Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: I just need to connect to the Zoom.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Okay. Greg, well, I can begin. Welcome back to the Center of Economic Development, Housing, and General Affairs. It is still Wednesday the fourteenth, which is our youngest son, William's, 30 birthday. I'm so proud of him. And I'm just vamping while Kevin gets his slides ready. But I saw Kevin's report in Vermont Biz Magazine first and then in all the other news outlets having heard Kevin present at the State Workforce Development Board, which was a little different. And then this report that he's gonna touch on here is was so grim and frustrating that I felt like, woah. We just need to get with Kevin in sooner rather than later as we address creating an economic development bill and a housing bill that we need to be both looking at what where we are and what your recommendations might be so that we can actually have some impact on some of the data you're gonna present to us. So are you now ready? Did I ban a formula?

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: It seems like Zoom is starting to connect, but I'll begin with some remarks before sharing my screen. So the report that you're referring to is the Competitiveness Dashboard, which was recently launched and, to your point, has received quite a bit of attention, and it is getting people talking in a good way, right, because whenever we can have data informed conversations around the state, that's a really good place to start, right? Data doesn't necessarily always contain all the answers, but it helps us to ask better questions. So with that, I'll just say a few more words about the dashboard itself. As I mentioned, data help us to understand where we are, how we got here. But one of the points that I always try to make is data is not destiny.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Thank you. And I really I I did actually remember that as I was reached dashboard.

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Great. So that was one of the core principles too behind our economic action plan that we launched about a year ago now. May I have a copy of it here with me? It's also why the Vermont Futures Project created this

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: You are right behind us. You're not filming yourself.

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Alright. I'll share my screen in just a sec. So this dashboard is a compilation of a range of economic indicators that show where Vermont ranks relative to the region and relative to the nation as a whole. When we have economic development conversations, it is important to expand our scope beyond just what's happening in Vermont, but the economy doesn't end at the state border. We have to be attentive to regional and national trends and figure out how to make Vermont competitive in that national context. Rankings in this dashboard are sorted from number one representing the highest relative performance and 50 or 51 representing the lowest relative performance. And the reason why it's 50 or 51 is some of the metrics include DC. So, though the data do reveal some strengths, there are far more areas that need urgent attention, the dashboard serves as a basis for comparative analysis too. We can take a look at other states that are ranked ahead of us, indicators that we want to improve on and start to examine what are the policies or strategies or economic development initiatives they are implementing that can perhaps be adapted to a Vermont context. So in that way, use this as a resource for that comparative analysis and research. The dashboard is, to me, a reality check for where Vermont is. It's a call to action.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Yeah. Where where we

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: go That's why you're here.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: It was a callback. Yeah. Where we go

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: as a state from here is a choice. It's one that can and should be informed by data. If ignored, the trend lines will continue and data will become destiny. So with that, I'll share my screen, we'll take a look at the dashboard, and then we can have a conversation about any of the metrics you want to dive Yeah,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: and we're just beginning. I mean, we're only in week two of the session.

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Here we are. So at the top of the dashboard, you'll see the population and housing permits updates. These are the two main pillars within our economic action plan, people and places. You'll see that Vermont ranks quite low on both population change, number 49 out of 50. Are you wanting to share your screen? I did, but I got to get to the Zoom. Looks like I'm reconnecting.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: But we have it also here if you want to sort of. Great.

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: We can walk through as the Zoom is reconnecting. Okay. I accidentally got kicked out. There I am. All good now? Good. Perfect. Okay. So as I was opening with the People in Texas framework feature at the top of this dashboard, you can see that Vermont ranks number 49 out of 50 in 2024 for population change. In fact, we were one of three states that was estimated to lose population. And with this dashboard, you can see this quick summary. You can also click on each of these tiles and it'll pull up the data so you can do that comparative analysis. As you see here, Vermont was estimated to lose about two fifteen total people, and that's a net population change factoring in births, deaths, in migration, and out migration. The other two states who have lost population are West Virginia and Mississippi. But this gives you a feel for which states are gaining, which states are staying steady, and again we're one of three states that have lost population.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Because the census, you know, course we gained population in 2020, delighted with that and COVID we gained, but this is some, this is just year to year and this is the census?

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: That's exactly right. Yeah, we saw inbound immigration hiring during the start of the pandemic, and that has leveled off and now turned negative. So going back up to the top, I mentioned housing permits. This is another indicator that we're featuring at the top, again part of the economic action plan. And we are number 46 out of 51 in terms of total housing permits. Again, I'll click on the map here so we can examine the data in more detail. And you'll see that we can scroll over any of the states to get an update, a status update, on how many housing permits are being issued on a state by state basis. Again, a perfect way to use this for comparative analysis, which states are issuing more permits, what is their policy environment like, how can we learn and adapt accordingly? So I've seen a correlation between the Montana, North Dakota's, Wyoming, and Vermont's, both stagnant or slower population growth and permits. But that's a correlation, not necessarily causation. Have you explored whether or not the restriction of permits and the permitting environments are actually constricting population growth? Have you jumped to that conclusion? Haven't done a direct comparative analysis. There does appear to be a correlation and just from a conceptual perspective, population can only grow to the extent that there's actually space for people to move in, which is housing. And even with stagnant population growth in the state of Vermont, housing needs have increased. This is a byproduct of our aging demographic. As a population ages, housing needs change. Generally, the median household size decreases, Right? So that means for the same number of people, more housing is needed. That's a dynamic that's increasing housing demand within the state of Vermont. So we're not even building enough homes for the people who are already here. So it comes back up to the indices here. They try to compile a slate of indices from nationally recognized and referenced sources, And these cover economic momentum, top states for business, economic outlook, talent attraction, regulatory and fiscal freedom, cost of living, tax equality or inequality, and business taxes in particular. The reason why these are featured at the top is because these are composite indices that hold together multiple measures to determine a ranking. Below, we have distributed into several categories, like population, housing, economy, cost of living, the individual data sets that are often pulled into the composite indices. Right? So just to highlight that both are available, the composites and the separate metrics So if you click

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: on each one, all of that will come up?

