Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Member)]: We are live.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Are you Are

[Sen. Philip Baruth (Member)]: with UVM English? Yeah. Center

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Appropriations, May 21. We're trying to overt Bill, Bill H five forty two about recent lead testing in schools. We heard testimony information about it. Remember that was two days ago. I don't know if people did Ezra send this email to everybody? Yeah. I could ask Ezra himself. He heard us here. Okay. So we had he answered the questions that we had about estimates and average costs and things like that. Also, we had asked health and welfare to look into it. They they had met shortly, and my understanding is that they agreed with the finance position on the extension of the Were you in there for that? Yes. They

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: took a straw vote to support the extension to 2035. They didn't really address the underlying senate education report on the special fund in construction. Senator said she wanted that from the very beginning, you know, in 2021, but there wasn't total consensus on for us to, like, report just on the extensions. Okay. Senator Benz, I have to leave. So Okay.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: So I think that unless there's other questions that are are out there, that's really down. We're waiting for if I remember. Did we hear how much was in the environmental Is that on here? Yes. Yes. 3.17. Yeah. Do you wanna say anything about it, sir? Yeah, that's your old joint fiscal office. Yeah, to clarify, the 3.17 is the unobligated available funds. The fund has more in it, but that's been preserved for other purposes. So that's what this may have been. And are these eligible uses for the fund or we'd have to legislate and say that this is an eligible use? I can't answer that. We've drawn from it before. Just don't know what's the main purpose.

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So definitely for any release of PCV that's found, the the environmental contingency fund is is authorized for that. And there it's it's likely authorized for investigation as well when there's effectively a known use of PCBs at a school, which pretty much every school for your Yeah. As a suspected use of PCBs. So would ANR just can they just draw from it, or did they have to

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: make a request to draw from it?

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: They they have the ability to spend money from pcf on their own but they generally reserve it for specific hazardous materials releases because as Andrew just said, there's not that much that's unencumbered or unallocated already, and so they like to have a buffer. So if something like an oil spill happens or or the FOA is found somewhere, they may have the ability to to respond without coming from the general assembly for just.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: So I heard Mr. Brady recently about your straw poll in the Is there anything else you want to say?

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Member)]: No, we don't have time for our committee to go through a thorough analysis of and review of the PCB testing. Michael Brady gave us a great review, it was very helpful, and I think Senator Bulik was there, who's been very much engaged in this. We agree that keeping the testing going is important with or without a fund that has lots of money in it, but knowing that it should happen and we can't let it drop. So we would endorse the, we call it the F-thirty five amendment from finance to go to 2035. That's pretty fine.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Member)]: Objections to the name, but I'm sorry.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Member)]: No, we felt that the continuing opportunity for testing should funds be available is important and I just see the analysis. I got an email about how much it will cost Yeah, the that one. Then So if there's money available, then, you know, it can happen. Knowing, yes, then repairs have to happen. They don't have a capital budget for capital improvements. We don't need to keep this stuff out the hallways in the schools.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: It sounds like there is the money in the fund, and can, A and R can make use of that. Did you have another suggested fund meeting yesterday? Just the contingency list. Oh, right. You know, if it was first or second on that list, probably get.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Member)]: But I know we already have

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: things slated for that. Right? Okay. Any other questions? Concerns? I do have a question. Maybe it's for Mr. O'Grady. Some of the in North Country Union High School where they have been doing tests. And she said by the end of June, we spent approximately 9,200,000 on PCB remediation mitigation efforts all the 500,000 going to North Metro High School. And we haven't actually gotten rid of any PCBs yet. $9,200,000, and I haven't even addressed getting rid of any PCBs yet. So what what does that mean? Like, will we testing? Addressing the wrong? Or what does that mean?

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: One of the things one of the ways to respond to high levels of PCBs in air is to try to mitigate encapsulated to put in measures such as fans or things of that type that reduce the levels below the action levels that are have been determined to be harmful to the there's three action levels depending on your age and your exposure. So removing it, that that can that can actually trigger federal requirements and meaning you have to remove all of it. So if you can mitigate it first and reduce the action levels or reduce all of the action levels that might be more appropriate and actually less cost. So

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: is there anything on record that somehow we get confused with multiple other routes? PCB testing, has anybody suffered with PCB testing in the state of Vermont that went down? And have

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: they suffered from PCB testing? PCB, you're trying

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: to identify and take out the schools and say,

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: has anybody got sick from these PCBs? Well, there's actually litigation ongoing. Individual teachers, school employees, who claim that their exposure over time has caused multiple health effects, but nothing concrete as of yet. I don't know where that litigation is in the process.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Member)]: Well, I can tell you, going back fifteen or more years ago, there was another lawsuit that was settled with having terms were not released, but it was settled and the people were alleging that they had been harmed by environmental factors in the parts that turned out to be incredibly contaminated with PCBs. So I think there is plenty of physical evidence on the ground that people were injured.

