Meetings
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[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Council Bradley Showman. Are going to go down through as much of the bill that we can. Well, hopefully Senator Collamore will be back shortly, and he will have some comments. And if you guys think that we could jump to something different that we could talk about, certainly could, Rob, we could get to your part of it, the bill with the language that we had. I'm gonna get my list out about where we're at here.
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Yeah. Which one is that?
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Was it oh, excuse me.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: All good. It was let's see here. Not
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: sharing my screen. So, Senator Plunkett, you sent me an email.
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Yes. About donated food crops. It would have to go into, I think, two sections. I was hoping you'd be able to fold it in to see how it would look.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: And I don't see a problem with that. However, I did infer with Kirby before and haven't heard back. I don't foresee that being an issue, but I wanna make sure that it doesn't
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: have some attached language here. I just wanna make sure on February 23 to government entity, nonprofits, a post for war veterans, a lodge, a federally so anyways, we have that. Okay.
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Really, Bradley, the question I had was so there was the three which sections? Let me pull up the email. Section three was one of them. And the other oh, yes. Section three was the one that refers to the RAPs regarding the municipal zoning. And the question was really whether or not that definition had to be there as well because donated is added to that.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: I see. I see.
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: And the other section is.
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Sorry. One second. So the the main section we were talking about with this was section seven with the agricultural land definition, which is what the the language that Kirby gave us. I see. Other section was adding to in section three to section three of the RAPs. This is page five of the bill is introduced line 11. We're adding or donation into the Yeah. Yes. Definition is whether whether we need it there as well.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. I I will share my screen and, yes, we can put it there. I thought you were asking for an amendment to that section. But I have a note here. So we're talking here.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Right.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: And yes, yes, we can add that. What's what page? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. We are on page Page five. Five. Okay. Yeah. Line 11. Sorry about that. I got
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: No. We're both we're all of us. We we got thrown off our game a little bit with a a meeting this morning. So
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: But yes, I actually have a previous note from the committee saying that he wanted language like that and Kirby has since drafted that language and he did a downbender. Okay. So what broadly speaking, if at least, what I plan to do was essentially depending on the extent of the revisions to 03/23, a strike all, and then just revise and just having our revisions in the amendment. And so what I'll do is I'll take notes from the committee and prepare that and get back to you as soon as I can. Okay.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Rob, you good with all that? Yes. Okay. Well, just hope open to center, Collamore. We'll be there right back here. Yeah. So we really can't do a whole bunch on Section 6 right now or section 10. Right? Those are pretty hot sections right there. Let's just go down through, let's start on Section 11. Okay. And let's just make sure that we're all good with those sections. I think we have eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, 15 through twenty, twenty one, 22, 23, 24. I think that I would just like to make sure that the committee, just going down through those, I think we could just check those off with the language that's there and just say that we're good to go and just check those off.
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: On section For some reason, think as Bill introduced, the three twenty three, right?
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes, is. And so section 11 starts on page 23 and line nine.
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Well, that's when we have some most of pages. Don't know I know you. Over with interviews. Let's see if I can there is 45. Oh, now
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: And, Russ, did you just say eleven through 24? I think
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: it was 11 through 24.
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Okay, yeah, those I'm definitely good with. 25, I don't know if we were gonna be okay with I
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: think we're gonna not do 25. I don't think we're I gonna have the time to do just think it's, know, opens up a bigger question as far as that. Think it probably, it was a committee's permission. I think we're just gonna exit right off of that. What's that one?
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: It's a floor grading study. Yeah, yeah.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Keep watching it outside. So, guys, eleven through twenty four with, for Bradley, we're good with all that language, correct? There's nothing in there that we're gonna have to change.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay, yes, 11 through 24, correct. Sections 11. If I may.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah, please.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: So for the V cap and beta sections, earlier, center equals can have to meet with Jennifer and beta, and we've been talking about just a handful of technical corrections.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yep.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Those are not substantive corrections Right. That I have seen. And so I plan to add those in. Yep. A couple of them are just changes to other statutes that refer to the where we're moving things and a couple of definitions.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Michael Chernan taught me a long time ago is to get the language right and then redo it one last time.
