Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Good morning. Sunnett Agriculture back in business. We're gonna have the honor of having A and R in the room. We haven't caught up with them for a long time We'd like to have a long, rainy discussion with them as far as anything that we should be looking forward in the second half of this year. The end of the year will come quick and we'll make sure that we get ahead of anything that we should be aware of. There's been a lot of talks going on about the permanent processes, the stakeholder groups, all of that. Everything's on the table to be discussed. We just really just would like to be made aware of. Secretary, I will apologize to you. You sent me a note last night and I should have responded to it and I went to do it 14 times I did So it might seem a little nefarious of where it went at, but is just a catch up for us for the second half of the year. If there's things that we don't know that we should know or things that we ask that you don't know, we're certainly all going to be here for a little bit longer. But we just wanted to catch up before the end of the season.

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: Okay.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: And of any things that we should be aware of, anything. Welcome, the floor is yours.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: All right.

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: I'm happy to take the chair for just a minute or two, but then presume most of your questions may be best put to my my colleague, Misty, here. So good morning. For the record, I'm Julie Moore. I'm the secretary of natural resources, and I'm joined by Misty Cinzigali, who's the commissioner of the Department of Environmental Conservation, as well as Brian Rutland, who heads our drinking water and groundwater protection division within the Department of Environmental Conservation. And I hope that between the three of us, we'll be able to answer any questions you may have. To the extent we aren't able, we're we're happy to follow back up. So just I believe this is the first time I've been in the community this year. So, it's a pleasure to join you. I think probably the areas of the intersection that I expect you may want to talk about today is the work around standing up a CAFO program.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yes.

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: That ANR is engaged in. MISTI has been participating in each of the stakeholder meetings and so can can provide an update on where that work stands. We anticipate having a report by the end of this month that both summarizes the input we've received from stakeholders, and then we're gonna write sort of a wraparound to it to start to lay out our vision for how we will actually use the recommendations from the stakeholders as we continue the work to build out the program. I know there have also been questions around on farm accessory businesses and some of the concerns around wastewater disposal in particular associated with those. And so asked Brian to join this morning with the thought that he could help answer questions in that space. And if there are other topics you'd like us to try to speak to,

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Sure. Have you

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: just you would want

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: to talk about, we did have a great discussion, actually a tutorial really, because that's what they are, the guards about the tile drainage.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: And

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: so if anything with that, I know that there is some ongoing litigation which we gotta stay away from about that, but any topic, but yes, of this is gonna center around the CAPO permitting and waters and anything else. If there's anything else that you need from us that we need to be paying attention to, that's really what we wanted. We just wanna make sure that we're ahead of the game. But yeah, a lot of the discussions that you've laid out, Secretary, would be very helpful for us.

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: Okay. Well then maybe I'll turn things over to Misty let her start giving just an update on the CAFO stakeholder process, and we can see where the conversation takes us.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Thank you, Brooke.

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: Alright. Thank you.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: I'm I'm joined.

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: So thank you again for having me. For the record, I'm Jason Galley, commissioner of environmental conservation. So I have been fortunate and lucky enough to sit in on all of the stakeholder groups that we we led starting back in last summer. We were tasked with Direct 67 of bringing out a consultant to mediate or to facilitate a stakeholder group with farmers and other stakeholders, which also involve environmental groups and agencies that are involved. We brought on a wonderful consultant, CBI, who came in, and we probably over the course of three to four months held We held meetings probably every couple weeks, probably at length two to three hours each meeting in person, mainly. Went through a number of topics and conversations with the facilitation of CBI. I looked at the process after it was all done and thought it was wildly successful. Will be 100% honest. Going into it, I will actually quote one of the partners who at the last meeting said, If you had said to me that I would come into this process and want to sit in the same room as the experimental groups, I would have said you were crazy, and here we are at the end of the process. We crafted and created a recommendation, the farmers and the environmental groups, not involved at the agency, this was outside of our stakeholder group. The agencies were talked to and brought in, but it was really something that was their effort, and they did it, and by the end of the stakeholder group, and I think you'll see this potentially when you're talking about continuing on a stakeholder group, or that they would like to co chair now moving forward, they would like the environmental group and farmers to co chair the group moving forward to continue the conversations and to say, started the conversations because we had to, and now we want to move forward as we want to. And so, that to me showed the success of the group. And also, coming out of the group, the report will show that there is a number of recommendations, including timelines that came out. We are going to do our best to use it as a roadmap, understanding that we have the authority to do certain things and don't have the authority to do other things, and understand that we are tied to creating and standing up for this CAIVO program and moving it forward, making sure that we can move forward a program that takes into account timelines and holding people accountable, and also understanding that change takes time. And so, that to say that we will work with the farming community and farmers as this program is stood up and implemented to ensure that they understand what is required of them, we understand our roles as agencies between the Agency of Ag and our agency, and that we've worked together to make sure that the resources, technical assistance, others that we can provide are provided, and that it is something that going into the future can be long lasting, no matter who is here. So, in terms of where we are, I think with the stakeholder report coming out this month, and then kind of putting our heads down and really making sure that we are following the timelines that we are asked to follow and standing up the program for rulemaking. I'm confident in the team that Abby Paycheck beats, if it's our cable program manager, it's now at five people. They have a lot of work to do, they know that. We know that we will continue to work hard to do these things, while at the same time acknowledging the outcomes that were put in the report that will be presented, and making sure that folks are clearly communicated with as we move forward, and that those folks are brought in throughout the process so that we can all make sure, whether it be aided species, you can say that in our EDC, as well as the farming community and environmental groups that we are all continuing to communicate so that nothing can prevent this crisis.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So, some very big words in there, not big in vocabulary, but some big words as far as important ones, trust and communication and moving forward and willing to collaborate. It doesn't sound like a lot of rulemaking was made to where it changed much as far as when everything left here last year with the K Home Permit process? It sounds like everybody's still feeling superior where they're at as far as it's all able to be done? Everybody's in that way?

