Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Good morning. It's Wednesday, March 11. We are a few days away from crossover. We're still working diligently on our miscellaneous bill, S-three 23. We are just trying to tie up some loose ends, just trying to see what can make the bill. We spent a lot of time talking about Section 10, which is now in the new language of what we have with the printed off version of draft number 2.1 in section nine. We're gonna spend some time with Ledge Council this morning, and we're just trying to figure out if this bill, if this section can make the bill or not. I'm not saying it's the last gasp, but it's getting close. So we've asked Ellen to come in and tell us what we know so far and whether we have any questions about it. And I think probably we will know by the end of today where we stand with this section. Ellen, floor is yours.

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Thank you. Ellen J. Kotzky, Office of Legislative Counsel. So S. Three twenty three, draft 2.1. The section nine is on page 14. And I don't think it has changed since the last time that I was here. How would you like me to start?

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Do want me to walk

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: you Well, can we just go down through it, just so the committee can be refreshed with it, and then when we're done with it, yeah, we'll probably have some discussions with it.

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: And is it okay if we have questions that we're going down through? Can we interrupt you?

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. So, Amanda, if want move right away. Yeah. Yeah.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: I just oh, so what I understand is that this section came from or is the same as h six seven seven that's in the house. Do you know if it's the exact same language? I You didn't prepare for that.

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right. I did I believe so. Okay.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: And I believe so too.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: That chair would go. Okay.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I believe so too. Thanks. Now listen guys, let's tear this thing apart. Okay? So we gotta make a decision about whether this is gonna make it or not. And so I want to try to make a decision on this today.

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Section nine is amending 30 BSA Section two forty eight, which is the permanent process that the PUC conducts for new gas and electric generation facilities. So, any new gas or electric facilities that meet the definition in here need a certificate of public good from the PUC, which is what we call their sort of land use permit and electric generation permit. So, subsection A to start describes a few pieces of what goes into the process, including some of the requirements of the agencies. So the first change to this language is on page 15. This is adding that in addition to the Agency of Natural Resources, on page 15, line 12. In addition to the Agency of Natural Resources, which is always a required party in a PUC permit proceeding, it's adding that the agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets also shall appear as a party. This will be for any of the proceedings under this section. And so currently, you can see in the language that's actually right below that in subsection F. Currently in the statute, the agency of agriculture is an optional party. They get notice of the permits when they are submitted, but for proceedings on electric generation facilities greater than 500 kilowatts or an energy storage facility greater than one megawatt, they are already required to be a party. And so, the change that's being proposed here is that right now, only in the cases described here, the 500 megawatts or more, or one megawatt of energy storage, if there's pragmatic soils on the site, the agency is already a required party, but this is adding for all other proceedings that the Agency of Agriculture be a party that participates.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: So as I recall, Attorney Collier indicated that it might not be necessary to have them be a partner in the other cases, if you will. In other words, it's for larger projects that are already required to be a party, and if I'm mischaracterizing what he said, I apologize, but I thought he said they really didn't care about being part of it. How about

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes, well I think

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: The new thing.

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: At least the first part of what you said I know is true. They are already required. They're the larger ones, and this would be required additional.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Meeting what I heard. Think you're accurate. What's the committee want to do? I want go down through here, so they're going to pass this bill, and then get it to where you want to always go, and then make a decision about where where it continues because it does or not. So as we go, let's just fix the language the way that we could be happy with or keep it the same. Anything any thought process on that. Well, you could split the difference in instead of gel, put main.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Did you say that it was already main?

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. It is already underlying, because they do get notice of all of the conditions. Sure.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Like that. I'll make sure you guys are good with that.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: You wanna take that now?

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I wanna say May. May. May. And if there already are, then

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: you're gonna have to Where do about the does May go in? So After Boot and Maritzia, May appear? That's what I was thinking. Does that change anything further down?

