Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Good morning, Center Agriculture back in action. We're going to spend some time on our S-three 23, specifically Section 10. We've taken a lot of testimony on this section and we're just trying to get it to figure out to whether we could end up having some language that we could get finished in enough time to meet crossover. We're still taking testimony. We had two folks on the agenda today, and I'm going to start off with Thomas Hand first because he's the one that had asked me to come in. And so Thomas is co founder MHG Solar. Mr. Hand, are you with us?

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: Yes, I am. Can you hear me?

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yep, we can hear you. Oh, you just woke up.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: All right.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: Can you hear me all right? I'm seeing a frozen screen.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah. If at the end of the day that it's going to keep on doing that, just shut your camera off and just that might help you with your bandwidth. But other than that, the floor is yours, sir.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: All

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: right, thank you much. So thank you for the opportunity. Sorry, I'm getting a zoom air just a moment.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We can hear you.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: Okay. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak today. My company is MHG Solar. We have developed approximately 60 megawatts of operational solar projects in Vermont over roughly the last ten years, And that represents about 10% of all in state solar. So 10% of all solar panels, generate solar generating capacity in the state. And over that time, I've had the opportunity to work with a large number of landowners. We've built projects on slate quarries, gravel pits, farm fields, and in some cases, forested land. So I'd like to start today by telling you about three farm families that I've worked with recently. First is a farmer, has worked his land for more than fifty years. Sadly, he passed away a few weeks ago after a battle with cancer. But fifty years of hard work was able to allow him to put together more than 200 acres of land, which he has now left to his daughter and his grandkids. Four years ago, my company reached an agreement with him to lease about 30 acres of his land, and that was hayfield and cornfield. Today, his family has a steady income stream of more than $30,000 a year. It's going to allow his widow, his daughter, and his grandkids to keep those 200 acres within the family if that's what they want to do. Second farm family in the middle of the state, we've leased about 25 acres of gravel pit and hayfield. I just found out two days ago that the farmer's wife had a stroke. So they're in a difficult spot, but an old gravel pit and about six acres of hay field is going to bring them about $20,000 a year of steady income. And that will last for the rest of their lives given their ages. That's real money you cannot make cutting hay and growing corn on an old gravel pit. And I mentioned this gravel pit because many gravel pits in Vermont are classified as prime ag soils. Often those agricultural soil classifications are not updated even fifty years after the fact. So when we're talking about quote unquote ag land, we're talking about gravel pits, we're talking about land in some cases that is contaminated, groundwater contamination. I have a site like that in Longford. Technically it's ag land, but it's got a prohibition on wells because it has groundwater contamination from underground storage tanks, gas and diesel tanks many years ago. Finally, I want to talk about farm family in the southern part of the state. We signed a lease with them three years ago and unfortunately the father passed away about a year ago. His wife and his sons have inherited the farm. We have yet to file permit, CPG permit on this project. We are working on it and we expect to file it shortly. But if this were to pass, it would kill that project and it would deprive that family of more than $15,000 a year of diversified income for their farm. If this legislation passes, it's going to directly harm farm families. These farm families choose to plant solar to diversify their farm income, They choose to do it with their land for the benefit of their families. You might not like their choice, but it's not your land. It's their land. They should be allowed to choose what they do with it. I've yet to hear a convincing argument why farmers can't be trusted to make their own decisions on how best to use their land. I hope anyone who votes in favor of this bill can explain why farmers can't be trusted with their own land. This bill is a kick in the teeth to farmers across Vermont. For what benefit? It certainly isn't going to protect ag land for future generations. The bill prohibits solar, but no other form of development on more than five acres of land, which practically speaking means cost effective solar will be banned in Vermont. Just to be clear, this bill prevents a farmer from having solar on their land, but allows them to pave over Primac soils and put up a convenience store in a parking lot. Once land is lost to parking lots and McMansions and convenience stores, it's never going back into ag land. You all know that.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, think you make a lot of assumptions that probably aren't true as far as with this committee. We might have just We might have just I think we lost

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: him. Lost him.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: K. But I know where you're going with that, and I agree. See if he comes back on him.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Good.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: Can you hear me?

