Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Good morning. It's Friday. Been a productive week at Southern Agriculture. Thank the committee for their hard work. We're gonna spend some time this morning, Vermont Housing and Conservation Coalition, and they're going tell us what they want us to hear. Good morning, the floor is Thank

[Abby White (Co-Chair, Vermont Housing & Conservation Coalition; Vermont Land Trust)]: so much. Abby White, one of the co chairs of the Vermont Housing and Conservation Coalition and also with the Vermont Land Trust. Just as a note, we had one change in a witness. Pete Dulet is not able to join us today, but we do have another guy, Guy McGuire from South Carolina who's gonna speak in his place. So, again, Abby White, and just really pleased to be here. For those of you who don't know, Vermont Housing Conservation Coalition is a coalition around 50 organizations in the housing, permanently affordable housing sector, land conservation, and land preservation. We're one of the oldest coalitions in the state, almost forty years, and we advocate for robust investments in both housing and conservation, and those investments flow through VHCV. So, we're here to talk today about what the impact of those investments are and have been, particularly focused on agriculture. So, this year, the Governor has fully funded BHCB in his proposed budget. That amount is $37,600,000 So we are asking you all to support that budget, recommend, and do so when it comes time for you all to recommend budget items in the Senate. So that's who we are. Today, I'm really delighted to be joined by five Vermonters, all whom have been touched by VHCD dollars, and they have their own life experiences to share with you. So first, we'll hear from Guy Maguire of the South Hero Land Trust. And then Kathleen Swanson, resident of South Hero, who will be on Zoom. They're gonna be talking about the same project that's in South Hero. Mark Guttel with A Kinder Way Berry Farm in West Pollet. Sam Smith is a farm business director with the Intervale Center. And then finally, Rosalie Williams, who's a lifelong farmer based in Bakersfield. So with that, I will

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: say the floor to them.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Thank you very

[Steve Collier (Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets)]: much.

[Abby White (Co-Chair, Vermont Housing & Conservation Coalition; Vermont Land Trust)]: Thank you. Bye.

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: So I'm the other guy. Sorry. We don't have the regular guys. No problem. Doing his head.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: God told us we wouldn't have known.

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: Yeah. Well, thanks for having me. So my name is Guy McGuire. I'm the executive director of South Land Trust. We're a very small land trust, and we do land conservation of farmland and natural areas in South Quiro, as well as we do education work, any kid down farms. We do farm viability work because for us, land conservation is just one of the tools. Because the ultimate goal as a community based land trust is the health of the community. And we wouldn't do land conservation if it didn't support our local community and the community throughout the islands. We started in 1997 with a project to conserve Allen Home Farm, which is the state's oldest commercial apple orchard. And we worked with Vermont Land Trust for that, and we've worked with Vermont Land Trust and other conservation groups for all of our projects since then. Conservation really brings groups together because there are so many co benefits. Since then, we've conserved about 2,000 acres of land, built a couple mile trails, conserved about a mile of shoreline. We are so fortunate in South Carolina to have so many awesome farms. There's Allen Home Farm, which I mentioned is the oldest commercial apple orchard. There's also Snow Farm, which is the oldest Vermont vineyard and winery. There's multi generational farms at Hackers Orchard and Island Acres Farm. And there's also a new generation of farmers at places like Health Bureau Farm and Pick Assist Meats. And the thing that all these farms have in common is that they're all conserved. And the benefits of conservation has enabled those farms to continue farming. And it provides so many things. I mean, I I could go on and on about why having small farms in our town and in the island is so important. It supports our economies. I mean, there's local jobs. We're talking food. These farmers sell as much as they can, and they donate their rent to local food shells, so there's a food security element to it as well. These farms are gathering spaces. In rural towns like South Europe, there's not very many public spaces, and so the farms are those places where you meet folks that are from here or not from here, and they provide a really important role for the community. Also, farmers protect water quality. Farmers protect the land. They take care of land. These are the people who steward our farmland. They steward the soil. They take care of the water, air, and soil, and they do that work every day. Our most recent projects have been working with Vermont Land Trust and the Swanson and Gulet families to conserve 195 acres at the Gulet Farm, and we couldn't have done the project without DHCP funding. We were able to use that funding and match it with the local fundraising campaign, as well as bring in federal money through the NRCS funding programs. And so that's a really important thing to stress, which I'm sure you all probably know, but that the PHP funding doesn't just pay for everything. It's like almost like seed money that helps us access this other funds to bring into Vermont to be able to do these really important projects to protect farms. And it was, I think Kathleen will speak

[Steve Collier (Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets)]: in a moment. She'll tell more of

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: a story, but it was 2020 that nine acres of land they were farming was up for sale. And it was like a like a it was like an endgame scenario where it was like, if we don't if we can't keep farming this land, we we might not be able to keep farming. Like, this was a third generation farmer was, like, not sure they could keep going. And so they reached out to the Swanson's who were really interested, who lived next door. They reached out to us. They reached out to Al at Vermont Land Trust and said, you know, can we do some sort of conservation? Because we have farmers on our board, they talk to these folks, give them the pros and cons. What does it mean to conserve your farm? What was our experience with it? Will this work for you? We were really fortunate to be able to come together and make it happen. And they're they're the only vegetable operation in South Europe. They have a really thriving farm stand. It's got over a 100 people a day come visit during the during that the height of summer. And they're also gathering space. Have events on their farm. And so the the the value of having the Gulet Farm in South Hero is incredibly important, both for the people of South Hero as as well as the whole state of Vermont. And this story plays out everywhere in Vermont. There's these farms that are being conserved, they're able to keep farming, half that farm down to the next generation. It's it's it's all made possible by the BHCD funding. So, like, as someone who works in a small town, who lives in a small town, like, to see the effects of this work every day, I just want to know that happening everywhere. Thanks to that funding. So I wanna thank you for your support, you know, conservation funding. Also, I mentioned our office is right across to this the street from the Bayview Senior Housing Center. That's another conservation project, but it's a housing project. What's so cool about Vermont is that we fund Spokane and we work together to conserve farmland where we need to conserve it and provide housing where we need to have housing. That is so special that we have that. That's something that should be cherished and should be supportive. So, thank you for your support of that work.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Question? So, the other guys. Yeah. Is the housing workforce housing, or general housing?

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: This product that that part's familiar with senior housing, which has been a huge need in the islands for people to be able to grow old in in place with housing values being going up and up and up. It was hard for people to be able to grow old where they grew up and where they where they live. And and and so I think it

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: was the first and I

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: know someone here will probably correct me. The first, like, senior housing project in, like, decades and decades in the islands.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I think Chandra Ma played a pretty big part of that Yeah. Together. I remember seeing the slides on that. It's a very great

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: Right, I should mention that was Cathedral Square, and that was Cider, which is a local group that they had dreamed that like thirty years ago. And you know, these products aren't easy, but they're incredibly important.

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Yep. Do you have a number of how many, you know, like, on the land trusts, I had a conversation with Abby earlier, and you say you'd like to receive that it passes down to generation, to generate, we have, land trusts been in practice now for, I don't know how long, but have we seen, give us a number of how many has actually passed from one generation to the next to continue farming? Is there a stat on that or?

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: There could be, you know, I don't know. I would defer to the folks at DHCC and PLT for, like, larger stats. I can say anecdotally in South Europe, you know, cons conserving Island Acres Farm helped them pass down the farms to the next generation, and they're currently in the process of, you know, working on the next generation. Hackett's Orchard now is in the third generation farming, and that sense conservation. Cool. Devin Packett has taken that on. Snow Farm Vineyard is now also in the third generation, so Nick and Alex and Julie and all those folks who work here are now grown up and have kids of their own, and they're working in the family business. Allen Home Farm is, you know, in whatever the ninth or tenth generation farm. They they keep they keep going. So many of the South Bureau farms haven't able to pass down anything. It's it doesn't solve all problems.

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: No. No.

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: There's a lot of other support in, like, the the HCV Farm and Forest Viability Program is also a huge part of that. They help work with farmers on farm succession planning so that you can deal with all the complications of taxes and stuff, and that's all that's up to go with above my head. We've folks in the room

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: that do that work. No, Steve. I was just gonna

[Al Karnatz (Vermont Land Trust – Farmland Projects)]: We can get you some numbers because a lot of times, you know, it may not be I'm sorry. I'm Al Carnett from Northland Trust. Alright. Thank you. Thank you for having us. And I do the farmland projects and work with guy both guys on on the project in South Hero. But I can get we can get you some numbers on that. I mean, know anecdotally, the projects that I work with, at least a third have some kind of transfer involved, whether it's generational or new farms. Actually that number has crept up over the years. In many cases, it's half of our projects now. Have some kind of generational thing, but we could try to work some numbers up for you

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: for sure. I'm gonna bring in what was part of this conversation, Kathleen Swanson. Kathleen, are you ready?

[Kathleen Swanson (South Hero resident/landowner)]: I am. Can you hear me? I've unmuted myself right?

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah you're all. Okay

[Kathleen Swanson (South Hero resident/landowner)]: good. So Kathleen Swanson, I've lived in South Hero for almost forty years now and my husband and I and my family live off Davis Hill which abuts the Goulette's property. In 2022 abutting properties came on the market, one ninety acre parcel that Guy had been farming leasing but the price went up for sale. There were slated to be eight houses to be built there and it was just too rich, using a Guy Goulette term, for him to buy it. So my husband and I did some creative financing. We bought it very quickly within forty eight hours and began working very quickly with the land trusts and the goulettes. Meanwhile, a 30 acre parcel that runs along Route Threefour 14 also came on the market after being in probate for a long time because of the death of the farmer. So and we bought that and meanwhile there was a lot of trust and leap of faith on both of our families.

