Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Alright.

[Virginia “Ginny” Lyons (Member)]: We are live.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Good morning. To see you. To see Alright. This is back to senate appropriations on January 13, the grounds of the Budget Adjustment Act requests. We have Department of Corrections for this. Today, I'll let you introduce yourselves for the record. Thanks for coming.

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: Yes. Hello. I am John Murad. I'm the interim commissioner for the Department of Corrections. I'm Marlene Petit, the executive director of finance for the Department of Corrections. Wonderful.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: So we'll let you tell us what your budget adjustment is. Anything else you want to talk about? Mean, your new commissioner, we have the department, I'll kind of go through what he sees as his priorities. I don't If you have an introduction like that, we're well willing to hear it, but if you also want to just get in here by the adjustment request, we can do that too.

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: I'll try split the difference and give you a very brief introduction, but then we'll be right into what Marlene is bringing to us with regard to budget. Yes. The I have joined the Department of Corrections as of August, appointed in an interim capacity by the governor. It has been an incredible experience thus far. I had previously spent twenty years in law enforcement, most recent five of which were seven actually of which were in the Burlington Police Department, where I finished as the Chief of Police in Burlington. And as a front and theater of the correctional system, as it were, I really didn't know a lot about the correctional system. What I have learned has been absolutely just fascinating and impressive. The people with whom I get to work every day, especially on our executive team, are really amazing folks. They come to this job dedicated and thoughtful and desirous of continuous improvement. And I have really been gratified to get to work with them. Our system is a tough one. It's a system that really operates oftentimes underneath the radar for most people. I think the average citizen really doesn't want to think too much about what goes on in corrections, and yet it is a necessary part of a functioning civil society when we know that some people will be adjudicated by a long legal process not to be able to participate in that society in normal ways for various periods of time. We don't control the number of people that are sent to us. That long judicial process that I spoke of is something that is separate from our department, and that is as it should be. But what we have been sent by that long process has grown over the last several years, so that we now have more people who are incarcerated and or under our supervision than we have since before the pandemic. And that is a stress on us as we contemplate our capacity at the facilities, the six facilities that we have in the state, and on our 12 probation and parole offices. Vermont is one of only five states in the country that operates what is called a unified system. We don't have sheriff's jails. We obviously have sheriffs in each of our counties, but none of those sheriffs operates a jail as they do in the vast majority of other states in America. And as a result, we have people who are not and only have been incarcerated to be with us for some period of time. We also have people who are detained and may be with us for a much shorter period of time, whether they're held without bail awaiting trial, or whether they're merely held over a weekend because they got arrested on a Friday and they can't be arraigned until Monday morning, at which point they will be released. We have all of that in our system, and we have the folks who either never go to prison per se because they are given parole, excuse me, probation, or people that we parole from the system, or the parole board paroles, or people that we as a department furlough from our system and put under supervision. So there's about sixteen fifty people who are currently incarcerated and or detained in our facility, and about 4,500 people who are under our supervision. And that number has grown a lot over the last couple of years, and I think that our budget is gonna reflect some of that, particularly some of the ups and downs that we've seen. But we are committed to presenting, certainly I can't speak about the budget to come, but we're committed to presenting a budget that does, maximizes the money that our neighbors have given us to do this very important work. And with that, I

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: will turn it over to the The numbers include the out of state?

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: Yes, sixteen fifty incarcerated people includes our 150 people out of state. That number grew a little bit recently. I directed that we send down approximately 30 people back in November. That was the first time that we sent that large number of people since prior to the pandemic, and that is a function of our capacity struggles.

[Philip Baruth (Member)]: By sending down, you mean out of state?

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: Correct, I apologize. Out of state is Mississippi. We contract with a facility in Tuckwiller, Mississippi, which is in the Mississippi Delta.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Senator Bert,

[Philip Baruth (Member)]: before you get into your budget, that just marked a question for me. So at sixteen fifty, would you say you are completely at capacity?

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: We are overcapacity in some of our facilities, and overall, we are at capacity or above capacity already.

[Philip Baruth (Member)]: We are either overcapacity or underfills. Okay. And second question would be about our recently signed agreement with Customs and Border Protection, which continued our relationship with them and and in effect with ICE. What I'm wondering is my understanding of that contract allows us to turn away additional detainees if we're at or beyond capacity. Is there any thought of doing that?

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: We have done that in many times. So the number of immigration detainees is a very small number overall compared to the totality of folks that we have and compared to the total number of people who are in our custody on federal rioters. The immigration detainees largely do not come from our relationship with the Customs and Border Patrol. They largely are given they're included on our contract with the US Marshals. We are able to turn away immigration detainees when we are over capacity. So for example, at Chittenden Regional Correctional Facility in South Burlington, which is our only women's facility, and is desperately in need of a new facility, which this body has generously approved, but finding a place and being able to build it is an ongoing issue for us, and something that we're working hard on. At that facility, we are currently, I think it was 180 yesterday, I think it was 170 something this morning, that is over the capacity of the place, and we will not accept female detainees from immigration enforcement. Immigration enforcement knows that, and has not presented any female detainees to us in But some if we fall below 170, we would once again take a number that would bring us back to 170. We cannot, the reason we do that and cap it is that I cannot say no to the Bristol Police Department if they bring me a female who has been arrested and needs to be held over the weekend. But I will say no, or our staff will say no to immigration The same has happened for male federal immigration detainees at our Northwest facility in Swanton. It happens less frequently, owing to the fact that that facility has, actually does have a little bit of space right now with regard to capacity. Although our entire system is over, certain facilities have more wiggle room than others. Swanson currently does, but it has at times also turned away additional detainees OA2 capacity issues.

