Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Good morning. Bennington Agriculture back in action. We are going to take some more testimonies on paraquat, and we're gonna talk with some orchard folks today. I am looking for testifiers. We're gonna also do this on Tuesday, and we're gonna keep on hearing from folks pros and cons. We understand that people, it's a passionate argument that we are looking at, and we do have a lot of folks that want to tell us and explain to us how terrible Parkinson's is. We understand that, we really, really do. I can't even imagine what a diagnosis like that would be like. That isn't what we're looking for, to hear about how bad the disease is, and it's not being unsympathetic since we don't take that the committee is anyway minimizing any of that. We are trying to find what is the use of paraquat in the state of Vermont and how it may be linked into the public to where we could get to somebody that could cause Parkinson's, if there is a link with that as well. We have yet to hear compelling testimony one way or the other. And so we are going to keep on taking testimony all the way until this committee can get comfortable with making and defending a decision about which way they go with this bill. So that is what we want to get to. We are going to start the morning out with three testifiers, possibly four. I see Representative Burt in the room as well. Who would And we have some folks on Zoom as well, Linda? Yes. So who would I have go first? Would you look? Are you prepared? Sure. Step on up. The Yep. Yep. The floor is yours, sir.

[Dan Bear]: What time was it? No, she's gone.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Five minutes? Think, go in the morning. Thirty seconds.

[Dan Bear]: I guess I'd like to start by introducing myself. My name's Dan Bear. I run the Peck Farm orchard in East Montpelier, Vermont. Our property was settled in 1788 by an Italian Peck. We're in sentence, so in some form or fashion, it's been in the family since it was settled. Also where I grew up is the childhood home of Essex, the back of November, up for Bob and Lee. We've always had throughout those generations a close working relationship with the brain. It's sustained us quite literally. It is I'd like to say if everything burned down around me, I still couldn't move because we came from the. So when we make decisions regarding farming, there are generations working it out of us, wondering if we're gonna make the right decisions. We employ in our apple orchard a program called IKEA Integrated Pest Management. Sure, the short form of that is, I like to say, is low spray. Because our clients are mostly pet care of, people come in on weekends with their families, We can afford to spray less than, say, conventional farm wood. And we have absolutely wonderful customers. They really are the best. They're educated, they're passionate about their food, and they don't mind a spot here or there. They don't mind a little bit of focus. So when I say that, I get to take our customers into the orchard, those who want to hear the thirty minute, you know, what do you do, how do you do it, and they're very happy to live. So when I learned about this bill that was targeting a material that we used, Paraguat, I was interested and that's why I'm here to testify. I'd like to say first off that nobody dislikes spraying as much as a farm furniture. It's tedious, it can be very challenging, some of the equipment that we have, and it's expensive, right? And if anything, a Vermont farmer is cheap. I think I heard from Burr Morse, Vermont farmer's tighter than a maple barred on a maple, right? So if there's a way to avoid purchasing a material, we're gonna The material that we use that's in question today is, periclot, is something that we use very, very little of. We have a two and a half gallon jug that's lasted me ten years. So when we hear about it going into the environment, I think some people can imagine it just plumes of chemical going everywhere. It's simply not what happens. What we're doing is creating a narrow strip just under the trees that is not free from weeds but has fewer feeds in it. The negative effect of this weed pressure on the tree is it can, on young trees, can choke them out, they can die, there's a cost that we don't want to afford. Older trees, it can create habitat for pests if we're not able to suppress those weeds, those grasses. And it can create an environment where we'd have more disease getting into the canopy of the tree because of the lack of airflow and other issues. So material that we use is not broadcast over a wide area. It's a narrow band just beneath the tree, and I've seen some other reports about it drifting miles away. This might be a concern maybe in the Midwest or the West where they might use this material on a large acreage. But for orchard owners, we're typically inclined by hand or by small mechanical unit that's, you know, one person is operating, and when we apply this band of material, it's anywhere from three to six inches off your drain. We're not spraying it out into the air and in fact if we were to do that, the nature of this material, it would harm our trees. The last thing we would want

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: to do.

[Dan Bear]: So where somebody might imagine it just sort of a gaseous atmosphere, really what we have are small droplets that very narrow bands, very close to the ground. The other thing I noticed with this material, a benefit that I don't see talked about very often, is when we apply it in that narrow band, it'll break down the material that's not desired, it won't harm the tree, and as that material breaks down, it's creating a really, I call it a beautiful layer of soil hummus. So in farming agriculture, I'm sure you all know, soil pressure is a concern as to why they have no till operations with dairy farms and crops. And the soil pressure is quite literally that. Take a beaner, put it in the ground here where the tractor drives, they don't have a lot of pressure that restricts root movement, restricts water getting into the soil, but when I go into the bands where we apply this material, your fingers go right into the soil. It saps, it's beautiful. And one of the things I noticed last year, as you all know, we had a drought, dry period, where a hard, compact surface that's dry will shed water. This narrow band with this very soft soap actually absorbs the water, quite effectively. And what that means is when people are very concerned about water table issues, we won't have to irrigate as much as somebody in another application because we're getting so much moisture in that area. So we have drip irrigation that runs along the bottom of the trees and is able to feed the trees what they need and more effectively.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Do you use it mainly on young saplings or is this used in the orchard

