Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Good morning. Sun Agriculture back in action. We're gonna spend some time with Salvation Farms with an update. We have Kelly Dolan and John Ramsey that are gonna be with us today. Kelly, before we really get into or during the presentation, and you have a very great packet here, just scan it through us, very, very in-depth. For the people that may be watching and don't understand who you are and what you do, At some point in time, whether at the beginning or the end or during, if you could just do a great job of explaining how much you do because it's just incredible seeing down through this package. I I wanna make sure that everybody understands what Salvation Farm is all about. So Yeah. The floor is yours.

[Kelly Dolan, Executive Director, Salvation Farms]: Thank you so much, and thank you so much for the opportunity to share today. You know, we appreciate your time and everything that the senate ag committee does on behalf of Vermont Farms. I'm gonna share screen. Yeah. So my name is Kelly Dolan. I'm the executive director of Salvation Farms. We're a nonprofit organization. We're based in Lawrenceville, Vermont. I'm joined today by John Ramsey, the executive director of the Center for an Agricultural Economy. I'm here today to share a little bit about Growth Love H and Farm since then, where we're headed, and most importantly, why this moment matters. This presentation reflects years of partnership, learning and listening across Vermont's food system, and a clear opportunity to build infrastructure that better services farms, communities, and the state as a whole. Today, I'll be providing a little bit of an overview of Salvation Farms, and then John and I will be discussing Salvation Farms and the Center for Agricultural Economies Proxy Programs, and providing a status update on our renovation project. I'll also be sharing the funding request to support operations of Salvation Farms processing program that I'm hoping the committee will consider.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Are you in anywhere in a government's budget or anywhere else?

[Kelly Dolan, Executive Director, Salvation Farms]: Yes. Yeah, so we were in the House Ag budget memo. We didn't make it into the House's full budget, but we were included in that House's budget memo. And so, yes, and so the original request to them was a $100,000, and they were included $50,000 for this. And, you know, we're incredibly appreciative of funding that the state has provided to Salvation Farms for necessary infrastructure, and hoping that the Senate Committee on Agriculture will consider a $100,000 cost for funding to support ongoing operations for our processing program. And as I mentioned, the House Ag Committee did include us to add 15,000. So just to provide a little bit of an overview of Salvation Farms. So we work statewide at the intersection of farm viability and food access. Her role is to solve systemic challenges that individual farms or food programs can't solve alone. Specifically, what happens when good food has no market and communities struggle to access healthy, local food at the same time? At the heart of our work is the belief that a strong food system isn't just about food, it's about relationships that build towards thriving communities and farms. Our mission is rooted in connection, connecting farms to markets, surplus to need, and people to meaningful work. At its core, Salvation Farms exists to ensure that all Vermonters, regardless of income or personal background or any individual circumstances, can access nutritious local foods while farms are supported through a diversity of income streams. So what is surplus food? Well, according to Salvation Farms internal research, about 14,300,000 pounds of vegetables and berries from Vermont farms end up as food loss each year. Surplus food is often misunderstood. This is not waste. It's high quality food grown for people that isn't reaching traditional markets due to forces outside of the farmer's control. It could be weather events, shifting contracts, or cosmetic standards. Without the right infrastructure, this food is lost. With the right systems, it becomes an asset that can contribute to Vermont's agricultural economy. We know that one in four Vermonters are accessing food from an institution or a charitable program on a regular basis. The vast majority of that food is coming from out of state, and according to a 2022 UVM study, two in five Vermont residents had experienced food insecurity that year. Salvation Farms bridges the gap between existing resource on farms and eaters in need of food. So to provide a little bit of an overview of Salvation Farms and the work that we do, our organization has moved more than 1,250,000 pounds of surplus food from farms to Vermonters. The organization includes three program areas, our Canadian program, the Vermont Community Collective, and the Salvation Farms to Processing program. Repeat that one?

[Unidentified Committee Member (Senate Agriculture)]: Oh, absolutely. 1,250,000 pounds over how many years?

[Kelly Dolan, Executive Director, Salvation Farms]: So we've been working for about twenty years. We were established as a nonprofit in 2012. Still a lot. Yeah, yeah. And so in terms of our cleaning program, this program uses volunteer labor to harvest food from farms and distribute that food to Vermonters in need. In a single year, we provide approximately 200,000 servings of food to about 10,000 Vermonters. Salvation Farms also leads the Vermont Weaning Collective. This brings together six member organizations, weaning food from around the state. Through the collective, we're able to demonstrate the sharing impact of leaning in Vermont statewide. For the collective as a whole, this includes about 1,500 individual volunteers, about 400,000 pounds of food recovered, over 200 partner farms, and two twenty seven food distribution sites across the state. To share a little bit about Salvation Farms processing program, this aims to create a market for farm surplus and prevents food from having waste and simply rotting in fields. In contrast to our cleaning program, which uses volunteer labor, this is establishing a paid market for that farm surplus. When surplus can't reach a market, Salvation Farms purchases this at a lower price point and in turn sells it to charitable food programs and institutions such as prisons and schools at a lower cost. Examples of our products include corn on the cob, mashed potatoes, and pureed squash. Over the past two years, we've been working together with the Center for an Agricultural Economy, renting kitchen space at the Vermont Food Venture Center, and partnering with their production staff, which has allowed us to focus on product development. This program is meant to address barriers to local food or charitable food programs and the most vulnerable within our state, including affordability. This program is able to make local food more accessible to charitable food programs that have been priced out of the market. Ready to use, so this product is offering prepped frozen products that save time and ease the burden for short staffed kitchens. And in turn, this helps to support farms returning surplus into income instead of waste.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: You answered one of my questions. I'm glad I waited and Senator Major has taught me sometimes just shut up and it comes back. That is the gist of a lot of what's going on. The farmers aren't just doing, I'm not implying that they would anyways, but the farmers aren't just doing this out of the kindness of their hearts of picking the extra product, but there actually is a reward for them at a lower price point, but yet still some money's available for them.

[Kelly Dolan, Executive Director, Salvation Farms]: Exactly, and with profit burden being so slim for farms, those small amount of dollars can make a significant difference. Salvation Farms is meant to be reactive and responsive, so when an opportunity arises for a customer falling through, or there's a supply chain disruption, or whatever the case may be, that's when we're able to help to process that food and get it to the sales staff.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So you're getting calls at all different times, and not always the same call every year, but saying, Hey, this is what's going on with us.

