Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Good morning, it's Tuesday, April 14. Boy, looks awful nice out there. It's supposed to be raining all day, and we'll take this every day. We are going to continue our conversation on H739, an act related to prohibiting the use of the sale of the herbicide parrot plot. We're taking extensive testimony on this. I still think that we are still looking for testimony. I'm looking forward to what we hear today. That's customary in what we do at the start of the week. I just want to have the committee introduce themselves starting over here. Brian Collamore representing the Rutland District.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: And I'm Robert Plunkett representing the Bennington District. Steve Heffernan, Addison County District.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Joe Major, Windsor District. Senator Russ Ingalls, Essex District. I'd like to start off with some of the folks that are on our Zoom. See Eugenie Doyle. Are you ready Eugenie? Well welcome and welcome to Senator Agriculture and the floor is yours.

[Eugenie Doyle (Last Resort Farm, Moncton)]: Okay, so my name is Eugenie Doyle. Shall I just go ahead?

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yes, whenever you're ready.

[Eugenie Doyle (Last Resort Farm, Moncton)]: My name is Eugenie Doyle. I'm the co owner of Last Resort Farm in Moncton, Addison, Northeastern Addison County. And I am here because I had heard that or you had received some testimony that it was difficult or impossible to grow strawberries without paraquat. I have been growing strawberries since 1982. I went to in 1981, I studied small fruits at UVM with doctor Bertie Boyce, who is no longer with us, but is was a nationally recognized strawberry expert. That was his favorite small fruit. At that time, he did mention that it would be pretty much impossible or at least very difficult to grow strawberries without herbicides, which is what paraclot is. I very much wanted to use the minimum. So I never used Paraclat, but I, at that point, was not an organic grower. I did use Debronol and many other listed chemicals. However, when I became a mother and after captan, which was a fungicide, which I had been using, was outlawed because of being a carcinogen. I made a very big change to trying to prove doctor Boyce wrong and growing them, growing strawberries organically. We've been growing them ever since and since the early nineties, totally organically. We're pretty successful. I started out with two acres of strawberries, then went down to a third of an acre. When I transitioned to organic, we're back now up to about two to three acres. My son is in charge of that now, and he's a lot more ambitious than I ever was. But we it's probably second to our hay production in terms of being a monetarily successful crop. We're pretty well known for organic strawberries. And we, instead of using, well, never considered using paraquat, but instead of using any herbicides, we use a very organized cultivation and cover cropping program. Cover cropping is pretty much the key, I think, to this. Also crop rotation, And I can be more specific about that if you want. But it's not, I would say, it's not that it's easy to eliminate weeds without some both mechanical and hand weeding, but it very much is possible. And we grow grow grape berries. My I have a bumper sticker on the back of my car that says farmers are health care providers, and I very much believe that. I think basically, as any health care provider, the motto is do no harm. And I think that in terms of growing all of our crops, that's kind of our our guideline. Strawberries have a very bad reputation for being one of the most pests pesticide intensive crop. And it's it's something we are sort of battling in the public view. A lot of people don't want them because they have heard that they're head of the dirty dozen, but it's very possible. We had huge local support and invite you to come and taste them.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: This committee prides itself on supporting all farmers. First of all, I will correct you on one thing. We did not take testimony saying that it was impossible to grow strawberries without paraquark. I think that's an important distinction to make sure that that gets on the record, but we do support all farmers no matter how big or how small. Two acres of strawberries, does that afford you a very nice living?

[Eugenie Doyle (Last Resort Farm, Moncton)]: We have a two sixty five acre farm, diversified, organic, hay, and 25 acres of vegetables and berries. So we don't make our entire living on strawberries. No. We support ourselves on organic agriculture. And strawberries in that small amount is one of the most lucrative crops.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Nice. What else do you grow on?

[Eugenie Doyle (Last Resort Farm, Moncton)]: Well, hay is the biggest biggest crop, maple syrup. We grow a lot of tomatoes. We have seven hoop houses. We grow tomatoes, ginger, lot of salad crops. Right now, we have spinach, kale, mixed salad greens. We also grow for small fruit, blueberries, raspberries, gooseberries, currants. We do have some tree fruit, which we also don't use herbicides on, apples, pears, plums, and peaches. So highly highly diversified. We used to be dairy farmers and kind of learned from that experience that we needed to diversify in order to to remain in agriculture.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So you're educating us now, so I hope it's okay. So where are your markets at for what you're doing as far as in the farming that you're doing?

[Eugenie Doyle (Last Resort Farm, Moncton)]: Yeah. So we have a farm stand at our our place. We also supply City Market, both City Markets in Burlington, City Market Downtown, City Market South Bend, both Healthy Living stores, Healthy Living Berlin South Burlington and Williston, several restaurants, and three farmers markets.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Nice.

[Eugenie Doyle (Last Resort Farm, Moncton)]: We have a farm share program. It's a free choice CSA program.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Thank you, Mr. Chair. So you mentioned when your son came back, it's now two to two plus acres?

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: Two to Yes.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: How do you handle the pests? You hand weed all those acres?

[Eugenie Doyle (Last Resort Farm, Moncton)]: Okay. So as I mentioned, the keys to weed control in organic production, and this is not only in strawberries, the entire program is crop rotation, cover and then mechanical control. So no, we do not hand weed all of them. But strawberries are sort of a unique crop because the cover cropping, two plantings of buckwheat and then winter rye the year before planting can very well control perennial weeds. Then the trouble is, which I think is what paraquat is or I'm not sure. It might be a post emergent. I'm not sure exactly how that works. But then for the the annual weeds, we do cultivation. So once we plant the the plants, we have different kinds of cultivators that will go down the row and use tines or baskets to get pretty close to the plant. That works really well until the plants until the strawberries start to runner, which is putting out daughter plants from each plant. We don't want all of them to develop or the strawberry becomes a weed of itself. So we have machines that will slice off some of those runners. Then the final phase is some hand weeding. And we do it employs a lot of young people to go in there and hand weed. They learn a lot about plants. I would say at this point, and we've gotten really good at this, it's not onerous. I really enjoy it. You learn a lot about the soil and a lot about other problems or lack thereof in the crop being, you know, being close to it. But we have no worries about our workers working with the soil because it has not been treated with any toxic substance. So that's a plus.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Don't worry

[Eugenie Doyle (Last Resort Farm, Moncton)]: I don't worry about I never worried about my kids being in there, and they don't worry about my grandchildren being in there.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Is your farm right on 116?

[Eugenie Doyle (Last Resort Farm, Moncton)]: No. We're on Tyler Bridge Road.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: Okay, Addison.

