Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Speaker 0]: It's not.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We're back in action. It's under agriculture. We are going to talk with some farmers on whatever they want to talk about, about our miscellaneous ag bill. And who would like to lead off?

[Speaker 0]: Karen's going go first. Who's that? Karen.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay, Karen, floor is yours.

[Karen Killeen (Killeen Crossroads Farm, Shelburne)]: Thank you, Chair. About how much time do I have? Just so I can time it Well,

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: you've got about seven of you who would like to speak, five to seven of you who'd like to speak. So if you get off on a tangent, Senator Major will pull you back in.

[Karen Killeen (Killeen Crossroads Farm, Shelburne)]: Thank you. I don't usually do that, but I can keep my comments to about six or seven minutes and

[Speaker 0]: happy

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: to Thank answer

[Karen Killeen (Killeen Crossroads Farm, Shelburne)]: you for having me. My name is Karen Killeen. I co own with my wife, Brianna, the Killeen Crossroads Farm. We were founded in 2019 at the intersection of Dorset Streets and Cheese Factory Road in Shelburne, Vermont. We're right there on the corner with a big red barn and quite a bit

[Sen. Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: of

[Karen Killeen (Killeen Crossroads Farm, Shelburne)]: vegetable production. You may have observed our growth in those production beds, our greenhouses. We do pasture raised chicken, beef, cattle, and our farm stand. You may have also observed our twin five year olds running down the driveway or riding in the tractors with us. We employ three farmers and our business revenue has grown to several $100,000 over about five years. We're also a co founding member of the AgriHood Collective, which is a mission driven nonprofit that aims to promote regenerative agricultural practices, land stewardship, and access to farmers. We're excited to partner with organizations like Bread and Butter Farm and the Vermont Land Trust in this endeavor. But what I'm here to talk about today is a little bit of a dissonance in the state's promotion of accessory on farm businesses. We had a particular issue with the prior Act 181 that I wanna talk about, which allows for construction of farm improvements, specifically related to educational events that can drive additional accessory on farm revenue. So what I understand from the legislative intent is that if you wish to try to allow for local farms to step out of local land use zoning for the construction of improvements for accessory on farm businesses for things like the storage or sale of qualifying products or other enumerated products in that legislation. And the legislation that was revised not too long ago says that there's no permit or permit amendment required for the construction of improvements for an accessory on farm business for the preparation or processing of qualified products. And that's the crux of the limitation for our business expansion. You go on to talk about provided that more than 50% of the total annual sales and so on and so on. The percentage isn't the problem for us. Those are good changes as they were done. But these exemptions don't apply to the construction of improvements related to hosting events or farm stays as part of that accessory on farm business. This restriction creates hardship for making farm improvements for food based educational activities. So we've got the agency of ag actively writing about promoting and talking about how farms like ours should seek alternative revenue streams to become more viable. Cause trust me, it's brutally difficult for a small farm to make it selling Calabria or red lettuce. We need additional revenue streams to be above board, but we're not allowed to construct facilities to do that under the legislation. I cannot construct a kitchen to produce those value added products and run educational activities through that kitchen, the way the current law is written. The legislative mandate, really as I understand it, is to kind of what you're trying to do is create more opportunities for farmers to have accessory on farm businesses, including educational, recreational, or social events that feature agricultural practices or products, like tastings and so on. But we can't create a facility for that educational purpose. So it's gap that really hamstrings us. I want to be really clear because I want to be fair to my neighbors. We're not interested in hosting weddings. We don't want to do conferences. I don't want to host circuses, barn dances, light shows, or anything like that. We'd like to host cooking classes. We'd like to show people how to take products produced core crops produced on a farm and how to use them in their meal preparation. It literally is the extension of farm to table that makes a difference in people's lives. So we wanna expand into the educational realm. We think there's probably some additional revenue to make there that would help our farm, but we're hamstrung because of this intersection with AOFB and the way the permitting process is allowed for. So specifically, really what we'd like to do is create an on farm kitchen that allows for some seating where we could host small events that show people through cooking lessons and demonstrations how to prepare food to become active participants in that educational activity, to taste the food, and then we would have some sort of fee associated with it that would make it all make more sense. That's the gist of what I wanted to talk about. And I'm happy to provide examples of where I think the law could be augmented a little bit without widening it out too far. Because I think it's okay, and it's in the spirit of the legislative intent to modify the AOFB rules to allow for farms to become educationally related businesses, but still guard against what could happen, which is the proliferation of farms as sort of broad social recreational or private event spaces. But that I think would be personally incongruent with their surroundings. So that's the kind of gap that I'm talking about that I think some mild revision would allow for.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We've got a couple senators who want to jump in on this discussion. I don't want to steal with anyone else want to say, but we're going to take some testimony on this next week. Senator Major is actually setting up, so I think that it would be valuable if we could probably have you come in again and talk about that at that same time, but I'll cede the floor to my senators.