[Philip Baruth (Member)]: Well, great. I'm glad to hear that that's the ongoing opposite.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Senator Lyons, you had a question?

[Virginia “Ginny” Lyons (Member)]: Well, is related to this, and I know that you've testified at Joint Justice about all of these issues, and I appreciate that. When we talk about capacity, you're talking about beds available, also we'll be talking about staffing. So some of that, is some of that staffing related how much, if any? I have another question.

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: Our staffing is not where we want it to be right now, and staffing deficit is about 12% from the entire department. It's more pronounced in the Correctional Officer I and Correctional Officer II race, which is where we really get most of the people who guard folks on a Florida facility. That said, that staffing deficit is not what causes us to be at capacity. There have been times where we had shut down certain parts of facilities owing to staffing. That is not currently the case. I believe that every single, and I would look to Deputy Commissioner Christian Caliber, but every part of our facilities right now is open for business as it were. No. I don't speak a little bit like that, but they

[Virginia “Ginny” Lyons (Member)]: are all open and capable of being used. So the other question relates to the housing issue when people are in transition and being released and maybe they can't get to a recovery residence or another housing facility and how much is that pushing back and limiting access on the

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: other end? Terrific question. The number of people that we are currently holding owing to an inability to release them because they don't have housing available is very small. I don't know what the exact number is, but it's small. It's probably actually smaller than the total number of immigration detainees we currently

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: Sure, yeah.

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: We have about 20, I think we have about 20 immigration detainees this morning, but there are, it's a relatively small number of people who would otherwise be furlough or parole eligible, but for lack of housing. I would find that, let me find that number for you so that I don't inadvertently state That your would actually

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: be very helpful. One more question, same topic. Are employees still required to do mandatory overtime?

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: In many facilities, yes, we have mandatory overtime, and that is, we tend to do it in ways that work for individual employees, so if we had overtime and everybody at this table was about to go home, we would try to get volunteers for that rather than order, but we are in a position where we have to, we continue to

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: have to order overtime. And are they strategies to try to get more employees, or? We

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: are doing pretty well with regard to hiring employees. Our challenge right now is retaining employees, and a component of the retention is the fact that we do in fact order overtime.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: That's right.

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: And so there is money available, which is nice, but you know, money at some point ceases to be equal to the stress of having four or even five sixteen hour shifts in a row. Yeah. And so, know, it is a certain catch point too that in order to stop the overtime we have to get more employees, but in order to keep the employees that we are successfully hiring, we need less overtime. So, we're hopeful that we're moving sort of in the right direction on that snowball role, but it is, we're not there yet.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Okay, Sarah Watson?

[Kristen Halbert (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: I've heard in other parts of the world, detainees have to pay for calls. What is

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: the practice about paying for communication from their facilities? Our detainees all have access to tablets, and from those tablets they can make calls to approved people. Okay.

[Kristen Halbert (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: And at no cost to them, or? Yeah. Sure. I'm Kristen Halbert, Deputy Commissioner for the record. There's a number of different ways they can make calls, attorney calls, they're all free, so they have access to representation that way. They have to have funds on their commissary account to be able to access the video visitation or phone calls from their tablet, or even a traditional phone call from the wall mounted unit, but those are the two general pathways.

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: Hi. I'm. I'm gonna start off with personal services under section b point three three eight. And I know you all have the subrics that I just got to go through it briefly. I cannot even. Unless you want to do it.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: You said all of them, you only have another half state. Right. It's it's the two. And to be honest with you, that is the cover.

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: Okay. So personal services, shares transport extraditions due to increased profit volume, and the 83,000 is for an already approved agreement. We were never provided with the funds, and the service is being utilized more, and this is primarily for winter share. The next item is well past staffing. Our contract amendment would allow for us to increase the average daily population above 15.5 in bookings. No previous contract. Well, and it did not have anything built into it for increases. So that's what the amendment did. It also provided part of that is also the Grounds and Recovery Response Project and the section eleven fifteen. So that is increase of 4.550643. The next item is a net neutral. It's a transfer from AAS. It's a carry forward, but we just need to have it in the BAA in order to receive it. And that is 3.168537.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Can I stop you? I have a question about the global commitment. What expenses are held for global commitment in the healthcare council, but if that is the Europe, you can build the global commitment within your system. It says it roughly relates to the random motion, moment in time study, which I don't know if that was.

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: Oh, that's the next one down, number four? Yes. Okay. The first one on mine is yes. Okay. The revenue offset, the global commitment increased. So we have not done that in the past. We are doing it now this year. And so in order to and using that, we should be able to offset with the with 2.5 new global commitment to offset the general fund.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: And what is the random moment I'm studying? So I can give you a

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: general understanding of that, but I I believe deputy commissioner Calvert has acknowledged.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: I'm ready to go.