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: Yes, so we took the initiative of what we were instructed to do and are moving forward. So we are not looking to change what we are required to do or have said we're going to do, is to stand up our CAFR program and to move through the whole banking.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I think that the angst of it when it left here was that, oh my god, it's gonna change a whole bunch of stuff, a whole bunch of work that's got done, and these four farmers are gonna get home just a little bit. It doesn't sound like it worked out that way.

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: I I don't think so. I think that through the communication and the I do see the requirement of the stakeholder group in x 67 needs of it, that it put us all at the table and of said, we're all gonna hear it, we're gonna talk through things, we're gonna hear what each other has to say, and we're gonna ensure that while we may not be able to implement or do everything that is outlined in the recommendations, we're having the conversation, and we will continue the conversation between the agencies, between the agencies and farmers, and I would say pulling that in would also involve not only our CAFO program, but our enforcement folks, so ensuring that our folks are all understanding of what we are doing moving forward. We're communicating not only across agencies, but we have our own department, which is incredibly important, which is something that continue to be incredibly proud of my folks, is that we acknowledge that there are things internally that we need to work on, and we are doing our best to move forward, saying that there are things in the past that we cannot change, but there are things that could move forward we can't. And so we are actively working together within our department, the agency of Ag, to ensure that communication wise we are on the St. V. H. Province, which is incredibly important for the farmers.

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: Can I maybe add one thing there, Senator Ingalls, which is just there is a recognition that there will need to be some improvements to barnyard practices to meet the Clean Water Act standards that are They don't overlap entirely with what has been required under the medium farm and large farm permits? And so, in collaboration with the agency of agriculture to make sure that going forward, as they are working with farms to design practices intended to meet the LFO or MFO standard that they also have eyes on what it takes to meet a Clean Water Act standard. Probably the the best example, although a fairly low cost one, is the Clean Water Act requires there to be some some ability to measure the amount of freeboard that remains in a manure pit. So between the surface elevation and when it would start to overflow, in general, the agency of agriculture has not been requiring farmers to install those measuring devices. Clean water permit would also require them to do record keeping. So essentially go out and make a visual inspection on a regular basis. So setting farmers up for success so that the the systems that are built on farms meet the the intentions of the medium and large farm permit, but also are are fully situated to do double duty and be meeting Clean Water Act obligations should the farmer come under a. Over. So there there's some true up that needs to happen. That example is a pretty low cost example. It's mostly a paperwork exercise. There are some other instances where there there may be additional costs we're working to try to understand where those gaps exist and then adjust our practices going forward to make sure that farmers are getting one set of design recommendations that are universally certain at the moment.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: John Rich, you have something?

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Yeah. You said there are some changes that needed to be made and you identified that. Can you give some examples of what they are, in particular? Obviously not all of them, if there are, you know, a significant number, but some of the high level things that you're looking to do.

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: Sure. So, one of the things that we have earned, and folks probably heard, is that when HCA Ag is on an arm or is doing an inspection and potentially sees a discharge, that

[Brian Redmond (Director, Drinking Water and Groundwater Protection Division, DEC)]: they do a referral to our enforcement folks, so

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: TEC. And there have been a number of referrals in the past that, and folks have said that they're unsure of what has happened with those referrals, where are those referrals for that. Yeah. The communication piece, let's say, wasn't there to identify what happened with those results. So, take that and we understand that we can do a better job together communicating, okay, if you are referring something to us, we want to make sure that one, we follow-up in a timely manner, and that two, we communicate with our partners as to what is going on, and keeping that communication open so that we understand what next steps may be. Is it something that we will keep with us, or is it something that potentially goes back to the agency of Ag, To kind of work with the farm. So that to me is something that is really important because it is not only outward facing or the farming community to say, we're working together as agencies. We want to make sure that we are clear in our communication with you and understanding what next steps may be, but also together as agencies to have that communication internally, so that there isn't a who's doing what and when piece, which I think is what we heard from folks in our stakeholder groups, as well as in other conversations I've had, is we want to see the agencies work together. We want to see the communication and the collaboration between the agencies work. We want to trust that we're all working in the best interest of Vermonters and that we're all upholding the rules and regulations that we need to be, but in a way that we are collaboratively together moving forward. And so, that has been something that we are looking at. Are a new Chief Enforcement Officer. We've got folks working across programs and across the agencies to ensure that on a regular basis, we share the information that we can and that moving forward, that those questions are answered.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: That does that makes me feel good because that's one of the things that that that we have heard is that that you you should, you know, be a tool in in helping, you know, our our farms. And this committee in particular is looking out for the 5% of their best interest kind of always, and there has been, you know, whether intentional or not, I don't you know, I'm not here to cast blame, dispersions. That has not always been the case. And so if we're moving forward to try to make us helpful, then that then that makes me feel good.

