Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Good morning, it's Thursday, February 26. We are in this committee. We are working really hard as far as to get our miscellaneous Ag bill out. We have a lot of subjects in there that are protecting and helping farming throughout the state, but we're never too important that we don't meet with the groups that we are representing, and today's one of those days. We have Rural Vermont Annual Small Farm Action Day. We have some of their members in here, and I think we're going hear a lot about what's going on with them. So who would like to lead off?

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: Yeah, maybe just as a welcoming word, Chairman Gordon, legislative director of who we want to thank you all very so much for having us. Our Small Farm Action Day format is really a platform where we offer our members to come forward and express from their own perspective how either the priorities we're working on right now relate to what they're experiencing on the ground, but really we're not prescribing what people want to say in this format. It's kind of an open door also from you all to curb maybe a more diverse group of people that are often small farmers or even on the homestead scale and what's important to them. So we're kind of just the facilitator and making sure in relationship to you guys, have an opportunity to take an hour and hear such a broader view of perspective, so thank you so much for taking this time. Know time is short right now, and I will not say any more.

[Erin Dietz (Rural Vermont board member; farmer and educator, Newfane)]: I think

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: we have a lot of We have an hour, so just make sure everybody gets true with what they want to say. We got our hard stuff at hand. Actually, we have made a commitment on this one, we want to honor that. I'm going to shout out, so go ahead.

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: So I think, Maryam, maybe I'm a start. Let's start something. Hi, everyone.

[Brian Miriam (Board Chair, Rural Vermont; farmer, Strafford)]: Thank you again for having yourself here.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Thank you for being here.

[Brian Miriam (Board Chair, Rural Vermont; farmer, Strafford)]: So, I'm Brian Miriam. I am Royal Vermont's board chair,

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: which is, as you know, one of

[Brian Miriam (Board Chair, Rural Vermont; farmer, Strafford)]: the larger member organizations in the state. I live in Stratford. I'm

[Erin Dietz (Rural Vermont board member; farmer and educator, Newfane)]: a farm worker on a dairy farm.

[Brian Miriam (Board Chair, Rural Vermont; farmer, Strafford)]: I'm a young farmer, and I have 14 acres with my housemate that's enrolled in current use for pest control in the hay field. So I'm here to talk about today something that's not in front of you yet, but mostly to give you a heads up if it does come across your desk, and depending on what happens with the house, recently, House Ag made changes to section five of the 2026 miscellaneous tax bill, and they were introduced to clarify that any land use for grazing should qualify for current use. Rural Vermont supports that intent, but because of how the language Fair enough. That was done through house ag is written, We're concerned that it will incentivize landowners to charge farmers high lease fees for access to their land when these landowners already receive tax breaks for enrolling into current use. So, basically, what was proposed is that landowners can have land in current use if it's under a three year lease, which has always been true, or if they are being paid at least $2,000 for a 25 acre parcel. Dollars 75 for every additional acre over 25. So, one of the concerns is that this is gonna incentivize landowners to charge these fees rather than have a greater lease.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I look at it, just the opposite. I've always had land and I've always had a farmer and all that, and I'm thankful that the farmer would even choose to come and hay the field, and I've actually spent money myself on fertilizer, and they didn't ask me to do that. There was not it, but I just wanted my fields to be healthy and all that, so I hope that it doesn't happen it that way, because I don't see it in my neck of the woods as far as that's how it works.

[Brian Miriam (Board Chair, Rural Vermont; farmer, Strafford)]: Yeah, so on my housemate and I, we have 14 acres of pasture in current use, and, I work on the dairy farm part time, and I have land that's used by that dairy farm under current use. It's really clear to me the difference between having access to land to be a store farmer and being a farmer myself. When I'm on the dairy farm, I'm fencing, moving animals, monitoring their health, assessing pasture quality, and making sure they're well fed. As some of land in current use, I don't do any of that. I make sure the land's available, I communicate with the farmer, sign a three year lease. It's worth it to me because, like you said, I get to see the land stewarded and improve the grazing, and I'm increasing this pasture base that's available to a farm. I'd love to see that. And the current use program makes holding on to those 14 acres more affordable and incentivizes for me to keep

[Erin Dietz (Rural Vermont board member; farmer and educator, Newfane)]: it in agriculture, but I don't need

[Brian Miriam (Board Chair, Rural Vermont; farmer, Strafford)]: a lease fee for that. Current use helps protect land access for farmers by lowering their tax burden and incentivizing landowners to offer unused land up for farm management. The greatest challenge for young farmers and farm workers looking to get into farmer farming, as I'm sure you know, is land access. I would be unable to farm myself if it weren't for access to my parents' land because the land I live on is too rocky for vegetable farming, and all the viable land near me is far beyond the economic reach of someone making 40,000 a year. If we want to keep up people in this state and make it possible for them to farm, they need to be able to afford to access land to pursue a high capital, low profit endeavor, Incentivizing landowners to ask for a $2,000 lease fee instead of a three year lease will only make land less affordable and less accessible. Current use doesn't exclude landowners from charging the lease fee, but we don't need to encourage it.

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: Yeah, absolutely. What I'm worried about is putting that 2,000 in, is that people, like, I have land like Russ was saying, I have land that I'm happy to have that, to keep it clear, that's what I want the farm to do, I don't charge them anything, because I understand it. But you put that 2,000 in it and they see it, they'll be like, well, I guess I

[Brian Miriam (Board Chair, Rural Vermont; farmer, Strafford)]: can Yeah, or it's So we'd be.