[Dan Bear]: between most all entries? It should be used not on first or second year saplings. They have what's called a green bark. That might take in some of the material. The way I would use it in that application, because we have so much control over it, if you had a tree four feet apart from the other one, four to five feet, which is what we do, since I'm manually spraying it, it's trigger spraying, I would go past the tree six to 10 inches, spray up to the next tree, and leave just a little bit of grasses or bees next to each tree. Then we might go on your canopy, pull an out, by hand or with a trimmer.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: And once you spray it, how long do you wait to say mess around with the other tree?

[Dan Bear]: We'll wait seventy two hours just to be safe. And that's one of the other things about it is we're going to be extra cautious about it. Even though there's nobody in the orchard, nor will there be for months, We're not going to use this material for months. Is that what the label says, the label being a lot? No, it basically gives you this seventy two hour period for reentry. Technically we could, but we just don't need to, we don't want to. I mentioned it briefly before, it's

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: an expensive drug. How many times a year do

[Dan Bear]: you fly? One to two times a year. Should be two, but it's it is a, it takes two days. Did

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: you go through a certification or some kind of class to see how to apply?

[Dan Bear]: Yeah, so broadly speaking, I have my Vermont Pesticide Applicator's License, so we're educated in that. I took a course through UPN, but then in this particular product, the company requires, the analyst day of the park requires that you do an online training and that you pass their test with score of 100%. So I did that this year and it's put out by the company, but it is very serious. Focused on safety issues and they make it very clear how this is supposed to be. And I'm sorry.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: It's all about people.

[Dan Bear]: If this were to go away, what would you do for this? I briefly looked into it. I don't know what other materials there are. You know, the one that is closest to it would be glyphosate. That is taken up by the trees, harvest the trees. This product does. And at first I was a little When I first got this product, was wary of it because of the safety issues. And in my mind, I thought, how could something that's this harmful to my lungs actually not affect the tree? And it is very safe with the tree. And right away, take away most orchards to it, you know, we're not seeing it. If it went into the air, like I've heard described, it would damage our canopy. It's the last thing we want. It's the foliage of our trees.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Very helpful.

[Dan Bear]: Thank you, Mr. Chair. So how many acres? We have 10 acres of apples, but they're planted in a high density trellis, so it's going look more like a grape vineyard. Oh, great. Yep. High density trellis allows us fewer inputs and greater production. Sometimes three d tax is standard.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: And the ferroclaw's mixed with water, right? And then I'm just trying to get a mental picture of when you're four to six inches away, is there any sort of kickback or I know we don't aerial spray, Vermont, but I'm just trying to get a picture of what it looks like when you're spraying.

[Dan Bear]: Yeah, briefly, I can tell you, start to finish, when we're loading the tank, we're wearing full type XP. We have all our PPE. I just got a new full face mask, replaced the cartridges, rubber gloves. We load this tank and now the company, by law, has this continuity of transfer. So you can't pour it into a cup that you pour in. It's from the jug to the agitated tank. Excuse me. And then we mix the tank and I, because we're a small tan eaters, it's all by hand and I use wand sprayer. I go out on RTV, a gator, and we drive slowly and with the wand just over the tree so I can see each tree as it's coming. We're going one, maybe half a mile to one and a half miles per hour. So it's not a fast application, it's very deliberate, very focused. And I have had happen, you know, we do it only on an absolutely still day and really that's sort of the self preservation policy. I don't want it coming up on me fully covered, I just don't want to deal with that. So the second, if you get one of those rogue and breezes, shut it down. I'm done.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: And you mentioned you pick them. The people that come, customers are actually walking in that sprayed area?

[Dan Bear]: No, they can't because it's where the tree is. Okay. I mean, I wouldn't You're under the tree when you're Right, yeah. You you think of this tree as like a very tall, narrow tree. It's not a canopy. It's more like Yeah, like figure. Okay. Great things. Yeah, and as far as the material, from what I understand, what I've read, as soon as it hits soil, so all the microbes and fungus in the soil, break it down very quickly. I think the extended reentry period, that's sort of seventy two, forty eight to seventy two hours, I think that's being overly cautious. The area is safe, you know, from what we can tell very quickly, So that if we're doing it months out, that would be Okay. Yeah. I wouldn't be worried about someone even picking fruit out of the vineyard. Thanks. Any

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: other fruits that you're or any other product that you're growing?