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: Clarity and certainty. Right? Yeah. So that's what people are looking for, internally and externally with the farmers. They wanna know what they have to do and what happens, you know, depending on what what that action is, and that, to us, is the most important piece, is making sure that they have that clarity, they have that certainty, and as much transparency as possible so that they know I'm going into something. If I go down this path, this is what will happen. If I go down this path, this is what's gonna happen. There's not the gray, which I think has caused a

[Brian Redmond (Director, Drinking Water and Groundwater Protection Division, DEC)]: lot of things in the past.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: So with respect to the stakeholder groups, can you kind of enumerate who was in those groups, or that group?

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: Sure, so we had, I think, selected, had gone past a wide net of farmers, larger farmers throughout the state. I would say probably a good 12, at least 12 to 15 farmers that were

[Brian Redmond (Director, Drinking Water and Groundwater Protection Division, DEC)]: in that group. So individual farmers or Individual farmers.

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: Who best represented? Individual farmers,

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Small farmers all the way

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: up to large farmers? We had some small farms, medium farms, and a lot of large farms. We would also say that we had the environmental groups were also part of that, also part of the conversation. They were brought in as part of stakeholder groups. And then our agencies were also part of that. So which environmental groups? So, do we have CLF? There we, there's the word. Oh, here's the, actually, so we had members of, I can actually read this, so NRCS, we had some technical service providers, some, the UVM Extension folks, Vermont Natural Resource Council, Conservation Law Foundation, Lake Champlain Committee, Farm Bureau, and then a number of, actually probably more than 12, close to 20 farmers in there. So, and then a good number of AAFM as well as DEC folks.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: Okay, thank you.

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: And this can all be we've got the whole stakeholder group that will be in appendix to our report as well. Okay. Thanks. And the hope is, I think, going forward, that some of the that more farmers are brought This is representative of what

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: we thought, you know, when we

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: were polled, brought farmers in, but we know this doesn't include everyone. So, it really will be important for all of us to AAFM and DC, ANR to be out talking with as many farmers as possible as we roll things out, because this was a intentional group, but certainly not everybody.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: The more farmers, the better parents.

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: Yes, yes.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Yes. So I've had this discussion with the secretary as well. Your customer service has not always been, and I would say. We've heard from the farmers that come in, plus from other divisions that when your folks come out, that they're, especially the farmers, they say for them the day before, the day of, it is stressful, it is because the person coming often is, it's like, what are you doing here? And they're more accusing and put them in a spot rather than, hey, do you know what's going on here? We need to get this fixed.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: We,

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: you, us, we work for our people. Right. And it doesn't mean that I can go sit there and go, I make your paycheck type of attitude, but to have that concern that I am here not I am here to enforce, but I'm here to work with you. And whatever I can do to facilitate that, often or not, what we hear is it comes back is, here's what you need to do, get it done, and find an engineer when the technician or whoever's coming out could easily say, You know, if you simply do this and that, you could have this problem solved, when I come back or if I send enforcement back and I did see a good example of that at a farm that I went to, they were having a small issue. He called me, we came, we fixed it, the guy came back and it was very good. But a lot of times we do not hear that. We're coming up. That's what we hear. That's what we hear from your people. You guys will come and go. We're here, we're here, and we don't really need to listen. So, Secretary, Ms. You are the boss. If anybody there better be listened to is you. And if you get enough people saying you're not happy with customer service, I would hope to say, I don't care if you've been here for twenty years. These people do health care of HS. They are part of her. Very few people actually want to destroy it wrong. I agree. You do have a few out there, but most of them want to know if I'm doing wrong, give me time to fix it. Yes. And please do not be accusing, you know, that you're blatantly damaging our water base. An overflowing manure pit, when we had excessive rain, and it's like, you've got a concerned individuals that don't have to give their name and they can complain. It's like, well, it could be the person's been complaining that I put mud down the road and they want to try to get even back to me. As long as you're working with and we get a report, if they were firm, but understanding. Yes. That's, I think, that's what this committee would like to hear. I know it's both personally I'd like to hear. And that not that, hey, I, you know, I don't, I'm here to just lay down the law. I'm not here to work with you. And we've heard that in many areas of ANR, and it's disheartening because you're good people. But some of the reports we get back, and some can be just somebody angry, but I know some of these other people that's just like, no, you're given an awful hard time and not getting any relief from the agency of saying, what can we do to work with you? Here's the only guidelines and this is what you gotta do. And

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: I think that that is, when you step back, you know, we are all public servants, first and foremost. So, the end of the day, we are here to I think we are educators and regulators, so I will say that. And I also think that working with folks, I mean, across all of our programs, across all of our divisions, especially in the DEC, that there is a component of education. And to me, being able to explain, you know, we have rules, we have regulations that we have to follow. So, first and foremost, that is our job as a regulator, but also to educate folks potentially before we go out, when we go out, to have those conversations about how we can what is, at the end of the day, what is our goal and how do we get there? We really do enforcement is not where we go first. We really want to work with folks to ensure compliance and to work through the process. That's not always easy to do. There is always room for improvement in terms of customer service and what we do. I have full faith that the team, our team, at the end of the day, is doing the best job that they can, That there are conversations out there that are happening that you can always do better at. I'm not going say that every situation is perfect, but I do think that educating folks and having them understand what we are trying to do