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: Or we should put a minimal amount or something to keep it so that somebody, if they pick up that money amount, it's like, I'm never charged for it, but I guess I should.

[Brian Miriam (Board Chair, Rural Vermont; farmer, Strafford)]: Well, right, exactly. As opposed to, they've always been allowed to enroll it by having a three

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: year lease Well, to be I don't even have mine in plain use, I'm just saying, I did, then I was reading Milan, oh, I could get $2,000 an Right. Or if it says no fee to a minimum fee to keep the land clear, that might be wiser than putting a dollar amount. That's all I'm saying.

[Brian Miriam (Board Chair, Rural Vermont; farmer, Strafford)]: Yeah, no, I totally, I, yes, and I think something, you know, are people leasing some really high quality silage ground for $400 an acre? For sure. Or is $2,000 an acre, or $2,000 for 20 acres for grazing, can anyone even break even on that? Yep. So then you're just incentivizing landlords to, or telling landlords that that's a reasonable thing to trust for achieving.

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: But some might definitely want this. Yeah. It's like you put a dollar amount, somebody wasn't charging you, might all of sudden charge you, now it's like, why are charging me for $10 here?

[Brian Miriam (Board Chair, Rural Vermont; farmer, Strafford)]: Yeah, and so those $2,000 are in there originally because the farm needs to be making $2,000 in order to qualify its current use. Mhmm. So, we're encouraging, if this comes to you guys, and we're encouraging House Ag to change subsection C of this so that land is eligible for current use if it's used by a farmer who produces an annual gross income from the sale of crops or grazing of at least $2,000 rather than that to $1,000 is because it's a lease fee of $2,000

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Great, okay. That's going to come to us. We're going to have more time to talk about that. Let's get on to what else that you have so that we don't take

[Brian Miriam (Board Chair, Rural Vermont; farmer, Strafford)]: up your time. Perfect, thank you so much.

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: So, I think maybe we go through the people who are in the room first, so Sarah, if you

[Henry Harris (Small farmer, Marshfield)]: would be open. Sure. Good

[Erin Dietz (Rural Vermont board member; farmer and educator, Newfane)]: morning.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Good morning, good morning.

[Erin Dietz (Rural Vermont board member; farmer and educator, Newfane)]: So thank you so much for seeing me again. For the record, my name is Erin Dietz. I am a rural Vermont board member, a farmer, and an educator in Newfane, Vermont. As you know, I gave testimony here in senate ag for food resilience with the Food Bank in Nova, Vermont three weeks ago.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: And I think that turned out fairly well for you. Why didn't it take off that from 500? Yeah. 885,000.

[Erin Dietz (Rural Vermont board member; farmer and educator, Newfane)]: I just got a advocacy update from the Food Bank yesterday, in fact, saying, like, they were super pleased with the results, so I wanna thank you

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: so much for that. Yeah.

[Erin Dietz (Rural Vermont board member; farmer and educator, Newfane)]: During that testimony, I was briefly asked about municipal exemption, and I wanna clarify my stance on that because we wouldn't have a

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: lot time to talk about it on that day. Okay.

[Erin Dietz (Rural Vermont board member; farmer and educator, Newfane)]: I'm extremely concerned about the issue and how regrettable the solution being proposed are. To start, towns simply don't have the expertise or capacity to oversee agricultural operations. Furthermore, opening farms up to scrutiny based on unmajorly discord or disagreements, which is in part how we lost farmer exemption in the first place, is a wild act of agricultural indenturement that will divert critical time and resources for both towns, farms, and the relevant agencies that regulate us. When we first started out, our neighbors weren't unhappy about the increased traffic on our private road and some other picket lows. Someone called the town with several specious claims to have an EPA rep come. When someone from the town arrived, he was clear that there was no issue with what we were doing. When I expressed surprise that Newfane had its own EPA rep, he told me that he was actually an accountant. This man had no qualification whatsoever to assess our operation. We quickly decided to file a Schedule F and register as an LLC with the state so that we could both ensure that we had access to expertise about regulatory compliance and that we were protected from future petty grievance. In those first years, we went from making under $600 a year to just over 2,000, but our income was extremely variable based on large but necessary capital investments, our capacity as we were both working full time off farm jobs, and instability while we found our markets. Without access to programs and protections through filing a schedule f almost ten years ago, it seems impossible that we would be the strong community resource that we are today. A resource that I want to make clear still makes too little money and sits on too few acres to qualify for most programs. A huge part of the work that we do is teaching folks how to grow their own food, from home growers to new farmers. We don't farm what most people would consider extremely arable land. It's very rocky. It's on a hillside. It has water that flows through it in a very inconvenient way, But it's the two acres that came with the house that we have, and it's the best way to show that everyone can grow food right where they are. It's critical that we start to remember our food ways and that folks feel capable to provide for themselves and their communities. A new study just confirms that small scale farmers produce more of the rich world's food than previously thought. That isn't news to small farmers like me. In the fight against climate catastrophe and poly crisis, home growers whose small farms are the future, and I heard just this morning you say that, Senator. Blocking access to funding, expertise, and protections puts our resilient future in peril. The right to grow food and distribute it is an issue that comes up year after year, and we have the chance to get it right and to close the issue once and for all. Last year, the legislature was asked to increase our ability to manage our community's food needs by strengthening the cottage food law. There's a bill up this session in the house right now on the right to grow gardens because more and more tenants are finding landlords and HOAs are prohibiting small home gardens. We must codify the right to grow food, including the right to raise livestock and sell food products from small operations for everyone, and send a message that further enclosures of land will not be allowed. Some of our northern neighbors have made great progress on food sovereignty. In November 2021, Maine became the first US state to constitutionalize the right to food. We can join them in protecting the deeply held heritage of our state, and indeed, we can do better. As a regenerative no till farmer, I lead policymakers to understand that land stewardship is much more complicated than agriculture for extraction alone. Not all practices that are critical to care for the land are lucrative. Moreover, agriculture at any scale without livestock is not healthy for the land, and food sovereignty without the ability to access or produce healthy, affordable proteins cannot be considered complete. I've heard that restoration of the farmer exemption is top of mind, and I wanna thank you so much for your diligence on this critical matter. In addition to restoring those protections, I urge you to ensure that current guidelines under the RAPs remain intact. Farmers must be able to schedule a file F as adequate proof of eligibility. Additionally, the right to grow food, free from municipal regulation, must be codified for everyone. Thank you so much.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Thank you. Thank you for coming in. We appreciate it very much.