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The health effects of PCBs have been known for forty plus years, and the effects that they can have, cancerous carcinogen, reproductive, endocrine, was just pretty long. And that's why they have been phased out in in almost every use. Electric railroad construction that that is eliminated, but they're persistent. So they stay in the.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Yeah. It's been a.

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: Could I just clarify something so I understand it better, maybe with Ezra? In your in your email where you say the average inventory cost of a small school is about 70 7,900, For large schools, 17,000. When you say inventory, is that are you are you saying that the testing that needs to be done in all the small schools will amount to 7 maybe it's $7.19. No. 7. $7.07. Wait. What does that mean, actually?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Sure. So this is and I actually have a little table I can share if you would like me to. Yeah. That's easy to me. Yeah. We like tables, drafts, figures. A puppet show would be ideal. No no no puppet shows. So let's zoom in a little bit here. So this is what ANR robotic. I don't know what happens to be. There we go. So, that is thousands, not millions. So if the school is considered small, and I would have to have ANR or DEC clarify what they consider small, the average inventory cost is $7,918 per school, and then the average sampling cost is $13,270 per school. Those are the things that they provided me, and as you can see, it increases as the size of the spool changes. Again, I can't explain what the cutoff is for small, medium, large.

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: No, I'm good with that, but what I'm wondering is what does inventory mean?

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So inventory is the presampling assessment. So where they they go to a school, they do a site visit, they identify where they wanna do the sampling, where there might be sources. It's it's kind of boots on the ground assessment, and then they put in the sampling

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: equipment to to do the sampling over time to do it. So you add those two together, that's your cost for that small school?

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You know? Right. Well, that's that's that's your right. Pre pre results cost.

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: No remediation. No remediation, just the testing is complete when you do the sampling cost to those. We

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: have like 170 schools. A 170

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: schools left to do sampling. 145 left to do inventories.

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: And then and to follow-up, the number that we were given yesterday, 4.5 that's in the bill would cover what what does it maybe I don't know if you

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: We're 4.5, that was the original appropriation in 2021. Oh. Right? And that's where the date, the deadline was set as well. And so it's session law, so I I can't really go back and tailor the amendment. No. I I think I just

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: I didn't read far enough

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: on here. 05/21, then do what we need to do now. Yeah. Okay.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: I can't remember if there is money in the bill.

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: There's no money in the bill. There's reference to the 2021 appropriation because that's where the deadline is.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: So we probably if we took money out of the emergency, the environmental fund, they could probably they wouldn't even get the wrong. Right.

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And and I believe Ezra's email says that A and R's preference is to use whatever money that is appropriated is to bring those schools with access action levels up to to to mitigate to mitigate and remediate where necessary instead of doing new investigation. Right.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Oh, wait. So so there is an appropriation in there?

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No appropriation. No money right now. The special fund. So the the revenue The education amendment. Right. They create that fund. They create that fund with the They put it in. The contemplated revenue source is the recovery from litigation, the ongoing litigation.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: So what are we voting on here? Voting on the best bill. It's kinda commend. Yeah. And it and the bill is as amended by education, added a special fund that could get money from litigation, postponed the deadline for testing. And then the finance committee will postpone the deadline for testing if further out the point thirty two? Five.

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: With the company 35. That's the that's 37.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Member)]: That's how we

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: I personally can support the 3.17, sorry, which is not obligated for this as long as we're not putting more money into it at

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: this particular point of time.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: We're not. I guess the big question is are we obligating the state if we do testing? The law says that we will pay for testing or remediation. So if there's testing and they need remediation, obligated to pay for it by statute by itself. That amount of

[Sen. Richard Westman (Member)]: Colon, plus, if if you're actively testing, minute people find out their school is affected, there's a demand for immediate remediation. So it's

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: not gonna be good to tell your constituents we'll get to it the next by any of them. It's like some schools have gotten the remediation, spend that money. So is it fair to tell the other school we don't have any more money to test liability? Is

[Sen. Richard Westman (Member)]: it fair to say, well, we just don't know. Right. It it and and some I I mean, I would hate to think that we've got kids in a school that is

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Yeah. And we started with the they started with the youngest children, and not moving up by age group. So to this so of the 170 schools to test, I assume more high schools than elementary schools.

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: Just another question that's probably not in the bill, but what about schools who have been tested and remediated on their own dying? Are they trying look for reimbursement?

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Well, the reimbursement is only if you tested under the requirement, the state requirement to test. So if you go out and do your own testing, say you tested under the state requirement and you were underneath the action levels, then you go out and you test on your own and somehow you find above the action levels. Or what will probably more likely happen is you propose to do construction, and then your construction assessment is determined that there are PCB materials materials present that exceed the federal level, then you're gonna have to rip them out and dispose of them the way that Burlington did. And then there's a decision about what you do and how you do what.