[Steve Collamore (Vermont Agency of Agriculture)]: Okay, sounds
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: sounds great. We'll, yep, we'll grab And so yes, and thank you for that, Mr. Council. We're going to X off Section 25. That is, we're out of there, so let's turn back over. I just want to leave one to three alone just for a second. I really would like to call more in here. Sections four and five, counsel, we are not going to do Okay. Sections four and five. Everybody in agreement with that one? That was the Yes. Promote income, capital gains, and all of that. That was gonna cause that section to I I just it was it's too complicated for us at this time. And it's going to involve a lot of tax policies that we'd have to tip over to finance, and it's just not gonna make it through. It's bigger it's bigger things than what we can do. Yeah. I I wanna make sure I don't want anybody nodding their head yes. Senator Plunkett, you good with that? No. Agree with that. Yep. I'm good
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: with that.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. You're good with that? Okay. Section six, we're just gonna have to sit right down and
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: you know I think with that, when we add the word war, that sounds almost good.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: K. Yeah. Well, we're we're gonna spend some Okay. Spend some time on section six.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Page? Section six starts on page 12, line 16. The changes lead over to page 13, up toward the top, and I will get that on my screen as well.
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Right, everybody seemed to, yeah. If you because I can't just poke. And it was meant for nonstop So
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: we're gonna unstrike the 50% and that's what we're gonna do? Yes. Okay. So that's gonna be on page 12, line 18.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Well, the strike was more than 50%.
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: 51%. Right.
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Yeah. That'll have to be rewritten
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: because it
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: was switched from affirmative to a negative.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: I may.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Josh, at least every time. Just jump in.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: So what I heard in the testimony yesterday was that you wanted to have it more than 50%. No, you're right. Gosh. You wanted both. You wanted the 50% and the 250,000 You also wanted the $250,000 threshold to adjust for inflation. Yeah, yes, absolutely. Yeah. And I was thinking about this, you know, kinda last night as well. I mean, there's once the the LERB has the their information because they're gonna then we can go back. We can we can amend it and and change it. So I did that one when asked about where do we get the 250,000. The benchmark was that just to include more, then we're currently wanting to do more research and the nerve is spearheading that. Once they come back, we'll have some more data, more information to go back.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah, just to talk about that a little bit more, because we talked about that $2.50, nobody could really say it wasn't the right or wrong number, they just wanted to know why that number was there, and I think that if we put a just for inflation, and I agree with each other, it's open for broader discussion if they don't find that that number's sufficient. But nobody could say that it was a bad number. They just wanted to know how we got to it.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: If it's brought up, it'll.
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: If I may, Bradley, do you happen to know what inflation index would be appropriate for these products? I
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: did a hair research on that and there's a few. And so that is something I need to look into more and advise you folks accordingly next time I see you. Okay. And
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: with that, Bradley, take your best choice.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Put it in there. We're getting on crunch time. Okay. So we're gonna count on you, and we're gonna count on you to do the you know, get in there what the best opinion would be. When we review the bill one last time, can, you know, we chat about that. You can tell us what you found. Senator, just to bring you up, we, on this on this bill. We've got we've checked off 11 through 24. Bradley is going to just work on some of the language. We will go back to this bill one more time. What we checked off is 11 through 24. We're Exit 25. I'll give you time to digest that. These are all cleanups anyway. Right, they're all cleanups. We're at twenty five, turning back on the other page. We haven't gone a month through three because we wanted you in the room. Four and five were exiting. Six, we're just talking. Bradley's gonna put back in there more than 50% or the two fifty. And then on the two fifty, we're going to put inflation index on there and Bradley's going to He's do researched some of it, but he wants to look at it some more and he's just going put in what he would think would be sufficient. Then when we redo bill, When we review the bill, we'll talk to it one more time. Land definitions, number seven, was Rob's, that was a language you had worked on and we're good with that. Bradley, we'll just get it adjusted. Bradley, any questions about that? No. K. Seven eight. It's just I just don't see any path forward on farm kitchens at this point in time, so I wanna x that off.
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Okay. Good. I I agree. I was I was worried about digging into that one, but okay.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I just don't see senator, I were I you know, we we ran out of time.
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Yeah, good to-
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We have some pretty complex, things going on. Go to, let's go to one through three, now and, and let's tear this apart a little bit and probably come up with where we think we wanna be. And it's really. I mean, it's really three that we're gonna wrestle with here a little bit.