[Erin Dietz (Rural Vermont board member; farmer and educator, Newfane)]: I'm happy to answer questions if anyone has any.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I think we're starting to, we're going to figure this out. We're going to spend some time on it today. We're going shut the door. We're going to, it will be live, but we're going to just, you know, I don't know that we have really had time as a committee to sit right down and see where everybody is. We've had general discussions and I've been respectful of that. We have a lot of people. We have a lot of people that want different things. What's very important to me is all of that, but also where my committee lies. Everybody's got a piece here or there that's important to them from what they're hearing, either for their constituent, which is most important, but of all things, all farmers in the state. So I think that no matter what happens, we're gonna come out on the right side of this for everyone. It might not be what everybody wants, that I'm not putting any signals out there to be ready for anything. To be fair, when I tell you that I don't know where we're gonna end up totally with all the language, again, I wanna trust my committee to do the right things and the right work, and they have very, very ranging and broad opinions of it. But we'll all be winners when we're all said and done. And it is not a one is done. It will be a moving target in the right direction. So I think that's what everyone really needs to remember. I do I have sorry for the rant, but I have some appreciation for how this year has gone with your groups, the NOPA groups, all the groups that have come into the legacy groups as far as the Farm Bureau and stuff like that. I'm thankful that we have gotten to a place to where we've all recognized that we're all farmers in different areas in different ways, and I'm proud of how you all have come together to find out that it's pretty fragile once a decision's made. I think we're getting there. We're all working together. After this is done, really hope that we can still encourage everyone to push hard to represent all farmers, no matter whether you agree with it or not. I think we've done a really nice job. You folks have done

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: a really nice job, so we're appreciative of that. I may, just to make it clear, the OCT and Department of Agriculture, they negotiated and they're just very close. And so the last little bit, they kinda threw on us. And so we'll we'll we'll navigate that. But to piggyback on senator Ingalls, you know, first and foremost, our job is to represent the farmers and make sure that farmers have the best option for for them. So, and through this committee, that's that's what we done. That's what we have done, I think, and we'll continue to do that.

[Erin Dietz (Rural Vermont board member; farmer and educator, Newfane)]: Thank you so much. Thank

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: you, Senator. Let me just pass it to first.

[Brian Miriam (Board Chair, Rural Vermont; farmer, Strafford)]: You. Sure.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Welcome. Thank you.

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: I'm Kerstin Tyler. I live in Westward, Vermont. This is my first time here and my first time I've chatted by, so if can kiss me if I'm so nervous.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So call him more as abrupt as he looks.

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: He's good.

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: So, I'm gonna read my testimony, and then, I mean, if you have any questions or if wanna stop me at any point in time, then please do so because I would like it to be a conversation, but I'm nervous, so I'm gonna read it. Alright. Alright. I'm sorry about Fine. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today and listen to Farmers. I'm here today to ask you to restore the longstanding municipal exemption for farms that was lost under the recent Supreme Court ruling, and established a right to grow food that includes reasonable allowances for livestock, plants, and other forms of food production. A little bit about me, my family owns just one acre of land in Westward. We leased another 10 acres. So we grow a half an acre of certified organic vegetables and we raise pasture based rabbits on five acres of that lease plant. Rocky Hill Farm is a small farm, but it is a big part of our livelihood. We are relatively new farmers. When we decided to start farming in 2020, we were living on rented land. And like many Vermonters, we wanted to buy a large parcel, but the housing market, it's extremely expensive and limited, so we rented for several years before we were finally able to buy, but we could only afford one acre. So while renting, we wanted to raise livestock for meat, but we couldn't invest in permanent infrastructure like fencing or a barn because we didn't own the land and we didn't want to put our money into something like that that wasn't ours. After extensive research, we found meat rabbits could be a possibility for us renters with very minimal startup. Rabbits are uniquely suited to small persons of blanders. They're quiet and docile. They can be raised in small hutches or in small movable pens on a very small amount of pasture or even a lawn. They don't create the noise or odor concerns often associated with other livestock, and biologically, they are incredibly efficient. A decent number of rabbits can be raised responsibly on a very small footprint, and in my experience, one could raise easily 65 rabbits on just one acre, which could feed a family of four for, say, a year. The 323S323 explicitly protects small backyard poultry flocks from municipal regulation, and I'm asking to ensure that small livestock like rabbits are explicitly included as well. So we started with just two females and one male, and we were up and running. Now we raise over 300 pastured rabbits a year for restaurants in our region, and we cannot fill the demands. So rabbits are growing as a livestock safety. They were our entry point into farming because they are practical for small land bases and folks who don't have secure permanent land. And since then, we've had to move our entire farm twice. Our little livestock made it possible for us to be movable, and we were able to move because we raised rabbits. So protections for agriculture also made it possible for us to move our farm onto several different properties. Like most new farms, we started very small. When we started, we made well under $5,000 a year, and we were growing vegetables and raising livestock on less than an acre. Farming businesses like ours take time to build markets and infrastructure and production capacity, and small acreage and low revenue are not signs that something is not a farm. In my opinion and my experience, they are actually how farms begin. And so that's why the change to raise the RAP's income threshold from 2,000 to 5,000 concern me very much. Let's say if farms under one acre are making less than 5,000 acres, lose protection, then you're not just redefining the eligibility around farms, but you're also raising the drawbridge or the fence in front of the next generation of new farmers. Moreover, restoring the municipal exemption for farms is essential. Without it, municipalities could regulate farms through zoning in ways that create uncertainty and instability for some livestock species. If regulatory authority shifts to municipalities, that means that decisions about will ultimately rest with the local select boards. Membership can change every few years, as those boards change ordinances or priorities can change. So a farmer could be allowed to raise livestock under one board and then face different restrictions under the next, and so this level of uncertainty is difficult to plan or invest in a business? And the same goes across town lines. Different towns that have different rules. So this PATHwork system is subject to frequent local change and makes the long term stability of having a farm basically impossible. So to finish, rabbits are a healthy efficient source of protein. They can be raised humanely on small acreage and they contribute to diversified self sufficient farmsteads. They are familiar to many new American communities. They are part of a resilient local food system and they should be explicitly included in protections for livestock and the right to grow food. So, I urge you to restore the municipal exemption for farms and therefore create a right to grow food that includes reasonable livestock protections so that small farms like mine can continue to contribute to Vermont's local food system. Thank you. So,