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: Oh, I

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: can take away some of that.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: I agree with you a 100%, but it's the delivery. We It really is the delivery and understanding that, look, what I'm telling you right now could cost you tens of thousands of dollars to fix, and I, you know, the agency, here's our rules and we'd like to have this done tomorrow. And you're talking to a struggling young farmer that now you just have given him a blow and say, well, we're gonna try to help you find an agency to help you with this. But the stress you just put on that person that already milk prices are down, fertilizer prices are up, grain prices are up, now I got the state that I love so dearly that I have a, now realizing I have an issue that I didn't realize I had, and they start putting pressure on me, is traumatic to the farmer, is traumatic to the homeowner, it's traumatic to every And yes, your enforcement, I'm here to protect Vermont. There's gotta be an equal balance saying, hey, this is what's gonna happen, we are gonna work with you. If you don't try to work toward it, then we're gonna start getting aggressive. I've heard before croissant, but others I've seen just the opposite. And I just wanna make you clear to to to all of you that we hear this in the field, and it's something that as state employees, we need to do better to say, I'm here to do what I have to do, but I'm gonna work with you a little bit. And if you don't comply, then it's gonna get bad. But I wanna help you. I don't wanna leave, and I know I'm making this stress, because often or not, we don't get that. This is just gonna cost you $10,000 to fix this, get it done. And it's not a good place to be in. It just adds more stress to somebody that's already in a stress spot.

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: Well, thank you. And we always welcome the conversation, and we'll continue to always welcome the conversation, and hope that you all, as well as folks that are working with us, can continue to come forward and have a conversation and work with us. We would love that to make

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: you your mission.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I need more about, the clean water part before we switch gears a little bit.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: I don't think so. Are you comfortable?

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: We will. We can always come back. Oh yes, I know.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Another thing that we've been trying to do, we're making grounds of it as well, And I think that we're more aligned with you folks than maybe other people in this building is our on farm accessory. And I just want to kind of be very clear about what we're trying to get to. We've all had parts of it, Senator Major, we've people in this area, but we've all had parts of it. We're just trying to get maybe to the next half a step as far as to where our on farm accessories could be without getting a full exemption on everything that they want to do. Case in point would be the Senator Major's got a farm that has dinners and they do have a little stage that they use. Maybe it's more of a stage than it is a structure, hay storage building. But the fact to make, I guess there's all kinds of different scenarios that we can get to. We just need one little bit more where we would feel happy about it. I don't think that the rum is coming from you folks. I think it's coming from other folks within the building that see it as a lot more, probably a lot like what, you know, when parties fight, they always think that, well, if I give a little bit here, then the next time it comes around, they're gonna pick something else. They're gonna go to something else, and I'm about to give up more. That's not what we're trying to get to, but I understand the fight of where it is. I don't know if I properly explained enough to where you folks could weigh in on it, but committee, is there anything else that you want to add to that?

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: I mean, I think you did a good job. We just have some farmers that, I I think someone used the, earlier in in another testimony, a bar that they happen to have, like you said, it isn't mostly used as as a bar. Yes. But, you know, they have a couple of weddings in it. You know, is that is that really an issue at that point? And, to center Ingalls, you know, the the they have it you you could see it's a stage, but they do have use it for hay, things of that nature. So those types of things where, you know, our our farm our farms are decreasing as we speak, and so they're trying to make a little a little money on the side to kinda sustain themselves, and I think if we can help them do that, I I I don't, you know, see a huge issue with it.

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: I would just say, we hear you and and it very much as you indicated, Senator Ingalls, it's it's sort of everyone's its own special snowflake with a different set of circumstances. And so part of what our conversations have been internally is places where I think we can provide a fairly modest level of regulatory relief. Also, some ideas about technical assistance Brian can can talk to you about, but just trying to brainstorm and and get that what some of those opportunities may be. I don't know if they're we're sort of at the right point in the session for some of these conversations, but also happy to to flush out ideas if there are things that sort of feel like are aligned with your vision and bring back more complete suggestions over the summer and into the fall. But but I think Brian can speak to to several different scenarios that we've observed We're all

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: into that.

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: And some ideas

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: we've had. Can I say that secretary Moore used a snowflake analogy in being a graduate of the university? Well, that's very. I

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Yeah. Thank you.

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: I like the Buffalo shout out.

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: Of course. Thank you.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: And after there's any Buffalo connection, can give a shout out.