[Sen. Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: Well, I'm all set up.

[Speaker 0]: Verbiage, have you drafted up some verbiage that you may think would help us do what you're thinking?

[Karen Killeen (Killeen Crossroads Farm, Shelburne)]: I did. I shared it last year with Senator Hinsdale, who tried to move it. I'm not exactly sure where it ended on the wall and on the table. If

[Speaker 0]: you would, just send it to If

[Sen. Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: you can send it to this committee, that'd great.

[Karen Killeen (Killeen Crossroads Farm, Shelburne)]: Yes, Senator Major, I'd be happy to do that. And I think it's some mild tweaks that'll open up some opportunities without being too loose. I have neighbors I really care about and like I said, I want to be careful there. Yep.

[Sen. Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: I appreciate it. I'm sorry. No, it's too early to do. You know, it's threading a bit of a deal here and we want to make sure that you're able to find some auxiliary revenue. So, and this entire committee, but we're going up against other committees trying to do that. If you could send that to us and there will be some negotiations. What we're going to do,

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Garrett, is I doubt that anything's going get resolved this year. But what we have done as a committee, and we kept it on the forefront all season long, and we kept this discussion going on it, and we're gonna have another good long discussion about this next week at some point in time, we'll make sure we reach out. Because as what happens in this building, if you don't keep the discussion going, nothing happens and the longer you keep the discussion going, the more people you pull in, the more people you pull in, the more people you pull in. This isn't made to make you feel better in any way. We it's, we wanna do this. We really, really do. And I do feel that there will be a path forward. We just, we gotta keep the discussions going and we gotta keep talking about it. And we're gonna, like I said, we're gonna have another good discussion about that this year. We'll see again, as we understand where you wanna be, it seems like it should be simpler than what it is. A very powerful force is working against us, but that's okay. That's okay. We've overcome a lot years past on different subjects and this is something that isn't going to go away.

[Karen Killeen (Killeen Crossroads Farm, Shelburne)]: I understand. I appreciate the support and certainly giving us the audience for this. I know my colleague, Becky Castle is also present and can hit on some of these themes from their angle as well. We're all I think we're all trying to make prudent adjustments that allow us to diversify our farm revenues as really any business would in an unrestricted zoning environment. We're just constrained left and right from doing that. And challenging in this current environment.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: No, I understand totally.

[Sen. Joe Major (Vice Chair)]: And you're not alone. I mean, obviously throughout the state, know, farmers are trying to do this, we just, as chair said, we just need to keep this at the forefront. And even if it doesn't come to fruition this session, we will continue to work for

[Speaker 0]: Super. Good, who's next?

[Karen Killeen (Killeen Crossroads Farm, Shelburne)]: Thank you.

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: Should I sit there? Hi.

[Speaker 0]: Hi.

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: Thanks so much for inviting me. My name is Becky Castle, and my husband Bob Clark and I started and own Fisher Brothers Farm in Shelburne, Vermont. We're actually around one of our neighbors from Kieran and Briana. We started our farm in 2014, and literally, we have had just about every regulatory roadblock that you can imagine and it's been very frustrating and very costly. I feel like I should give you a little context for the business that we've built and then I'll go into specific adjustments that I think need to happen to S-three twenty three, but then also talk a little bit about the broader context of I think what needs to happen in agriculture in Vermont to make it successful. So, we right now have about 40,000 grow feet of fruit. Last year we produced tens of thousands of pounds of We use it primarily in our own product, so we developed, I think, an increasingly popular brand called Sisters Banner Key Ice Cream, to get our ice cream sandwiches and cafe. We sell that ice cream in about 300 locations throughout New England. We do 150 catered events annually. We ship our ice cream nationwide, and we actually started producing our own dry ice, both to preserve our fruit and also to ship the ice cream. That dry ice is used by other agricultural and food businesses, so I think we've become a really integral part of the food system in Vermont. What else? We also make wellness syrups and we started a bakery last year to use even more of our fruit and value added products. Specifically on 03/23, right now I think in section six, it says something about 50% of the product that you're creating has to come from your farm and there's proposal to adjust that to up to $230,000 can come from another farm.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Two fifty.