[Kelly Dolan, Executive Director, Salvation Farms]: Right, and sometimes that's for our gleaning program, where we'll send out volunteer labor, and we're certainly in the ramping up phases, So, you know, at this point, we're hoping to do 50,000 pounds in year one. But yes, sort of meant to be reactive where we'll reach out to farms. Have some really strong established relationships with farms, and we're able to respond when there is surplus. We also work with deep root co op as well that helps to aggregate some of this farm surplus, so it just, you know, provides a little bit of ease on our end. This just shows a little bit in terms of the process, how does the farm reach the market? So Salvation Farms would be purchasing that food from the farm. After that, that food would go to the Vermont Food Venture Center, and we would be contracting with Just Cut, so Center for Agricultural Economies Processing Program, to process that produce, and then selling that finished product to to charitable programs and institutions, namely for instance, and some specific. And that's some examples on the right hand side of the finished product there. Just to speak a little bit about our partnership with the Department of Corrections. So in 2026, Salvation Farms received the Farm to Institution Market Development Grant from the Vermont Agency of Agriculture. This funding builds on earlier work from Farm to Institution of New England, which focused on understanding the barriers of getting local food into correctional facilities within Vermont. Salvation Farms is part of that effort, and now we're taking the next step. We're working closely with the DOC to apply the lessons that we learned to expand access to Vermont grown minimally processed vegetables using surplus food. Our product is intended to reach all six prisons across the state, providing 20,000 pounds, minimally, of minimally processed produce to roughly 1,600 incarcerated individuals and 600 DOC staff. It also builds on our longstanding relationship with the DOC, including past processing programs that happened at the Southeast State Correctional Facility. We're also helping to build brokering relationships between Vermont Farms and the DOC kitchen staff. They're often working with for a very limited time for farm outreach to be able to establish those relationships. And then most importantly, we're doing this in a way that supports the cost per meal requirements of the DOC, which is only $2.2 per meal, so fairly restrictive in terms

[Unidentified Participant]: of what their wages are for.

[Kelly Dolan, Executive Director, Salvation Farms]: As mentioned, Salvation Farms and the Center for an Agricultural Economy are partnering on a shared renovation process. Know, originally the plan was to have a separate facility, so Salvation Farms having our own. We've had a long standing partnership with CAE, and by working together, we're able to further our impact, and also reduce redundancies within the food system, and specifically within food processing. So, we received the $500,000 appropriation from the state of Vermont in 2023. We received additional funding from the Northern Borders Regional Commission to support the infrastructure and renovation process. And John and I have been working together on operations, an operations agreement between the two organizations, determining how this partnership really works on the ground and what it looks like day to day. So, yeah, and so I'm gonna pass it off to John Grantzey just to share a little bit more about

[Unidentified Participant]: the work that we've been doing.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah.

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: Well, thank you all for just taking time this morning to meet with us, and I really appreciate that Kelly, you invited me to join you in the presentation, so thank you for that. As you all know, Center for Public Culture Connington, we've been building a lot of infrastructure over the last couple of years, and one of the real through lines of that is that this is shared infrastructure. It not only is infrastructure that benefits the programs that we operate directly, but also partners, producers, you mentioned deeper organic co op. We've really been sort of building infrastructure that is shared infrastructure that's gonna benefit our businesses, our farms, and our communities. And this is another evolution in that step. So, after the new food hub was able to be constructed at the end of last year, some space that had been previously occupied by Jasper Hill after the Food Venter Center opened up. And we've been sort of thinking, okay, we're gonna move our processing program into that space, And, you know, after, you know, we've been in conversation for several months now, and sort of coming around to, okay, well how could these two programs really work together if we invest in one facility that would be more fully utilized and more fully, creating a larger benefit to the producers and the purchasers of the food that we provide access to. So, right now that space is essentially vacant, so we've got some temporary pallet racking in there and a temporary cooler. We just had an inspection by the fire marshal. You know, they said this looks like a good project. We also had an inspection by the health inspector from Vermont. They said from a food safety standpoint, this allows us to, yet again, sort of reach a higher level of food safety because the produce processing would be in a dedicated space in the building, whereas right now it is in a space that right adjacent to the kitchen where the processing is happening, other production is happening, sometimes with allergens and other things. So the health department thought this was also a really good move for the programs to have a more dedicated space. I And would also just say a lot of this work, the electrical, the plumbing, the floors, floor drains, these are things that we've already taken on and done in the Food Denture Center. This, for us, is a, sure, this is gonna be a scope of work between now and August to get done, but we've got great relationships with plumbers and electricians, and we have an ability essentially, be our own general contractor, which saves a lot of time, a lot of money, and so Center for Agricultural Economy is sort of taking that role a little bit in this project, sort of the physical renovation part, and as Kelly said, we've made a lot of progress in terms of the operating agreement, working out some of what the price structure is gonna be, in terms of what they would pay for us to do the processing, and it's a lot to work through up front, but I think it's better to work through all the details and get it right, you know, sort of, especially kind of upfront. So we've actually been working on this for six or eight months now maybe, or maybe not quite that long, but certainly since the very end of last year, very beginning of this year, really sort of put a lot of work in between that.

[Unidentified Committee Member (Senate Agriculture)]: And that basically is gonna, somebody can come in and use the processing center individually. Like, say I got a big gardener and I got a lot of leftover I can call, rent the space to wash, process.

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: Not exactly. So right now, we have three kitchens. Yep. Two of which what you, you're describing, folks would have access to. So we would move our processing out of the current kitchen, the third kitchen, so that would free up a third kitchen for folks like you were just prescribing to come in. But the processing is gonna be a dedicated space done by staff only because of the level of equipment and investment that we're talking about. So this is really where we're trying to go with this is specialization, efficiency, scaling, volume, and so, somebody coming in who's not experienced with the level of equipment that we're talking about in investing in. They just send