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, so actually on page 16 on 97, so it says currently, in a proceeding other than the one described above, that an agency shall have the right to appear in court. So you already have that option.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Which, this seems pretty duplicative then. Yeah, sure.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I don't know why.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Just strike out. Strike it out then, because that's what he asked. He said that might, if we have to be there for every project, that might hurt our man, because I can't remember.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I'm good. That's good with that. I'll take the, ahead.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Mine will and the Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets out, and then it would re age natural resources shall appear as put back in a party. I'm sorry, I want to take it one more time, Brian. Sure. So line 12. Take out the underlying portion and the Agency of Agriculture, Food, and Markets, and take out Part E's and make it singular, which would So you can put it back in Go back to where current statute. Yeah. It may be a small change, but I did remember Steve saying that. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So, the next changes to this section are, start on page 17. And so, this is adding From one of the permit processes, the Glumid Advising Scope, it spells out specifically as part of the application that the applicant has to note the presence and total acreage of primary agricultural soils, and so it's added here primary, secondary, and local importance agricultural soils as defined in 6001, and by the Natural Resources Conservation Service, and I think this language is added in one other part of this bill, but currently the definition in 6001 does already say that primary agricultural soils include not just the most prime soils, but these other soils of statewide importance, and so I don't I don't think this And it also does reference sorry, I'm sorry, I'm looking for the definition here, but it also does reference those soils as mapped by the NRCS, and so I don't think you need this language, I think it's already included, But the definition in 6001 does include important farmland soils mapped by the NRCS as determined to have a rating of prime, statewide, or of local importance by the NRCS.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: What's that second here?

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, so I

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Yes, I'm sorry to jump in, but I wanted to cover a couple of things. You wanted just to make sure, you didn't draft that language, right?

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No, it was requested by

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: the sponsor. Okay, and no one alleged counts a draft of that. I don't. So you're about to go into about secondary, so go ahead.

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Sure. I didn't find that the NRCS actually mapped secondary soils, so I don't know that that's part of their classification system, and I am not an expert on agricultural soils, so I don't know that it belongs there.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I'd be fine with that.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Push was to keep them out

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: of dry back soils and a lot of solely use the water and then start including other soils when our council says that we don't know if we have anything in 6001 that's going to back itself.

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And I do think the definition in 6001 is broad enough that it addresses not only the primary, but also those of local and statewide importance. Great.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Alright, so should I be able to add that?

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: I just wanna point out, I mentioned PH six, seven, seven. So secondary agricultural soils, those isn't defined anywhere. Yeah. And so that does that's not a as far as I can tell, that's not an agricultural soil classification in any way. Okay. But the title of the bill, it's six seventy seven, was an Accurately Primary and Secondary Multiple Agricultural Soils. That's a change

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: of title, I would say.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Well, mean, the title misunderstands agricultural soils, which that was a little like a big red flag for me. That's why I've been really skeptical of this from the beginning. Okay. But I'm glad the rate strike that. Yep. Unethical. So everybody good? That's the VSA six zero zero, that already says, do we even need to have underlined, did we buy the Natural Resources and Conservation Service? Doesn't it say it right there and above?

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It does. So I think you can also

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We're done. Okay, let's strike it

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: up here.

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It's definition number 19, if anyone that's Oh, I'm sorry, 15. It's definition 15 in 6,001, if anyone wants

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: to look at that.

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So, the next change is on page 18, or the next piece of the assignment is on page 18. So, this has moved into another part of the statute. Subsection B of two forty eight lays out the criteria that the PUC reviews, and that has to be part of the applicant's application. So, it lists the criteria that they have to evaluate. Currently, subdivision B2 already requires that an applicant do an assessment of whether or not the project will meet present and future demand for electric service or otherwise provide a more cost effective manner through energy conservation programs and measures. They have to look at lease cost integrated planning under Section two eighteen, and then look at the environmental costs of the system and the economic costs of the system. This is adding new language on page 18 in subdivision B about they also have to use a remote licensed engineering firm approved by the Department of Environmental Conservation to perform a full spectrum audit of energy payback time and carbon dioxide emissions at the cost of the applicant. The audit shall include a cradle to grave calculation, including resource extraction, mining, and procurement, production, manufacturing, and transportation, deployment and disposal of all technologies required, including solar panels, concrete, footings, transformers, and batteries, forest ecosystem destruction, foregoing twenty five years of agricultural crops and the construction of landscaping for the project, so construction and landscaping. This subsection B is specific to solar projects, and so this will be an extra set of analyses that they'll have to submit as part of their application.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: You have to do it in other forms, don't think it's just asking too much. Once they have a formula, it's just gonna be punching through unless they change panel size. Do we think it's probably not a question for Alan, but do we know if an engineering firm would be able to make an estimate for twenty five years in agricultural for jobs? I don't think it would be an engineering firm. But they they're the ones

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: after the audit, and it has to be saluted because No.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: I'm just saying that's a that's a good point. Well, thanks. I know you're surprise. I'm here's

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: what the argument's been, that that is onus and uncalled for, And I see it as you

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: do

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: the study once, everybody's gonna copy a lot of the same language, so a lot of the same findings, a lot of everything that they've done. They're just gonna say, okay, we've done, we did that study, here it is, Whatever. I mean, I think there's gonna be a lot of that same study that they have to copy and paste to go in there, and then they're gonna have to get sites specific as they go on some other stuff. I think that they probably know all that information. I'm bothered that it says specifically a Vermont based engineering firm, and they've already

