Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Speaker 0]: We are back in Weigh the Means. We are talking about a proposed speech from Department of Fish and Wildlife. Mr. Batchel, would you want join us? Thank you.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Thank you so much for having me. I've joined, and I can share my screen if that's easiest for you.

[Speaker 0]: That's lovely. I'll give you a minute. I'm going say something while you plug in all your stuff, you don't have to. Talk about decision points this year. Just want to clarify that Fish and Wildlife does have the authority to set this fee. I think one of the questions we have is, should they have the authority to set this fee? We'll learn more about the fee as well. But there are two questions. Should they have the authority to set the fee? Should we have the fee? And whatever other questions that unpack here. Don't know if you've been here before to see us. I'm Representative Kornheiser.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: I'm from Brattleboro. It's so nice to meet you.

[Speaker 0]: Welcome to twenty twenty six.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: 2026, thanks for all you do for Vermonters. I know if Thanks for all you do for Vermonters. Thanks. Thanks. I appreciate that. I don't think I have. I don't think I have. So I'll I'll introduce myself. Thank you. I I'm Jason Dutchholder. I'm fish and wildlife commissioner. I'm I'm the most recent past DEC commissioner. I was retired for a year, and before that, I was the director of the warden service. Colonel was my title, and before that, I was a blissful field warden, living a wonderful life with no no worries. And I'm a father of three, and I have a wonderful wife who works in Northeast Kingdom as a medical doctor. I'm very proud of her. I'm not sure how she feels about my life. Very, very proud of her up in representative of Page's which is where I grew up. Very, very glad I was able to make my way here in Vermont. So glad you all are here also. But I I don't know everyone. Would I don't know if we have time.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah. But you do

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: it. That'd be wonderful. Yep. Bill Canfield, representative from Fair Haven. Represent Fair Haven, West Haven, Benson.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: Bridget Burkhardt from South Burlington. I represent South Burlington and Williston.

[Mark Higley (Member)]: Al

[Carol Ode (Member)]: Ode from Furlong too. Rebecca Holcombe, Lawrence Staffordshire, Westport.

[Speaker 0]: Teddy Waszazak, Berry City.

[Mark Higley (Member)]: Mark Higley, Orleans, L'Oil, of course, very close to Mr. Page's district with including Port Town.

[James Masland (Member)]: I'm Masland, I share a district with Rebecca. I don't recognize you in your different garb here. Usually see you in the car side room, you know.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Yes. It's great to see you. Nice to see you. Thank you.

[Carolyn Branagan (Member)]: I'm Carolyn Branagan. I live in the town of Georgia up in Franklin County, and I represent Georgia and Fairfax here in the House. And

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: as you know, Commissioner, don't need any information. Carol

[Mark Higley (Member)]: Ode Kimbell from Woodstock.

[James Masland (Member)]: Nice to meet you all,

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: and thanks for having me. Let me just share my screen here and we'll get right into it. Had a bit of a slog in last committee, getting myself into it, but I think we should be good to go here. See that? I'm on the right screen.

[Speaker 0]: We can see your calendar in the background.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Oh, all public.

[Speaker 0]: Sure, but

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I'm not a big kid around this one screen that I'm on.

[Sorsha (Committee Staff)]: Thank you. Where

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: am I?

[Sorsha (Committee Staff)]: Slideshow. It's covered on mine. Oh, it's orange.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: There we go. I can do this.

[Speaker 0]: I'm gonna stop looking at it because it'll help you.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Okay. No, it's fine. I it was far worse. There we go. How's that? Oh, yeah. You're good? Good. Okay. I did send over a version last night, and I've I've done a just a minor tweaks to it. It shouldn't be anything Okay. Yeah. Substantive.

[Sorsha (Committee Staff)]: Last week version.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Okay. I I deleted, like, two things. Yeah. Absolutely. And I I have the hard hard copy here, so when I get to that point, I'll I'll point it out. There was some some mention of lands in our previous in our previous, media outreach, which we've since rescinded, and that was what I took out of this PowerPoint last night. So this is a Vermont conservation license proposal. I I like to, I I feel like I would do a lot better without this. I've I've talked about this at at length with so many folks, so the PowerPoint is a hindrance to me, but I I'm I'm really value it now because I been asked a lot of questions that are on here. And so I'll get through it. But this was an effort that was 30 in the making. And we found ourselves in a year where fallen favorably at a time where we're certainly always in need of funding, especially post COVID life is expensive for everyone. We're at a time of declining revenues because of license sales and other things. Our participation is very strong, but we are at a time where we've made offers of lifetime licenses and permanent licenses where the purchases are not present. We have lots of participation in hunting and fishing and traveling, but we don't have the purchasing that we had had in the 80s and 90s and even in 2020 when we had COVID, we don't want back. But looking for ways to bring non payers into our system. And some context for this, I think I've got about 13 slides. We have a lot of infrastructure. We have 205 fishing access areas, a 102 wildlife management areas, five fish culture stations, camps, and shooting ranges, which expensive to operate. Historically, some of you know, most of you know, all of you know, that that license sales carry the day. And we do look at this as you'll see in subsequent slides that we do look at this as license, another way to sort of to be part of the team as as I like to think. Hopefully, people will think of this. And and not all people hunt and fish or trap, and and so we understand that. But but a lot of people do use our access areas, which were brought to us through excise taxes, through hunting and fishing, trapping license sales, and and through motorboat registration fees. A a paddler or a bird watcher might not have the opportunity to pay into that. And some of this will seem redundant, so I apologize. These areas are user funded. Are historically pay to play, when it comes down to our activities. Fishing access areas are paid for, as I mentioned, motorboat registrations, DJ or Dingell Johnson excise taxes, and some capital funds about an average of $100,000 a year. The public has become more diverse in their outdoor pursuits, and so the pressures increase, when that happens. And, while what our priorities have not shifted, our our our need to look across different user groups has that's increased. So queue paddling and sailing, birdwatching, ice skiing.