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Correct. So if I were to click on one of these, it would pull up where that is within the correct category. But within the category itself, you can open up any of these and see that comparative analysis with a little bit more detail too. What I've tried to do for each of the tables is highlight in blue where are the other New England states so it's easy to find. And then Vermont is labeled there in Greene.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Got it. And all of these are very concerning where we are. The only, the most encouraging one is I think the talent attraction. Oh no, not the ITEP, the tax fee, let's

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: so one, Vermont ranks third in the country in terms of tax progressivity. And I'll look We at that are one of the only states that has a progressive only Minnesota and the District Of Columbia are of us in this regard. And so, in terms of looking at this in totality, if we're doing well there, our attention, our time, and resources need to be invested in the other areas where we're farther behind.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: I'm not unwell. I just forgot my regular eyeglasses. What

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: else would you like to explore?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Well I think a lot of the ones that concern you those, I guess I would ask on how do you see us having that and to go back to our need of over monitors we need to do something to attract over monitors but it's a little we need to alternate the housing to house. So I guess that one question I would ask is of these where do you think you're gonna have the biggest impact just soonest and what do you think would affect, I mean, housing pieces, housing and population pieces needing to be affected?

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Correct. And I do highlight that population and housing, to me, looking at this big picture, are the lagging indicators. We take care of some of these other pieces, creating a more business friendly environment and supporting economic development, then we'll start to see improvements in our population in terms of growing the tax base. The Lancaster housing extraction scorecard, Sherri Clarkson, you mentioned we are doing quite well here. When we take a look at the composite elements that make this up, it tells a pretty powerful story. So where Vermont is doing well, why we're ranked so high, is because we've actually attracted a lot of prime working age folks to the state in downtown region over the past three years. It's largely been driven by people between the ages of 25 to 44. So that narrative of young people don't want to move to Vermont is we can dispel that myth with data. We also produce a lot of talented young people through our college and university system, or CPEs, graduating from our high schools. Our challenge has been retention. So these component scores show that although people and talent, especially young people, are attracted to Vermont, they need economic opportunities to help them stay, help them advance in their careers so that we can retain them and that they become the workforce of tomorrow. How do we do that? Well, there's a disconnect, there's a mismatch between the skills that they're acquiring, the opportunities that they're seeking, and what is available. And that's where business growth is a powerful retention mechanism. A lot of our students are leaving after they graduate from UPM, from Middlebury, and going to places like Boston, New York City, DC, Denver, going up to a large city in California. And when we do a comparative analysis of the labor opportunities, there's, again, a mismatch between the skills that they're graduating with, the opportunities they're seeking, and what's available here. Business growth would help to expand that pool of opportunities that better matches their skill sets and what they're looking for. It would also help to improve overall wages too. Business growth, we see a direct correlation between firm size and median wages. So it's both a good retention tool at the individual level or the employers. It's also a good mechanism for growing economic prosperity writ large as that young tax base

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: was. Do

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: we does somebody ask our employers that are on the radar as growing or looking to get to the next stage, what they need, right? Like Veggie should be a good touch point for us to say, what else do you need? What else is a barrier? I certainly talk to Beta and OnLogic all the time about housing and just permit reform, you know, so that they can grow in the ways they need. If we're stopping Beta from even expanding at the airport, then we have our answer. So, I just think it would be nice if we asked some of the business leaders who are committed to Vermont because they grew up here or they want to raise their family here. All of the struggles to grow here that they are having because I know I try to talk to them but I think the legislature should be having those conversations.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Sure and we actually have had our new Commissioner of Economic Development and we have asked what are

[Jeremy Little, Policy & Outreach Associate, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: the key things we need to

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: be doing so we have to also ask the people that are representing all of these businesses to actually come to us with and this is a direct request to the public. You know, you have business alliances and organizations that represent you. We need to be hearing, and that's we are asking them in. It's not like they're not Right behind they're with you. Exactly. That will be in a short time doing exactly that, Thomas.

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Really on this dashboard. Two things I'm not seeing, but tell me if it's in here, is one, vacancy rates. I wanna know how Vermont compares relative to the rest of the Cause I see similarities with some states I hadn't expected, but I'd love to also know if they too have as much demand for housing as we do. And then second house is homes per capita. I've heard statistics comparing to Maine, but if there's anything out there for all 50 states. Is that in here or is that on your radar? Yeah, it's on my radar. This is phase one, so I'll be adding to this dashboard over time. So please keep checking back in and if there are specific requests for data that would be helpful for your work, please let me know. I'm happy to prioritize that.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: We'll just a plug for housingdata.org.

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Vermont

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: DHFA owns the housingdata.org without any Vermont moniker on it and it has metrics like who lives where they work which is huge for young people and rental price, Canadian rental price.

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Yeah, it's a fantastic resource that I use quite often. A lot of the comparative analysis in housingdata.org takes a look at what's happening within Vermont. You can compare town to town, county to county. The value add of this dashboard in particular is to be able to do that prostate analysis. So again, let me know which metrics you are curious about and that can be second and third phase of this task. In

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: these indices and what we can impact, where would you suggest we focus?

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Yeah, so I mentioned supporting business growth as a way to improve many of the areas, right, because these are intersectional topics that we're talking about. We also take a look at, okay, what are the mechanisms for improving the retention of the homegrown talent we already The Green Mountain Jobs and Retention Program, you'll hear more from the team right behind me from the chamber. We have examined the parameters of that program and You

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: mean that's our $5,000 that's what

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Correct. And it's targeted towards people graduating with a bachelor's or master's. Meanwhile, 68% of the entry level job opportunities in Vermont do not require a bachelor's degree. Say the percentage again. 68%. So again, this is where there might be a mismatch between how it's currently designed and what is needed by employers. So if we think about how to reconfigure that in a way that attends to the needs that employers are seeing and makes the same level of opportunity available to folks perhaps graduating from CTE or with an associate's degree, we might be able to see improved impact from a program that already exists.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Right, yes. And the age of the the associate's degree absolutely ad hoc was included in that and it's not easy ad for this year to consider.

