Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Emilie Kornheiser (Chair)]: Morning. Morning. Good I mean, it's a Friday, first week. It's January 9. I know what day of the week it is. I know what date it is. Things are improving as we go along. So as is our Friday morning tradition, we are hearing one of the bills that's been referred to us, H-five 84, from Representative Casey. And then if folks could come back fairly promptly after the floor. When we built the agenda, we did not anticipate that there would be two bills on the floor. So it's a little tight in the after the floor to lunch zone. And we're going to hear from Emilie Kornheiser and Teddy Burnett about prekindergarten. And then we actually have a joint hearing with Transportation Committee about the rescissions that happened this fall and the transportation funds help. And then after lunch, we have another joint hearing with two other committees that will be super fun about CHIP, and that is also down in Room 11. And if you want a good seat, I recommend you get there early, because I really have no idea how the rooms could be arranged for themselves. But I'm sure Sorcha will somehow do something magical.

[Unidentified committee member (female)]: I'm not leaving

[Emilie Kornheiser (Chair)]: town. Someone will do something magical. And if it's not magical, it's not on Sorcha. So with that, representative Casey, would you like to join us? Thank you so much for introducing this bill.

[Rep. Woodman Page]: All right.

[Rep. Conor Casey]: Thank you very much, Madam Chair, Committee. It's a pure pleasure to be here today. Until you sit in the committee, forget who's on it here. That's an all star team, can tell.

[Emilie Kornheiser (Chair)]: The people who are not here yet.

[Rep. Conor Casey]: Oh, they're great. He's my mentee, nice and key. He's been very wise in the last year and a half or so. So thanks very much for having me today. Representative Connor Casey, welcome to my district, Montpelier. I'm here to introduce H584, which you probably know very well from the title of it, would amend Vermont's income tax code so that pension income and survivor benefits received by public safety professionals are excluded from taxable income. So who does this benefit, you know, when you say sort of first responders, public safety? That's generally defined as retired police officers, firefighters, emergency management technicians, and their survivors would receive a pension or a survivor benefit income there. That they would be 01/01/2026 retroactive applying the tax years beginning on or after that date. So why are we doing this, right? I can tell you, you know, it was tough after last session, I think. You know, we extended this for military personnel, and you know, I think we knew how this movie started and how the next scene was going to be, right? The next scene is me coming through that door. Because when the firefighters and folks like that approach me and ask, why was this done for one group of people but not for another? I don't have the ability to tell Chris Doopbe there why they should not be granted this benefit. I served on City Council for years, month earlier, and I really developed an appreciation for the job these folks do. You know, being overnight in a firehouse, doing ride alongs with some of the cops. We've been struggling with recruitment and retention, and that's because it's a really hard gig, you know? I've been a union representative for public safety and firefighters, and when you take that job, you're not gonna live as long. You're not gonna have a home life with your family. You're gonna be sitting by the bed, and you're gonna get a beep on your beeper or or cell phone, and you gotta be somewhere where you're in a very dangerous situation ASAP. It's, if you look at the medical toll this takes on some of the folks who do this job, the presumptive disabilities with some of the cancers the firefighters take on here, it's a really tough gig. And just like our military personnel are heroes for the work they do, we have heroes every day in our backyards in Vermont with some of these public safety personnel there. So Vermont, like many states, is experiencing a really severe recruitment and retention challenge in some of these jobs, and we need to incentivize it for our own public safety, but really to take care of these folks, you know, and make sure that when they retire and they're not able to work as long as the other thing, that they're taken care of and their spouses who have gone through this as well. So, I've looked at other states, obviously some states don't tax pensions at all, Some states are more selective. But collectively we did, we set this precedent last year and it's a difficult decision, right? Because what's the financial toll on our budget? And who's the next group who's gonna come through that door? But it's a conversation we need to have. And I really do believe public safety personnel's a good place to start. And again, collectively as a chamber, we have to decide, as we do often enough, with public employee pensions, which we categorize differently with group C, obviously with law enforcement, these are tough decisions we need to make. So, you know, I'm a simple corrections man. I don't have an advocacy in front of me. I'm not coming in with the numbers that would need to be researched and you guys are very good at that. But I wanted to start this conversation and I think it's a really important conversation to have. I think it's a limited group this way to impact, you know, I was just talking to Chris and was it 15 locals across the state there? It's 13. 13, yeah. So yeah, maybe sixty, seventy people at the moment there for firefighters, obviously more police, EMTs there. So I was hoping just to begin this conversation, you know, I could bring Chris, I'm sure his folks would love to come in as well as other groups representing these employees, but I think it's a good conversation to have. And honestly, want to be consistent, right? Again, we voted for this. So I think it's a conversation we need to have. So I really appreciate the time. Happy to answer any questions.