[Eugenie Doyle (Last Resort Farm, Moncton)]: In Moncton. So between 116. Name Fitz. Name

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: Fitz, you're on back road on the side, last resort.

[Eugenie Doyle (Last Resort Farm, Moncton)]: Right.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: I drive with you quite often.

[Eugenie Doyle (Last Resort Farm, Moncton)]: Yeah. And we we did the Bristol Farmers Market for years. I knew many of your, relatives.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: Yep. Thank you. Questions?

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, I thank you Eugenie, and thank you for indulging in some education for us. We always like to learn and we don't have a lot of organic folks. We have a lot of organic farmers in the state, but we haven't had a lot in front of our committee. So thank you, thank you for that. It's very helpful for us. And you're more than welcome to listen in and be part of any discussion.

[Eugenie Doyle (Last Resort Farm, Moncton)]: Thank you very much.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I'd like to next go to Bill. Is it Sure?

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: Yeah, it would be Bill Sure.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Sure. Well, welcome, sir. The floor is yours.

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: Thank you. We are a user of Gramoxone, which is the trade name that we use. That's the version of Paraguay. We also grow our strawberries organically. We happen to use black plastic and that's working well. Cover cropping in the row. We have a three acre nursery that we hand hoe for weed control. That's a fruit tree nursery. Generally has around 20,000 plants in it. But the largest well, the use of Gramoxone for us is on our one and two year old newly established orchards. So we plant 10 acres of trees a year. Each acre has between one and two thousand trees per acre. So the trees are being planted about two feet apart. So the total acreage that Gramoxone is used on is 20 full acres. But of course, it's only a quarter of that acreage that's actually getting applied, the Gramoxone, in an herbicide strip. There's a We use a rye Excuse me. A fescue grass in the orchard lane where the tractors are traveling. So the Gramoxone is very helpful in suppressing any competition for these young trees and allowing us to minimize our labor inputs, which we clearly understand through hand hoeing the two acre or three acre rather nursery. And then we stop using Gramoxone in year three of the orchard. And that is the year that some fruit is allowed on the trees. And then obviously year three, four, and five, at least by year five, the trees are fully established. But in those first two years, it's very difficult to mechanically cultivate our clay soils. And we know that if there's an extended rain period, you know, there's no way you're gonna be doing any mechanical weed control there. If we use I'm not aware of other herbicides that can be used on one and two year old orchards without damage to the tree. And that investment is around 50,000 an acre. So at any time we have 20 young acres being brought along. And I'm happy to answer any questions. I have gone through a training. We've purchased a special device to ensure that the operator that is tank mixing the Gramoxone does not have any exposure. That applicator is always wearing a face mask. And the real problem, my understanding is with Gramoxone is it cannot be consumed through the mouth. And there, you know, it is a lethal project if it's consumed through the mouth. Obviously, that's something we would all applicators would would be insistent upon avoiding. But it's an extremely helpful tool for us in these young orchards that are being established. By the way, the benefit of these high density orchards where we're planting one in 2,000 trees per acre is as they mature, the canopies are quite small. As you can imagine, the branches can only grow a foot between trees, and that's what we fruit on. But we can minimize our spray inputs on the tree by 50%. And so we can maintain the same or increase our yield per acre while having our foliar spray inputs. And that's So long term, the benefit of these trellised high density orchards is there. One of the downsides is obviously weed control. And having a tool in the first one in two years for us is critical. I will say that we invested $15,000 in an attachment that goes on the front of our tractor that will It operates like a weed eater. Not not turning horizontally, but turning Whipping down toward the ground. I'm not sure how that will do on the young trees, meaning one to two year old trees, but that is a tool to help us minimize the use of Gramoxone. But I would be quite disturbed and discouraged if we lost access to Gramoxone in the form that we use it in. So happy to answer any questions.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: How much year are you using?

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: In terms of total quantity?

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yes.

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: I think Do you have access to the total In the last conversation with the one ag

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: 125 gallons I'm sorry.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Excuse me?

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: 125 gallons was purchased last year. Statewide. Statewide.

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: Statewide, yes. And I understand that we are a significant user relative to the full state. And I think that access, you do have access to that information. I don't have it on the tip of my tongue. Probably somewhere in range of 20 gallons. I don't know exactly. That But can be looked up and I think it's now a public record.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm sorry, could you restate the number of trees you have per acre?

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: Yes. We're planting between one and two thousand trees per acres. Trees are planted two feet two feet apart. But if I'm growing a two liter tree, I'm planting them four feet apart. But I'm still the leaders that come up are spaced every two feet. So it's the branches only grow a foot and little darts of branches. If a branch gets as large as my thumb, it gets cut off because it's it would create too large a root system and a large root system would create too large a trunk and we would lose control of that block. But these are it's you're welcome to come out and tour. It's it's done in Europe and it's done on the West Coast, but there aren't many examples, if any, in Vermont of this progressive planting style.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Are you using these trees for yourself? Or are you selling selling the trees on the market?

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: We do have a spring fruit tree sale that's going on right now for another week or so. Online sale, people come to the farm to pick up. And we have a state of Vermont fruit nursery license that we maintain and pay for annually. But that's a nice component of our business where we buy the rootstock and do our own grafting. It's nice to, folks get excited when they come out of winter and can purchase different types of fruit from apples to plums to peaches to pears from our own nursery inventory. But we're fairly self sufficient in terms of supplying our own trees for our own plantings of 10 acres a year.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: How big is your orchard, Bill?

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: I manage three eighty acres of orchard. That may be the largest in the state. Two fifty of that is in our ownership and the balance is leased.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yep.

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: By the way, the wholesale apple business is a fairly brutal business. We don't see many surviving orchards. The Sharam area was a mecca for fruit growing. But we have, we've succumbed for various pressures. And I feel like this conversation might be one of those. Certainly as a certified ecological grower, there's an IPM Institute in Minnesota that certifies us as an eco grower. We participate in a program called the, sponsored by Red Tomato, which is a marketing group out of Boston. And I don't sell fruit to them, but they provide us access to the certifying program. And ever since we started growing fruit in 1998, I've tried to be as sustainable as I can. And certainly the food co ops in the state of Vermont have been hugely supportive of our position where it's extremely difficult to be fully certified organic with our fruit. But we want to be far from a traditional conventional grower. And so there's been a nice niche there and food co ops have been very supportive and customers frequenting those co ops as well as supermarkets have really been supportive of our local supply chain.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: How many certified applicators do you have, Bill?