[Sen. David Weeks, Clerk]: The counter argument is you have to have that which of these skill sets are leaving and which of the skill sets are already retaining themselves in the state, might say CTE, maybe the plumbers because they're local and they're graduating earlier compared to a bachelor's degree, they're staying, whereas the associate's, bachelor's, master's, maybe those are the ones who are leaving. So you have to, you're trying to affect those that are leaving, not just the whole population.

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: No, that's a great point. And we can do deeper analysis on an occupational level, But that brings up another great point in terms of talent attraction. We have certain occupation types where there are huge workforce shortages, and this is where taking a look at national data might help us become smarter and more efficient with how we might do relocation marketing. I know that was a topic earlier today. We can overlay several different data sets where perhaps we find locations, places around the country that have a surplus of certain occupations that we have a deficit of. Right? That can be one way we target marketing. There are other data layers that we can grow into that analysis as well at a macro level. So Vermont has about two open jobs for every one job seeker. There are other places in the country where that ratio is one to one, or maybe there are more job seekers than job openings, and we know people are willing to move and relocate for economic opportunity. If they can't find it where they are now perhaps they're more open to exploring an option like Vermont. How much on

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: the talent, just to follow-up on that talent in migration, how much of that is actually working for companies outside of Vermont because in our area in the Woodstock area we have a significant in migration but they're most of them who can afford to buy a house in Woodstock or the Woodstock area all are working remotely So how do you count them in your work?

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: I don't have the exact count, but reading a report from the Department of Financial Regulation when Pcheck was leading that. It was an analysis of the relocation grant program that Vermont has in place, and it calculated That came out. Yeah. The return on investment. And by year two of somebody relocating to Vermont, they had paid back the rent they received and more. Yes. Right? So that's recognizing that even if a remote worker relocating to Vermont isn't taking up a lot of job, it's still Right now we need more people in Vermont. We need more taxpayers in Vermont. And someone coming with a remote job may eventually transition after they make some community connections to working for a number of Vermont employers. Also, part of a package strategy that I've seen implemented effectively at some of the colleges and universities and hospitals where perhaps you're recruiting a talented physician, and prior to COVID, when remote work wasn't as prevalent, if their spouse couldn't find a job locally, that family that might be bringing a young kid that would fill up for school too would have to say no. But now if the physician is a good fit for a job here and their partner can bring a remote job, it's much easier for them to say yes. So creatively leveraging some of these new labor market dynamics to our advantage intentionally can be part

[Sen. Randy Brock, Vice Chair]: of that strategy moving forward. Thanks. Randy, you have

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: a question?

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Just a quick question. Some of

[Sen. Randy Brock, Vice Chair]: the charts that would be linked to these items to be done and those not complete yet or these all to be completed. Sorry.

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Can you ask that one more time? Oh, in other words, I I hit one of the things here that so

[Sen. Randy Brock, Vice Chair]: it said, see the map that would show me the tax foundation state tax and I don't get anything. I just wonder if that's just an error or is that something still to be done? That

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: that might be the the tax foundation site is probably down. So it linked to Okay. Tax foundation. But, no, last time I checked, all of these should be active. If it's not, I can get you the underlying data.

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: Are we just asking that?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: I think at the moment we are. Mean I would go for it and I have another Right.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: I'll say on the record with Kevin here because he doesn't know how often I say. I think you are one of our best data people in the state. I appreciate what you do. I don't think we should try and duplicate what you do. I think we should support what you do and make sure it's known and it's platformed and you get all the data you need liberated from the state to do this work. Are there any barriers for the future of your work that you'd like to ask us to remove?

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: That's a great question.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: And please don't leave the state.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Happily's parents are stuck in. Yeah, And

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: certainly you mentioned that funding is one of the top priorities and concerns for any nonprofit operating in the state right now, especially in a moment when grants can be a bit uncertain. But to your point, the data availability is certainly something that's top of mind for me. I've noticed with some of this research on education statistics and enrollment, the data sets that I tried to access, which were once available, sometimes are not as available. Not now? You're kidding. Or the numbers have changed with no underlying explanation. Right. So just that data availability and transparency

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: Is that a federal dance state problem? Or I mean, one of the things I ask someone like Matt Berowicz, you know, is beyond the anecdotal might we see the chilling effect of people's people feeling privacy concerns with the federal government and not answering questions and so we lose some integrity of federal data there and then at the state level if you're saying AOE is not giving us the data, am not surprised but we can address that in education.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Right. So is that with AOE, the transparency piece?

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: I was just giving one example of spreadsheet that I downloaded from last year and then again this year, and the numbers didn't quite match up when I looked at enrollment statistics year by year, which again, sometimes there has to be corrections made. We see this with federal data too, where there's revisions, right, as new data become available. I think that for a researcher perspective, having transparency explanation for why

[Sen. David Weeks, Clerk]: some of those numbers So there

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: were no explanations for those changes? Not that

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: I can find. Were you in touch with AME to find out why?

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: They didn't have time when we bring together this dashboard.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: But cc one of us, you know, I'm offering myself. Feel free to CC us when you have those questions because if that data is presented to us and we don't know what's changed then it's really valuable to have your input there.

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Yeah, the changes were minor, the overall trend is still the same. We have fewer kids in our schools now than we used to, right? We need more people. That doesn't change the underlying message or our takeaways that the data are telling us. I just wanted to be able to provide a specific example.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: So that's a data level, for example. Your staff at the moment is what size and your budget is what size?

