Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I just want to comment on a great time that we had last night with the producers gathering. It's just a hard time of year to get great numbers. Everybody's getting pulled in so many different directions. Senator Major and I were able to make it up through, and it was very nice. Secretary was there, Abby was there, the agency was there and a lot of great producers. Some of them have been through our committee and some of them not, But they're optimistic. We saw a lot of what drives these folks to move on. Some of them are pet projects and pet ideas. I've talked to a lady who would like to bring flax production back in The States. She was very interested and very passionate. So yeah, it was a good evening. Glad I was able to attend and again, just kind of tells us what we do in this committee every day is making sure that the smallest voice is heard along with the loudest. It was a good time. We're going spend some time talking with Working Lands program group. We're going have an overview. As we know, it provides draft assistance to all areas of our state. I think just quickly looking through the information that's been provided, equally dispersed amongst all counties. You can tell where the farm and operations are. So who'd like to lead off?

[Elizabeth Sipple]: Me, yeah. Is it okay to stop sharing? Good

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: morning. Good morning, Amy. Good morning, George.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: Thank you. Elizabeth Sipple, Program Manager for the Working Lands Enterprise Initiative. I can see some people are diving into the hot off the press impact report. We also shared the link if people prefer to read online. So I am just serving as a bit of an emcee. I also will be presenting a part of today's testimony. But as you are probably aware, we're here today to talk about the Working Lands Enterprise Initiative. We are gonna look at some, we're gonna begin by a few reminders about the history, then dive into the cumulative impact of the program. And then we're gonna do a deep dive into the fiscal year twenty twenty five investments. You're gonna be hearing from Ellen Kaylor to begin, and then myself, and then Clara Solerno, Abby Willard, and then Catherine Servideo.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Let me just interrupt you just for a second.

[Abby Willard]: Yeah.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Just so that we don't have to be wondering all presentation, where does your money come from? Does it come from an from the governor? Where does it come from?

[Elizabeth Sipple]: It comes from an ask from the governor.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: And is there any monies in there for, what, has the governor put you in his budget?

[Elizabeth Sipple]: Yes, right now the program is in the budget for the $1,000,000 base appropriation.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay, fair enough. And

[Elizabeth Sipple]: we've functioned with the $1,000,000 base appropriation for fiscal year 2025 and fiscal year 2020 So

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: that has helped us just to

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yes.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Just clear in our brain. So sorry.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: No, no problem. So I think without further ado, I will pass it over to Ellen to begin with the history and the cumulative impact of the program.

