Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Thank you. And

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: we are live here Thursday morning, April ninth twenty twenty six, back in house transportation. Still working on s three twenty six, miscellaneous motor vehicle piece. And we have some testimony this morning that wanted to come in and talk about sections twenty five and twenty six, specialty use vehicles. And well, welcome to the first time in committee since I've been around.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: Yes, it's been a long time since I was in this committee actually. So for the record, Justin Johnson, I'm a lobbyist at MMR. I mean, in this instance representing Roth Speed, which is a company based in Milton that builds cars. And we're here to support this section of the bill, this language. It would help us because right now we are not able to register our cars in Vermont, even though they're built here, they can't be registered here. And this particular section just cracks the door open a little bit, it doesn't allow you to use the car every day. Most of the people who would buy one of these cars probably isn't going to use it any day, there's at least six months of the year they're probably not going to use it at all. They're sort of what it says, a specialty limited use sort of vehicle, but it does give you the opportunity to get it registered and drive it to events or on occasion. So, that's why we really support this legislation. The challenge for us is that, you know, and I know the question came up a few days ago when this bill first came here about well, can't we already do that? And the challenge is that a lot of what are called restomods or you know restored and modified cars are based on an existing car. So I have a 1976 Triumph TR6 in my garage, I could put a VA engine in that if I wanted to, but it wouldn't change what it was registered as it's still a '76 TR6, it has a VIN number and all that sort thing. The cars that are built in Milton are not built from another car, they're built from scratch. And so they don't come with a VIN number from you know 1964 or 1972 or 1976. We have to apply to the state of Vermont to get a VIN number for them. And because they would have a 2026 VIN number, that means they're then required to meet all of twenty twenty six's requirements. Whereas a car with a 1964 VIN number only has to meet 1964 requirements. It creates a challenge for us, particularly on the emissions side, not because the engines aren't certified, but because depending on the configuration of the vehicle and that some of them don't even have OBD2 ports, and so there's no way for us to get them inspected because we can't pass emissions because we don't have a port to plug the computer into, and so they would automatically fail an inspection and therefore wouldn't be able to be registered. So, what these sections do is define the vehicle, say it has to meet all the safety requirements, and then it but it doesn't have to have the emissions inspection done. And we did talk to ANR who's in charge of the emissions piece before we brought this in, and they were open to doing it because it was a very small number of vehicles. So it's not just our vehicles, but it would be but it's limited to 12. In California they have a waiver process for vehicles that is limited to 500. But as it turns out, there's a lot more cars in California than there are in Vermont. So when you do the math, 500 vehicles in California is equivalent to 12 vehicles in Vermont. So, that's how that number was arrived at just as an exam.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: What do those cars look like these vehicles look like you're talking about?

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: So, they look like a second generation Corvette. So, say a sixty six-sixty seven Corvette. The car is actually I'll tell you a little bit about the car, it's actually slightly wider, about six inches wider, that's to allow for a bit more comfort inside if you've ever been in a '66 Corvette, they're pretty tight, and also to allow for some safety equipment, because there's more safety equipment in a modern car than there is. The chassis is all completely designed in Milton, right. The only thing on the chassis that's not made here are the ball joints, they come from GM, and the struts basically and springs. Everything else, all the control arms, all the tyre rod ends, all designed and made here in Vermont. And then the body is all carbon fibre. It weighs the body weighs about 200 pounds. It's pretty light. It's very expensive. It's not made in Vermont. It was all designed here. All the molds were made here, but they're made out of state because there's no facility in Vermont that could actually has the technical ability at the moment to make them. So, then the bodies come back, they get attached. The engines, that's another thing that they don't make the engine, they buy the engine from GM. So it comes, it's a certified engine. And it's up to the customer a little bit about what they want in terms of engine. They can range anywhere from five twenty five horsepower up to about 1,500 horsepower. How

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: many make a year of those and what do they cost?

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: So they start at about 600,000. So they're not Which brings me back to my you're not driving it every day sort of thing. I'd want them. Okay. And I think you have to get signed up with a baseball team for about a Ford one.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Yeah,

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: like when you said they don't have, can't test the other diagnostic,

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: so how many miles have they driven in the state? Mean, do you have any idea? I'm talking about the potential air pollution from the exhaust.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: Right, so keep in mind the engine is an EPA certified engine. So, I don't know that I don't have a number on the number of miles. I mean, it's not very much in the state because you can't register them in the state. Well, I mean true, and right now they have the capacity to make about 12 a year, but frankly of these particular cars, one or two is likely to be registered in Vermont. One that they would register just so they could have it. So they have an example and then maybe I mean, I don't know, I just there's not a big there absolutely is not a big market for them in Vermont because you do have to have a fair bit of money to buy one and they go up from that figure because some people want to add things and change things around but they they're a modern car. They have ABS, they have traction control, they have all of the sort of modern things you would expect in a car. Have a the electronics in them all all been made and developed for this car. Sort of oddly enough given that I'm Australian by an Australian company that has built so all the dash is all digital, it has a lot of things you can control, and you can certainly keep the emissions well under what would be required, like for a Vermont inspection, but you could also go over depending on how it's configured. But in conversations with ANR, for instance ANR does not require emissions on off road vehicles, and in a racing situation, don't have to you don't have to do this. And even like you buy a John Deere tractor, a little garden tractor, your three three cylinder diesel engine, these cars would be a lot cleaner than that, and they don't have emissions on them either. What made them okay with it is it's such a small number, like 12 vehicles enables them to meet their state implementation plan for the Clean Air Act. It doesn't impact that, and so that's why they're okay with it.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: Should make electric.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: So, that may well happen at some point. It's certainly something they've thought about, and the challenge is the motor is actually great for that, because they're small, they're light, they're fast, the batteries are more of a challenge in terms of where you put them in the car, what impact they have on the weight and everything. You know this car is if you're a Corvette sort of aficionado, you would look at it and say there's something wrong with that, It doesn't look right. But for a lot of people, they'd look at and say, that's a Corvette. So we did get it licensed by GM because it looked so much like one of their cars. In order to do that, they wanted one. We had to take it out to Michigan. So, head of the Corvette chassis engineering took it for a 40 minute drive around their test track out there and wanted to know which university the engineers went to that built it, that would be Milton High School.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: So, Senator Brennan see this? I'm just thinking about his speech.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: He has seen it, yes.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: His sonnasfer.