[Dan Bear]: I just look to see if this is labeled for, you know, make sure you're all aware of the labels to the boss. So we read the label through every year. We are beginning some blueberries, so I'd like to see if it's labeled for blueberries. It is. That'd be very helpful for blueberries to get really packed on the components. Other than that, no, we wouldn't use it anywhere else. Any other weed suppression that's not near a fruit or vegetable or a day we'd use a different, you know, honestly from foraging problems.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: So

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: we were told that syngenta is being stopped in December. And do you have

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: a plan?

[Dan Bear]: Nope. And I had never heard that. Okay. Yeah. I I don't know where that information comes from. I'm not an industry insider. I I don't know what

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: it's Pretty certain that's what's gonna happen. I I I don't know how much they're gonna have that they're gonna just keep selling. Oh, and that was my other question. It's true. So it's 2.5 gallons ten years ago you bought, and where did you get it?

[Dan Bear]: From the well, at that time, it was a different name, but the the material suppliers of Addison are distinct. Okay. And the reason I ask

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: is we don't really know where all

[Dan Bear]: of it is but we're seeing, you know, where it's being sold. Addison. Yeah. It's sold mostly. But yeah, I think there might be, I don't know. Greg probably knows, but there's probably there's, I think, two main companies that we might get in.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Everybody good? Yeah. Anything, sir, that you'd like to add?

[Dan Bear]: Well, I appreciate hearing and listening. Yeah. Thank you very much. All the work you do.

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: Thank

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: you. Thank you. Linda, do we have some folks online?

[Linda (Committee Assistant)]: Yes. From the side of Vermont Orchids. Okay.

[Dan Bear]: Let's

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Laura Marks, are you with us?

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: It might be Leah Diamond.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Leah Diamond.

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: Yeah, they're both subject to lawmakers.

[Linda (Committee Assistant)]: Just step down for a minute.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: No problem. Anybody who's on the screen who wants to testify to Senate Agriculture, come on to me. Come on aboard. What?

[Dan Bear]: Just for the committee's benefit, I Googled this,

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Sagenta has announced it will cease global production of the Parrot Bud by the June of this year. December was I thought it

[Dan Bear]: was I thought it was Yeah. January. Probably production's June.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Good morning, how are you?

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: Hi, good morning.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Good morning.

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: We're from Southern Vermont Orchards. We're just saying good morning.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, we're all set for you to testify whenever you're ready.

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: I'm not really sure what you would like me to testify actually.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, I would love to, the committee would love to hear about whether you use paraquat in your orchards and your experience with it, how you use it, anything that you want to tell us about that or whether you don't use it or what your thoughts are.

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: So, it's a great product for us for young trees.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Please tell us. I'm sorry. I apologize. Just gotta tell us who you guys are. That's all.

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: My name is Laura Marks and I'm from Southern Vermont Orchards in Bennington, Vermont. And I'm with the owner, Leah Diamond. Morning. Good morning. Good morning. And like I was saying, we have had really great success with Paraquat using it on our young trees. It's a really effective product for us and it doesn't hurt our baby trees which is why we use it. We've done para training with the sprayers that use it. I just did the Syngenta training also. I think using the closed transfer system is very effective and safe. We do pride ourselves on following the rules and regulations and keeping our workers safe, as well as our community and also the success of our orchard.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: How many acres?

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: We're about two seventeen acres.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: And how much Paraquat do you think you use in a year?

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: Actually I figured, I can't remember what it was. I did, I think I used it four or five times last year. Can actually tell you exactly. I just have to get my record.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. We'd be interested in that.

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: Okay.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Leah, how long have yours has your orchard been in business?

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: Excuse me?

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: How long has your orchard been in business?

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: We've boned it since 1973.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I'm

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: a third generation apple grower.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: For the 200 acres, are those all apple trees?

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: Yes, it

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: is. And you've used Parrot Plot since 'seventy three?

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: No, no. It was highly recommended to us by our distributor for young trees. So I've been running the orchard. I've been here thirty years out of New York. So, as we've been replanting in the last couple of years, we've been using them mostly on the young trees.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Okay. As far as,

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: just curious about, because we are an agriculture committee, just curious about where your apples go. How do you market those apples?

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: The apples are sent down to Hudson River fruit distributors. It's a packer distributor out of Milton, New York. We're a family business.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Any UPICs?

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: No. No? No. I used to own the apple barn and I had a U pick there of strawberries and blueberries. But, I believe in the 1970s earlier when my dad purchased the orchard, they had a small U pick, but that's been gone for many years.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: 200 acres, how big is your workforce?

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: During the height of the season, about 63 guys.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Very impressive.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: And how long did you say you've been using Paraquat?

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: I'd have to look back in time. Been using it for the last couple of years as I've been replanting the orchard.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay.

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: But I don't believe it's been used for a long extended time. Russ, now I'm looking at the spray records and to let you know how much we used last year.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Do you have a one or two people that are licensed to do your spraying or do you have a, how does that work with you?