[Abby White (Co-Chair, Vermont Housing & Conservation Coalition; Vermont Land Trust)]: We didn't know

[Kathleen Swanson (South Hero resident/landowner)]: how it was going to turn out with VHCb. It's a very competitive process. So in the meantime Guy and Lori Goulette bought 37 acres from us so that he had a larger land base which made his proposal conservation project more competitive, let's say. But we didn't know how it was going to turn out. So there was a lot of white knuckling during the four and a half years that we went through this. But none of it would happen without the VHCb money. There was a lot of investment in this property and this land base now that Guy has is going to allow him to have a sustainable, contiguous property, which in the hay business is very important. And he also, his farm, they have a transition plan. His stepson works with him every day and so eventually he will take it over. And this, it the other thing that's so important about the Goulette project for me personally, I was a founding board member of the South Carolina Trust and as you know farming is very difficult and there's good years and bad years, but this operation is a financially solid operation which it will be in the future thanks to this conservation project. So we couldn't have done it without it. And the other part that I love about this project is we put together back the pieces of what was an original farm. So that 01/2020 acres that the Swansons bought is now being put back together, which was a generational farm on Route 2 and now it goes from that farm to the goulettes. So it put all the pieces back together of what was a very fragmented farm property. And that's it for now.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well thank you for that.

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Want to

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: say a couple of things that got touched upon that this committee is working hard on. And one of them is we are just starting a very huge conversation about doing all we can do to protect prime ag land and state of Nevada, and it should be something that sounds fairly simple. As we can see from the testimony just at the very beginning, you folks take that very serious. We have a lot of other folks in the state that aren't taking it very serious, We're trying to put a spotlight on that. We're going to be very rabid about that. We're talking about commercial developments. A lot of people do favor. We're talking about solar fields, we're talking about housing, we're talking about a lot of important things that need to happen in the state of Vermont. Renewable energy is something that we all believe in, but we need to make sure that we can serve our farmland because we can see the future. All we have to do is look further outside of the state of Vermont and look into the areas that wish that they would have had these conversations a lot earlier in the process. We certainly applaud with that and would ask that as you see us move forward to lend your voice to what we're trying to do. The second thing is, and it was again in testimony, we do know the real hard battles that farmers have to try to stay in production, whether they're milking cows, goats, sheep, growing vegetables, selling hay, live region livestock, that they have to diversify. They have been doing a lot about having events, people come into their farms and try the product that they're producing. We're having a little bit of a battle about on farm structures getting into A and R and local zoning and all of that stuff. We're trying to solve that problem as well, and we would ask that you folks join that battle with us as we look for that, because we understand that, as you've said, Kathleen, that it's hard. It's hard for these folks to make it, and they need to diversify in such a way, and this type of regulation is just added stress, and it takes away from building community. As we go in there, we would ask, as you stay mindful of what we're trying to do as well. Let's continue on. Who would like to be next?

[Abby White (Co-Chair, Vermont Housing & Conservation Coalition; Vermont Land Trust)]: I think we have Sam. You Oh,

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: is it me?

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: Oh, we have Mark.

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Oh, yeah. Great.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: I didn't want to be rude. I didn't want talk Do

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: I get to sit in the chair? Yeah. Yeah. Alright.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: It's the hot seat. You're the third guy.

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: So I'm

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: the third

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: guy. I'll take that. Listen. I'm not as cool as those guys. But Well, thank you. You know, first of all, thank you. I am I am deeply honored to be in this building. It means a lot to me. I'm a little tired. I will tell you. I'm in law enforcement. I was worked all night, and it didn't go well. And Donald has kept me pumped with coffee the entire ride here from West Paulette. If I ramble, just tell me to shut up. I'm done, and I'll leave. But again

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Thank you for your service.

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: Absolutely. I I believe it. You know, I'm on both sides. I'm I'm a farmer and and a cop that believes in the housing shortage that we're having as well. I I'm I'm deeply embedded in mental health and housing. So back to the farming. I'll start with the I guess it's been, what, three years, Donald? Plus. So three years plus. My wife and I dreamt of being farmers. That's all we wanted to be. We wanted to have a farm that could actually have a a production value. So we get it fastened on to our kids. And, you know, I had a restaurant cop. I don't make a lot of money. So we we we had roadblock after roadblock after roadblock. We saw a blueberry farm that came up on on the market that had been in business for forty five years, leaving berries. Huge family history. Unfortunately, with the price point, family couldn't continue. We I I know Kathleen said, you know, came up with some financing options. We we found a way. We paid way too much for this farm. Way too much. I mean, we we we took everything we had, and and we were we were definitely out of our element. But we had one thing that we were focused on, and that was the Vermont Land Trust and the Housing Authority. I heard about it. I believed in it. This farm, we were the fourth offer. The three offers in front of us were all commercial offers. This was on residential, agricultural, industrial, and commercial. It was gonna go it was gonna be a storage complex. Right? A 100 acres of prime, beautiful soil, seven acres of 5,000 hive bush berries, blueberries that have been there for forty years and still producing. But again, price point. I'm very stubborn as you can imagine and I call that realtor every day for thirty days. Mhmm. And I said, know, my name is Mark with Kinder Way. I just want you to know that. And I tell her the same thing every day. Hoping I I knew it in in reality. I'm what am I gonna go against? A developer? I can't. Right? I'm limited on funds. We we had one offer and that was it. I don't know how it happened, but thirty days later, she called me, said, you still interested? I said, we'll take it. And she said, don't you wanna see the farm? I said, no. But I secretly have been there every day for thirty days.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: I drove there every night from From Middlebury.

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: I did. And I and

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: I said, well, yeah, this is this is what

[Al Karnatz (Vermont Land Trust – Farmland Projects)]: you know, I I I felt that

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: this was this was not just important for my family, but for the the agricultural community. Right? Farming is important. I grew up corn and beans in Illinois. You know, turned 17, couldn't wait to get away from the farm. Met my wife, and of course, was a farm girl and brought me right back, right? Yep. So it's it's in me, and and it's important. I wanted my kids to grow up the way I did. Right? So and I'm trying to jump around so I don't drag you guys on. So we bought the farm, purchased it for way too much money. I had $4,000 a month mortgage payment, which I don't know how I made. I tell people for two and a half years while with this process, I ate ramen and blueberries. Right?

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: The whole family did. That was how we

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Plenty of blueberries.

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: Plenty of blueberries, you know? But we were focused on the end result, and that was creating something that we could pass on to our kids, but also also providing an example that this that this can work for other families younger than myself. I'm I'm up there. Right? And so first blueberry season, I was in the stand. I had no idea how to about blueberries, but man, I, you know, I I was excited. And I met Donald Campbell day one. And he came up and he introduced himself and I said, I've been looking for you. Yeah. And we started our plan and it it was a rocky road as you can imagine. This process is not easy, especially for someone who's paying $4,000 a month I thought it was gonna be magic. We were gonna make this deal, and I can afford to be a farmer. Two and a half years later, hard two and a half years later, we were down. I get a little emotional. We were done. I couldn't afford it. I couldn't afford to farm. We had we had we had saved enough. We fought for this process,

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: and it took a little longer.

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: We had some bumps. And I was we had nothing left in the tank, literally, financially. And Donald called me and said, we're closing.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: He gave me a date.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: It was the greatest day of

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: my life. Closed on that farm. I went from $4,000 a month to $850 a month. And I can't thank this this community enough, the LT, the housing board. Not only did they save my my family and my farm, but they showed me that we could do this. We could do this to other farms and to other families. It it's it's so important to our culture in Vermont, agriculture. Right? I'm a blueberry farmer. I I I had a dairy twenty years ago. Right? I I it's it's in our blood, but again, we've gotta make it affordable for people like myself who can we talk about generational. Right? We need to be able to pass that on, and to do that, it has to be affordable. Even if we pass it on to our kids, it costs a ton of money. Right? So we've gotta make it easier, and and this process will make it easier. And I I have I have kids 31, 20, 18, and eight. And I want all of them to have an opportunity to to farm and to create a life for themselves and have their kids and their kids. You know, over the past two and a half years, three seasons of blueberries, I've had hundreds of people come to me in the stand and thank you, not only for for continuing to farm, but to conserve the land. I I I hung that sign on the side of my farm stand.

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: Yeah.

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: It was it it was like raising a flag, honestly. This means so much to

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: the farming community, and that's

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: why I'm here today. I'm I'm, again, I'm deeply honored, but I want you guys to know how much us as farmers appreciate the funds because it sounds like we're just focused on the funds, but those funds made it possible to be a farmer and for my kids to be a farmer and their kids and their kids. And and I want generations of these people that are picking blueberries that were here when they were a kid forty five years ago, and now they're bringing their grandkids to pick the saved berries. Right. Want them to continue with their kids, and and that's why I'm here today. And and again, I don't wanna take all your time. I know I ramble, but I'm I'm I'm deeply honored. This building means something to me. Fifteen years ago, I was in this building, never thought I'd be in this building again, and

[Al Karnatz (Vermont Land Trust – Farmland Projects)]: and it's an honor, and

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: I I want you all to know that.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: And I thank you if you wouldn't do what you did. Oh, thank you. How did it how's the weather impacted you over the last few years? We've had some weather incidents in

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: Weather's been crazy. Right? And and fruit. So we we've got bug issues. We don't spray. We're organic. Right? So we've had Drosophila come in my first year, wiped us out. We had a very mild, warm, but not hot, moist summer, which was we thought was beautiful. It was great for the berries, but we didn't know anything about spotting in Drosophila. Well, now we do. You know, and it wiped us out. We have 60,000 pounds of blueberries we can we can harvest every year. I don't do that. Right? Finding people to pick. It's extremely everything has

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: to be handpicked. Right?

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: So we have berries that that don't all come ripe at the same time. People are like, oh, she got a machine. She's, well, it doesn't work that way. It's all handpicked. Picking is is difficult. My wife, was, last year, was, diagnosed with Lyme. She had facial paralysis. We gave him medication. She couldn't come outside. She was socially she was she was having a hard time. You know, we're a very personable business when people come out for you big berries, and she wasn't around for the season. So the no fly last year, but we couldn't get them picked. 30,000, 40,000 pounds went to the ground. We fed a lot of birds and bears. That's part of the gig, right? But that's farming. Farming, have loss, we have gains, we have bumper crops, we have bugs, we have weather. This year, I love the cold winters, and I love the snow back. It's gonna help with the

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: with the moisture and with the with the bugs. Right.