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Yeah. I'm the only full time staff of the Vermont futures project. Our annual budget is about $150,000

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: month. And

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: I just wanna say, look at everything he is doing and the requests we have gotten from other people, and I just think that's really important to keep in mind because I have not gotten this good of data from people we give a lot more money to.

[Sen. Randy Brock, Vice Chair]: The return on investment is huge.

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Donor partners around the state very much believe in that as well, and, you know, our our business community are trying out for partnership in supporting these types of efforts so that we, as a state, can continue to make data informed decisions whether at the state

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: or local level. Right, exactly. And you've been involved with the data trust work that the Department of Labor has been overseeing. Right.

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: I get asked to join a lot of data related conversations.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale, Member]: Help me with CTE this year please. It's critical.

[Sen. David Weeks, Clerk]: How would you characterize your relationship with Vermont State Department of Economic Development or the Agency of Education? Can you characterize that? Yeah, so for most of

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: the work to develop this economic action plan, I went in with the core principle that I'm not smart enough to write a whole plan on my own or am I stupid enough to try, so partnership was a key part of what brought this to life. All of the partners I listed in here and many of the state agencies that I needed to partner with were very willing and were able to share reports and data when requested and even recommendations for what the heck we do about it. So I've had a good relationship. Again, I'm just one person, so some of the relationships that I'd like to continue to develop just haven't naturally happened due to capacity and time. They only have twenty four hours in a day to spend.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: So channeling your work on the action plan and this new competitive competitiveness dashboard, what gives you I mean it's all concerning. What is most actionable of this and what would you suggest?

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Yeah, so we can go through some of the recommendations. Again this was published last year. I think that we So much of it is still. Yeah, we touched on intentional efforts to recruit more people to Vermont, and that can be done with data. You've heard me say Vermont needs more people, more people need Vermont. We can quantify that second piece in multiple ways, whether people need Vermont for labor market opportunities. We've also seen some people move to Vermont because it's more affordable relative to where they're coming from, right? So we have to understand what are the points of friction or what are the positives that someone might choose Vermont for. We can certainly take

[Jeremy Little, Policy & Outreach Associate, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: a look

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: at climate data as a reason why more people might need Vermont, and we've seen values based migration as well. So when we start to stack these data layers together, we have a much more intentional and targeted strategy for how to do relocation.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: And those two pieces are driving a lot of the in migration in my neck of the woods. I already know of several climate refugees, all of whom are deep pocketed and all it's a some of this competitiveness if there's a disconnect altogether in that the demand for our housing and our housing prices are so high. Can I just say

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: I as someone who's scholarly work is in this area there's a difference between a climate refugee and a climate immigrant? Someone who can afford a very expensive home to make a choice to leave is very different than the people who are half semi homeless right now in Vermont because their home has been flooded and we have not provided a new place for

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: them to live. That's true. I'll change it but my point is that the disconnect is our housing prices are escalating at a rate that is unaffordable for many of Ravana's on Ravana incomes and immigrants pull up the

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: ladder on climate refugees when they don't want housing built next to

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: them to the other body of work that is very valuable. I guess my point is Vermont is in demand for whatever reason the values of our homes reflect that and yet all these other things are

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Yeah yeah so one of the points here in the dashboard, CNBC top states for business, there are components to it, and we ranked number one for quality of life. The last thing that people seek out. Vermont is in demand, and based on some of these factors that we've talked about, we can anticipate that demand will persist and may even increase in the coming years. Inherently, that is a good thing for the state of Vermont. That is a position of strength to build from. We want people to desire to be in Vermont. Yes, that demand does put pressure on the housing market because there's an imbalance between the demand for being here and the supply of housing that enables that to happen. Economics, right? So with that, we have this opportunity to step up and meet that demand that would increase the population, increase the tax base, improve affordability, that would meet the moment for our employers who are asking for more robust workforce recruitment efforts. And this to me, why I'm optimistic. People will ask me quite often when they take a look at this, oh, it's a lot of bad news, doom and gloom, what gives you hope? The demand for Vermont is what gives me hope. It might not last forever if we don't step up to the challenge. But it's a much better place to be in as a state than the opposite, which is if prices were tanking because everyone kept moving out and no one wanted to be here, that's a bleak future. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Thanks, Dave. Did have did I see any good?

[Sen. David Weeks, Clerk]: No. I'm wondering because we only have five minutes left.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Yeah. We're gonna start warming and and Megan, his umbrella, the chamber is gonna take over.

[Sen. David Weeks, Clerk]: So I'm just wondering if if you're leading to set of recommendations, do we remove constraints or what if we have limited influence, but what can

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: we influence? Which is sort of about building on the question I tried to ask earlier.

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Sure. Thank you, David. Again, there's a lot of recommendations in here. Let's start with this and make sure your colleagues, I don't know they have a copy of It's right here. They read it as well. We have touched on the regulatory environment, how difficult it can be to operate a business, scale, to build housing. And I would just say that there are ways to actually quantify that impact. We could do a research study that examines what is the cost or what has been the cost of our existing regulatory environment and what is the potential gain from making some adjustments that are aligned with the outcomes that we all say we want. And that would be principle that I ask you to consider and apply, which is what is the stated outcome that we all are talking about, whether it's more houses or increasing the population? What are the conditions now, and is leadership in this moment barrier deconstruction? Do we need to add more that's new or help to get things out of the way? I have been reading about this behavioral economics concept where making the default aligned with the desired outcome leads to much better results. And the classic example is a new employee who begins a job, if they are automatically enrolled in contributions to a retirement account, their long term financial outcomes are significantly better than if that employee is asked to apply go through the process of doing the paperwork to defer part of their wages to contribute to retirement. So just by shifting the default and saying, okay, you're automatically enrolled, if you want to opt out, that's okay, right? We're not taking the right personal choice of freedom, but we're aligning the default to a desired outcome.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: And a desired outcome here, and for months, it's sort of anchored here.