[Kristen Halbert (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: The random over time study is the process we use to quantify time spent that our probation officers are doing for Medicaid eligible activities. By having that statistic using that system

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: What would be the good point?

[Kristen Halbert (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: Sure. Getting a person on probation referral connected with medical services or transportation to a medical appointment or something of that nature. So this allows us, it gives us not a trail to quantify the use of those funds. And we found an increase in that time that they're spending. So that's why we're able to put forth an offset to trouble finding.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Before you didn't do that? Didn't We did not. Were ineligible for global commitment, but you didn't have a body

[Kristen Halbert (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: Correct. Yeah, we had a very old on paper time study since maybe 2012 or somewhere in there, and had been relying on that data the entire time. This gives us support for the use of those funds and it has increased.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: That's good. Senator Norris? Yeah. Before we leave personal services, I did have a question on line item one, sheriff's transports and expeditions. Indicates of $83,000.

[Robert Norris (Member)]: I guess that can become more commemorate, most of them are in Windsor County, but why is the DOC funding money for sheriff's extraditions? The extraditions are for people that are are either, for example, people under

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: our supervision who get arrested in other states or people who are who were and then need to be brought back. It is not Windsor happens to be the sheriff's office that has the bulk of that contract. So it doesn't really have anything to do with Windsor County, for example, or with their sheriffs getting arrestees from Windsor. This is instead people who are extradited from other locations back to our facilities or custody of anything.

[Robert Norris (Member)]: So then this is separate from the SAS responsibility of extraditions? Yes.

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: Okay. One is pre conviction and the other is host.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: All right, thank you. Thank you.

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: The next item is under operating services, is for southern facility, water sewer bill. There was an agreement in place and it's now expired for new arms to pay the cost, and so that has increased 1,000 for federal funds. The next item is fee for space charge, pilot fund increase of 55,000, and that's a special fund increase.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Now if you've got that one up, what is that? Why is it coming from pilot funds? Is it?

[Kristen Halbert (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: Sure. When we built actually, it's both our Newport facility and the Springfield facility, and it's in the agreements we have with the town, and that's where the funds were originally appropriated. Each year, that number increases based on the consumer price index, and so we've had to absorb the additional fund, additional expense in general fund over the years.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: It's just an inflationary

[Kristen Halbert (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: Yeah, just an inflationary percentage that's applied.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: And it's always come from the pilot fund.

[Kristen Halbert (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: Correct, yeah. You just can't absorb it in our regular judgment budget anymore.

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: The next item is staff hotel costs. Hotel costs were short turnarounds, staff transporting, and that has been unbudgeted, and the increase is up to $125,000.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: A $100,000? Is that reasonable?

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: $225,000.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Got it, that's it. And it's all just hotel? There's not other support?

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: It's just the hotel. The next item is heat mitigation, which is DOC policy number three two two, and it's for it includes things such as equipment, fans, clothing, breathable warm weather, shorts, like shirts, water, and other cold refreshments related to the policy and OSHA recommendations, which is a decrease of 60,000.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Great. Can I ask, I know that this is Jeff?

[Philip Baruth (Member)]: Sorry, Greg. I'm just curious because there's been a long run Mhmm. Debate about air conditioning, and I assume this is mitigation in the absence of air conditioning. And I'm wondering what the current thinking is at DOC on primary air conditioning facilities?

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: That would be a question for not only DOC, but also for BGS. Yeah. And it would be a pretty large undertaking. I believe there are plans available right now to actually increase, to improve HVAC on some of the facilities, but doing it for all is, would be prohibitive at the time being. These mitigations are really, as you pointed out, are in lieu of something that we cannot yet obtain if we don't see obtaining before it gets hot again.

[Philip Baruth (Member)]: When you say HVAC improvements, that wouldn't be for all. Are we talking about staff areas with the air pollution, but not detention areas?

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: It would I believe that we would be starting with office facility, the office parts of the building. The ability to move air conditioning into existing cells is a much, much larger lift insofar as infrastructure changes. I I guess I would just encourage

[Philip Baruth (Member)]: that we pull out from, you know, building considerations or even budgetary considerations and just think about it from the humane aspect. Yeah. If we spend state money to air conditioned offices, that, you know, because I'm assuming that these heat navigation measures are not necessarily going to inmates.

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: They're they're for staff. These mitigation issues are describing things for staff.

[Philip Baruth (Member)]: Yes. So I as one senator, I would be glad to see a plan, a long range plan to air conditioning all of our facilities. We only have, as you say, 1,600, 1,500. That's by most of That's the a very tiny group of people. Seems like we should be able to take a condition in a globally long environment, beyond just staff offices. My view.