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We can hear you. Okay.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: Thank you. Sorry about that. I don't know what happened. It just closed on me. So I'll admit I'm a bit baffled to be presenting here in the Ag Committee on this bill. Whoever drafted it clearly

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Let thinks it's going me stop you for a minute. First of all, I think you make a lot of assumptions that just aren't true about this committee and I'm not hurt by that, but I just think that you're making a lot of assumptions that just isn't the way that it is. We are going to protect Ag Land, Mr. Han. I'm going to tell you that right now. We are going to.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: I'm not trying to presume anything about you or what you're going to do. I'm talking specifically about the language in this bill.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, and we'll talk about that language in the bill and we'll work a lot of things through and we will talk about a lot of different things in this bill. Maybe we'll do something with the bill, maybe we won't do something with the bill, but there's a lot of things. But I can tell you, I can promise you this, we are going to protect ag land in the state of Vermont no matter who comes in here and wants to have their opinions about what we do or what we don't do. And that be a true story, whether it's this committee that does it or the committees can go on further. And then we know what's going on with Ag Land throughout the state of Vermont. We've heard terrifying statistics about what we've lost. We've lost 56% of our ag land since Act two fifty came into effect, which was meant to protect ag land. We've lost another 11% in the last five years. All we gotta do is start doing the math about where our farmland is and I would challenge you sir, if any of these projects that you're putting forward, did they have to be on prime agland? Were there other lands that you could put your projects on? Because I do believe the answer is yes, there is.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: So I just told you about one. It's a gravel pit,

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: right? I'm to

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: interrupt. I'm putting it there, but that counts as prime ag in Vermont.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Strain, this is this is Rob Plunkett. I'm glad you were able to to join us. And, we we've heard a little bit about a lot of different things about, specifically solar, not a lot about other, reasons why primary ag land has been, I guess, lost, or what the reasons for them are. But what I had heard was one thing you mentioned that you were just about to talk about, was that the, I guess, rating of particular soils has not been updated in fifty years. Do you have a little bit more on that? Because we saw maps of different things, not specifically, but I did not know that a gravel pit could be designated as primary agricultural soil.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: I I am not an expert in prime ag soils. I'm I'm not a farmer. I'm not a soil ecologist. I can tell you my experience having developed solar projects in Vermont. And so I can tell you about two projects in particular. I just told you about one. And then I have another one in Wallingford. It's a 50 acre parcel. It was a gravel pit for a long time, and then it had a hot mix asphalt plant on it zoned by Pike Industries. And they had underground storage tanks that leaked fuel into the ground, obviously created contamination. That was then remediated over a long period of time. But the soil maps, as I understand it, were issued at the federal level in the 1960s. And so a lot of time has passed since the 1960s. And even if the land is altered from that time till today, it doesn't mean the soil maps have been updated. And getting them updated is not an easy process. We've effectively been told that it's more or less impossible and a reasonable timeframe. So when we permit a solar project, we have to list that as prime ag land. And it shows up in our permits. It says, 18 acres of prime ag land disturbed, for example. And that might just be 18 acres of gravel pit. But I want to step back for a minute and make something really clear. This bill, as it's written, is not about protecting ag land, right? As I said, any solar project that is built is required to have a decommissioning fund. That means the project will be removed and that land can be returned to agriculture. That is not true for any other type of development in Vermont.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Nobody else is

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: putting up decommissioning money.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Can you tell if there's any projects with their hand that have done that so far? I'm not aware

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: of any because we haven't gotten to twenty five years. That's the typical lifespan of these projects.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: And, mister Anderson, is is senator Plunkett again. Just all along those lines, we we have heard about the decommissioning that it could be returned to for prior primary agricultural soil. And we've heard essentially that none have been yet, but I don't think any of us, well, some of us might see it in our lifetime, but we probably won't. But right now, let's say you had, like, I'll just say a 10 acre solar installation. How long would it take for that to to be removed and returned to the state it was before? Do you have an estimate on that?

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: Like, time wise, how long?

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Yeah. Time wise. And and just ballpark it. I know you probably don't. Yeah.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: But I mean, probably about four weeks. Okay. I mean, I'll tell you, there's a solar project that I built in Barnett last year. It was about seven acres. And it took about three years to permit. But from the day we went on-site to the day we were producing power was ten weeks to construct it. So to take it apart, yeah, I mean, couple weeks, it's not that difficult. You're just taking posts out of the ground and that steel gets reused. Pretty good portion of the project is recyclable materials.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Yeah, do you have, we've had some questions on that too.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Do you