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: Just for the paraquad or just sprayers?

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: The paraquad, I guess, would be what I'd be interested in the most.

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: Yes, absolutely. Laura, what do have? Two, Well, there's three of us that are certified. And Laura is the operational manager that takes care of all of that.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay.

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: And we all have our pesticide license as well. There's about seven of us that have our licenses.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So you had said that it was highly recommended that you use Paraquat, so it must be that you weren't having good results with what you were using before or you just didn't have much of a thought process about it?

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: To be honest, probably not much of a thought process other than the fact it was a good product and it was safe to use on the young trees. There was history on how I came into becoming the ownermanager on the farm. So I went by with trust and the recommendation of our representatives, the nutrient rep.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Good. Laura, are you good to go?

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: Yes, so we used it for about six weeks and I'm going to guess, I'm going to say about, We used about 30 gallons.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: About 30 gallons. Okay.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: How how wide a strip would you spray? We burned up to What'd you say? About maybe two feet at the most? Two feet. Do you go wider?

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: No, we do not.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. Is it hand sprayed mainly?

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: No, we use an herbicide and it's about five inches off the ground, maybe.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Go Could through the step of what you do? You mix it obviously and then what happens? Tell us about the piece of equipment you use and how it operates if you

[Dan Bear]: could. You wanna?

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: We use an Edwards sprayer and I'm sorry, I'm

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: gonna interrupt a second. I happen to have my mechanic here as well. Can you come on over here? He'll give you exactly what we use.

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: It's a 36 inch band. Yep.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Sorry. Alright.

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: Peter, go ahead. Good morning.

[Dan Bear]: The hips are

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: set Can you hear him?

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yep. He's just gonna tell us who he is, please.

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: His name is Peter Farrington, and he's my mechanic on the farm.

[Dan Bear]: Go ahead, Peter. Welcome. So that

[Peter Farrington (Mechanic, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: the spray height is 14 inches above the ground. At that elevation, it leaves about a 32 to 36 inch spray pattern. Great. And is it just a watery mix or is there something added to it so it sticks to the, to the grass?

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: Just water. Just water.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Alright, thanks.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. Any more questions?

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Oh, yep. On application day, you, is it all, has to be, what's the conditions have to be that you spray in? Or does it matter?

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: Low humidity and no wind. Okay.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Any more questions? Really appreciate your testimony.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yep. Anything that you folks would like to add to your testimony?

[Dan Bear]: No.

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: I mean, we do try to be as safe as possible and keep everyone safe and follow the rules and follow the label.

[Dan Bear]: Okay.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: If you were to not have paraquat, what would you use?

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: We're trying to come up with something.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. Thank you. Ready, we're good? Roll them up.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Your supplier saplings. Could we get his contact information? He obviously sells a lot of saplings and obviously likes the use of Paraquat because that's how you found out about it. Just, just for, so we can get some more information to what we're thinking.

[Laura Marks (Southern Vermont Orchards)]: I'm not really sure if you wanna talk to the nurseries. I'm not, I don't think that's exactly what you're looking for. I'm not really sure. I feel like your best bet would to be in touch with Syngenta.

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: The gentleman who recommended it

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: is no longer there. A new guy.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: There's a

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: new rep that comes around.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. Alright. Okay. Well, thank you very much. We appreciate you taking the time and, thank you for digging for your records as well. And, if you have anything that you want to add, we're going be talking about this for a while, so please feel free to jump in at any time. Thank you for taking the time.

[Leah Diamond (Owner, Southern Vermont Orchards)]: Thank you. Thank you, guys.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Yep, you're very welcome. So I know we're focused mostly on Syngenta, but there are other manufacturers

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I'm that serve going to bring in, I'm going to ask Law's Agriculture Service, who was big in Addison County that way. I'm going to ask him to step in. There's still going to be a time for Tuesday to come in. That's a good suggestion as far as to bring those folks in as well and to see what they sell for gallons from that. Maybe even the old Northeast DAG as well. Well, was Shanya's, and it's starting to dwindle a little bit. But yeah, we can do that. Linda, do we have anybody else on? No. Okay. Mr. Burr, was there anything like you that I'd to add for testimony today?

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: I can. Yeah. Come on up. Records, representative Greg Burr, also an apple fortress and cabinet. I mean, I think you've heard pretty much the same story about how it's sprayed and used. In terms of the trying to think of a good way to visualize what was spraying, what it appears to look like to me anyway in terms of how much vapor is there coming off of this. I think it's probably some of the learning if you're out there with a garden hose watering your garden in terms of how long is there a little cloud of water vapor coming off of the spray that you're putting on your garden, you can visualize that. It's water coming. It doesn't really change the consistency of the liquid so that it's more, in my opinion, appearing more volatile when I when I see it. It's it's pretty much like if you were doing a broad spray with a garden hose, how long you would see a vapor cloud over that, it's not long. And we really don't want a vapor cloud because that's going to get all the foliage of the trees. I know

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: that when I had my pesticide applicator's license, we were always concerned about drift. Right. In fact, when there was a chance of anything that would drift, we would use a surfactant to make it heavier and make it so that it would cling quicker to whatever we were trying to make the contact on.