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: So we're looking at addressing point three?
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: We are looking at oh, the bill has introduced. Oh,
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: And Bradley, with section one, we had talked about language softening that. I think you had had a suggestion. Don't recall what that was.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: That is exactly right. And and so the
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Step down.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: What I'm taking out is, again, is through the intent of the general assembly. Mhmm. In line three, taking out unchecked, but leaving unintended consequences. Also adding a small finding about the right to grow food because that is the right to grow food or excuse me, the right to grow plants is a difference. It doesn't necessarily involve tapestry, but it goes beyond what we were talking about earlier. We're adding a binding there on that piece. And I think that that was it.
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Can I ask Bradley what if you're gonna delete Misconstrued, what did you substitute?
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: So it just says the task two decision reversed application of the past twenty years of law. Okay. Municipalities may So
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: you didn't mention the intent?
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: So number three is to avoid the unintended consequences of the decision that's necessary to clarify and restate that municipalities under ordinance bylaw shall not regulate. Okay. And so it's Good.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Good.
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: I think, I think as long as it's clear that we're clarifying what we thought was in place.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. Yes. And
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I'm gonna super, I'm gonna go with the two attorneys in the room. I I my intent, and I think the committee's intent, is just to not to be chastising the Supreme Court Yes. In any way, shape, or So I just wanna make sure the two attorneys in the room who live that life aren't, there's no trigger words in there that are gonna cause that looks like we're being disrespected.
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: So, I think Bradley's got it.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. I I I think that that the language that we have is is fine. And, you know, I the committee could choose to go further and just not mention Tap Street at all, and and that is the tactic that the house is taking. And just to say that, you know, it's been our intent for twenty years that the law is this, this, and here's a bill that reinstates that. You know, I think this is kind of a middle approach between what it was and and that approach. Well, let's
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: keep South Street in there. If the house is taken out, that'll just give us something to bargain with later on.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. So Okay.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: You know, that's an that's an easy one. We've been through a few of these rounds. Okay. So Okay. Rob, you okay with that?
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Yeah. No. I want it in there. Yeah.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. K. Sounds good. So are we good with one?
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Yep. Yep.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yep. Okay. Two?
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Growing plants, food, fiber, Christmas tree, and the sauna.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yep. Yep. That meets minimal threshold criteria. I mean, we have the same on on page four, line three. We have the definition of farming. We've all agreed that was good. I mean, we have the farm b, the farm structures, we thought were okay. Mhmm. C is what it is. D, poultry, same meaning. We haven't changed any of that.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: That's it.
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: So everybody good? Yep. Yeah.
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Rob? Yeah. Had we talked about changing any of that language? In
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I don't remember it, Rob. That's why I kinda was going down through it. Yeah. And Did you recall anything?
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Nothing's jumping out for me. It was more section three that was Yeah. Right. Some of the discussion.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: K. Okay. So we'll say that section two is good. Mhmm. Let's go to section three. We'll have some discussion.
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: I wish, all right, let me frame it this way. I wish I knew if it had to be that either the monetary threshold or the scheduling of Schedule F, if one of those has to be in and maybe leave the five If it's the monetary threshold, maybe leave the 5,000, but if you keep the schedule out, because you do have to file that with the federal government, the IRS, in terms of grants and that sort of thing, and that woman that was here from the The rabbitry. Yep. The rabbitry said that, again, if you have a loss, if you don't file a schedule F, you can't make a case for it. So I wanted to ask the advocates, if it comes down to it and we gotta give on one of the two, which one is more important for you? My guess is it's schedule f, but I I could be wrong.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So here's kinda where I'm at with a lot of that, and I'm, again, I'm all over the place and I want you guys to be very frank. I want everybody to be happy with where we end up. I just think that this is an opportunity to get rid of maybe some of the nuisance that could be created to bring us back into this situation again. If you want to
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: be a real farmer, you have to be
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: a real farmer sometimes. You have to do the things that you have to do the things I don't know why you would be in the farming business and not have a schedule out. I don't understand why you would not have a schedule out. It protects you voluntarily from losses to profits to everything to why you wouldn't want to do that.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: The only reason is you're trying to circumvent the system.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I can't feel that a little bit. The same with the two to five. But again, I'm just talking. I think the two to five is if you're in this business and you're not near that $5,000 mark, are you really farming? Are you really are because they're already protected under their own food. Okay? So you're either farming or you're growing food. Growing food, we've already protected.