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: Right.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: It's a subset of the Vermont population obviously that would be interested in a much smaller one that may ever buy one, but we just felt that it'd be really nice in a state where the thing is built that we'd be actually able to register one or two. So that was sort of the genesis of the language.

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, it's fascinating and quite a story for where they're built. Are there other companies doing this? So this is 12 a year.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: Right. Who else would qualify for that? So my understanding is that there is a company out in California that makes I think it was Damian, the alleged counsel I had mentioned that there's a AC Cobra replica if you've seen the movie Ford versus Ferrari. You know, Carol Shelby had a you know, those cars, like, an original one of those costs about $3,000,000. You can build a replica for about $50,000. And so there's a couple of different companies that do that. And I'm sure there's others around. There's there's a one that does old Broncos, like Ford Broncos. Yeah. And so arguably So there

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: are some others There are a few around. That you're aware of in Vermont.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: No. Not in Vermont. They're around the country, and then arguably, if a Vermonter bought one of those cars, they could register it under language. I think that and the 03/25 relates to the federal there's a federal act for small manufacturers that enables them to not have to do all of the same safe. They don't have to safety test the whole car as a car. They safety test components like the seat belts and the airbags all that tested and but they don't once they're all bolted in, they don't have to wreck them.

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Don't have to crash them.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: Right. You don't have to crash cars. That regulation says that you can only sell three twenty five in The US and no more than I think 5,000 worldwide. So, obviously for Vermont, we're not thinking about worldwide sales, but three twenty five just because it lined up, it seemed to make sense to use the same number, even though it feels like a sort of random number. Yeah, it's again, it would be a small number no matter what anywhere. And I can tell you in California, their experience was that in the first couple of years that there was available, they actually ran out of permits in the first, you know, before the end of the year, like they hit their 500 before they got, but it would seem that a lot of that was sort of built up sort of demand because nowadays, I think you can go in pretty much, you know, any time of the year, and they they always have some available because they don't hit 500 in a year.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Is that 500 new each year? Is this meant to be 12?

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: No. It's it's 500 no. Sorry. It's 500 new ones. So because once you have it, it stays with that car for life. Like, that car's you you keep it registered if you

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: pay $26 a year. So it would be adding no more than 12 in any one year added on. That was a question because the certificate of registration for not more than 12 limited use specialty vehicles per year. But if I that does not mean you're really trying to separate not renewals, just 12 totally totally new registrations. My understanding is

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: it would be 12 new, so you already you've got whatever you've got, and you wouldn't add any more than 12 a year. And I guess I'm just saying I'm

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: not I'll have to go back to Damian again on that, but I didn't think it was clear whether these were additional or these were for the, you

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: know Yeah. Well, I think If

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: you registered four this year and four now, like in three years, you got 12. Right. So renewals, but the think

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: So I guess 12

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: new ones.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: And I guess it's not clear is what I had my note in here. Was this intended that it would be 12 new ones each year, not counting any renewals?

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: I think that's certainly up to the committee. I would say 12 in total forever would be problematic because as you say in three years, I mean in twelve years it means you're only doing one a year which would I think would be lower than what I think the demand.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: In section 26 I'm not sure it's entirely clear to me but maybe it is I'm not sure I'm reading it right. Represent the

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: I think it's a slippery. I I I saw it last year when it was here. And and I guess I I did think it was a poor vet, but I did think there was something different about it. But a little on the expensive side, but do you have a scratch and blemish sale and all ever?

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: Well, Scott Roth, who's the owner, did actually scratch one down at Miami Homestead Speedway last year when he took it for a spin. I don't know. The problem is carbon fibre is really expensive. And, you know, this car, all the all the body, all the dash, it's all carbon fibre. Yeah. The bumpers, everything. I think all up, the whole thing weighs just under 2,400 pounds.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: I could keep it on the ground. No.

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: My side by Right.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: It weighs about as much as an early two thousand's Mini Cooper with a slightly larger engine. It has good engine management. You can with the engine management, you can set it so it drives like a Corolla, like it'll bear like it even if you floor it, it will barely move.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Wasn't sure if you want to.

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, I think it might be for our pledge counsel just maybe it's somewhere in here. Didn't see it. Definition of specialty vehicle. I think the first section that introduces this talks about a definition. Oh yeah, yeah it's just above, you're right. That's in '25, yeah. Okay.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: My confusion is on '26. Yes, in the actual number, yeah.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: I feel

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: like that needs to be clearer.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Yeah, I think if we put some additional ones for years.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Because it says the commissioner shall issue a certificate of registration. So that doesn't say new registration, that just says registrations. So So we maybe want to just put one word in there saying the commissioner shall issue

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: new registrations. No more than 12 new registrations a year. That would work for us. I think that would

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Until we get to

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: 500.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Representative Keyser is up. Representative Keyser, you all set?

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Yes, thank you.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Representative White? Then it's Representative Pouech.

[Rep. Candice White]: Yeah, thank you. So this company is Roth Speed, is

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: that and

[Rep. Candice White]: it sounds like they're making these very specialized bars. There are other companies that repurpose existing bars, but this is the only one in Vermont.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: It's the only one in Vermont that I know of, yeah.

[Rep. Candice White]: So And who's the market and what do they do with these cars? Are these really like to take to a car show or drive out on a Sunday morning?

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: Some of them, I I don't know all of the people, but I think just generally speaking with these sorts of cars, some people use them for track days, they take them to racetracks. Some people will take them to car shows. Some people would drive them just drive them occasionally. I mean, you know, none of my friends, I have to say, but, you know, there there's a lot of vehicles, you know, whether it's Ferraris or Aston Martins or any of you know, that reach this sort of money, and some of them a lot higher that people own. But I think for this particular vehicle, I think the track day thing is likely to be because it's a very capable track car. I mean, it drives really well on a racetrack.

[Rep. Candice White]: It's fast,

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: yes. It's fast.

[Rep. Candice White]: But also very light. So highway driving, I wouldn't want to come into contact with another car if it's that light.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: Well, if I'd spent $600, I wouldn't want to come into contact with anything. We

[Rep. Candice White]: don't want to.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: But yes, it's not something that you would It's got safety features built in, and it has AVS and traction control and all that sort of thing, and it has But yes, you want to be careful with it, I would have thought.