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: That's a good question. I have three men in an exam right now in Rutland, and four on staff currently that would apply. It's actually a bit of a challenge. There was a former employee of the Agency of Ag named Dominique who would come to the farm and actually help tutor our young or up and coming staff. These two of my applicators, I'm one of them. And I have another man from South Africa. But the balance of the crew is part of our seasonal workforce from Jamaica. And Dominique would come and help them train for the exam and pass the exam. And we just did take a course last week down in Rutland. But none of the three that took the test passed the exam. They needed a seventy five percent, and I think they were in the 57% range. Despite going through four weeks of training that was here on with my head of HR going through the whole two fifty page manual. So it's a little bit challenging right now because I don't know how I will with four applicators that we do have licensed, cover the acreage we need to this coming week. If we have a challenge with their second exam that's being taken now. That is a bit of a challenge and it was a good question to ask because the exam taking is for a commercial license. Many of the fundamentals of spraying can be understood and taught in house. And they're not applying a 100 different products on different crops. So we make a recipe up. We have mapping available for all of our staff. And the people that are certified know our orchards well and have worked with us for many years before they have that privilege of that extra responsibility. So it would be at the moment, we're a bit challenged by the process, but obviously needing to be compliant.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Can you give the committee kind of a mental picture? You mentioned that you have a tractor and this thing that's on the front of it, much like a weed whacker, but it spins in the other direction. We heard testimony from other folks that run orchards about a wand that extends out from the tank. But it was from what I was trying to imagine, handheld and they were walking along and applying it. This sounds they're driving a tractor. Are they still wrong? Talking about two different applications. You're talking about a weed. Oh. I think you're talking about one of the that you're talking about with the rotating cutting blade is not for applying chemicals. That correct, Bill?

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: Yes. The tool we just purchased is made by a Norwegian company, Netherlands actually. R I n I e r I, Riniri. And it is a mechanical weed eater, but we will We have diesel powered tractors, so I would love to move We have solar panels that power 50% of our total power usage annually, primarily to cool the fruit. But I would like to be running this Ranieri weed eater with an electric tractor, but I will be burning a huge amount of diesel fuel trying to minimize our herbicide usage. Like Eugene Doyle, there is planting techniques that we can use to minimize the weed and grass pressure. So we apply a significant amount of bark mulch on our new plantings to reduce the amount of weed, basically to smother out the weeds. But as we all know, there's things like bindweed that can have a 16 foot taproot and have seeds that can can last for, I think, thirty years underground and germinate all of a sudden. So if you look up morning glory or bindweed, that's a plant you're not going to keep out through some cover cropping, you know, two rotations of buckwheat and rye as Eugene mentioned. So some farms don't have that bindweed, but if you do have it and it spreads through mowers or this weed eater for instance, the bark mulch is not adequate. It's lovely, right? It's holding soil moisture. It's building organic matter and it's suppressing weeds. But you don't snap your fingers and have 20 acres of new orchard weed free. And it is critical for us to have tools through a long growing season on the soils we have, which are not suitable for cultivation when wet.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. Thank you. And I misunderstood. You were talking about two different functions and I somehow I got left off in the front one.

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: Yeah. To to clarify there, the person that was walking around with a wand probably had a backpack on with a, you know, a wand that was applying some form of herbicide. In our case, we have a tractor with a front mounted boom and two nozzles and the tank is in the back and under very low pressure and two little nozzles. The chemical, in this case, Gramoxone is introduced in water and is applied through these nozzles as we drive down the row on either side of the tractor.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay, thank you. Okay. Bill, we pretty much asked this question of everyone who is currently using paraquat. If it were to be rolled back, what would you do?

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: Well, I don't know the answer to that. I'm already considering significantly downsizing the farm because we're not profitable. I have, to my knowledge, the ultimate customers I could ever ask for, whether it's two farm markets, pick your own and retail operation here at both Champlain and Douglas. And from a wholesale delivery route, we have three trucks on the road, four to five days a week, year round, going to food co ops and Hannaford Supermarket and Shaw's and University of Vermont, other hospitals. I couldn't ask for a more supportive clientele. But we are not You know, I don't wanna fail as an old orchard that's over applying spray material to older trees and asking men to climb up on 20 foot, 30 foot ladders anymore. That's that's not that's not progressive agriculture. And with one form of, you know, minimizing labor through efficiencies, including these trellis orchards, that I feel is what is can help us differentiate ourselves or remain in business, I should say, as all So many of our competitors have shuttered their doors or just gone to downsizing to the point where they have 10 acres for pick your own at most. When I think of Vermont, think of dairy and I think of maple and I think of of apples. So I wouldn't be surprised if if you don't think of apples too frequently in the next fifty years because it's not that we can't grow fruit well here, but there's a lot of pressure and there's not a lot of support.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Bill, paint a picture for us. I'm sure that you like like all farmers that are fraternity of depending on what you're doing. You've you've started to paint that picture for us as far as for apple growers. You must have conversations with other apple growers. This is probably got a little angst going on. What is the conversation going on amongst your group of apple growers about the idea of banning paraquat or a chemical anyway, Paraquat or another name that does the same thing.

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: You know, I didn't understand the question. Was listening intently but what was the actual question?

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: The question is, is this causing angst amongst apple growers with the thought process of banning paraguay? Well,

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: would be good to, Terry Bradshaw would be a good one to ask. They're asking growers to go into these high density plantings, But if you're doing one acre a year or two acres a year, you know, that's a challenge. And I don't know how successful those growers at that scale will be. But yes, you could say that it's an easy check off the list, let's ban this because let's face it, 125 gallons over the course of a full year through the whole state is not significant usage. I understand that that could be an easy win. It's just, I value the fact that you're listening to my concern and I don't have a solution. I know the weed eater is not going to By the way, Gramoxone doesn't kill the plant. It just suppresses it for another three weeks or a month. And then you do have to reapply it. It's not like it's a solution for complete weed eradication. And the weed eater, as you know, you cut grass and does it grow better? It grows better. So the weed eater will facilitate this regrowth. When that, if it's grass and the roots get established, you're in a battle that is probably one you don't want to continue on.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So you mentioned you had a couple 100, maybe two twenty five acres, and then you lease a portion of that. What does the lessee grow on that?

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: Yes, we grow 300, we're managing three eighty acres of orchard. Around two fifty of that we own. The orchards that we lease are primarily older orchards. We use a mower that bumps off of each tree. It's a 13 foot wide mower. It's made in Holland and they don't make the mower anymore. The little bump wheel that bumps off the tree is has a brutal life. And I got a quote this morning. It's $4,700 to replace that bump wheel. And they told me to be grateful that they'll even supply it. So you can see that there aren't many orchards continuing these older plantings. They may be romantic and fun to look at. But every year over in New York I shouldn't say every year. But if you look at the entire state of New York, the remaining orchards that have these big trees, people do die falling out of those trees off of ladder with 40 pounds of fruit on them. And if not die, we've had many injuries. It's slippery, right? You're picking in different conditions. And if you step on fruit, it's slippery. So these larger orchards, even the equipment like that mower I just referenced, are no longer being made. And by the way, people that still have those big trees are primarily using herbicide underneath the trees and just using a brush hog to go down the middle. That's one of the few plantings where we feel like we can eliminate herbicide usage because we have this mower. But as we discussed, it's getting harder to maintain that actual mower. I don't know if I answered the question well. I got on a bit of a tangent, I don't know.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I think you've done a very good job. I agree. Any more questions for Bill? Bill, thank you very much. You're more than welcome to stay, listen and comment as you go. Just if you, either if Eugene is still with us, if you guys want to comment, just let us know. We appreciate you coming in very much. Very valuable testimony to us.