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: Celebrate.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: Good morning. Good morning. For the

[Brian Redmond (Director, Drinking Water and Groundwater Protection Division, DEC)]: record, Brian Redmond. I'm the Director for the Drinking Water and Groundwater Protection Division in DDC. To give you a little bit of a scope of the work that I oversee in DDC, Think of it as the left and the right hand. On one hand, I have our public drinking water systems and the regulatory oversight of them across the state, 1,400 public drinking water systems in the state of Vermont, ranging from very small scale to the city of Rutland. On the other hand, and I think more germane to the discussion today is our on-site wastewater, our groundwater discharge part of our program. So chapter one of the environmental protection rule for wastewater system and global water supply rules. This is where this interface usually happens on accessory on farm businesses. So this is the subsurface wastewater disposal. Wastewater systems less than 6,500 gallons, large capacity septic systems. We have a separate program, which I'll describe shortly, and the permitting of the local drinking water systems, so they're down the public side of the equation. Two other groundwater discharge programs under the purview is our indirect discharge. Those are our large capacity septic systems. Vermont ski areas often have these village scale municipal wastewater infrastructure is trending in this direction permitted under this program. The other big piece of the indirect discharge program is the land application of non sewage waste. So think of your large dairy processors and the land application of the non sewage waste across the state. That's kind of the program. And then finally, we have the underground injection control program, which is authorized in the Safe Drinking Water Act, actually. But it's really the subsurface disposal of waste that is more potentially chemical constituents, drop water protection becomes a really focal point of the UIC program. Secretary Moore indicated at time of session, I have got two ideas and appreciate the offer and the openness to hear them related to this topic. The first, on the accessory on farm, we have had a number of these come through the program and I think in general it is a great thing for the state, our working lands, supporting our farmers, transitioning the agricultural economy, the ability to make money in a different way. And that's a, that's a great thing. So we do want to be there to support it. We have had several instances where some of them have run headfirst into our regulatory programs. We can, to your point, Senator Heffernan, have in these cases really done a lot of significant outreach to try to help provide the options for these businesses to help them navigate the regulation, typically in consultation with their consulting engineer or their licensed designer. The idea and some of the observations that I've had is there seems to be a disconnect when a project comes through for initial permitting to what actually ends up happening on the property. And I've been in consultation with the Agency of Agriculture and this idea of circuit provider, somebody to come and support this transition and help navigate the requirements. Because what we're seeing is something comes in for permitting one way, and then the business or the operation changes or expands and they need permitting a different way. So they're starting back, back at, at fresh. So some sort of pre consultation, pre permitting consultation to help people get on the right foot early on in the process. Within our rules now, two things. We have successfully permitted some on farm accessory business, one that I love to go to. It's a great restaurant in Braintree. And they've come through the process, we've designed and permitted a system at that facility that allows them to function a wonderful restaurant on the weekends. Our regulations also provide flexibility on special events under those permits. So special events 12 times a year are exempt under our rules for those facilities. That's recognition that there may be overloading of the wastewater system, recognition of a water supply, but that short duration of that event, we've actually carved out an exemption for that to occur. That's a flexibility, that's a nice option that is included in our current regulations. There's also an exemption that's twenty eight days, I may to double check that, around wetting barns that aren't served by water service connection.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Those are probably more of where we're at. You know, I get where you are as far as with the wastewaters and the over, you know, and all that stuff. We're we're probably we're probably even more in that narrow area as far as to the letting barns, the the simple farm stand, the simple we're gonna play music here on Friday night. We're gonna do that seven weekends out of the year, or seven nights out of the year. That's where we're at other than doing the full fledged Act two fifty review on that building because I have to go there. We're not even at the level of where you started at, which is great to hear the flexibility that you've included, we're even narrower than that. We're just on these small little things that make an extra of a difference. I think it's helpful for us to be able to explain that to folks that say, No, we're not trying to get into your business over there. We understand that and it's way above us. It's the flexibility of having somebody come out there and really say, You know what? You're really not trying to do too much here. Let's figure that carve out for them.

[Brian Redmond (Director, Drinking Water and Groundwater Protection Division, DEC)]: My second point, it's a good segue. The second point is related to our indirect discharge program. That's part of that program, large capacity septic on one side. On the other side, the land application of non sewage waste. There may be the need and it would be beneficial to the program. I don't have a specific proposal for you today. But to look at ideas for creating a category that we would consider de minimis for the land application of non sewage waste, really for beneficial use. Think of a small example that was given to this point, a small tube maker. You know, they want to comply with Vermont's regulations. They don't have a lot of non sewage waste, for washing of the equipment or the byproduct, and there's a beneficial use for So maybe encapsulating some of that because there is no de minimis, and technically land appliers on that non sewage waste require permits. So that's the other concept that comes to mind in an open offer that we could work with the Agency of Agriculture to look at that a little bit closer. I don't know if that's a this year thing or

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: a next We

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: get that too, yeah, we do get that thing. We would just like to see some movement on that, and to,

[Brian Redmond (Director, Drinking Water and Groundwater Protection Division, DEC)]: again- Washing on vegetables, right? That that was going

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: be diminished, but- Well, there's just a few, and I'm not making light of what, there's just a few kind of anomalies that we see, and again, this is almost even greater than what I'm even talking about. I'm talking about even less than that, but if we're talking about washing vegetables, we just knew that we weren't going to be able to take this off, but you could wash them outside, but then as soon as you brought them in undercover, it was a whole different permit being made. To be able to have somebody go there and say, We're talking 10 feet, the water to is run-in the same area, That's what it's going to be. I know that's a