[Rep. Candice White]: Because the weight of this car versus a normal car, you said it's 200

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: pounds. Well, that was just the body, the car itself 2,400 pounds. I mean, there's lots of cars that weigh that. I mean, Triumph TR6 I have weighs less than that. But I wouldn't want to hit anything in it either. Mean, it makes you know, a Chevy Silverado looks like a monster truck when I'm driving that TR6.

[Rep. Candice White]: And you said they use an existing like General Motors engine, and that's a modern engine? Yeah,

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: we use modern engines, actually use, it uses a BMW transmission, because we found them to be really bulletproof, and work really well, and can handle the power. But yeah, and then all the differential and the rear end is all built in house. Have a CNC machine that is running all the time making parts.

[Rep. Candice White]: And so the challenge is that these have not been able to be registered in the state of Vermont because they don't come with a BIN number.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: Right now in the state of Vermont, if you have a 2026 model car, you have to plug it in and get emissions pass the emissions test in order to pass inspection in order to be registered. If you have an old car, you don't have to do that because they didn't have OBD ports. So, what all this does is get you out of the emissions inspection, it doesn't avoid the safety inspection. So, we have DOT, Federal Department of Transport approved glass and everything. So, it's not going to break in ways that are extra dangerous or anything. That's all had to be specially made because you can't just buy a regular Corvette window because this one's wider, so all that sort of stuff.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: I think there was already a couple of questions from Representative House, Representative Casey, then Representative

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: I have a question and a comment. These would still have to go through the annual safety inspection.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: Yes, they would have to be inspected.

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: The plug in, yeah. This seems all reasonable. Mean, really have to drive one to

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: So

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: you're saying fast, how fast is fast?

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: That's a great question. I think mathematically around 180, 190, but without a speedway to test it on, I don't know that anyone's actually been all the way up there. And you would want to do that in a pretty safe place. You wouldn't want to just do that driving down the road. So, the guys out of GM may know, but I don't know but they were really impressed Yeah that's one of the options and you can get it either natural aspirator or turbocharged.

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: Just GM though right?

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: We'll start with GM because it was sort of GM vehicle. I

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: do want to point out though, go ahead and represent the car.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: So these are kind of like a Jay Leno would buy this.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: That'd be great. Actually we had the car at the big car show, the SEMA show out in Las Vegas last year in November, and a guy walked up on the last day, which is the one day that's open to the public and said, how much is this? Because I just sold my McLaren. It was all janky and kept breaking down, so I got rid of that. How much are these? And he they said the price. He goes, so can I just give you a check right now? How's how's that work?

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: I thought, well, I guess.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Perfect. That

[Unidentified Committee Member]: would be three days, and you

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: can pick up the car.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Yeah. Point out in Section 26, I guess, the end of last sentence, of course, is not to exceed one day a week. So, you know, we're not talking about the pleasure of use or mean Doesn't work very well for a weekend car show, You're gonna You're gonna have

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: to use half of one day and half of the other. I, you

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: know, I would I

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: would not be opposed to that number being slightly high. That's

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: the idea. You know, if you could bring one to the car show on the Swanton Village Green, this July 19. That would be pretty impressive. But we would be able to make that an extra day so that you could drive up one day. I would hold it for you and then you could drive it back the next day. So I don't know, does it really work one day a week because it truly should say that or should say something else? Or is that if anybody's got a problem when we're done, nobody's on the hill to tell them. We're going to the cars, though. We got to get there and get back.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: One thing

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: we went out to church and you know, it's yours.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Well, you're gonna want to pray if you're going 190 on a road in Vermont.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: I do have a question on that. So it doesn't have a vehicle ID? Yes,

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: it gets a Vermont DMV will issue a VIN number.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: A VIN number, okay that

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: was my

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: question once it goes through.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: And they have an existing process for doing that. Okay,

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: thank you. Who's

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: personally don't have I I don't I think you should be able to drive a corner once a week. I mean I don't even know how anybody would even know unless you've got law enforcement living next door.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: I think I mean if

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: you ask me I think the fact that says you not for you know daily commuter use. Yeah. Or to cover I mean that's the the point is you're not driving it every day. Well we would be totally fine with that because as I said, I don't think the people who drive by these are driving them every day. I mean, just not the sort of thing you would drive every day.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: They have something for Tuesday, something

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: Right, for Wednesday. Yeah. That's on the call.

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: Do

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: we put limits on antique?

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: We do have limits. Not sure if it says one day, but there is existing limits on

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: model after an antique car?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: That's what was we need to get like a side by side. Yeah. We gotta use regulation.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: But it's because it's an antique, the hot rod, which is pre 1934.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah. That

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: sounds like a good idea. Yeah. So I don't know why we're limiting this one if we're not limiting.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: What's the demand on these?

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Is this like a bag of water?

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: No, this is pretty small, only a small number of waters, right, where, you know

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So you're not even approaching 12 a year? Are they just filling?

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: No. No. Not yet.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: What you doing?

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: I'm not sure. Don't

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: know, I'd have to challenge.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: And a lot of, and you know, I think you know carbon fibre, the body itself just to produce all that is probably close to $200,000 by just any materials and workmanship on the carbon fibre, because it's, you know, fibre is expensive. It's why cars, just regular road cars, don't have it. It's really light, it's stronger than steel, It's a great product. They use it in Formula one cars, but, you know, those things cost gazillions of dollars. There's a reason why these things are really expensive. And so, you know, for for Scott, it was all about doing the absolute best he could do. And we'd love to get the price a little lower, and there's work being done to try and do that. And part of it, but you know, it's a fairly manual process at this smaller volume, you're not just pumping out parts out of a press, know, you're sort of making them, and you know, sometimes tweaking them to make you know, to improve it over time, but it's small volume, high cost.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Does Governor Scott even ask to drive?

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: I'm not sure if he's driven one, but it was Governor Scott who actually introduced me to these guys and said, you should go up there. I'm not going to tell him that I've driven one. Have, yes. Look with

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: a smile on his face.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Couple of times.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: So, do you

[Unidentified Committee Member]: have any essay stories or like somebody who came to, you know, Scott's, I need to, I want to buy one, I'm from Vermont, and they said, Oh no, you can't because it's not registered. Now I'm just trying to figure out what problem I'm trying to solve here. I was like, there's very few that are being built, and there. Many cases where somebody might have died trying to

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: buy I

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: don't think that's happened. I will say that the number one problem that it would solve for us is we could register the one that we would drive around here and actually be able to drive it and, you know, have people

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I was gonna say that there's a Vermont license plate on one of these cars. Yeah.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: But that was just for the picture.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: But anyway, was a case because I didn't see that in the fire. Yeah. It's not that you can't tell if you don't belong to that vehicle.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: Yeah. No. That's right. It was just for the picture. Oh, okay.