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: how at what age do you harvest a rabbit?

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: Because we do pasture raised, we do 14.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: 14. And what what what was the weight gain of a dressed rabbit at that point in time?

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: About three pounds.

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: Three pounds? Yeah.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: And do you do just whole rabbits? Do you do any parts and parcels of it? I know that we did some chicken stuff as far as being allowed to actually start a column or report the bill as far as being able to harvest chicken. Do you do parts and pieces or just whole rabbits?

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: We're not allowed to do parts and pieces. That is something that we would love to do. But, yeah, no, we're not allowed to do parts and pieces. And we do have our rabbit slaughtered at a USDA approved facility, the only one in Vermont. So, yes, I did actually mention this. If Phil Browns

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: meets Okay, yeah.

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: Okay. He

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: is? Yeah. Wonderful man. I forgot that.

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: We've had him slaughter or process our rabbits for the last five years, and he is he has dropped hints that he wants to close the rabbit part of his operation, and if that is the case, then we would have no USDA approved rabbit slaughtering So, facilities in the

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: we're the leading person on rabbit harvesting and raising a long time ago.

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: Yeah, yeah, Vermont rabbitry. Yeah. And if that does happen where we lose him, then we won't be able to sell to restaurants unless they have something on their menu. But really, we don't wanna slaughter 300 rabbits on our own farm. We would like to do that at a USDA certified or approved facility. Have you started

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: Exploring. Yeah, see if you could get somebody to pick it up. Yeah. Sounds like a good business.

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: It is, it is, and it's growing too. We can't meet demand for restaurants. We have talked to Maple Wind and some other folks that slaughter animals, rabbits are just a little bit different. They're pretty easy and fast, but they're much smaller than the other larger livestock, and in terms of poultry and rabbit, you have to have things very, very separate because of the regulations around poultry versus mammals. So, I think it would be expensive and difficult to, and complicated to put a rabbit slaughter facility in another slaughter facility area.

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: I'll have you get ahold of Heather Lane. She might be able to, Heather Lane, she to, might yeah.

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: Yeah, we can explore this with you.

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: I'm honest, Zoe, that you realize that most of this is only affecting tier one, and what they say, there's only like five places in Vermont that are gonna be affected by and what that's doing is keeping, like, if you wanted to bring get your rabbit farm into a tier one, which is a densely populated village area, that that's where the city may have authority to say,

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: we don't want that.

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: I understand that. But under one acre, I mean, if you if you look at, like, a little rabbit farm, the size of this table could raise, like, 20 rabbits per

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: round. Nobody's saying you can't

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: do it. Or five or six rounds per year, and so that's like feeding a family if the war could happen on this table.

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: And nobody's saying they can't do it, just that they might get the zones that they shouldn't be doing it, and if you got popped, it may, you might have shut it down.

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: Which would be terrible for a family I understand. For a family that we're

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: up against.

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: Yeah, definitely. Spent

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: a few minutes, but, sorry, can I jump off the other way? Did you always have

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: a question? I just, the only thing, have you had pushback from anyone concerning rabbits?

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: Yeah, in terms of who or what?

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: Yes. No?

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: Eating of them.

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: Oh, I mean, that's funny. We call it the cuteness effect. Yeah. Sure. There are some people who are like, oh my god. We can't believe you.

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: Just just so we're clear.

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: Yeah.