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: Two fifty. Think that you should just make it four. Like, why not say 50% of the product comes from your farm or 230,000? Like, why make it more restrictive and more difficult for farms to operate? Plus, we've been operating under the impression that it's 50%. So, if you change it, then all of a sudden we hit the threshold before we need to hit it. So, a simple or would accommodate that change. I think the other problem with how the accessory on farm business, building for an accessory on farm business works is that you might not need a permit to build the building, but then in the process of getting the health department permit, we were flagged by the ANR for needing an approved wastewater system. We have now been in the process for fourteen months trying to get an updated wastewater permit from the ANR. It's been miserable and expensive. We've had probably eight meetings with their lower level staff and the ANR leadership and we don't see a way out of it at this point. We spent tens of thousands of dollars on engineering from a very well respected firm, Baumann Engineering. The permit application was rejected The ANR wouldn't provide us guidance exactly on what they wanted, and their answer was, We'll hire an engineer to resubmit the proposal. Hence, we refused. We've already spent our WAD on engineering, and we're not gonna hire another one because the ANR, what it should be is like a collaborative process where you work with the ANR and they say, okay, well, maybe you need a grease trap or maybe you need this. It shouldn't just be the default thing is that the ANR is like, you need a $100,000 pretreatment system, when in fact, on our very busiest week of the year, we're using 700 gallons of wastewater that feeds into our four chamber septic mount that we're using one chamber. I think the other issue, I know this isn't specific to the miscellaneous ag bill, but I think it gets at the frustration that so many farmers have. Working with the ANR and Act two fifty is a totally okay process. I have no idea how it works. I actually live in fear of both entities because you're sort of at their mercy, but they don't provide any guidance, and also things are very inconsistently applied. Then the last thing that I want to say is that farming in Vermont is like, you feel like you're beating your head against the wall because there's constant erosion of the value of rural farmland. They can slap a tier three designation on you at the state level. You can have forest blocks and wildlife corridors slapped on at the local level in Shelburne. Since the time we've owned our property, if you want to subdivide a lot, you have to designate 40% as open land, now 60% as open land, and pretty soon you turn around and this asset on your balance sheet is worth a lot less, and guess what? That means you have less access to capital because you're borrowing against the land. We have got to figure out a way to not erode the value of rural land. Just feel like it's stealing. That's the only way to look at it. Know you guys aren't committee that passed

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: it's very valuable.

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: 01/1981 or '59, but it's not temple. Literally, once a week, my husband and I are like, Let's put a sign at the end of the driveway and sell this. We wouldn't even be selling the business, we'd just be selling the land. We're in the middle of Shelburne. I can guarantee you just a 13,000,000 house, a $13,000,000 house would go on that land, not a farm.

[Speaker 0]: Sure.

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: Which I'm like, fine with, because if I can just get out of this with some money in my pocket, that will make me happy. But right now, we're pretty unhappy because it's very, very frustrating on a daily basis, especially with the cost structure of Vermont.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, I just want to say that I've heard so much about you and I wish we were meeting on better circumstances because I hear so many great things about you. Oh, that's great. It is. I've heard over and over and over again, Have you met Sisters of Anatomy? Have you met?

[Speaker 0]: Have you met? Have you met?

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Have you tried their ice cream? Have you done that? I think that these sessions are very valuable for us to hear, And I just can't tell you enough. That's not falling on deaf ears, and things move slow, but we work hard, and I think that, as we've said, kind of what we've said already is that you need to hear it, and then you need to move forward, you need to keep on talking about it, and you need

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: to keep

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: on involving more people, and I think the biggest sin would be to be that you made that decision to put that sign at the end of the road before we could see something through. I hope that doesn't happen. I hope that we can do something sooner than that.

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: Yeah. I hope so too. And my husband and I are totally willing to come anytime to the State House and talk to anybody about whatever topic related to our business and how regulation affects it.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, going to have a day. We haven't decided yet. We'll work with Linda and Senator Mangers working on an agenda, Mhmm. And maybe Karen and you could come back in on that day. We'll give you guys time to to look at in your schedules, and and we'll talk some more about it. I think it's I think it's very important, folks. It's very important that we keep the discussion going. If we stop, it stops.

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: Yeah.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: And so, you gotta be heard.