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: It was the question. Yeah. That's when I put my plate on just

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: for the piece out.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: That's right. I got a whole collection on one of

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: our You have any color you want as long as it's that color?

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: You can have any color you want. No. Yeah. We've moved on from Henry Ford, you can have a different color. In fact, we had a different color out at the SEMA show because they wrapped it. That's the other thing we do these days is just wrap cars and then change the color as often as you like.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: So, as fun as it is, it sounds like there's two or three things in this section that we're going to want to follow-up on. Whether it's 12 new or 12 total, whether it's One day or not all the times, yes. Or not, and how it compares to how show car, antique car, and any other specialty issues we have out there besides those.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: We're happy to come back at any time if you have any other questions.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Want to revisit it again. You'll have to get it

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: back down if if Yeah.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: We don't want to revisit the language again in a year, three years or three years. Right. No, no, no. So let's try to bite that up and if we're going revisit it, would be in a field trip. In in the language again. It is impressive. Make a note of those two or three things. Well, thank you for unless there's more questions. Thank you very much for coming in this morning.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Thanks for your time. Appreciate it.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Take a few minutes looking at the sections. I'm particularly looking at the summary, but sections, there's thirty secondtions. We know that section 24, we're gonna spend a fair amount more time on the inspection manual piece. We obviously just made a note that we're gonna have to spend a little bit more time on this section twenty five and twenty six and twenty seven, I guess it is, right? These go together. What else are people does anybody else have anything on there's a few other sections we still haven't heard from the DMV on. But if there's a particular area or concerns or questions or things that we want to make sure we're revisiting. One through six, don't think we're touching again. It's already been gone through language in multiple pieces. Think anybody, know, smugglers not always generates quite a bit of interest But I don't know whether you need to or not need to. People wanna hear more about that. I did already get another email and a couple more things on this salvage title issue. So I these are some of those things that I don't know anything about. But when you mention them out, somehow the word travels. So I've gotten requests for more testimony on the salvage title. There's more people coming

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: in on that. Don't know anybody else that

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: has particular strengths or interest in that, but there is it does seem to affect people out there. I get emails on it. Can we look at this section? Can we look at that section? Can we look at this part again? There's a liability question on the insurance. There's a question on the need for the title. Now there's a question on the value of whatever's left. I'm sorry.

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: And Danny is going to run over the last few sections.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Yes, exactly. At 03:30, we're gonna finish the last couple of pages. I'm sort of jump starting. This will be the conversation after that. We're having a little bit sooner than other you don't have to answer it right now. If somebody knows, we're gonna hear more on section we haven't got to section 29 yet. I don't know if that's tinting on '28. So twenty eight, twenty nine, thirty, we'll hear this afternoon, and then we'll pick it up from but I'm looking to hear if you want to let me know outside of the committee or even now if there's some ones that you're looking for more attention on. Representative White, I just got the idiots. Representative White, you're up and then Representative White.

[Rep. Candice White]: I'm just questioning, did we wanna have someone from A and R in to address the emissions based on that conversation we just had regarding this?

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: I was going to plan on having them in about inspections in general and their comment, and particularly, even though we're not yet looking at that other bill, what their comment on how two years would impact that, and if they can update us on what they're following in New Hampshire. So I was gonna have them get on about four or five phones

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: to

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: And give us a then we

[Rep. Candice White]: had also talked about speaking with someone in law enforcement or with the coast guard on the sanitation devices.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: There are. Yep. That's a good one to mention. That is there are multiple working there. They have the agenda for that one. They're all small, short, but they're all there is multiple. That's in 21. 20 one's got more people coming.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Representative Pouech? So, you had brought up the, when we were talking about the motorboat registration sticker, where it was gonna be on vote. Yep. It mentioned motorcycle. People were concerned. Was gonna ask. These people, I mean I don't know if we can, if there's anything we can do or if they've done anything or anything like that. Let's see. Jim, you said there was a place to put those or?

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: They used to

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: watch you to put them on the, of the forks. Yeah. Yeah. Harley guys are chrome. They don't want stickers on their chrome. There's a right by your shifter on the left there, there's a little plate that has a little tab that bolts into an existing bolt and it sticks out like a little flag and put your

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Yeah. I don't know if that's an issue. Looks quite Maybe just double check that.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: Just on the inspections, do we have a plan for folks coming in

[Rep. Candice White]: to testify? I think it would be really helpful to

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: their phone's mechanics directly on that.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Do not have a The plan has not been set yet. Other than that, it's going to get significant time. Absolutely, by all means, hand out any or suggest anybody who'd like to

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: do. Represent, please.

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: Damian's getting an answer on whether the person that's doing the inspection is gonna be held liable over Remember how they were talking about the day of inspection, you might have something that's marginal, but it passes that day.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: And

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: was talking about the the mechanic making a suggestion that maybe your your brakes are wearing out or whatever and I was kinda looking for some clarity on that. It sounds like a liability, an added liability to the mechanic. But, yeah, he gave me just didn't have an answer for it.

[Justin Johnson (MMR lobbyist, representing Roth Speed)]: Yep.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: That's what I'm looking for. Is anybody else who's got some things hanging out there that we want to make sure are answered in addition to the ones we're already headed towards? So we are then You got another break for fifteen minutes till 11:00?

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: You guys are early. Oh,

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: well, wait a minute. You wanna go that way or wanna go that way? Which one of us can go? Thumbs up. We'll start early. There

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: you go.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: We'll have a longer lunch break. By all means, who wants to go first in which direction? You look at your agenda, we're just went from me being very late to being way ahead of schedule.

[Rep. Candice White]: Extra lunch so no one's going to complain. I

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: have not been able bring any regularity to the schedule lately. Good morning. Good

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: morning. Yes, it

[Unidentified Committee Member]: is still morning.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Transportation, we are still live and have been here in a little discussion. But we're looking at where we at here, Section 20 And 21. Wouldn't that be where I could say, well, Representative White asked and you shall hear her, whatever it is, right? There we go. Okay.