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: I I am I am bored. I I was tricked into having rabbit. Oh. Well, it was when I was young. And and should be like, I know. Thank you very much. And and my parents are from from the South, and my mom said it was chicken. And I said, wow. This is the best chicken I've ever had. And so I I so I just we're clear. I I

[Michael Fernandez (Battenkill Groves; Bennington County Conservation District staff, speaking personally)]: was just You're just

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: gonna factor. You found out they didn't really like chocolate eggs. Yes. I want to spend a few minutes, and I'm gonna cap it because I don't want to get I'm gauging out what we have in the room. I want to just spend a few minutes at some point in time, and maybe we can do it now or maybe we can do it later, the 2,000 to $5,000 about how many people that you think that's going impact. That's a very, very important topic with us right now, the 2,000 to $5,000 I want real stuff, guys. I don't want real stuff. Caroline, go ahead, you know what I want to talk about.

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: I mean, one thought I have about that, you know, state administration and executive branch, the most concern is always afforded to the dairy farms without losing our largest farms. We're going to be down to 100 in the foreseeable future. When you look at the USDA census data, there's over 6,000 farms in Vermont, And many of those farms are small, small farmers. Most of them are small farmers in the state. Many of them do work off the farm and we don't know exactly what the income is they make, but we assume it's all across the board, and we know on the national average that the net income is negative. That's why the income barriers for many programs has been held on the down and keeps being held on the down nationwide, like what we talked about current use. That income of $2,000 not more is required in any other state in the country. I think that's just the image I would share on that bed.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yep. Anyone, please jump in. Just tell us who you are and we'll have to do it again.

[Henry Harris (Small farmer, Marshfield)]: Yep. My name's Henry Harris. I've got a small farm in Marshfield. Thanks so much for having us all today. And I just wanna say that I know that you guys know how hard it is to mobilize like an educated legislature agent, the ag committee, and try to make policy that makes sense for everybody in the state of Vermont. I grew up in Troy and Caledonia County. Jack Star was

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: my bus driver. He's a little kid. Bob Star was brother.

[Henry Harris (Small farmer, Marshfield)]: And I watch all these select boards, you know, they're just desperately trying to figure out where to find their butts with both hands coming in and be meaningful civil servants. They are vulnerable to the development interest in their communities, whereas the farmers don't have time eat lunch, much less track what's going on downtown. You know what I mean? And so, I was sued by my town for having an agricultural education camp. Right? Now they were just trying to follow their own zoning and they didn't even know about accessory on farm business law as many times as I would send it to them. They were decent enough folks, but they sued me for like three years. I still owe $5,000. My farm is oriented towards education for kids. I do education for kids around the state. I work with a number of conservation districts and it was just wild to be shut down by these people who were just trying to do the right job. They just weren't adequate to be able to regulate what's going on in

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: the on the 2 to 5,000. That's where I wanna go.

[Henry Harris (Small farmer, Marshfield)]: Well, I get $2,000 a year selling sapling trees so that I can have my farm designation, be left alone by municipal zoning, and continue to do education work for animals and all kind and I just gotta say, I know you guys know that Vermont is the seventh most food insecure state in the country. I also know you know we don't know where we're going economically and how families are gonna be feeding themselves in the ten to twenty year period. I don't know, am I reaching you guys with this? Do you feel real confident about the economy right now? Because I don't, alright? If we're here in Carolina, say there's 6,000 farms in the state of Vermont, that's the kind of decentralized mobilization for feeding ourselves that we may need, and I'd say we need right now, right? Trying to, I think we've to go back to where we were with the Agency of Ag

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: regulating everything. You know that isn't gonna happen, right? Why not? Because it's not. Because it's not passable. Because of the lobby's too strong? No, no, it's not passable. The Supreme Court, the law of the State of Vermont, ruled, and so we have to somewhat comply with that. So you need to be realistic with us as well. Was like It's not going back to that.

[Henry Harris (Small farmer, Marshfield)]: So the Supreme Court was kind of overreached and no guy did

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: the job No, the Supreme Court, we're not going to say that. We're not gonna say that at all. The Supreme Court is the law of the land, and so it's not going back to that. I need you to understand that, and that's why we're trying to get the best compromise here. So that's where we're at. So yes. One clarifying thing is Senator Heffernan. Thank you. You mentioned the tier one. I know you want to say 2,000 earlier, but I just wanted to clarify that from our perspective, the tier one is going be almost every village around the state. The tier one A is I my

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: was going to say, we have other members who came who want to share their own perspectives and not everybody wants to talk about this specific issue and

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: I know we're running back to get back to where people speak.

[Erin Dietz (Rural Vermont board member; farmer and educator, Newfane)]: Thank you

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: very much. You did a wonderful job. Yeah, don't be nervous.

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: Thanks for the information on rabbits. Didn't realize

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: No, that was very interesting.

[Mary Linehan (Resident and selectboard member, Strafford)]: Hi, I'm Mary Linehan, I'm from Stratford. I'm a small land holder where we have a garden, a big garden, and we have a couple of animals to keep our land clear, because we value that clear land. It's also right in the town. Stratford and the family of have been there is made up of two villages. We have enormous farmland in between the villages. It's beautiful, it's used, it's valued. We love our farms. I'm also on the select board. I'm not speaking for this one. No, I work here. But I do have a perspective over the last seven years of having worked to manage some of the issues that come up for my town. And I want to just point out that in the last seven years while I've been on the board, I can count six small agricultural farms that have been started.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Mary Linehan (Resident and selectboard member, Strafford)]: That's in addition to the ones that are already there. We see that as an important livelihoods issue. It's fantastic for food resilience and self sustainability. During COVID, Strafford felt quite comfortable because we had public CSAs, we had meat in the freezer, we had dairy. We knew that if things got really, really bad, we'd be okay and we could feed ourselves. And I'm a public health professional, so that was really important to me. And I would then like to comment on the goodness of the will of select boards. They really do try hard. We are ill equipped to those medications, which is why we send an accountant sometimes to do the business. We're all well meaning, but I can tell you, I really rely on the Department of Agriculture for agricultural guidance. I don't want that removed. It really doesn't help my town, or me as a public health, human health official, to make uninformed decisions. So, we would really like to maybe make sure that we continue to be guided by that expertise. It's extremely important. The other thing I wanted to highlight was the,

