going to take a break in a few minutes. I think let's just finish this, Bill. Sure. Take a break. David has to go, and and we'll reconvene after we I think we'll figure out what we're gonna be.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Subsection g, the compensation reimbursement standard per day of language. Yep. Reimbursement for lip sitters and, non language centers for eight up to eight meetings. The statute does clarify, think it's thirty two days a ten ten, that you're not otherwise compensated by your employer to attend the meeting. Right. You get per damn reimbursement.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The money comes from ACCD. So again, this is something where ACCT, not from the general fund, ACCT will need to find the money, and that could be a budget appropriation discussion. And Pat can maybe fill all the blanks there, but it's we're not making appropriation here. ACCT would need to find the money in their budget or their appropriation or the just for the produce.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That is anyway, I think that needs to be reviewed. I I don't that's very unusual. That that that doesn't happen.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I may defer to pound. That may be the current way that appropriations wants those per deems to be I don't care.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That is not that that is not an a c I I don't think that's appropriate, and I don't think that that I mean, I think that's

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So how would you like that to be awarded? From the general fund?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It's all it's done from our legislative fund, generally. I mean, I you know, we'll where is it done from, Pat? You're our expert.

[Patrick (Joint Fiscal Office analyst)]: So Scott Moore, who works on this Yeah. Does usually incorporate a little bit of wiggle room into the budget to account for equity income. However, when there are, you know, a path course or a study committee like this typically will end up, if it ends up in the budget, will show up as its own line item as the appropriation for it. I think in this instance, you're talking about people who are eligible for freemium for enough meetings that would probably be its own appropriation. That said, I can always check with Scott to see how much room there is in the legislative budget, but I will note that there are certain mix of members on this board, task force that are not legislators that are eligible for DMs. So that kind of a question is

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. Let's ask Scott. Yes. Because we always build in legislative studies. Yes. These are the budget. There's always wiggle room for it, and I have never chewed to a point. To a point. Trudeau. Got it. Okay. Let's keep let's finish up.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Section eight is bringing over the veggie repeal of the perspective repeal. I forget the there's a I think f two two five also has this language, but bringing this over, this would basically remove the perspective sunset of Veggies set for 01/01/2027 so Veggie would be able to live on indefinitely upon repealing this section. Again, currently set to repeal on 01/01/2027. Section nine, there was the, you may remember, the task force to study the development of a convention center and performance venue that was in your economic development bill last year. That did pass and was created. There was a request to, allow that group to meet additional times. So the law last year limited to six times. Right. This would have it to 14.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And they're meeting currently once a month. Thomas on this committee. Have the update and review from them, and they asked that they continue and they can they continue through the end of this year.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Makes sense to me. I think they're doing good work.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. And that was the impression we got.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So It's just simply did like their report. And I will say, senator Chittenden and I are going to a meeting tonight of experienced Shelburne. I think what's really valuable about that is as a resident of Shelburne, the community partners, the select board, the town manager, and others have never been more aligned to try and make something like a performance venue happen. And that's generally what it takes is a community having the alignment to say, you know, we all want this and we'll work to make it happen. Yeah. Absolutely. And key ingredient.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And I think as the as the task force reported, they wanna pursue both those two things in very different paths. They wanna separate out the performance venue and the conventions that are at the end separately. I will say I

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: keep broadening. Sorry.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I I think there is a policy committee of jurisdiction that needs to look at the governor's $22,000,000 request for Oh, yes. UVM's event center. And

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I thought it was a stadium. Terrence Multipurpose.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: But we already have a steel board. I agree.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And I don't know if that's education. I brought it up to Seth and

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That took Somebody

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: needs to say this is a good use of the higher ed trust fund or not. True. Not.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Well it's because of an influx in the estate, there is a additional capital, but I agree it's a conversation that should be heard.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Is that money better used for programs in higher ed that are helping people get jobs? Right. Sure. I don't know who's gonna hear all of this before it gets to appropriation.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: On previous point, and I agree, you absolutely should take that up, but on the previous point, the other thing I've been advocating on this task force for the convention center and event center, but I don't think it's about one event center. I think it's about how did the state adopt policy that allows for communities to have congregation point, which they've doing since the ancient Roman times, and it's built communities. So I want Rutland to have an event center. I wanna make it easier for you to build an event center. It's just too hard to build anything in the state. I also want Shelburne to do one thing. So just looking at ways to stay because it's easier to build the infrastructure, municipal planning, and otherwise for these things. Not just about one. The convention center, I think, has to be in Burlington, to be honest with you. So that's a very Burlington specific conversation. We could have that discussion. But as for event centers, that's where, the focus of

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And I think actually if your committee, if your task force takes on this idea of a statewide, like, four or five Yeah. Key point, you wouldn't end up with a fish concert on a farm that was inappropriate with no transportation access and mud. So What about

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: the original wood stock? Yeah. Right. Well, and

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: that was a Tidiest factor. Not much has happened there since. So have actually, thoughtfully plan out. Even if it is on a farm, it has to be have enough facilities and transportation access and all the and and lodging facilities around it to make it possible. But I think that's a great idea to actually roll out that kind of recommendation. Yeah. What the

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I mean, yeah, perform we need performance venues all over.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We need performance venues, but not at the scale Thomas has been talking about. Correct. We do not have the odd set how many people thought.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Memorial Auditorium is now given up, but I don't think Burlington has has any

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: But how many did it see?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: 5,000. Five, six thousand.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Yeah. Really?