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: little bit more tougher.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I do know that that's a little bit more tougher. But just to have somebody go out there and say, I don't really see much difference here. Yeah, we're going to get you under this little special permit at this point in time, but we are going to reinspect you again next year to make sure that you haven't got greater than what it is because out of sight, out of mind, and as soon as we're gone doesn't mean that all of a sudden it comes into a full fledged business not intended for what you had told us to do. So only adding more work to you, and I guess that's what legislators are really great at. Right? They should add more work. But even I think even the the overall of it, Brian, is even less than even that. It's it's it's like, okay. Seven weeks out of the year on a Friday night, we're gonna play some music on that little piece of wood right there. Mhmm. And then the other all the other of it, we may store store some hay in there. We made it look like a hay barn because we're you know, I don't even want them to do that. I don't even want them to throw a bale of hay out there to try to make it look like to you guys that, well, you know, they are we get there are disabreasal of this of people communicating together. Well, I wouldn't go through an old full Act two fifty review where where if they played on the ground if they played on the ground and played that music, there would be nothing nothing said about anything. But let's get them out on that platform. Mhmm. So like that. And I and there's a lot of other different little things. A little farm stand or stuff like that, that isn't going use waste water, it isn't going to use anything, isn't a year round use. That's as simple as what we're looking for, not at where some people are saying, because I do get, well, if we do it then, then more people are gonna want, and then this is gonna get a lot bigger than what we're prepared to do. But maybe a special permit or a special understanding that, No, this is all you're going to do. Don't make us come back here and find that you've done more, because then here's what's going to happen. We're not even looking probably at the level of what we spoke about.

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: And Mary Ingalls, can I ask you a question?

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yes.

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: So some of this feels like there's a nexus here with business planning, and I know that there's business planning work to help farmers that are considering some of these on farm business, both through VHCb

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: And through the Vermont Sustainable Jobs Fund.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: Yeah.

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: Are the the types of concerns you're raising people who are engaging with VHCb or the the Jobs Fund, or are these folks sort of with a a kernel of an idea that they're working towards? Because one idea would be also, in addition to partnering with the ag agency, could be for us to to talk to, like, the farm and forest viability team at the HCP or the the business planners at the jobs fund and see if there's a way to kind of collect ideas for some of these de minimis activities you're describing. And and Brian had that that one example of a de minimis activity, but try to build a better list that we could then A work

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: whole such a stakeholders group of getting some people together who have run into this and where the town doesn't have a problem with it. Nobody has a problem with but then it comes to ANR and it gives you guys a black eye because you're coming in, the additional rules that you have, and and then, you know, I get it, but sometimes let's just well, let's change the rule just a little bit. So, yeah, stakeholder group. What I don't wanna do, and we it's funny because we just had kind of this conversation with facts on current use. They were just in before you. What I don't want to do is I do not want to make a carve out I don't want to make it so that we're just trying to really change all what you do. Make a subcategory at some point, but yeah I do think that a larger discussion, bringing in some stakeholders, but listen, please understand this is all we're trying to do. We're not trying to bend the rules. We're not trying to break the rule. We're not trying to get ahead of anybody. Over and over and over, it just seems to come back to farm to table stuff. Okay. We're going to, we're following all the other rules that you guys have put out there. We are 50% of what we're selling is coming from the farm. We're not selling more than $250 worth of product adjusted for inflation coming from outside the group, but this is all we're trying to insert into that right there. But it's going to require an Act two fifty review of all that we're trying to do. Almost a subcategory of where it is, but I do think a stakeholders group would be very, very helpful to make sure, and maybe you guys are prepared to go even further than what I'm talking about. Maybe it is, and a stakeholder group I think would be very valuable with that.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: Thank you.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Yeah, in this case, the event that we're talking about is over where? Oh,

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Barn.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Barn. And it started small, correct? It started small and like anything kept growing and growing, that it finally brought attention to itself. Yeah. And so now, basically is that you got more public coming to it, that draws your attention. Well, think And then when it draws their

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: attention, now

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: it's just, do you have proper roundhouses? Do you have, you know, few basic things, and if you get any bigger, then we may have

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Which, to be honest with you, they should have proper roundhouses. Yeah. They should have four potties in there. They should be able to have that.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: But the

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: fact that they have a building that they have abandoned that can store hay or whatever triggers an Act two fifty review for that evening. But no, they should have all of that. And I go, do you know what we're talking about? So we're talking about an event in Senator Major's area where they are having events, where they are feeding folks, they're having an event approved by the town, Town loves it. They're having they're feeding what they're raising, a collection of farms, or feeding what they're raising. So they're having an arm on farm dinner, and they decide they wanna have a little bit of music. So they built a little stage, and wink wink wink. Well, it can store hay too, but they built a little simple stage with no services to it other than electric cord that runs out there, and and they have the band on there. Well, that building has triggered an Act two fifty review. And that's as simple as So let's shut the event down. And again, we're not trying to get past that. No. If you have got people there, we don't want people housing waste off. No, you've got to have what you need to have, but let's be reasonable about what we're really trying to do and should that be an active fit to review. I do think to flush all this out, that a stakeholder group would be very, very important And so that you folks can get a better understanding. And we could talk about all other scenarios about, and maybe it would be time for because of it's a changing landscape, the farmers are doing a lot of things different, they're trying to diverse, maybe there needs to be another set of rules that we need to make up other than these big, strong, stringent rules that we have that are governing a lot more bigger things that these are getting caught up into. So

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: Well, I I think we could look at the areas of intersection that these on farm events have with our existing regulatory programs. Most of them are in Brian's shop. Right? It's it's around making sure folks have safe drinking water and good wastewater disposal practices, whether that's through porta let's or through a septic system or even some land based application. But I think what we could come back with is a list of sort of where those thresholds either exist

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Yeah.