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: sort of,

[Mary Linehan (Resident and selectboard member, Strafford)]: the way the map was done. Because I'm on this leg board, I was party to the 2 Rivers effort to help us map our town, and I can tell you we didn't have in our minds, when we approved that map, any knowledge of how this would impact on farmers. And I can tell you that the mapping would be different should the municipalities be defined by tier one A. It covers too many of our small farmers. We would like to revisit that map in the very least, because we would do a lot of damage to really important production units that are right in the town, because the way our town is, it runs through a valley where there are rivers. That's how our town was built. Right. If we take a Right. Small group around of the the nature, the culture, values of our town really are to maintain this and cultivate these cultivators. We really want them to have a livelihood. We want them to live there. We want them to stay there and be subsufficient. So that's my take on this. I really think that psych boards are really not in a position necessarily to take on some of these important zoning issues. It's complicated, very legalistic, we're not equipped. We rely on VLCT, we love them, they're really helpful, but I think that we're getting, these maps worry me because they exclude my ability to have two cows to feed my field queen and feed my family.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: They don't exclude.

[Mary Linehan (Resident and selectboard member, Strafford)]: Well, could.

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: Right.

[Mary Linehan (Resident and selectboard member, Strafford)]: And I guess that's the other thing. As a select board member, I can see the big changes in my town. We are getting a lot of people moving to the state, moving to our town, which is great. We want them there. But when they become members of the select board, they're sometimes very ill informed about some of their neighbors, their neighbors' livelihoods, their needs. They're well meaning, but they don't have time to learn about the history of the town.

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: Right.

[Mary Linehan (Resident and selectboard member, Strafford)]: And can, if inadvertently, do damage by changing zoning laws in order to try and conform to what they understand the law to be. So it's that in-depth knowledge which we sometimes lack, and I think it is realistic to be concerned about the constant turnover at select boards. This year we had five, four dropped out. Gonna start with a whole new team. I just want you to be aware of how, despite their really good will and their strong intent, it takes them six months to just come to terms with

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Oh, they sure have gone on select board, right?

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: And I'm

[Mary Linehan (Resident and selectboard member, Strafford)]: sure you all know exactly.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: You made a very good point to this committee, very proud of this committee. Think it's the first time I've ever said that. Because the point that you made was that Summit Farms started during that time. We recognize that, and we do. We recognize that very much that that is the way that we are going to grow farming. As Caroline had said, there's 6,000 out of the dairy farm, there's 6,000 farms. We do understand that it is going to That's how we're going to grow agriculture in the state of Vermont if we want to remain an ag state. We do fight for the smallest of the small. We do. Very proud of that. That's something we do, and your testimony was valuable as far as giving us different points as far as what the sun works and stuff. My thing is this: there are always very well meaning intended people that want to step up and run, but sometimes to preserve with what you have, you've got to get uncomfortable and go do it yourself sometimes. You can't ask others to do the work that you want done by asking them to do it if you don't want the outcome. A broader message, I guess, and not too much off topic, but plenty off. But if you want what you have and you want to preserve what you have, it's worth taking your time to go make that happen. As we are sitting in this room and very busy lives, everyone here has something that they have going on in our lives that come. I don't want say this in a bad way, but donate our time. Yes, we get paid, but it's a donation of our time to come here. So I would always push everyone. If you want to change the outcome and you want it to be the way that you want, you have to get involved.

[Brian Miriam (Board Chair, Rural Vermont; farmer, Strafford)]: Thank you,

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: We have a couple folks joining on the screen. Not sure if Michael Fernandez is still joining us virtually.