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: have kind of details on what happens with the solar panels? And I understand you're but probably weren't prepared with that.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: So it's a solar project, right? And everyone wants to focus on the solar panels. But from a cost perspective, solar panels are maybe 20% of the total cost of the installation. We spend more money on steel racking and installing that racking than we do on solar panels. And if you look at the project from a weight perspective, there's a tremendous amount of steel. That steel all gets recycled. Steel has a lot of value. Obviously, there's a whole recycled steel market. That's a global market. We've got copper wire. Obviously, that's going to get recycled. With the solar panels in particular, the aluminum frame absolutely gets recycled. The glass top sheet, glass back sheet almost certainly get recycled. And then the individual cells, that's polysilicon, high likelihood that it gets recycled. So most the components within the solar panel get recycled. Now, to date, we have had very few projects that have been decommissioned. And so we don't have a huge industry to recycle solar panels because we simply don't have that many solar panels to recycle yet.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Great, thank you.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: And I'd like to go back in to my notes here and make one other additional comment. So this bill would effectively ban solar projects over a megawatt. Almost all the land that we look at has some prime ag or important soils component to it. And so by banning large scale solar projects and saying you can only do small ones, it doesn't say you can't do them on prime Ag, it just says they have to be under five acres. So if we switch from building solar projects that are five megawatts and cover maybe 25 or 30 acres to building a five times as many one megawatt projects, the impact is going to be the same. The only thing that will really change there is that we are gonna load a tremendous amount of additional cost onto ratepayers. And it's gonna happen in two ways. One, when you build smaller projects, they're more expensive. The permitting cost is very similar. The amount of time I have to spend on a one megawatt and a five megawatt is virtually the same from a development perspective. So we're going to create a whole bunch of solar projects that are more expensive. The other thing that's in this bill is this requirement to do a life cycle analysis to look at the carbon emissions. And this is kinda just crazy. You're essentially saying that every single solar project needs to do the same study over and over and over again. That makes no sense. NREL did this study back in 2004. There are numerous studies out there that have looked at this, looked at the carbon emissions, looked at the energy intensity of producing solar panels and building a solar array. Why would we reinvent the wheel? And all of those costs that are proposed in this bill, doing the same study over and over and over again, lighting money on fire, those are gonna get paid for by ratepayers. It's just gonna shove a ton of costs on the ratepayers for absolutely no benefit. It makes no sense whatsoever. If you want to pay to do a study that's already been done many times, tell the PUC to do it and do it one time. Why would you do it over and over and over again? It makes no sense.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Well, one reason is each project's a little different. So how one of your projects in Wallingford compared to one in another town has a dramatic different effect. Same amount of cost, maybe, and then your point, just saying it's already been done, that means there's a formula out there and it can be done rather quickly. So I don't see it as an inconvenience because in other-

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: Why though? Why are you making

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: a new building, they have to do an impact for that project.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: And I think the why is, sir, is because when you guys are putting these projects in, you are making the claims that that's what you're doing. So why would you have to prove the claims as far as what you're doing? You're talking about how what you're saving and what you're doing and all of that. Why could we fairly ask you, okay, show us that, show us what you're doing. Is what This you're is what your project's gonna do and that's how it's doing it. And I will say that we are getting a little off a topic about where we really are as a committee and what we're most concerned about, which is not regulating solar. It's really about just keeping solar off of our primag fields. That's really where we're getting at the end of the day. Can I

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: ask a question? Is it about protecting farmland or is it about keeping solar off of farmland? It's protecting primag land. Right. And solar projects are required

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: decommissioned. We to

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: have to put money up to do it. So if that's the issue, that issue has already been conclusively addressed at the PUC.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay, so the other thing is, because we're going to hear from a town that's going to be severely impacted by a project, other issue, because we are talking about it, is that you're the only industry that doesn't have to pay tax on any of the land that you're using it as you're there.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: 100% inaccurate. You are so wrong.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay, then tell us.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: Okay, And this is kind of amazing that I have to explain this, but I will do it.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: Hold on, hold on.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: Can we lower the temperature in here? No,

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: no, no. No, No, I no. Come in here and we're trying to solve a problem. And we're trying to do this in a way that satisfied both communities. There's no reason Mr. Hand, hold on. There's no reason want to interrupt and to and to how about this? How about listening to to what we have to say? Because we're listening to what you had to say. Alright? We're just trying to solve it solve a situation. No reason to be adversary at all. At all. And and so the the the the the remarks, the snide remarks, it it's not it's not helpful. Okay? I mean, we we we will do in the best interest of Vermonters in the end. So what we need from you is to give us the data, to give us your information, and that's it. And then we'll make a final decision. But please, please do not be adversary because we're not. Thank