[Jess Lucas (Director of Aquatics, Greater Burlington YMCA)]: Good morning. Thank you so much for not only having me, but for the clear and serious recognition you're giving to this very important bill. My name is Jess Lucas, and I'm the Director of Aquatics at the Greater Burlington YMCA. I am here today in support of S. Three twenty six, the bill that proposes to require all individuals on board a vessel between November 1 and May 1 to wear a personal flotation device, life jacket. We don't often talk about water safety the same way we do instill in adults car seat education. We don't talk about water safety in the same way we fit children for bicycle helmets and tell them why it's so important to wear when riding. We don't talk about water safety in the same way we explain to look both ways before crossing the street. We don't talk about water safety. Drowning is a silent tragedy. Prevention of drowning is possible, but it requires time, coordinated effort, money, and state level leadership, as stated in the 2022 report on water safety in Vermont, published by Safe Kids Vermont. What began as a collective partnership between the Vermont Child Fatality Review Team and Safe Kids Vermont has grown into the Water Safety Action Committee, which for the past three years has worked to identify reasons for the morbidity and mortality of children and adults from drowning and recreational activities in our state. Vermont has limited state level legislation related to water safety. As a result, guidance often relies on local ordinances, insurance company mandates, and or personal choice. The Water Safety Action Committee works through a coordinated partnership that includes Safe Kids Vermont, Vermont Child Fatality Review Boards, the Greater Burlington Y, Live Like Ben Joe Foundation, the Children's Hospital, Vermont Department of Health, and the University of Vermont Health Network, Vermont State Police Marine Division, and Swim Lake Annie Incorporated. Together, we are working to reduce unintentional drowning deaths, hospitalizations, and emergency department visits across the state. The goal is simple, to prevent drowning in our communities. Vermont has 7,100 miles of rivers and streams, as well as 242,219 acres of lakes, reservoirs, ponds, and 300,000 acres of freshwater wetlands. The moment the sun comes out and air temperatures rise, we are all enjoying the outdoors. We do not come inside until the snow falls. Currently, only children under the age of 13 are required to wear a life jacket when boats are underway. S-three 26 proposes that for cold weather on or before May 1 of each year and on or after November 1 of each year, all individuals aboard a vessel while underway, and if an individual is on open deck, shall wear a properly secured wearable US Coast Guard approved personal flotation device as intended by the manufacturer. As a committee, cold water life jacket legislation became a primary focus because of its attainability. There are zero reasons to not take this small step to protect one another. It is simple, it is effective, and it saves lives. Cold water shock is a major factor in boating fatalities when temperatures are less than 70 degrees Fahrenheit. Cold water shock causes involuntary gap, often resulting in aspiration of water, hyperventilation, breathlessness, and a reduced ability to control your breathing and swim. A life jacket worn properly greatly increases your chance for survival in cold water, while also increasing the amount of time for you to be rescued. A life jacket buys us time. It keeps you afloat if you lose your sense of recognition of what to do. When disoriented, panic takes over. In cold water, when the body and brain are no longer working together, a life jacket can mean the difference between life and death. Life jackets are the extra layer of protection that could save a life. In closing, as a representative of the Water Safety Action Committee, I believe safety is everyone's responsibility. I support this bill because we want everyone to get home safely each and every day. Thank you.

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: Not sticking around for questions.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: I'm set of white.

[Rep. Candice White]: Yeah, thank you, Jess. That was really helpful. So we reviewed this language a little earlier in the week, and my question was on the dates, recognizing that May 1, it's still pretty cold and like Champlain. So do you feel like these dates proposed are the correct dates, or should those be modified? Just as you said, when the sun comes out, people get excited and early May in Lake Champlain is probably causing hypothermia. Absolutely. We

[Jess Lucas (Director of Aquatics, Greater Burlington YMCA)]: pick these dates because neighboring states who have this law, these are the dates that they utilize. Certainly extending it into June where we live would help, but based upon other states, kind of the May 1, May 15 is the dates that they have laws in place. So somewhat following what's been successful for those states, that's how we pick these dates. Certainly our goal would be all adults, all year in life jackets, but that's simply not attainable. And so it's just based upon what other states have found successful.

[Rep. Candice White]: Okay, because I'm thinking we would probably be similar to Maine, but Rhode Island, Massachusetts, those are warmer climates. Correct.

[Jess Lucas (Director of Aquatics, Greater Burlington YMCA)]: And I was just in New York and they have a May 1. I actually went naddling last Saturday. It was lovely and freezing cold and theirs is a May 1. Thank you.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: A quick question. Any good legislation is predicated off of education and people being aware that we have a law on this. You said you're on the Water and Safety Committee. What role would you play as far as, do you hand out brochures or making the public aware that if

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: we do move forward, that's your

[Jess Lucas (Director of Aquatics, Greater Burlington YMCA)]: ballot along? Exactly, so publications put out by, say, the state parks, many of them have a paddling brochure, so it would be included in that. In this day and age, social media is a big piece of it. So in recent years, when we've had some tragedies, we've seen places like the coast guard send information out, making people aware of the dangers. And in an ideal world, if we can say, these are the dangers and this is how you can protect yourself and it's a law, then hopefully people will abide by the law. That's not always true, so education is a big piece of it. So looking at getting information in newsletters all year, but certainly this is the prime time of year to do that education and state parks through the recreation departments would be another one. A lot of them operate their ponds, their river access points, perhaps some signage that would come at an expense. And we of course question, who reads signs all the time? So it would really be that education around, this is to keep all of us safe, and it buys you time as an individual to stay afloat and the worst case scenario to be easily rescued.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Okay, thank you.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Representative Pouech.

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, I mean, just this last week, I

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: think we

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: had a drowning death, kayaking, and we were talking about one a couple of years ago that was quite the tragedy. And do you have any data that says, oh, they didn't have their flotation device on or how often it happens in cold water where, hey, they might've been saved or they might've saved themselves.