[Unidentified Committee Member (Senate Agriculture)]: me my

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: product. Well, exactly, exactly, so, yeah. How many farms are you working? If you go to the next slide. So, our processing program is called Jessica, and we're working with roughly 20 farms, and we're sourcing around 170,000 pounds of produce a year, plus or minus. We have really spent a lot of time working with some of our larger institutions, healthcare, UBM dining, Norwich University, Champlain College. They take scale and volume, and that allows us to work with a lot of K-twelve schools, which aren't in a position often to take a lot of volume. So, when we're doing a processing run of 1,000 pounds of potatoes for UVM, we can sort of add in additional orders for K-twelve schools much easier if we're able to do some larger processing runs. So we have really spent a lot of time developing those relationships with higher education and healthcare, as well as several K-twelve schools. Our approach to the raw product supply is what we call a good faith agreement. So, we're essentially signing an agreement with the farm up front at the beginning of the year, where we're saying, okay, if you grow 40,000 pounds of carrots for rump, we'll buy it from you at this price point, and we sort of agree on how that product, we generally pick that product up at the farm and then get it there ourselves. We're also in the development of some new products, so we're working with another college on a kale product. Right now we primarily work with root crops. They store well, they grow well, but there are some other products that are in development that we're working on right now. And right now we're able to cover a little bit more than 65% of our operating costs through the earned revenue sales of that produce. I'm sorry, and these are farms throughout the state? Are they more centralized in that? No, have Penny K, Upper Valley, Champlain Valley, folks down in, even down in Rutland, the Old Woods Market Garden Farm. We did. Yeah, it's all right. But that allows, snow just left where we are, and so there's other parts of the state which are ahead of us from a season standpoint. It's a lot of currency. Yes, yes. So, we're going through a lot of volume, and also, we have these ebbs and flows in our production, especially around the academic year and especially during, we just went through spring break, and we're seeing an opportunity where some of those ebbs and flows we could be processing for Salvation Farms. So again, this is an opportunity where both programs benefit, and it sort of evens out some of the work schedule, and we've been working on some different products, and some of the products in Salvation Farms working on a little bit different than some of the products that we do. And again, this is all in development, and year one is going to really inform a lot of how year two looks like, but we have been doing work for Salvation Farms, as Kelly said, in some of these lulls. So we did a big one just recently, we did some over right at the beginning of the year, in the holiday season. So, you know, we've been dipping our toe in the water and testing this. You know, they've been operating, and then we've been operating, so we something to build from it. We've some trial and error done.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So I know the space of your chocolate, Bella. Yes. What I can't picture in my brain are where your three kitchens are. Are there one, two, and three all aligned right there? I'm just missing one.

[Unidentified Committee Member (Senate Agriculture)]: Yep,

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: one, two, and three. And then in the back corner is where Jasper Hill had their cheese in Victoria.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Right, I know where that was.

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: And so they moved out of that, and then they're gonna, they're also, this renovation, I'll just say, is actually quite extensive. Jasper Hill is putting Oh about yeah, sure. Jasper Hill is putting about 1,500,000.0 of their own money into renovating the Food Venture Center space that they will continue to use process.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So even though they probably are looking to expand where they're at, it's actually on the farm and all that stuff, this relationship with them has worked well enough where they want to stay around. Yeah. Because they've been a great anchor for you.

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: Yes, exactly, exactly. So they're increasing their cheese production, we're aiming to increase our produce processing production, and it opens up a third kitchen to rent to food business entrepreneurs, farmers. So there's a lot of multiple benefits, and then again, going back to that creating facilities that are shared use facilities that multiple parties benefit from is always part of our thought process and our approach to things. And this gives you a little bit of a before and after. So, on the left is, in the gray is the current footprint that we're utilizing for our programs, and the sort of white hashed area is the current footprint that Jasper Hill had been leasing to us for their storage and their creamery, and you can sort of see on the right hand side, we have essentially squared off the building a little bit in terms of how it's being divided up, and we will have a net gain of a little over 1,200 square feet. Again, that allows us to do cooler freezer reconfiguration, add a fourth larger kitchen for produce processing, and again, free up essentially that middle kitchen, which is the one, I guess it's harder to see on the screen here, but

[Unidentified Committee Member (Senate Agriculture)]: on the top The top of your slide breaks down.

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: Oh, okay. Yeah, so the raw kitchen will become now a multi purpose kitchen with cooking elements and the ability to be used by other food business entrepreneurs. And then over in the upper left corner, see the new kitchen that says produce, new produce kitchen, new freezer cooler, and again, that will allow for better food safety compliance and higher level of food safety audit, as well as a better flow of product in and out of the kitchen.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: And Kelly, where do you guys produce now? You must have a facility that you're doing.

[Kelly Dolan, Executive Director, Salvation Farms]: So we actually rent space from from the Center for an Agricultural Economy and are are contracting with their staff to provide processing support. We have some of our staff that also helps to do some of

[Unidentified Participant]: the processing, so we've worked together at the remote center.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, I would say, John, that your building's gonna get too small pretty quick.

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: That's If

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: you guys ever have a chance to go through hard work, get a stop in. Advance notice would be great, but to see what they're doing in the middle of nowhere is pretty impressive. Really is.

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: Don't you have the Fort DeOcean Crossroads?

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yes, Fort DeOcean Crossroads, and yeah. It is very, very impressive.

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: But this idea that we're building things that multiple parties benefit from really is a guiding sort of value for us, and it's not just about our programs, it's about partners. As you know, we also do a lot of work with Free Mountain Farm to School, and so, yeah, finding ways in which there are a lot of different benefits for our communities and farmers is definitely an approach that we take to these projects. Has the demand for the kitchens increased as people get

[Unidentified Committee Member (Senate Agriculture)]: to know about it, or is it still kinda getting flags?

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: Well, we went through a big drop in usage during the pandemic, and since then we've been sort of rebounding, and I would say we're right about plateauing, and part of that is capacity, part of it is equipment. There's some specific pieces of equipment that we want to add in this new rentable kitchen that would attract additional producers. So, yes, we both see opportunities, but also we're currently turning folks away because we're not quite set up for what they need, so.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, go down to some more numbers. You have some more numbers here, diversifying Salvation Farms funding, is that real?

[Kelly Dolan, Executive Director, Salvation Farms]: Yeah, so I mentioned before that we did receive this appropriation for the state of Vermont and those funds are being utilized to support the construction at the Vermont Food Venture Center. We also received funding from the Northern Borders Regional Commissioner Catalyst Program, and that funding is going to be put towards equipment costs, so really that is supporting the infrastructure that's necessary to be able to allow both programs to ramp up our process. Then in terms of operations, looking forward, once we're able and actually up and running, we did receive, I mentioned that Farm to Institution Market Development grant. That's a two year grant, just below $30,000 to help work with the DOC. We anticipate about $125,000 in revenue in year one, And so, there's the need to ensure that we have additional funding in place, especially at the start of the program, thinking about how we're going to be launching, ensuring that we're successful getting salvation farms the early phases of our processing off the ground. And so, this is their reason and rationale behind this funding request. Really, in terms of the partners that we've lined up, we're aiming to support the most vulnerable within our state, focused really on supporting charitable food programs. We're planning to start working with the Vermont Food Bank in 2027 as a committed buyer. Meals on Wheels programs as well. So I think Kim Lipinski came to present last year and talked a little bit about that partnership. And again, the DOC, understanding that this is an example of a market that's working with highly restrictive budgets, but still deserves to have the ability to access high quality food. So, we know that our expenses in year one in terms of the business planning that we're working with, we anticipate them to be about 3 and $25,000 And so, we're working right now to really plan for the future and ensure that our program has the adequate funding to ensure that we are able to get off the ground to be successful.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: So do you own

[Unidentified Committee Member (Senate Agriculture)]: a building or rent the building?