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Okay, mister chair. Yes.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: I appreciate that.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: And and mister Ann, this is this is senator Blunkett. I wanna apologize. The the, the hearing that we had just before now did get rather contentious. This committee is not usually like this, and I know you've reached out to me to ask to testify, and I had expected it to go a lot more cordial than it has. I think it will from now on, but I just wanted to let you know that if I had known it would have gone like this, I would have kind of given you more of a heads up. So I think we did have a question where you're going to explain about the property taxes for solar institutions.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: Yes. Thank you. I and and I apologize. I I'm heated on this because this bill appears to be in my perspective, aimed at killing solar in Vermont. And it's something I've worked at very hard for more than a decade. So property tax, land under a solar array is taxed the same way it was before that solar array showed up. Now there is one exception. If that land was in current use, you have to remove it from current use and pay a penalty before you install the solar. So let's say we have a piece of land. You are referring to one in Lowell. So in that case, I'm just gonna make up a number. Let's say that that parcel is assessed at $250,000. We would pay property tax on that land at a value of $250,000 We would then also pay property tax in the form of the uniform capacity tax, dollars 4 per kw of installed capacity That goes to the state education fund. We also will pay property tax on the solar array to the town based upon an assessed value of the solar array. So there are three types of tax. One is very specific, just the land tax under the solar array. There is then the educational component of the property tax, which is paid to the state. And then there is the local portion of property tax on the solar array, which is paid to the town. So there are three types of tax. The land is absolutely taxed and it's taxed at if the case is that we bought it, then it's taxed at whatever we buy it at. If it's leased, then it's taxed as if that land was before. Nothing changes.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Yeah.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: Mr. Hannon, I had a question. Earlier, you mentioned a couple of examples where farming family received revenue from, having a solar array put on their ag land. In one case, I think you mentioned $30,000 a year, and another was $15,000 a year. Is that per person in the family or is that one payment? And for how long a period of time does that either 30 ks or 15 ks get paid?

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: Yeah, so those are payments that those are annual payments to the landowner. And the amount varies just kind of based on the value of the land and how much land. So in the case of the 30,000, that was for roughly twice as many acres as the 15,000. So different size project. So different value to to the amount of or different amount of land that we were using, therefore different amount of lease payment. Typically, those agreements are for twenty five or more years.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: Okay. And is that something that value differently if it was a gravel pit versus you mentioned in one case you were on hayfield, pasture land, whatever, or were they growing crops on it at one time?

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: I don't know whether they were in that case, it was we have about 18 acres of gravel pit and about six acres of farm field. I don't know whether it was in row crops, you know, corn or something at present. And when we showed up, it was a hayfield.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Okay, thank you. And I

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: would say, generally speaking, you know, I've talked to a lot of farmers and I've talked to a lot of landowners, we will often approach a landowner. So take the first example I gave, they have 200 acres, We approached them and said, we'd like to do a solar project in this field. And they said, nope, absolutely not. Can't do that field. We need that field. That is our best field for growing corn. But we have this other field over here. We looked at it and said, well, it's not perfect for us, but we could make that field work. When we talk to a farmer, it's not like we walk up and just say, that's the field and we'll take it. These guys know which fields are their most productive, and they will decide ultimately, they'll say, I can't do that one. That's my best field for corn, but I could offer you this one over here. And we'll look at it, and ultimately you either come to a deal or you don't. But these guys know what portions of their land they want to keep in production and which portions they could allow to have solar for one generation and then take it back out.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: Okay, thank you.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Very helpful.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Mr. Hammond, would it be possible for you to, have some of the farmers reach back out to us? Just to, to say how, what you've done has helped them out and, because that'll go a long ways too when deciding how to move forward on this. I can certainly ask. Mean,

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: obviously Well, don't have an

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: idea of who you have for customers. That's why I'm asking you specific. Yeah.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: Yeah. I mean, I'm certainly willing to ask. I would also I don't know what they'll say, right? I mean, generally speaking, most people don't want to put themselves in the crosshairs of government.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, I'm gonna cross here, Richard Young. We really, really don't. Just their testimony. Just their testimony.

[Senator Robert Plunkett (Member)]: And I trust that Senator Heffernan is not suggesting that you're lying to us, Mr. Hand.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: No, I am not. I want this Senator Heffernan. I actually want to get people that have solar fields on, what they're, how they are now. Yes, I made the right decision. It's very helpful. Happy I did it. No, didn't. The benefit wasn't as good as I was hoping. Actual testimony on if what they did was the right choice. And I think that's a fair question. I'm not trying to figure