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: So we can apply that same thinking to how we talk about housing, how we talk about economic development. We have a housing example, right? If housing is a human right managed, the right to build housing, you've heard me say that before, but the process right now is someone who wants to create new housing in a community has to go through a laborious process, time consuming process, costly process, to get permission to do the thing we say we want them to do. So how do we reconfigure the default to align with the stated outcome? And this is where, again, data is really helpful in helping us understand the rate of progress, the scale of action that's needed. There is a housing needs assessment that says how many units we need. So start to embed those data in how we measure and create policy.

[Sen. David Weeks, Clerk]: Do you agree with that number? The United State housing United State? Yes.

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: Think

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: I mean I'm so glad to hear another senator bring up the vacancy rate so

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale, Member]: I don't have to and

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: there's going to be an interesting market pushback because I can see where housing is being built in large quantities their vacancy rates are going to loosen, I can stake my career on that, meaning rent actually decreases or stabilizes, which the market is going to, like those developers are going to say, well we don't want to keep building more for not as much money. So we also then need to be paying attention to what policies we need to drive into places that have very tight vacancy rates likely outside of Chittenden County.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Like the Upper Valley, which is less than 1%.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: Right, so we're, I think we're climbing toward 2% vacancy

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale, Member]: in Chittenden County, which is

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: like great and now we hear oh we're not going get as much rent, it's like yeah that was the whole thing what we did. Right,

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: so we have to pay attention. Yeah,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: great. Terrific. Tom, you have to go. Kevin, it's wonderful. Thank you very much. It really gives us marching orders. Wish we had

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Yeah, no, thank you for having me. Again, I encourage you to click around, examine the datasets. If you have any questions, let me know. If I can be a partner to bring new data into this dashboard that would be helpful for you, again, happy to do that. Great. It's a public resource. Share with your colleagues as well.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Thank you. And just quickly on your budget, that is raised by the chamber. How much of that do we raise through the budget?

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: How much is through entirely supported by donations, by the donations, mission way, from business of the community, and some individuals that really believe in the mission.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Yes. So we're it's this is your efforts are not state funded. State supported and but not funded thank you thank you very much this

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: is thank you for having me

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: well you are always you know lots to think about which we appreciate and are challenged by both of which I try and appreciate how much you challenge us.

[Jeremy Little, Policy & Outreach Associate, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: Thank you, Kelly.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Thank you so much and now we are going to pivot to Megan to the chamber and address what they are following up on this what their economic development priorities are for the year for this session. Kevin, thank you so much. And your other your full time you have a

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: part

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: time? You're the only full time that you got part time you're part time?

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Administrative support from my wonderful colleagues at the chamber.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: And your office is there?

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Yeah. And Yeah. Colleagues too. They support me quite a bit emotionally.

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: All friendly smash papers. Great. Alright, I will kick us off. Right. I am the senior president of the Narott Chamber of Commerce. I thought after Kevin, it might be helpful to provide a 50,000 foot view of the chamber so you understand how the future's project as a c three interacts with the chamber and how Kevin frames his thinking as a c three versus what we can do as a c six. So he'll give a little so so How do you think about Deborah on a

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: regular basis? Oh, she's still here. Wow.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale, Member]: Gosh. Like, there there truly are not enough.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Gotcha. In the

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: world, they have pneumonia, so I'm all contagious.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale, Member]: She's getting that every day. I feel you pain. I had pneumonia last year.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: It's gonna be like six weeks of this, so I don't know how many I can eat.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: So we assume that the futures project, the action, the call to action, and this most recent data is informing

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: what your priorities are.

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: Absolutely. So the futures project, you know, structured as a five zero one c three, which means that its role is to provide independent nonpartisan research and long term economic analysis, which is what you see, know, and love that Kevin provides. Love by design as a c three, it does not take positions on specific policy proposals or advocate for legislative outcomes, which is why that brings how Kevin answers your questions and you're asking specific questions. Just so you're aware of of why he might

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: We make the recommendations. He provides the data that informs what he comes from. So think of it as a pipeline.

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: The futures project produces the data, long term economic framework, gets a lot of volume throughout the state. We translate that based on that research into policy recommendations based on the data and then also our interactions with the business community as well. So branding flows in the policy of functions remain very much distinct. So just a little caveat there as we tip-off the the time here. So I also wanna thank all the members of the committee for your engagement with the business community over the past year. And as many of you around the table have attended the solution summit, also our industry policy retreats for manufacturing for tourism and hospitality. Those were important conversations that were solutions driven conversations, and employers from across the state certainly noticed and appreciated the participation. So at the chamber, as we've talked about our pipeline right now, we've been very intentional about shifting from a reactive posture to a proactive one, which is what led us here today to talk about some of our recommendations that we have. So rather than responding issue by issue, we've been engaging with employers over the past year about what they need to invest, grow, and stay competitive here in Vermont.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale, Member]: So pairing that insight with the fact

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: rigorous economic analysis that Kevin is doing. So when you put those two factors together, though, I think an important takeaway for this committee is that the message is very consistent. The business climate survey shows that workforce availability, housing supply, regulatory complexity, and cost pressures, they're not isolated concerns, and they're all interconnected constraints. I think that's really the story that's woven with all of Kevin's data, that everything is interconnected. I think one of the important conclusions that we have from the data is that Vermont's core workforce challenge is not participation, it's availability. Our working age population is flat to declining while peer states are growing. Even strong participation among older workers cannot offset

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: the retirements that we're seeing.