[Speaker 0]: You remind us what the Dingle Johnson excise tax is?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Sure. It's a tax on hunting, fishing, trapping, binoculars, backpacks, I think backpacks are included, outdoor activities usually and normally related to, consumptive users. So if you buy a set of high end binoculars, there's a built in excise tax attached to that purchase, and that money goes to the federal government. We get some of that through pass through.

[Speaker 0]: Are guns included in that?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Guns have their own excise tax, which is called the Pittman Robertson Act. I don't know if it's a we we don't tend to call it a tax. I guess it is a tax. It's a it's a it's an excise tax on on ammunition and guns. Am I getting that right? I'm I'm looking at Andrew for some of my cues.

[Andrew (Chief of Operations, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I'm the chief of operations for the department. So, Pivot Robinson is the gun, ammunition, hunting side. And then Dingle Johnson is the aquatic fishing license, fishing equipment, tackle, boat fuel. So they're both excise taxes, they just cover different activities.

[Speaker 0]: And they both come back to you in a similar way?

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: They both come back to us. Yes. I'm just curious if you could explain what you mean by the public has become more diverse in their outdoor recreational activities. Are you saying that more people are using public lands? Are you saying that the shift of activities on the lands has changed or that the mix has changed?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: It's great question. And it may have been a choice of words that I might regret, but I I I think I can explain that. So we have we have many users of our so this this is a fishing access area focus, and where we see a small fishing access, we might see one angler part of that fishing access area, but we might see three paddlers who are not otherwise licensed. So I think that's that's what I mean when I say these these user groups are more diversified. I I think I'm safe to say there there are more paddlers than there once were. I certainly feel that where I live. I don't know if I have the science behind that, but we we certainly see we see more of more of a balance of users at our at our access areas and our lands that were purchased for hunting and fishing and by hunters and anglers. And we're we're happy about that. We we want people to use our access areas.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: So what you're saying is I'm sorry. But this what you're saying is the logic behind this is anyone who uses landing areas, whether they're swimming or fishing, should be paying the same fee.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: That's Swimming the is a touchy subject because it's not an approved use. We get a lot of fishing. Oh, excuse me. A lot of swimming, but it's not it's not not it's not legal. But we do get a lot of it. But, yes, there are there are user groups that, are are not traditional that are used in these areas.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: And ice skating isn't approved use?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Not. I don't know. I didn't put that there.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: It's up on the list.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I saw it. Yeah. I saw it. I just noticed. No. I'm just kidding. But for sure, ice skating would not be approved at our access area. You can skate on any lake you want, but using our access area for that.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: And our bird watch is at the access area?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Yeah. We we do see, take South Bay in in Memphremagog, for instance, one of the most wonderful ecosystems that we manage. Lots of folks launch from there. Currently, launching a a boat or a paddlecraft is is a legal approved use, and whatever you do once you get on the water is up to you. You can you can do whatever you want. And and an approved use is those are among approved uses of sailing, any of those, using a a fishing access area. It's just getting folks to pay. That's the idea.

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: As I understand, there's been an underlying tension between those that with a motorboat that are paying their registration fees and those that are just launching a kayak would not pay the fee. Correct. That's existed for a while as I understand.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: It tends to work itself out, but you're right. There is tension there.

[Speaker 0]: Yes. And I wanna make sure we allow the commissioner to tell his whole story.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: Well, I'm just curious how hunting fees pay into this too. I should disclose that members of my household are paying them, but are they using the fishing access areas too?

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: Sure. Is

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: it that's your is that the intent?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Sure. So the so these licenses and and I I have to ask some help to get into the weeds on how hunting license is actually made for fishing access areas. I'm not sure I can actually relay that, but many hunters access hunting areas, near my house. Wolcott Bond is surrounded by a wildlife management area. Some of the more remote areas you have to paddle to. So hunters, and and duck hunters, obviously, more traditional, muskrat hunters will access the water from a fishing access area. Those were designated, for those activities. So this is the why. So there's tremendous financial burden on the department when it comes to managing its land, and our current funding does not meet the public's demand. Historically, we're able to provide funding for these activities and and as as we shift in our in our ability to to gain financially from purchases, as as I mentioned, we have shifted. We were looking for, again, more more payers. This new license will help maintain the historic user paid public benefits model, and it's pointed out here that we're not looking to to profit from these. We don't expect to make a ton of money, but, we are looking to help fund infrastructure kiosks, paving, gravel, work, anything that would historically be used as maintenance. That's where this money would go.

[Speaker 0]: I'm trying to understand the idea of user pay and public benefit. Usually, we talk about user pay in the context of fees, it's really that a user pays for something narrow enough that they're really almost the only ones who benefit. And then when we look at public benefits issues, we generally look to, say, the general fund or a broader base. And so I'm curious how this fits into that. Frankly, a lot of your shortfall is the fact that fees have not been increased. And so how you got to this particular decision, wound up in this particular moment that we're all living in.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Yeah, and I think I captured your question there. I think the existence these access areas are a public benefit that all of the public has enjoyed for as long as they've been in existence. And I don't believe in and I know that not all the public has been contributing, in the way that hunters, anglers, and trappers have been paying. I don't I don't see this as a as a narrow focus offer. I I see this as a benefit for everyone.