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: Oh yeah, no, I'm not suggesting it's unfair. I'm just saying I'll ask them, but I don't know the answers.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: I can't promise you that I appreciate it.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Mr. Hand, you brought up a very good point about what we've talked about in further talks of how we move this forward. And I'll use the example. You have a farm family that's got 1,000 acres, two fifty acres of its prime. They have seven fifty acres that isn't prime ag land but they might have pastured cows in the day that they couldn't really grow crops on but they could still work. And what we're doing is exactly kind of how you laid out the farmers saying and we're and we have been very sensitive to telling farmers what they can do with their land, but we are also asking that we look at some of the lands that isn't prime ag land that you can't really grow crops on, that used to pasture cows, it was good enough to do that. And it might be a little bit harder to build on, but that we push you towards those areas more than prime ag land because we understand primag gland usually is easier to build on. We understand that it's going to be less costly. We do two things by pushing you off onto other lands. First is that you stay off the prime ag lands as we've talked about, but second of all, we actually help the farmers by making land that's less valuable to them, little bit more valuable, and maybe that they could get a little bit more money for some land that isn't as valuable as that prime ag land. I hope that makes a little sense to you because you kind of laid that out as well.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: Yeah, I understand you're saying. I guess I would say the definitions of the various soil classifications start to get very, very important in the way you laid it out there. So I think that that's an area that absolutely should be looked into. I would expect that you, if you want to go that way, my suggestion would be you need to get some testimony, and it's not me, I don't know who it is, but you ought to get some testimony on the various types of ag classifications, and think about that very seriously. Because the prime ag, just as a catchall, grabs a tremendous amount of land. In many cases, it would fit the description you said, which is it's not very good for growing crops, maybe was used for pasturing cattle or something like that. But I think you really gotta look into that to understand what you're catching in your definition.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We did take some secondary testimony on it when we were talking to a watershed alliance and they had said that, Hey, yes, we have solar on our land and it's not on the fields that we're growing crops. Two examples of, one of them was up in a corner of a field across the fence and that it really wasn't anything that they could grow anything on and they weren't using the land anymore, we put a solar array there. The other one actually was a little bit of prime ag land, but it was across the railroad tracks between the railroad tracks and the river, and the railroad said, we really are very nervous about you crossing with your farm implements over and over and over again. And so they were sensitive to that and they ended up putting the solar array on that land in itself, which was again prime ag land, but it made a little bit more sense and it solved two problems, if not more than that, as far as where they cited. We're just looking for some reasonableness of some of the decisions that we've been made and not say that it's unreasonable, probably bad choice of words on my part.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: Yeah, and I think that description, what you just described is an extremely common scenario, right? The location of a, say you got 10 acres of prime ag. Well, if there's no farmer within 10 miles of it, who's growing corn, know, has got dairy cattle or something, it's gonna be pretty hard to farm that, right? It needs to be nearby a farm. And so many of the farmers that we've worked with, they have many fields that they work. And often what they'll say to us, and this is what's going on in Lowell. Mean, you've got a field that's being used just for hay, It's not being used for row crops and the farm family decided that they would rather sell that field than try to actively farm it. So that property was on the market and we didn't pick it because it was prime ag, we picked it because it was next to a substation and the farm family that owned it wanted to sell it because it didn't work for them anymore.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, think you've led us right into the next part of our segment. We do have Jennifer Blay from the select board chair of Lowell. Mrs. Blay, are you on the line?

[Jennifer Blay (Chair, Lowell Selectboard)]: Yes, I am.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: How are you?

[Jennifer Blay (Chair, Lowell Selectboard)]: Great. Is Thomas still talking? Because I see his mic's still on, so I was just checking.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: You are the floor is yours.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: Okay.

[Jennifer Blay (Chair, Lowell Selectboard)]: So I, as well as Thomas, was surprised to be asked to speak to the Senate Ag Committee because I'm a middle school science teacher living in Lowell. And I'm currently the select board chair for the town of Lowell, which is what I'm here speaking on. I am at the school trying to be away from students while winter carnival is going on. So if there's any interruptions, I apologize.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We understand.