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: The Center for Cultural Economy Homes is still Okay. Great.

[Kelly Dolan, Executive Director, Salvation Farms]: Yeah, and so just to name again this request that we have in place, you know, we know that we weren't included in the larger house budget, asking the Senate Advocacy if you would consider being a champion of this request, know, helping small kitchen farms to be successful, above and beyond that, help to support farms with additional revenue, help to ensure that some of the most vulnerable in our state have access to local community.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: How big is Salvation Farms? How many people are you shrouded with?

[Kelly Dolan, Executive Director, Salvation Farms]: In terms of our staff? Yeah, your network. Yeah, so in terms of the people that we feed, it's about 10,000 people. We partnered this past year with 34 farms. We distributed food to 76 food distribution sites, so that includes food shelves, it includes good programs, head start programs. Our staff is pretty small. We're about six people. We work over the course of the year with 150 volunteers. How

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: are you distributing your food?

[Kelly Dolan, Executive Director, Salvation Farms]: So we have two F-one 150 Pigak drops that we use for food delivery for the cleaning program. And we're not intending to do any of the distribution ourselves. So, our processing program, we're already working with Farm Connects to help with food distribution. And then with the Vermont Food Bank, they have their own distribution trusts. So, with distributors as opposed to having Salvation Farms do the distribution ourselves.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, think it's worthy. I think you're partnered with a good organization. Think along with John, I think he's done a fantastic job throughout the state, certainly in the area where his buildings are located as well. He goes all the way to Rutland, I'm here. I think we could champion that. Speaking for myself, but I will talk to the committee, we'll talk. We like what you do.

[Unidentified Committee Member (Senate Agriculture)]: As you know, I'm on these tights.

[Unidentified Participant]: Yeah. Definitely

[Kelly Dolan, Executive Director, Salvation Farms]: understand that and just appreciative of the support. Makes a world of difference and it means a lot to us. You know, just really appreciate the time. You know, we'll do a good job and make sure that any funding that is gone requires.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, I think the thing, I'm very proud of this committee. They've heard, I think, the first time I told them that.

[Unidentified Committee Member (Senate Agriculture)]: Yeah. Is April fools.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah, it

[Unidentified Committee Member (Senate Agriculture)]: is very true.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: But I'm you know, we are very much about supporting the smallest of the small as much as the big is the big and everywhere in between, so we'll we'll we'll we'll for sure. So Thank you. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you guys for Appreciate coming you very much.

[Kelly Dolan, Executive Director, Salvation Farms]: Yep.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Great. Okay, committee. We can either power first of all, I apologize, if you tell us everything you want to tell us.

[Kelly Dolan, Executive Director, Salvation Farms]: I think so, unless John, do have anything else for me to share?

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: Not at the moment, but yeah, thank you again for your time and all your support for all the things in Vermont Ag, and I know there was just a conversation about working lands funding and everything you're working through, and I know you're kind of getting into the long end of the session here, so thanks for sticking with everything that comes in front of you so much. Yeah, really appreciate it.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: And you guys as well. Absolutely. Great, we can power through and start off the events early with Steve, do you want to What give him a do want to do? Steve, are you ready?

[Unidentified Committee Member (Senate Agriculture)]: I am, but I'm easier to tolerate with a break.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Thank you. Thank you very much. We're going to spend some time with Steve Collier, attorney for HMAC culture, and we're just gonna have a little bit of a walk through. I gotta get off the April fools work. And we kinda have a few minutes to spend on July. There are acts relating to favor the use and sale of the herbicide Garaquat. And also on September, should we, the act relating to miscellating the entire filter are subject. Although

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: bills have come over

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: from our house counterparts. And so we're going to spend some time, as you guys are very well aware, on the Paraguay issue on Friday, but I thought it was very important after our brief summaries of going down through yesterday that we bring in the agency so they can, tell us what they'd like us to know about that. So, sir,

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: the floor is yours. Great. Thank you. Good morning. Steve Collamore from the Agency of Agriculture. It's great to see you all. And on our April Fool's Day, and also because, our wonderful executive assistant is currently, attending to her dad's funeral in New York, and I'd like to give her a chuck. Would you mind if I give a couple of No. Please do. Please do. So there's there's this cartoon character, Steve the otter, and and I never heard of him before Terry, but Terry likes to put cartoons on on my door from him. And there's a couple that fit me pretty well. And one of them is that and this is Steve the Otter, and this is it turns out, and this is true, that I'm not getting any smarter as I get older. I'm just running out of stupid things to do. And the other more recent addition that she's she's put up there is that and this has become my new motto, and it sort of has always fit me. I just didn't know it is that they can't outsmart you if you're not smart.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: That's a good driver.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: Seeks the best Steve. Right. Well, thank you for giving me that latitude. Hopefully, it'll cheer her up a bit. So I was going to talk about the house keeping bill first just because I mean, Steve, it.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Is that okay? Just Yeah. Whatever you'd to do. Floor is yours.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: Okay. Great. Thanks. So all of the proposal is in h 9 42.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I have a few

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: for copies if anybody wants one. Alright.