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: But the livestock is the issue.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: The livestock is the issue. And and and if you're not doing $5,000 worth of business, maybe you need to get there. Maybe you're not really farming. Maybe you're not where you need to be. Those are the two issues where I'm at and I don't want to, cause we spend a lot of time talking about protecting the young, the beginning farmer to get there. I'm nervous, but that's kind of where I'm leaning. Want you guys to- it's under $500 a policy.
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Mhmm.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: You know?
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Sworn it all. I want to. Really, it's sworn it all in a month.
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: So schedule f isn't in this bill. Does that mean it doesn't exist anymore as an exemption?
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: No, no. That would not. Well, You mean a tax exemption or Well,
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: also, the municipality being unable to regulate if they file on schedule a
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: That that would be that would be correct. Right? So if it is taken out of this, that is no longer a factor in determining whether or not a municipality can can regulate it, and this bill proposes to take that piece out.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. So and again, I'm just trolling things out there. In discussions with everyone, with the league who have talked to me, like, they've all talked to you as well, but in my discussions with them. Mhmm. The in discussions with the league, in discussions with the agency, we have some broad discussions as far as what we can change as long as, you know, we stay within the context of this language, but I don't think that it's not gonna raise any red red flag with anyone. And so we're we're starting to do a little bit, which I'm fine with, if that's what we wanna do. We're just starting to split hairs for the the advocates. And so, We stay within the confines of this. We've got a good bill. My whole thing is that we are rewriting this a little bit, and do we wanna put things in there to keep getting back to what got us here by you know, that's where I'm at. I hope I make sense. I'm random. I I know. No. So I'm not afraid to be a hair tougher because we're not really being that much more tough. We're going from the hobby person to a business because I think that we've protected everyone else with the right to grow plans. You guys just have to tell me where you want to be on this. Rob, while we're waiting for Steve to come back in, what are your thoughts? Well, I'm not
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: terribly well versed in this, but I heard from the farmers fairly clearly that they did not want to change it from 2,000 to 5,000. So that's where I would fall on this. Whatever the committee decides, however, I will agree with. It's not one of those make or break things for me.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. I guess the the all the farmers and farmer advocates that you've heard from are making over 2,000. Exactly. Why do they want it? Are they just
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: afraid or Is it like the gentleman that was on the end of it that just wants to go back to no change Are at we at that?
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: And that's where I started, to be honest with you.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah. Yeah.
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Maybe I'm willing to believe the five and not worry about schedule one.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Because I'll But let's talk about that. So Okay. And with everyone, Bradley too, please just jump in. Why would Is it the farmer that doesn't want to schedule that? No, I think they do. Okay. So who doesn't want to schedule that then?
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: I think VLCT and the agency drove the bus or not. Yeah.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: That's right.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We're finally getting down to So why the breach? Why?
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Is it because I I think the idea is to limit I I don't wanna put words in the in the No. But we need to know. I don't want I I think the idea would be to the gainsmanship, so to speak, of someone saying, I don't like these municipal regulations. Therefore, I'm going to try my best to meet the wraps in in a way that maybe is not meaningful in terms of farming or what the agency is farming. Another thing the agency has testified is that it's hard to regulate these small backyard operations that are not necessarily what they what they would consider farming. And and so part of it is a little bit of break
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: and forth burden as well.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: So at the the 2,000, it seems as if a municipality can just, you know
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: I didn't know what you mean.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: It's just really it's so simple, but it's a little confusing. It really is as far as why I'm True to follow-up.
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: I do five. It's just the how long's 2,000 been in there for since 2016,
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I think?
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Yeah. So inflationary measure, if we had attached the inflationary measure, it'd be up to 5,000 anyway. So, and that shows What I had asked,
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: and I wish the advocates or the farm community was still here, if you had to only have one of them, either
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Schedule F or the five, which one is more important to you? And listening to our counsel here, that's I would worry about that. That, you know, hey, I only made $500 but I did a schedule that, and I'm technically a Right.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Is that the sum? Check, okay.