[Ellen Kahler]: Okay, good morning everybody. For to see you the record, Ellen Kahler, I'm the Executive Director of the Vermont Sustainable Jobs Fund, however, today I'm wearing the hat of one of the three ex officio board members of the Working Land Enterprise Initiative. There are three of us, the Vermont Housing Conservation Board, Vermont Economic Development Authority and the Sustainable Jobs Fund, that in statute, we serve as ex officio members. So we fully participate in the board activities, but we do not vote on anything. So we're there as subject matter experts, but the other board members that are named in statute are the ones that actually vote on the various grants that the board wants to give out in any given year. So I want to thank you again for this time. And as Elizabeth said, I'm going to be covering the history just very briefly, and then also some of the impacts, the cumulative impacts of the program so far. And just to note, I have actually served on the board since its very beginning in 2012, and I think I'm actually the only person other than maybe Sarah Aisham from BETA who has served continuously, including the staff that have been involved. So a lot of historical knowledge about this program and its evolution over time. So just as a reminder, in 2012, the Vermont legislature and Governor Shumlin created the Working Lands Enterprise Fund to make strategic investments that support a resilient and sustainable farm, forest, and food economy in Vermont. With a dwindling working landscape, legislators in 2012 have the foresight to understand why a program like the Working Lands Enterprise Fund needed to be created, and why the program needed to be founded on the principles of widespread participation and responsiveness to an ever evolving marketplace. The Working Lands Enterprise Fund serves as one of the principal ways that the state invests in the future development of the food and forest economy, and is guided in part by the recommendations from the farm to plate strategic plan, and the forest future roadmap. So today, as the agriculture and forest sectors are seeing a reduction in federal funding, as businesses recuperate from drought and back to back years of flooding, forward looking investments to the working lands businesses in our state are needed more than ever. So before I zoom out to present the program's cumulative impact, I wanted to share just two quotes from some of our grantees that are emblematic of this program's impact on businesses and supply chains. Milkweed Farm in Westminster said, This grant directly and immediately made ongoing on-site sales possible for us. We've sold more of our own food this year than any other year. We love and take very seriously our role in connecting our neighbor consumers with our neighbor producers, and additional income from our farm store is making it possible for us to continue to sustainably grow our business, add more employees, pay our people better, invest in infrastructure improvements. We are deeply grateful for this assistance. And LSF Forest Products in Fletcher said, The yard improvements have been a game changer for both efficient work and for customers traveling through the facility. We were confident and able to buy in significantly more pine and hemlock logs this past winter than we have ever done in the past. We spent about $60,000 more on window log inventory than we have ever done, and are beginning to purchase logs again sooner during the summer than we have in the past. Over and over again, we get quotes from the grantees about just how impactful these grant funds have been to their businesses. So in terms of cumulative impact, if you want to go to the next slide, please, the Working Lands Enterprise Fund has successfully advanced the mission laid out in the program's guiding statute. The program was created to save Vermont's working landscape, and the program's thoughtful design has allowed us to successfully keep thousands of acres of land working and build long term food and forest system viability through strategic supply chain and technical assistance investments. Since 2012, $19,500,000 state funds in grants and contracts has been allocated to five ninety three working lands businesses and service provider organizations who work directly with those businesses. Additionally, 31,900,000.0 has been leveraged in matching funds from these grantees. Next slide, please. The Working Lands Enterprise Fund helps to create and protect jobs, generate revenue, and keeps the working landscape vibrant and vital. With 48% of business grantees adding new jobs, with 74% of business grants resulting in increased sales, and with over 25,000 acres benefited through these investments. Working Lands Enterprise Fund investments continue to make an impact on all 14 counties, as was mentioned earlier by the chair. And in fiscal twenty twenty five and 2026, with over $5,000,000 in requests for just $1,000,000 in funds, the program has been able to fund approximately 20% of requests. Back in 2012, when the program started, many were unsure if farmers and forest businesses would take the time to fill out a grant application, but the demand for the program, as you see on this slide, clearly dispels that concern. Whether I cross paths with a grantee out in the community or connect with them during a follow-up site visit, the feedback remains consistent. These funds are essential for farm and forest businesses in Vermont to flourish. Because I serve as the next Officio member on the board by statute, I've been part of this program's evolution from the very beginning. Each year, we assess how well we delivered the program from start to finish, and we look for ways to make improvements for applicants, for existing grantees, for grant reviewers, for board processes, and for our amazing staff. So no matter how many improvements we have made to the functioning of this program over the years, a program that so squarely delivers on its mission and legislative intent, I can tell you that the hardest part is learning about so many eligible and incredible farm food and forest related projects each year that have to go unfunded because we just don't have sufficient funding to support them. So I thank you for your time today and encourage you to continue to invest in Vermont's working landscape and the people and businesses who steward it. And now I'll pass it back to Elizabeth. Thank you.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Question for everybody? Good, very good. Thank you. Welcome.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: So now we are, or I'll state my name again for the record, Elizabeth Sipple, working as Enterprise Initiative Program Manager. So I am going to take you through an overall of the fiscal year 2025 investments and overview, a bird's eye view. Claire, Catherine and Abby are gonna do a deep dive on some of the specific 2025 investments. But I did want to, I think it's important to take a moment to highlight two design components of the program that I think are quite unique and allow the program to remain very impactful within an ever evolving context. In 2012, when the program was created, the board was tasked with administering the program. So the board dates back to the creation Act 142 that created the program. The board is made up of 20 members, each representing a seat, and the members are working throughout the farm and forest sectors across the group. And each member represents a seat from a farm and forest sector. So I think examples would be, and you can see them on this slide, there's a maple seed, there's a dairy seed, There is a logger seat. There is a wood products manufacturing seat. There is a on farm value added processing A true thoughtful diversity of the voices that the legislators who created this program wanted to be consistently involved and participate and engaged in the decision making process. I like to think of the board as the nervous system of the program. We have these very engaged sector experts that are working across the estate, talking to people, working with businesses, and then coming back to the collective and helping to make strategic decisions that both at the individual business investments, but also thinking about what are the supply chain investments that the program needs to be focused on and seeking out. The second design element that is critical to the strength of the program is our commitment to a very robust and participatory review process. Every single grant application that we receive is read by three individual reviewers. In fiscal year twenty twenty five, we received 150 applications, and each of those applications was read by three reviewers. We recruited 48 experts working again across the farm, food and forest sectors. Those experts came from these organizations and sectors represented on this slide. After the individual review of each application, the review committees gather per sector, so dairy experts, produce, forestry, value added products, specialty foods, and maple are the five sub sectors. Those reviewers gather to look at the cohort of applications from that sector and discuss them one by one, and then make recommendations to the board. And the board can then use those recommendations when they're looking at all of the applications together and making final decisions. I think the commitment that the staff and the board has to this very thorough review process is both out of respect to the applicants who have put a lot of time and effort often into submitting an application, but also in an effort to use these funds to the best and highest use possible. We do continue to offer the service, I guess I would consider it. We offer the opportunity for any applicant who is unsuccessful to request feedback on their application. And the review process, the diligence of the review process supports quality feedback, which also often helps connect those businesses with services that are available in the state, often for. So in fiscal year twenty twenty five, program was able to fund 38 businesses and service provision organizations. We invested $1,064,208 and as you saw in Ellen's presentation, we received requests for $5,372,191 And again, this is focused in on fiscal year twenty twenty five, so last year. Of the 38 projects funded, as you will see in the upcoming presentations, we funded a wider range of businesses. Our largest grantee has an annual revenue of $5,000,000 with 40 employees and eighty years of operation. And our smallest was in their second year of operation, had one and a half employees, including the owner, and had just in their first year had a revenue of $10,000 So, a wide range of new and beginning businesses, real estate businesses, and mature businesses. There's also a wide range of award sizes. The service provider and producer association grant, there was $13,000 to $50,000 Sorry, there's an error here actually. That should be switched. The service provider and producer association grant, the grant size was from 18,000 to 75,000. Okay, correct. I can reshare this. The business enhancement grant, the range of award sizes was 13,000 to 50,000. The Trade Show Assistant Grants was from 2,350 to 5,000. Beginning in 2021, the board was able to leverage special appropriations to make grant awards of up to $250,000 that would have a supply chain impact on the food and forest sectors. So think processing, distribution. In fiscal year twenty twenty five, we had the 1,000,000 base appropriation, so we did not make the larger dollar grant awards. As you can see in this slide, these are the three grant opportunities that we offered in fiscal year twenty twenty five. I do consider these to be the heart. These are the grant opportunities that we offer each and every year to allow businesses to plan ahead. The award range has changed since the beginning of the program. In 2012, max award size for any grant opportunity was $20,000 which you can see has shifted in 2025. The Business Enhancement Grant

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Give me one second. Yeah.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: What's the criteria? I mean, what was the, how did you determine about a third of the applicants were awarded. Yeah, 20%. Yeah, what was Okay, I agree. I did graduate from college, but math was not right. Best subject.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: Neither, it was not mine either. Just

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Somebody told her.

[Abby Willard]: Yeah. Somebody told me.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: In fact, Adam stole the 20%. I'm sticking with it.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: You're right.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: So,

[Unidentified Committee Member]: how did determine the awards?