[Michael Fernandez (Battenkill Groves; Bennington County Conservation District staff, speaking personally)]: Good morning everyone. Michael Fernandez for The Record. Most of you know me from my work with the Bennington County Conservation District. Taking that hat off today and speaking to you all as a new Vermonter, a young beginning farmer, and a recent transplant into this great state. And I'm just hearing the testimony in the room so far, I'm gonna go off my script here to and just say off the top since the the question that you all are asking yourselves around this 2,000 threshold seems to be a really paramount importance. When our business model is relatively complex one, we're an agritourism based agroecology operation. My role in the company is growing the food, managing the livestock, and maintaining six campsites along the Battenkill River. My mother is starting a little cooking school, and my my partner and my sister are assisting with all aspects of that operation. A big part of why we made the decision to locate in Vermont as opposed to just across the river, we're located in West Arlington, as opposed to right across the state line in New York where we already currently own some land in Argyle was the $2,000 threshold that we could start small, we could invest small and grow over time. But also the Act two fifty zoning and farm structure and farm road designations. When we were looking and comparing between New York where the zoning restrictions are a lot more stringent, even though it's a right to grow state and the threshold for agriculture is I believe $10,000 at least it was five years ago when we were doing research on this. So when we were comparing this, we're looking at cheaper ground in New York, but higher upfront investment costs to really get started versus much more expensive land with higher rates of tax. The welcome to Vermont tax here in the state of Vermont, but then access to these lower thresholds. So we wouldn't need to put so much capital at risk in our first years of starting this business. I really wanna emphasize how important that was in our decision making process and also how important it's been as I work all over the state, not just in Bennington County over the last four years. I've talked to hundreds upon hundreds of producers ranging from 100 square foot aquaponics grows in people's basements all the way up to multi thousand acre grazing operations. One of the things that has been a theme throughout my work with the district, to fuzzy up the lines a little bit here, is what a lot of folks have already been saying. Some of the most frequent people who move to Vermont that we interact with and I've interacted with over the last four years to start families, to grow a business are working lands enterprises and oftentimes they're started in these really small contexts either tier one or sometimes tier two small backyard residential areas where people can do things like start a rabbit tree or start a small vegetable or cut herb farm. Another family of the tree of life that has not been discussed that I think it's really important to discuss is mushroom production. I would really encourage you all to consider adding mushroom production to the other exemptions that are being discussed. Don't currently raise mushrooms here at Battenkill Groves. However, we are aware and I work with in my nine to five, a number of small to medium scale mushroom producers within tier one areas that could be very heavily impacted by both the right to grow changes and are already being impacted by the changes coming down from Act 181. These farms serve especially in Arlington, which over the last number of years has become a food desert. We even lost our Dollar General for over most of the winter. So there was literally almost nowhere to purchase food. And the only place you could go was Soul Connection Farm owned by Patrick and Cassie McLaughlin in East Arlington, where they grow in their basement thousands upon thousands of pounds of fresh mushrooms every year using a waste stream from a sawmill directly up the road that would otherwise be diverted into a landfill. By incorporating mushroom production and rabbit production protections into this initial legislation, you will in effect allow for a whole agro ecosystem to be put in place. You'll have rabbits for herbivory, being able to process grass clippings, tree leaves, ramule wood bark, and converting that into protein. And then that ramule wood mulch and any potential incoming waste streams from other local businesses that are producing a carbon based waste can be processed at scale in really small tight settings in urban areas and can provide a key food sovereignty tool in the larger network. It's really incredibly well suited to these specific areas where similar to rabbits, low odor, very few management considerations that could impact the wider public. And we continue to see more and more of these small scale operations popping up as people move into the state, buying into Vermont's brand that it's a friendly place to start a working lands business. You

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: can

[Michael Fernandez (Battenkill Groves; Bennington County Conservation District staff, speaking personally)]: get your current use with a relatively low barrier of entry at that $2,000 level and a schedule F so that we can get started and we can keep moving. But I wanna move on just briefly to some of these changes that have come down through Act 181, specifically the tier three designations that I'm still frankly struggling to understand. Feel like to become a farmer in this state, you have almost need a master in public policy just to navigate all of this stuff at this point. And I look at it every day and I'm still somewhat confused by it, but as I understand it, my ability to implement our business model, multi generational family on a small farm site with farm stays, I would, if I'm not able to get construction done by the end of this year in order to construct the barn apartment, the barndominium as it's commonly called to house myself and my partner so my mother can have the main house. We would need to go through an extremely rigorous, potentially need to go through an extremely rigorous planning process where in the past we would have been able to not hire a bunch of outside engineers, deal with Act two fifty compliance, we would be able to get our agricultural building exemption from the agency of agriculture, go ahead and construct that building under supervision of the town, but not need to spend tens of thousands of dollars to develop plans and go through that permitting process. If that ends up taking place, we'll be forced to reevaluate our business strategy. We're currently already outgrowing our small 10 acre parcel and are looking around in Bennington County for other acreage to purchase or long term lease. If these 181 exemptions are two fifty exemptions are eliminated on roads and structures, we're not going to be purchasing any more farm grounds in Vermont. Will be purchasing all of our purchases moving forward will be in the Battenkill Basin on the New York side of the line. The land is considerably cheaper. A farm up in Rupert right now that we were looking at before reviewing all of these new rules that are coming down is priced at about $3,200 an acre. Right across the state line in New York, I can be looking at $900 to $1,500 per acre for better ground. But we established in this state because we believe in a lot of what this state stands for. We want to be part of this really direct experiment in democracy and food systems development. And we think a lot of things that are happening here are incredibly exciting. But at the end of the day, we are a business and the opportunity cost of being part of the Vermont experiment is beginning to exceed our ability to eat that cost. So I'd really encourage, and I know you all are thinking about this already. We've worked together for a long time at this point, and I know your intentions are incredibly good. But we seem to keep shooting ourselves in the foot when it comes to getting young people to move into the state and further restricting young families' ability to move into the state, start these businesses that every state plan on food security, agricultural security says they want, that we want to have happen. Adding all of these new restrictions on top of what already exists is getting to the point that anyone would be insane to move to Vermont and start an agricultural business here. And I just want to illustrate this with one example, a producer that we've been working with for three years now that moved here from another state for the same reasons we did. They bought into the Vermont brand. They want to be part of what's going on here. They've been in the process of building an accessory dwelling unit for their aging parents for about two years now. And even without these new changes to act 181, it's still very difficult for them to develop that property in a way that's responsible and in line with state guidance because just to put in a prefabricated, pre engineered septic system that one of the partners on the farm was a CB for ten years, really good at putting stuff in the ground. They would need just for engineering review to put the septic tank in the ground, 30,000, which just to put it into context, if they put it in themselves, I farmed in Oregon, I farmed all over the country, This would be something that they would be able to do in other states. Total costs to design since it's a prefabricated system and install it would be $5,000 So there's already a lot of barriers to people moving to this state to start these businesses that we as a citizenry and a community say that we want. And I just would encourage you all to yield to the better angels of your nature and affirm Vermonters right to grow food and try and figure out ways to reduce some of the impacts of these restrictions. I know there's needs to be compromised as the state continues to grow and develop and change in the face of climate impacts but it's getting really difficult and all of these changes coming down the pike are making a lot of us scratch our heads and wonder why we invested in the state. I love this state, I don't wanna leave, but at the end of the day, the business makes the decisions based on money and these restrictions are costing more than they're worth.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Thank you, Michael. We're going to move on just because Caroline's got more folks there. Thank you for what you've done. We appreciate you very much.