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: Thank you. We have a 1,600 tap organic sugar bush and so the USDA inspector and NOFA are here now and I'm going to go join that inspection. Maybe that's evidence like our strawberries that when we can do things organically, we are. And I would be grateful if you can consider the fruit industry here and the desire to use Gramoxone on a limited basis on these one and two year old trees, potentially have access to it in the nursery, although we're not even using it there right now.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yep. Thank you. Thank you. We appreciate you very much. Appreciate your work. Yeah, thank you, and we appreciate you. We're gonna move on now to Scott Faber, Senior Vice President, Environmental Working Group, Georgetown University. Welcome, Lord yours, sir. I hope I pronounced your name right.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Yeah, thank you. No, thank you. Great, thank you for

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: making time for me. Really

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: appreciate it. Well, it's an honor to be here. My name again is Scott Faber. I've worked for the Environmental Working Group. I also am an adjunct law professor at Georgetown's Law School where I've taught farm and food law for many years, including pesticide law. Let me start by saying I understand that farmers need crop protection tools. I've had many conversations with farmers like Mr. Shore. I take my students to a large, to many large conventional farms so they can see how important crop protection tools are to farmers. And let me also say our pesticide laws are really designed to balance the needs of farmers to control weeds and pests with the need to protect people and the environment. In this particular case, I think the evidence will show that the harms that are caused by this particular herbicide outweigh the benefits to farmers, especially when you consider two factors. One is that there are many other chemical herbicides available to farmers, and I'm happy to provide a list of those chemicals.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, I guess we would really love a list because we are we are finding out that there's no chemical available. Well, I'm I'm really glad back on your claim as far as to the risks that outweigh because we have seen no risks so far. We've seen 125 gallons that are hand sprayed within orchards that are valuable to us, and we see the large drifts as far as where it is. I guess probably we're having the biggest problem. When we have 500,000 gallons worth of usage in California, and they have yet to ban this terrible product, which I'm not saying that lightly. I do think it's a very dangerous chemical. I really, really do. But we see no efforts anywhere else where they're using a lot more chemical than what we're using of 125 gallons. You need to help us with that.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: And I will try, I appreciate that, and I have watched some of your previous hearings, so I appreciate those questions, Mr. Chairman. Gives me a lot of direction. Let me start by talking about the risks. So first of all, I'll just say I think you're all aware of the studies, the animal studies, the cellular studies, the human studies, the mechanistic studies that show what happens when paraquat enters the brain, but I don't think I've heard testimony about that, a little bit from Doctor. Boyd, and we know from these animal studies, cellular studies, mechanistic studies, these epidemiological or human studies, we know three things. One is that when paraquat enters the brain, it enters part of the brain called a substantia nigra. It takes a long time for the brain tissue to clear paraquat. Two, we also know that once paraquat is in the brain, it sets off a chemical chain reaction which causes something called oxidative stress, which results in cell death and ultimately destroys the neurons, in this case, the dopaminergic neurons that impact motor control and our behavior, and if any of you, I hope not have been touched by paraquat, you know what the classic symptoms of, oh, sorry, Parkinson's, you know what the classic symptoms of Parkinson's disease are. So we know that it stays in the brain, gets this portion of the brain that controls motor control. We know it takes a long time to clear from the brain. We know that it causes oxidative stress that kills the neurons in the brain, the dopamine producing neurons in the brain that cause the hallmark symptoms of Parkinson's disease. Here's the other thing we also know, and I'll just say quickly, what's interesting, we're all learning a lot about paraquat, what's interesting is that the same chemical chain reaction that occurs into our brains, this oxidative stress that kills the cells, is the same chemical chain reaction that paraquat causes in plants. So the paraquat takes electrons from the mitochondria and starts this chemical chain reaction, which ultimately reduces the production of chlorophyll cells, which ultimately damages the plant. So it's as if somebody were setting a match to the brain or to the plant to cause the destruction of these cells resulting in cell death. So there's, again, I'll send all the studies, happy to share more, but that's what we know about the harm that paraguay caught Most literally Vermont on. Is that Well, let me come to that. So the other Yeah. I know if you're eating a lot of

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Because this is in California. This is Vermont. I'm gonna 125

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: gallons. Absolutely. So let me talk a little bit about that, because I know you've talked a lot about Drift, and you've learned that we apply Paraquat with a wand, with a backpack sprayer or off a tractor of some kind, and if any of you, I've got a backpack sprayer, some of you may have backpack sprayers with a wand, You know when the pesticide comes out of the end of the wand, it comes out as a liquid, and if it's a windy day, the wind may take those pesticide particles and it may drift with the wind. That is not what happens with paraquat. What happens with Paraquat is the Paraquat will volatilize and move up into the air and travel in the air as a vapor. So if you remember nothing else from this, from my testimony, it's that the risk posed by paraquat is not the risk posed by drugs. And I know there's been some confusion about that. Paraquat is different because it, because it, of the vapor pressure of paraquark causing it to volatilize into the air, it turns into a vapor, and then travels in the air. And what's new, here's what we've known until last October. Until last October, we knew that paraquark gets into your brain, we know it kills cells, we know that people who live near fields where paraquark has been sprayed are more likely to get Parkinson's disease. All of that is well established. Last October, we learned something new. We learned, and Steve Dwimmel, Dwimmel? Dwimmel, thank you. Yeah, did a terrific job of explaining this. We learned that Syngenta told the EPA that for decades they had been miscalculating this vapor pressure question, and what that meant was they were underestimating by a factor of 4,000 the potential for paraquat to volatilize and move into the air as an invisible vapor. So we can all see drift. You can all imagine drifts. Actually got this really crude that I brought a picture because I know it's hard to visualize this. To help you visualize the difference between drift and vapor. So we learned, and this is and and I'm I guarantee you that none of the farmers who use Paraquad that you've heard from know about this October study. We learned we all the people who who teach farm law and teach pesticide law and others who are in the business of regulating pesticides all learned that pest that paraquark has a higher vapor pressure, is more likely to volatilize in terms