[Elizabeth Sipple]: Yeah, and I think Ellen alluded to that, those are hard conversations. It's the hardest part of the work that we do, is making decisions when you know that you have very limited funding and a lot of demand and a lot of very high quality projects. So ultimately, both reviewers and the board are looking at, they're looking at the impact of the project on the business based on its scale. So a small business, it might be a very impactful project if it's gonna result in a $20,000 increase of sales, for example. That would be a big impact maybe for a small business. So I just, I think it's important to say that we take into consideration the scale of the business when looking at the impact to make sure that smaller businesses are not eliminated from being funded. So we're looking at the impacts on the business, and then we're also looking at landscape level needs. So if a project is going to benefit multiple businesses and it's a needed service in the landscape, that's very important in the conversation. But the key impacts that the board looks at are increase in output for production, increase in labor efficiency, creation of jobs, increase of acreage and production, equity impacts, climate adaptation, projects that are supporting climate adaptation, projects that are also, in addition to when we're thinking about increased acreage, board also values projects that are resulting in the better management of acreage that's already in production. So, land stewardship impacts, and an increase in sales. So those are the key impacts that the board is reviewing for each and every project. In addition to making sure that the project has a strong work plan, a budget, with supporting quotes, letters of support are very important in applications. If an applicant is saying, we're gonna diversify into this new product, have they done the diligence to show that they have a market for that product, that they have a buyer? So there is quite a diversity of things that the board and reviewers are looking at to make decisions.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: That's

[Unidentified Committee Member]: right. So I'm going for a grant for $5,000 Is it as intense as going to our grant for $75,000 The paperwork, is it about the same?

[Elizabeth Sipple]: Same. Wow. Right now

[Abby Willard]: the is the same.

[Claire Salerno]: Not for $5,000

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Well, you said, you said

[Elizabeth Sipple]: 23,000 No, the trade show assistance grant is, is a, is a much more streamlined process. Okay. It's a simpler application.

[Abby Willard]: And

[Elizabeth Sipple]: I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I think we're in a review process where we are thinking about offering one of the recommendations that's come up, and I have no idea if it will be validated or not, but is to potentially create a streamlined opportunity for smaller dollar asks that really would be targeting new and beginning businesses who have a harder time providing the financial documents that we require for the business enhancement for like the $50,000 ask.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah, because I was like, wow, if it's the same for that lower amount, I'd be like, it's not, personally it'd

[Abby Willard]: be like, stop rotating. It's interesting to see, we

[Elizabeth Sipple]: added the question last year of how many hours people are spending on the application because we wanted to get a sense.

[Abby Willard]: Huge. The range is huge. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: We were shocked at like how big the range actually is. And as of now, I don't, know, I think one year data is pretty fresh, but, you know, it doesn't the time spent doesn't correlate exactly to success. So

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah, I think, you know, to make sure there's a balance, because we want to make the grant process as easy as possible, but we want as much data as possible to get an informed decision. So incredibly tough. I I I know Sunrise Farm and Yes. Junction.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: I saw a picture of you.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yes. And the eggs were spectacular. So, it's very, Doug does a tremendous

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: job, great.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: So that's an example of a smaller dollar award. Yeah. Was that an $18,000 grant Yes, I because he- Claire's actually gonna, you're talking about Sunrise, we're gonna talk about Sunrise as a smaller dollar award. And we're actually gonna be back here tomorrow with four grantees. And one of them we selected specifically because they're a small business, they received a $13,000 award. And I think it's an example of, Oh yeah, this small investment had big impacts on this business. And I think it's the same for, I think it's sort of a trend for what we see is our relatively small $50,000 of the scheme of investments, even our largest investments this year, have tremendous impact for the dollars invested. I don't think that this is new news, but we wanted to capture the cohort of our twenty twenty five grantees. Just this slide captures, we're investing in them and then they're investing in this, right? They're investing in stewarding fifteen twenty four acres. They are investing in creating sales of $12,200,000 annually and they're employing 146 people.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yes. So I'm looking through your service providers, producer, association grant, and the last three, four are basically associations for wood, job funds, housing, and Vermont Community Loan funds. The money that you grant them, is that funneling through these outfits to directly impact farming and housing?

[Abby Willard]: Yeah, so Or is that some of

[Unidentified Committee Member]: that getting caught up in administrative costs and that, or once you grant that money, they must tell you where it's going, correct?

[Elizabeth Sipple]: Yes, in fact, even before, because they

[Abby Willard]: have to put it in the budget. So,

[Elizabeth Sipple]: the Vermont Community Loan Fund, dollars, this is the Vermont Community Loan Fund, Abby's actually gonna speak to a little bit more, but I will very briefly just say that that $72,000 invested is being used to buy down interest on approximately $500,000 in loans that the Vermont Community Loan Fund is going to make to new and beginning working lands businesses. So those businesses that receive a Sprout, is the name of the program, loan pay 1% interest in the first year, 2% in the second year, then that 2% holds until they pay down the loan. So, in 2016, the board worked with Community Loan Fund to create this program as a way to make working lands dollars go farther. So, from the beginning of scrap, they have funded 55, is that right, Abby? 55 working lands businesses to date. And they, applicants, service provision applicants are allowed to request the federal indirect rate, which is 15% for administration of their

[Abby Willard]: to help keep the lights on, right? Think that's an appreciated. Just curious is what I'm And

[Elizabeth Sipple]: then the Vermont Housing, the funds to the Vermont Housing and Conservation Board are specifically for the Farm and Forest Viability Program. And these funds cover business advising services for, and there's two types of business advising services. There's like the two year program and then there's a sort of lower time commitment program. So they do 20 businesses for the deep dive two year program, and I think it's 10 for the It's more several consultations. So that's what those funds are being used for. And then the Vermont Sustainable Jobs Fund, this is specifically for their forest products development program. And it goes to cover help cover the cost of the summit. I don't know if anybody's participated in the Forestry Innovation Summit. It's happened for three or four years now, and it's a gathering of businesses and experts across the forest sector of Vermont to talk about emerging opportunities, struggles, innovation. And it also goes to help support some marketing and information sharing.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So, they're taking, because they come in here for funding as well. Yeah. And then they ask you for funding out of funding, we're giving you to fund them even more. Okay.