[Jess Lucas (Director of Aquatics, Greater Burlington YMCA)]: Absolutely, Al has some data points in the slides that he's gonna show. And a lot of it is around the time and thinking about not only the time, but also the expense. All throughout the winter, rescue boats are not in the water. And so in the case of this weekend, from what I've read, she absolutely had a helmet on, she had a life jacket on, and she was able to be retrieved because she was floating. Whereas unfortunately, if she was not wearing that life jacket, retrieval would have been much more difficult, it would have taken longer, and it would have put more people at risk. When you start having rescuers have to go in the water, it's swift moving. And so just that buying of time, which is hard to quantify because we can't run that experiment. But if we think about those factors, they definitely do help. The tragedy a few years ago, you might be referring to the grandparents.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: I

[Jess Lucas (Director of Aquatics, Greater Burlington YMCA)]: would like to hope that life jackets could have had an outcome, but again, we don't know. What we do see though, is that people who have life jackets on can be helped much easier.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Thank you, Representative and then Representative Casey.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: Yeah, I just, so I live literally across the street from Shelburne Bay, which is at this time of the year an attractive nuisance with all the kayakers who are out there in tank tops and shorts the water is as cold as this. So wondering, I've got to think a lot people just have no idea how dangerous this is. I'm wondering if your organization does any outreach, you think

[Jess Lucas (Director of Aquatics, Greater Burlington YMCA)]: of social media with just letting people know that they really ought to be thinking about a wet suit, honestly, or at least, I mean, ideally a dry suit, but just something that would be connection with this. Absolutely. Paddling community can be a challenging one to infiltrate. And in general, getting the word out. There's almost too many ways to do that. And so that's a conversation we have. We've got folks, we just had a meeting this week that represent the state parks. I'm part of the Vermont Park Innovation So working about educating, one of the hardest things this time of year is that those locations are not staffed. So people are going, parking wherever they want, because there's no one to regulate that doing whatever they want. There's not checks to make sure life jackets are even on board vessels. And so it's really a piece of educating the public in any channels we can about those dangers. Yeah, I

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: just wanted to say, our fire and rescue spends a lot of time on water rescues, for this reason, we all hope it's kind of something that's rarely used, but it's a new thing.

[Jess Lucas (Director of Aquatics, Greater Burlington YMCA)]: Yeah, we communicate. I'm Mike Cannon from Urban Search and Rescue is on our committee as well, and we're constantly talking about how to get this word out and just make sure people know.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: What was that? Representative Casey and then Representative Burke?

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: It doesn't do anything to the ice fishermen, right? The ice fishermen don't have

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: to walk around with them. Correct. Okay. Good. Represent Bird.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: Know over the winter there were a couple of things. Don't know whether it was radio programs, it was Ramana vision, whenever talking about the dangers of shoveling snow, you know, making sure that you take care, especially if you had any heart condition. And was wondering about the same thing, going up to a lot of the ship to talk about this issue, it's probably something they'd be interested in, you know, even for half the program, and you know, other ways to get that information out, so it's, you know, I heard something like two or three times over the winter, people talking about this, and so it sort of sticks after you get here a little bit.

[Jess Lucas (Director of Aquatics, Greater Burlington YMCA)]: I think people are not so aware about the dangers of water. And we talk a lot, we'll start hearing about the swift water right now because of the snow melt and if it rains. And so unfortunately, as with many things, when there's a tragedy, being the aquatics director at the YMCA, WCAX, WPTZ will reach out. And we start seeing that late May, June about general swimming safety or swimming at like the potholes. And so we do have access to various news outlets to be able to get the word out, frankly, all winter. Right.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Judge Keith,

[Unidentified Committee Member]: is there any penalty for not doing this within the statute?

[Jess Lucas (Director of Aquatics, Greater Burlington YMCA)]: There wouldn't be, really enforcement would be game wardens, But again, a lot of those are not staffed or very low staffed this time of year. So that's why there's sort of no financial component to this. It would really just be an education about how to keep yourself and your friends and family safe.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Got it, thank you.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: The word says, well, underway. So if you're just floating, is that underway or is it just talking about underway, meaning not on the dock?

[Jess Lucas (Director of Aquatics, Greater Burlington YMCA)]: Not on the dock. And so if you're in the water on the vessel and it's open, so if you're in a kayak and you've pushed off from the dock, I would have to have it on and secure.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: And the other part about, I guess, open deck, it has any kind of cabin or any kind of inside, outside, you don't have to wear any inside of any kind of a

[Jess Lucas (Director of Aquatics, Greater Burlington YMCA)]: Correct, which would be similar to how the law is stated right now for kiddos.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Okay.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Anybody else? Thank you very much. Thanks for staying for the question.

[Jess Lucas (Director of Aquatics, Greater Burlington YMCA)]: Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for all the questions. I appreciate it.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Gabrielle, is this okay to share?

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Okay. Is it? Is mine as well?

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: They're not? You're right.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Great start. We need to put in the chair again. He's the best.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Gabriel, can I have a little TA?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Alright. Yeah. Right.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Next to me