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: Right? So but again, we're mother nature wins every time. It's up to us as as farmers to adapt to to the weather, and that's what I wanna teach my kids too, right, is resilience, adaptability. The process is difficult, two and a half years, right, to see the funds. But I think what it showed me and and my kids is if you work hard at something and you believe in it, it will happen.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: You know? And resilience. I think every farmer in this room knows

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: what I'm talking about when I

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: talk about resilience, you know, and adaptability. So you just put, land trust the whole farm? Or was

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: there housing?

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: I, here's

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: what I told Donald. I said, I want everything you got. Throw it at me. I wanna, I wanna, I wanna be the most concerned place you can imagine. Right? And I was thinking financial. I'm not gonna lie. Right. Right. But again, that's my mentality is I'm working with this organization who wants to give me money to farm. Right? What do you and I kept telling Donald, what do you need? What do you need from me? How can I help you?

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: How many acres are you?

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: We're a total of a 101, and we've got seven acres of blueberries. We've also got three acres of strawberries, and then now we've just added I'm work we're working with the NRCS. I just finished my first 100 foot high tunnel for raspberries. We're about to start another one. And then we've got a whole vegetable area, market garden. We haven't sold vegetables. It's more for our consumption. And then we I'm very involved in in in our our local food groups or local food banks. Again, my day job or night job, whatever you call it, is really embedded in the community, and farming goes hand in hand. We talked about how when you have a surplus, you donate it. 100% we do the same thing. Right? We're in the pharmacy program, FA Arm, and Rutland, fantastic program. These programs are important, but they're all focused on food, and as human beings we need food. We need to focus more on food, and I think these programs help with that.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and welcome. Greatness to you. Thank you. Is it all you pick, or do you take some of it to the Rutland Farmers Market?

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: So we do you pick? I try and do Rutland Farmers Market, Dorset Farmers Market, and Manchester. We we do have a couple of Middlebury co op,

[Sam Bellavance (Founder, Sunset Lake CBD, South Hero)]: you know.

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: Right? We have a couple of of wholesales. The trouble we have is picking. So you you pick is is golden. Right, Brian?

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: Like, it is it is

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: it is where it's supposed to be. Right? People come out and not only do they get the food, saves me in labor. Right? But they get the experience. And and that, as you can see, I like to talk and I like to sell. But I'm not I'm not just selling blueberries, I'm selling a lifestyle. And I'm trying to sell Vermont and agriculture because we need more farmers. We need more food. We need more food in our state than we keep in our state. And not grow some, ship it out, and then we we ship it back in and buy it from somewhere else. I think if we band together and we promote agriculture again, we can really, really create something to be an example of the country. So you mentioned your four

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: kids. I'm interested in hearing a little bit more about the succession plans. Did you sit down with a land trust and figure I mean, I don't know how you divvy up four.

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: Can tell you take the number one. I can tell you that the most interested prospect I have is my is my eight year old. Eight. Yeah. Wow. He's my little farmer, man. You know? And, you know, I've got so my 30 year old lives in Colorado. Okay. Loves to visit, but he's a mechanic. He has his own business. My 18 year old is an athlete. He just got accepted to Austin University for football and baseball. He's he's ready to go to college and flew fly the coup. My daughter works for Head Start program in Raleigh. Yep. She has a place in Granville. Kind of interesting, but her boyfriend's not. But again, we got Noah. Right? My he's my little left hand. I mean, he's everywhere. Yeah. And he's out there picking blueberries, and he's he runs the stand. My little guy, you know? He's a he's a talker like his dad, and he's the kid, you know. And and I'll tell you, if I could divvy up four, I'd divvy up for four, but it's gonna be Noah. I I feel it, you know. He's got the he's got the drive, but he's also got the passion, and he gets it. He loves getting dirty, but he loves food. And he understands the the direct connection to our to our land that we have that's concerned and the food we're growing that we can consume. So so I think, Brian, it's gonna be easy. Right? I think I think no one's gonna be the guy, you know? But the good news is no matter what happens to me or even my kids say, you know what, dad? We love you, but we've seen you struggle. We're not gonna do it. That farm, because of the housing coalition and the middle land trust Yeah. Will always be a farm. It will always be a blueberry farm. And I would welcome any family in, and it's affordable for them. Not like I I had to I had to rob Peter and Paul to get there. Right? Yeah. I had no business doing what I did, but I believed in in this process. And I would I would love to cut that out for another family, you know, even if it's not my fam, doesn't matter. I want someone to have the opportunity to continue this tradition. And that, again, that's always in my mind. So what's the housing coalition part of that associated with your funding? Just the funding. Yeah, the funding. Okay. Yeah, and I'm gonna tell you right now, without funding, I wouldn't be there. I wouldn't be a farmer. Right. I would still have three cop jobs to try and get by. I'd be miserable, and I would feel like I'm not contributing to my community.

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Well, coffee's working

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: today. Right? Yeah. Absolutely,

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: man. Alright. But, well, I associated that, there might have been some housing involved that you took some of the land and made housing, but we No. It's not. It's just No.

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: We didn't. And and that was really important to me. Yeah. And and I didn't go to battle against the developers, but my view was this this has been a farm for forty five years, a productive farm and a and a community farm with you pick for forty five years. We can't take that away. We can't take that away. Yeah. And that's why I fought so hard to to conserve it. That's why I told Donald, you hit me. I'll conserve the whole state if I could.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Thank you, Mr. Chair. You said you had workforce issues. Yep. The whole state issues.

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're with having such a labor intensive problem, and I I thought we were we were advertising some pretty good wages as well, but it's hard. You know? Again, we've gotta educate our our young people to work again. I hate to say that. Right? Even my own kid, my 18 year old son, who's an athlete, very capable of physical activity, needed a job and would not work for me. I can't figure that out. Right? So we've gotta do better at education, I I believe, you know, and get back to the way I grew up. I grew up with your you work hard. You have an ethic a good work ethic.

[Al Karnatz (Vermont Land Trust – Farmland Projects)]: You get rewarded for it,

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: and you and you you you exist. So I think we get back to the basics, and I spent a lot of my time in my farm stand talking about that. With young people that come in and and pick, hey, you know, I'm I'm hiring. Right? And we get people back into agriculture.

[Al Karnatz (Vermont Land Trust – Farmland Projects)]: And the only way

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: that we're gonna do that is make it attractive. Right? So if we can make it attractive financially, but also rewards of of doing the right thing and contributing to your community. That's what I'm focusing on right now. So I think the labor part of it, I think it I'm hoping it will change. You know what? I'm hoping we can bring some people in that can see the the fruits of it. No no pun intended. Uh-uh. Right? But but, you know, again, that's that's my goal. Because I I believe it can happen. Because we've gotta do better in this state. We are an agricultural state. We're not just a tourism state. That's I have that discussion a lot. We're agricultural tourism, but we're an agricultural state, and we can't forget that.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We don't Sounds good. Yeah.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Sorry. I know, Randall. You did a great job on that.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: You're a

[Al Karnatz (Vermont Land Trust – Farmland Projects)]: great personality. So if I'm

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: Brian, was a tall member. I had the cafe. Yes. Yeah. And and you and I met before and I I support you, Brian. And I appreciate you all being kind to my family.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, we love the we love the story. That is That's a story we like to hear. So yeah, we could listen to

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: that all day. Well, you. And again, thank

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: you for the time. This is a great honor for me. And again, thank you for what you all do.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Very Well, there's one thing this committee does do. When we get busy, we really do. I've said to the committee over and over and over again, let's not forget the people that we are serving and need to come in and tell their story to us. And to be fair, we have a lot of work to do. We really, really do. This is our work as well. Well, on us as well. This is our work as well.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: It takes

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: a village. We need to hear with what we do. So thank you.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: Thank you. I wouldn't be here

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: without you. I want you all to know.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Not me either. Thank you.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Who's next? Hey. Welcome.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: Hello, guys.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Morning Chair, members of the Senate, Ag Committee. Thanks for having me back here again. Think I've been here about every year for the past five or six. That's okay. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today and for your leadership in supporting Vermont's farmers working lands and food systems.

[Sam Smith (Farm Business Director, Intervale Center)]: My name is Sam Smith. I'm the Farm Business Director of the Intervale Center. For the past thirteen years, I've provided business planning support to farmers and food businesses across the state, helping them build strong, viable operations that can withstand economic pressures, climate impacts, and changing markets. I'm here today to respectfully ask that you fund up the HCB at its full statutory share of $37,600,000 in FY twenty seven as supported in the Governor's budget. I believe VHCb is Vermont's most effective tool in strengthening farm viability, conserving working lands, and advancing resiliency in the food system. What makes VACB uniquely effective is its integrated approach, pairing land conservation and capital access with individualized technical assistance that helps farmers build profitable, adaptable businesses. Conserving farmland is essential, but conservation alone does not ensure that land remains actively farmed, economically viable, or resilient in the face of climate change and market volatility. For more than twenty years, the Intervale Center has partnered with BHCD's Farm and Forest Viability Program. We currently have four full time business planners working with over 130 farms a year. The stability of VHCV funding has allowed us to hire and train skilled farm business specialists who provide comprehensive support including financial analysis, bookkeeping, and marketing support. The farms we work with represent every sector of Vermont agriculture, dairy, vegetables, livestock, diversified operations, and beginning farmers, and they exist in every region of the state. Today's farmers are operating in an increasingly complex environment. They face rising input costs, tight margins, workforce challenges, land access barriers, and growing climate uncertainty, from flooding to drought, early frosts, high winds causing increasingly unpredictable growing seasons. To succeed, farmers must run sophisticated businesses while stewarding the land and feeding their communities. The HCB supported technical assistance gives farmers the tools to manage these pressures, helping them plan for risk, invest wisely, and build resilient operations that can endure. I would like to share one example of the type of work that VHCD enables. A few years ago, I began working with a young grain farmer who was farming on leased land in Southern New Hampshire. Tyler Murray had identified a property in West Haven that he wanted to purchase, and had begun discussions with the owner and the Vermont Land Trust about conservation. Over the next two years, Tyler and I worked together to develop a business plan, secure financing, and early this past summer, he closed on the property. He now has land security, room to grow his grain operations, and has gotten pretty good at developing his farm cash flow projections, which was a real stretch for him. I know the future will hold countless challenges for him, but I am confident that he has the skills to weather them. Financially strong farms are more likely to recover from extreme weather events, invest in soil health and conservation practices, diversify crops and markets, and maintain consistent food production for Vermont communities. Farm viability is directly tied to Vermont's ability to feed itself. Funding DHCV ensures that conserved land remains working land, and that farmers have the business capacity to stay profitable and resilient over time. DHCV also remains one of the state's strongest leverage mechanisms. Public funding routinely attracts substantial federal, private, and philanthropic dollars, multiplying the impact of state investments and bringing outside resources into Vermont's agricultural economy. Underfunding VHCV reduces not only programming, but also the total dollars flowing into the working lands and farm businesses. The statutory funding level of $37,600,000 for FY '27 reflects Vermont's longstanding commitment to conserving working lands, supporting farm viability, and strengthening food system resiliency. It ensures that the programs already delivering strong results can continue helping farmers navigate today's challenges and build for the future. In my thirteen years of doing this work, I've seen firsthand how the difference between farms surviving or thriving often comes down to whether a farmer has access to skilled business support. On behalf of the Intermeil Center, the hundreds of farmers that we have served through VHCV supported programs, and the rural communities that depend on strong agricultural economy, I respectfully urge you to support VHCV at its full statutory share FY '27. Thank you for your