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: Thank you all for your time. I know we have like seven more minutes, but I think we have one more participant on screen buster. If you're still with us, the next five minutes are yours.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Can I ask Kristen, do you file Schedule F? You do? Okay.

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: Yep. But we only started to do that in 2022 maybe, so two years or three years really after we started partnering, we started filing Schedule F.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Thank you. And why did you do that?

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: Why did we file a Schedule F?

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Now a quick question. It's just something swirled around the committee. So why did you file Schedule

[Kerstin Tyler (Rocky Hill Farm; rabbit and vegetable producer, Westford/Westward)]: Because we had a loss on our business that year and so we wanted to include it on our tax return. That's the audit to how

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: to code The next code is 4, isn't it?

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: Yeah. Yep. Right. Okay.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Thank you. Pastor, time is yours, sir.

[Ernest “Buster” Caswell (Champlain Orchards employee; speaking personally)]: Good morning, leaders. Are you able to hear me okay? Thumbs up? Okay. Yep. Thank you, leaders, for your valuable time. Symbol of agriculture.

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: Oh, sir, you could introduce yourself too for the

[Ernest “Buster” Caswell (Champlain Orchards employee; speaking personally)]: I'm sorry. Yes. My name is Ernest Caswell. My grandmother wanted a Buster, so I'm commonly known as Buster. I work at Champlain Orchard. I am not at all speaking on behalf of Champlain Orchard. I just do my part. And I'm also grew up in Randolph, Vermont. I presently live in Bristol, Vermont, former FFA member. I hope you saw lots of FFA jackets this year. It was just recently National FFA Week, and we need more FFA Agriculture within our great state so we can continue growing food for our state and our communities, our farmers and our farm workers and our future depends on agriculture. And agriculture in this present day is extremely challenging and has a lot of history. And Reverend Jesse Jackson, a lesson, you can't plant a seed and pick the fruit the next morning. These things take time and understanding. And we must work with the understanding city versus rural, higher education versus lower education, and bring all the opportunities needed to grow food within our state with fewer barriers, fewer regulations, and more opportunities. At the Orchard and other places that I have worked, I've worked with outstanding colleagues and they deserve the same opportunities we all do, an opportunity to grow food if they want to. They might be farm workers, but they deserve every opportunity. And farm workers come from all over the world, Mexico, Canada, Jamaica, And to grow food in this great state, our symbol of agriculture is sitting on a home. We all deserve access to a safe, affordable home. Vermont Housing and Conservation Board has generously gave funding to Champlain Housing Trust to start work, which just began a couple years ago to work on there's two parts of it, repairing homes and building homes on the farms based on a report that's only 65 pages long. And that report is outdated and focused on on farm housing. When we look in other states at the opportunities that have been created to build homes for farmers and farm workers, They are further advanced. They have documentation that demonstrates the needs and the recommendations and those are not necessarily found here in Vermont, because we need to hear the voices of our farm workers and our farmers on the ability to grow and develop homes in our agricultural communities. And furthermore, freedom and unity, we all must come together and listen to each other. There's lots of agricultural advocates and organizations within our state. Addison Allies, UVM, Migrant Justice, Milk with Dignity, Pathstone Corporation, another organization. And we need to listen to those organizations. We cannot fear other organizations on how they are structured. We should be listening to those folks and bringing those in because they have the best experience and knowledge on what it takes to grow food and live in our state. And furthermore, we need to lift up everyone in the agricultural community regardless of where they come, Mexico, Jamaica, Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: But sir, I just wanna give you a

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: two minute warning. We're we're almost we're up against it. Okay.

[Ernest “Buster” Caswell (Champlain Orchards employee; speaking personally)]: I apologize.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: No worries.

[Ernest “Buster” Caswell (Champlain Orchards employee; speaking personally)]: Now please provide funding for the farm worker housing program so that can be ongoing. It's necessary and it just started and it's completely successful. And also try to bring in other opportunities at the national level. We need more mental health services support farm first. Agricultural is essential everybody in it and I would recommend watching The Underdog, a documentary of a farmer out of Middlebury, Vermont who I worked once worked for. And if you haven't seen the underdog, it gives you a different perspective and you might find that documentary online and that they partnered with Farm First. So thank you for your time and please listen to folks upon your decisions and freedom and unity is needed more. Thank you for your time leaders.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Thank you guys for your time. Carolyn, do have any closing comments? Kind of quick.

[Caroline Gordon (Legislative Director, Rural Vermont)]: No, much appreciate you for making the time. I know we're close to crossover. I know every minute counts right now. So really appreciate you hearing from us today.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We appreciate all of you. We really do. We appreciate all what you do, sincerely. So thank you.

[Unidentified Senator (Senate Agriculture Committee member)]: Thank you.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Minnie, just gonna take her two minute.