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: Yeah. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate the

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Can I ask one more question? What do I remember about your dry ice that you ran into a real huge problem with your dry ice trying to get that going?

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: Wasn't getting it going, so we had planned on putting in dry ice because we use it to both freeze our fruit, so post harvest handling, and also to move our product to transport it, which are totally, you know, the remote agricultural practices, we're able to put the dry ice in place. But because we got put into the Act two fifty, or not the Act two fifty, the ANR Navigator that flagged Act two fifty looking at us, and because we sell our dry ice, which is

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: the thing. Aren't one of the few people that We're sell dry

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: the only producer of dry ice in the state of Vermont, and the only people we sell it to, the Agency of Agriculture for the Mosquito Disease Surveillance, is our biggest customer. The reason they became a customer was the other dry ice company in Massachusetts, NETI, one day, and I think it was the 2022, was like, you know what, we're not going to deliver to Vermont anymore because we don't have enough capacity right now, so we're dumping you. So, less than a week, started delivering to the Agency of Agriculture. We provide dry ice to biologics firm that makes custom blood protein for global research. They use our dry ice to ship their blood protein around the world. We sell to Farmers To You, which takes products from 80 different farms in the state and brings it to Massachusetts and Boston. So, it's like a critical piece of the agricultural infrastructure. We just recently sold dry ice to a farm that was using it for humane, non pesticide pest control to kill rats in their barn wall. We sell to other meat companies and food companies that want to ship their dry ice frozen. Act two fifty says that we need to have an Act two fifty permit because we're selling the dry ice. My position is, with the way I read Act two fifty, it's already like, we've made this because it's a required, we're allowed to do it under required agricultural practices, and to me, it's a strategic resource. Why are we gonna make it more difficult for us? We'd have to hire a lawyer. Who knows if they would prove it? And it's become, not a huge piece of our revenue, but allows us to be a little bit more profitable. So, just, I can't understand why Act two fifty, I mean, they've kind of let us along for a bit because we've made a stick about it, but it just is mind boggling to me. And we invested the money. We invested 150,000 of our own dollars. The state didn't have to pay for the strategic resource that now exists.

[Karen Killeen (Killeen Crossroads Farm, Shelburne)]: Can I just offer a quick story, because I think it's quite compelling and helps Our early, pretty Vermont farm produces turkeys seasonally? My wife met a producer, one of the pundits on a CBS morning TV show over the wintertime, who was enamored with purchasing a Vermont raised turkey for, sorry, Thanksgiving, and asked us to ship a turkey to her. We had limited capacity to do that kind of shipping, so we contacted Becky. We were able to package that up. Actually, shipped, I think, two or three turkeys with Becky's assistance from their farm. And so the access to that dry ice was critical. It's that little sliver of accessory business activity that is really helping us try to stay viable that we're all talking about here.

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: Yeah. And I I would say just that's a good example, the turkey example, because frequently we'll be contacted by a farm that wants to ship something frozen. We're not only selling them the dry ice, we're providing them that capacity, this is the type of packaging you need, this is how much dry ice you should use, this is how long it will last. Frequently, like in the case of Karen and Briana, we actually printed their UPS label because we have an account where we get reduced costs, and then she sold them the reduced cost label, so they didn't have to pay double the amount for shipping.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Thank

[Speaker 0]: you, Mr. Chair. So, Becky, I also don't know why Act two fifty, that's a land use law. Yes. It should have nothing to do with anything else. Yep. It sounds like you've already done the land use part, and you just wanna make money by shipping it somewhere, and I understand why they're involved.

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: Because they say that we're selling it to other people, so we need an Act two fifty permit. The fact is, nobody looking at it, if you took a picture

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: of our farm with

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: dry ice and without dry ice, it would look identical. It all happens in a six by eight room on the inside of our barn. I don't- we have a tank at the end that looks like a brain tank.

[Speaker 0]: I also find it deeply concerning and disturbing that agencies and departments in the state aren't helping anybody. Customer service is absolutely horrible from what I'm hearing. And I'm curious whether you're dealing with the District Environmental Commission or ANR and DEC. Yeah. I

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: will tell you, there are some agencies that are extremely helpful. The Agency of Ag on technical support, our dairy inspector, is amazing. His name is Steve Vogue, and from a technical perspective, Agency of Ag is they're great. They want to see you succeed, they work with you like a partner.