[Abby Willard]: I mean, I think

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Yep. Okay,

[Unidentified Committee Member]: thanks for answering that.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: I think the Vermont Woodlands Association would be different, right?

[Abby Willard]: Do they get direct, they do not get direct funding, do they? No, they get direct funding.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: And Addison will speak to that more too, I'm not gonna actually go into that. And I would say

[Abby Willard]: that the,

[Elizabeth Sipple]: I guess the last thing I'll say is that the Vermont Housing and Conservation Board is more so than the Forest Product Development Program is an exception. In the case that I think that they are one of the grantees that consistently receives funding from the program and is viewed as just an essential partner to the overall vision of the program, which is supporting viable and sustainable businesses. And they have to raise, in addition to the funds that they receive from the legislature, because this is something we discussed. Is there another way to do this, they ask for more from here. Is there a way to But they write a lot of grants in addition to the funding that they receive from the legislature. Our understanding is that this consistent funding is extremely helpful in keeping their contracts with the network of business advisors. I will say though, while we think it's a good data point, while we're talking about consistent funding to the Farm and Forest Viability Program, is 76% of the grantees in fiscal year twenty twenty five were first time recipients of working lands funds. 24%, doing my math, received funds previously. I think that's often a question people have is-

[Unidentified Committee Member]: That was gonna be a question, because you have so many advocates. You have some that get repeat funding, and it's just because they're shining and Boost is helping them even grow more.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: Yeah, and I think often there is a required, there's a delay, like you cannot reapply for three years. So we've functioned long enough that some folks have received funding earlier in the beginning of the program and now they have a new really important project that they want to invest in and then they are allowed to come back. As long as they've waited three years, they are eligible to come back. There is also an understanding that sometimes bigger projects have phases. And so sometimes in an application, an applicant will say, this is phase one, we're likely coming back for a phase two in three years.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Poses another question, if you have a company that's done really well, did they ever donate, then people donate to just the land initiative.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Is that possible or

[Unidentified Committee Member]: has that happened?

[Elizabeth Sipple]: We've never asked working lands businesses to donate. Well,

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I'm saying you help me build my business now, I'm doing really well, have they ever said, Hey, you'd like to

[Elizabeth Sipple]: That has not happened Okay. To But it's a really interesting idea. We have had donations from other organizations like Vermont Ski Association.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Okay, just curious. Yes.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: All right, I think, are there other questions? I'm gonna pass it over to Claire Collamore, who is going to give an overview of some specific examples of investments made in

[Claire Salerno]: For the record, Claire Salerno, I'm the program coordinator for the Working Lands Enterprise Initiative. As you can see up on the slide here, this is the range of businesses that was just discussing shortly. That were funded in FY twenty five through the Business Inhabit Grant. It's also in your printed version of the report. So, I'm gonna introduce you to some of the grantees to give you a little bit more of a story about their project and demonstrate the diverse impact that this program has on all kinds of different types of businesses. I'm not going to speak to the grantees that are featured nursing stories in the impact report. There's also grantees that are coming tomorrow to speak directly to you, so I won't speak to those today. The first one I want to highlight is Carmen Brook Farm. They're in Swanton, and this is one of the maple projects that we invested in this year. And this project was specifically around their maple syrup and candy production. So the goal was to purchase infrastructure that would meet demand, improve efficiency, and support long term business sustainability. So with the $50,000 grant, they installed a boiler system and heat exchanger, which reduces syrup eating times for bottling and candy production by 60%. And they also purchased a four port bottling system. So these improvements have allowed them to double daily production capacity. So a single employee that they have food syrup and candy can bottle barrels of syrup in four hours, which used to take eleven hours of the older equipment that they had, so it would be a significant time savings. And they're seeing an increase in serve sales and demand, so these upgrades are really essential for them to be able to meet that demand. On the other side of their production for the candy production, they purchased an electric steam kettle and a specialty vacuum cooling system, and so these tools were also essential for seeding time, so they reduced candy production times from four point five hours per batch to one point seven five hours per batch, and then they also improved product consistency and texture for maple candy. So, these are positioning the business to expand into new wholesale markets while maintaining quality. So that's a Carbon Brook farm. Agrippola Farm in Canton. This is one of the meat operation investments that were made this year, And the goal of this investment was to increase gross sales of cured meat from 13,000 per month to 28,000 per month, with a projected increase to 35,000 per month in the year after the grant ends. The grant funds were used to fund the curing cabinet. It's a special type of cabinet being in Italy and hanging racks to meet cured needs. It also increased the number of pens in the barn so that they could over mature markets so so that they can increase production now that they have increased processing capacity. They've now been able to increase the number of pigs raised at the farm annually from 140 pigs per year to two twenty pigs per year. They've also, at the same time, not funded through this grant, but in relation, they've signed a lease for a larger processing facility, which is three times bigger than the current facility, and they've secured approval from USDA to begin processing in that new space, and the entire venturing community of part time workers to help with that increased production. So our grant was one piece of a larger expansion that they have going on.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Debate, when they, yeah, the grant debate, so

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: what was the whole total? For the total

[Unidentified Committee Member]: because I'm gonna show you a project total and you

[Claire Salerno]: can Yeah, I don't know off the top of my

[Unidentified Committee Member]: head, but I'd be happy to share that for you.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: I have a question too. Do any of the, well, you've shown

[Unidentified Committee Member]: us two projects so far,

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: permitting? You mentioned that they built stuff. I would assume they had to get

[Claire Salerno]: the Yeah, some projects might require permitting. As far as that one, if it required, in terms of their new facility, we weren't really involved or overseeing that aspect of the project since it was pretty separate. So, it required Well, it really required USDA inspection, so that was something they managed separately. We've definitely run into other projects that have needed different types of permits, like wetlands permits, Act two fifty permits. And so we, in the application now, we ask questions about that to make sure that people have done their due diligence and understand what permits are needed so that we can know that the project can start on time. But our grant can also pay for permitting costs or engineering costs associated with permits that And are in the past, when we have had a few instances of grants where they didn't know they needed a certain type of permit at the time of that, or maybe they had thought they had done their check and they didn't think they needed one, and then when they started, it turned out they did. And so we've been able to extend the grant to accommodate the permitting process.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: So was any of the $43,000 used for help with permitting?