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: Thank you, sir. Yes, I I hear you, Senator. Certainly we want A component of custody is care. A huge component. At a certain point, it becomes a care issue. Certainly it is so for our employees who have to wear much more. A component the issue for why keep maybe more striking for them is that they have equipment that they have to wear, their clothing that they

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: have to

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: wear. They also have to be able to function in ways to be able to sort of move through our facility and be ready for the work that they're doing. That however is not an indication or an excuse for the idea that the people in our care, incarcerated individuals with community or untrusted suffering these wounds, he did moments as well. Figuring out how to address that could absolutely be something for everything. I don't know that any of

[Kristen Halbert (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: I can add to that. Yeah, for the last couple of years, we've been putting forth capital bill requests to get HVAC air conditioning specifically at all of our facilities. Because of the large expense, it's kind of been piecemealed out. We have around, I think, 9,000,000 secured for Southern State, being that is the facility where most of the folks with severe medical needs are housed. And so it just made sense from that perspective. We're also securing funding for kind of cooling areas that address whole staff and incarcerated individuals. We already have in our budget to be able to provide incarcerated folks, you know, cold beverages and things of that nature. And so that's why this policy only addresses the SAC portion, but we are taking steps to address the

[Philip Baruth (Member)]: incarcerated folks. And when we have VGS, if they ask you.

[Kristen Halbert (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: Yeah. They can provide detail on the project status. Yeah. And then how we're gonna manage facilities. Northwest needs a new roof, and so it needs to be done prior to kinda mounting HVAC systems there. So there are kinda lasting a queue just for

[Philip Baruth (Member)]: Got it. Thank you.

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: Yeah. Just two more. AES service lettering grievance transfer from AES, is AES net interest level increase of 215,000. The last item is, Commissioner, main discuss, was the production line of state beds, which is an increase of 389,965, and that is for additional out of state beds. Yeah. They're speeding by now or 50 this year. And why was I have

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: a question about last time. Why did the ADS SLA get switched from human services? That's what happened, like the human service used to pay, then they're like, well, you pay it now?

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: ADS,

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: it's not that human services used to pay it, it's to try to offset the amount of cost for ADS, with five transfers, but their funds go over because of the increases that we have.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: And then the well path, when we saw this, and Commissioner Gresham was in clear when he presented it, the the $4,500,000 increase, is it Yeah. Go over the $1,005.25. So if you get the 1,526, you pay another 4 and a half million dollars? Or is that just like a prorated amount now that you're at 1,600? You know what I mean?

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: So the the way that the way this the contract is the original contract, as I said, was based on an average daily population of

[Virginia “Ginny” Lyons (Member)]: up to 1,250

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: with no ability to increase. We are so young. So in October, we amended the contract with, like, ADP of up to fifteen fifty, keeping in mind that some of those incarcerated are in Mississippi, so they're not under the answer. And so the per incarcerated per month cost is multiplied by 1,500, not $15.50, but by 1,500, which the average daily population is between fourteen fifty and fifteen fifty, so 15 hundred's in the middle of that, that, it's an average of each.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Do they get better, isn't it? Every month changes based on the emergency?

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: The contract this year has been written based on the 1,500, And so, we will be going through a renewal, another amendment. Right now, it's based on the 1,500, even up to the fifteen fifty. But

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: does it get calculated every month, or is it just

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: We're just using that 1,500 every month. For the budget. This year,

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: for the twenty sixth. Contract, do you actually only get billed by the number of payments that we need for that month, or is it too selective? We're assuming it's gonna be around 15 to 15, so

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: We're just using that 1,500 to calculate per bill. So that's what is being used against it. That's what

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: you pay, pay invoice fee that way? Yes. And

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: the amount is a specific amount, the same amount each month once the contract was amended.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: So after that amendment doesn't matter how many? Well,

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: at this point they're gonna

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: It went over $15.50.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Right. It's underneath, you know, there's not a savings, at least for this contract. Their

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: unspent monies are returned to us by the end. Okay. So if we were to fall below that, that's not

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: the issue for us. Okay. That's good to know.

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: And that is that is the presentation for the summary.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Any other questions for Department of Corrections?

[Virginia “Ginny” Lyons (Member)]: I have questions that are not money related. I might email them.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: You can do a tour of the AR. Where I do have consist constituents, which lots of nice shootings. I'm concerned about the women's prison. Although I talk to a of people that have been against a new women's prison and tell them they visit the women's prison, and then they say, like, oh my god. We need a new prison. But where are we where are we on that timeline? Are

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: working closely with BGS to develop a RFP in order to go out and find a new property. There were state owned properties available to us in Essex, and both of those were ultimately determined. They were not properly zoned for the facility and could not get zoning variances from the town of Essex. There were a variety of reasons for that. We worked with, I believe, pretty hard. It was something that I did very early in my tenure to try to meet Essex's needs on that front, but we made strong cases that South Burlington considers us a pretty good neighbor when it comes to the Wittenden's facility there, but it was not to be. So we are now developing with BGS and RFP to determine if there are other properties available. We really want desperately to keep it in the vicinity of the current facility for a variety of reasons, Most prominently, two, one is that all of the services that are available to our female incarcerated are in that area, and we don't want to move far from those services. And two is that our employees who are used to working in that facility are trained differently when it comes to, or at least experienced differently when it comes to working with women as a population, that is where they commute. They either live nearby or that their commute could go to South Burlington and we would not want to disrupt that. For example, if an absolutely perfect property were suddenly That available itself in

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: would

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: not be a move that we would really want to contemplate. We have very specific needs for this. We've been looking at other facilities in other states that are very impressive to us, especially with regard to reentry. Developing a reentry capacity for women is going to be very important with regard to the design of this facility, and ultimately with regard to what we can start contemplating for men as well, and potentially for male facilities. If our purpose is to be corrective and correct people, a component of that is getting them ready for this success that means never coming back to a facility and getting out from under supervision without ever returning to supervision. That's success. And we certainly want to build a facility that's capable of fostering that success as much as possible.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: How many women are there now? 170.