[Jennifer Blay (Chair, Lowell Selectboard)]: I'm like, I'm on the clock. So I've been watching. So to be honest, when we talk about farming, Thomas shared about other people. My entire family history goes back to farming because I think most of us do. I was born and raised in the Northeast Kingdom. I had family immigrate here from Shakutami, Quebec in 1912 for a longer growing season. Actually, that is stated in some of my historical genealogy. And farming, my husband's family came from farming. They were actually farmed out as kids to work for others. Didn't get to live at home because the families were so large. So definitely know a little bit about what we see around here in the Northeast Kingdom and deep respect for farmers. That's probably what made it so hard in the town of Lowell for the Select Board to even stand against the solar project because the Raboin family is probably one of the most revered families in our community because they have farmed that land for so long and taken care of it. And they've also shared that land with all of us. Sorry, I might get teary eyed. So they go above and beyond to be there for other people. And their barn burnt several years ago, and actually the community raised funds to make sure that they were taken care of and things were done. Anyway, and I work and talk about small communities, and I guess how interconnected everything is. I work at the school with one of the granddaughters of that family. So it becomes really tricky to fight a fight knowing that you're fighting the very people that you work with and live with and care about, and they deserve the funding that they're getting out of this deal with Thomas. It is a piece of property that the father passed away and the kids are of an age they'd like to retire, they would see great benefit from the money Thomas is offering. Everything I really heard Thomas talk about with solar development is the amount of money farmers can make from these deals. We had someone in town while it was for sale offer this family double the value, the market value that we had recorded in the town ledgers that it was being taxed at. And then Thomas, I believe, was able to offer about three times what that was worth. And so of course, that's their retirement. That's what they're going to take away from their years of work with that land. So that makes it, I guess, in part for the town really hard to fight. So we didn't even attempt to fight it in the first forty five days. One, because of lack of knowledge, because we are a sleepy little town of about a thousand people and not much tends to happen here in Lowell. I work full time job as well as the other select board members. And we just get together to manage the budget and the roads and any other small things that come up. We have something with a deadline of the forty five days. We we actually missed that window entirely. And then I started to talk to people and realized that we had a bed and breakfast that was closing that bordered that property because they didn't feel they had a voice in our community, not because we're hard to live with, but they revered the Reboyans and they said, if this is what they want to do with their life, we don't want to look at it, we don't want to be up against it, and we don't want to fight with them, so we're going to leave. So that bed and breakfast, they closed, they sold to somebody else already within this PUC process. I've had to learn a lot. The PUC language is not easy, the Public Utility Commission. I feel the solar companies have a definite advantage when going to the table because they bring the same experts multiple times. When I was looking at the different testimonies, they've they've been in many of the same cases together. So I had about six weeks to gather testimony and evidence, and I cannot find an expert witness available or willing to testify because I don't have the funds to pay them. I don't have people who live in my community who have the same knowledge and skills. I can't afford the lawyer that we would need to speak the language of the PUC. Everything has to be written in a certain way. When I finally learned how to write discovery and I got back responses from Thomas Hand's lawyer, there was a lot of language in there that I didn't understand about how many objections they could have and all the reasons why what I was asking was vague or inadequate or not willing to heard and. And so I'm fighting a fight I don't understand the reason the select board chose to fight that fight was because it doesn't align with our town plan or vision statement or our goals and objectives, And if I read to you the vision statement for our town that never thought they'd be in a battle like this, it's our primary and fundamental intention of Lowell to remain a rural agricultural town that encourages farming and a town that encourages individual businesses and entrepreneurship of a scale that can integrate harmoniously into its residential areas. So farming and agriculture is huge. This piece of property has been farmed since nineteen o two. It is surrounded on all sides by homes and properties. So it is in the middle. It is not in our considered our village because when we identified our village as a town, that farmland has been farmed since 1902. So we labeled it rural and right across the road is the school. And so our school is considered village. So Thomas is able to say to the PUC that it's not in the village center, but it is right across from the school. The kids are there sledding today. It may be their last opportunity to sled on the hill. He said that they can continue to do that, but with 14,000 solar panels going over there and being fenced in, I'm not really sure that's probably a good idea for the kids. So it's also, I heard you guys speak a little bit to the amount of loss of farmland as I've been delving deep into this and realizing how many towns lose against the PUC. I say lose because I'm fighting a fight that the town can't afford the lawyer because our taxes just were increased because we just went through our new tax assessments and people came out saying, we can't afford the fact that our taxes just doubled to now hire a lawyer for a case we don't think we're going to win because the towns don't win when they go to the PUC. And I actually looked up the record, The towns don't win anymore because they can't win on aesthetics and prime ag land wasn't supposed to be used really for soil can't even speak for solar. In my mind, it was supposed to be Brownfields to get the major credits. I did hear Thomas speak to that. I mean, have an asbestos mine. That would be a great site in my mind for a solar field, even though the problem with that is you're stirring up the asbestos. And so they're worried about it being airborne. However, that's an entire area. We have no problem with renewable energy in our community. We currently have the wind towers. They cover a section of our mountains. And I'm a person who lives in the mountains, always have, and surrounded by them. I hike them on the long trail and I value our space and we actually generate enough power for 26,000 homes with those wind towers that are already here that divided our town. And when people talk about the division, I moved here about the time that the solar panels went into place, and people still talk about it, argue about it, family are still divided over it. And when I look at the solar project and the idea, when it talks about entrepreneurship and businesses harmoniously being with the residents, it's surrounded by homes. We ask people to come out and vote not about how they felt about solar, but about if they would fund a lawyer because I felt that I was sinking and not able to hold my own in this case, and that there were too many people and at stake, right? Too many big issues. And I didn't want to divide the town because it's really hard when you serve your community that you want to serve everybody. You want to serve the farmer who has a right to sell their land. You want to serve the people who have a right to have a view and to not have their home. I have Doug Manning. His house is built to oversee that entire field. And now 14,000 solar panels could potentially be angled towards his house every morning because the sun rises over his house and then moves away. The kids across, you know, we I I come to work every morning. I work at the school. And when I leave my car, that's the view I see, right, is the field there. And to speak about the loss of the farmland, I was really surprised how much we've lost. And then I started looking at the grasslands, and the field is definitely considered a grassland habitat. That's something different that wasn't really talked about. And I had an offer, so I've been digging into grassland habitat and the fact that there's only 4% in the state of Vermont. So when we look at the birds and the different things that like live there, that habitat is being reduced substantially. And I know Thomas feels that solar is under attack, but those large solar arrays do tend to go on large open spaces such as grasslands and farm farmers lands because it's one of the only open spaces. So when you guys asked about I know I'm jumping around. There's just a lot to say, and I know I'm under limited time.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Beautiful. Fine.