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: time and for your continued commitment to Vermont's farmers and working with us. Well, thank you.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: In a just a brief description of the Intervale? Tell us what you do.

[Sam Smith (Farm Business Director, Intervale Center)]: So the Intervale as a whole is a nonprofit. We're a land based nonprofit. We operate on about three fifty acres in what was the last working dairy farm in Vermont. We currently have seven working farms on our property who have long term secure land tenure through leases, and those range from a half acre herb farm up to a 50 acre, it's the largest member owned CSA in the state, vegetable CSA. We have a conservation nursery that does a lot of growing native trees and then planting them primarily in riparian buffers on farms. We do a lot of food access work. We have a food hub and a gleaning program. We have a fair share where we have a no cost food distribution to up to 400 families a year, and then we also engage the public in terms of education around our food system, and then we have our programming, which is funded somewhat through the Farm Viability Program. They provide the stable, long term funding that has allowed us to leverage philanthropic support, and so we go out and provide this direct one on one technical assistance with farmers across the state, all different types of farmers, so I have three other full time business planners that do that as well.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: How'd

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: that drought? It was really wet in the spring.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We have talked to you about the flooding before.

[Sam Smith (Farm Business Director, Intervale Center)]: It's, yeah, I was here for the Farm Oh, Security it's been a wild year. Will say, you know, the impacts of the drought were really inconsistent across the state, and it depended a lot on the type of farming you're doing and where you were. I've been, well, as you know, the dairies, and specifically the dairies sort of in the central portion of the state through Addison County, yep, were really profoundly impacted. Mean, think right now, the milk price and some of the other factors that are going on in the dairy markets are gonna be bad. Yes, it's already bad. But then, some of the farms that we work with, especially the vegetable farms, because they've sort of seen the writing on the wall, have started to really think about mitigation practices, if they had irrigation, they actually had, but some of the vegetable farmers had really great years, like

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: How about down in Interval?

[Sam Smith (Farm Business Director, Intervale Center)]: The Interval, they did okay because they've always, we have really sandy soils, they've relied on irrigation, and so- That's good. Yeah, and much better than the two prior years of catastrophic flooding. The water hooking away, by the way. Yeah, yeah.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: Too much water. Yeah. Had a vineyard gentleman yesterday who I think felt almost guilty because he had a record breaking year, and it was so dry, but it was good for what he did.

[Sam Smith (Farm Business Director, Intervale Center)]: Yeah. He's one of my clients. Oh, okay. One of my farm clients. So, yeah, you know, the vineyards, actually another one of the vineyards I work with down in the Middlebury area, the folks that bought Lincoln Peak, they bought it last year, and their yield was down a little bit. I think it was probably down about 10%, but the quality was much higher. So they, you know, for them, a wet year for vineyards is really, really challenging. Yeah. But yeah, they had, yeah, he, Dave, I think it was David Keckin, yeah. They- there- there's that- he lost this entire crop. He probably talked about Yeah, that yeah. Yeah, you know, all of our farmers are facing it one way or another. And it was my understanding that the farmers that had to deal with the drought were not the farmers that had to deal with the flooding prior to- I think for the most part, yeah. I think some of the Aspen County farmers with Lowland What's Aspen County? Like, yeah. That's why I work, man. If the dairies, they're

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: you know, if

[Sam Smith (Farm Business Director, Intervale Center)]: they have really wet year and they're out on the Play Plains, they have a really hard time getting corn in and out, and the folks that have a sort of diversification of growing areas have a much better time of weathering both drought and wet periods.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We're gonna move on. We want thank you very much for attending all. It's good to see you back soon. Yeah.

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: Jose, Rosemary. Thank you

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: for Roseline. I

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: didn't do

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: it. Good. I in the chair. I clean up.

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: Oh, dear.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Welcome.

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: Thank you.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: You're very welcome.

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: I'm very honored to be here today. Hey, Mary.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: We're honored to have you.

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: I'm very excited. It's my first time being here.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So, may I help?

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: I, my name is Rosalie Williams and I used to be an organic dairy farmer for thirty some odd years. The farm that I have now was given to me by a dear friend that my grandmother actually delivered him and his brother in the house that on the farm and anyway, through the years, I've been really wanting to to continue with fire but we had some horrible situations that happened. Because of Vermont Land Trust and Lamar Housing. Yeah. For coalition. Was able to save it so I could pass it down to my family like I've always wanted to. My original farm I grew up on in Bakersfield. Been in Bakersfield for sixty nine years. And I just farming has always been in my blood. I grew up with oxen and horses. So anyway, sorry. I'm rambling on here.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: It's fine. Alright, the floor is yours.

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: I I just, my kids, my kids, I have two daughters. I I had a son. He died in the military and he always said, mom, can you imagine what you'd be doing with this fire? So, one of the wishes that I always wanted to do was to continue to farm

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: at

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: the farm where I am now. Actually, I had to sell my cows because I

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: had

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: a horrible fire and burnt burnt my home and electrocuted when the lightning strike went, did a power surge, and killed almost half of my herds. I didn't have insurance on them. So, I didn't have the funds. I did not have insurance. Couldn't afford both. Being a small farmer, I had about 80 plus head. And so it kind of forced me to diversify my farm, is something I always wanted to do anyway. Eventually, was going to start breeding my dairy herd into Angus. I've always been partial to Angus cattle, which is what I'm doing now. So, the gentleman who actually gave me my farm, we had an agreement between us. His name was Eli Joyle Junior. He's the gentleman that my grandmother delivered. And the promise was to keep it a farm no matter what. And I said, Junior, what if I can't farm anymore? He said, I don't care if you raise chickens. He says, Don't ever sell it to a developer or anything. And through the years, my farm is a beautiful, scenic farm. It shows, I believe, 6,800 acres of panoramic view of the mountains all the way around me. Less than two, three acres, have Cold Hollow, which is, I call it my mountain because I grew up there in Spapersville. People always wanted to purchase my farm.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: How many acres are you?

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: Two forty eight. One day I had somebody come up to me and say, because I was getting in a situation where I was possibly looking at a tax sale. And I said, I don't care what happens. This farm will not be sold to a developer. And I've had a couple that offered me some serious money for my farm. My kids, I know that they will actually come up, step up to the plate because that's, they grew up there. So, when I was approached, when I asked about Remote Land Trust, I said I had approached them many years ago, but at that time they weren't interested in my farm, the other farm that I had. This time around, I felt very fortunate to say, I want to conserve this land. It's just beautiful farmland and it's it deserves to stay that way and I kept my promise to mister Doyle. That's what makes me feel really, really honored is because I found out at the closing that Mr. Joyal had actually him and his brother back in 2004 had had wanted to try to get in for a lot of interest. And so I kind of kept his dream and not kind of. I did keep it straight and his wishes. When I look out across the house and I see that huge field out there, say, God, I could have put 50 houses in there. I would have made a lot more money. No. No. Because that's not what want to do. But because of my land trust or my house in publishing, I actually lived the dream that I wanted to do. Oh. And mister Joy's wish. And it just makes me feel really good to know that there's an organization out there that's willing to work with farmers to keep it agriculture. Okay. Or I guess housing. Sorry. Just, I, it helped me financially. And in fact, I told Tucker that I didn't do it for the money. I did it because I wanted to conserve. And I had no idea how to do it. Until somebody said it to me. I said, wow. And being a farmer, being sheltered in East Bakersfield my whole life, you didn't hear about certain things. Then NRCS started getting involved in projects and it opened my eyes and I started telling other farmers and before you know it, I mean, I've got neighbors now that are conserving their land. So, I feel good about it. And I hope that you folks do support, you know, budget or whatever. I don't know what the right words are, but You

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: said all the right words. How many beef animals are you running now?

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: Right now, I've got 10.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yeah. Here you go.

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: But I started milking with two.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Oh, yeah.

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: And a 105 calves, which I know by hand. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Troy, you think it's your your goal to start producing building again?

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: No. I if my family wants to, that's fine. I got a whole brand new barn and a brand

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: new

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: house. Everything electrical and everything, the barn has been done over. But not too many farmers can afford even young farms. I got a young farmer right now that would like to start a farm milking but they can't afford it. And I feel bad because it's part of me who wants to say, Just come and do it. But I know that would be the right thing to do, but that's how I would feel. I'd say, Hey, just come and, you know, do it. That's something they had to love for. And I did hear somebody say earlier that their kids were interested. Some of their kids were not interested in farming. When I was a kid growing up, I hated

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: farming. Amen.