[Speaker 0]: I think all the committee members would Yeah,

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: the Department of Health has been amazing. In actuality, we shouldn't be allowed to have a Department of Health permit for our bakery because we don't have the correct wastewater permit, even though our permit is, know, how we're using the water is not affecting anything. But the Department of Health has just continued to give us ninety day permits and they just said, like, we know you're in this problem with the ANR. But I will say, with Act two fifty and the ANR, I feel as though they are unhelpful. I think they look at themselves as like police, that they're trying to be punitive in how they interact with you, and totally unhelpful. I made a teeny bit of progress, I got so fed up, I contacted the Governor's office and I was like, these are your agencies, they work for us, I don't feel like they're working for us, and that's when one of the leadership of the ANR got involved. He's trying to be helpful, but I think he's butting up against a bureaucracy that's so entrenched and so unwilling to modify their ways that it's impossible to work.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, we're going bring you back next week. We're going to move on. Not that what you have to say is not very Head wise. Fact, it's so important that we're gonna have some more testimony on it. Yep. And so we'll bring you back in next week. Great. Linda and Spendra Major will spare that up, we'll get you back

[Speaker 0]: in. Sure.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We're good.

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: So thank much for

[Speaker 0]: taking time.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Pleasure to meet you.

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: Yeah. Really nice to meet you all. Thank So,

[Speaker 0]: who's next? Yes. Who who would be there? Anyone. We're not. Who's who would like to go next? We go.

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: Shannon.

[Shannon Hill (Farm Bureau of Vermont; VT Dairy Producers Alliance)]: Good morning.

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: Good morning.

[Shannon Hill (Farm Bureau of Vermont; VT Dairy Producers Alliance)]: I'm gonna be short and sweet today. I mostly got on to talk about Senate miscellaneous ag bill. I am Shannon Hill. I'm with Fort Hills Farm Bureau of Vermont. I'm also the co acting director for Vermont Dairy Producers Alliance. We did send out the bill to our members, and most everybody who saw what was in it was relatively happy with what they saw. And I think the biggest thing is we just wanted to get on here and say, we want to thank you for your efforts to catching on to what the Taft Street ruling did by opening up regulation to municipalities. Excuse me. And so I just want to say just a short statement that we support returning this back to the Department of Ag. And as you know, the number of dairies does continue to decline here in the state of Vermont. And the remaining dairies, most of us are staying in business by purchasing neighboring farms and open lands in other towns. And so it's really important for consistency in regulation. And by adding that, especially where you have multiple municipalities that could have multiple rules, that it would really muddy the waters, that if we didn't sort of take care of this and nip this in the bud. And I really appreciate your efforts on working on that with this piece of legislation.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We appreciate your videos. Absolutely positively, knocked right out of the park on those videos. They're informative, they're fun, they're so professionally done, and I think that's a home run-in itself.

[Shannon Hill (Farm Bureau of Vermont; VT Dairy Producers Alliance)]: Thank you. We've worked with Mount Mansfield in the past. Our farm has with other issues, we've really enjoyed their material, and we did we believe that they did, along with all of our partners, a great job on them as well. And I'm glad you guys are watching them and enjoying them. I'm not really sure how many people get to see them. So I do have a technical person who probably could tell me that.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: On the part that you're talking about, the sections one through three, I think going to get to a good place on that bill. Initially, we were going to try to close that up last Friday, but we left it open for another week for the stakeholders to work some things out. I think that at the end of the day, the gut punch that came with a decision is not going to be I think we're going to be in a good place with that when it's all said and done. We're very proud of the work that we've done and it's even better that the people that are involved with even the minute amount of discussion seem to be in agreeance. I think we'll be in a good place when we settle on our language.

[Shannon Hill (Farm Bureau of Vermont; VT Dairy Producers Alliance)]: That's really all we wanted to say about that. The only other issue that's come up that isn't part of this ag bill is the current use. We really wish you guys would look at not having a yearly sign up. I don't know that other farms

[Speaker 0]: are We are

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: we do have I am sorry to interrupt you. We do have a couple that we are that isn't showing on our miscellaneous ag bill. We are gonna take up some discussion on that. We've had three farmers talk about building structures and didn't know or weren't aware about how that structure would fit into current use and didn't really realize that they had to make the town aware. They thought automatically it was enrolled and they got some pretty big tax bills. We will be taking up some of that discussion next week on current use and about how they enroll or not. So yeah, we be touching on that next week.