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: is Dave Ravondi.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: I'm Al Johnson. I'm the voting administrator for the state of Vermont. I work for the Department of Public Safety. I'm embedded with the state police. I'm a civilian employee in the marine division state police. My role in my current position is to oversee our recreational boating safety grant. All the states and territories get a grant from the Coast Guard for boating safety activities. Vermont gets about $1,000,000 a year from the beds, Then we match with $1,000,000 in state funds or state eligible activities. The big part of the RBS grant that we do is we oversee the vessel numbering system with our partners at AOT. We conduct enforcement patrols and saturation patrols in fourth July and that sort of thing. Search and rescue activities. We oversee the voter education program to the state, both in person and online through a third party vendor. And then we maintain the marine casualty system for Vermont that the Coast Guard puts out there for us, and that's how they collect injury data, what they do to boating. The goal today is to talk about, you know, and always on the water is just making sure everybody gets home safely from a day on the water. That's always my goal. I'm a lifelong boater. I've been a surfer since I was 15. I grew up at the beach on Kit Kod, swimming, sailing, all the things. And in some places, you're taught that from a very young age in boating safety, just part of who you are, and I'm lucky enough that I have all that background. But in a rural state like Vermont, it's a little different. There's a lot of folks that are just very occasional users. Some go to summer camp and have great experiences, and they learn to swim and sail and water ski and all that sort of thing. Other folks, don't have those skills. So we just wanna make sure everybody gets home. The reality is in cold water season, it's extremely dangerous to be on the water. There's fewer motors on the water, which leads to much slower response times. Due to its significantly higher thermal conductivity and density, water drains body of heat 25 times faster than air. So that's if you're standing outside in your swim trucks in 20 degree air, 30 degree air. If you get in 35 degree water, 25% faster, very quick. In a cold water immersion scenario, every second counts. And as Jess mentioned, life jackets all, it buys us time for survival. With slow response time, any minute you're in the water where you're not struggling and you're still afloat is beneficial. So the physiology of this piece is what we call the 100 ten-one principle. It talks about cold shock, cold incapacitation, and then how hypothermia fits into the equation. It's all up there in the slide, but in that first minute that you're in the water, your body, when it's immersed in water below 50 degrees, just gasps. You will audibly gasp. It's very easy to aspirate water, and it really only takes about a pint of water aspirated into your lungs through your mouth. It's very quick, it's very deadly. If you get past that first minute, you have, for the most part, ten minutes, maybe a little longer, before your muscles and the rest of your organs start to change in cold water. Your ability to control your body is very limited. People who say they're strong swimmers don't stand a chance of blasting the water. Hypothermia is the final stage of this. It can be an hour later to be hypothermic, but in real cold water, most people never make it that far, unfortunately. This is just kind of the average water temperatures. I know you're talking about dates, whether it should be May 1 or June 1. That magic number here, 50 degrees Fahrenheit. Once we're down below 50 degrees, it's cold. I'm a NOAA weather radio fan. We talked about notifications about cold water immersion. They put that stuff out there, but I listen to it every morning as I get ready as as kind of habit. The the lake water in Lake Champlain this morning is 37 degrees, and we're entering the April. I don't think June 1 is a big reach as far as extending the date period. So effectiveness wise, it's a high fatality rate without life jackets, period. Data indicates that approximately seventy five to eighty seven percent of drowning victims, and this is in any kind of water, in boating accidents, were not wearing a life jacket. And that's for the Coast Guard. That's for that data that that we submit and all the other states put out there. I've got a data project that I will reference later where we looked at Vermont injury data. And Vermont, the rate was seventy five percent of the folks who perished on the water during the evaluation period were not wearing life jackets. So it's just a very common number. Life jackets stay alive. The Coast Guard estimates eighty percent of fatalities could be prevented if people were wearing life jackets. Accessibility versus wear, simply having a life jacket on board, which is a lot of people's response, I've got it on board, I'm safe. It's not really sufficient in cold water because the shock and muscle failure happened too quickly. And putting a life jacket on in the water, I would dare anybody to try it. It's really fun to watch in the summertime, watch somebody try and put a life jacket on in the water, but it's very difficult to do. It's kind of like your seat belt. If you're proactive with your seat belt, you put it on when you start the car before you go out the driveway. And that's a prevention activity. It's a public health exercise too. And if you think about how quickly an accident happens in a car, you don't have time to put your seat belt on in the middle of an accident to prevent something from going wrong. And it's the same thing on the boat. And the problem with a boat, it's more complicated than an automobile because in a car, the roadway is not moving. On a boat, everything is moving potentially. So it's very difficult, almost impossible. And then the behavioral impact research indicates that mandatory legislation is the most effective way to affect behavior change in adults who are otherwise unlikely to wear life jackets consistently. The Coast Guard does a life jacket wear study. It's an observation study. They do it every couple years. They do it throughout the country. And then the life jacket rates go like this. To the moon until they're 12 because that's mandatory wear. And then as kids become teenagers, it starts to go down, and it goes down and down and down as people age. And the worst offenders are people like me who are about 60 years old, to be honest. Safety versus convenience. So the false sense of security, you folks already addressed. It's warm out there in Shelburne Bay. It's 70 degrees out, and the water is 40 degrees, and there's people in kayaks and canoes, especially the stand up paddle boards, craft that are always likely to tip, and people wind up in the water. You talked about the Lewis Creek incident. That's was added back in 2021, the next year in April 2022. In Lake Seymour, was an incident of two young men wearing a two person kayak at a pond, Lake Seymour. Air temperature's 35, the water temperature was 39, and they went out paddling, no life jackets. They wound up in the water and they're both couched. Heavy clothing is a trap. In cold weather, boaters wear heavy layers that become waterlogged. It just drags you down quicker, and it makes a luggage jacket essential. Any assistance you can get to the point.

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: Those people have light preserves on? No.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: They were at a vacation property. They were visiting from other states, so they had no idea about the environment, the danger, that sort of thing, and their hosts did not inform them of what they were up against, basically. So in October 2024, we had a heavy clothing incident down in Rue Pond. We had a hunter who was out at the beginning of duck season October, and the air was 50 and the water was 40. He's out on his kayak up hunting, and he went over the side and perished in Rue Pond. So there's just a lot of things that can happen. And, you know, the the last bullet here, the increased danger for for paddlecraft is significant. I just mentioned it. I mentioned it. My national organization has a task force just to deal with the paddleback community because of the the number of deaths and the number of incidents with that community, just super high risk. This is just a map of the states that currently have laws in place. This is a slide from my national organization. It's called NASWA, the National Association of State Boating Law Administrators. It's basically the me from every state and any other staff that are funded by the recreational boating safety grant. So most mostly Northeast And New England. Similar conditions exist. I was in Montana and Wyoming and North and South Dakota and the backwaters in Minnesota and all that kind of thing. They don't have laws to place up there. And it's big country. So policy and practicality continued. Proactive protection, the laws protect voters during the most dangerous time of the year. Simplifying compliance, a mandatory wear law removes ambiguity, ensures all passengers are protected rather than relying on quick decision making during a panic or an incident. We basically want the safe choice to be the easy choice, and putting a law in place helps people make the safe choice more often than not. Reduced burden on rescuers. A life jacket increases visibility in the water, but most of them are brightly colored. Makes rescue operations faster, and it makes it safer for emergency personnel. We were talking about recovery earlier. One of the groups that gets equipment for my grant is the underwater recovery team, the dive team at the State Police. And for that group to go on the water when it's really cold, it's dangerous, they train for it, but I never like to see them do it if they don't have to. And different parts of Lake Champlain, for instance, are 300 feet deep. So if somebody in a bigger boat has a problem in deep water, the recovery would be very, very difficult. And then enforcement. Although enforcement is not a prior primary goal here, Vermont Game Wardens are often on the water or at boating access points and ramps and that sort of thing. And they can conduct life jacket compliance verifications during during like waterfowl hunting checks, fishing checks, and if they see kayakers at the ramp, kayakers, canoers, those sort of things. And then number five is a success story. Mark Schleppenheiser is the BLA in Pennsylvania. He's a close colleague of mine, and they started a law in 2012. Pennsylvania's mandatory life jacket law has significantly improved boater safety by requiring jackets on small boats, canoes, pikes from November April 30. The the regulation targeting cold water shock has cut the cold water boating fatalities by approximately fifty percent since the law was put into place with cold weather death percentages dropping from fifty eight percent to seventeen percent. So how many people did we save? How many people would have perished? How many people had enough time bought for them that they were able to be saved? For some of the questions that this answers. I also do some work with another organization where I get funding from the Safe States Alliance. Before I worked for the state police, I worked for fifteen years for the health department in chronic disease prevention. And the health department, collaboration with VSP, conducted this data safety project funded by the Safe States Alliance. And we completed it in 2025. There's a link there on the slide. And it goes through the data that we put into the Coast Guard. Then it tries to broaden the data field of what we're really looking at. The Coast Guard data is only really a small slice of what's really happening on the water. What we found is that the the incidence of incidents and accidents on the water is is 10 x to what gets reported to the health department or to the postcard. So we used a bunch of different data sources to kind of verify the number and look at the outcomes. And then there's just another tab here of other boating safety information if you wanna learn some more. The boating statutes for Vermont Title 23, which you all probably have looked at. Vermont use of public waterways that is managed by the Department of Environmental Conservation. My state police and marine unit has a webpage that has a lot of boating information. Fish and Wildlife also has boating information and fishing information. The National Association of State Voting Law Administrators, my organization, there's a lot there. And then the Coast Guard Voting Safety Branch, they solicit there as well. That's all I have today. For people.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: So what would you say the percentage of lunar concusses and kayakers during the peak seasons who wear