[Speaker 0]: Do you consider removing all of the fees and just having there be public funds for a public benefit?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Not personally. I'm not sure what the team thought of here. But I certainly haven't discussed it. I I have not personally. So here's a a a show of our decline in license sales. And as I as I mentioned, this looks this looks doom and gloom. But if you look at, at at, let's say, 2022 and we're 45, 48,000, we're more than that this year.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: The dollars are These

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: are license licenses sold. The participation rate is much higher. We reported this morning that we're upwards of 70,000 hunters only because there are a certain segment 66 and 15 who don't have to buy these licenses.

[Speaker 0]: What year did we create those exemption those? Sorry. It's okay. Don't know.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Looked at it

[Speaker 0]: years ago. That's what I thought, and there's no It's weird how the graph doesn't seem to

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: I think the lifetime license I think what started in '95. Not sure when government placements became anything.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Okay yeah it's interesting that there's not a reflection there. I'll have to point that out too. Pardon me.

[Speaker 0]: It's totally bizarre actually.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Yeah. I'll get back to you on that one, for sure.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: When was the last time the hunting license fees were adjusted?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I have to get back to you on that one too.

[Speaker 0]: It's before my time.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: Thought we did. It was ten years ago, I think.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I thought we did an adjustment a couple of years ago, didn't we?

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: It was a small adjustment. We learned about an LCAR committee about five years ago.

[Speaker 0]: We're going to get back to us on that?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Yes, I will, happy to.

[Speaker 0]: Do you have an answer to the question?

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: Can do a more wholesome response.

[Carolyn Branagan (Member)]: Okay, great. Thanks.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: The lifetime license was $50 at 65 years old, but we changed it to sixty

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: sixty five or something.

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: To 66 years old.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: Yes. That's right. Something. Yeah.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: And it wasn't that long. Yeah. Remember it. It was during commissioner Porter's time, but it is sixty six months. So as I mentioned, we consider this another department license, required for the sufficient access areas for those who don't possess the current hunting, fishing, or traffic license for a registered motorboat. This will be for folks who are over 18 years of age, 18 years of age and older and obtained through an annual purchase. This is this is something that's been in my head a lot how this is actually going to be on the ground. And we're looking to QR codes and kiosks initially and and sort of through passive enforcement in the first couple of years. The cost would be similar to a hunting or fishing or traveling license. I I think, personally, I'd rather sell someone a a fishing license to to get them, active, but if we understand that that not all people are engaged that way, and so looking at that and I've I've said another arena is 18 to $20 is is roughly what we'd be looking at.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: How does it work? Because you mentioned ice skating. So a lot of schools in rural areas, they have outdoor programs in the afternoons to make sure kids are getting out. Is the thought that the school would go online and buy $20 a year passes for every kid who goes ice skating once a week. Is that how you're thinking of it working?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: So I haven't thought of those those particular nuanced approaches yet. Say let's let's say my my daughter's actually doing a a skating day right now as we speak, at at the Elmore School. And so, I've been approached by several user groups, including Chief Don Stevens from the Abenaki and from, veterans organizations, other groups that are looking to be part of this. But, a school would would certainly be a carve out. Those kids are all 18. This activity not normally in approved use, ice skating, so might encourage them to go another place. I apologize for putting ice skating on me. It's not my intent, and I should have caught it.

[Mark Higley (Member)]: So, I

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: mean, if somebody recognizes the underlying tension, because I've had that myself, is there a way right now for them to obtain a permit? Has anybody approached the department to say, how can I use this? I don't have a motorboat. I'm not going to buy a license. Is there any underlying demand that you can point to?

[Speaker 0]: People asking to pay a fee?

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, to get a pass.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Well, I'm not sure I understand the question. So let's say someone wants to go down and paint at an access area. Is that what you're asking?

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: No, I'm asking, okay, I've got two kayaks. The access area isn't a perfect place for me to go to, but I know the rule is I can't go there unless I've got a motorboat.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: No, the rule currently is you can use that with your kayaks. Simply a prioritized system, and I can't give you the order of priority, but kayaks are among a prioritized use, so you can go do that now for absolutely no charge. So the guy shows up

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: at the trailer and he's really pissed that you're blocking the entrance

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: to the kayak. So why couldn't you have a sticker for a kayak or a canoe, paddling boat, rather than each individual? I mean, did you have to have a particular car, I guess? So what point of detail? Sure, So wonderful question, and and it's it's relevant here. We have been cautioned against stickers because they are an annual, effort that's required by the department, required by wardens, required by folks to to do sorta like the sticker on your license plate that I don't think we have to do anymore. We have we have researched, 14 states, I believe, and and taken some of their, goods and bads from their experiences, and they've steered us away from stickers. I feel like coming coming from from the warden service, having the ability to look at someone's license on a on a device, which which, you know, like it or otherwise, we all have, and we all use. Having that QR code sell you a license on the spot, have it visible for awarding is how we look at this being the easiest way to offer this license. Or would it be on your phishing license or your fountain license? Good question. I think this would be separate. The way we're talking about this right now, this would be separate. If you because if you have a phishing or hunting license, you're exempt. Right? So if you don't have one, this would just simply be a a department emblem, and and next to it, it says, you know, phishing access pass. We haven't come up with a name, representative page license, maybe. Page. Right. Page pass.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah. Page. Represent. Exactly. Yeah.