[Shannon Hill (Farm Bureau of Vermont; VT Dairy Producers Alliance)]: Okay, and I'm glad you say that because that also gives me some FARs, so maybe I need to go back to our members and push out something. I deal with current use a lot, both for Fort Hills Farms and Fort Hills Gen three. I do as many as 23 of those yearly forms, and I know every time we build something, we have to update them and make sure that gets put in there, and it does get cumbersome to have to do that. I would rather have to do them once every five years, and then as we build things or change things, that would save a lot of time.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I think

[Shannon Hill (Farm Bureau of Vermont; VT Dairy Producers Alliance)]: a lot of people get confused when they get those in the mail. I don't think not everybody's tech savvy enough to do them online like I do, so I think tends to get lost in the fold. So that's all we're sort of asking about that, maybe looking at that a little differently.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, we'll be touching on that next week.

[Shannon Hill (Farm Bureau of Vermont; VT Dairy Producers Alliance)]: And I think that's all I sort of had.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. Well, thank you very much. No. We appreciate you very much. Thank you for what you do.

[Karen Killeen (Killeen Crossroads Farm, Shelburne)]: Thank you.

[Shannon Hill (Farm Bureau of Vermont; VT Dairy Producers Alliance)]: Anybody have any questions?

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: No. I think we're good for right now.

[Shannon Hill (Farm Bureau of Vermont; VT Dairy Producers Alliance)]: Perfect.

[Speaker 0]: Bye, Shannon. Bye bye.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We should talk her online.

[Justin (Fairmont Farm, East Montpelier)]: Hi. Good morning, senators, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to you today. I'll try to keep it short and to the point. Sounds like you guys have a good handle on this bill already. So I'm a dairy farmer in East Montpelier, and I farm with my two cousins, my aunt, my uncle, and our families. And between my cousins and I, we're raising eight children on the farm, ranging from two to 12 years old, and they're growing up in the same barns in the same fields as my uncle, my cousins and myself did. We operate two milking barns, approximately 1,500 cows and farm 3,700 acres of cropland. Our herd produces 133,000 pounds of milk every day that's shipped into Cabot. We employ around 30 team members and welcome about 1,800 newborn calves on our farm annually. In addition to our dairy operation, we run a market where we sell all our own beef, pork and lamb. We also host summer camps and give children an opportunity to learn about agriculture and dairy farming and interact with our calves firsthand. We're running three weeks of dairy camps this year with about 48 kids each week. So we reach out to a lot of kids. My cousins, our spouses and I have also taken over as four H leaders from my aunt and uncle continuing a program that's been led for more than twenty years. Several of our past four Hers have gone on to pursue college degrees in agriculture. And we also are active in showing and registered Holstein cows in county, state, and New England shows. So for me, this isn't just a business. You know, it's my home, it's my livelihood, and it's where, you know, it's what we hope will still be here for our kids someday. It's definitely not my job, it's not my career, it's my life and the life that my family's chosen. So being good stewards of our land, soils, water and animals matter deeply to me and just as important as being a good neighbor or a good member of our community. So, you know, farming doesn't stop at the end of the work day. Our cows need to be milked, their crops need to be managed, animals need to be cared for every day, twenty four hours out of the day. Because of that, we depend on clear and consistent ag exemptions to do our jobs. When regulations become uncertain or inconsistent, it makes harder for us to respond quickly and responsibly. One of my comments about the S-three 23 is the idea of allowing other firms to apply different ag exemptions. And it sounds like you guys are pretty confident on your wording. I just wanted to mention that our firm operates over 3,700 acres. Those towns consist of East Montpelier, Berlin, Middlesex, Callis, Montpelier, Barrie, Plainfield, Marshfield, Cabot, Crosberg, Glover, Albany, and Hardwick. So So that's 13 different towns. And, you know, our fields and our farming operations don't stop at town lines. So, know, the different rules for different towns could definitely create confusion, inefficiency and added costs. You know, our firm's not just open land. We build structures, barns, feed storage, manure pits. They're essential to producing high quality food and they're not optional. When those structures are delayed or restricted, it directly impacts the ability to run our farm. As a large farm, we already operate under state oversight. We follow nutrient management plan, RAPs, environmental regulations, and zoning setbacks as a part of our permitting process. These rules are in place to protect water quality. Because of this additional municipal regulation is unnecessary in my mind. I support the part of three twenty three that it clarifies ag activity that is subject to the required ag practices and farm structures are exempt from municipal laws. I think that clarity is important. I also support the proposed tax exemptions in this bill. You know, for families like mine, that matters. We're not just thinking about today. We're thinking about whether the next generation will have the opportunity to farm. Our logo here at Fairmont has a slogan on the bottom and it's farming for future generations and that's really important to us. Just a little bit about the farm kitchen provision bill. I support the creation of the clear definition of farm kitchens. I think a farm kitchen operation where products you know, are grown or raised on the farm and preserve or pack naturally fits what into what firms want to do or what maybe we're looking to do in the future. I think it can create more local products, connect more directly with our consumers and strengthen Vermont agriculture and dairy as a whole. Also just want to throw out there, thank you to the committee for recognizing financial pressures of, you know, that are facing firms and including the language to eliminate the annual operating fee requirement. So just at the end of the day, it's not about regulations for me, it's about people, families in the future of farming. We're doing everything we can to run responsible operations, take care of our land, produce food for our communities. And when you're raising eight kids on a farm that spans 13 towns, we don't need 13 sets of rules. We need a clear path clear path forward. And I guess that's all I've got. I'm I'm right in East Montpelier. We run a fairly tight operation, and I just want to invite you guys if anybody's interested in ever coming to the firm, we're always open for tours. A couple of years ago, we had some, or we had a group out, but if you guys are interested in coming to visit or learn more about anything, we're an open book and we'd love to have you. So thank you very much for all the work you guys do.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Tucker, thank you very much. Thank you for the very compelling testimony, Justin. Again, just reaffirming what farming is in Vermont. I don't know if we could have wrote any better chapters than what you just said. So thank you very much. We appreciate it. And this committee does work hard for farmers. It's always nice to be recognized for it. Just like we recognize what you're doing. Thank you.