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: I missed one day at school. I missed one day of school in twelve years. I got an award for it. Graduation in 1974. Fifty two years or so. And now I love it. I grew up loving it. Yeah. I'm with my aunt my aunt man's farm. It was a woman's job back then. I wasn't in the house baking cookies and stuff. I was out actually working the land with my oxen. I always had oxen. I had purebred devons. So, yeah, that's how I did everything. From planting three acres of potatoes to sugaring, you know, three, four thousand perhaps of Sugar Woods to going to church on Sunday. So anyway, I it's just amazing that there's, like I said, this organization that helped me to realize I can do anything. And I I I am I do speak with a lot of younger people. I work with teenagers and stuff. Thousands of them. And actually I they think it's amazing what I've done as a female. So they just say can do anything and that's what I truly believe in. And if you got somebody that can support you, it's even better. And like I said, I didn't do it for the money. But yes, it helped me. I don't have to worry about having a tax sale next year because I'm two years behind the tax season.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: Questions? Questions?

[Steve Collier (Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets)]: No. How

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: long have you been at this time with the Lantras nine? How

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: long ago? Yeah. A year maybe?

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: A year. So it's a year into it. Okay.

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: Yeah. Well,

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: very inspiring. Thank you and greed. Thank you for your story. Thank you for what you do. Did we get everybody?

[Steve Collier (Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets)]: We did. I think so.

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: Well, did forget something. We did find some wetlands on my property, and we're working with conservation and as we asked to actually plant trees. There's because a couple acres of that. I wouldn't have been able to do that all the way.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, thank you very much. I want to thank all of you folks. We're honored to be of service to all of you, appreciate all that you do. We are here to work for you, and that's what we do every day. So thank you very much. I appreciate you coming in. We're gonna move on to our next subject, but you guys have

[Abby White (Co-Chair, Vermont Housing & Conservation Coalition; Vermont Land Trust)]: I got it. Good job. 37

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: points. 37 was the breakdown. Okay. I went to buying actual property and and then straight up.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: It's up to whatever they decide. Yeah. We lose Steve.

[James Pepper (Chair, Vermont Cannabis Control Board)]: I can do it. I'm just wondering. Yeah.

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: I'll I'll pop out.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I'm not here.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Hey, sir. Yes. Steven, what's taking this? It's either broke. The fever broke. So we're here. Under

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: a 100. So

[Al Karnatz (Vermont Land Trust – Farmland Projects)]: it's only not for me, anybody. It's my son. I

[Steve Collier (Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets)]: want you to know it was a 131. Stand on some sort

[Rosalie Williams (Farmer, Bakersfield)]: of chef.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: But I think I see the seat. No.

[Steve Collier (Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets)]: No. I'm fine. Honestly, it's the first day. Just

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Turn around, basically.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Way I can run

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: real quick.

[James Pepper (Chair, Vermont Cannabis Control Board)]: Slut. Slut.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Slut. Slut. Slut. So we're gonna talk about some subjects that are going on. We are very fortunate to have a room full of people that are making a lot of those big decisions. Have been very fortunate and a lot different thought processes on this. We want to be a big community partner with the cannabis control board. We want to help everybody that's farming hemp to be able to navigate the tough waters that we have going on. We've also been very honest with everyone that we are not part of the regulatory process of the hemp. We will support the Cannabis Control Board in any way that they need us to support them. Our role here is to help farmers produce, to be able to deduct, to be able to do everything that it is possibly could be happened to be a farmer in the hemp industry and to help the cannabis control board in any way that they've asked us to help them to get to that point. With that being said, I've missed a lot, but who would like to lead it off?

[James Pepper (Chair, Vermont Cannabis Control Board)]: I think I will. Okay. If don't mind. Yeah. Thanks for that introduction. For the record, my name is James Heffernan, Chairman the Board. And, I I I mean, we're here because of there's a lot of federal confusion and shifting sands, and a lot of hemp farmers and hemp processors are getting caught in the middle of all of it. And, you know, sharing closely visited a couple of these farmers, you've seen their operations, you've seen how these plants go from, you know, being in the grounds to the products, and right now, there really is very minimal oversight over any of that, and what I find very heartening is the very farmers that are in the middle of this are asking for a regulatory home. Doing things right, they're holding themselves to good manufacturing practices, they're requesting to a certain extent that their products be age gated if they have THC in them. They're doing things the right way, but with the shipping sands the pilot program going away, they need someone to just they need to kind of register with some agents, their banks, insurance companies, and know who they are. They know that they're above board. So I've been working on a proposal that the the 30,000 foot view of it is it takes as much of what's in title six currently, the existing hemp statutes, and moves it over to title seven where the CCB statutes are, Canada statutes are. And I think what that does, it has some updates just because the market has evolved so dramatically since the passage of the Farm Bill and Farming Lansingen, and the rules that were adopted for hemp were from 2020, so it didn't necessarily contemplate, you know, the kind of evolution of this market. So there are some divergences or updates to the language. But for the most part, what it does is preserves the existing processes, rules, infrastructure that was built and that, you know, we have a model in Vermont, just shift that model from one agency to the other. I think the benefit of that is that the industry understands it. And when it comes to any of those kind of divergences that I talked about between the existing statute, that would happen through rule, rulemaking. But we have the foundation of the rule that agency of agriculture developed in 2020. And the rulemaking process, the inclusive process involves industry input, public safety input, public health input, and ultimately legislative approval. So I don't feel like it's necessarily the best idea to get into the line by line. I can certainly

[Steve Collier (Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets)]: I have the proposal. I've shared it.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I've shared it with you. Yeah. We have it here. Does the committee have any questions that they wanna, you know, to dive down into? You know, I

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: think

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: the hardest part with the committee is gonna be is to understand our charge. You know, what are you asking us to do? What do you want us to do? And I know, you know, we've had some very, very broad discussions. We've had, I mean, Steve's had, you and I've had, and we've had, you know, I've visited and I've done, but, but to bring the committee on board with what you want us to do. I think you've done that a little bit with what it is, but I actually trying to commit. Do you have any questions that you wanna be asking right now? Do we wanna continue on?

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Just just so I'm clear, your your constituents are clients, so to speak. They're they're they're asking for this because it would help them better get loans, get get, other official documents, things of that nature.

[James Pepper (Chair, Vermont Cannabis Control Board)]: Is that that's right. And it and it will also differentiate the legitimate businesses from the ones that are really just exploiting loopholes that make high potency products that, should be called cannabis products or called hemp products. This has allowed these businesses to essentially just be operate above board, because right now, no one's registering them. No one's licensed. They don't want a bank. You you wanna open a bank account, they're they wanna know who you are and what

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: you do. Really don't have that.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Very rarely did do entities come and say, hey, we want government regulation. Yes,

[James Pepper (Chair, Vermont Cannabis Control Board)]: I know. I'll leave it to the people that are in the room that are existing in this gray area right now to actually ask for that. My job is to just say, this is how we can do it responsibly. Okay.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I think that's the way it's all been. I mean, you know, James and I have been talking for a long time about this and Sam and you know, and I went and saw and and to hear the some of the compelling stories. And and, there are some people in here that I think not in here, but there are some people within the industry that have wanted to be cannabis producers, but yet fall under the hemp rules. That's something that I don't think that that's a part of what we want to try to do here. Think we wanna just get them to protect this part of it. So, yeah, I think it would be helpful to have some other folks tell us what they'd like us to do.

[James Pepper (Chair, Vermont Cannabis Control Board)]: Yeah, I don't have much more to add. Mean, I'm happy when the time comes to walk through this proposal line by line if you'd like to, or have your alleged counsel do it.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Probably haven't had the counsel do it. Let's hear the rest of the folks in the room, so that we can get an understanding of, again, what our charge is and so that we stay in our lane.

[Steve Collier (Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets)]: That's

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: great. Thank you, folks. Thank you. Good insight.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: So someone did bring samples.

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: I know. I

[Sam Bellavance (Founder, Sunset Lake CBD, South Hero)]: I I I know. I I my name is Sam Elevance. I'm a farmer in South Huron, Vermont. My family has dairy farm, and I started growing hemp in 2018, and I'm the founder of SunCell Lake CBD. So I put together a couple of slides here, and, again, forgive me. I'm mostly focusing on farming, not presenting to senators. So I I'm trying to make this as clear as possible here. Thank you. But I wanted to just tell a little bit of the story so, you know, what's the issue we're facing. And why are we Very helpful, Steven. Why are we calling for this? And I'm keeping it all big picture. Sure. So in 2014, the agency of agriculture started a hemp pilot program. And from 2014 to 2021, we saw this boom in hemp growing. From, you know, myself to Rick Nelson, who's now in the house, was growing hemp at his farm. So you have lots of dairy farmers such as myself growing hemp, veggie farmers growing hemp, and we had this consistent growing industry because we had a clear supply chain and a clear regulatory framework from the time the plant was put in the soil to when it was processed to when it was a finished product. And having that clear framework made it really easy to grow and scale your business. Business. So by 2021 at our farm, we had 15 employees. They're growing 30 acres of hemp, which we turned into a 100 liters of intermediate, just the raw CBD oil. And we turned that into $2,000,000 of CBD products. If you talk to any dairy farmer, 22000000 for 30 acres, that's pretty dang good. We wish you could get that for corn. So this was really seeming like this bright future for Vermont agriculture. If you go to the next page, what happened in 2022? In 2022, we had the ending of Vermont's hemp pilot program, and you can see here from this USDA data, we went from eight eighty six acres of hemp in 2021 to nine acres of hemp in 2023. Five of those nine are me. So in 2022, when that hemp program ended at the agency of agriculture, we put the cultivation of hemp under the jurisdiction of the USDA, which is a federal agency. We put the regulation of finished CBD products like these under the cannabis control board, but there was no clarity on that oil, that intermediate, that necessary step to get from point a to point b. It's like if there was no regulation on sap. There's regulation on syrup on trees, but there's nothing you have to go through that full supply chain. And even if you're not an expert on hemp, all of you

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: know in

[Sam Bellavance (Founder, Sunset Lake CBD, South Hero)]: agriculture, stability and supply chain clarity is key. If producers don't know what's gonna happen to their product, they won't produce it, and that's what happened to Vermont's hemp industry. It fell apart because the supply chain was not clear. Unfortunately, tragically, ironically, at the same time period, the national market for hemp products moved. So now by 2025, there is a national hemp market of $28,000,000,000. And Vermont, despite having incredible farmers, despite having very innovative producers making great products, we really haven't been able to capture that because our supply chain here is so disjointed. We have a federal agency, an ambiguous processing language, and then a state cannabis agency. So while that's been booming, you know, we've seen more and more of out of state hemp products, including the, you know, dangerous, toxidating products we've talked about. Those have been coming into the state. So instead of being a leader and a producer, we become an importer of products, a lot

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: of which, frankly, we don't want in the state. And doesn't correct me, Sam, if I'm wrong, because it does get to another point that I'll make. Doesn't it bring it in that product, that oils that are there? It's almost violating federal law by transporting that across lines. If we're getting into the state, even though at the end of the day that your goal is to take that because there's too much THC in it, then your goal at the end of day is to dump that down so that your product goes out so that

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: it isn't infused with THC,

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: but are we kind of in a gray area right there bringing that product in across the line?