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: of of that. We hear that we hear this low pressure. That's what it's doing, and it's it's larger droplets. I was an applicator too. I I've I've done. You you know? I've I've done I've done I've done hand spraying. I've done all the back of a skinner with a pressurized tank, and I've done 50 foot booms, and now they have 100 foot brooms. So I've I've done it. So you know.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: So that that you're the right person to be running this hearing. That's terrific. So so you know that there's a big difference between drip and vapor. What you may not know, and what we all learned in October, is that when EPA recalculated with this new measure of vapor pressure how far paraquat could travel as a vapor, they modeled that it could travel at least concentrations of concern, not just paraquat, paraquat concentrations of concern, their language now, could travel at least 2.7 miles from where it had been applied

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: We didn't point hear that system.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Okay, okay, you have heard that.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: Mike, my question with you is that it can travel that far, and from what I understand, its volatility and its persistence doesn't last that long. That's why it's another good, it's got a, twenty four actual forty eight hours to stay off where it's been treated. That's probably double the So shelf when it gets into the vapor form, how active is that vapor form, for how long have they, should they so study?

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Well the FDA told us, and I'm sure you have this October paper, but I'm happy to send it to you, well, is that, as you know, the restricted period sounds like it's about forty eight hours before you can go back into the field. But what EPA said is that it can stay on the plant and continue to volatilize into a vapor for hours or days. They did not say how many days, but I can go back to the authors of the paper and ask, for how many days can this, again, visible paper, unlike DRIPT, continue to travel off the field and into nearby neighborhoods and other farms? And what that chart that Steve showed you, I I know you all have it in your mind, especially you, because you think about vapor pressure for a living, showed you was that the the older study assumed that paraplexa stayed put, that had very, very low vapor pressure. What the chart showed us is that the 2020, the new study showed us, the Sugenza study showed us, is that the vapor pressure for paraquat was actually close to the vapor pressure for dicamba. So as someone who's a pesticide applicator, Mr. Chairman, you know, the most notorious pesticide for drift and volatility is dicamba. So even I hadn't seen that chart. I was that, like, set off alarm bells for me that the vapor pressure, the actual vapor pressure for paraquan is so much higher that it's more akin to dicamba, which often travels far off the field, which, of course, is bad for the people who might live nearby. It's also bad for the farmers who might live nearby. Plants might be in For those of us that don't apply this stuff, what is dicamba? Oh, dicamba is another broadleaf herbicide that is now being reformulated, as you know, to address the risk that it might drift or travel off-site and harm the, especially the crops of a farmer's neighbor. So, so that's, so I think when, given the fact that we already know from the human studies, not the animal studies, the human studies, that people who live near these fields, not just people who work in these fields, but people who live near these fields, are twice as likely to develop Parkinson's disease.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We've heard, contradicting as far as on that, we've heard both sides

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Well, of that, let me talk about that because I wanna and I also wanna come back to California. So there there you're right that there are two papers to be looking at. One is the Paul paper by professor Paul and her co authors that came out in 2024. The other is by Mr. Weed. Sir, Mr. Douglas Weed. Douglas Weed. Yeah. Weed paper. Correct. And so Yes. And so Let me iron that out. Yeah. Let me know. Exactly. His parents knew exactly what he was going to do the day he was born. Really important question, thank you. So the paper that Professor Paul wrote was independently funded. It's by all university academics, peer reviewed, published in a peer reviewed journal, and based on data that was collected from individuals who live nearby. The paper that, so the point thing to know about the other paper is the author was funded by industry, has frequently appeared as a witness on behalf of industry. That paper was published in an industry funded journal, and this particular author was sanctioned by a judge for providing false testimony, and I will happily give sent a the order from that judge. So I think when you're weighing so I respect you for digging into the weeds of this. When you weigh the trustworthiness of these two papers, the whole paper, independently funded, university academics, peer reviewed publication, and the other paper, it's important to take a hard look at who the author is. Let me talk for a minute just about California, because this is, because I know that's on your mind. Me just say Go everywhere.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I mean, California, anywhere. It doesn't matter. I think everywhere.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Anywhere. So Vermont is not alone in wrestling with this question. So California is actively considering whether to ban Paraguay. Many other states, I will miss some, but many other states with big apple production are also considering whether to ban Paraguay, Washington state, obviously, New York, Pennsylvania. I'm gonna miss a bunch of them. West Virginia, Virginia, Ohio, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, is actually actively considering this week, some similar legislation. So Verhana's not alone in trying to wrestle with these questions, and they're wrestling with these questions for two reasons. One is this bombshell paper telling us that Parafrost is more likely to volatilize, to move into the air, to travel into our neighborhoods, and the fact that EPA, despite receiving this paper and doing this modeling, has decided to simply kick the can down the road for what at a minimum would be four to five years to continue to think about whether or not this chemical should continue to be used. I think one of the problems, and I'm a law professor who teaches pesticide law, maybe a little too enthusiastic, right? But one of the things that is important to keep in mind is that when EPA asks, should we phase out pesticide? They're not necessarily taking into consideration the long list of alternative herbicides that farmers have at their disposal, and they're not asking whether or not this this they're not simply asking whether or not the risks are too great. They are balancing the need for the herbicide with the need of their neighbors and the environment, and they are doing that analysis on a pesticide by pesticide basis. When you step back and ask, should we continue to allow farmers to use this particular herbicide? It's not a question of whether or not farmers will have paraquat or have to resort to mechanical or cultural changes. Right? There is a long list of herbicides that farmers have available to them to manage this. And we know that farmers can grow apples and strawberries in particular without parapot because farmers in other countries have showed us they care. So you've heard probably more times than

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: you want, more than 70 countries banned paraquant. Yeah. But we also we've also heard that the reason why it's not banned here is because we have the most stringent, requirements as far as applications of chemicals. As you've just heard, in the old state of Vermont with a fellow here that's trying to get people licensed, four people failed the test. I would say that we are doing a pretty good job to make sure that the application process goes as designed, very stringent. So I'm really glad you mentioned it, because as you've seen, I think