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: That that and de minimis quantities and or places where we don't currently have a de minimis standard that could be helpful to these enterprises Yep. And start the the conversation here. And I know act two fifties itself. Yeah. Sort of universe of stuff. And we intersect with act two fifty, but obviously don't fully fully control the decisions that get made there, but could come back with a a set of proposals in our space about what the triggers and thresholds would be.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I can almost guarantee you this is very dangerous. If we had that type of discussion, you'll probably never hear from this committee again about that ever again. That's how that's how minimal we're looking to try to do that. But I get it scares everybody else because it's such a broad rule and they're just trying to get a you know, they're trying to put the bus ahead of everyone else Yeah. And we're not trying to do that.

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: Well, and that's why I think if we also then the other maybe hand in glove component is to try to integrate it into some of those business planning services that are being offered elsewhere. Sure. So that folks recognize if and as they grow, there will come a point where they they won't qualify for the these exemptions. Right? They would actually have to to implement a full blown system. Our challenge, and Brian alluded to this, is a lot of times folks sort of grow incrementally over time and then suddenly find themselves in a place where they need a fairly significant investment that they hadn't anticipated because they they were permitted for something much smaller, and they they outgrew whatever that system was that they've been permitted.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, yeah, Sarah Heffernan touched touched on that a little bit as well, is that sometimes the weight of your success does actually put you into something different. Correct. And we understand that as well. Those are the things that people need to be worried about. How big do we wanna make this thing? Because do we really wanna go to that next step? No. We do not. We need to stay in our lane. That's what

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: we need to do. Yeah. So yeah. Yes, sir. So if I could offer my viewpoint on all of this, it seems that there's a theme here, and Senator Heffernan used the term customer service. I think we also have bedside manner spoken about in here. LFOs are yearly inspected, MFOs every five years, and then a certified small every seven. We did hear testimony from, I believe it was an LFO, that the day before his annual inspection, he couldn't sleep. He was sweating. He just I mean, it's reached that level with some folks. I've known Secretary Moore probably over a decade. I think you should have training done by you about this whole topic, customer service. You if you show up at a farm and, Hey, Mr. Or Mrs. Farmer, I'm here. I know this is the old phrase. From the government, I'm here

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: to help.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: But if it it's the way that it's presented, you know? Yeah. I didn't make the law, but I'm charged with making it compliant here. What can I do to help?

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: Yeah. And and we are actively working with our team to improve customer service. You know, I I I think if you asked a lot of our staff who their customers are, they would probably tell you Vermont's natural resources as opposed to Vermonters. Right? And so it's very well intentioned how they engage, but we have to put the people first in order to protect the resources we're charged with stewarding. And and Misty has been really good in that space too. Being responsive to people returning phone calls and emails, we've started to lay out a set of our expectations for our teams in terms of how quickly they should get back to somebody, even if it's just to say, I need a little more time to dig into this, but make that initial contact. I as Misty said, we know that there's room for improvement in in that space. We try to lead by example by being responsive ourselves. I think our division directors do a do a great job too. And a lot of it is just there's a lot of it coming on every given day and trying to help staff understand that tree you don't have to have the full answer. You can triage a response. And we have some folks that are really exceptional at it and try to also raise them up when when they do a good job. There's there's one member in particular, Brian's team, Bruce Douglas, that I just think is exemplary in his customer service. And so as he does that, try to to to showcase what he's doing with hope with the hope it serves as a model for others.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: I meant it as a compliment to you.

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: I appreciate that very much.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: But Misty and Brian have done a great job with presentations here Yeah. For the first time today. I'm just saying the manner in which

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: Yeah. It's delivered is so

[Brian Redmond (Director, Drinking Water and Groundwater Protection Division, DEC)]: And if I may go on a little defense for the program that I represent, we're getting lumped a little bit here, but our wastewater and potable water supply permitting program, the WW permits, 3,000 permits came amongst seven staff. It is the most This permitting program issues more permits than DEC issues to control from all events on their programs. Very high volume. Seven staff members, two working supervisors. The math is brutal. The old adage, time, money, quality, two. We're picking one and it's time. So we're on average getting those out around twenty days. And that's on sewer systems. This is on septic systems and connections to the Well,

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: telling you this, I'm in that business with real estate. I don't hear much about that. Don't hear It's working. Yes. It's better than working. It's working well for all that you're doing. I think it's some of the regulatory stuff that people are feeling real anxious about.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: And most of the stuff, they are licensed professionals or engineers sending so it shouldn't take that long. That could be a whole different story you'd

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: like to

[Brian Redmond (Director, Drinking Water and Groundwater Protection Division, DEC)]: have about that.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: We're losing that press company. Wrong committee. But, yeah, you do a good job, but it's, you're getting designers that are sending in that went to school for it and really everything that comes across your desk should. It's good. Very. Yeah, it does vary at times. You've got your good ones and bad ones, just like in any business.