[Sam Bellavance (Founder, Sunset Lake CBD, South Hero)]: It is in a gray area, and I think you need to be really careful with how that's handled, and I think having an agency like the Cannabis Control Board draw really clear regulations for how this product will be handled, when could it be imported, when shouldn't it be imported, what can it be used for, can it be used to make this product versus this product? And right now none of that exists. It's all ambiguous.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: And committee, just to let you know where my thought process has been all along on this, my whole goal, I shouldn't say my whole goal, one of my goals into this is to get this production of hemp back into Vermont, a lot like what the acreage is there, and not have to import that product coming across, be in that gray area, letting Sam go make deals whether with himself or other neighboring farms to say listen, if you grow it, I'll harvest it. There might need to be at some point in time a ramp up time to get to that point, but my goal is, when it's all said and done, is to try to have almost all the product that these Vermont farmers need, these Vermont producers need, be grown in Vermont and create more opportunity and to create better markets. So that's kind of where we're at. So continue on, and if anybody's got any questions on that, shortly, I'll jump in.

[Sam Bellavance (Founder, Sunset Lake CBD, South Hero)]: No. Thank you for your comments, and I appreciate your sentiment and your work on this issue. You know, what I see here ultimately is the path forward. And like like you said, it's rare for some of the industries, you know, hey, regulators, you know, have more oversight here. Centralizing the control of the process from hemp farming to that processing of oil to the finished product under one state agency, because I need to know who is in control of the supply chain. These questions need to be answered. It was the agency of ag. If it's the cannabis control board now, that's fine. But we just need one agency who can control that supply chain. So that's part of what this bill does, and I think it's a great start here. I'll be done here in a minute here. Fine. So outside of just, you know, centralizing authority to the cannabis control board, we really need to make up with lost time from the past few years. It's not enough just to centralize that authority of the control board. We need to give them a mandate to actually promote the cultivation and the production of these products. That's what the agency of agriculture had, and that's why we had such a boom in hemp. So I think a lot of this bill is calling for rule making. I think if we have Vermont farmers such as myself, CBD producers, agency of agriculture staff, make sure we're at the table too to help the cannabis control board during that rule taking. And then lastly, have some specific recommendations for this bill. I won't read all read all of those off now, but we have them here. For the record, know, ultimately, it is getting to that vision of if we're gonna pass a piece of legislation, the end goal has to be supporting hemp farmers and supporting access to these products. I think it's important to note too, there was recently an executive order from the White House stating that it was their intent to promote access to full spectrum CBD products for Americans. So this is something that there is support for at the federal level, not only from the executive, but from our congressional delegation, and I think it'd be great for the Vermont Legislature to hold up as well.

[Steve Collier (Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets)]: Wow. Sounds like a lot of these readouts.

[Sam Bellavance (Founder, Sunset Lake CBD, South Hero)]: So yeah. Good. And lastly, just picture of me on my tractor as good as I could help myself. No problem. Yeah.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: So bullet point two on that last recommendation. Yep. If you remove all reference to the THC limit I'm trying to come up with a way to clearly define what the differences are. Sure.

[Sam Bellavance (Founder, Sunset Lake CBD, South Hero)]: Yeah. I and I I don't necessarily want to remove all limits. I think I would remove that specific point four language, and I would replace it with what we have in an emergency rule from the cannabis control board. Our cannabis control board has done a very good job of dicing out, here's a CBD product, here's Sam's HEPA lotion, and here is an intoxicating dummy pretending to be hemp. So that emergency rule sets it at one point five milligrams, twenty to one CBD to THC ratio. That's done an excellent job of weeding out the bad actors in the center screen. So I would say if we are gonna have a number in this pill, I would have that number or I would have no numbers at all. My fear is that a producer, we have one number in statute, and then we have another number in rule, and I don't know, am I making my products to rule or to the statute? It gets at that lack of clarity is kind of the overall problem here.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: Okay. And I don't know what the numbers mean anyway, Is to be it similar to what we do with alcohol where we've passed into statute, I guess it's statute, right, an amount of blood alcohol content. If you're driving and it's point zero eight, you're legally over the limit. I don't know how we came up with that number. I don't know if that number means anything to anybody. Well, does if you get pulled over and you're above it, I know that. Beyond that, I don't know, and you get to a certain point where, I mean, you're in danger of killing yourself if you have too much So alcohol in your I don't know what the numbers mean, and I don't know how they arrive at. How do they decide that you're intoxicated if you go beyond a certain layer?

[Sam Bellavance (Founder, Sunset Lake CBD, South Hero)]: Well, I think that our board arrived at that number through looking at lots of research from different health agencies, from speaking with members of law enforcement, from arriving at a reasonable conclusion based on what other states are doing. At the end of the day, you you are just picking a number, but I don't think that was done without a lot of thorough scientific basis behind it. And what I like, that rule that the board put in place in 2023, my business can operate successfully based on that. And my biggest fear is that a new cannabis control board down the line okay. Do they change that rule? Does that change? I'm making products. I have a production facility. I have equipment. I can't have that number go up and down all the time. And I mean, you know this from dairy. It's, you know, you're investing in a milk bottle. Yep. Things need to be stable in order to recoup that investment, so stability is key.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: And the same thing with some regard to maple. Exactly. We know we rate maple with different Well, and I

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: think that number is very important to this committee as well. These folks, because I've spent some time with them, have heard me said over and over, and you guys might have heard a little bit about it as well, although we haven't spent a lot of time with it. I've said, You know, listen, hemp to me is not an intoxicant and marijuana is. I think it's very important to understand where that number is in this committee because, again, I have said over and over and over time, there comes a time when we're going to support the farmer why that product's at the field, but once it gets to be different or once it gets to be processed, especially if it's cannabis or marijuana, it's gonna go to other regulatory authority, not us. So that number is very important to us so we can focus on that and make a rule. I think it's very important that we come to that agreeable number, which we have.

[Sam Bellavance (Founder, Sunset Lake CBD, South Hero)]: Yeah, I think we have, and I think it's, like you said, it's rare for industry to say, Hey, our governing body passed a really good regulation. Let's get it codified. I think this is something we have an opportunity to deal overall, stabilize the supply chain, make things predictable so producers such as myself, can get that requirement, if you have any other questions, happy to answer. Well,

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: who's next? Very well done, bud.

[Sam Bellavance (Founder, Sunset Lake CBD, South Hero)]: Thank you.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: You make

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: a good lobbies. Who's next? Yes, Steve.

[Steve Collier (Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets)]: I can be if you're an expert, I'm the least important person here.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, think you're very important because, again, the other trick is, too, and I think the reason why we need to be very, very clear, and that seems to be the word, clarity as far as where we're at, is that we also need to make sure that the federal government is good with what we do, because we don't want to get into the point of having them with a $31.1100000000 dollars they want to give us saying you guys are blowing the lines of where you want to be. So we want to be we we got to be very careful with the the difference between hemp and marijuana.

[Steve Collier (Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets)]: Morning. Steve Collier from the agency of agriculture. So we're here just to express our support for what the proposal would do. I mean, in reality, this was always intended back when the transition back when the cannabis control board was started regulating cannabis in the state. Hemp came first. Cannabis came later. And it always made sense to us that once cannabis was regulated in the state, that cannabis would also encompass hemp. And that was that happened. We transferred positions to the cannabis control board. The idea was that people a lot of people who were in the industry would want to do perhaps both cannabis and hemp, and so there's just a lot of reasons why it made sense to consolidate, but we never really finished the job. And so from our perspective, this is finishing that transfer more formally, like, in statute, giving the cannabis control board the authority they need to be able to regulate them. And and the gap that the the background is horribly complicated. I don't think it's necessary unless you want to get into all of that, but it is really important that the key distinction between hemp and cannabis, same plant, it's whether or not it's intoxicating, and more specifically, whether or not it complies with federal law. When you comply with federal law, the advantage is you have a national market, and that is the big difference, that if people in Vermont are growing hemp, you'd like nothing more than to see exactly what Sam was referencing, more hemp production in the state, that's great for our farmers. We want them to have that opportunity, but that opens up a national market, whereas cannabis, you'd only get a domestic small state market. So it's vastly different and and potential. And so it's really important for the folks who are processing hemp within the federal standards, and, unfortunately, those change and become more cumbersome, more uncertain, and a lot of the things that Sam was talking about with uncertainty is because of the disparate federal and state overnight. But hemp processors have been successful in Vermont. Hemp farmers could be successful in Vermont, we believe, and having a consistent regulatory overlay. And I think the importance here, to senator Major's point, you don't often have industry coming in clamoring for regulation. But but here, if you're not able to prove that you're a legitimate business rather than potentially violating federal law, then it's your access to resources can be quite different. So it is important that they have a home and that they are regulated, and also so that they're regulated so they're actually producing hemp products and not cannabis, which is fine, but needs to be in a different vein. So from our perspective, it makes all the sense in the world to consolidate this. The cannabis plant is the same regardless of how much THC is in it, and so having the expertise and your regulatory authority and consistency building that program within one place makes a lot of sense. Not in the process intermediary question that you raised, Senator Ingalls, is that's a challenge, there is some gray area. And there needs to be a path in our in our estimation to to make to make that work so that current hemp processors can be can continue to work, but also to make sure that they're be complying with federal law so that they don't lose access to that federal market. So it's we're very supportive of this proposal. We hope that you all will be too. The details, obviously, and implementation will always be more challenging, but the actual legal request to move this authority from us to CCB is pretty straightforward, I think.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: Yes. Good to see you, Steve, as always. Time wise, or timeline, was hemp was put in with ag in Title VI originally because at that point, we hadn't legalized marijuana, I assume. Once we did, Title VII kind of fits better because it has to do with alcohol and tobacco and now cannabis. So in a sense, all we're doing is reaffirming It's hard to explain this. I know what I'm trying to say on my mind. Me too. We have the same plant, but we bifurcated the products therein, and what we wanna do is put hemp back, kinda like separating it. Exactly right, in recognizing