[Jennifer Blay (Chair, Lowell Selectboard)]: When you talk about soil, I actually was researching how it actually impacts the soil. And I have a quote that I would like to read, and this quote came from the NVDA, which is the Northern Northeast Vermont Regional Development Plan, and they talk about the soil and the impact. So soil is influenced by the organic matter that's deposited on the surface, which we all know, like we're constantly trying to put some cow manure or different types of things on there to create good organic matter with our compost. The organisms that exist within it, it's combination with parent materials. Within soils, organisms and fungi provide food for animals, create organic matter for more efficient vegetative production. This vegetative layer in turn helps to purify surface water. So when I was thinking about the farmland, not only is it a grassland habitat that's declining significantly, but those soils that the farmers have been farming for years, we are one of the state, we're like, I think we're a great state. I mean, have such clean water. So when I think about our water, part of it's in due fact from the farmers who are farming that soil and making it so rich and so that it has a way to be filtered. And so with the solar panels, I am under the understanding that in order to preserve the Primag land so that it can be used later, they peel off the top layer of the soil and they pile it so that it's not impacted. But then I'm thinking if you're piling the top layer of soil, you're removing what's actually gonna help purify and keep our water clean. We're gonna pile it so that it's good later on after twenty five or thirty years, which then none of the stuff that's in it is gonna survive in my mind. And then it leads you to soil compaction. And what I got on soil compaction was really interesting. This also comes from page 181 of the NVDA. I'll tell you some really good heavy reading in there. They've done a great job with how to preserve the Northeast Kingdom. So it says compacted soil, which occurs naturally as well as through land development and industrial processes. And I heard Thomas speak about all the steel and what they're going to be doing with the land, makes it more difficult for water to be absorbed. This creates two changes to the soil formation process. First, water cannot flow through the soils in order to leach contaminated particles. Second, it creates erosion and carries away soil. As discussed underwater resources, erosion contributes to flooding and removal of productive topsoil, distribution of chemicals on the soil, and sedimentation of surface water. So as I read that, I'm not a scientist, but I am a middle school science teacher. It doesn't sound like what we'll be doing out there with that soil compaction. I have to think about, it's not a flood zone at all, but the Laclore Brook runs through a section of it that he's already said if he gets his permit, wants to do something with culverts and moving water. So I have to now worry about the LaClere Brook and people who have properties near there. I have to consider the people who have wells and springs nearby. Part of this project sits on the source water protection for my school, and I've been told there'll be no impact. However, we've peeled back layers of soil. We're creating soil impaction, you know, compaction. And I've been told not to worry, but then I read articles about PFAS, which he said it's not about the solar panels. And I guess they're changing the way solar panels are developed, and they're coming up with newer and better ways. I really hope that's the case. However, I keep asking what kind of solar panels that he's using, and he can't say because he has to wait until after he gets the permit in order to buy them. So then I can't really put it in my argument about how good or bad the solar panels are for our environment. And I know he spoke a lot about money. And I know that the bottom line really does come down to money all the time, because we have to make things affordable. It hasn't been affordable for the farmers. I've lived here my whole life and I've raised my children here. And I think two or three family sides of mine, I go back five, six generations in the Northeast Kingdom Of Vermont. When I go to Westfield Cemetery, I have five generations of family buried there. I live here. So Thomas lives in Oregon, and Thomas is a solar developer who does business here because we want renewable energy in Vermont. I applaud us for our efforts, but I also don't think that using all of our farmland and having nothing left after is really what's best. We're not going to have great water, we're not going to have any grassland. And it's funny, I never cared about birds as much as I've been learning to care about them recently. I went to the Amazon Rainforest in 2024. And when I was there, I worked with Cornell University and we were looking at birds and how they actually tell the health of your land by what's living there, and because they can actually be a way for you to tell how healthy your environment is. And that's actually something they're doing in the Amazon is they're actually tracking in the rainforests where they were cut down. They're tracking the bird habitat and how it's coming back into those forests. And so when I came back to school, I started taking my kids outside and we started looking at the birds, studying birds, and realizing that we have bobolinks here, which I had never realized that bobolinks are definitely an identified track bird in Vermont. We actually Jennifer,

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: can repeat that? You have what?

