Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Kristen Arbor, I Welcome everybody to the House Senate Conference on s one twenty seven, the omnibus housing bill, and it is the May 29, Thursday, and here we are still. What we're gonna do this morning is first thing is the the senate presented to us yesterday a really well thought through, thank you very much, complete proposal, which really helped us. We met last night and have a proposal to give to you. The limitation is although we will be using this side by side, the problem is the side by side only shows where we still disagree, and the bill isn't yellow lined. So what we're going to do is actually just walk through our list of what we're doing because there's a number of areas where we're saying that we're going to

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: work with you. And this proposal that we have from you is only on tax increment planning.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah, although we can talk a little bit about other stuff. Okay. Yeah, this is focusing on today, this morning, we're focusing on the chip. Okay, and so I'm going to ask and so The new one actually shows Does it show? Right? Yeah.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: It shows differences. Alright, Bob. This is our new

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: This is

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Yeah. Let's have John introduce what we're looking at.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Alright. John, you wanna introduce am I mischaracterizing? Not at all.

[John Gray (Legislative Counsel)]: So John Gray, legislative counsel. What you have is a side by side that shows the differences between the senate proposal from yesterday related to CHIP and the house proposal related to CHIP from this morning. That's new to you. You also have a standalone doc unhighlighted that is just the house proposal for the CHIP sections. Probably most useful to look at the side by side. If the request is to see a doc that shows the changes against the House's former position, I have something that can do that. But I think what is most useful is probably just seeing the differences between the two proposals. The thing that you won't see in the side by side is evidence other than what you know to be the case from the different yesterday of where concessions have been made because those will not be highlighted sections. Right? Those are changes that the health proposal has accepted from the senate proposal. It doesn't show up as highlighted because those are not the same. So but I'm happy to explain what those are because I can just walk through depending on how you guys

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: wanna proceed. Think what I'll ask Charlie to do is to walk us through the our petition issue by issue, which is the some of which I guess could be parish provides this concession. We'll take it from there.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: How are we? Good morning. So good to see you bright eyed and pushed out

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: this morning.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: In fact, wonder whether we've gotten to be looking at yesterday's side by side to which will show area so language that we are agreeing to. Well So do it any way you want.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Thanks, mister chairman. So this just shows remaining points of disagreement. So we wanna talk about the things we do agree on. One is we're we are adopting your version of affordable housing. So as you have described it, and you'll see that on page one. We still are maintaining the house position of in perpetuity. That is our proposal back to you. So that takes us through that first one, improvements on page two. Let me slow you down for a minute. Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So in other words, your schemata of how do you define affordable housing, your mixed income, the low, moderate, middle income, all we're adopting.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Okay. Page two, in terms of improvements, we have added the word reconstruction. On page two, you'll see improvements means. And we really looked at what the definitions were within the TIF rules to look at that. Reconstruction is part of that. And then we just removed everything that was limiting or describing those specific things. Does not limit those. So as long as it's in service of the chapter to create low and moderate housing goes back to 1907, the section of the bill. So that's very expansive. Thank you going. The purpose, which is

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: 19 o four.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Section 19 o seven.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Give us a page of your advice. Page four. Sorry.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Just pass the definitions. Oh, pass the definitions. Oh, wait. Okay. The purpose is on page four.

[John Gray (Legislative Counsel)]: Of the side by side. Of the side by side. Sorry.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Oh, I thought you were working from there. Brad?

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Page four of the side by side. So we accepted your proposal to remove the word pilot.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Okay. In the interest of time, we should just go to the disagreements because these are

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: very important. Know, they have they have agreed to. Sorry. I'm sorry. I was on this. So here I started

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: The side by side, we are going with the we are removing Pilate on page four. So there is no difference between your purpose and our I don't Look at the bottom of very

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It just says no difference. Oh, sorry.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I'm sorry. At this point.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Got it. We're we're going through this way because it doesn't necessarily jump out where we made a change that where we agree. Okay. Go on.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: And number five, we are still proposing to include in the description of a housing development site and any immediately we're not agreeing to end any immediately contiguous parcels. Number k. Page seven. Also, I'm missing it. Seven. We still have in here the concept of bona fide domicile and perpetuity, and that is another point of disagreement where we have. The we agreed to are we there already? Yeah. On the BUTT4, which is on page eight. That's good. Yeah.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Is it, P. J?