[Emilie Kornheiser (Chair)]: Yeah, Representative Page.

[Rep. Woodman Page]: I don't disagree with what you have to say. I've got two things. One, military lifestyle I think is a lot different than law enforcement or firefighting. It's just different, okay? The other issue I wanted to mention is in your bill you bring up amount of federal deduction or credit taxpayer would have been allowed for cultivation, testing, processing, or sale of cannabis. Why did you have that included in this particular?

[Rep. Conor Casey]: Yeah, that's a good question. Honestly, I'm introducing the concept there. I should have gotten in the weeds a little more with this bill, yeah, not really prepared to speak to that representative. My apologies, sir.

[Rep. Woodman Page]: Okay. Those are the only two things I have to say. Yeah, yeah.

[Unidentified committee member (male, likely Charles Kimbell)]: Yeah, Representative Benning, so we don't have a fiscal note on this.

[Emilie Kornheiser (Chair)]: Think it says bill that we've just,

[Unidentified committee member (male, likely Charles Kimbell)]: I think this concept came up before, once, a few years ago.

[Emilie Kornheiser (Chair)]: Well, I think when we passed the military pension relief, there was a pretty robust conversation that was, frankly, was my both concern and hope related to the military pensions, that we were essentially prioritizing one group's value and valor over others, teachers, firefighters. We just talked yesterday on the House floor about the, in fact, personal danger the teachers are in these days. And so it's very hard to say yes to one group and no to another group. I've talked to Chris Dube about this as well. Every time we reduce revenue to the state, we actually have less revenue to give to salaries of public safety workers. So that's a hard balance too. But that's yeah. Other questions?

[Unidentified committee member (female)]: So, representative

[Unidentified committee member (male)]: Casey, when you say public safety, attention, police, rescue, fire? Yep. That's it. Any more?

[Rep. Conor Casey]: Oh, firefighters, EMT. And again, eyes wide open, the chair mentioned, you will get another knock at the door after this, right? And it is just a policy discussion we have to have.

[Unidentified committee member (male)]: Connor, just looking at this, from a US state or municipality, I'm sorry if this was the question you asked, so if somebody moves here from Massachusetts, so you're saying that if they receive a pension for a police officer in Massachusetts, that we should also exempt that retirement income?

[Rep. Conor Casey]: That's a good question. Yeah, I didn't really think of that too much. I would think that the Vermont pension system is what one of the pension system is what I was thinking of. But yeah, that's a good question.

[Emilie Kornheiser (Chair)]: I mean, it's an interesting point because as you said, these folks retire very early and generally go on to another career. So if we want retired firefighters and police from other states to

[Unidentified committee member (female)]: move here, then And it could be

[Rep. Conor Casey]: an incentive to keep some of our emergency personnel in Vermont.

[Rep. Woodman Page]: And what's that?

[Unidentified committee member (female)]: Well, you remind me all the time that Corrections institutions is a money committee. So I'm disappointed by the lack of evidence.

[Emilie Kornheiser (Chair)]: I did have that question. And

[Unidentified committee member (female)]: I won't tell. It's fine.

[Rep. Conor Casey]: We're not always treated as an equal money committee, don't think. That's okay. That's okay.

[Emilie Kornheiser (Chair)]: Piggybacking on. Excuse abacus.

[Unidentified committee member (female)]: That's true. I really just wanted to say abacus. Before I get off with Charlie, you mentioned other states that do or don't tax these pensions, specifically New England. Do you know if there are other?

[Rep. Conor Casey]: Well, of them that I was looking at wouldn't tax them at all. New Hampshire right next door, right? I thought I had a list here somewhere.

[Unidentified committee member (female)]: Yeah, if you could get us

[Rep. Conor Casey]: Yeah, I'll try to get a list of all the states,

[Unidentified committee member (female)]: I but think we get a lot of inter New England moving There is some out of region moving in, but I think that we hop around these states a lot. I'd be curious as to see where, not just New Hampshire, they don't catch much of anything.

[Rep. Conor Casey]: Fair play.

[Unidentified committee member (male, likely Charles Kimbell)]: Anyone else?

[Rep. Conor Casey]: I really appreciate the time folks. Have a great rest of the day. Happy Friday.

[Emilie Kornheiser (Chair)]: Folks, we are going to go to the floor and as I said, really