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: So the only way you you were eligible for reimbursement is if you were tested and you were above the levels? You tested according to the state program. According to the state program. You're in that case, you wouldn't self fund it at that point anyway. But

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: you might have to do immediate, like a north country.

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right. So you might spend, but then submit for reimbursement.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: And they're still in the process of mediation there or

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: just do avoidance stage? I I I know they were in mitigation stage.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: I don't know if they moved past mitigation. What's after remediation? What's the next? Yeah. Removal. Right. If you can't just treat, you can't just ventilate your way up. Or to encapsulate it. But in some ways, which I think that's what Cabot ended up being able to do in their gym, was just do enough ventilation where they didn't

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: have to remove Yeah. Because it

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: was close. We

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: have this problem with tests coming back. It's kind of different,

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: like Right. It can the results can vary according to temperature. Temperature is a significant

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: You can you can do a bunch of work, then or you can fail by a little bit, do a bunch of work, and it could be worse. Okay. Have other questions, concerns, accolades? Okay. So I'll entertain a motion to pass the bill favorably as amended by the other committees.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Member)]: So moved.

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: What's the bill we voted for?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: This is called page five forty two. Know what the bill number

[Sen. Richard Westman (Member)]: is. So

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: what are we allocating?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: 3.17? There's money money. There's in that fund, which can't be used for this. If Ann Arch still chooses to use it, we're saying that the schools have another, Bill 2,035, they'd be obligated to do the testing with them, and that ANR shall do the testing. ANR, we're not telling ANR to do the testing on search timelines. What the House proposed was to stop the testing program. We're disagreeing with that and setting up a special fund that could take funds from the lawsuit and work pushing the obligation back once a time. So we're allocating any funds. You could discuss after the motion.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Member)]: I hate what the house did, I hate this, you know, since.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Right. I mean, no PCBs.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Member)]: A lot of PCBs.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Member)]: Well, and every kid gets sick in the picture, are we liable?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Especially if we know the arm and we stop testing. Yes. Sometimes it's not children, it's the staff, because they could be there every day, all day for twenty years with a child, whatever, there for six years or forty years.

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: That makes it very comfortable.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: But it worse for small children.

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: Impact.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Member)]: This bill had to be built for 1980, wasn't it?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Was.

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: Yeah. I

[Sen. Richard Westman (Member)]: don't know if it's.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: There are still things in. Okay. Without further Okay. Comment or question, the clerk shall call me home. Senator Baruth?

[Sen. Philip Baruth (Member)]: Yes.

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: Senator Brennan? Yes. Senator Delaya? Yes. Senator Norris?

[Sen. Robert Norris (Member)]: Reluctantly, yes. Senator Watson. Yes. Senator Westman. Yeah.

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: Pardon me?

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: A lot

[Sen. Richard Westman (Member)]: of commentary and stuff.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Alright. Yeah.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Member)]: You know what I think about about it too, just in general, is who's to say that what we're doing now is any better? Well, we're gonna find out in ten years. Turns out this other chemical that you've never heard of turns out to be super toxic. And the thing that when we replaced it with you know what I mean? Like, the levels of checks on new chemicals pretty much doesn't exist unless you're put out the things in. This is iron food. Not even in the food. It's not even in the food. Not anybody like, man, maybe we shouldn't be doing this. Like, the water in the checks on those

[Sen. Richard Westman (Member)]: new But they they keep it on top. I know it was

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Member)]: We need to fix the Costco. Yeah. We didn't fix that.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Member)]: But the difference You

[Michael O’Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: just roll back, Pascas. Yeah. Breathe in. Roll back to roll back.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Member)]: That's what

[Sen. Richard Westman (Member)]: We have I can I can only deal with what I know, and I

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: know That's what I thought, Brandon? That's what I thought. It sounded like somebody that wanted to report the bill. That if you wanted to report the bill and you said yes.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Member)]: Cool. I guess, you know, I don't have enough going on.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: And once report that bill, do you mind

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: if I a lot?

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Member)]: No. That's fine. Whatever. I don't know if that's the problem. I think there's other

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: Well, there's a lot of problems.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Member)]: I think there's a lot of problems. It may not be that one. See.

[Sen. Richard Westman (Member)]: There's a

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: lot of problems. Okay. So that's the work we have. Tomorrow, we're gonna pick up seven seventy two. I've been making before too. But the property's committee don't want it. Don't receive

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: if we get off the solar. Yep.

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: You could try to move to

[Sen. Anne Watson (Member)]: the conference committee. Yeah. You

[Sen. Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: could be on alert.

[Sen. Virginia "Ginny" Lyons (Member)]: I alert everyone. Are we adjourned