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: Actually, morning it's, I think, little Are

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: you building a facility the same number or different than that?

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: We have 172 women as of this morning. Yes, we would be building for a slightly larger total population because we are, our general population beds are far below 117. The total facility nominally has about 176 beds, I believe, and as I said, we're at 172, but we were at 180 yesterday morning. However, The, population is much lower than that. And our general population, so it's not unlike the fact that the number of beds includes infirmary beds, it includes special housing beds, it includes segregation beds, which we do not want to use permanently. The notion of those is that a person goes into the infirmary temporarily and then leaves upon getting well. Maybe needs to be moved into some sort of segregation housing going to real behavior problems, but ultimately comes out from that. And so really our population should be no larger than our general population, and best practices in the industry suggest it should be about 80% of the general population total. We're well over that right now. And so our plans would be to build a facility that has a larger number of beds than that, and separates a number of those as, again, reentry beds in standalone but attached facility.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Okay, Sarah Lyons.

[Virginia “Ginny” Lyons (Member)]: So, you for all of that. I mean, it's very helpful to hear this over and over again. I've hearing it for ten or fifteen years, and it's really unfortunate that women are incarcerated in that facility. I know that some of the visiting for kids has been shut down because there's insufficient room and it's just not a place you would want anyone to be sent back into society. They don't have the opportunity to really regain themselves. But I have a short question and that is when the proposal came before Essex, did those folks from the town have an opportunity to visit the current facility? Do they understand what they said no to? I just can't believe they said no.

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: To my knowledge, no. It certainly didn't happen since I came aboard in August. I think they were afforded that opportunity. Certainly we would have welcomed them to come and take a look. I know that they discussed it with, they talked, for example, with other counterparts in South Burlington around the impact of having a facility like that in their town, but I don't believe they ever had an organized visit.

[Virginia “Ginny” Lyons (Member)]: That might be really helpful. They were offered.

[Kristen Halbert (Deputy Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: They were offered, but

[Virginia “Ginny” Lyons (Member)]: sometimes you can see your horse still in water, you know, but, know, thank you. The never ending struggle. We would

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: be more than willing to do that again with Planning Commission. I do think that both of the properties that were available to the state in Essex were not ultimately ideal properties. They each would have been, particularly the second one that we eventually settled on, which was off of River Road. Initially, the department felt that the property, the first property, which lay on the former right of way for extensions of February would have been reparable, but its elevation changes, its topography will really not conducive to anything other than a multi story facility, which we do not want. We really want something in towards a single story facility with a separate reentry facility. It affords more daylight. It affords more opportunity for people to move inside and outside of the building, obviously still within a secure double fence. But that's why we are leaning towards a one story facility. Neither of those plots of land would have been ideal for that, but the second plot of land could have been, could have worked for us. I'd be happy to reinvite them if that would make an opportunity for us, particularly depending on how the results of this RFP end up. But then again, there's an absolutely ideal private property that is available somewhere else in the Chittenden County area.

[Virginia “Ginny” Lyons (Member)]: So something has to happen quickly because the facility has really degraded so much.

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: Yes, and as you pointed out, ma'am, there are a number of things that we're not able to do currently from something as simple as our pickleball league that was organized by members of the community, because we are currently using a gymnasium for sleeping. And more, I think, you know, more pointedly, things like our Kids Apart program with LUN that is still running, but it can't run-in the same ways when it doesn't have the same spaces available to it. And so all of those things are negatively affected by both the capacity issues and the quality, excuse me, the condition of the building. But we, I need to be honest, we are probably going to have to address those sooner than we can even contemplate owning a piece of property, putting shovels in the ground, and designing and building a new facility. We are going to, particularly if the current trends for increases in population, detained and incarcerated, continue, we are going to have a much more striking problem with regards to overcapacity at the women's facility. And we're gonna have to do something long before we are gonna be able to actually put shovels in the government.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Well, I know we've set money aside. It was more than all the money. And we don't know what the total is gonna be. We just said we know it's gonna have at some point. So here's 3,000,000. I think we did at one point. Yes. We don't have a number what we think it's gonna be about.

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: We do not currently have a number for a total build out. I think that the monies that have been thus far appropriated are sufficient for any purchase of property that we if we were to identify one, the building process, no. There will

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Do you happen to know? Or, Maureen, do you know how much we have to go to, Or do you remember, Bruce? It's We're starting capital. 15. 15. Okay.

[Virginia “Ginny” Lyons (Member)]: I won't bring up reentry issues. They're all about their housing.

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: Yes. Yes. Okay.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Thank you. Thank Thank you. You so much. Thank you. I

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: can't bring that up.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Well, we're gonna turn on the people here. Is there any Oh, you know why I'm here. What was Me too.

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: He's he's definitely popular. I

[Sandy Hoffman (Interim Commissioner, Department for Children and Families)]: think we sent something. Right?

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: Yes. Yep.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Okay. Can are we unmuted?

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: We are unmuted.

[Sandy Hoffman (Interim Commissioner, Department for Children and Families)]: Online. So

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: welcome. You can introduce you can if you're introduce yourself and who you have.