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: contracted Accredited. How about an Accredited? Yeah, says License. Yeah, Accredited License rather than a Vermont. Doesn't matter to use the main event.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: They've already got people on staff to do that. Again, this isn't to punish these folks that wanna do these solo projects. I don't wanna seem like that we are. Our goal is to stay off our prime ag lands. I do. But in the sense that you're gonna do that, a lot of these companies are making claims about what they're doing. I think they should be ready to verify their claims. If they're saying it, they should prove it. I can't disagree with them.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: But I think, rather than the Vermont, an accredited engineer firm, there's, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's that, like you said, big companies will have engineers and We didn't hear from engineers, did we? And they do a cost analysis when they start the project anyway. Is it worth

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: them doing it? Think they know when they buy these panels. I think the panel companies know what their lifespan is, what it is. I think they have all that information anyways. I really, really do. But again, we're here as a committee and I want 100% agreement about what we're gonna say as far as our language if we can. So if somebody's got a concern about it, speak up. You have

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: to go. I have a concern about this. And unfortunately, lot of it's because I don't think I know about each of these different things and what the engineering firm would need to do. Okay. But we heard of the impact that I think it was this specifically would have on solar cell prevent. They said around. Oh, no. That's not what they said. They said basically that this that this would be something that's already been done before and the counter to that as well, then you can just plug and plug and play. But my thought on that was, well, that's why I was doing it anyways. I don't know if it's already done. I don't know if you I don't know what it looks like to have a cradle to grade calculation for going really by here in the agricultural process. Well, know, like, in aggregate. I mean, I mean, you come in to do, say, drought pick, that you gotta calculate an end bond for the end result that they don't just leave a big hole in the ground or a big cliff for what would have happened if somebody if a farm was on it. If if you go through Act 50 to get to do aggregate, gravel, ledge, you know? No. But I'm, like, do you have to figure out if you use this piece of land for some other industry, you have to figure out the entire critical grade cost analysis of it that other industry had stuck up. I would say not that, but if you were gonna put in an industry building, this was over thirty years ago, we're doing the Bristol, they had to do a traffic study. What, you know, how big the impact was gonna be, you know, the building's gonna stay there probably When it's there, Meaning not Yep. Meaning the thing that's there, not some hypothetical other thing. No. You haven't built it yet. You gotta give all this information before you build it. So Right. That that would be there. So Okay. But this is if a farm were on this where the solar farm's going, we've gotta say, what would happen over twenty five years if that farm is on? And I don't know how you can Oh, you can't calculate crops in that. Yeah. Don't think they should have to. I guess, to your point I mean, especially with the weather events, it's crazy. It's just a, you're surmising. You know, I mean, you don't really know. It's a hypothesis or Are a different

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: you being punitive to the process? Yeah, yeah. I wanna be punitive to a process, I but I mean, I get.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: So is that something that just could come out, that sense of including resource extraction? Resource extraction, so that would be, you know, you have that biography. Create a creative calculation, including resource extraction, binding, production, or the production manufacturing. That's easy enough. What you're saying Which is easy. What it's gonna roughly cost, you can project that, hey, if I tear this down today, here is the dismantling charge as of today, then if we're doing it 25 from now, we had 3% or 4% yearly for Inflation. Inflation. Inflation. So yes, you can give a rough estimate to That would be if it costs $10,000 today, twenty five years from now, our projected cost would be, you know, $12.50. And how does that help farms? Don't think it helps farms. I think what they were asking here is that you're saying, I'm coming in, putting in this solar farm, and we're gonna reap benefits that is the money we are spending to put this field in, are we gonna actually make money? And I'll give you an example. I know a solar farm that went in and it was on state land, up by an airbase, and it's like, Is this ever gonna pay for itself? And the commander's like, Well, sometimes it's not about the cops, it's about what looks this. This is saying, believe, that you say this is all good, but say it costs a million dollars to put it in, and it only ends up generating a million dollars worth of power out, was it worth doing the project to begin with? Isn't that capitalism? Isn't it Yeah. It's when you're when you're saying Isn't that the question? Right. But in this case, it is like, you're telling with all the, if there wasn't so many incentives in solar, they probably would not be building as much because of the incentives. And is it right to lose, one, for the farmer, so if the farmer wants to put it in, well, you know, it's hard for me to say no because it is therapeutic. And also I have to say this is better than censorship, right? Yes, And does this, and this is the question, sorry I wasn't here, Oh, I