[Jennifer Blay (Chair, Lowell Selectboard)]: Bird is called a bobolinks.

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: A bobolinks. Okay. I just I didn't catch I didn't catch what kind of bird.

[Jennifer Blay (Chair, Lowell Selectboard)]: Yeah. I appreciate that. The bobolinks, when I the reason why I bring it up is because they actually found them in the grassland habitat across the road from the school, which is the primary ag land. And it was told to me that even though there was mating pair found there, that as long as we mitigate and we do our work to preserve farmland somewhere else, we can use this farmland and not care about the birds here. And I don't know, I guess a part of me as a middle school science teacher who got to see Jane Goodall before she died, a lot of really cool things I've had a chance to do. It just sticks with me that, you know, what we do matters. Everything we do matters. And you guys are part of a board that I don't trying really hard not to be emotional. I I had a hard time knowing I was gonna speak today. When I went to the Amazon, I thought I was in the middle of nowhere. Right? And that I was going to go to this vast open space. And somebody told me that somebody that nowhere is everybody somewhere. Well, I live in the middle of nowhere. I feel like a nobody because I live in a town of a thousand people, but it's my somewhere. So I care deeply about it. And I appreciate your time.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I'll just ask this and I want to talk to Mr. Hand again. What is the town's position on this project and have any if they're against it or for it?

[Jennifer Blay (Chair, Lowell Selectboard)]: So there has not been a town vote on their position because I really didn't want put neighbor against neighbor and have arguments devolving, like having it be the way it was with the wind. And to my understanding, the town residents don't actually have a say. The town select board has a chance to argue their points at the PUC level, the Public Utility Commission, with interveners, and we currently have six interveners. We have three landowners. We have a cemetery because it goes back to 1812. We have the the select board and the school. All have become interveners. And when we did a vote, we voted on whether or not the select board could spend additional funds that we did not have in our budget for a lawyer. I will say I had more people turn out for that vote than have ever turned out at town meeting. We had it was 86 to 86, so a 170. I'm not that good at math today. So a 178 people came out and it was a tie. A tie vote. 86 wanted us to fight against it and the other 86 did not. And it wasn't that they didn't want us to fight against it, they didn't want to spend the money. I don't know where they stood personally on the solar issue. So I can't speak to that specifically. I will say that when I became elected as a select board member, I think there was about 60 votes cast. So meaning when we meet as a town, usually there's 80 to a 100 of us in a room. So know the a 170. Right? I said 86, 86. So a 174. My numbers are off seed. I told you. I don't I don't I don't have my numbers written down. I'm I'm one of

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: those Don't don't make me do math on the spot.

[Jennifer Blay (Chair, Lowell Selectboard)]: I was like, oh goodness.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So, well, we wanna thank you, for your testimony, and, very much so. Again, we're not sure where we're going to be going on all this stuff. What we're doing, as Senator Major said eloquently a little while ago, we are just taking some testimony. Mr. Hand, are you still with us?

[Senator Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: Yes,

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: I am.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Mr. Hand, just one question. I've never asked this question before of anyone, but do you have to do the three acre rule mitigation with the State of Vermont? Do you have to devise a plan for three acre rules of stormwater runoff?

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: I don't know what the three acre rule is. Okay,

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I would take that as a no because you would know.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: Well, hold We absolutely have to have stormwater permits. We have a construction stormwater permit. We have an operational stormwater permit if required. Operational stormwater is triggered if you have more than one acre. I think the three acres you're referring to is maybe how it used to be because it came down to one acre.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah, you have three acres of impervious surface, and I don't know if they're counting solar panels as impervious surface, but.

[Thomas Hand (Co-founder, MHG Solar)]: If we have more than one acre of impervious, we're required to have an operational stormwater permit. So that's an ongoing permit for the life of the project. Every think every solar project they've ever done, we have to have a construction stormwater permit that's different than the operational phase. So I think the answer to your question is yes, we very much have to comply with stormwater rules.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay, we're going to have to run. We want to thank both of you for coming in. Very great testimony on both sides. We appreciate it very, very much.

[Jennifer Blay (Chair, Lowell Selectboard)]: Thank you.