[Sandy Hoffman (Interim Commissioner, Department for Children and Families)]: I'm Sandy Hoffman. I'm the interim commissioner of DCF, and I have Jenny Smaton.

[Lily Sodergren (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: I am Lily Sogrenner,

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: the director of the Office of Economic Opportunity, and apologies, I have to leave around 02:30, 02:45, so I'll squeeze out that that. Nelly Martin, Senior Advisor and Commissioner, DCF.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Thank you. For going on with the presentation you want to make about DCF, as a new interim commissioner, if you have anything you want to say about your new role there, how you're seeing things, but you can also just launch it to your I'm

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: just going launch it. That's fine.

[Sandy Hoffman (Interim Commissioner, Department for Children and Families)]: VCF's mission is to foster the healthy development, safety, well-being, and self sufficiency of Vermonters. We provide benefits, services, and supports to some 200,000 Vermonters that includes children, youth, families, older Vermonters, and people with disabilities. Our budget is organized into 13 appropriations. They correspond to our DEP IDs or programs, including economic services, family services, child development, child support, economic opportunity, disability determination services. In addition to ESD staffing and operations, the admin appropriation contains the commissioner's office staffing and operations, the business office staffing and operating, and the EDS budget. The proposed PAA represents a point 8% increase over the state fiscal year twenty six budget as passed with adjustments based on caseload trends and system of care needs. It also addresses technical corrections, revenue adjustments,

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: and efforts to maximize federal funding or appropriate. So

[Sandy Hoffman (Interim Commissioner, Department for Children and Families)]: highlights under economic services is there's an adjustment to the ADS service level agreement, income verification system, caseload adjustments to AAVD, PNI, GA support services, and reach out, and you'll go through those

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: acronyms when we get there.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Where is your, what section appears in the page Section three sixteen. So we started

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: three sixteen, and then we go to 13 ones after that.

[Sandy Hoffman (Interim Commissioner, Department for Children and Families)]: Okay. So Megan's gonna go through each of the sections of the spreadsheets.

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: I'm just giving you the highlights.

[Sandy Hoffman (Interim Commissioner, Department for Children and Families)]: FSD transportation pressures, caseload adjustments, prices stabilization facility. OEO is expansion of investments for minors experiencing homelessness, annualization of permanent supportive housing, and then other revenue adjustments included net neutral investments. And then one time requests are general fund, 150,000 for the ADS child abuse hotline. So Megan's gonna walk you through now

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: the line by line. Yes, so I sent out a narrative spreadsheet document that you should have all received.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: That's right.

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: Yes. It's like colorful. Do you know do

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: you happen to know how that ends up with the worksheet that Richard Westman did before it looks like this?

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: The admin appropriation is b three sixteen. On my sheet, every time you move into a new appropriation, the colors change, so you can see that we're moving through. And then on the farthest left hand side is the section for each of the appropriations.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: It looks like you just provided even more detail than it was on the issue. Yeah.

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: It's mostly the last column, the Meredith portion, to help you align it. I gave you the other information. I'm gonna actually skip ahead though to the three twenty five, which is the OEO appropriation, because Lily has to go set with all your other committees. Yep. So I just wanna make sure that you have an opportunity to have questions for her while she's here. So in OEO, we have the first line is an up of $259,000. It's actually a net neutral transfer from grants and personal services. This is funding to support two limited service positions that are needed to support the ever growing grant portfolio that OWIO administers. These positions were funded with ARPAT in prior years, but that money is dependent, and so we are asking it to be back with bills. But those positions are funded with general fund that was a one time appropriation for the housing, and then the next one on there was the one that was funded with the ARPAT that is expiring.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Do you have people in positions in Ukraine? Believe we do

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: people in those positions. We have people in two of the three and are finalizing a hiring date. Then we have the next line is the shelter funding baseline impact of $2,000,000 OIO has been utilizing one time funding to stand up new shelters throughout the state, creating operating pressure, and additional HOP investments that are needed to maintain eight to two units expansion in the state fiscal year. So that's about $2,000,000.

[Philip Baruth (Member)]: And this is to expand?

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: It's to continue operation and expansion. It's a mixture of both.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: So

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: that's oh, we have a special if no one has any questions, I can come click that up to the top and we can work through. Oh, weatherization. Everything organization. You know how it's not? Yeah. Weatherization. So

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Unless you wanna tell us. We all need to talk about one organization.

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: We do too. Anything you want. So jumping back to the beginning, b three sixteen and adding an appropriation, the pink section of the sheet. We have the first line is a net neutral move. You'll see the opposite in FSD. But basically, we are trying to align our TANF revenue with places where we need to spend federal revenue and then swapping it with general funds in places where we can maximize our maintenance buffer, which allows us to be able to buy down our work participation requirements and meet our maintenance requirements for the TANF board. So, it's all just about maximizing federal funding to the best of our ability. The next line on there is the Income Verification System. ESD has been using a federally approved earnings verification system or EVS to verify income for program eligibility. The feds are no longer providing that system free of charge. ESD is trying to secure licenses to allow them to utilize another vendor that provides a pay as you go model. So, under this model, quality control and fraud claims units would be charged each time they use it, and we're estimating that would be about $50,000 annually.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: You know, is the name of the company not publicly? No, do you have a scientific

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: fact? Yes. We continued the procurement process before we can share anything there, but I'll get back to you if it was finalized.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Or do you know did you talk to other agencies in the state that you do this?