[Unidentified Participant]: It's good to know. A lot here.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah. We get on our website. I think we're good. Okay.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: So they're all three of the proposals that the house passed were our proposals, so we supported them all, worked with the committee on them. And I'll just give you a a brief overview of each one

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: and then quickly run through

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: the language if that is okay. So the so the first one, section one, it relates to agricultural water quality training. And so the the backdrop here is that in 2015, when the when the Vermont's water quality act was was passed, Act 64 2015, there were very wide sweeping changes in what farmers were required to do to protect water quality. So part of the statutory change included mandatory training for all farmers, and we had to prescribe that by rule, and so the law was passed in 2015, and both 2016 and 2018, we amended the required agricultural practices, and ever since that time, there's been a mandatory four hour water quality training for farmers every five years. And that training requirement is not particularly onerous in and of itself, but the reason for it was to make sure that everybody understood what the RIPs are and that they were complying with them. And over the course of the last eight or nine years, wherever it's been, we've we've had more than 32,000 attendees at the water quality trainings, and we've hosted more than hosted or paid for more than a thousand events, and we always wanna lead by training, so we don't wanna back away from water quality training in any way, but we feel like sort of the rudimentary requirements of the RAPs are no longer no longer necessary to be trained. And, it's really administratively burdensome to keep track for all farmers who are subject to the rule, whether or not they've done their four hours in five years, maybe. So what we want to do and what the house agreed to do is to take away the shall, that we shall do this, and instead make it

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: a may. And there's a

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: couple of pieces to that. One is we wanna expand the scope of what we're training on. We'd like to get beyond the basics and try to move toward best practices. So we change we proposed changing the statutes. So we're doing more of the basics and helping people learn how to do even better things. And then the other piece of that is if if a mostly farmers understand the rule, mostly they're complying. But if someone is not complying, you do wanna retain the authority to acquire those people. So to go out training, either as part of their permit or just on a case by case basis. So, basically, that's that's the overview, and and I can quickly run through the language if you want. Do you want me

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: to go through the language or not? What do you guys think?

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: No. Think much covered every time. Yeah. Okay. You're pretty much

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: going on to that, okay, farmers. This is the basics of what you guys should know. We wanna we wanna we wanna up our game a little bit.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: We wanna continue the the training, and it will continue to be free, and we'll continue to to enable us to hire people at UVM and the conservation districts to do it. But, yes, we wanna focus on, okay, you're meeting the minimums, but how can you do even better? Not not that you have to, but how can you do better because it's better for the farm, it's better for water quality. So, yes, we wanna be able to focus on on better improvements. So

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: changing it from the Shell to the May, is there a downside to that? I mean, now you may get some problems that won't get the training, is it sure?

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: I think the only, there's a potential downside if people don't know about the rules, but if we encounter that, then we can require So right now, we just view it as kind of administrative, like you're just requiring somebody to attend four hours over five years, keeping track if you went to one hour here, two hours here, and administering that. Like, it just doesn't feel like an effective use of our time or for farmers. But the downside would be if there's no training, people would want to do it. That's why we wanna we wanna continue to have the ability that if you're not following the rules and we feel like you don't know how to go, we can say you must attend this training, which will still be. Okay. So I I think it's I think it's pretty well covered. The other thing I should mention is that we did consult with ANR about this, and the house ag committee did, and they were fine to FERC to our preferences on this issue, so there's no disagreement there. So Ed for that one? Yeah. Yeah. Great. Yeah. I love how this committee doesn't really necessarily like me to read the language or No.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: No. Particularly good at it. We haven't signed it one off the house.

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: I said, everybody himself. That's last

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: Perfect. So section two. This one's an interesting one. The the language changes are pretty minimal, but because of we have one landfill in the state and because of all the laws that require basically to put as little in the landfill as possible, there's a lot more potentially contaminated materials going to farms. And and so we we currently, before this those change, have the ability to have some regulation over things that are being deposited in manure pits and digesters. So but we do not have authority over materials that are spread in the fields. And so ANR regulates that material, and there can be some materials that are have have nutrients and can be beneficial to farms in the fields, but some of those materials may also have a lot of other things, like microplastics or PFAS or heavy metals or other things that are not part of the analysis in determining whether they should be placed where we put our food. So we worked with ANR to try what we wanted to do, and this language does it, is to expand the scope so that ANR will continue to have exclusive authority over what it regulates and what's coming out of solid waste facilities and what can be spread on fields. But we would have the ability before somebody brings those things to a farm field to ask not only what it is, which we can already do if it's going in a pit or digester, but not a field, but we can ask for laboratory test results for specific contaminants of concern. And then we can decide whether or not that's harmful to the farm. And and before, the whole impetus was looking at water quality and environment, and we've expanded that scope so they can be looking at human health, environment, soil health, plant health, so that it is encompassing things like and this is a real you know, there are several states around the country that have had their farms have been heavily impacted by different kinds of PFAS, and that's just one of the many examples of things that if you don't know it's there and you're getting the tipping fee to take it and you're spreading it on your land, you may actually be ruining your soybeans. Right. And nobody wants that, including the farmers, but if they don't know what's in it, that can be a a real problem. So it's just trying to provide an extra layer, plug a gap essentially, that, you know, these these materials may be beneficial if they have nutrients, but if they have other things that are gonna harm your farm, it would give us the ability to to demand some information before approving that. But if it is acceptable for farm use, if it's still they'll come to the barn and still be used. And so that's the that's the goal of this Yeah.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Can tell you as chair and as as for the committee, we're gonna be looking at some testimony on this as far as the sludge that gets spread and and and stuff like that. What's already happening and what do we need to watch out for more? So we're gonna need a little education on this. And so we'll be looking for you as some work on this list as we'll chat well with Linda as well. I wanna spend a little bit more time on this so we can be knowledgeable. I, I am aware of the main situation where it just basically ruined the soils on that farm up there, and we'll be we I wanna spend some attention on this.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: Yeah. And we have some I'm not the the expert on this, but we we do have a toxicologist, and we have some other people who are very knowledgeable about this, and I I would suggest, probably, if you wanna learn about it, it'd be both from us and ANR Yeah. Because we have kind of corollary roles. The the good news about the Maine situation is not good at all for Maine, but the differentiator from Vermont is my understanding is most of that was from paper sludge Mhmm. From the paper industry, so there was a, you know, a known source of contamination for that. We're not aware I mean, there's peephots everywhere, but we're not aware and there's been some, you know, since the Vermont Equity Banks in that have been, you know, very problematic, but we're not aware of the specific source that's coming to farms, but we don't know what we don't know. Right. And there are a lot of materials that get spread on farms, including some of this stuff and also even some fertilizers and other things. It is a concern that warrants some