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Steve showed you an image of what wear when you're spraying a restricted use pesticide. You're wearing anti VAC suit, you have a respirator, you have gloves, you have boots. So when I use my Vaxxrayer to handle my bug wart, hope you never have to deal with bug wart, I'm suited up. My neighbor is not wearing any protective gear. My neighbor's not wearing a Tyvek suit or a respirator or gloves or boots or even has any notice, has any notification that I'm spraying a herbicide that has been linked to Parkinson's disease, and until October, that didn't matter, Right? Until October, if I was suited up and spraying Paraquat with my wand, I I assumed, as I'm sure mister Shore now assumes, that it just stays put. I don't I can't I don't see drift because of the way bromoxone is formulated. What no one can see is this question of vapor. And I I know I I've gotta keep coming back to this because to me, it's it's if you agree as I do, if you see that this pesticide can then volatilize, move into the areas of vapor, and then move into our neighborhoods, and then you look at what animal studies tell us about what happens when this particular herbicide enters our brains, you will begin to think, okay, what are the other chemical herbicides that our apple growers have available to them? Canadian apple growers also cannot use pear plotting. So they grow 400,000 metric tons of apples in Canada, mostly in Quebec and Ontario.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: So, what do they use Paraquat for? Because they do sell it up there

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: and use it. It is it is not registered for use in Canada. So, Canadian apple growers are not using Paraquat.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: So But fruit growers, strawberries and

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Paraquat is not registered for any use in Canada. They are one of the set they are they have not, by statute, banned its use, but there are no uses of paraquat that are registered in Canada, full stop. There are other countries that also have many apple growers. I think one of you asked about Poland

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Mhmm. As a Yeah. Yeah. Also has banned

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: use of paraquat. So, again, I'll send the list. There's a No. I'm sorry.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I'm confused. Said they abandoned, but it's not a statute? So for a pesticide, we

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: have a pesticide applicator here, can call me. Farmer. Farmer. Well, what's an applicator? So so in most, in in order to use a pesticide in most countries, including The US, Canada, European country, Brazil, China, you have to formally go through a registration process. You have to register the pesticide. That means you have to provide lots of data about the toxicity, about how you plan to use it, and then they The US and Canada will produce a label through instructions that you have to follow or you're breaking the law. There are no uses of paraquat in Canada that are currently registered. That doesn't mean that they some Syngenta's going out of business. Willow Wood couldn't go to Canada and say, we wanna register a paraquat based pesticide. Sorry. Said

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: No. No. I didn't I went too far into the You're fine.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: So I just I just wanted to hit on that last point one more time is that every there are many, many other countries, Brazil, China, apple producing countries that do not use paraquat. 80% of the world's apples are made in countries, are grown in countries where paraquat cannot be used. 80%. Many of these countries, and, mister Shore mentioned this, are are their orchards are moving to high density farms as well.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, they just go out of business, right? And we've heard mister Shore say, I'm gonna just downsize my ability to

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: produce apples. Well, I think look. I really hope mister Shore's not going out of business. We should and as a

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: little I thought he was a very credible witness. Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: I think there are other apple growers in the state that I'm sure, and I'm happy to try to find. I don't believe

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I wish you would.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: I would love to live here.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I I wish you would. There's very few. We've been we've been beating the bushes here. No pun intended. We're gonna beat the orchards to find people who are really in favor of Benning Paraquat. We're not getting there. I think you're out, you're one of the first ones.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Okay. Well, I know Professor Mortensen, New Hampshire, Vermont. My family my wife's family is from Benning, so I know the difference. We'd love to come back and supplement his testimony, specifically around this question of alternatives, because I I'm a I'm a law professor. He's a expert weed scientist. He's the right person to come in and walk you through all the other chemical herbicides that are available for orchard farmers to as an alternative to bromoxone or paraquat. And and the other thing I just wanted to touch on, I know we've heard a lot about strawberries as well. So and, of course, as you probably most of your strawberries are grown in California. Of the 20,000 pounds of pesticides that were sprayed on strawberries in California in 2023, only 30 pounds were parabola. So most straw the vast majority of strawberry growers, these are all at scale commercial strawberry growers by and large, are growing strawberries, again, without parabola. They're using other chemical herbicides, they're not using an herbicide that we now know can volatilize much more than we previously understood because of this new study on vapor pressure and can travel into our neighborhoods. The last thing I just wanted to say, and I wanna make sure I got all your questions, mister chairman, was taking notes, was this chemical isn't just banned in China. It isn't just made in China, it is made by the Chinese state government. So let me say that again. So most of the companies, including Sungenta, which works its leading to market, that make paraquat are not just not just this chemical that's not just made in China, it is made by the state of China, the government of China, which has prohibited its own farmers from using it. And and like Brazil and European countries, they haven't just banned it because it's an acute toxin, and I know you've heard a lot about that. They have also banned it because of these risks to bystanders.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I think they banned it in a lot of these countries because they're using it to- For suicide. Yes. And it's just gonna keep on coming back to this, I think, for me and maybe a few of the committee members, which, you know, we are all wrestling with this and really trying to get get to something here. The the fact that we wanna be the first in Vermont to ban this at a 125 gallons, and we have tons of it being used elsewhere. Just doesn't settle very well. Yeah.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: I understand that.

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: And

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So what brings you to Vermont? You're very esteemed, very honored to have you in here. On a 125 gallon to come build the Van Paracua. What brings you here?

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Well, so I'll just first of all, the I've been watching your hearing, I've been helping legislators in other states. I teach pesticide law, and I work for the National Environmental Health Career, EWG. I felt that I had something to add to this conversation, because I've followed this closely, and I've also listened, worked with many farmers and understand that no farmer wants to take a tool out of the toolbox. I'm sure you've heard that from other witnesses. How important is to have tools in the toolbox? So one of the other things that I thought I could offer was that, which we only know if you followed the EPA registration process as closely as someone like I would, is that in the last fifteen years or so, I wrote it down because I wanted to share this with you, since 2015, in the last eleven years, 18 new herbicides have been added to the toolbox, and nine new herbicides are currently awaiting registration. So I get it, when I take my students to visit farmers, when I work with farmers, I've worked on six farm bills and many other pieces of state bills. I talk to farmers almost every day. I get it, nobody wants to take a tool out of the toolbox. The toolbox is full, and we're adding more tools to the toolbox all the time, and this isn't simply a question of whether we use Paraquad or resort to manual or culturable things. And so the other thing I just also wanted to say is I'm, you know, I know how hard it is to stay in agriculture. I I live in a part of rural Maryland where my neighbors are all farmers, and there are certainly, the costs that farmers facing are going up right now because of lots of things that are out of their control, like the cost of fertilizer and equipment and so on. But it's also the case that the cost of Parkinson's disease to a family can be really substantial. I think you heard from the Fox Foundation, twenty one thousand people currently in Vermont, they have Parkinson's disease. I asked them what the out of pocket costs for someone were, even if they had health insurance, to care for someone with Parkinson's disease. And the Fox Foundation shared back with me that it could be up to $60,000 a year. Did they ask how many live by orchards? Do we have a count of that many?