[Mark Higley (Member)]: How would you treat out of state users?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Similarly, we sell nonresident hunting, fishing, trapping licenses. We reciprocate with motorboat users from any state, any province. And so, selling someone a a pass here, we what we haven't gotten into is a nonresident price if they're if they're they're going to be more than than a resident price. I don't know. Assume they are. Everything else is. But that's how we would handle that.

[Mark Higley (Member)]: I guess how would they know about it? Let's say somebody comes up from South Carolina. Like, a dog kayaking on Sure. How do they how do they know about that?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: There is going to be signage at our access areas on our we have kiosks at at all of them right now, to my knowledge, and I'll they will they will now say this is a this is a fee area. Similar to how you would see an access area at, say, Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks or, or a US Fish and Wildlife designated land. They are fee areas, and that's how we will designate this. The QR code will be there. And, don't wanna be heavy handed with this in the first couple of years. You may know we whenever we roll out a new law, we try to be passively enforcing this and educate for the first couple of years and then roll to actual enforce.

[Speaker 0]: Given how fragile our tourism industry is right now with the relationship with Canada, I'm curious how you think this might I guess I'm concerned that this is gonna make Vermont feel even more uninviting, just like rolling up with my paddleboard to a access area and just like

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Yeah. I I think about this lot too. I was born in Canada. I I have a a lot of love for for cross border travel. And I as as the sort of the manager slash appointing authority slash person who has the authority to set this rule, it'll be front and center in my mind. The wardens know how I feel about about heavy enforcement. The last eight years of my of my career as director, we we were very present during a lot of hard times surrounding, traditional enforcement of of all laws in this country. I I feel very strongly about, the rule of law, but I also feel very strongly about being neighborly while you do it.

[Speaker 0]: Discretionary enforcement of a fee seems like a really good recipe for a lot of bias.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Well, if it helps. The fee is the fee is one thing, and enforcement is a separate thing. So all of our fees go into from from enforcement. Let's say you're fishing without a license and a warden catches you. All of that money goes into the general fund. We get zero dollars. Well, this will be a fine too if you get caught. Right? The fee initially, if you bought but if you buy a fishing license, that goes to us. If you don't, that goes to the general fund. So it's it's very similar, very similar.

[Speaker 0]: The levying of the fee, it sounds like, will be essentially discretionary if you're not really enforcing it. And so only the people who are very attentive to signs or aren't pissed off at the state for levying a fee are gonna pay it. Some of them are gonna get caught and might get a fine and might not, which will probably further alienate them from their relationship to the state and the natural world.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: All those things are possible.

[Sorsha (Committee Staff)]: Okay.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: The discretionary enforcement piece is something that we offer whenever we roll out a new law. So first couple years, it's all education. We would we would much rather you buy that license than write you a ticket. And and the wardens know that, and and I I hope that that that comes through, when I'm speaking to them. We we certainly don't wanna be blackmailing anyone into buying this fee. Right? That is that is not the intent. But over time, if you use the habitat stamp as an example, we have, enormous buy in from that habitat stamp, and folks want to pay into the system because they understand it. Part of this process here is helping folks understand why we need it.

[Speaker 0]: The habitat stamp isn't required. As a Go ahead, representative. Ahead.

[Sorsha (Committee Staff)]: Also just Is the juice worth the squeeze on this one? If we're talking about a 20 It seems like there's been a downward trend, clearly a downward trend, in license sales over the past fifty years. And just tying back to Representative Kornheiser's point about the general fund. It's the reduced revenue from license sales that we're trying to correct here, it just seem like the math is going to map to actually get where we want to be, and that would be a place where the general fund could step in. And so I'm just curious as to do you have projections for how much revenue this would bring in or anything like that?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: We do. They've been been was I jolted recently because this was initially a a lands and access area effort. So we've had to we've had to pair that down. But but we do. We we were in the 250,000 a year range projecting out about three to five years of of this being on the ground. So I I don't know how that would land without lands at this point. But I completely understand what you're saying. There has been, some sentiment that is very contrary to this effort, but there's been a lot of sentiment that is very supportive of this effort from not only hook and bullet folks who have been paying, but from folks like Audubon Society and others who use our lands because some of them are are world class birding opportunities, and and there's no no sort of licensing of that right now. Not that people are out looking for licenses to pay, but it is I think there's

[Speaker 0]: a badges on a Boy Scout uniform.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: And part of a group, right?

[Speaker 0]: I guess I'm concerned the world is very hard right now for a lot of people and very expensive. Over Christmas break, I finally heard about touch grass as a thing that the kids say. And I'm It just seems like what we're doing or what you're trying to do would make it even harder for Vermonters to access this absolutely incredible resource we have. I know we already have a huge amount of class discrepancy in who accesses our lands, which seems really sad. Like, I want to do everything we can to change that, and this just seems like it's going in the opposite direction. I don't know. Yep. Representative Higley.