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: I don't use surfactant. Don't understand that's because- On cost you don't have to. Because we have to be careful that we're not putting something in there that can absorb into the tissue of the tree trunk more easily. So I use, it's not Roundup, it's glyphosate, it's another product, it's a generic brand. Yep. That specifically does not have the penetrance in it than Roundup would normally have. If you're just hitting vegetation that you want everything to die, penetrance and surfactants are a good thing. It helps it to penetrate and stick, but you don't want that on the trunk of a tree, we use the just base, no surfactant, no penetrant, just with the product itself because of that concern about getting it through the trunks. Yeah, that's, I think the nature of how it's applied is really it lends itself to trying to minimize drift, minimize volatility as much as possible.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: There's a big difference between the way you two apply it and what we just heard from the other African company, Southern Vermont. Of course, bigger scale, obviously, so you have to have those. He said 17 inches off the ground, correct?

[Dan Bear]: No, exactly. Forty forty three. 14, at

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: a 32 inches span. 32 inches span. Linda, we had a

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I'll see if I can find it as well. We had a strawberry grower in Addison, I think, that does not use Paraquat, and they came over on our emails, and I'd like to get that person in as well. And I think they're more organic. I don't think that they use any chemical at all. So I'd really like to I'll look through my emails as well. Sorry, Rutland and Burr. Oh, man. Apologize. I

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: would you know, I can speak a little bit to alternative methods that we would

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I would love to get.

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: What do I get? I've looked into purchasing a mower that goes behind the tractor that has a hydraulic arm coming off it. There's a supplier in Massachusetts who sells storage equipment, and it's basically a disc mower that appears to be about this big. It's on her arm that's moved hydraulically, and there's a when it there's a bar in front of it that is a sensor, basically. When it touches something, it hydraulically moves the arm backward, and then once that once you get past that bar, it would mow between the trunks. It's a, you know, I think when I priced it out it was $20,000 for that barn, so that would do a pretty good job of getting most of the grasses, and the trunk itself, you're gonna have, there's always gonna be a little bit of grass left that we would have to remove, and then you have, you know, and Dan was speaking of this, you have competition and a more compacted, tighter soil around the trees that the trees would have to basically compete with in that process if we leave vegetation growing at full, know, it's full. I have the orchard grass in my orchard left unchecking, my first branches on this small trees are down here, so it would be, we have to remove vegetation one way or another. I've experimented myself with a plant called ground ivy, has like seven names, it's ale hoof ground ivy, and I came across some research done in Korea where they did similar, where they tried to propagate ground ivy underneath the trees, and ground ivy is great because it only grows about that tall and it can kind of choke out other plants, and I experimented, I transplanted ground ivy throughout my orchard, and I found it naturally occurring, I said, wow, this is kind of, this seems to be working well. Because anyone else doing it, my wife found that research being done in Korea, that was the only other place that we could find it just by happenstance, we were able to transplant ground ivy throughout the orchard, so we've taken initiatives to do things. I actually used paraquat as an herbicide where there wasn't any ground ivy and where there was other vegetation, I used paraquat, burned that down so that the ground ivy, that's an ivy, throws out shoots, right, and then that's how it can spread. When I used Roundup, it would damage the ground ivy, so I was using Paraguat because it could more precisely isolate spots where there wasn't ground ivy, and then I had mixed success with that. It needs shade, it likes shade, of course we don't want too much shade, there are orchards we like to be able to penetrate through. I was able to make it work well in some places, where the ground was more moist, didn't like a dry spot. So I mean, I've been trying different things to minimize how much we're using, but it was actually paraquat, which was the kind of point of work to help that to happen, not the same because it would, kind of, it would get into the site, would actually kill the ground diabetes. So we're dry. The other option would be, you know, trying to till around the trees, but there's fine roots there that we don't want to damage. We don't want damage the trunks. Bill Scher, who I love, he testified in our committee, I would love to have him on if possible, but he really spoke to Our new planting systems require trees to be planted much closer together, more trees per acre, okay? So I have some areas where I'm at three feet between trees and 11 feet between rows, and that which gives you about 1,500 trees per acre. The old style was like somewhere between one hundred and three hundred trees per acre, so we're literally 10 times the amount of trunks coming up out of the ground, and those trunks are, it's really important that they are kept growing strongly and not competing with things. We have to have a return on investment of around six to eight years, or else you might as well not even plant the trees to campus. It's, I don't even know where it's at now, inflation, dollars 40,000 an acre is pretty average number for the cost to establish an orchard now, and if you start losing somewhere between 10 to 30% of the trees from, you know, just not proper management of those trees, competition was vegetation of dogwood, tree boars, which love having vegetation around the trunks to protect them from birds coming along and eating them. Anything that can shield a boar from a predator is another chance of losing a tree. It all takes one dwarf from