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: wanna I want I want this to continue. I wanna figure it out.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: So we heard about a little bit about what's called agrivoltaics, you know, where solar farms and agriculture work together. Does this impact that? Does this prevent that? I don't know. I mean, does this make that completely impossible for for a farmer who wants to go to the supermarket? Well, feed they use the sheep, if you will, or I don't know about I think you could do different things. Don't know. I heard that He was in a different context. Mike Fernandez, I think, is just such a. He's the director down there. He but I heard hearing from him about, you know, just the possibilities of agriculture. That was one of the things we talked about. But anyway, you asked if I I have a I have a problem with that. Unfortunately, lot of it is I I don't like having just the the reason I have a problem. That I have a lot

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: more Get to some language so we can all agree. It's really down to you two kind of about where where where it can be, and then we'll wait in as we go. I mean, I don't want to have any part of this. Yeah. Where we can't defend it, if any one of those will sort of

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: have to report it. And I think what the public wants, like up in Lowell, when they came in and said, you know, basically, buy the land. He's gonna be able to do this if he wants, because if the PUC doesn't see a reason, they're not So what really did they have other than just saying, is this project, you're doing this for the tax benefit for the, you know, for for capital, it's a free will. But are you actually are you making it, are you making the money out of the power or are you making the money from the tax benefit? From if the incentive wasn't there, would you do it? It's like, I'm not gonna build a big building out here if I don't have people fill it in there. So if you make the person that is the industry that's coming in answer that question, I don't think that's asking too much. Think that's being very fair to the community, to the farmer, to everybody to say, every energy generator do it. Actually, have every business do it. Which most do. Yeah. Want try to get these specific things. Yeah. I don't think I could be you. I think it just ends up sober. Don't see

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: the I don't I don't see see problem. So let's just take it from line six. Let's say, With respect to a solar energy generation facility, to meet this criterion, a Vermont licensed engineering firm approved by the Department of Environmental Conservation shall perform a full spectrum audit of energy payback, time, and carbon dioxide emission at the cost of the application. I'm gonna play the devil's advocate. Why isn't that enough?

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: To Steve's point, what would be expected, required of any other type of business that was going to do something like this? Has nothing to do with solar, just put a gravel pit in, or We should say they should have to go through Act two fifty. That your PCUC doesn't have to decision that it's Act two fifty because their structure's going up, and you're gonna start eating the same computer, the same, you know, and they do to some women, but they don't get as scrutinized as bad as Act 50 would. Act two fifty kills a lot of gun violence. Section two forty eight is for all other gun violence. I

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: apologize. I have another Can we get

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: a third? Rest of life.

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So, I just wanted to make sure There's only one other piece of this.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Let's go.

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Let's go. On the top of page 19, again, there's the reference to soils of statewide importance, or local importance being added, and the reference to the NRCS. Again, I don't necessarily think you need that. But then, the rest of the language here is adding that the siting of a facility or group of facilities, adjacent or interrelated facilities, such that facilities preclude the tilling of soil, seeding, growing, or harvesting of agricultural crops on greater than five acres of climax soils shall be considered undue and not a public good.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I think we have all agreed that we want to strike that.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Well, we may not want to, but I think it's a wise choice to do. Because I think it would end up going somewhere else. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they rest. That whole underlying paragraph there?

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I would say to Anything about the five acres, yes.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Three to 11.

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I have one small piece of information to give to one of your earlier questions and a couple other of my bills. Have references to licensed professional engineering firms. I don't know if those engineering firms are actually accredited. I know they are licensed. So if you'd like to change I that

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: wanna language get to that to where it doesn't make somebody think that they have to use just the Vermont. They might have somebody in house, and as long as they're credentialed to operate within the state, they would be fine. Is that it?

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I think, yeah, potentially if you just strike the word Vermont, could say licensed engineering or licensed professional engineering. Yes.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: All right. So now it's really getting this paragraph that we're all familiar with, is what I mean.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I think we can get there. So let's just Yeah. Got a, What time is was Arthur supposed to be on?

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: 09:30? 09:30. Yes.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. So let's let's jump to Arthur.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: He's done.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Are you guys good with that? Yeah.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: For a minute? And then

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: we can we get back to Did

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: you say he's not? Is he? He's not on yet.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. You wanna take a five minute break before Arthur comes? Sure. Okay. Let's take a five minute, Alan.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Yes. Thank

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: you very much.

[Ellen J. Kotzky (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Thank you. Please let me know if you need anything.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We will. We thank you very much.

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Very, very helpful. Yeah. Thank

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Let's take a five minute break before Arndra comes on, and then we'll talk talk with them, and

[Rep. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: then we'll get back to it.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: And we might be able to we might