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: It's not
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: gonna come in a loop for me. Exactly, just becomes clear to me, and I think it does. Okay.
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Then I'm willing to go along with the rest of the committee, leave the schedule at fault and leave the threshold at five.
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: I understand what they're saying, but we're trying to get a balance here.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, and one of the discussions that we had is you had to step out of the room that I've made and again, it's just only because it's a discussion that I said if you weren't here, is that I think we have an opportunity to protect these farmers from people who aren't really being farmers. We already have the ones that can be protected some because they've got a right to grow plants. Okay? So they're protected. But then we get into the livestock part of it and then at that 5,000, I haven't met any of them yet that have been in here that aren't above it.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Know. Was the thing that was-
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: They said start up. They might have been under it, but it's like, well, if you can't
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: It didn't start up. That's you know, we just that's
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: 400 a month. Yeah.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: You know? Even if you go 600 even if you go six months, you know, let's just say or weather or whatever. I mean, if not, your revenue isn't you know? Yeah.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Are you are you really being a farm? Your hobby. Yeah. Are are you being a hobby? Yeah. Or growing plants, which are already protected. Cause they have the right to do that. Oh yeah. So I'm hearing from the committee, 5,000.
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Yep. New York, just by the way, looked 10. It Yeah. And under seven acres is 25,000 a year, 50 every two years. That's how it says in your statute. So it's like
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: so, you know. Okay. Good. Rob? I'll I'll go with it. Okay. No changes on sections well, sections two and three then.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Right. Well, make sure we go all the way to the end. Oh, yeah, because there's parts.
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: The acreage. Yeah.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Mhmm. He
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: said it's wonderful. Right. The game. Right? Because it was four. Yeah. We came down to one.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: That's for livestock. I think this is reasonable. Yeah. But again, all I'm saying, let's go around the room. I don't wanna hear it.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Because of the rabbits.
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: The rabbits, but even still, she said she started out on a farm. She said she could have started Under an acre. Under an acre, but So she wouldn't fall under this. And would have gotten noticed.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah. I think that's really what it is, is who complains.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Especially with rabbits. Well,
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: I say
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: that. Yeah.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: You know?
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: I was at fourteen weeks. Wow.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: That's a good turnout. Yeah.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah. Well, meat birds are ten weeks. You better be at the end of ten weeks or they're starting to break their heads. They get so big.
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Is that something we should ask Council Calamore from Collamore? Collamore. Collamore, yeah, sorry. So rephrase the question. Should we ask him about the rabbits under that? How that would affect? Because they are, are they considered livestock? Or are they considered, yeah. They're not a plant. Right? Yeah, that's right. They're a mammal. Yeah,
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: they wouldn't fall into-
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Yeah, because she- Okay. But they could definitely make Is five
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: that the only livestock that really would be
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: because chickens are already protected, right? Correct. Yes. As long as they're not rooters. I mean,
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: guinea pigs, I don't know. Do you eat guinea pigs? That was a
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: pretty good one, though. Put a little pepper on
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: I don't know if that's a conversation we need to have or that, you know, that was my concern with the one acre that, you know, when you're that close, like she said, you could raise any You other could have money on his tank. Yeah, 20 more.
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: And she also wouldn't fall on the income piece of it either because she didn't make five. I think she said she just barely made two. That was starting me up.
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Yeah. Doing better than that now.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: But she if she own 300 rabbits, you would think that she'd make it. Yeah. And at restaurants, Bryce is the one that just Yeah. Buy them.
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: I don't mind the one acre, but it just that's what I write about is
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: something So you're just worried, senator. You're worried more about this or whether we should restrict more animals in that one acre.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: So that that's, I guess, where I was going.
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: If
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: right now, it's it's chickens. I mean, what what and you throw rabbits in there. What other, you know, farm animal would you have with that? I mean, I I I can't. Let me see if I can get Yeah. That's why you're on the phone. That's it. I I I would ask, you know
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I'd like to, while keep the discussion going, we have Bradley's attention. Or we could
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: do it under any mammals under, what's that, rabbit rabbit? Wait.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: It's a long trip. You said I I think you had a 40 I think you said rats first. I was about to say What's that?