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: And what I will say, to kind of add to that is, one of the initiatives that, I mean, Brian's team is kind of, are the ones that we hold up as an example of, you know, timely response getting back, and it a lot of the times comes at, like, the expense of getting the work done because you're constantly you're working with folks to have that and to make sure that that customer service is there, that we're serving public. The Vermont Environmental Permit Assistance Center, BPAC, is something that Brian is part of a steering committee, and we have some folks working on. It's kind of a new newer initiative that we at DEC are working on that is very much human centered customer service focused to really stand up. We we went from having permit specialist to or they're humans that work walked people through what they needed to do, got them into the system, and then turned them over to the technical experts that then processed. We then went to an electronic permit navigator, which an online tool. For many different reasons, we are moving away from that. And so we are actually now saying, okay, we actually need the human centered with the IT or that technical piece of it, and it's really a front door model. So we're we're working on you have something that you're working on, insert x y z as scope, you you don't even know where to begin. Well, I'm gonna come to these group of folks at DEC that are going to help me. They're going to take a look at what I have, be able to tell me potentially what permits I need, not just say, now go forth, good luck and apply, but actually walk them through, here, here's what you will need for that application, let me help you gather those, have those meetings ahead of time so that you understand what the process is, that kind of break down those silos, but really be human centered, and a big part of, Brian, if we all have these conversations often, is also getting out in the communities so that when folks say, I know that I'm gonna need something, but I don't know what I need. I know DEC will have to be involved in some way. Oh, but wait, there's there are folks at DEC that could potentially answer those questions for me. So we hear it. We understand that. We also understand that our folks you know, when Brian talks about the number of permits that, you know, you do have to pay to time, customer service. Like, there are things that in that big in the big world we live in that sometimes falter, and we wanna give the space to our teams to be able to do have the technical expertise, do what they need to do by providing some of that front end service that will improve externally working with folks, Vermonters, and provide that customer service, but also give our folks internally the space that they need to be able to do the jobs that they do. So we hear it, and and and we look forward to engaging what recommendations you could potentially have for that as well. I put that out there.

[Brian Redmond (Director, Drinking Water and Groundwater Protection Division, DEC)]: The only thing I would add to that is, you know, feedback is also part of that engine and something relevant to what we're hearing today is about the cultural shift around customer service. I very much see that as part of the foundation to help make that shift that Secretary more so for that. And she's so personable.

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: If she

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: came to my farm, I'd enjoy it. Depends

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: on what she's coming for.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: Well, thought you could fake me. Thank

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: you. You better. What

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: else, committee? Anything from you folks to us?

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: No, just appreciate your interest and your engagement. It's always helpful for us to hear what you're hearing from your constituents. I I know that one of the other pieces is just trying to make ourselves accessible and less scary so people feel like they can reach out and share concerns. You know, we have a lot of good problem solvers at the agency, but we can't solve the problems we don't hear about. And so I I think at times, there there is this discomfort because we are a regulatory agency. People don't wanna reach out and share what what what they're stuck on because they feel like that's gonna bring in and and exactly. An enforcement response as opposed to some technical assistance. And just anything you can do to help message to your constituents that coming to us fairly, we welcome the opportunity to provide that kind of technical assistance because it saves all of us time on the back end. It's it's really helpful. And we'll give some more thought on sort of how we could frame out a set of kind of de minimis exemptions that could could be shared out around on farm accessory businesses. Some of them, I think, Brian indicated, exist, and we could just articulate them. Some of them may not exist, and that could be a set of requests that come

[Brian Redmond (Director, Drinking Water and Groundwater Protection Division, DEC)]: back to little we're asking. Yeah.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: How little we're asking. We're really not asking for a whole bunch.

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: We're not asking to yeah. I'll leave it at that. We're not asking for a launch. So but We're happy to work on that.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, we're happy that you came in. We appreciate it very much. We're here to serve. If there's anything that you need, legislation that needs to happen, especially after this report that you get back, that's something that we need to get ahead of, please let us know, like you always have. We are very appreciative. Appreciate the working relationship. You're always approachable, and we thank you very much.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Just don't ask for anymore. Well,

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: and and this the stakeholder report should come in at the end of the month. And so if you I mean, I recognize things, warning committees tend to to wind down as day approaches.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, we'd be we'd be interested. Yeah.

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: I was gonna say

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We really would. We'd have we'd have a whole lot of partners who are yeah. We'd be interested here in that.

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: So we we'll we'll keep you apprised. I we had said we would deliver it in April, and I I believe we are remain on track to do that. So we'll let you know as soon as it's it's getting close in case

[Misty Sinsigalli (Commissioner of Environmental Conservation, ANR/DEC)]: you wanna hold time on your calendar.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Great. Sounds good. Well, Linda's the boss.

[Julie Moore (Secretary of Natural Resources)]: I understand that. So

[Senator Brian Collamore (Member)]: do we. Thank you.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Thank very much. Thank you for coming. Thank you. Appreciate taking the time. Very, very much appreciated. Committee, anything else that you want to discuss?