[Claire Salerno]: No, this one was just for the equipment. It is for the carrying cabinet.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: One of the things that was impressive about this grant was the amount of money they had invested in this growth, because they themselves had already invested in leasing this larger processing facility and getting it upgraded and inspected. So they had put in so much of their own money that it was like, wow, to really achieve this growth you needed a

[Abby Willard]: little push, which was like Okay, the grant

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: thank you.

[Abby Willard]: The

[Claire Salerno]: next grantee that I want to highlight is Consciousness Ed. This is one of the grants that's more on the smaller end, as well as the smaller operation. They're located in Windusky. Conscious Fiddlestead organization, they've been strategizing how to produce more food on their small sites to fulfill their community's needs. And they're also very focused on climate adaptation. Their farm has been facing increased disease pressure, soil loss, and declined plant productivity. And so the grant has allowed them to implement targeted climate resilience strategies to increase viable and reliable food production on-site. The grant project included research, development, and implementation of a climate smart garden redesign. That included site design and plant selection to optimize food production. They're very focused on community engagement in their work and in the food system. They follow the teach one principle, and the project includes community training on climate smart agriculture techniques and technologies, so they're training folks in the community as well to learn more about growing food.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Do you know how big that barn is?

[Claire Salerno]: It's pretty small. It's less than an acre.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: And they do a lot of, they do some herbal medicine as well, like they're an apothecary, and as a part of their community outreach, they provide free access to medicines to community members in need. It's an interesting process, but very small.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Right in the city?

[Elizabeth Sipple]: Right in the city.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: And under an acre.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Under an acre. But it's fetching. Yeah. Thank you. No

[Elizabeth Sipple]: No livestock. Yeah. They don't have I I they do have chickens, I believe, but they're definitely focused more on herbs and vegetables. And and they have trees. Fruit trees. And

[Unidentified Committee Member]: You're getting how the grant is looking, you're getting responses from the grantee.

[Claire Salerno]: Yeah, so they complete a report halfway through the grant period and then one at the end. And those are associated with the payments of Perfect. The on to Crossroads Maple in Enosburg and Bakersfield. This is another maple business, but more on the production side where the Carmen Burke project is self processing and value added. So, this was also focused on operational efficiency, and the grant was for upgrading technology for a vacuum system monitoring and a focus on minimizing sap loss during collection. So, that really increased labor efficiency and safety for workers during the sap collection process. And so, this farm had already invested in a base package for the monitoring system, monitors and allows for control, remote control of vacuum pumps and sap tank levels in the Enosburg portion of their Sugar Woods, which cover two forty of their four thirty acres, but the current system was not in the Bakersfield side, and it did not have the ability to monitor pressure leaks in the sap lines, it was just focused on the vacuum pumps and saptonic levels. So, this project expanded the system to all four thirty acres of their Sugar Woods, and it added automation that covers their 19,000 taps, and the ability to monitor vacuum cleaner on the sap lines themselves. And so that's like a remote control. Like, you can see it

[Elizabeth Sipple]: from your phone or from

[Claire Salerno]: a computer, and if there's a leak, you can identify where it is exactly and go fix it. So it saves a lot of time when you're you have limited time and you're boiling for hours and hours. So, they're predicting that this will yield a 20 to 30 increase in syrup produced, which would increase sales and revenue by about 70,000 annually, and it would reduce labor hours spent on sap collection system repair by up to 50%. SilvaCurl is one of the forest businesses that was funded in FY '25. SilvaCurl is a wood packaging product made from aspen wood, and it's used by businesses instead of plastic packaging. It's like little wood sheetings you can use instead of packing peanuts. So a lot of actually farm and food businesses in the state use it, so farms like Jasper Hill or Big Picture Farm, they use this packaging to ship their products. The wood is sourced from Good Bridge Lumber in Albany, who buys from Vermont loggers. They're processing about 200,004 feet of lumber at full capacity to be able to keep forest land productive, while also a focus on reducing plastic packaging. Like many small, rural businesses, they're facing a common challenge of trying to keep their website fresh and up to date. With search engines constantly changing requirements and algorithms, it's hard for any business, and especially our small rural businesses, to compete with paid advertising. So the grant paid for ongoing website work and ad campaigns on Google Ads and Amazon. And this work so far has resulted in 16 new business clients for the business, some new businesses that are using this packaging

[Abby Willard]: to ship their products.

[Claire Salerno]: This was one of the smaller sized grants as well, relatively. And then the last one that I'll touch on is Sunrise Organic Farm, which is in White River Junction, and they expanded their pasture based egg business by purchasing a 20 foot by 48 foot mobile pasture group, which replaced three smaller inadequate groups. And so, this expanded their overall production space by 50%. And the farm used funds of their own to purchase nest boxes through speed stations and related equipment to complete the new facility. So, they implemented it partway through last summer, and so their weekly egg production then jumped from 200 dozen a week to two seventy five dozen per week, which they maxed out at two seventy five just because they were unable to obtain a full order of pull ins in the spring. So, this year, they expect to go beyond 300 dozen per week, which would up from the 200 dozen per week they had for the grant. This is just a sample of some of the different businesses and projects that the Business Enhancement Grant funded in FY 2025. Kathryn is going share more about some of the forest specific projects, and tomorrow you'll hear directly from grantees as well. And then, in reading time, I'll pass it to Abby to share more about the service provider and producer association grants if there are specific

[Elizabeth Sipple]: questions. Thank you.