[Steve Collamore (Vermont Agency of Agriculture)]: Go get that. Well,
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: the the list of the list of animals for four acres or more
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah.
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Well,
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: I don't know
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: what many of these are, but includes a number of other things that seem to be
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: smaller.
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: 30 rabbits
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: as well. I located me on speakerphone in the committee. We have Attorney Schulman here, we have the committee in here, and we have a question or two working on section three, and specifically on the acreage size of one acre and what what's excluded. And we believe that it's chickens with no roosters, that they have the right to do that. We had some testimony in here about rabbits and here. That they would be under should they have that same exclusion or are we including everything that we need to include by, you know, we're struggling a little bit on the one acre and what would be okay with that. Is that what it is?
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: There you go.
[Steve Collamore (Vermont Agency of Agriculture)]: I'm bring live then as well. Yes.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah, yeah, you are live. You're on everything. You're on- I understood. Okay.
[Steve Collamore (Vermont Agency of Agriculture)]: So- Yes, let me try to help if I can.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. So,
[Steve Collamore (Vermont Agency of Agriculture)]: go ahead. So, Collamore, yep, sorry.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Go ahead.
[Steve Collamore (Vermont Agency of Agriculture)]: Go ahead, sir. Yes. Steve Collamore, Institute of Agriculture. Well, thank you very much for calling. And so the, you're correct that the one acre would not impact poultry as we proposed it. Anybody could have poultry small backyard poultry flock is what was proposed, and that was agreed to by the league. We, our communications with the farm groups and with the league, rabbits were discussed and proposed as there were some, well, at least some of the groups were concerned about the possibility of rabbits on smaller parcels. And the agency, we didn't discuss rabbits when we were developing this proposal with the farm groups or with the league. So we can't change our position because we agreed to the league that we would stay where we were unless we were able to move to full consensus. The farm groups proposed rabbits and they talked to the league. The league was not okay with that proposal. And if I remember correctly, the league was okay with poultry because there's no town that's currently excluding poultry, but they thought rabbits were a different umbrella. So if you have an acre of land and a specified number of rabbits, then you could then if you have an acre of land and the rabbits could be protected. Right. Or if you're commercially farming rabbits and you've and you come under the RMDs, it could also be protected. The one way it was designed is, you know, less than an acre of land towns would be to regulate rabbits if they want to.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So If they want. If they
[Steve Collamore (Vermont Agency of Agriculture)]: have zoning to do so when they want to. Right? Mhmm. And, you know, a lot of people have pet rabbits in their house too. So Okay. You know, that comes back to the whole one acre thing. Is there a lot of a lot of pests that really don't fall within the agency's agency of agriculture's ability to regulate. And we want everyone to be able to have whatever pet included, more livestock that they want to raise for themselves. But it's different than having the ability to do it and us being able to effectively regulate it if they don't have it in my hand. They can sort of apply our regulations too. Does that make sense?
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah, does. I think you answered everything that we're struggling with. Rob?
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: No, I'm good.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. And we have Rob online as well as counsel, so that's why we were there. Okay. While we have counsel on here, are we good? Are we through section three now?
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Because we've got at least one.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yep. Okay. So we got through that. Okay, we're just gonna go
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: that's all. We good? Yeah, that completes section three. Steve, thank you.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We'll holler back to you, I think we're good with that. We just got through one and three and I think you'll be happy when it's all said and done.
[Steve Collamore (Vermont Agency of Agriculture)]: Excellent. If you need me to come over there, I'm happy to as well. So just let me know.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I think we're good for right now. Thank you very much. Yep, bye. Okay, sure. Bye.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: So no changes on two. The changes on three proposed by Senator Plunkett about adding the definition, the nonprofit definition there. But then section three, are you good?
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I think we're good. Great. Okay.
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: And then we're getting ready to tackle them. That's right?
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Yeah.
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Accessory farmers still working on that.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. I have instructions to amend that.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. So we got a meeting with that. And seven, we're all in that language was good. Yep. Eight, we're we're x ing. Yep. Now we're on to The easy one.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: And that would be eight and nine. Yeah. Eight. That's is odd parts.
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Yep. It isn't any less easy than one, two, or three. Yeah.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I don't know. We're on the we're on the 10.