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: a dogwood bore, and the tree's done, I've lost trees to dogwood borers. What's the lifespan of your tree when you plant it? How many years is

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: it productive for? So I mean, I think you can get them to live forty to sixty years, but a lot of, and I think in Vermont you're gonna see orchardists trying to get them to live as long as possible, depending on their market. Other, I've talked to growers out in Utah where they're building, their plan is to only have trees that are there for twenty years, and then they're cycling them out because the next best apple is coming along, right? So they're not trying to plan for something thirty to forty years out, they're trying to make a good profit on a twenty year cycle, which means that you

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: can You can get get the orchard business has really been changing too from what we think of a traditional hawk orchard, it's changed dramatically, by the sense.

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: It really has. Yeah. We have to, we've got labor costs, you know, it's not different than any other form. Right. If we're trying to manage them as precisely as possible, you can't have somebody that's got shaky business skills in any agricultural business now. You have to be precise, have to look at a return on investment that's not too far out, and always be looking at the market for what it's potentially gonna do, so. Like everything else, margin for error is not large, and I think that's why you're seeing people with just one small piece of the puzzle saying, Hey, we don't take this decision lightly.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So you brought into the discussion a very good point, something, again, trying to just expand our knowledge in decision making. And you're talking about the fragility of the roots of the apple trees and other methods to get where you want to be. So there is a, when I was in that business and maybe it's changed as Senator Heffernan said, it's a changing industry. We would only fertilize around the drip ends of trees because we were worried about the root system of the trees and burning them up because they were fragile or whatever. Can you talk about more of the care that you have to give these apple trees and why some other forms of management might not work for you?

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: Sure, I mean, I'm constantly analyzing the health of my trees. We do foliar tests every year on different parts of the orchard, different varieties where you get leaf samples mid summer, send them out to a company, they tell you all your micronutrients down to manganese and copper, zinc, moron. Boron is one for, it doesn't take a whole lot to get off and all of a sudden you're not getting return blossoms. So we're constantly looking at our nutrients, right, and so the root systems are part of that. There's just so many different variables involved making sure the trees are at optimum health and optimum production, so. How do apple trees react or compaction as far as if you're running equipment in between them and all of that? Right, right, so I mean, at, as of, obviously where you're driving the tractor down between row mills, you're gonna have some compaction. The idea is to make sure that the rest of it's soft soil and soil that is optimal for growth. You know, there are machines out there where you can basically run the till pretty deep where your tracks are from your track to, and take the compaction out of that zone. I don't get that sophisticated, but yeah, but anything of the whole tree, the vine branches to the buds down to the fine roots, we have to be mindful of all the health. So I've applied about it. I've gone back to getting some cow manure from a dairy farmer down the road because I wanted to make sure that I'm not just using chemical fertilizer in the orchard, I want to make sure my microbiome is optimized too. I go, So in the next month or so, gonna go get a bit more from him and apply that throughout the orchard so that it has plenty of time to compost before fall, but that's, I've seen the benefits of that firsthand. Wood ash coming from the biomass plants, I've applied that, I prefer to get high magnesium lime over regular lime, which, you know, if you get lime from up in Northern Champlain Valley area, it doesn't have as much magnesium here. And down in South Wallingford in that area, it's getting into higher magnesium, okay? So I think about everything that's going on in my orchard, okay? Magnesium is associated with a lot of the needs of the tree in terms of the term bloom, in terms of getting fruit size, and magnesium competes with potassium. If you put down too much potassium and don't couple that with magnesium, that's the same uptake mechanism where you're going to actually block the tree from getting enough magnesium by giving you too much potassium. We have to be very careful with nitrogen. If you put too much nitrogen on, you're going get a lot of vegetation and you're not going get as much reproduction, but if you don't have enough nitrogen, you're not going get either. Quite the balance game. Yeah, so that's why I get those. We get soil analysis done too, foliar I think is more accurate, and so you really try

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: to get optimized on every single nutrient. And how many acres do you do? 20. So, thank you, Mr. Chair. Yesterday I brought up a study from the European Society of Medicine, and the professor we had from UNH expressed at least some doubt about that abstract that I read that had little causation between the use of PeriPoct and Parkinson's disease. Douglas Weed was his name, chronic last name. So I