[Steve Collier (Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets)]: that it can be used for different purposes. Yeah, okay. And even if you're trying to grow hemp, can mistakenly grow cannabis. And so there's a lot to it in terms of the regulation. It makes sense to have one home for it, but you're right, cannabis hemp first became legal in The United States, including in Vermont, in 2014 Farm Bill. There was a pilot project. That pilot project was pretty permissive, so it was relatively easy for folks to operate within it. In 2018 Farm Bill, the clamps were put down a bit, and so the the most importantly, the level of THC was significantly lessened. It was made clear that you had to count not only the THC, nine nine THC, but the THC A, which is also in the plant, not but not until you burn it. So once it became clear that you had to meet this point three delta nine THC after it's called decarboxylation, then it became really difficult to meet the standards, and it's been harder ever since then, And now there's a new federal law that goes into effect this November that's still making it complicated. It's a challenging environment, but it's one that, in our estimation, the CHEM's control board is certainly best equipped in a handful.

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: I'm fully in support of moving these provisions to a different level. I think it would give

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: farmers less worry

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: of being under a federal spotlight if it's out, and that's all we're talking about, and, phew, now we don't have to worry kind of thing, is is the wording of this it looks like and I I'm used to when I see underlying words, go, that's a new one. But it seems like it's just literally picking up the provisions that were in one title and moving it. I don't see any changes here.

[Steve Collier (Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets)]: I don't I I I don't know that that was red line diversion that you have, so it it's mostly models what's in title six now,

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: but I think

[Steve Collier (Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets)]: there are some. There definitely are some changes. I don't know. And that and I think if if this is submitted to legislative council, I'm sure that they'll give you a a typical draft of how of how what would we do in title seven. Okay. And if you ask, it certainly can't control board or other side. Counsel or us could contrast it in the title six as well.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Mean There's

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: fees here, which I don't know Those

[Steve Collier (Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets)]: are different. I believe those are I believe those are different than the projected fees based on CCV. Well, we had we had different fees, some of which were, I think, in federal law and some of which were not. Okay.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: And I didn't know if

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: there was any additional requests from Cannabis Control Board for new positions because they're, I

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: try to read it all the way through.

[Steve Collier (Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets)]: They're not asking for new positions.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Maybe I'm making it more complicated. Well, I've maybe put the cart before the horse a little bit, but I thought that maybe the backstory a little bit about what we would do would be very important to yours because it would be very dry for us to read down through here and not understand what we're trying to do. What we'll do next is we will get lich gasol in here and look at it probably a little bit more complete bill form and just make sure that, because again, we have to understand it, we have to explain it, we have to know what we're doing, and it's a subject matter that you guys haven't been exposed to, me and the committee hasn't been exposed to, but I thought a lot of backstory would be very valuable. I also think it's a backstory that needs to be told that we are here to help as well. We want to help. We want to help the cannabis control board. We're very honored to be their partners in this, and we just wanna make sure that we do what's best for the hemp farming industry in the state

[Mark Guttel (Owner, A Kinder Way Berry Farm, West Pawlet)]: of Vermont. And are we trying

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: to slide this into the miscellaneous bill?

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yes, yeah, it will be added to the miscellaneous bill. Great. Yeah, so. So anyone else?

[Kyle Harris (Staff, Vermont Cannabis Control Board)]: Just a point of clarification, Kyle Harris, Cannabis Control Board. Yeah, come on up. Sam had referenced an emergency rule that we did do to kind of handle some of these issues, which had to do with that ratio, that one point five milligram per package letter that Sam referenced. That emergency rule has been incorporated into our board rules. Carol, If you're familiar with administrative legal jargon, administrative rules expire, so that rule is still in place and incorporated the last time we opened our rules. Certainly appreciate Sam's wanting of this to be more affirmatively put in statute, though. Just wanted to make that point of clarification, and I think to some of your questions from a Title VI to Title VII perspective, when the hemp program does the Essex District Agriculture before, I was with the Cannabis Control Board, and some of that language conveyed to the Cannabis Control We, the Cannabis Control Board, we found out, because lots of redlining, so on and so forth, that we, the Cannabis Control Board, did not get the language to properly license processors of hemp, and so there's this business back and forth of trying to get that authority in the Title VII, which is where a lot of the Cannabis Control Board's authority lies. USDA regulates up and to the point with which it's tested out of a farm field and not of any products thereafter. We've just created this big vacuum of the products that you've seen that Pepper put on the screen when we were in here last time, and folks have figured out how to market these in ways mimic a lot of what the cannabis markets around

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: the country intend to do. So just a couple points of clarification for you. Will this help for people that want to grow hemp to make fabric, or will that not affect, will it make it easier to farm because we had a big push

[Al Karnatz (Vermont Land Trust – Farmland Projects)]: last year? I believe so, and there's differences in terms of the commodity hemp markets from a textile manufacturing perspective, those that are trying to sell products like Sunset Lake and others that are intended more for a consumer.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: But if we scrape this look, this

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Well, Jeff, you wanna you wanna add something to that?

[Jeffrey Pizzutillo (Executive Director, Vermont Growers Association)]: Yeah. I mean, I I think, for the record, Jeffrey Pistillo from our growers association, I think when thinking about the industrial uses of hemp, which a great, great question, by the way, senator. It really comes down to how do we wanna regulate this at the cannabinoid sort of chemical level, which is largely the premise for this conversation so far, CBD, THC, versus removing all of those compounds from the understanding of a regulatory and thinking about fiber, textiles, and the expensive processing equipment that needs to stand up those materials to get into the supply chain. So much different conversation, but absolutely, I think we should be having that one as well. So just want to

[Al Karnatz (Vermont Land Trust – Farmland Projects)]: say a good part. The voting is certainly somewhere with this, but that question is is an important one. From a commodity perspective, that can do what a lot of other commodities do, depending on

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: the incentives. From what I understood last year was that, again, there's no regulation, so I wanted to start farming it into textiles, being able to go and say, Hey, it's legitimate in the state of

[Al Karnatz (Vermont Land Trust – Farmland Projects)]: Vermont now. I think so. I'm not sure that the business world has caught up to that attention yet from a scale perspective. There's a lot going on with hemp overseas and trying to turn it into things, and elsewhere around the country with turning it into a plastic, bioplastics, so on and so forth. I know that there's been a couple individuals that have at least approached me about trying to fuel hemp processing not for THC, CBD usage, as They they alluded

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: were in this committee last year with their products.

[Al Karnatz (Vermont Land Trust – Farmland Projects)]: Yeah, I think they were in the Northeast, I can't recall specifically, but I think that's what we had been starting to get in place of clarity.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: K. Thank you. Anybody in this room have any disagreements with us we're talking about? Everybody good? Everybody nodding their head in the right direction? Anybody else have anything else they'd like to add? Yep. Couple more remarks. Yes. Absolutely. Come on up.

[Jeffrey Pizzutillo (Executive Director, Vermont Growers Association)]: I gotta say, for the record of Jeff, Vermont Association, it is it is great to hear operating the cannabis space, all misalignment across these different agencies and different parties. So I appreciate that. So very briefly, by the way, Vermont Growers Association, we are the trade association, one of them for the adult use cannabis space. People who got birth their name are these paid members who represent the entire supply chain. We're very proud of that. So why are we why are we weighing into this this hemp discussion? We're weighing into this hemp discussion because, first of all, we appreciate our hemp farmers and producers in the state, but also because there are, there's a lot of shared, regulatory and statutory overlap, and then the implications of the of that overlap between cannabis and hemp. So in its simplest form, as you've been hearing all this morning, hemp and cannabis are one thing. And so what we shared with you all over email the other day, which is our suggestions, which is largely in alignment with what you've been hearing so far, and that is a simply put one plant, one system. And I draw your attention to S one eighty eight from 2022. That was the first ag bill back then, for those who were with us, that began to recognize adult use cannabis to some degree for adopting some of regulatory benefits of cannabis. In that bill, there's actually a a trigger provision that says, should Washington DC should our federal government deschedule or legalize to some extent, then this body shall the state of Vermont shall reassess the jurisdiction for both cannabis and hemp. And so that speaks to, I think, the intention of this body for many years, and that is to keep things as efficient and as unified as possible. So we're largely here to show support for what you all have said from the purview, from the perspective of the adult use cannabis. So I'm gonna share that, and that's really, really important. You know, the recommendations that we shared with all of you, over email, the other day, were developed, with some local hemp farmers and hemp producers. So even though our members and we do focus on the adult use cannabis space, I do wanna let you know that we very meaningfully developed these recommendations that we shared with all of you, and and we hope that you take them seriously. And perhaps one sort of item that has not

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Just come up the here's the the thought here. Sure. The clarity that we're trying to bring to this is where you've said that you do gravitate towards the adult use market. It does help you to not have intrusion into your space, right?