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: And so that reality does require a different policy lens, one that Meg will take a deeper dive into these very specific recommendations, looking at retention, attraction, productivity. That's kind of the lens that we're bringing here. Housing is also central to that equation, one that you're very familiar with, so I won't spend a lot of time there. But employers have told us and the data confirms this that housing availability is now primary restraint on hiring, expansion, and investment. Right. So it all comes back to housing. Yep. At the same time, it's a Vermont cost structure of these businesses with little margin for uncertainty. So higher costs of housing, health care, and compliance means that delays, unclear sequencing, and unpredictable timelines can quickly derail otherwise viable projects in our state. So key takeaway there is predictability matters. And before I'm not out of the bus in some

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: of that at the moment, but

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: I do what I want to leave with you before Megan takes over some policy recommendations is that we're seeing some concerning signals at the sector level. We're looking at tourism and manufacturing in particular. They play an outsized role in Vermont's economy because they're export oriented. They bring in dollars, outside dollars into the state, and not all GDP growth is equal in the small state economy. Tourism is facing real headwinds tied to workforce and housing constraints, and manufacturing, I would say, is even more concerning for our state. In a single year, Vermont experienced the kind of manufacturing decline that long term projections expected to occur over an entire decade. So we're accelerating our projected decline in manufacturing in Vermont. So it's an outsized decline that we're seeing. So I would

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: say Decline decline. So it's declining closing businesses, decline is not producing less.

[Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale, Member]: Is it producing less or is

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: it closing businesses? It's if

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: you look, because the overall contribution to the launch GDP. So it's their economic influence that they have is declining at a greater rate than anticipated. And I think for a number of reasons We've got the numbers. Do have that number, so I'll have to follow-up with you because I don't have it in front of me, but I know we're prepared

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: to go the same. Sorry. Megan Sullivan, vice president of government affairs for the Montreal Chamber of Commerce. I think I would go back. I think it was about it was supposed to decline 1.2% over

[Jeremy Little, Policy & Outreach Associate, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: a decade, can we get that in twenty years?

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: We're overachieving in ways we don't want to be doing.

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: So I think that's a good segue over to Megan who will provide some targeted, and Jeremy who are going to provide some targeted pragmatic policy interventions that are designed to improve predictability, strengthen our workforce alignment, support some long term investment without compromising Vermont's environmental health or safety standards. We're keeping all of those things top of mind. Megan and Jeremy, I'll pass it on to you. Great, thanks, Amy.

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: Thank you. So when we're coming up with our policy recommendations on economic development, we're looking at the competitiveness dashboard, looking at the economic action plan as sort of our guiding document and also the input that we got from businesses at our various policy events that we had this fall. And also understanding this state is

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: in a tough

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: year, right, coming in and saying, we're gonna need $50,000,000 to do this, like this is not that's not reasonable this year. So say, what can we do that's going to make a difference that is reasonable and attainable given our budgetary constraints right now? The first piece we have in here is about regulatory predictability and streamlined permitting. Obviously, is something we talk about a lot on the housing front, but it is significant on running the business

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: as well.

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: The number of agencies that you have to go to to get various permits, the number of agencies that you have to check-in with on a regular basis that you have to do reporting with. It can be challenging for businesses, especially as they're scaling to understand what am I supposed to have in place? What am I supposed to be doing? When am I getting things right? What happens if I get things wrong? And I think as a state, having been a former state employee, things can be very siloed. You don't if one agency is doing something, another agency is doing something similar, it can be challenging to know what is the overall scope of the regulatory world that various types of businesses are in. And so our first recommendation is really about trying to get our hands around that. Having agencies work together to sub out them. What are all of the permits that businesses are required? What are all of the reporting that a business is required? Are there is there duplication that's happening here that maybe we say, you know, we don't need two agencies checking the same box and charging a fee every time they do it. So doing that communication is something that we're recommending happens in order to probably come up with some policy recommendations next year more specific to our network meeting.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: So is that a task force that identifies all those duplicates?

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: I'm sorry. Face. No. No. I know.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: I know. I'm just asking how can we Well, actually, so there's to the point of of of specifically aligning I mean, how do we get

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: to that? I I I don't know if it's a task force or it is tasking agencies. Yeah. I'm happy to address that. And either agency forward is the question. That's it. We have a little something we're working on to share, which is that we are looking to get funding through we're talking to organizations about grants to work with an organization called Memo who specializes

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: His name is Memo.

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: His name is Memo. Alright. I'm here for him. But what they do is specializes going into a state and looking at regulation. Oh, you mentioned yeah. Yeah. Looking at regulation and understanding deep dive, what does the law say?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: What do the rules say?

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: Which sometimes is significantly more than what the law says. Where are their duplications? And it's not an anti regulatory review, but it's a let's do regulation in a smart way. And they also quantify what is the cost to all of these things? Not only the cost of the business, but the cost that it's taking out of the economy.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: So that work would be critically important for us to be able to act on.

[Kevin Chu, Executive Director, Vermont Futures Project]: Tom, you had something. This direction, but I'm reading about the establishing one or more permitting ombudsman's positions. Yes. What I'm not against that. Yeah. But I would love to know if this is on your radar or as you consult in other chambers across the country, I'm hearing more and more about agentic AI being used for permitting reform and streamlining and asking and serving as a resource to answer just these questions. I'm not against not against the bot. Do see a real opportunity for turning one of those tools on our permitting system to help both people that need to apply and also us better understanding where the bottlenecks are. I don't know if that's on your

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: I mean I'm open to technology making our lives easier, certainly. So, you know, within the framework of let's make sure it's done. Yeah. Right. You are

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: in motion on on hiring memo.

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: We are in motion on fundraising so we can hire mister Memo.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: And the cost of that at the moment that you're looking at is? 125,000. And that would be able that would provide us information not in your session probably but for next session.

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: It takes six to twelve months for the study to

[Jeremy Little, Policy & Outreach Associate, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: be completed because it's a

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: thorough review of the entire regulatory environment in the state and then it also provides a focus on five areas. We've definitely identified housing as an example of a focus area.

[Sen. Randy Brock, Vice Chair]: Do you have any history of their results elsewhere?

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: Yes, so there are a number of states that have used a cost regulation study to look at where can we simplify things, where is there a duplication A

[Sen. Randy Brock, Vice Chair]: request before.