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: I believe we are attempting to We are planning on connecting with DIVA as well. There have been preliminary discussions with DIVA. And the last line in admin is the ADS service level agreement, or SLA. This is a net neutral transfer from AHS. It's for DCS portion of the increased DDS SLA cost for state fiscal year '26.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: I I guess we have the ADS, because I thought

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: we got rid of this. So it's appropriate to the central office.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: That's the same thing. Yeah. We're just moving move more like a it's a transmission. Or is it a reversion in a rear column? Make the transfer.

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: Yeah. Well, they're they're reducing the amount in central office and appropriating it in the right departments.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Because ADS at one point is just doing it all at the central office. Think for the benefit of the department, but now it's in the new department.

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: Know if that's really for the history, would refer you to AHS and DBS. I think part of it is that the allocation is hard to know in advance, so this allows them to figure out after the fact what the allocation between the various departments should be when they're transferring it during the AA.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: So this will continue?

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: I'm not sure what because

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: last year it seemed like we were like, we're gonna stop and fix this so we don't have all these BAA adjustments that are gonna happen. That's fine.

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: Moving on to B317 FST, that's the yellow sections, you'll see the other half of the TANF revenue realignment, which is just the opposite. We're putting the federal funds in DEVASI and sending the general fund to admin. The next line on there is the NCSS, or Northwest Counseling and Support Services. Last year, we had money transferred from DMH to DCF, and it was put in the CDD by the state, and so we're just moving it to FSD where it belongs for the DS portion of that. And then we have transportation contract pressures for a million dollars. FSD's transportation contracts have continued to increase over time substantially, creating budget deficit problems for FSD. We worked on rightsizing it last year, but over the course of the legislative session, the costs continued to go up for other vendors that we haven't factored in. So this is, again, an attempt to rightsize our transportation budget to align with the contract values.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Can you give an example of what is being transported where? Do know that?

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: Yes. Anytime we're transporting children, it can be taking them to school, taking them to medical appointments. It can be a secure transport. I think deputy commissioner Erica can probably provide more details. Yep.

[Erica Radke (Deputy Commissioner, Family Services Division, DCF)]: For the record, I'm Erica Radke, deputy commissioner of the Family Services Division. Megan, you have it absolutely correct. It's generally transporting youth to school, medical appointments, counseling appointments, as well as those occasions where we may need to have a secure transports by sheriffs.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Are these children like homeless families under the care of the party?

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: In these

[Erica Radke (Deputy Commissioner, Family Services Division, DCF)]: children in our custody.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Erica Radke (Deputy Commissioner, Family Services Division, DCF)]: Thank you.

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: So the next line is our substitute care caseload and utilization. This, you'll see a down. We're seeing decreased caseloads in most of our types of substitute care. Each of the different categories is listed there. Those changes are based on what we budgeted, not based on last year's actual, so I just want to be clear that when I say we're seeing a decrease in case load, it might not be a decrease year over year in actual cases, but it's a decrease in what we thought we would have this year versus what we're actually seeing. So, if you have any questions on any of the specific ones, we can talk about that, but it's generally some changes in different directions depending how the state continues to go up on a cost per case every year, but we're seeing decreases in other areas.

[Virginia “Ginny” Lyons (Member)]: Hard to believe that we're seeing some of the caseload reductions that are here, but they're happening.

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: Yes, we're seeing a reduction in the number of children in our custody.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Yes,

[Erica Radke (Deputy Commissioner, Family Services Division, DCF)]: it's really surprising. It's good news, and I think part of the reason is we've been really working on adhering to our standard, our structured decision making models to really make sure we're only bringing in children safely that need to be in custody and care. That's part of it. And it is a we're going in the right direction.

[Virginia “Ginny” Lyons (Member)]: But the eligibility requirements haven't changed?

[John Murad (Interim Commissioner, Department of Corrections)]: No. No, they have not.

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: And then the last line is the subsidized adoptions. Kids are in utilization and that one, going the opposite direction, it's going up. This is because we're seeing increased caseloads and slightly increased costs per case on average. Each case is individually, and so it's not like a It's just an average cost per case, but we are seeing trends upwards there for kids and subsidized options.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: We just have

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: that capacity. So, moving on to CBD, we have two lines. The first two lines are just a technical correction. Last year, we had some funds transferred from DMH to DCF for our DS waiver population, and then again for our children's integrated services, and the amounts had just been swapped from the ups downs, and so this is just to correct that, just for clarity's sake. And then, the final line on there is the transfer to FSD for the developmental services, or DS, portion of the CD. That was CED last year. So that's CED. Moving on to with AABD and end of the age, blind and disabled, we have a decrease in our admin caseload. So, we have to pay the Fed a flat rate per payment that they administer on our behalf for ABD. As you can see in the next line, we see that our caseloads are trending downward to some extent in ABD. The amount that we have budgeted to pay up for those, in administration of those payments, is also too high, so we're realizing some savings there as well. Then the last one is the essential persons caseload. Again, we're seeing some savings that we can realize there as well.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Moving

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: on to general assistance, or GA. The support services caseload provides financial support for burials, physicians, dental, and abortions. We are seeing increased pressures for three of those, so various positions and abortions. Then dental is actually We have savings. That's why you see the down in the global commitment portions because that is a Medicaid funded benefit. Those together combine to an all.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Just out of curiosity, I don't know you know what's wrong. What is the cost for a burial of the state case?