[Jeffrey Pizzutillo (Executive Director, Vermont Growers Association)]: Correct, and that's why we're deciding to voice our opinions, is because we do see this play on other states, what we've been hearing from everyone here in this committee and across different agencies is that recognition of protecting what we do best here, which is high quality, specialized, small scale production of whatever it is, whether it's textiles or, you know, these CBD products. So with that being said, one thing that we would just put into the discussion for consideration maybe is, Poverty Places not in legislation in this particular bill, but that is to allow for adult use manufacturers the allowances to possess and process hemp derived products as well. So whether it's CBD, and we put that forward because right now we think that perhaps there aren't as many processors in the state to support the hemp farmers and bringing those products to market. We have manufacturers in the adult use space that are already set up to basically work with these plants. And so we would ask that you all would consider that that allowance for our our adult use manufacturers to be able to work with our hemp farmers as well in the space. So just a little bit of a support mechanism there to put into the conversation. Say that a different way. So we have a really diverse and vibrant quilt across our state of product manufacturers, whether they're making edibles or making, like, concentrates themselves in the adult use cannabis space. They're successful. They're talented. A lot of them are artisanal. They make very, very high quality products that compete not just with other states, but globally as well. Like we, you know, think about maple syrup in our beer, our cannabis in our hemp is no different. Very, very high quality. It can be. We have adult use cannabis manufacturers right now working in the THC space. We think it would be advantageous for the hemp space to allow them to support the hemp farmers in ensuring that their hemp products are able to reach market. Yeah.

[Sam Bellavance (Founder, Sunset Lake CBD, South Hero)]: I think what you're getting at, I mean, the equipment that's used to process hemp and turn it into CBD oil is the same equipment that's used to process cannabis and turn it into cannabis oil. It's very expensive. Mhmm. And I think what Jeffrey's getting at, you would wanna have the ability of a hemp farmer to maybe contract out to a cannabis. Hey. Can you process my, product and turn it into oil? Just because this equipment can cost over a quarter million dollars. So the reality of, oh, I'm gonna have my hemp processing building and my cannabis, people aren't gonna build two separate buildings. It's the same thing. You wouldn't have one bottling plant for chocolate milk, one bottling plant for almond. You have one plant that does separate production runs.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I get that.

[Sam Bellavance (Founder, Sunset Lake CBD, South Hero)]: So that would help out.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: That helps me, really I think it gets down to, with my thought process, is that it really don't matter to me whether that's done like that. I wouldn't have a problem with that. I think it's down to is hemp an intoxicant and marijuana is, or hemp is not an intoxicant and marijuana is. So if there was cross use of equipment and all that, think it's just down to the final product of where it's at.

[James Pepper (Chair, Vermont Cannabis Control Board)]: That's where I would be. Appreciate that perspective. So, I mean, James? The proposal leaves this question to rule making, but I certainly, at the board, recognize that, you know, you have all this existing infrastructure on the cannabis side. To duplicate that in the state, you know, doesn't make a lot of sense, but we would need, just like TTB at the federal level has concerns when you start moving THC into beverage, like beverage lines, existing breweries. There needs to be a way to make sure that there, you know, is a clean break between when you're making hemp

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: and when you're making Real crop contamination. I think this is very, very important for everybody to understand for this, is that the way I want to guide this committee towards this is not to, I think the partnership that I've had with the Cannabis Control Board has been great and it's been an honor because I've said over to James over and over and over again, we are not going to be the regulatory part of this. We are here to help the growers. We are here, we are whatever, once it gets out of that field and goes elsewhere, we understand there's going be another regulatory process and I'm going be working very, very closely as to not be stepping on any toes. My whole goal is to make sure that farmers are going to be able to grow hemp and be able to make all the deductions that they can and hopefully when it's all said and done that all hemp products that are produced in this state are grown locally in Vermont. That's what I'm trying to get to without even making regulatory on that. But to make it a process forward so that there'd be no reason why that Sam couldn't go out and say, Hey, I can't grow this all myself. Would you be willing to grow 30 acres long? Or you folks, get contractor folks and be able to supply the product from Vermont farmers to the Vermont producer. That's where I want to be a lot of the regulatory, A of the regulatory stuff, than if James Pepper says to this committee, Hey, I need a little help with this. Can you do this for us? Or Steve, HVAC, Hey, listen. We need some help with this right here. We are a partner in this and not trying to get into the regulatory

[Sen. Brian Collamore (Member)]: part. If I could

[Al Karnatz (Vermont Land Trust – Farmland Projects)]: just put a finer point or compliment Pepper's comments, think that's something that the board certainly could figure out with some strong standard operating procedures because unfortunately there is the ability to kind of invert hemp distillate into the cannabis market, which I think is something that we would want to minimize and not happen if

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: we We want you guys to tell us that.

[Al Karnatz (Vermont Land Trust – Farmland Projects)]: But I think there's an opportunity for statutory and regulatory kind of combination there to complement each other, that that's a consideration that this committee is looking at.

[Jeffrey Pizzutillo (Executive Director, Vermont Growers Association)]: Yes, we agree. And that's what we want as well. It's not a binary here, but really part of this is in recognizing that the cannabis control board has become the go to agency when it comes to this unique plant that is a high value crop that I think that, you know, and recognizing that and then leaning into the fact that they did a pretty good job in standing up the soil use market, and so we think that they can get the same. If I may, I I was not with our coalition when we were here a couple weeks ago. If just take a minute to just raise a a a related land use matter for cannabis. There has been an update, just maybe a minute or two, if if if that's appropriate. Right. So we do have this duck and hemp farmer in Essex that we're all aware of. His name is Jason Struthers.

[Sen. Joseph "Joe" Major (Vice Chair)]: Yeah.

[Jeffrey Pizzutillo (Executive Director, Vermont Growers Association)]: Had a conversation with him the other day. Essex, revoked his adult use cannabis cultivation license. And what I'm asking of all of you, perhaps for consideration this year, whether it's in a miscellaneous, ag bill or even what's being delivered over, in Seneca Con right now, two seven eight, And that is the recognizing that there's sensitivities around the federal landscape when it comes to cannabis, but, an intent and an interest to treat it as ag as much as possible while it's still in the in the earth, right, growing. And and and that is contending with these cultivation districts and these setbacks that we feel were brought to this body, this state house, for the purposes of really putting a single individual out of business. And there's no other individuals that have been, harmed as this person has in Essex by those those laws which we feel are overly burdensome. And, you know, we also feel sort of stepping back that necessarily was not the best use of the legislative branch, such that, bringing forward deliberations and discussion in this body really for the intent for a simple individual. That's the way that we see it, and we mean that as respectfully as possible. Yeah. Big big topic.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Probably nothing that we're really ready to really dive down into for a lot of reasons. One is is that we don't really have all the all the stuff in front of us. But you did say something that I will that I will I will share back, is that it is our intent in both the hemp and the cannabis world, understanding that there will be further regulation that are out of our controls and I want it to be out of our control. I want it to go over the proper authorities, cannabis control board or wherever, that we would like to be in the We would like to support anybody that puts their hands in the soil and throws a product, whether it's cannabis or carrots, and we'd like to get it to the point to where they could make all kinds of deductions that a farmer would make, again, and all of that. What's happened in Essex is it's a complicated, very complicated situation that's had a lot of ramifications throughout the agricultural world. I don't really want to get into whether farmer's been purposely harmed or not to be fair. Not what I want to get into discussion about in

[Jeffrey Pizzutillo (Executive Director, Vermont Growers Association)]: this committee. I appreciate that, and I wanted to put aside the municipal exemption discussion and just focusing on you know, those setbacks in cold prediction districts. You know, it's it's in a way, we you know, we this body afforded, regulatory benefits to a a a group, to a class, and and then pulled them back. That's what we

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: see here. Well, why don't we stay there for another discussion? What's up to that? Thank you, Chair. Okay, thank you. Anybody else? Want to thank again, I want to thank all the partners. I think we have a clear view. We'll continue all of some of our work. I thought it was valuable for the committee to understand a little bit of a backwards process for us that we don't normally do, but I think the committee understands what we're trying to do. Thank you all. Thank you. As I said, we'll continue

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: on

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: with this. Some clarification of the language. Everybody, you just if you don't understand whatever, know, I think you have a pretty wide range and broad discussion about what they're trying to do. And I think that it it it's controversial as it could sound. It isn't controversial. Thank you. It isn't controversial at the end of the day. I don't believe it is. I hope that we feel the same way. They're asking for our home. And I'm very honored to be working with other agencies and have them not feel threatened by us, just doing what we're trying to do just to protect our hearts. And supporting everyone. Right.

[Sen. Robert Plunkett (Member)]: Addison here saying, Yeah, we support the assessment of interest.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Right. Well, there's a lot of there's been a lot of tender discussions that have gone on that have been ongoing for six or seven, probably even longer than that, but I've been involved with them for six, seven, seven, It ten months, took a lot to have everybody come into this room in this same mindset. I think everybody's comfortable with that. Whole thing I tell you, our hardest thing is to be fair is for us to understand this enough to report it on the floor. That's really, to be honest, is the hardest job that we should have. Well, you'll do a great job. Senator Major is looking for me, Tony. Okay. Are we all good? Yeah.

[Sam Bellavance (Founder, Sunset Lake CBD, South Hero)]: Yes, sir.

[Sen. Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. Let's call it a day, and thank you guys for a great well, don't go off of it, Thank you guys for a very good week. We are in up to a lot of deep discussions, a lot of hard discussions. Nothing that we can't handle. We're not over our skis. We're not ahead of our skis. I think we're just doing a lot of good work for the state of Vermont and for agriculture. We're getting closer and closer every day to getting down through our bill and making it concrete. As you are very well aware, and I'll make sure that I'll say it out loud again, Linda sent out a letter to all of the affected parties one through three. They were gonna meet through this week and meet with us again on Friday. Hopefully we put some arrest to that. We're gonna continue on down through. I shared with Senator Major next week's agenda and we're going to just keep on plugging away and plugging away. Think we're making great time, great progress. Again, we're into a lot of heavy stuff that I just want to make sure that you guys, very smart committee for sure. I just want to make sure that totally you understand what we're doing, what we're trying to accomplish, and so that when you get asked questions, you're able to defend our positions or just say, This is what we're doing. So we're doing a really nice job. So thank you. Thank you for a great week.