[Mark Higley (Member)]: Know, Vermont is a very aging population, and you're making me feel guilty for taking advantage of the free license, over 66. I won't tell you how many years I've done it. But I'm just wondering, you know, I would certainly, if there was a, when I go get my new license, I have to get the license, there was a spot on there, would you like to contribute? I mean, I know there is for stamps and that sort of stuff, but is there any consideration ever for that? Just trying to look at another way possibly to bring in some more.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Sure. The habitat stamp offers that, but you have to be in the realm of wanting to buy one of our licenses to get to the habitat stamp. You don't have to, but that's what makes it easy. Every year, I buy my hunting license and my fishing license and up pops the habitat stamp, and I click on it and I pay the 15 or whatever, $25, in in addition. Hunters and anglers and trappers do that with monotonous regularity. They fund that whole habitat stamp. There are on occasion a big donation, is on occasion a big donation that pops up. We don't know, sometimes we do because of the point of sale system, but sometimes it comes in anonymously. I want to buy a habitat stamp for $3,000 And those are wonderful. Part of the beauty, I think, of this in the long term, I completely, Madam Chair, I completely understand what you're saying. I cannot stomach the amount we pay for everything that we pay for. It's it's it's very, very troubling. I don't know how people do it that don't have too good incomes. But I feel over time, normalizing this and getting this in front of people will lead to not only this user model being looked at as favorable because we do have a lot of users who who don't pay anything. And I and I I use state parks and I use well, state parks aren't a good example, but I do hike on state land. I I don't pay for that. But I when I wanna go to a state park, I the last time I went this year, was $19 for my family to go to to go to Green River Reservoir and to go paddle for a day. It it's not out of the realm of of normality in Vermont. And and say five years from now, we have these folks who are who are paying their $18 a year and that happens to have a stamp pops up in front of them, it will lead to more money. I I I feel as though there are I I wish you could give example of states who have who have done well by this, but I I use Montana. I know Virginia has done well. There are there are 14 states in existence where where this is, this has been normalized over time. And there are some who who had terrible experiences with it. But I but I think, timing aside, I think I think, is the juice worth a squeeze? Think that'll be tested. I feel like it will.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: Yeah, Roxanne, I agree. Another

[Mark Higley (Member)]: question I have is, the money that is currently brought to the state from logging on state land, where does that money go? Does any of it go to you folks?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Some of it does. That comes to us through special funds, and I don't exactly know how much it is or the percentage of it. I do know it's not a lot of money.

[Speaker 0]: I do believe someone doesn't know. I

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: think it's about $80,000 a year.

[Mark Higley (Member)]: Again, I mean to go on a broader perspective in this regard, remember wanting to tie up all our land, whether it's a wild lands bill, whether it's thirtythirty by 50 fivefifty, whether it's tier three, all that sort of stuff. I mean, dollars 80,000, okay, 80,000, but if you aren't gonna be allowed to log on State Lane anymore, that's $80,000 So, I just think we look at things in a way that isn't very open minded.

[Speaker 0]: I'm sorry to ask you this question, but I have to. How does this fit into the governor's commitment to no new taxes and no new fees?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Don't be sorry.

[Speaker 0]: I mean, I'm not

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Thank you. Sure. I completely get it. Completely get it. It goes back for me to to a group of of individuals. Let's say we're all users of these phishing access areas, but only three of us have been paying for one hundred years. That's how I'm answering that question. It comes down to a fairness issue. Having the opportunity for more payers, don't think is the inverse of a fee or a tax. I think it's an opportunity for more people to be involved with the ongoing management of these lands.

[Speaker 0]: You could say that about almost any new tax.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Sure. Thank

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: you. When this proposal first came out, it also included access to trails or trail access areas, I believe. Is that correct?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Wildlife management areas. Any department owned lands.

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: Yes. And is that now off the table?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: It's it's not not now, but not never. So not right now.

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: K. So I mean, from my constituents who send me emails around the same issues, I got a whole bunch of contacts from constituents I never hear from that said, are you kidding me? I am going to have to pay $20 to go outside? So that was the reaction. So I I covered that feedback. I'm sure you've heard of that already.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Oh, have. And and, thank you for peeling those. I appreciate it very much. The the lands were were being looked at as as sort of nondifferentiated, between, B TRANS lands, DEC lands, forest and parks lands, fish and wildlife lands. I and I completely understand that that had I not been in state government, I would not know that different state agencies and different departments own different things. This was only to be for fish and wildlife lands. When it hit, we realized that was a gap, and that was on me. I I should have seen that folks weren't gonna differentiate. We should have done a better job of differentiating that this is wildlife management areas only, fish and wildlife department lands only. So we pulled it back.

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: And by the same lack of differentiation, they don't differentiate whether it's you or me. Right? Making that That's not true. That's my failure. Yeah. What are you doing to me?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I take

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: a lot

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: of solace in that. Yeah.

[Carolyn Branagan (Member)]: I don't think that's what he has said, Daniel.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Know. I really that's all I take. Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: Representative Waszazak? Oh, sorry. Representative Branagan. Yeah. I'm sorry. Missed your hand. So

[Carolyn Branagan (Member)]: I'm trying to understand your response to the chair's question regarding how this fits in the governor's plan. Did the governor send you? Did he approve of the request? Where does he stand

[Speaker 0]: on this?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Sure. He he approves of this. So we have, we have been pushing this for thirty for thirty, maybe more than thirty years, and the governor has said no, to to no, license increases and no, no fees, no taxes as as he has he has said, you know he says. But, this this appeal, to the governor because of the disparities in user in user groups and the and the fairness issue. And I I don't know if fairness is the is the way that lands favorably would evolve, but I I feel as though a person who who who pays, you know, thousands of dollars every year to hunt and fish. And knowing that I have paid into these lands year after year, I I I I'm not opposed to anybody using these lands, but I but I do look at at the fairness issue as being real. And I and I feel, without putting words in the governor's mouth, he he is supporting this, but I do feel that the the fairness issue resided with him.

[Carolyn Branagan (Member)]: Somewhere in your presentation, I read that there's a $100,000, appropriation to you from Ellis Enemies Committee. Any chance of increasing that? You said you need how much? 250,000?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I don't feel as though we have fallen on a number of need. That is what we expected to make we had the full package of wildlife management areas and fishing access areas lumped together for feed use. Need, I don't have the number for you, what we need.