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Are we gonna talk about that today?
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: What's that?
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Are we talking about section 10 today?
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Do you want to?
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: I've got got eleven minutes.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay.
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: I there I I wouldn't have enough time for me to to to really engage in the conversation, but you guys obviously can.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, no. Wait. I don't wanna do that. Yeah. I I need you I need you to be in I need you be in that. Or you have time tomorrow? Yeah. Yeah.
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Oh, yeah. I'll be on tomorrow morning.
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Okay. So here we go. Let's 09:30.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah. So let's check with Calcul, do you have any time tomorrow, that we can just go over, Section 10? It might it might be an hour.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: I think you you have me out at 09:30. Okay. And, but I think we're going over Section 10. We should get Ellen. Yep. Because Okay. So if if we could
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: No. No. No. Bring in let's bring in web whoever yeah. Let's do that. Great. Okay. I thought we were good. So so as far as I'm seeing it, we are all set with everything except for second intent. Yeah.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Just to add complexity, but I have Oh,
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: we do have we do have a handful of things too. We we have the
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: m the mortgage thing.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: And the m changes, there's a couple changes to current use that I went over, And then the mortgage issue Right. Conservation District. Yes. Yes. And so I I did some research on the conservation districts. I don't you know, we don't see an issue with allowing them to mortgage. That statue is written in a bizarre way that says that they can mortgage, but then later on in the same paragraph, it says they can't. And so I saw that instruction from the committee was to remove the section that says that they can't do a mortgage and that they would have to get permission from the governor. Correct. So just take that piece out and I'm gonna do that and add that in.
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Correct.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: With respect to hemp, I chatted with the CCB and last time we had questions about the administrative procedure and being subject to wraps when you're growing hemp. The agency said that, or the CCD said that leaving the wraps out was an oversight. So we'll bring that back in. There'll be section saying hemp is subject to the wraps and that hemp is an agricultural product.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: With respect to the administrative procedures, they said that they will incorporate by reference the procedures they have in place with the cannabis control board And that should be sufficient for administrative protections on people who might get citations or things of the sort. So
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: the only other thing we were gonna have them do was, and it was really on their end of it, but we were gonna have a say in it. I'm pretty sure it's about they were gonna look at your fees again. Yes. Okay. And they were they were going to they hurt with that because, again, I don't wanna get in the middle of that, but there if if we don't have some consensus, we're gonna have to just to protect farmers.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: So for my purposes, is the committee okay with putting the rats the rats reference back in? Yes. Okay. Great. And then I will check-in. I'll circle back with them on the fees. Is it okay for me to include hemp in the strike all amendment that I'm preparing there? Yes, please. Okay. And then same thing with the mortgage. Please. Then the other changes to
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: The last thing that we're gonna have Rob, you still with us? Yep. The thing we're gonna have is on Tuesday when we come back, have some farm structures that got shut out of current use and pay big tax bills. We would have that part of it and that would have to be something that we really get done fast on Tuesday, Wednesday. We're going take testimonies on Tuesday on that. The other thing is Rob, Senator Major, yes, we're changing the language as far as conservation districts about the mortgage. I talked to Gus Sealy today, and Gus says that that is the best thing that we can do if we wanna do that Barton project with the conservation districts buying that Barton property from the fairgrounds, that it really should go through institutions. Gus talked to Chair Harrison about that last night and Gus is in the committee today and so we'll talk about that and so that's going to relieve this committee from that part of it. Good. K. So I think we're we're good then, right, for now?
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Yeah. Yeah.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Alright.
[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Thank you, Rob. Thank you.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yep. Committee, anything else? Tomorrow we're gonna just rubber stamp S60. Should say it like that because it's not what we're doing, but we've
[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: all upstatement.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We've we've all we've all reviewed it, and, we think that we're just gonna be able to, concur. And, other than that, feel a lot better if you guys do. Yep.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: K. Great. Thank you very much.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Thank you for the help. Sorry to be a little bit disorganized, we got through off our game a little bit this morning to do that.
[Bradley Schulman (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Well, this looks like a complex bill, so I think it's Okay. Appreciate it.
[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Committee, anything else? Nope. Do we have anything else that we're gonna talk about, Linda? We're putting everything up?
[Sen. Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Cleaning for today.