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: Don't have that off the top of my head. I don't know if Deputy Commissioner Gray knows that.

[Virginia “Ginny” Lyons (Member)]: I also don't know off the top of head, but I can get it.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: And then the next line is the personal needs and incidentals or Q and I caseloads. And these we are seeing downward caseload trends in the past couple of years, so we have savings that we are realizing here as well. Those are benefits that provide funding for groceries in rheumatoid. So that's GA. Moving on to Reach Up. We have a consultant that we have worked with for many years who does our case load projections for us. We're able to use those case load projections and applying cost per case based on the last couple of years and trends we're seeing. We are able to realize some significant savings in the reach up budget. So, that's the $2,200,000 savings that you see there. And then, the line below it, it's just a net neutral revenue realignment.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: You're gonna keep that enough money, or they just need to fund it all to your ADS fund? Let's see.

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: It's not a one for one. Alright. So that's the huge shock. We already did OVO. So that brings us to the Cure Vise Vessel Treatment Facility, or V327. So we have one line item there. It's 1,900,000.0 for the Crisis Stabilization Program. We are currently operating Red Clover, which is a temporary facility that provides secure treatment. We also are entering into an agreement, or had entered into an agreement, for a crisis stabilization program in Wyndham called West River Haven. Those two combined are about $8,000,000 to operate annually. We have a budget of 3,700,000.0 in SRTF, so that's obviously not sufficient to cover those two needs. But we do have a lot of one time money that we have been carrying forward to use for facilities, and so we plan to utilize that this year. That still leaves us about $1,900,000 short of where we need to be, and so this is the funding that we need to be able to operate both the West River Crisis Stabilization, Red Clover, and then all the other smaller contracts that we have for secure treatment. And so that's everything in our base of preparations. We do have one one time appropriation. It's funding, maybe it's not fairly fully labeled, but it's funding that we had to pay to ADS for their support for the child abuse hotline expenses. There was necessary IT work to make our child abuse hotline compatible with the LUCE server requirements. That was necessary, and that's something that we had budgeted for.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: So, existing hotline has been around for a while.

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: It's

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: got ADS that you want to store your recordings, storing data.

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: I'm not exactly sure what the child abuse hotline data would be that they'd be storing on the server for the hotline, I just know we can get you more information on that. I'm not sure Anyone online knows that.

[Sandy Hoffman (Interim Commissioner, Department for Children and Families)]: You wanna know what that ADS what ADS is?

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: No. Is it because you're recording and you have, like, a lot of data? Are restoring? Are recording all these calls? What what is it ADS needs to be changing?

[Erica Radke (Deputy Commissioner, Family Services Division, DCF)]: It was more to make us functionally compatible with the system. Apparently, system was really old, and we wanted to make sure we were compatible with the other systems that they had been upgrading. So it's primarily making sure that the when our workers are answering calls that they're that are in the queue, that they're able to pick them up when they ones that are prioritized, making sure the headsets are working properly. It's really just to make sure the hotline is operating efficiently.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Okay.

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: So that's the budget for BAA at least. Yeah.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: I don't have anything to question. Anybody else? This is your opportunity. The first time We haven't been the time we haven't haven't been announced talking about the hotel program. I can't believe you mentioned. I don't wanna bring this up. Repeat. That's the trend.

[Virginia “Ginny” Lyons (Member)]: Please. Yeah. And really slept. Yeah. Great.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Great. Didn't we nothing that's not these days. No. I think the AMH also had a 150,000 miles for their crisis hotline. That's gonna be an ongoing trend as as.

[Virginia “Ginny” Lyons (Member)]: 988? They took the 98, the suicide line?

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Or They did. They did. They didn't. Then maybe it's They were trying to front load. I think we have ABS, and now it's coming back. So they're sitting by in there. He gives a coordination. ABS. That's whatever

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: they like.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Don't wanna bring

[Megan [last name unknown] (Budget/Finance Staff, Department for Children and Families)]: that up. Yeah. Yeah.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Okay. Thank you.

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: Thank you.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Thanks for your word. Good. People things that people don't wanna bring out that they're gonna

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: bring out. Oh, yeah.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: I I do have a procedural thing. How fast is the house shooting this? They're gonna wait for the governor's budget in the house and then they can elect them for the next week or day. We're not sure how ready It should to go, but they don't want to have them leave the house before they know what the revenue forecast will Yeah, we are above. Yeah, that's fine. I would assume it'd be maybe a week and a half, because then Propriations Committee gets rid of it that week at the Governor's address, then it's got to go, So we didn't follow him weekly with that. Something like that. So we might start taking testimony on but while we have to wait for the to address it. The government's address, we might start taking the budget testimony and budget adjustment testimony at the same time just to keep it clear.

[Marlene Petit (Executive Director of Finance, Department of Corrections)]: At the end of the last year, U. Office.

[Andrew Perchlik (Chair)]: Okay.