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Yeah. Before. Yeah. So ours adopts what you had proposed. So, it takes out all the different three

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: guideposts. Remember, we had more language. Right. And which we thought was terrifying, we thought was confiscating, and so we're omitting it.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: At the bottom of page eight, a favorite of mine to change criterion to criteria because there's more than one.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Yep.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Thrilled. Really thrilled. It's really important to me.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Yeah. And that's

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: where we're told him, though. Yeah. He slipped it in. And

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: then on page nine, because we're talking about how to identify the amount of floor space. So it gives VEPSI the ability to either determine at least 65% of the floor area of the projected housing development is dedicated housing, or the projected housing development meaningfully addresses the purpose of section 19 o seven, which goes back to the 19 o seven section of the purpose on this page. So

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: it's fine. So we We have a we have a second a second Yep. Provision, which basically said they have discretion.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: So if it doesn't meet the 65%, it's like, alright. Can you just determine that it still meaningfully contributes to meeting the housing needs? Question about the 65%. Does it I don't think it does, but does a parking garage count as floor area in the building?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Good question. That is exact that is exactly the reason that we think that 65% is gonna have to be defined in guidelines or something like that by Vepcie. Because every time you use that kind of thing, that's exactly the kind of question they're gonna have to answer.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Which is why maybe Which is why

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: we didn't wanna we didn't wanna we didn't wanna get into the detail of of it. I mean, I think there's a strong argument that, you know, what if it's podium parking? What if it's a separate you know, I mean, that's the kind of thing they can deal with.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: But then they could probably deal with with figuring out the rest of it without a percent prescribed?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Well, we think that there's we, in this proposal, there's a percent because we think there needs to be some clear definition, and we don't think substantial does it.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: On the bottom of page nine, we still are retaining the idea of a cap using the lifetime education property increment retention. So you'll see that on additional points of agreements disagreements on page 10.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Sorry. So We haven't changed the cap.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I just can't read it. In the lifetime

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Education property tax increment retention.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That's a definition. That's just part of what's necessary for the outdoorsy of the cap. On

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: page 10, after our discussions yesterday, we agreed about having a longer timeline for Vepsy to approve or deny an application. So not later than sixty days following the site visit conducted as part of the application's review, provided the council may extend this period by not more than thirty days in extenuating circumstances. So that gives enough to two months.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: But sixty days after the site visit.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. With an additional thirty days if they need it. If possible. Yeah.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Sorry, Chris. What were you saying?

[Hunter (unidentified participant)]: No. I was just saying with the addition of thirty days if they need it for an extension.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Right. K. We still have alright. The but for was still in there. And then December 31. We still have in this proposal to you the program length at five years. Then yep.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Sorry. I lost you.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: I'm sorry. Page 10.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Yeah. Still on page And so you're still track you're still at 2031? Correct?

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Yep. 2031. 2031. Yes. And I'm sorry. The item above, number one, that was the meets the budget forecast, the process requirements, either of the project criteria, as senator Matos pointed out, either that 65% or meaningfully contributes to the housing needs of the community. Yeah. So it's an either or in that situation. So the limit is still 40,000,000. I believe Pat Titterton from the Joint Fiscal Office has offered to meet with anybody and talk through the math. If you wanna go over that. That might be a better use of time outside of our committee of conference.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Also, it's not literally in here, but you all know there's an extra 5,000,000 that the government made. It's 40,000,000 40,000,000 a year plus an extra 5,000,000 a year if necessary.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Just to be clear, the spreadsheet that Pat did was for 60% increment retention, which

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: is now

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: no longer in your proposal either.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: That's true? Right. Yep.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Okay. That can be adjusted. Alright. Okay. So now we are on to page go through twelve, thirteen, and on to page 14. You had asked for a different increment retention of seventy five and eighty five. We were at sixty and eighty. We came up to sixty five and eighty. That's our proposal at this point.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Sorry. And that is

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: On page 14 on line Yeah. Paragraph b subsection one. Is that the right one? Subparagraph b

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: One and two. Whatever's good. Subsection b.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Alright. B one and two. You've got 6580%.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Yeah. That's that section, so that's all reprinted there. And so page 17. Alright. This one is I need help with on this one.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Oh, good. You can't read it either? That describe I mean, the bottom line?

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On the criteria. Yeah. Okay. Right. So on the report annually, so we're looking for a report that describes the common reasons applicants to the community and housing infrastructure program failed to secure approval for tax increment. Financing includes for each housing infrastructure project approved pursuant to the subchapter of the following. Now we're on top of page 18. So we had discussions about really wanting to know what's working and what's not, not just the statistics on the ones that were approved. So it's not a necessarily detailed analysis, but we're looking for feedback.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. This is working or not working. Feedback on what's working at HubSpot.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Sorry. Yes, Hunter? Charlie, on the bottom of page 17 Yep.

[Hunter (unidentified participant)]: We're talking about project projects that failed to secure. And then number one is the date of the.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Yes. That's on the the entire report.