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We'll spend some time on this. Yeah. So I'll just let everybody be aware of that. If anybody else got any comment on that, feel free to.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: As for this language that we proposed and the House passed, both ANR and our agency are supportive of it and do think it will help. That doesn't mean that more can be done, but we're trying to be very careful not to step in any way on ANR's authority, but also make sure that once it's coming to a farm, we can take that next step and make sure that it shouldn't be coming to a farm. Questions on subject to Okay. We're good to move on. Yes, sir. Great. Okay. So the next one is, starts with section three, and it's unit and retail pricing. So unit pricing is the actual, when you see on a product, the amount that something is by weight or measure, so by pound or by ounce, so if you're looking, and it's probably the most helpful thing, especially in a grocery store for consumers who are trying to save money to be able to evaluate what pumping is. I know when I go buy an ice cream, I now need two cartons because they keep shrinking them. So so one's not gonna do it. But it's a way to check. Different size bottles, different size packages. If you fill up a bag a bag of chips, it's half full, and you can look at the unit price and see what you're actually getting. So it's a really important consumer protection information for folks who wanna know what the best deal is. Our law was written back in 1971, and it's only been sort of very roughly amended since then. Our rule is also very old, and, it just doesn't make very much sense right now, the way the unit pricing rule is written. So this the principal goal here is to modernize our language, which is good for retailers because it makes it more consistent along state lines. We're adopting something from the National Conference on Weights and Measures, which puts out model guidelines, which we we implement in all in in our weights and measures department in many, many areas, but it was not specifically incorporated for unit pricing. So we're really most of this is just about trying to update our laws so that it's easy to interpret it easy to interpret and implement. There's another piece, though, which is reflecting a new change with electronic shelf labels. So some stores are starting, instead of putting paper tags on the shelf, they're starting to use electronic shelf labels, which is actually can be great because a lot of the price discrepancies you see at the register is when the system is updated differently than shelf labels, which can cause, you know, causes a lot of problems, it's difficult to do them simultaneously. With the electronic shelf tags, you can do it all at once. So even if the price was a mistake, at least what you read on the shelf, it's still gonna be what you pay, which is a good thing. But the challenge to electronic shelf labels is you could do something called dynamic pricing, where you can automatically change the prices based on demand. Like, as an example, during lunch hour, you could jack up your prices or dinner time or whenever you expect the demand to be higher, you could you could jack up the prices, which is we don't regulate that per se. We don't regulate what people charge. What we what we demand is that what they say they're going to charge is actually what they charge. But what we what we don't want to happen is for someone to take something off the shelf thinking it's a dollar and get to the register and pay $2, and that can happen if you're changing changing the prices while people are in the store. So we we added definitions for electronic shelf labels and also for dynamic pricing, and what we proposed and the house agreed with was that you can you can have a lot of times, shop labels are fine, and you can use them, but you cannot change the price while the store is open. So you'd have to wait till the end of a business day to change to change the What happens if you got, like, a price shop where it's twenty four hours a day? That's a great question. You, and we didn't, actually, I didn't consider that. Okay. Look at you, Steve. Yeah, there it is. See, I was expecting you to see the otter. You can't outsmart me. Can't outsmart me. Know, I didn't think about that, and maybe we need maybe we need to put something in there that says And you're open twenty four hours a day. You do it at 1AM or something like that. Or or there is a there is a caveat in there for if you can correct an error, but you have to notify the customers that you're that you're doing that.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Is this bill is there a section at all, a mandate that a store must? I mean, the just kinda looking down through it and doing the 30,000 foot overview. And from what I've heard about this section that it was

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: telling mom and pops, mini bars that they had to do, that they had to go to unit pricing. So currently under the law, there's there's an exemption that we didn't change, or it's not changed in this in this bill for any single store. So if you're a single store with less 7,000 square feet, I have no idea where that number came from because that's big. It's not a mom and pop store. But if you have one store of 7,000 square feet or less, you don't have to have to unit pricing.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: Everybody else does, and that's the same as it has been. However, we shared this language before proposing it with the Vermont Retail Grocer Association. They're fine with everything. I actually not Stewart's is a convenience store group that just bought Jiffy, so they've got quite a few stores in Vermont right now, and we talked to them. They do not want unit pricing to apply to convenience or any other stores. And so they they they came into the house and asked for that. They testified with the Vermont Retail Grocery Association, but I wasn't in there to listen. So I don't I don't know if it was just Stewart asking for it or if the Vermont Retail Grocery Association has asked for it. That would be something new. Convenience stores have never banned exempt from unit pricing. They they have an, you know, they have an argument to make. It's different when you're buying free things when than when you have a grocery cart full of things in terms of being able to price check at the register. Our position was we didn't we didn't we're not changing that. We we think that it's reasonable for convenience stores to comply, but it's a it's a legitimate, you know, policy discussion. Well, what what is a legitimate a legitimate argument for them for not wanting to do it? Expense. I think they just you know, and that is kind of our position is that, yes, it might there might be some first startup cost, but then once you have it, it shouldn't shouldn't be too onerous. But to that, it it is certainly an expense. And if you don't have electronic shelf tags, and I don't think any convenience stores do now, it is hard to keep up with the prices on the shelf, although you have to do that anyway for the sales price. So the question is, you know, how much harder is the unit price? But they can we we have talked to them about that, and what we said is we're happy to give you all the we're happy to agree to all the lead in time that you need to to bring in if you wanna delay implementation of the unit pricing for for a year or something like that. We're we just wanna get the lot right

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Right.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: And and be able and and sort of the catch, though, every unit pricing has been required. We have not surveilled that. We do not do inspections for that, and we're complaint based for unit pricing, for retail pricing, for accurate pricing. We do a lot of inspections. We stop by convenience stores, grocery stores, all types of stores to make sure their prices are right. We don't, we have not historically really had the capacity to do unit pricing scans, although if someone complains about it, we will go and we'll take action. We do get some complaints. I don't remember since I've been here. I don't think we've gotten any complaints about a convenience store.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: We have got complaints with grocery stores. So we do enforce it, but not as thoroughly as we do with retail pricing. So, Steve, I'm trying to picture, because I haven't seen in a supermarket, like Shaw's or wherever people shop, any electronic pricing yet.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: Think long term Explain electronic pricing. Yeah. It's just a shelf. It's it's a it's a strip, really.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: On the way out. Readout.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: It's connected, I assume, by Wi Fi. I don't I'm not sure about that, but it's just showing the exact same as cell phone.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: It's actually a live a live just like

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: Yeah. Yeah. Mean Kohl's, I would if you ever been into calls, they have digital They do. Of I've never seen

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: it in a supermarket.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: I I haven't had any. It's I haven't seen it in a supermarket yet either. I think Walmart is implementing it. I don't know if it's in Vermont stores yet, but it's going or it's going to become more and more common. I can see that it would be expensive. It's it is expensive. I think once it's and this doesn't require electronic shove to go. This doesn't require it. This just says if you have Okay. We're not yeah. Yeah. No. We're not asking people to do it. We're just saying if you're going to do it, you've gotta change prices at night, or maybe Maybe a little differently than that. I gotcha. So we because you can, you know, the price can be deceptive then, to people who are taken out of the shelf and suddenly they get there and the price has gone up and they don't look at the price and they don't know.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: So with Stewart's now, there's a number of those shops where I'm from, because it's a New York based, they can just say a bottle of Coke at such and such a price. They don't have to say per unit, this is how we figured out the price for you?