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: That is a great way to

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: I believe the governor of Colorado had a photobop event where he took me, after they got

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: the report back, took a chainsaw to make up under the pages of duplicative regulation essay. I

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: really encourage us all to treat permitting like an outside obsession priority for us as well. I encourage us to have the Agency of Natural Resources in because it was constituents who alerted me, a business, a farm, that their AI permitting navigation system went haywire and spit out to a large number of those who have existing permits that they needed new permits. It caused, I mean, if you can imagine caused caused chaos, heartache, lost sleep, because I had just finished asking them what happened to that nice young man who was supposed to be like the A and R permit navigator and they switched out people for AI, and then they are looking at switching out this AI for another technology, and this is our this is our problem. This is a problem. Businesses This and developers being told

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: just deal with our system.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: The mental results are certainly going to inform a specific validation?

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: You mean this acumen? Mr. Memo. But we don't know. Wait. That shouldn't be us waiting, but you need to be more proactive as a committee on addressing this issue.

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: And I would say the ombudsman position that we are talking about here is not part of it is definitely to say, okay, you know, in these are the things that you're going to need, okay, manufacturer. Having that person who understands the ecosystem of permitting, but also can say, Okay, DEC, okay, LERB, I'm not understanding your response here. Someone who's looking out for the opportunity in the development who can think when we put these positions in the agency of enforcement, it becomes challenging to have that you're here to help the applicant, you're here to make sure that the application is done correctly. Having that person in the agency that is there to help you out and that's part of our point here is that we want someone who's an expert in these things, but where they're housed matters. Yes.

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: And coming to us and saying there are too many problems with this

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: permit. Okay, so next

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: up, talking about relocation marketing but also current location marketing. You all do some great things, and we will share with you some things that we put together for our members that say, here are 10 things that the legislature did this year that you can use as recruitment and retention tools. And that is done by our government affairs non marketing communications brain. Imagine if we had people with marketing communications brains who are thinking about this and putting it together in a way that provides information to the folks who are dealing with our businesses on a regular basis to say, here are the

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: tools that you can be using when you are trying

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: to get applicants to move here or you

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: are trying to get people to stay here, and it's the tools from the Workforce Development Programs, the Housing Programs, the Loan Repayment Programs, the Child Care Programs. These are all opportunities to reframe for our businesses how they can keep and entice people here. The the military pension tax is happening. Our business is aware of that, so when they're recruiting people, they can put that in their recruitment. And part of this is we just need to do a better job of not putting something four pages down on the website, but packaging it. I think the Office of Workforce Development is a good place given their work around this and some committees that are forming. And I we first say, when the legislation created that office was going through, I was the one saying, Oh great, we're moving deck chairs on the Titanic. We've got another layer of bureaucracy. I have done a 180 on that. I met with Sabina and Drake, and they are down in the hole that was hit by the iceberg trying to get the ship back on track. And I think the work that that office is doing is a good place for this because they are nimble and they are thinking ahead about these challenges and about recruitment and retention and framing and not just having meetings but working.

[Sen. Randy Brock, Vice Chair]: I wonder if also there's a really distinct linkage to the tourism office in terms of because the the the marketing that they do and the analysis of that marketing is, I think,

[Sen. David Weeks, Clerk]: so critical for workforce development.

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: Yeah. I mean, they own That's a skill

[Sen. Randy Brock, Vice Chair]: set that I'm not sure it was there in workforce development area.

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: They own our brand. They own how to do marketing in the state. So we would love to have them continue to do this work on relocation marketing and work with employers and be part of that conversation of how are we really selling the work that happens every year here in a way that makes a difference on some of these metrics that are alarming. We need to we're moving past ourselves. Moving past. The next piece is about the Green Mountain Jobs Program. And we have a young person on our staff that we're excited is in Vermont. I'm gonna let Jeremy talk about our ideas here. Jeremy Little, Policy

[Jeremy Little, Policy & Outreach Associate, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: and Outreach Associate with the Vermont Chamber of Commerce. Thank you all for having us. Yeah, as a young person, the Green Dot Jobs and Retention Program was actually first instituted in the year that I graduated from my undergraduate at St. Michael's College. Right? I really tried, but I was actually away for a year in Spain, so I ended up coming back and I didn't qualify. But during that time, I actually had a couple of friends reach out to me and ask me about the program because they knew that I was sometimes tipping with it with the legislative programs. But they they applied for it. They got that program, and they are very, much to this day. They came from all sorts of places like New Hampshire, Massachusetts. So it's been great for retaining college students outside of just like having them here for college and then having them leave once they graduate. And so it really shows that like employers were able to use this as a tool. They recruited all of my, you know, schools, nonprofits, like towns that used to be the schools that recruit my peers into their jobs, into their empty positions. And, you know, that's really what we need throughout the state. Keeping young people in the state is going to be a big step towards fixing this workforce gap that we're seeing widening over the next five years. So not only is this gap happening amongst bachelor's and master's graduates, which is what their program currently applies to, but it's happening throughout the state in all sectors, especially the manufacturing industry, the tourism industry, you know, that, you know, being a negative we're speaking to, of course. And 68% of jobs in Vermont don't actually require a bachelor's and master's degree. So one thing that we're asking for this year is if you're willing is to consider expanding this retention program to not just bachelor's and master's degrees, but to associate's degrees and professional certifications so that more employers across the entire sector from like chefs to engineering technicians can really use these to like fill those positions.

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: Can I say something on that? I

[Sen. Thomas Chittenden, Member]: feel like we are also through our CTE work and other things trying to pull back that need to have a college degree requirement on everything. So I think that fits really well with our mission to not require that young people pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to feel like they need something that they don't to take a job.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: I think we've been think we've been focused on that for that final and I think that's a good catch and I'm but there we are, we had that a couple of years listed in gear. I appreciate that we how we can expand. One

[Jeremy Little, Policy & Outreach Associate, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: one last little part of this as well. So you have

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: a recommendation on the amount we ought to to because I believe they're out of money and they need more of an institution of money. So the question is what do we ask on that financially?