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: had nothing else to do. I got that from you, Robert. Yes. Right.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Yeah. So he and the professor, forgive me, I can't remember his name, but he was our was like Morton. Morton, yes, okay. So he suggested that we were gonna get, and he did send it, another article. This is from the International Epidemiological Association, and one of the things that I think he expressed concern about from Doug Weed was that he was potentially linked with Syngenta in some fashion. Maybe I'm mischaracterizing what he said exactly, but at any rate. This is a study with five people, and to be fair, and I'm, again, trying to get as educated about this as I can, it did, The conclusion of this study was that paraquat dichloride exposure does increase the risk of Parkinson's disease, but I noted, in terms of conflict of interest, that two of the researchers, just to be fair, one is an expert consultant for the plaintiff in a lawsuit against Syngenta on the role of Paraguay, and the other one has also been retained as an expert consultant for the plaintiff in a similar lawsuit against Syngenta. So take that for whatever it's worth. I think a lot of us are linked in some fact into one side or another of an argument, but he was the one that brought up

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: the youngest Weed's Mortensen's point

[Dan Bear]: was that we didn't disclose that these folks did it. Okay. So that was sort of like that's fair. He also said he hadn't done a deep dive at the time.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Fair point. I also looked at the, One of my questions yesterday, I think, to the professor was, if this chemical is so bad, why hasn't the EPA done something until now about banning it nationwide? I did look on the EPA website. This is the Office of Chemical Safety and Pollution Prevention from the Environmental Protection Agency in The United States Of America. The conclusion at the end of it, and we were talking about the volatilization of the spray. So if you live a certain distance away from a farm that's using it, an orchard, there appears to be more of an incidence of contracting Parkinson's at some point. I think we heard early on in this whole discussion that age is a factor. The older you are, regardless of how close you are to someone that's using Paracord, the more likely you are to get Parkinson's. There aren't a lot of 25, 30 year old people that are contracting it, so the older you get. I think that is an important consideration, but anyway, they did a study on the volatization, and the conclusion, this is from the EPA from October 2025, the vapor pressure study submitted by Syngenta increased uncertainty around the potential for paraquat to volatize since vapor pressure is a key property used to estimate flux in that process. While the volatization screen is one tool to assess potential inhalation exposure, the results are not an indicator of risk or the need to identify risk mitigations. In the case of Paraguay, again, quoting from the EPA, there is discrepancy among the multiple lines of evidence. The ambient air monitoring study found no detectable levels of Paraguay in the air of communities near agricultural application sites. The EFED, that's Environmental Study, indicated that Paraquat is not expected to volatilize from water and soil, but it also has, in terms of a screening analysis, estimated an increased potential for that volatilization to occur from residues on foliage based on the new vapor pressure study, but in the end, they said to resolve the discrepancy introduced, they want more data more studies done. Again, I'm just trying to educate myself as to whether there's a problem and a definite link between folks that apply this or live near where it's being applied to the risk of contracting Parkinson's. And I'm seeing as is true in a lot of studies. There's one study that says yes, there's one study that says no, and we're kind of always caught in the middle, trying to decide here which way to go. So I just saw

[Dan Bear]: it for the committee's benefit, and I literally had nothing else to

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: do with this. And that actually

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: made me think of something I was gonna ask afterwards. My question asked more product and ask. Great. And Dan, does it have a smell?

[Dan Bear]: Yeah. They actually they add three different things as a safety measure, a dive, a material that causes you to gag and choke and vomit, and a very distinct smell. And what's what is it like? It's just like sharp, pungent. Is that how you would?

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: I know you would

[Dan Bear]: know that. Because that's the thing is if you Respirator smell on them. Same, yeah, so it's added on purpose.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Does it require respirator or just a face mask? That was a question

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: You know, I'd have

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: to look at that. I always wear because I don't.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah. I know, like, Roundup, you don't you don't require

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: it to, but I we wear Roundup too. Was The

[Dan Bear]: other thing I wanted to know because

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: you don't need the best.

[Dan Bear]: We Vermont has a a how old is the Fruit Growers Conference this year? A hundred and thirty years. Something from all there. The longest running agricultural fruit organization in in probably the country. And this is just anecdotal. I've never seen anyone with Parkinson's there. It's third, fourth generation farmers, you know, just guys that were exposed to chemicals that are now banned. I don't think I've ever seen anyone harmed by it.

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: I believe it's at NIH. Mean, I'm not willing to it, that's perfect, except just for the fact that I also researched it and we took testimony. I think it's the NIH, if I'm not wrong, did the largest study of all, which is over 30,000 agricultural workers, so people directly using parapod, and that that was the one that

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Which time of that study?