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: Under the law, they're supposed to have a unit price. Correct.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: Maybe I just don't notice.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: Well, may not be doing it either, I'm not sure. They're supposed to, but as mentioned, we have not been actively enforcing it, and the part reason we want to correct this, why it's poorly written right now, it's hard to enforce, it's hard to understand, so we, it should be clarified so people better understand exactly what they're required to do. Like right now, for unit pricing, it lists a bunch of commodities instead of just kinda covering everything. It lists, like, aluminum foil, and then we have a rule that also it's supposed to be things that you that you buy and then use at the house. It's not supposed to cover everything, but it's consumer commodities, which is defined in here and better defined than it was. I could see

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: it for meat, so much a pound kind of thing, but I'm not sure a consumer would be any more informed with a can of soda than Chips, chips are good. You go up and you Yeah,

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: yeah. It's 6.99 for the bag, you look, it's 5 ounces.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: And then it's 6.99 for a 10 ounce bag. I get it a price, yeah.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: She paid it. Okay. I'll my wife that, right before she's doing it. The last time. She can watch this.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: Yeah, great.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: There's another honor moment. If

[John Ramsey, Executive Director, Center for an Agricultural Economy]: he's not here tomorrow, you'll

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We'll be looking for him in section two. He's the waist pit. Yeah.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: That was how I do the script.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: Okay. I guess I'm Okay.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So we go are we good with section three for now for the the overviews of where we're And I think that just gets us to the end of the bill.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: If you wanna talk to our we have a couple of experts who can We'll every question you have in the world about convenience.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: A little time on that one

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: as well. But it's I think that really the only issue the only issue anyone has raised is whether or not convenience stores should be subject to unit price. They are currently, this would include them, at least stewards would prefer they're not. Well, we've got others in that might echo that, maybe pay attention

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: to it.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: Yeah, or at least assess, you know, what are the actual costs and what are the benefits, you know, are there, one of the things that we thought about is there are, you know, some people go into a convenience store just for a Coke, but there's also some places where the only thing around is a dollar store or the only thing around is a convenience store, and some people do their actual shopping at those stores. So for those folks, you know, maybe looking at the brand and seeing which is a better deal, might have some really utility, or even a bag of garbage bags. You get a big box with five bags in it, but you get a smaller box with 30, can't necessarily tell that easily Yeah. Without reading the label or looking at the unit price. So there are some you know, there are definitely some continued consumer advantages. It's true. It's different when you're buying few items versus when you're buying 300,

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: but yeah.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: So that's it for that. Okay. Move to the next. Okay. So H739, Haribaugh. Thank you. So Steve Dwinell, who's our, you know, the director of our plant industry division will be in on Friday, and he could answer a lot more technical questions than I can on this, but we never took a we've worked closely with the House Ag Committee on this bill. We never took a musician on it. We're we're neutral on it for a lot of reasons, but it's the thing well, paraquat is not very much used in Vermont. It is heavily used in some places. You do not have a lot of usage in Vermont. However, there are some fruit orchards that are used in.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: And apples. Yeah, apples, strawberries. I've heard fruit trees.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We got one farmer that wants to come in, and he says that it was very, and I think it be on Friday, and he said it was very successful at getting rid of the sister plant on the strawberries. So the supper's off of the main plant itself. Okay. So that's all that I know about.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: Okay. So we've heard that it is very helpful, especially for new trees and orchards when they're when they're first planted and they're growing.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Does it make it bitter for the deer? Maybe.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: And and

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: its issue is not really an environmental concern, it's a human health concern. Right. So Paraquat is, if you ingest even a small amount of it, you die. And so it's a restricted use, you have to be very careful with how you use it, but those, it's the worker plus bystanders sort of human health concerns are the driver for the concerns of it. The EPA has consistently registered it since, I think, 1964. The EPA was very comfortable, I mean, it's heavily regulated because of its date there, so it's it's much more regulated than most pesticides, but EPA has consistently supported it as a reasonable use. In 2024 or 'five, I forget which now, the principal, Syngenta is the principal manufacturer, there's others, but they support some of the products. They shared some information that suggests a higher level of volatilization that was known, and what that means is when you use it, it can become a gas more quickly than they thought, and so that means it can also be inhaled more easily than thought, that's sort of a human health concern. So EPA is going through more tests now based on that information, but that's going to take some time for them to decide, you know, what, if anything, should be different about Paraguat. But big tipping point for us, at least in our thinking about it, is that Syngenta told us that they are going to stop supporting Gramoxone, which is their version of Paraguay at the end of this year. So they're no longer going to register in Vermont, sell it in Vermont, they're not going to be supplying it in Vermont. There are some other six or seven other companies that might, that could, there's very limited use by those companies now, we don't know what they're going to do. They do currently register products, but