[Carolyn Branagan (Member)]: Okay. Well, it seems to me that this is a really sad example of what happens when you let obligations fall apart, when we don't keep up with accurate fees enough to support your department. And you're not the only one across the state that dozens of other agencies and departments are falling apart or having to look in other places for revenue just to keep themselves going to support the needs of Vermonters. And I agree with every comment that's been made around the table about children, people, elderly

[Mark Higley (Member)]: people.

[Carolyn Branagan (Member)]: You know, even skating, I don't see what's wrong with skating on a pond. But this is falling apart because we're not keeping up with a funding plan that was made years ago to support this department through fees. So if we're not going to do fees, let's look at an appropriation. If you want one of us to go down there, I would volunteer to my chair whether she wants me to do that or not, I don't know yet. I don't think the fee is a good idea, because it's so uneven now. You've got a certain bunch of people who haven't had a fee increase in nearly ten years. And another group now, because they're brand new users of the facility, if you want to call it that, they're going to have a fee. I just don't see it. But I don't want you to think that I don't respect your work.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Well, I don't take that. Don't I don't take that from any of you. I feel very welcome here, and I feel like you all respected the work so much. I thank you for mentioning that. I don't feel at all. Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: Thanks. I wanna follow-up. I appreciate that so much, Carolyn. I and you're welcome to go talk to those reparations. I wanna follow-up on representative Higley's, some of his comments about consistency in government to some degree. I really appreciate that Vermont has this right to roam, and I think we're one of the only states that has that. And I just think that's beautiful. It's like the people's house. It's like one of those core tenets of Vermont that makes my little Vermont heart glow. And I'm curious, this seems to go at odds with that. I'm wondering your thoughts about that.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I'm with you on Write for Rome. It's a thing of beauty. And I I feel, I've only recently become aware of how guarded, The US Fish And Wildlife Service is of of their, lands and lands that they have helped acquire. And I think it's some of it goes back to protection of of the funds that they've given us over time. If they if they find out that we've allowed someone to do anything on those access areas, that is not aligned with with the traditional uses, including boating, including paddling, we stand we have we have the answer for that. And I feel as though, the wardens have to their own detriment over time, I've had to have carried that spear around with them. And and poke the ice skaters and the swimmers. Metaphorically. Metaphorically. Yes. I use that sharps beer analogy way too much. But I but I think,

[Speaker 0]: just matching the children on the ice skates. Know.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: It's like, like, water in my head and I poke her. But I think it goes down to that. I think I will because it's law, because it's what we defend, obviously stick up for it. Those uses are guarded because of the funding models that surround them. And this aligns with that funding model, but it helps us also. But I understand completely.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you. Anyone else? Yeah, Representative Mason.

[James Masland (Member)]: Yeah, just a brief anecdote that you might appreciate. When I first moved onto my hill forty five, six years ago, there was a change of game wardens, old and new, And the older game warden brought the the newer one to a family down the hill. Been there forever. And he said, I wanna introduce you to this is the only family I know where they put a salt lick salt lick between every other room in the garden. I don't know how complete that is true, but the gate mordant did come around and introduce him to the family and something to that effect. So this is, I guess you could say, an old family tradition from a family that had been there since the town started, you know, that kind of stuff. Sure.

[Speaker 0]: Really interested in letting you finish your slides.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: That's okay. I I I I'm gonna flick through them. I appreciate that. I I I think I was the warden in your hair for way too short amount of time.

[James Masland (Member)]: That's right. Nice to see you again. You too. Over again.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: That means we can still go out on our tongs.

[Speaker 0]: I'm sorry.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I'm trying to think of how you would yeah. There's also

[Speaker 0]: It's the pay to play thing. Sure.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: Access is Yeah.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: But I I think some of this argument is that it's it's been in existence for so long. Right? It's been in existence for forever. And from from I know my perspective is skewed, and and forgive me for that. And and being in in the enforcement realm, it's even more skewed. Seeing a person with a a fishing rod in their in their kayak, in their in their life jacket. You know, you check their license, they're on their way. I get it now that it's gonna be a different conversation. I completely understand that. But it but it hasn't been out of the realm of of what I consider reasonable to ask to ask other users to pay for a long time. And knowing, you know, the the type of organization that we are that that we would not be frivolous with the fees and anyway, I'm kinda going in the right direction. This is okay. This is worth mentioning, that this will not replace the habitat stand for compete with a non game fund, And, but this is designed to offset declining revenues. I have mentioned that. Looking at implementation in 2027, if the if the change is approved in 2026. And obviously, intensive outreach, is required. And then, I believe we've been through all of this. Just some some additional areas where this, would not be required. So camps and fish stations where the public is welcome, stream bank management areas, which is 1,500 acres of land that we own along in Vermont. And you do still require a license to be at our two shooting ranges. The commissioner of the day has authority, to set these fees through statute, and they go into the mileage funds to be used for these efforts that we've mentioned. And we are aiming to have this available through our existing point of sale where we sell our other licenses. And that's the last slide. I would love to stay. I do need to call the school if I'm going to

[Speaker 0]: No. No. I think I can give her

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: But I'm happy to stay.

[Speaker 0]: Agenda time. And I don't want your daughter to get too cold after ice skating, waiting for you. I

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: think we are going to get the left, after your last picture slide, it shows declining licensed buyers, declining revenue.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Yes, the hard copy.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: 2016.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I don't have it on here any longer, but you do have two hard copy slides that show the declining numbers, and those were from the slides when I had land rolled into this.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: I just wondered about beyond 2016. This

[Sorsha (Committee Staff)]: is Sure. Yeah.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I I would have to come back to talk about that. I'm so sorry.