[John Gray (Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, okay. Jeez. Okay. Thought it stopped it. Yeah. The ones that failed.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Or or the ones that

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: didn't, you know, sort of just get At that. The capacity.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. Or, you know, why they didn't you know, was it was it that they couldn't demonstrate or produce the instrument? Was it that what was it? We just wanna know what's going on. We can fix. Yeah.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: And if you remember on page 18, there is an item that's missing because it was something that we took out. That was our requirement that the report include all the units that have been sold and offered. So that was problematic language that you had pointed out to us. So we adopted what you had proposed. And then go with the number five on the right hand side. As you can see, that's sales price for initial offerings of renting housing units. Right. And then the other difference are the 11 that you had suggested we agreed to, which is an evaluation of the amount of groundless growth attributable to housing development and the amount of groundless growth attributable to value appreciation. And c is still the sunset of 01/15/2031. We changed the date to because that was errantly written as 2030, so it was caught by alleged counsel to to align with the other part. And then again, on '19, one of my favorite changes is changing criterion to criteria.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Always meaning to know what scratches.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: On page 20, if we go to that, you'll see the removal of the shell for rulemaking. And it is really because of assurances that it was just a normal part of the process. We asked the Vermont Economic Progress Council to issue guidance for the implementation of a subchapter on or before 11/01/2025. I imagine they may be able to issue it sooner than that based on the discussions we've had at this time.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Are you there?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah. So

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: just our thought was that

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: the plan, if this works

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: That you'll be starting to implement January 1.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: That's right.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: So then if you work backwards, you're gonna need some guidelines for people to understand how the application is gonna work and

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Senator Randy Brock (Vice Chair)]: And what they can do. So that's why we put a, like, a November 1 deadline that you think that you can do it quicker or you need more time, but we thought that the sooner they get done, the sooner that applicants get those guidelines, the easier it would be for them to apply.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: And see that Sam has walked in the room. I would hope then they could be distilled and translated in some ways, not that you're easy to understand, for our towns and all municipalities so that we make it really something that is useful and

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: The last thing that we have not changed at this point is the sunset of TIF. So it's still at 12/31/2031. So that is our counterproposal on Chip. Chip.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: As as to non chip. Sorry. Where

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Not highlighted because it was not different. Yep. You don't have a countervailing

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: And just for my I'm sorry. I'm just slow there. We had a fire alarm at the Capitol Plaza. So anything that happens to me right now today, you have to prevent. Awesome. So where is the sunset at the

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: We're very animal.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: At the berry. Sunset. Right. Okay. Got it. That's it's not.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Can I ask a question of the affordable housing community? Yes? Going back to page seven, I just see Chris, I think, via your face watching is positive.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: That's right. Okay, so I'm here.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So on page seven, where it says, Any housing unit within the housing development be offered exclusively as a bona fide domicile in perpetuity. I think it was represented to us yesterday that this exists elsewhere in statute.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: I don't think that was ever represented.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: So this is a new concept?

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: It is our position. It it it's an but it's a new concept, and it's one I'm not sure our housing community supports. Okay.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I'm just asking, is this how you draft any affordable housing language, a bona fide domicile in perpetuity?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: That doesn't sound familiar to me, but

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Chris, for the record.

[Chris Donnelly]: Chris Donnelly with Shepard. Thank you.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Did you consult with the affordable housing community in drafting this language, ways and means?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. Because it's about it's not about affordable housing.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Did you talk to anyone in the housing community?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yes. Who was that? I don't think that cross examination about this is really meaningful at this point. It's our position. We've given you where we are. If you disagree with it, then make a counter

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I mean, I I think it's helpful to know who you talked to to write this language, but I don't think it came out of your committee.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I think This is a piece of Ways and Means.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: This is part of Ways and Means. Adopted by the house. The other the other issues are the non CHIPS issues I just wanna mention. Let's let's go. I don't it's not worth it at the moment. The reason is when you go through it, you'll see the two major issues that are out there are appeals, and I need to talk to Ellen. I haven't. I've asked Ellen to come by, see if she can come by, but she hasn't. So when I talk to Ellen There's a reference. Yeah, we can come back to you. And I have to talk to Representative Burroughs about the issue having to do with Universal Design. Design.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I did hear from Chad this morning, from VHFA. Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: And so I don't go away. So but I mean, we're I can't do that here. I need to just talk with each of these people, and then when we get back together, we'll be in a position

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I still I think it's a relevant question to ask who ways and means heard from to draft bonafide domicile in perpetuity.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Senator Ram, I think we expressed yesterday that our intent was to make sure that any public funds used to create housing would be for primary housing in perpetuity. That was the position of the Ways and Means Committee, or that is the position of the house as voted by the house.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: But you didn't hear from anybody?