[Abby Willard]: Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. The Working Lands program, as you saw and heard, also makes service provision investments as well. Some of that is actually investment in service provider projects and some of it is that technical support that the team provides when applicants are applying and in feedback to applicants that aren't awarded grantees. I'll probably talk briefly about both of those. In fiscal year twenty five, there were nine investments made around service provision and technical assistance. So funding just over $369,000 in project funds. The priorities for the service provision in fiscal year twenty five was focused on business executive business skills for business planning, looking at marketing, at succession planning, and workforce development. Those priorities have actually been the priorities of the service provision investments for the past two or three years, and those priorities were identified as business assistance needs in the Ag and Food Systems Strategic Plan and in the Future of Ag Action Plan. So the board took the recommendations from the industry that was outlined in strategic plans, sort of made that a focus for their technical investment. A portion of the comment that you made, Senator Heffernan, fiscal year twenty five, fiscal year twenty six, fiscal year twenty seven, when there's just not the resources that we've historically kind of since post COVID times, it has felt really valuable to us at the agency and to the board to continue to make investments in these successful and established programs. So some of the investments are made in reestablishing or continuing to support existing programs, like what exists at Vermont Housing and Conservation Board through their Farm and Forest Viability Program, or what exists at Vermont Sustainable Jobs Fund in their work on the Forest Products Development Program. Often that's because their programs are expanding and they have an increased demand for support, so their need has expanded. In some cases, it could be loss of federal funds that they have relied upon and no longer have, or in other cases, it's an expansion of the supports that they provide in new arenas or new business types, and so that their demand for resources has grown and expanded. So that was a conscious decision of the board to kind of continue to make investments in those established programs. I'm gonna highlight a few of them. Some of them are outlined in the report as well. One that's in the report that I'll also touch on, and Elizabeth already started to share a little bit about, is the Sprouts Program that exists at Vermont Community Loan Fund, which is a partnership that was established back in 2016 with the Working Lands Enterprise Initiative. And its intent was really to not do grants and not do service provision investments, but this access to capital in a creative and alternative way. So this is one of the only ways that the Working Lands program makes access to capital investments that are not through grants or technical assistance. And the Sprout program is specifically focused on early stage and startup enterprises that may not be eligible or competitive for traditional loans and lending, and it's exclusively focused on working lands businesses, so both in the ag and food and forest food manufacturing industry. The loans are up to $60,000 of which the working lands funds helps buy down some of that interest rates. And I think Elizabeth shared that for the first two years, it's a 1% interest rate and then 2% fixed rate for the duration of the loan. There's huge leverage potential that happens through the Sprout program, so the investment that the working lands made to Sprout was $72,000 in fiscal year twenty five, and then that will leverage far more in actual loan payments to businesses.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Who thought of the Sprout loan program?

[Abby Willard]: I think it was an original collaboration between the Working Lands Board and the Rock Community Loan Fund. So I think it was a desire to help support small businesses in a different way rather than offering them a grant. I think the dollars are leveraged further, but it does support similar projects. Some of the projects that would receive a loan through the Sprout program might be, well, some of the examples are from fiscal year twenty five would be a garlic operation that's looking to put in a curing space for a diversified livestock operation that needs support for construction of a barn. So you're producing the loan at a lower rate, or you're paying, that money's used to pay on interest? It's used, if I understand correctly, to pay down the interest Pay down,

[Elizabeth Sipple]: yes. The credit. The grant funds are used to pay down And the interest the Vermont Community Loan Fund has come up with the loan cap.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: What is the gentleman standing in front of in that picture exactly?

[Abby Willard]: So that is a project I'll talk about in a moment, is, that's recycled and baled baleage wrap. So we can talk to that project next.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: I didn't know what it was.

[Abby Willard]: Yeah, no, it's, those are one ton or two ton wrapped bales of recycled slag plastic that come off of Fonkser bale wrap that the Connecticut River Farmers Watershed Alliance received a $20,000 grant from Working Lands to do a pilot on would they be able to effectively and cost effectively purchase, or excuse me, collect shrink, wrap, bail, then find a market for recycling that product. So Mike Snow's at the Ag Producers event last night and we chatted about it briefly, and they talked about this project at their annual meeting where they had probably 60 different Ag producers in attendance. This project has been really well received as a pilot project in the Connecticut River Watershed. I think their goal was to have 20 tons of product collected and bailed, I think at the time that they shared a progress report, had 14 tons currently collected and 25 farms that were participating. It's still a complicated project because it's finding the municipal solid waste districts that can then take that product and then to find a market that is interested in the recycled plastics. But they're looking at think this project has struggled at different times. I think they had a market at one point. I think last night they communicated that they're not sure that that market's really there as they had hoped. But they have receptivity from farmers that are willing to, excuse me, provide clean bale wrap that they've kept under cover, that they haven't driven over and isn't dirty, they didn't leave out in the snow in winter and is covered in ice. And yeah, they're working towards a solution for Great, believe. Yeah, it's a conundrum that we at the agency have not effectively been able to solve, but are really interested and the need continues to grow. So this felt like a meaningful and worthwhile investment. So that's what the photo is. So that's the bale wrap that's been stored at one of the farmers' locations in the Connecticut River Valley. So that's one of the other projects. Let's see, the Sprout project we discussed, some of the businesses that might have received loans through that program. And then the middle project was about $39,000 to the Vermont Woodlands Association, which was to support a merger with the Vermont LEAP program, which stands for the Vermont Logger Education for Advancing Professional ism program, that's existed for quite some time in 2014. So the LEAP program started and the objective being providing stewardship, ethic and professionalism to sustainable forestry practices in Vermont. The LEAP executive director met with the VWA board in 2024 with the objective of exploring the merger op option. And so this grant was to cover some of the legal fees, soft cover some of the exploration of that merger process, looking at some of the data and doing some administrative efficiencies, as well as hosting a series of the LEAP workshops that they do, which they did. So they hosted five LEAP workshops, which were attended by 135 bloggers. And then an additional part of the project was sort of engaging the community on the process around this merger to the Vermont Women's Association. So I bet Catherine has more that she could share as, from the forestry side, if you have additional questions about that project. Let's see, what else did I wanna share with you on the service provision? I think Elizabeth touched on earlier the fact that when, because we have five times the demand for the dollars appropriated, there are always projects that we'd love to fund that we have to deny. And part of what this team does is not only respond to questions as they come in during when a funding opportunity is open, and that could mean responding to 20 to 25 calls a week to visit with prospective applicants, but also sharing resources and alternative options of funding or projects or other resources that a business should consider when we're not able to fund their project. As well as giving them feedback on their application to improve the proposal so that it can be competitive, hopefully, in the next round. And so that's another form of technical service provision that we at the agency provide. We've chosen as the Ag Development Division not to become a technical service provider in the technical sense because we have so many organizations in Vermont that provide that service so well. But I don't wanna dismiss or miss the opportunity to highlight the essential role that both Elizabeth and Claire play in supporting so many, hundreds of businesses every year that reach out to them about the grant program or about opportunities for continuing to support their project if we're not giving them any funding. So a big part of the work that the commission does.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. So I did cheat a little bit. Sorry. Throw the head on the slide, I think Catherine will mention it. Up until now, we talked a lot about expanding business, marketing opportunities, enlarging. But we haven't talked about jobs, and I know there's a Sawyer May facility that talks about well paying, high skilled jobs over the next several years. Has anything previously that we talked about resulted in increased workforce opportunities?