[Speaker 0]: If we can spend some more time with some analysis from JFO, because, yeah, those numbers are quite old.

[Sorsha (Committee Staff)]: So some numbers would be helpful. Okay.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: But I I owe you why the the permanence and lifetime licenses are not reflected in that downward slope. And I owe you when we're our our when it's our last license increase for hunting licenses, and all include fishing and tracking also.

[Speaker 0]: And then I guess the last question that you can owe us or say now is you have this authority to set this fee on your own. And I'm just curious of your thoughts on You're one of the only areas of state government that can do that.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: We still will have to go through ICAR, to our knowledge. And so it's not entirely an autonomous effort. And and I and I won't be deaf to the to the buy in. I love these conversations, and I'll continue to and, you know, anytime you want me to come in, I would love to love to be part of this and and lunch too. If ever anyone ever wants to chat offline, I'm always available. Yeah, I wonder because I, I do have this inherent trust in our department because I've been part of it for so long. And I've seen how, how wonderful staff are and how dedicated they are to to any bit of funding that we receive. And again, I'm serious because we have 150 lifestyle employees. They live and breathe this every minute of the day.

[Speaker 0]: And I think other agencies that need to come to us to set their fees also have incredible staff and are Oh, their money.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Of course. Yeah. Yeah, of course.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: One last question. And first of same gratitude. Really appreciate your team and the work they do. And I think it's a huge piece of why Vermont is such a wonderful place to live. But we're all concerned about declining revenues or deteriorating fiscal conditions. And we just heard from the AOT that they're budgeting health care increases at 3%. What are you budgeting your health care crisis for for the

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: next year? Do you know that? I would have to get back

[Sorsha (Committee Staff)]: to you

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: on that. Hope it does now.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Yes. That would be very helpful. Absolutely get that for you.

[Carolyn Branagan (Member)]: Thank you so much for coming in.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: It was truly my pleasure. I loved coming back.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: Thank you.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I appreciate it. You too, you too, all of you. Thank you very much. Take care.

[Mark Higley (Member)]: Take care.

[Speaker 0]: Folks, the last thing we have on the agenda for today is to talk about reports. Sorsha, I think, is going to share her screen. In order to complete this task Thank you again. The highlights don't mean anything.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: Fully musatory hearing. That's what you would

[Speaker 0]: I know. But we'll work through that. Close my head, that's

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: In

[Speaker 0]: order for us to move through this in a timely way, we are not going to discuss the content of the reports now. We're not going to discuss the law that led to the reports. We're really just answering the question, like, who wants to read the report and report back to the committee for now. You can absolutely, many of these reports were sent out in advance before the session even started. You can absolutely sign up for reports you already read. And I think most of them will, and as we go, I'll try to say the ones that I'm already planning or I'm already planning the to have real committee time with. Okay. Does that sound like a good frame?

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: Some of these aren't out yet.

[Speaker 0]: Some of them aren't out yet, so you're signing up for the future. Yes.

[Mark Higley (Member)]: Are you looking for volunteers for them?

[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I'm going go line by line and look for volunteers now.

[Mark Higley (Member)]: Okay. So

[Speaker 0]: the first one, the fiscal year twenty twenty six fee report, I think it's great for folks to read it. I was not planning on spending a lot of money time on it because, frankly, I don't think we are going to raise fees this year.

[Carolyn Branagan (Member)]: -You still want someone to vote.

[Speaker 0]: -And I think it would be great if someone read it and reported back. Maybe two people even. Okay. Representative Branagan? And then does someone else want to join Representative Branagan? Thank you.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: This includes the individual state reports that have been coming in.

[Mark Higley (Member)]: -Okay.

[Speaker 0]: And Ted tracks them all and does all kinds of great stuff with them. So, like, he spends an enormous He's not here anymore. He spends an enormous amount of time making sure that he's working with the departments, that the fee reports come in as described in statute. And so it's a good thing to work with him on that. Bees relating to cannabis.

[Sorsha (Committee Staff)]: Mark. Great. Anyone else? Well, go cheer people That's all the right.

[Speaker 0]: Anyone else? I will read that one with you, Mark.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: You want somebody with you?

[Speaker 0]: He does. Okay. Thanks. Mark and Bill. Data sales. There is going to be a bill coming from Commerce likely that's focused on these fees, which is why it's extra relevant right now.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: I love it. Thank you.

[Mark Higley (Member)]: I think after you.

[Speaker 0]: Wonderful. Bridget and Rebecca. So that one, we won't take up. The cannabis one, we're not going to take up until a cannabis bill comes from DevOps. There usually is there's one every year. And the data one, we wouldn't pick up until the data bill comes over from commerce. Next up, school aid sorry, school construction. Those two, the annual report and the recommendations for transfer, sort of a package dealio. Great. Okay. Thank you. I imagine Charlie, you should be focused on the great. Okay.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: So we have

[Speaker 0]: Charlie, Rebecca, Bridget. And that, we're already scheduling testimony for, I think. Next patients, yes.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Okay.

[Speaker 0]: Special education, those two are package deal. Does someone want to join Rebecca on that? Thanks, Rebecca and Bridget. And that is not scheduled yet, but will be scheduled. Transportation reimbursement guidelines, we're probably not going to take that up until the other committees do a lot of work.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: It's not out yet.

[Speaker 0]: That one not out yet?

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: Maybe it is.