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: We took a lot of testimony. I can't tell you specifically who testified in that specific word or that concept, but we took a lot of testimony over the weeks and months.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It would be a very new housing concept. So it it is relevant to us if you didn't hear that this is a phrase commonly used in any of our housing policy.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Or, in fact,

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: used And we have many other affordable housing grant programs that don't use this language.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I understand. I've practiced law in this area for thirty years, and I have seen many restrictions placed on properties using a simple covenant. A covenant is a very common way of doing things.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Have you seen bonafide domicile in perpetuity?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: It doesn't matter. It's the same thing. It's easy. Banks, the property lawyers, the real estate agents are the ones who effectively administer it.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And did not testify on this.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: I think we should.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Okay, so Deepak, we're good to go. But the non CHIP, we're down to just the appeals and universal study and everything else.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: I have some language on immigrant care housing that Cameron I worked have confirmed that the Landlord's Association, works for. I have not confirmed with migrant justice that it works for them, but I think we're getting closer.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Yep.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: And that's you have that. Our position

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Is that the Our position is to stick with the language in 01/27. That is it just lists the three options, not showing any preference for any one of them, one way or the other.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: That's still in this. It's section two as we discussed yesterday. Yeah. That's the change.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: It's the number two is the challenge in the fair housing.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: It's on page nine.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Page nine of the

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: Whatever my proposal, sign by sign.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: The issue was in number two, which is highlighted in yellow, which I think we need to update that language.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: Is it a position of

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right. Right. Right. This is we've left it. We'd love to see your proposal. That's right.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: And I think Cam has. Cam has. Thank you. Okay.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: So at this point, I think we should break. Right.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I just wanted to say on universal design, Chad did confirm that they had supported the notion that it'd be very focused, but I sent off Chad's comments to Mike DeRosier, so would make hear that.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Alright.

[Hunter (unidentified participant)]: Can I just add ask one more question about bona fide domicile in perpetuity? Did you hear anything in ways and means about how that affects value for the homeowner? Because I've been in real estate deals where people won't go forward with something based on covenants that are out there.

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: So we didn't and my personal experience is working with a nonprofit that creates permanent housing for permanent residents. And that in looking at a deed restriction to restrict it to just primary residents does have an effect on value. It does. We did not receive testimony on that, but this is that program is copied over after programs that are unveiled, also on Bozeman, other places throughout the country, to protect primary housing. In terms of the impact on market value, it varies. Some of those programs actually have a market unto themselves, and it's a very fast turnover market. Did you hear anything about, you know, if it

[Hunter (unidentified participant)]: has to be a bonafide domicile, did you hear anything about folks that, you know, we have an older state and maybe they wanna go to Florida for the wintertime so they're not gonna be a full time Vermont resident? Would that kick them out of that housing that they're in?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. They can rent it out, but they can't rent it out short term. I think that but to answer in the spirit of what you're saying, yes, I do. My own view is that I agree with Charlotte. It affects value. And in fact, one of the things we're dealing with in Vermont is this explosion of short term rentals is because short term rentals generally do create, you know, they're more profitable. So if we wanna regulate in any way short term rentals, we're going to be reducing property values

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: from

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: what they theoretically can be. It's just a choice. If we don't do that, well, then we are stuck with the short term rentals. It's one or the other.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Or or seasonal. I mean, because I would say short term rental and seasonal

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: ownership is really a huge impact. 18

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: or 17%.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Right.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: The other piece I just wanted to bring up in the non chip stuff was the VHFA language on off-site construction. They if you see Chad's email to all of us this morning, they do not support keeping the language in if there's no money. VHFA? Yeah. I'm just saying. There are two pieces. The first piece was about confirming that they had supported the very focused universal design And the second piece was if the HFA does not have the capacity, we would kindly ask the conference committee to remove this section of S-one 127, unless there are resources made available to complete the work.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Okay. We'll have to I think we have to talk to them. Assume for your purposes that it's in because that is a complete 180 degree change of their position. Just one your greatest I want to know more about it. Okay.

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: That's that's what they told us. That if there were no resources, they that's why we took that out.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: What they told us. So I'd like to There we

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: go. We go. Right. It's just

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: not a misrepresentation.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: No. I'm not saying it's in the future. I know that. I would never think that. Yeah. Absolutely. Alright. Okay.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: We are going to go off and concur and talk to and do our vote on PINS code. And then when do we wanna reconvene?

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: Whenever you're ready. You're ready. You want to pick a time, an estimated time, and then the

[Charlie (House conferee, Ways & Means)]: next day.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: I'd say 11:30. I think that's safe.

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: As long

[Senator Kesha Ram Hinsdale (Member)]: as we have counsel.

[John Gray (Legislative Counsel)]: I don't know what my life will be like. Right now, I'm told that things are happening, and I need to talk to someone, but I am here now.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: Might Okay. You join us in the cloakroom

[Senator Alison Clarkson (Chair)]: for Yes. Twenty Let's do it.

[Senator Thomas Chittenden (Member)]: That's even on the same floor, and you have to go by the slideshow. So if you have any downtime, make sure you check out the slideshow. Okay. Can now we're in the steps, and