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: Because there's not a lot No, of

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: no. Or so in the In the age population in in our state. And I think if you wanted to go down that route, which I really don't want to, but if you want to, that's fine. If we were to look at all the age sicknesses that go on in Vermont because of our aging population, we are going to trend higher than most other states because of Here's our what we know, and the Fox

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Foundation is the right witness, so you might wanna ask them these questions. We know that twenty two percent of us have genetic predisposition to develop Parkinson's disease, that aging and environmental exposures are increasing the risk of Parkinson's disease for the rest of us. So, can you say with certainty that my grandfather had Parkinson's disease, got Parkinson's disease because he worked in a factory where trichlorocepamine was used, which is a notorious group causing Parkinson's disease, of course. But when it comes to these kinds of issues, we don't wait for certainty, we don't wait for proof of causation to protect public health. We didn't wait to ban DBT or to get lead out of gasoline or paint or to ban asbestos. We didn't have to understand the mechanism of action to understand how it is best described or causes mesothelioma before we decided to end the use of asbestos.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: I believe the difference here is just like we said, we're using a small amount on a very controlled circuit, and this is just one tool toolbox, and who's to say the next chemical they come up with that something isn't discovered with that, which they will because everything they they're meant to kill stuff, so they're gonna affect humans, Is our concern, I've looked up, there was 11 other states that are pursuing that. Only Vermont, Hawaii, Vermont's the only one that's passed the bill so far. H160 that we're, you know, and in Hawaii, it hasn't, and then in 2024, they got shut down in California, and it's probably because of how big the industry is and it's used- It's

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: used quite a bit in California.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, so we understand that. Understand where you come from. Did you come up here on your own accord or did some outfit No, a paid

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: I worked for the Environmental Working Group or National I've Environmental Health been following this issue in many states and

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: And our hardest spot is what we use it so little. Right.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So it's like Well, we take responsibly and controlled.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Can just say one more thing? Absolutely. Absolutely. We appreciate you. No, no, no. This is a great conversation. I've only gotten a chance to testify here once before, and

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I didn't know so.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: No, no, it went great. In fact, I've had the honor of testifying before Congress probably 20 times, and it's, you know, I wish that Congress took as much time to think about and turn over these questions as you all are, so I'm not, honestly, not saying that. I've heard that from something else, too. But I think one of the things that when I listened to the earlier testimony, Mr. Chairman, that really struck me is farmers and applicators are incredibly well trained, and they are following them because the consequences to their families, but also to their businesses can be really significant. So I have no doubt that farmers are following the label, that they are properly equipped, and that they are doing everything they possibly can to follow the rules and protect themselves and their families. I I am until to until today, and maybe unless somebody caught this from Steve's testimony, I bet most farmers and applicators and state of the art do not know about this new study showing the risk of volatility.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: And I truly understand that part, but it's like, definitely how distance breakdown, you're an

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: apple orchard, you go down the storm, the

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: closest house might be two miles away. Sure. At that two mile mark, you got tree, you got so much stuff that the tree No, has got a

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: great yeah, it's a great question. I, this is not science, but I was looking at where some of these orchards are, and we have access at EWG to the Crop Lantana Layer so I can see where all the crops are burned, and I drew a circle of two miles, and I, you can, I counted five schools, a bunch of other, you know, places where people will tend to congregate outdoors, ballparks, etcetera, that are within two miles, not 2.7 miles, two miles of orchards where paraquat may have been sprayed? We know, we know that we know that concentrations of concern can travel at least 2.7 miles. So, you know, look, it's trade off. If I thought, and you asked this question, Mr. Chairman, during one of the hearings where, you asked Steve of this question, is there a scenario where there could be an emergency where Paraquat could be the only school in the toolbox? And he was struggling to come up with an example. And if you told me that you couldn't grow apples in the state of Vermont without paraquan, I would say, well, you know, look, this is a really important industry. We can use other tools to try to limit the amount of, the amount of, pesticide might travel. We could notify people. There are ways but but that's not the case. There are many other chemical alternatives that can help orchard farmers deal with this competition issue. And we know that because farmers all over the orchard farmers all over the world are growing the same crops without this one particular herbicide. So to me, it's if if if the risk is between if the if the trade off is I'm an orchard farmer who has to switch from chemical A to chemical B, and one less person gets Parkinson's disease? That seems like a pretty simple trade off. I've been, but, yeah. So, one of the things

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: you keep hearing about is that it's it's used such a small amount is used in Vermont. I don't know that that's correct. I just know the number. And I'd asked this before, and I'm asking you, I don't know if you'll have any answer. Do we know, you know, how many how much per capita is used in Vermont compared to California? I had not heard of the 500,000 gallons,

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: so I'm not gonna think I about it, Jim Simone, and I struggle to

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: use that, but yeah. Have data as of 2019 from USGS of state by state use, and I'll send that to you. Correct. I'll get that back. That would be helpful, too. We're by major crop, like orchards, corn, silane. Oh, I got it. You're working too. Yeah, I've got a whole lot of stuff.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: The other question I had was, so we heard from a fairly large Orchard and I discharged in my town the other day, and I may be within two miles of this, and it sounded like they

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: might have started using parapoid in

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: the past couple of years, so

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: when should I check with my kids

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: to see if they have Parkinson's disease?

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Oh gosh, I'm not a doctor. Okay. I'm not getting

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: that I'll ask the, I'll ask that of

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: Ask your doctor.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Ask your doctor.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: But you did say that it stays there for a while, and it's something that we would not necessarily see right away.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: So what I'm sharing with you, what I've, I'll just share with you. Once it volatilizes and turns into a vapor or travels through the air, it can stay in that long for days. How long? I can't tell for sure.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: I guess the other question we have is, you've been talking about in Vermont, we have an aging population. I've learned that the average age is 43, which seems too young to be an aging population, but regardless

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Not based on this group.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: I assume there are certain risks for Parkinson's. Age is one of them.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Age is absolutely. Genetic predisposition for about twenty two percent of us. So then you introduce

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: paraquat into that equation, and that makes it more risky for our older population.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Yeah.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: So in Vermont, do we have an

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: older population with paraquat use? That's right. Is that much more risky? That's right. Okay. That's right. And we, and it goes back to your question,

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: Senator Heffernan. Seems like we should have the data as we deal with