[Speaker 0]: I think that one is out, actually, and it's just tiny. Okay. Oh, I think. Okay. Thank you.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: So It's for them.

[Mark Higley (Member)]: You're

[Speaker 0]: Woody's going to do that one?

[Carolyn Branagan (Member)]: I think I did three dashes.

[Speaker 0]: I'll have a video. And Carol? We will. That one, you might need to remember for a while. We're likely not going to pick it up until later in the session. Inflationary measures, I know Rebecca's super excited about that. Is anyone else excited about inflation measures? Great, Bridget. Thank you. I'm also really excited about inflation measures. That one's not out yet. Pre K, also not out yet, and we're working on it more this week. That's actually something that everyone should read when it comes out. Please. Thank you. And just because you didn't sign up you're signing up to report out, you're not necessarily signing up to be the only one who reads it. Everyone should try to read all of them, because very nice people worked hard to write them. And there was a reason we requested them. Property tax classification implementation report? I already yes. Representative Higley and Representative Waszazak. Thank you. And Kimbell? Fine. And Kimbell. Great. We're going to keep on working on that. Everyone already knows that. Regional assessment district annual progress report and stakeholder working group. That's a package deal. Represent Waszazak. Mark, you don't want that one?

[Sorsha (Committee Staff)]: Which one are we gonna say? Regional assessment

[Speaker 0]: The stakeholder working group. You love that part of the What's

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: your face? I'm the last one.

[Speaker 0]: No. I was gonna do that one too with Teddy. Great. Thanks. That's gonna be scheduled testimony in the next couple weeks. State ROFIs for broadband telephone companies. That is thank you. Jim is gonna do that one. If one other person can do that one, maybe Charlie?

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: Sure. Yeah.

[Speaker 0]: So that bill that we learned about this morning from that law we learned about this morning from Maria was that this afternoon? Yep. This afternoon from Maria. When we were working on that law, we discovered that there's been a fee in statute that has not been collected for thirty years. And that report was about, Why are you not collecting this fee that's in statute? Maybe there's a good reason, in which case we should remove the fee. But we can't just leave laws that are never followed on the books.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I

[Speaker 0]: mean, I know we do it all the time, but it would be nice not to. Okay. Great. So we'll schedule testimony for that. Whoever reads that report, the Transportation Committee actually took testimony on the report last week, if you want to watch that for cliff notes.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Yes.

[Sorsha (Committee Staff)]: On the stakeholder working group for the regional it says 2026. Do we know when

[Mark Higley (Member)]: to expect that?

[Speaker 0]: I feel like any minute. Gotcha. Yeah.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Would just talk to that. Alright. You just

[Sorsha (Committee Staff)]: Alright. We get it. Onwards.

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: Hours of vacation, but I don't

[Speaker 0]: It's pretty soon.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I know. I will work.

[Speaker 0]: Push up. Is that it? No. It's on another page. Did you do

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: the house and the conservation? No.

[Carolyn Branagan (Member)]: Oh, there's more one.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah. I don't know what that one is.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: Okay. Almost Let's skip that.

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: I'll jump on it. I love that thing.

[Speaker 0]: Everyone's so excited about the PBR report. We're all gonna read it.

[Carolyn Branagan (Member)]: It's gonna

[Speaker 0]: be late. I've already gotten the word.

[Carolyn Branagan (Member)]: Just FYI,

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: it's not gonna be out tomorrow.

[Speaker 0]: Is tomorrow the fifteenth?

[Carolyn Branagan (Member)]: Jill reached out

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: to Is

[Speaker 0]: she gonna give us printed copies this year?

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: Yes. Is. Yes.

[Speaker 0]: Do you know what the color is this year? Okay. And it includes all the information. I'm, like, channeling Scott Beck in weird ways right now. Okay. Value of incentives granted and report on extent to which tax credits have supported economic activity. That is not out until next year. I think that's a summer think that's a 20 I think, yeah.

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: SPEAKER Veggie?

[Mark Higley (Member)]: SPEAKER

[Speaker 0]: Veggie. We're going to there's a report. Someone should read the report. And I think that's something else that we're not going to look at until Commerce sends us something. So be ready for that to arrive. Who wants to do that?

[Jason Batchelder (Commissioner, Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I love that. Archie.

[Speaker 0]: Oh, the report? You love the report?

[Sorsha (Committee Staff)]: Yes. Bridget Dodge.

[Speaker 0]: Okay. And the Higher Education Endowment Trust Fund, I'm also going to do that one. Anyone else? Okay. Oh,

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: course. So I'm already on that meeting.

[Speaker 0]: Great. Okay. Bridget and Carol, for anyone who is not following that, that's where the what's it called when people die? The tax. The estate tax. Thank you. That is where the estate tax goes, which is likely going to be an increasing source of revenue for the next few years.

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: We don't have an annual TIF report on here.

[Speaker 0]: We don't have the annual TIF report on here. Would you like to add it and read it and tell us about it?

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: Yes.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: Thank you.

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: And I'm sure Carolyn will read it as well.

[Carolyn Branagan (Member)]: Yes. I will definitely read In fact, I didn't think it was going to come out until Friday with your committee meeting in the afternoon, the TIF report.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: It comes

[Charles Kimbell (Ranking Member)]: out, like, in April.

[Bridget Burkhardt (Clerk)]: I will have that. Okay. Can

[Speaker 0]: you add Carolyn and Charlie to a TIF report and find the TIF report? Thank you. That's good. And if you all want to be the ones who are focusing the most on the chip, that would also be cool. Okay. Thanks. That was so productive. You all are great. Thank you.