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Of course, if there's a hole created, they could probably come in.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: They may. They may, but DCA is also requesting a lot more information about Paraguay because of that new information about the volatization, and we're not sure whether those six or so Syngenta's pulling out, and we're not sure whether those other six or seven companies are going to even try to justify, they may or they may not. But so but for us, again, we're neutral on the bill, but given what Sagenta said and given the concerns and given the ongoing EPA study, we thought that this bill was at least a reasonable position to take and that you can continue using stores, continue using Paraguay until 11/01/2030, and the reason for November 1 is kind of to catch the season, so, you know, catch that fruit growing season, and that, but it would have to be through a written permit issued by the agency, and the permit would specify what you can use it on, how you can use it on. So there is some, and also, the Agricultural Innovation Board is tasked with studying what may be acceptable substitutes so that we can provide, so the AIE can provide that information to farmers to sort of evaluate what else is out there. It's a reasonable compromise approach. We're always very reluctant about bans just because we don't want to take tools out of the toolbox. Know, farmers have to compete with everyone else. EPA is the expert on pesticides. We don't have the scientists to do the work, so we, if we're not relying on EPA, it's pretty tricky, and there's a lot of pressure always to ban pesticides, period. So we're, you know, we're nervous about the idea that you should start being this, that, this, that, this, that, whether or not this, you know, arguing that the science justifies it when the science is almost always at least contradictory, when EPA is charged with that is saying it's safe. So, it's a slippery slope, which is not the best reason not to do something, but we are cautious about the idea that you just start banning things, which federally is allowed and everyone else can use. In this particular case, there are other herbicides that can be used. It is very dangerous to people if not used appropriately, and so I think it's a reason to measure, but, and we didn't, we have not taken a position because we do generally, are generally conservative on bans, that we would rather have different approaches, but we didn't object to this either. We didn't go in and ask the House not to do this, and we do, and it's very important that we have good relationships with both of our committees, and we know there are different interests and different concerns, and we do think it's a reasoned measure. So I don't know if you have any. Steve can answer all of that.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I don't wanna get into the full blown testimony, but just a couple thoughts in my head. One is, do we know how many farmers in Vermont?

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: Do you know? We'll certainly find on Friday. Don't have a way of of knowing that. We Steve can tell you what we do have there's companies have to report usage, and

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: we do have Yeah. We're curious about usage amount as well, how many I

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: think it's dealers, actually, that have to report it. So we don't that doesn't mean we know which farmers are using it, but we do know or supposed to know how many gallons have been used. Yeah. And it has been limited, which is one of the reasons we're, again, not overly concerned. If it was in widespread use, that would raise more concerns for us, but there are some big orchards that use it and think it's very effective. So it's not trying to downplay the issue, but without Syngenta supporting it anymore, it seems likely that this is who knows what will happen, but there's probably a change on the horizon.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: Yes. So for me, even a more fundamental question is, has there been a problem? In other words, we oftentimes in this building enact legislation that there's been an issue or a problem, and I haven't heard word one about this. How, and I don't expect you to talk policy, but I'm just, what brought about this sudden, the same thing I likened to Neonics three, four years ago, all of a sudden was a big deal.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: Yeah, and I would not like it to I mean, it's the same issue with Neonics, but I think there are this is known Paraquat is known to harm people, and it has. As I understand it, about one or two people a year mistakenly drink it because people put it in different containers around the farm and use it, so people put it in a drinking container, and one or two people die, apparently, a year. That's from EPA's website, said that. People people Is country or state? It's a country. Okay. Not our one, no, no, no. I'm not aware of anyone being lethally harmed by paraquat in Vermont from consumption. There are a lot of lawsuits all over the country.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Many people think it causes Parkinson's. Well, Michael Gay Fox Foundation is pushing it hard.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: Yeah. Folks in the room, you know, represent them. So, you know, concerns for that as well. Yeah, and that's one of the, the EPA determined that it does not cause Parkinson's, but there's other science studies that say it does, and now the EPA is looking at the different volatilization rate, sort of reevaluating. Volatization, the risk is direct and then it can be potentially inhaled, so that's different than the direct contact. So there are a lot of lawsuits, and you're right about the foundation supporting this thing, So I think, you know, the same ish, Neonix was more of an environmental claim as human health concern, and Neonix, the difference there too is it's on all of our seed, or almost all of our seed, it's not organic, so it's a much more widespread issue. So this committee,

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: what we've always done is I've told the folks that are representing the foundation and everything, we're gonna take testimony on each side of this and we're gonna listen closely, and I do, I you have some of these for what Senator Collamore said about, yeah, what's the problem and all of that stuff. So I really do wanna, I really do wanna listen to this one closely and I wanna make, I want to be with the team to be as a committee, the right decision. Yeah, so we'll be talking about this stuff as well. I will ask this and not to in any way disparage what the House has done for work. What else have they done? I mean, we have a bill coming in, miscellaneous, having exceptions for agriculture. I heard that's making its way across the floor now or what have you? Or I think that

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: has third reading to Third reading? Yesterday or today. That will be yes. You'll see you'll be seeing the municipal exemption language. Oh. I certainly didn't pay attention to everything they were working on, but they had a

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: rodenticide bill. Pretty good. One's not gonna make it.

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: They spent a lot of time on that one, that one did not pass. We worked, that was another sort of pesticide potential ban or restriction that would not pass. They worked on, they had a minimum wage bill for farm workers they spent quite a lot of time on, that didn't pass. They worked a lot on baby food issue, which I was not particularly paying close attention to because it wasn't really us, but that, I think, I don't think that, they may have passed something on than that, but I think it still had more committees to go through the last night, you know, of it, so I'm not sure. And then funding recommendations. They did, this, I'd like the committee to know this, they, so in the House budget and the big bill, you all passed language to this committee to take away the LFO and MFOPs for farms, and then appropriations removed it.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Butchered it. Yeah. But I think in fairness, if I take the chair at his word, which I am willing to do, they only did that because they're gonna discuss it further, and I really do expect that they'll probably end up supporting that, especially because the governor did did both, but, we shall see. Well, in the house version of

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: the big bill, the money is there to replace the lost fees. So we're hoping that the House Ag Committee will put your language back in Right. So that we can still have that language. So that's great if you can Right.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I do I do expect that we'll probably end up getting that across the finish line. Again, I'm taking the chair as word, and I did ask him not only one to one, but on the the on the senate floor in itself as well. So as we reported our bill out. So yeah. I have something else I was gonna ask you and I forgot. Just want to, the committee would pick our brain tumor a little bit, maybe tell Steve about some of the other things that, if we think that anything else that we're going to add to the bill. Some of the things that we've talked about that not a lot of people know, current use farm structures that did make the deadlines of their taxes. We're going to have some time with, we're going talk about current use for equine, some of the things as far as that. We have a, we're going to spend a little time about tax exemptions for horse horseback trucking and trailers. We're gonna spend a little time on that. What am I missing, guys?

[Steven Collier, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets]: I don't think you hit him. You hit the equal. Yeah, you did. And you have tax department coming in. Tax department coming in.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We have A and R coming in as well. Various issues, a lot to do with bedside manner. So yeah. So other than that, anybody? Okay. Enough. Well, I senator Andrew wants to talk about something other stuff about stuff. Stuff. Will I will I him will up. Thank you. I appreciate it. Do any anything else, for, Steve the Otter? Committee, everybody else in the room okay for right now? Okay. Unless there's any more,