[Abby Willard]: I can speak generally, but then maybe if the chair permits, think maybe Elizabeth or But Fair could speak to that more if you look in the impact report to date and you look at page three, the cumulative impact of the working lands investments, 48 of businesses claim they've added jobs. So about half of the investments have had a workforce development benefits. And in fiscal year twenty five specifically

[Claire Salerno]: We don't have that yet. We don't have that yet. Right, we won't have until those Is projects are

[Elizabeth Sipple]: there any particular project that either

[Abby Willard]: of you can think of?

[Claire Salerno]: Well, we had mentioned with Agricola that with their gird meats that they added three part time jobs.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Okay.

[Claire Salerno]: Yeah. I think we see we certainly see jobs get added for some grants, but I think we also see that labor efficiency is a key priority and that I know over the last four years that I've

[Elizabeth Sipple]: been in this role, what

[Claire Salerno]: we were seeing with businesses that could not find people to fill positions. So a lot of the grants are more about, like, okay. Well, we can't find someone to fill this position, so let's find a way to operate without needing another person. So I think it's been you see both.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: But I think I mean and, again, as there's some of these projects, we don't have the final reports for fiscal year twenty twenty five, but and some of the jobs added, and we unfortunately won't we don't cap we capture the data at the end of the grant. Sometimes the growth is still happening, and it's the growth that allows for the hiring of new jobs, but we know that Butterfly Bakery, and you're gonna hear from them tomorrow, they're projecting to add jobs. Freehurst Farm is projecting to add jobs. J. K. Adams has definitely added jobs for the- Dorset,

[Abby Willard]: yeah.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: Yeah, for the Vermont, that's specifically for this Vermont made cutting board collection. Vermont heavy timber is And, you know, and I think sometimes also these are businesses that are in growth stage. So it's like they're adding jobs because of the grant investments and they're also in a growth stage. So it's they're adding jobs even beyond the purview of the specific grant investment. And I believe Miles is also coming tomorrow for Vermont Heavy Timber, but you know, their project was very much focused on efficiency. It's a drying shed that's allowing them to have wood timbers ready when they need them, stored up so that they can be more efficient on the team. And that efficiency allows them to take on more projects and there's a lot of demand. So, you know, I know right now, I think last time I spoke to bio, you're looking to hire four individuals. But, yeah, I think, with ACRES, add in one FTE. Right? One FTE.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Okay. Just looking through Thanks, to Addison. You're welcome.

[Abby Willard]: Do I even write Capture that? Okay.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: Do you wanna share the data, the Claire's data point, the two sixty five from the beginning? I mean, that's a job, so Oh, there's jobs two greater since the beginning. Based on 59 of grantees response rate, there's been two sixty five jobs added Okay. Cumulatively from the beginning of the program, and that's obviously, that's a low estimate because it's 59% very deep response.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: It's just one measure of evaluating success, I guess. I mean, in business, if the profit margin goes up because you're more efficient, doesn't necessarily always result in more employees, and there's a triggering point at which a business person has to say, I think we could hire a couple people and keep the margins in place. So I just was kinda curious about the panelists, but

[Unidentified Committee Member]: you answered the question. Thank you. Great.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Morning. Alright.