[Justin (Fairmont Farm, East Montpelier)]: Yes. Thank you, guys.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yep. Who's next?

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: Stephanie Co.

[Speaker 0]: Stephanie?

[Stephanie Pope (Bridport)]: Hi. You. So I'm here with fifth generation farmer here on our farm. It's nap time, so I will not keep you guys. Everybody has said everything I was going to say, so I'm not going to repeat myself. But I do wanna say thank you. And I always think it's important to put, you know, names with faces and that us farmers are real people trying to, you know, just be here for the next generation and keep the ag landscape open. So I will not waste any more of your time because like I said, everybody has said every thing that I was going to say, but I do wanna but I didn't wanna get off and be rude and not participate either.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So Do us a favor and do the world a favor and tell us your name and where you're from, Stephanie.

[Stephanie Pope (Bridport)]: So I'm Stephanie Pope. I'm from Bridport, Vermont right on the shores of Lake Champlain. I'm we have an MFO. I'm third generation. And like I said, I'm holding the fifth generation while his mother is out working. So yeah. So we are happy to be here, thank you for all that you do. And for the first time in a very long time, we are really we're hoping to we're seeing some great progress for agriculture in the state.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Thank you very much. Thank you for coming on. What's your great what's your grandson's name?

[Stephanie Pope (Bridport)]: So this is my great nephew and his Oh,

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: great nephew.

[Stephanie Pope (Bridport)]: Yep. This is Caden.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Caden. Okay. Well, thank you very much.

[Stephanie Pope (Bridport)]: Thank you.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Coming on.

[Stephanie Pope (Bridport)]: Take care.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: You as well. Too. Everybody?

[Mark Magnan (Magnan Brothers Dairy, Fairfield)]: Hello, Mr. Chair.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah, how are

[Mark Magnan (Magnan Brothers Dairy, Fairfield)]: you? Mark Magnon here.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I cannot get

[Mark Magnan (Magnan Brothers Dairy, Fairfield)]: my video to work for some reason.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: It's okay, Mark, you're looking good.