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: I think 1,500,000.0

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: was prorated last year so continuation of that funding. And has it been fully subscribed? It yeah. So it had

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: not been when we were really starting to talk

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: about this in October, but since then, it's the money isn't gone, but it's been allocated. Right? Because you earn it over time. Right.

[Sen. David Weeks, Clerk]: Okay so our next piece is Is targeted at all or is it just a kind of a blanket you have have bachelor's, associate's, ctv type certificates in general?

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: It's not targeted, but I would say if an employer this to me is one of those programs that is, I would call it, a specific employer focused recruitment tool, opposed to this is the employee tool. I love hearing that young people find it a huge relief to get, you know, that $5,000 means you can get a house that much earlier. That is impactful. But we have employee employers who have needs in every sector. Right? Every we have members in every industry, and there isn't an industry that's like, no. We're good. So when we say you know targeting if someone gets needs, right now

[Sen. David Weeks, Clerk]: the need is we're playing prioritize. Are we going to prioritize this at all? That we're, I don't know, 50% down in nursing and we're, but we're 4% down in another occupation. We can't prioritize it at all and say this is where we're going to focus.

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: It hasn't been, and I I think you'd be open to that conversation, but my my preference is

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: at this point would

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: be to to allow the program to be used as a general recruitment tool. Yeah. And I think it would

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: be great to hear from the program what job what areas they're they're being recruited into.

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: Yeah. And I think they're part of the reflection on that too. It's as we've been talking about this program, businesses,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: legislators, people don't know about it.

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: It's a pretty well kept secret.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: UEM doesn't exactly have huge marketing. No, I know.

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: And so that goes back to that how are we marketing the tools that are put in place. I think that's

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: a huge question which I yeah.

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: All right. So number four, strengthening hospitality and improving our economy workforce. So this again, we're getting back into how are we Where are we at on this workforce pipeline? And I think really focusing on doing some of this data informed alignment. Where are the jobs? Where is the training? Right? Some of these jobs are much more technical and we need to know where that training is for them so that especially our hospitality business, our economy, can have a handle. Because right now what we're hearing is a real struggle to find employees which everyone is having but specifically where that training can help them meet the demand. And it's varied, right? A

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: large hotel needs an engineer and a maintenance technician needs people to train. It's a chef. In conversation I'm in conversation about starting a new culinary institute with CCB and others and so we desperately need economies too. We had no pipeline for that anymore. Our CTE, our CTE kits go through and then boom.

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: On that front, the data on that the positions that are needed, and the Department of Tourism and Marketing is doing incredible work

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: and they're generating a lot of revenue to the state. And our this industry is generating a lot of

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: revenue to the state, and so we would support and encourage that their appropriation that reflects even a portion of manufacturers, is automation in Vermont is not killing jobs, it's saving businesses, and it's growing better jobs for young people, as well as our Sage workers who in the manufacturing floor may not be able to do the same level of manual labor that they had once been able to do, but they still have working years ahead of them. And automation can take some of that manual labor pressure off to help them upscale and stay part of the workforce, which while we're still trying to recruit young people, we need them to convert to the workforce as long as they're building and able. So what we have here is a task force, a study, a specific group of people to talk about what could an automation incentive program be to ensure that it's balanced in a way that is saying, how do we automate and not incentivize that sort of, we're gonna automate and fire, you know, 75 people because we've automated, but the work to automate and bring the employees along or recognize that you're about to have massive retirements and you're either going to have to leave or automate. This is something businesses are trying to do, but the access to capital and the workforce upscaling are a challenge. So working on a state program that can meet that moment, we have some ideas here who can be part of a conversation like that. Come back next year with sort of a program specific to equipment boarding.

[Sen. Randy Brock, Vice Chair]: I think the program like that is important. But I think that program also has to take into account the very likelihood that there will be reductions in force. Right. And so part of that automation or that plan should be, what are you

[Jeremy Little, Policy & Outreach Associate, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: gonna do with people you have left over?

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: Don't leave them out. Right. No. And I these are these are the important and tricky questions that I think is why we're not saying let's we can do we can treat a burden in the next three months. It's saying let's get some smart people to think about all these things to find where those guardrails are. And not, you know, a full incentive grant, whatever you want to call it, is great, but I also think manufacturers are a little bit more open to debt and so if this is a no interest loan that can have a lot of attractiveness, It doesn't necessarily need to be granted. We have to get that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: We should we'll chat about this further, I mean, automation is so interesting in respect to each manufacturing industry. It's the it's access to capital is a difference it's sort of well that's certainly what we're looking at but I would say it's an access to capital question you know then but they'll get veggie,

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: it could be veggie.

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: But veggie as it is now is driven by job work that makes the automation.

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: Oh, I see what

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: you can have capital investment, but you have to have that job growth. That where the trick is right now when job growth is

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: really challenging, and so we're saving jobs by automating and we've

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: got some good examples of

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: businesses that have reworked one together. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. And GW plastics which is now mill auto.

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: And there's a great picture of you all touring it together. Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: Oh, yeah. That was very interesting. Yeah. And very exciting, actually.

[Megan Sullivan, Vice President of Government Affairs, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: So that's that's that in a nutshell. And thank you all. Thanks to Kevin for That's thank you, Kevin, for teeing

[Sen. Alison Clarkson, Chair]: it up. Thank you for thinking this out and and segmenting your recommendations to the areas that we're gonna be doing built in and so this is great and more to follow on this. Tom, you want closing question? You. Great. This is great. Thank you.

[Sen. David Weeks, Clerk]: Yeah. Yeah. One minute.

[Amy Spear, Senior Vice President, Vermont Chamber of Commerce]: The bill for that. Okay.