[Sen. David Weeks (Clerk)]: Small. I Or maybe 15.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I didn't know where to end. I'm going to

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: some great concerts at Memorial, but I can't imagine 5,000 people going

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: into I think

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I went to one of last conferences.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Going to the odd, don't you?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Of course.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. You remember 5,000?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Good.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think 5,000 negative. A good one. I don't think But even if we had one that was able to take 2,500, that would be thrilling. I think Flynn, what, 50 No. Because Flynn is When

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: we do when we do 5,000, it's UVM or the waterfront.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Because the stadium. You mean talk about the stadium at UVM?

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: UVM the gym.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: The the the gym.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: 2,600.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Sure. How many?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: 2,600.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Was it the odd? The Memorial Auditorium. Yeah. Memorial Auditorium. I've never heard

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: the odd before, but yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Sorry. In Buffalo, we call it the odd.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So Joe

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: you'll hear Joe and me talk about this, the odd. Okay. The Memorial Of The Journey. Okay. 2,600. Great.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So but I I am curious. Did we are we what level of performance venue are we at? That's they're discussing and coming back out. Because Shelburne Museum does outdoor concerts with thousands of them. The church

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: and the web at that Shelburne Farm used to do all the outdoor concerts.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And if we wanna go to a real concert, we go to Montreal.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Those have to be that way.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: That's Thomas' point. Let's let's reclaim that. I think the only place that could accommodate what you're thinking of then would be a performance venue at UBN. I mean, that is that we looked at Memorial and everything in Burlington to say. And if South Burlington builds pedestrian safe, you know, crossing of 89, we basically talked about it would be from one side or the other of of 89.

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: So

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So that is what we're looking for from the task force is exactly that kind of creative thinking on how we accommodate that need. It's the Patrick. Right? Randy. And then

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: that from of course, what's the date? I

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: was not sure we identified that. We certainly extended their ability to meet, but let's we would hear back from them, I assume, in January.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Maybe we could have them in as we talk about the events that are yeah. Or somebody Good idea. Like, that's that's the only related conversation. Let's marry those two.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: They are to report 11/01/2026 is the final report. So the interim was November 1 of last year. Final report, 11/01/2026. For the

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So sorry. What is November 1?

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: For the Convention Center Task Force. So we

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: already have that in staff.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No. Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. So 11/01/1926. That's the final report. Great. Okay.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Perfect. Uh-oh, sorry.

[Patrick (Joint Fiscal Office analyst)]: I just wanna flag that this is another task force that I have with the additional meetings. There's inviting per diem accountability. So, again, as you're thinking about per diems, your task forces and dollars keep adding up.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: There's one legislator, two legislators on this.

[Patrick (Joint Fiscal Office analyst)]: Are there any other, sorry, I don't remember the exact composition. Is there any other per diem?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That's tough.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I can be. You actually are probably a copy of corporation.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: My favorite to you is to also ask Scott what money has actually been expended on this task force. Sure. Because my guess is very

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: First of I didn't put in per diem, so Same. Half is what you see.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Well, so not there is there is the

[Patrick (Joint Fiscal Office analyst)]: the phenomenon where everyone eligible for your You

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: need to actually was spent on.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But I bet you still, no matter what, you took appropriate amount of Going forward, but I'd also would

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: like to know what was actually spent this year. And who was the house member?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Abby Duke.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Abby. Right.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So here it is. This is act 65. This is what the task force was created in. This is what actually was enacted. Remember the House, the Senate, Commissioner of Department of Economic Development, the President of the Vermont Chamber, the CEO of the Lake Champlain Chamber, the President of the Vermont Regional RDCs, the Chair of the Vermont Association of Italian Development Agency or Designate. So those seven people, and I will also note the language is the same for the appropriation, that is monies for legislators, money is appropriate to the general assembly, for other members that are not legislators, ACTD. So I can mirror that language a little bit, if you wanna have it that way, because this is what appropriations want at the very end, how to structure it. Okay. We could think about it. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. Thank you. The structure of line

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: is essentially the same as here.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The administrator Who's gonna do the work? We're gonna put the

[Sen. Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: reports together. Who's going to do the administration?

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Administration of the report or The report of the project.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: The center, it is The task force itself.

[Rick Sagal (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Through ACCD. But It

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: it's through ACCD.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I mean, whoever wrote whatever report we got did a great job. They deserve to be paid the millions of dollars we give to other people that don't No.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: They did a a great job. That was very we talked a lot about who was gonna own that one, and Yeah. They given that there was a proposal from the business community to have this, to finally pull all those strings together that have been fairly desperate about these two these two pieces, the convention center and the performing arts center, made sense that ACCD oversight made. In this case, I think and and it made make sense. So I would suggest we take a break now. I'd love to when you come back, we're gonna start again. David is gonna disappear for the agency of education gathering at it goes at their offices up at National Life, and we will miss you, but we will reconvene at 10:50.