[Catherine Servidio]: Feel a little bit like the crowdsucker in you guys. For the record, Captain Real bite. For the the record, record, Catherine's Trivideo of the Department of Forest, Parks and Recreation. I'm the Forest Eutronomy Program Manager at Beyond. So, I'll try to keep this a little bit brief just to be respectful of time to take time for questions as well, but please feel free to interrupt any questions. So, I'm gonna talk just a little bit about Vermont's Forest Economy and the importance of the Work Against Enterprise Fund grants that they give out to Vermont's Forest Products. Vermont's Forest Products Sector is the fiscal leader of Vermont's natural resource economy. It's one of Vermont's big three manufacturing industries and the cornerstone really of Vermont's, one of the cornerstones, responsible economy. Forest products industries include quite a few sectors within them. So you've got forestry, logging, forest trucking, primary solid wood products are the sawmills and veneers. Secondary wood products, wood furniture, and then paper, maybe more construction, kind of the big pieces of that industry. It's a priority for the state, certainly for the department, to support the forest product sector and ensure that the businesses in the sector thrive and continue to contribute economic growth and benefits. Direct economic output of the entire forest economy in Gabon, these are 2023 numbers, was about $1,600,000,000 That's larger than agriculture, which comes in at about $900,000,000 and larger than mining, which are the three pieces of the natural resource sector. It has a lot of challenges in the forest product sector. There's been inconsistent markets, uncertain trade dynamics, some labor challenges. Elizabeth and think you mentioned a lot of our mills and loggers have faced vacancies in their businesses that have really pushed efficiencies and highlighted by the need. There's been contraction in the sector driven by rising production costs, labor pressures, and in particular, our loggers were hit very hard, especially in 2023 with flooding really disrupting the sector. Of the things that I often talk about every time I'm in this building others is that no markets means no management. So without Forest Products Markets, without those businesses, forest management on the ground just is not possible. It's not economically feasible. It doesn't get done. Those two pieces have to exist together in order for them. So there's a couple of pieces in Vermont that we're working on. We've got the Vermont Forest Future Strategic Roadmap that's focused on ensuring a viable, diverse and robust forest economy in Vermont. My department, the program that in FPR, we provide grant funding as well to businesses. We go out for competitive grants for the forest service. We've worked with BETA to provide low interest loans to help loggers, to finance equipment and to apply with AMPs, and then generally just promoting forest management around the state, both on private and state lands. And then of course our partnership and work with the Workplace Enterprise Board initiative to support those businesses. It's a big piece of this. It's a huge compliment. We are so lucky to have them. I, as the utilization forester here in Vermont, I work with my counterparts in what the Forest Service Falls region. That spans from Maine out to Minnesota, down to Missouri, and then across to Maryland. So that kind of set the piece of The US. So I worked with those, my counterparts in all those states and no one else quite has anything like working with enterprise fund. And they're always so amazed and great to love each other's that we are able to provide this support to our businesses. I think those might pass some slides. Yeah, so some of the businesses that were mentioned or haven't been highlighted quite as much yet. Vermont Heavy Timber, it's a timber frame construction. They put in a timber drying and storage facility and they're located in Huntington. I'll also say that they're one of our Forest County Program grantees as well. We provided them funding to support an advanced wood heating system. Then, Mayo's Maple Farm up in Richford. Maple production, this can start to get into a sticky side. We've got agave tourists during the room talking maple. It was an installation of wireless monitoring system to increase production and labor efficiencies. Then Sawyer Made, so they make beautiful wood chairs. To meet their growth needs and support the business, they used these grant funds to support expansion of the facility and added a finishing room for painting, boiling, and storing finished chairs. And then J. K. Adams, so they are in our secondary manufacturing sector, so they have started or creating this closed loop of Vermont made cutting boards and that line of products. They use the grant budget for production tooling equipment to support that vision and also to invest in a marketing campaign. And then I think I'm also up for closing remarks, is that right? Yeah. Close the show. So as you've heard, between Ellen and Elizabeth and Abby and myself, the Working Lands Program is incredibly unique to Vermont. It really speaks to our commitment into our working landscape, something we've not been incredibly proud of. The board's expertise and reflection process, integration of sector experts into the granting process, and the technical assistance investments all allow the program to set priorities, make investments that not only contribute to strengthening working lives businesses, but also advance the viability of Vermont's forest hive, vulture systems.

[Claire Salerno]: I do want to note that

[Catherine Servidio]: direct investment to these businesses is really critical to the business viability and supporting our food systems, forest systems. That's something that's certainly part of the forest future strategic roadmap, farm to plate, then also the England, meeting New England, all of these core partners all agree that That investment business is terrific at vision back in 2012 to create this program that can be adaptive, stay effective, and be relevant, but changing landscape and evolving context to ensure that our working landscape is protected and appropriate as a result of the program. It's really, it's quite amazing. It's wonderful to see the outcomes that it makes with these businesses. So, both of our street as well, I will say, grant opportunities are slim and they're always very thin.

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: Thank you, Mr. Chair. So just point of personal privilege, if I could. Of course. Kind of got a warm spot for FPR, I always have. Thank you. Michael Schneider and Sam Lincoln were two incredible talented folks. Absolutely. Former commissioner and deputy commissioner. And I know Commissioner Futzko is doing a great job as well. But I hope word reaches Michael Schneider that I made him a huge compliment because he was just great.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: He was good guy.

[Catherine Servidio]: Yeah, he was great. And Commissioner Rutland District has been really great as And then of course our new Director of Division of Horace, Oliver Pearson, State Administrator as well. It's been really wonderful to work with them. When I joined FPR, Mike Snyder was our commissioner, but Sam had already gone back to logging Well,

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: you're doing a great job.

[Catherine Servidio]: Are there any questions for me or the audience?

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Just Anything. I hope you folks are asking tomorrow for a little bit of time. We could tear down thirty minutes of that. I would appreciate it. We were out just trying to fit in some more stuff that we got going on so we understand. If you've made commitments to the full two hours, we do honor that, but, we could just, help us out a little bit. Appreciate it. But other than that, very worthy. You guys do a lot of stuff. Great presentation. Appreciate you coming in very much. We'll see you tomorrow. Thank you.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: Wasn't that bad, was it? It was very easy.

[Abby Willard]: I'll be happy to come back anytime. You want to cut forestry?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: We're working on getting that in here. Did

[Elizabeth Sipple]: you say that you wanted to Section

[Abby Willard]: nine, did you call it? Region 9. Region nine. Yeah. Region nine. That's a cap sentence.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: I just want to verify, did you say that it's tomorrow we're thinking about two hours for the hearing, but it would be helpful if it

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: You can get to an hour and a half, it'd be very helpful to us, that's all. I get it if you can't. I get it.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: Just like a point of, I think it would be helpful to know, I'd ask each grantee to provide from like ten minutes really of testimony and then to allow for question and answer and conversation.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Just so

[Elizabeth Sipple]: you know, please. So I think Yeah. It's definitely possible.

[Abby Willard]: So what

[Unidentified Committee Member]: you're saying if we shut up, then.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: Well, I just wanna say that they haven't they didn't they weren't planning on speaking for the full time so I can let them know that it

[Senator Steven Heffernan (Clerk)]: might Well, don't want to,

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: you know, I again, you know, we we make it we make ourselves available to everyone.

[Abby Willard]: I think it's possible. So Yeah.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I'm sure a lot of people are like, ten minutes?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I get to talk for ten minutes. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: Totally. And then you get and then they get here, they're like, oh, yeah. Like, of course, we could talk for ten minutes about our business. Like But

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: we'll see. It's all good. Yep. It's all good. All good. All good.

[Elizabeth Sipple]: Okay. No. But that's great. I just wanted to make sure I understood the desire. Yep.

[Senator Russ Ingalls (Chair)]: Ready? Is we good for a minute? Yeah. Okay, we'll just go offline until 10:30.