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: the And I will do

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: some homework for you, but I think to your point, that we know, because we're actually, there's been, thanks to the Fox Foundation, a lot invested into understanding which of these chemicals get into the substantia nigra portion of the brain and cause the oxidative stress that results in cell death, and we know trichloroethylene is one of them, just banned a few years ago. We know, and I think Doctor. Boyd mentioned this, rhodanone is one of them, not used on food crops or farm crops, it's used for like managing weeds in ponds, things like that. So there is a limited number of chemicals that have this, we know have this impact from animal studies, cellular studies, mechanistic studies, enter the brain, stay in the brain, start this chemical chain reaction that results in cell death, and that ultimately leads to Parkinson's disease. So, again, you know, about a quarter of us might have the gene, one of us might have the gene, where we have a predisposition to developing Parkinson's disease. For the rest of us, it'll be the exposure that will likely contribute more aging or both. And again, I just, I wanna emphasize, I've worked with farmers for many, many years, more than three decades now. Farmers want alternatives to control weeds. Weeds, if if if any of you have ever had weeds, you know, weeds are outsmarting us in lots of ways and And affordable. And the same. But farmers, we've placed we we've phased out pesticides before, GET being the most famous, and farmers have found new tools. And I was thinking about our friend Walt at Sugar and Spice. Yeah. And so if you told Walt tomorrow that he could no longer use a particular additive to make waffles, he would have a big pallet of other additives that he could use to make waffles. And farmers are no different, right? They know that there's a long list of other chemical herbicides that they have at their discretion, and they also know, as I do, they don't know how many because I looked it up, but they know that there are many other herbicides that are, have just recently been registered or are pending registration. So again, the toolbox is full and it's getting fuller all the time. This one particular herbicide, if you weigh the the potential cost with the benefits, it just simply no longer makes sense.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So one of the studies here that the House, and it might be exactly the one, it just word indifferent in here, In the House version of the bill, it says in October, and it might be exactly what you said, although the dates seem off. In October 2025, the EPA has issued a memorandum titled Paraguay, review of the monetization potential of Paraqua from field uses and determined that there is a greater uncertainty regarding the potential for Paraqua to volatize than previously understood. The EPA concluded that more data is needed to understand the risks paraqa poses bystanders. That's correct. So that's the study that you're referencing. That's right.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: And that was the study that Steve mentioned. I'm a professor, a senator, a baby professor. I will I will work with professor Mortensen, if you'd be willing to take more testimony from him, might be able to answer this for you tomorrow. I know he's available tomorrow. Okay. Just to sort of do some of the calculations that I think you're trying to do in your mind right now, which is if, as Mr. Shore mentioned, you applied, he said, 20 gallons of paraquat on his orchard farm, how how much of that, based on what we now know about vapor pressure, how much of that volatilized, how much will go into the air, how far might that travel, how many people might be downwind, because it will travel with the air. Mhmm. How many people? Who, you know, who might be? Yeah. Might be At point, at least,

[Bill Suhr (Owner, Champlain Orchards & Douglas Orchard)]: I might not

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: be within two miles. But that's But I come back to the point. And I, and look, I think if I, if, again, to your question, Mr. Chairman, if this was the only way to grow apples in the state of Vermont, that would be a different story.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Well, I feel we're low hanging fruit, not used

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: on, but I think that's one

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: of the reasons that they're here

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: in Vermont, and I'm, if the rest of the nation is, and I'm looking, there's actually a lot more bills out there,

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: if you go to the

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: GSA site, USC, whatever, there's a lot more bills out there. I just hate, I had a fellow senators say, just hate to be the first one to start a role that we use is so limited and so small. And-

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: I'm not sure you'll be the first one,

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: but- We are the first one.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: We will be the first one to

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: do We are the first one. So all your states are actively- And here's the worry for a lot of our farms, and this is what we're hearing over and over. Took so many calls this weekend. What's next? What's coming next? And we know, of course, and we know that there will be. And so, you know, with something as small as this right here, I mean, we're hearing testimony upon testimony about testimony about the last thing that was banned was neonicotinoids. And now we're finding out the testimony that was taken. It should never happen. Our farmers we're an state. We're an ag state predominantly, and so they are feeling that we are the last stop to protect them from, sorry, you. No offense. But that's why we're here. There are farmers watching. Right, That's where we're at. You know, I absolutely positively appreciate you coming in. Yeah, thank you. And you were helpful. We don't use words in this committee that are meant to just make people feel good. You're very valuable. Your testimony was very valuable to us. I feel it was to myself, and I know what the questions are being asked, so You've waited to even

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Well, and if you would like to hear again from Professor Mortensen, he's just across the state line in Durham, I think, and he's available tomorrow to answer some of your questions, and I can send you a list of alternatives. I'm just sending you what's in the the small three guide that is you can all look at on the Internet. I've also pulled, and I'll

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: send this to Mohit as well, because

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: I was curious from the USGS data, I'll send the USGS data, how many pounds of these alternatives are used on orchard crops, because I don't have apples per se on orchard crops, and so some of them, in some cases, more than a thousand pounds of some of these chemical alternatives are being used on orchard for for crops. So, again, as an evidence that farmers are using other tools. But I couldn't tell you from this data that they're using it for this particular reuse of of dealing competition in their early years of establishment on to particular crop samples. Anyhow, I'm not sure I knew you could.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Great. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you. Many relatives in Texas?

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: I do have relatives in Texas. Yes. There are ranchers who are favors in Texas. Are you

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I have one. His name is Doug, and I've got a conversation going on him on another matter, so I didn't know. So Yeah. My I have a uncle who was

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: worked for NASA in '50s and '60s, and built simulators that trained astronauts. He just passed, he was 94. That's a good point to make.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, absolutely appreciate you coming in and making sure everyone else would be helpful, especially the amounts that other states use. I would love to see what other apple growers are using in place of Barrequa, And anything that you think that would be helpful to us as we move forward. I think by Friday of this week, maybe we might be, if not a little bit before that, we might be trying to wrap some of this up. We're getting close, but I'll do really good. Thank you for being

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: a good sport. Thank you, and hope to see you at Sugar and Spice.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: There you go. Walt's a good man. Walt's a great man.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Stay away from the donuts.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: He doesn't own that anymore.

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: Oh, sold the donut? I didn't. But he still has the Italian restaurant.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: He still has donuts and sugars. Bennington. You good? Yep. Yes, sir. Okay. Just see what we have going on tomorrow. We're a little light on tomorrow's schedule up till one We do have the retail grocers associate come in, and maybe we won't be late. Maybe we'll have a lot of questions on that. I want to dig into as deep as that as we can. Know, that is just a lot of unknowns as far as on that right there. And

[Scott Faber (Environmental Working Group; Adjunct Professor, Georgetown Law)]: let's

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: see what else we have. Thursday, we're kinda open. Friday, we're kinda open. So it is now time as far as along what we got going on to get some more testimony as far as any of the other sicilian pills that we have, people we have until May to wrap a lot of this stuff up. Let's you know, let's use not, our time wisely. It will come fast. We'll feel the pressure of it. We have some time this week. If you got anybody that has been asking to come before the committee, let's get them in on any topic that we have that's going right now. So it will come sooner than what we think.