[Mark Magnan (Magnan Brothers Dairy, Fairfield)]: Thank you, sir and I want to thank the committee for taking the time to listen to all of us today. I really appreciate that. I am one of the brothers that started Magnum Brothers Dairy over thirty years ago. I'm the third generation working here on the farm. The fourth generation is here. I have a 21 year old son that farms with us and we too have another six people in the next generation coming on our farm. Our grandfather emigrated from Canada in 1925 and my father remembers milking 26 cows by hand. Now we are milking 1,600 cows in two facilities in three different towns. So it is imperative just as you've heard before that this bill really keeps everything mainstreamed as far as regulations that we have to abide by. Fairfield is the main hub of our farm. It is a true farming community where dairy, maple, timber are the main sources of income that we derive from the land. And we besides the the local school, we are probably the largest employer here in the town with another neighboring farm. So it's very imperative that dairy and ag remain strong here in our community. With regard to current use, I really don't like the annual need to reenroll every parcel that we have and working with the county forester. They have said the same thing. There's no reason why this is a stipulation. So I'd really like to be able to work with you to if we could change that. If anything, it just causes confusion. And it seems like they're almost out to get you than they are to help you.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I think you're gonna be part of that conversation next week. Okay. We'll reach out to you as far as all that. I think you got caught up in a little something as far as with one building that didn't quite get enrolled and your tax bill came in a little bit higher than what you were thinking it was. I believe that you were part of that. But yeah, we'll reach out to you next week if that's okay.

[Mark Magnan (Magnan Brothers Dairy, Fairfield)]: Absolutely, and I don't mind coming down there either, but I do appreciate the time and because current use is a very important program to us and the name justifies just the program. Let's tax the farmers at the current rate at the what is being used for today. You know, I'm just blown by some of the testimony I've been listening to here. You know, isn't it amazing where one state agency needs this farmer for their dry ice because it's the only place that can be made in Vermont and yet its sister agency wants to put it out of business. So I think we really need to listen to stories like that. That is very powerful because

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: It is powerful.

[Mark Magnan (Magnan Brothers Dairy, Fairfield)]: Dairy farmers, we are under that type of scrutiny every day. I really think, you know, and it to be blunt, George Steinbrenner had a sign on his desk. He says move to the left, move to the right, but get the hell out of my way. I just think that says something. I mean, if you're not there to help us, you know, that's seen. That is truly seen. And my father had a statement always he says if the weather doesn't get you the markets will. You know and here's a guy that saw a lot of change. He grew up through the depression and never never had all the answers, but always willing to work at it with people around you. And that's what that told me. You know, you don't always have to be the smartest person in the room, you have to be able to work with them. So I think I think there's a lot the state can do for farmers and and streamlining things like this is definitely helpful, but I also just would like the committee to realize what the neighboring states are helping their farmers with. You know last month Maine sent out a check of 45¢ a 100 weight on their milk that was shipped in their state. New York up their tax credit exemption from 20% to 25%. Connecticut started that 20% tax exemption. Massachusetts is at $4 a hundredweight tax exemption. And I'm not asking the state to do that, but my point is down in Montpelier you really have to start realizing the sour taste that's out in the fields of Vermont about how the regulatory agencies are really running a pretty heavy hand on us. So I think we really need to think outside the box about, yes, I know there's no money to write to the and I'm not expecting that or wanting that. We will make it in the marketplace. But when when I think we need to also realize you gotta think outside the box and maybe start reallocating some money, you know, and if some of these agencies are not really willing to help us, do they really deserve the funding that they're getting?

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: And at the very least, if there's no money to reallocate, you move left, you move right and you get the hell out of the way.

[Mark Magnan (Magnan Brothers Dairy, Fairfield)]: Well, that sounds pretty good to me.

[Karen Killeen (Killeen Crossroads Farm, Shelburne)]: Mark,

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: thank you very much. We'll be in touch next week. Thanks, Scott. And thank you for what you do.

[Mark Magnan (Magnan Brothers Dairy, Fairfield)]: Hey. Thank you. Appreciate it.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: You're very welcome.

[Becky Castle (Fisher Brothers Farm / Sisters of Anarchy Ice Cream, Shelburne)]: Travis? Is he on a little bit? No. Okay. Then he was touch and go.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: You touch and go?

[Speaker 0]: Yeah. Okay.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, is there anybody else left on the screen that hasn't spoken? Okay, well we want to thank everyone. And to a committee while we're still alive. I think we have three big testimony things that next week that we're going to do. One is on the solar, one's on center major section six the other one's going to be on the bill. The one that's going to get back to us on the current use bill, if we can have that bill to look at tomorrow and we can keep on just moving forward. Other than that, again, always great to hear from these folks. Know, we can't. It's nice to hear that we're on the right path with a lot of these folks, but their frustrations are real. If we can't do anything about it, we can keep talking about it and keep moving things forward. I think it's very, very important. I think the most important thing in life sometimes is to not get spoken to, but get listened to. And then take that and see what you can do to help. And I do feel very strongly that this committee is dedicated to that. I think we're getting some wins. We need to get a lot more.