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: Yeah. I wanna find that study. That's the AHS study, Agricultural Health study, believe that's the one that, I believe it's B, that he references that in there and says You said NIH. I think it's the NIH. The same institute that decided whether or not our pharmaceutical drugs are sitting

[Dan Bear]: on it,

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: is also the one who took the data and did the study on whether or not paraquat was causing Parkinson's, and they did not find a

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: link in that study. Right, well we'll see if we

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: can find it. There were others certainly that saw a 1.46, and I don't know exactly what that number means, but a higher correlation between Parkinson's and there's specifically one down in California that I read about, and that's the one where he talks about there are two researchers involved in that were also involved in litigation against Syngenta. In that, European Medical Society article, I believe it's we. He at least, you know, you know, hit if he was being funded or linked to any particular entity in doing that meta study, he declared that he was not at the end of it. Yeah, that's true. But I don't know.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Who's who would you who do you wish that you would've gotten into your where would you wish that you were to gone that you guys didn't do in your house agriculture committee? Do you think of it

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: I wish we I wish we had testimony from from Gray that we we were not aware. We were trying to find out who else might be using carrot blonde seed. Just Strawberry guy. The strawberry guy, knowing that there are others you know, I don't wanna just carve out for apple growers if there are other folks who are using it in a very localized, special manner. And I've and he I I I talked to him briefly after he was left from giving testimony. He said there were certainly other conventional vegetable, berry growers that were using it too. Well, mentioned in California potatoes.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Yeah. Potatoes. York is it as well. And Greg, how much do you I think you

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: said this before, but how much do you use in here?

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: It's somewhere around a gallon, I believe, a year. It's not a lot. It is only, at this point, I was using it, like I said, when I was trying to establish ground agony, I was using it throughout our whole orchard at that point. Now I only use it on our young trees. Okay, and it's just on young trees? Yes.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: True vest. In fairness, to I texted Brad Laws from Laws Agricultural Service and just asked him about Paraquat, and he said, I haven't sold 20 gallons in ten years.

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: Nutrien Ag Solutions would probably be the one to get ahold of, They supply the most apple growers. They also want Northeast Ag there. Right. Yeah. Believe Addison's the one that's supplying the orchard. And

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: is that a good thing with this? So

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I just want to, as much as I want to limit, the effects of Parkinson's and all that, I think we're getting a very good idea about how people are using paraquat, so I'm going to start maybe draining down some of that testifying. Now I want to get it to some folks that have decided not to use it. I think that's fair. Well, I want to hear from them. And I'd like to really see if we can dig deep and find some studies and maybe even get some of those folks, even if they're not in Vermont, to get them on. Pros and cons. I'd be very interested in hearing about some of the long term users of paraquan and some of those bigger, massive, more amounts. I would love to get somebody who's I think that was said yesterday, and correct me if I'm wrong, I do not want to get it out there, but California uses 500,005 gallons of it or pounds? Or pounds. I can't remember what it was, but I'd love to find some more information about that. Let's keep digging. Let's let's keep let's keep doing what we do. Let's keep finding some I want some more testimony.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: And by contrast, I think from the ag agency, Vermont, maybe 120 gallons a day.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Oh, one twenty five, I thought. It was sold.

[Dan Bear]: It least less than that. I'd say it was 170.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I'd have a hard time saying that that amount was being used because as That's right. As Dan, you know? Yeah. 125

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: reported sales between '20

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Right. So I don't worry about you. 125. 125.

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: 30 in Bennington.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: That was We heard exactly

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: what was. All of it.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Although 67.5 was sold in acid,

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: said that they treated some soybean dry. Didn't give it again.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: You did ask a question about

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: the nurseries, and there are a couple, two biggest ones in our area. They might be worth talking to because they're only dealing with small trees. Not that they're not located for farming. You would see it.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: They download names, share them with us. Yeah, mean, we'll bring them in as much as Okay. Okay. To me,

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: more to come. Yeah.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah, I don't want to keep digging it,

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: so let's dig. Penn State could take on its harming effect, or what it can do to you, if you breathe it in, nosebleeds, but once it affects you, there's no off the bat, it's pretty consistent with the way, other than proper uses, there's many other chemicals out there that

[Dan Bear]: One you're saying behind thing

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: that's worth noting too, is just the fact that the other 70 countries, I think Brazil is looking at Parkinson's, that's the only other one I was aware of. All the other standards were acute toxicity. Either that's from suicide or from just a concern about how

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: And some people can argue that we're being lapsed and behind in this country, but maybe we're just doing a better job of keeping people from being affected as well. But we don't know that. I'd like testimony to where we can point to that. And again, I wanna get to where you guys can defend your decision on what you make, or the decision that you make. So let's keep asking the questions and let's keep going. I'm not ready to vote on this bill right now. Votes. I I think it would be unfair to everyone, if we did that. Let's keep Are we

[Dan Bear]: under some kind of gun? No. Okay.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah. That's Yep.

[Dan Bear]: That's what And you

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: if if we can even get to that. Yeah. Even if we can get to that. Yeah. So, no, I'm not. I'm not. I'm already done. I was trying to see

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: if we're there's some I have no I have

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: no plans to do anything other than to keep keep on taking testimony, and and this committee will tell me when they've

[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: heard or not. I've received a letter today. I'm saying April 15.

[Rep. Greg Burd (Vermont House; apple orchardist, Cabot)]: That's fantastic.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. Anybody else got anything to add? It's wonderful. We don't have anybody else online. Everybody's clear off. Everybody good in here.