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: The flotation devices. That's a good question. It is a much lower number than I'm comfortable with. I can't give you an exact number. I look at all of the patrol logs from the state police officers. Our other subgrantees on the water are the Grand Out County Sheriff's Department, Rochester Police Department, the state troopers and the gang wards. And I see a lot of them that are they give out a lot of warnings, which, you know, officers have the latitude to give out a warning or to give a ticket. And because the patrol community is so impacted with with serious injuries and fatalities, I would much rather see them give out tickets to to kind of say, hey. This is serious, you know, instead of them just saying, okay. I'll have it next time. And they're like, oh, I gotta wait with it. And they don't have

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: a lifejack next time either. So it's large number. I mean, it's actually wearing the device, not just having it.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Yeah. I would say as far as wearing goes, I would say definitely less of a half. Yeah.

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: Keep your own casing. Not hate to be extreme but why not just outlaw paddling altogether during those months? Will that be safer? Yeah. Outlying things that people do for recreation, I

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: think would be a problem. Would it create safety? Sure.

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: Yeah. Paddlers are the ones that I mean I don't agree with what I'm saying but I'm just saying if you're looking for total safety because we're all trying to save everybody from evolution so to speak and oh, just it kinda makes sense. If you're if you're gonna go that route, why not just go to suggest to people not to go paddle at all because the water is cold.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Mean just doesn't well Yeah. Probution, I don't think it works in a lot of cases, which we've learned over history. As far as outreach and communications goes, my organization puts out a press release and, social media posts. It'll happen in two weeks, and it's a cold water immersion warning. Just just talked about it a little bit. Noah also does broadcasts about cold water immersion in the spring, and it's it's a commonly referred to topic. But, you know, as we found out earlier this week, people are on the water. This time of year, people who are whitewater kayakers are thrilled because it's not a trickle. There's actually some water moving that they can have some fun on. It is pretty dangerous. This time of year with the snow melt, you've got higher water levels, and that brings any kind of loose trees, branches into the waterway. So all kinds of bad things can happen with that, but they're having the time of their lives. So prohibition is a pretty tough sell. Well, there

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: was a lady a couple weeks ago that drowned on the Memorial River, and I supposedly guess she had a vest on and everything, so must have got overcome with the cold.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: A lot of things can happen. You get upside down on a kayak. They see a tip. Yeah. I've been able to put a real tip. Yeah, I'm not real comfortable in them no matter what time of year it is. As water person and a large person, I'm usually comfortable in most scenarios in the water kayaks. I'm very careful. And then there's the two person kayaks that you can get on. I refer to them as the marriage tester. You can have one really skilled paddler in charge, and then one person who is not very skilled, and that person that doesn't have a lot of experience can really doom both people thusly.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: I'm

[Rep. Candice White]: in support of this, and I would just go back to the dates again. So I think if we are going to have legislation, we need to feel pretty comfortable about the dates, because I think people are going to assume that, okay, May 1, I'm safe not wearing my life vest. If temperatures in May are still in the forties or fifties, maybe it's June 1 to October 1. Because again, I think we are suggesting to the public that you're gonna be safe when we are not legislating that you wear life jackets. So let's make sure that the situations that you took us through, that those aren't happening when we are saying It's okay to not be wearing your lifejacket.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Sure. Wearing a lifejacket is as easy as wearing something like this. This is an inflatable lifejacket. I can wear it here and testify and work my computer and swim fishing pole. And these can be set to manual or automatic. So there's a sensor in there. If it senses water, it will inflate. Or you can pull the handle, and I won't do it because this one's actually just gotta see if the cartridge is in it. So I'm not gonna pass it around. I want I don't want anybody to fail today. It could be a career memory for somebody. But, yeah, I I think personally, I think June 1 makes sense. As far as infrastructure and people on the water, the state police and and Wildlife start patrolling May 15. We go May 15 to about October 15. So there are some more people on the water. There are not wide eyes on the water. I put my boat in personally around the first week of May. I'm a member of a small boat club, so my boat goes from the storage place where it is at a marina to a mooring, and I go ashore. You know, I get in the water and tinker, and I'm not really out going for boat rides that often unless it's a beautiful day. And my boat has an enclosed cabin, so there's some extra safety there. But I think June 1 is not a bad idea.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Representative McCoy or representative Keyser? What are those surrounding states? What are their dates?

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: I don't have them memorized. Most of them are October 1 to May 1. Massachusetts is October 15 to May 15. Things you really need to think about is fresh water versus salt water, warm versus cold. Atlantic Ocean is cold, cold for warm up in the spring.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Yes, it's cold. Yeah, it's

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: not as cold as We talk about Lake Champlain a lot. Lake Champlain today is 37 degrees. Joe's Pond is not 37 degrees today, but the ice is still there. So it's a sliding scale, and we're not just talking about one body of water. We've got hundreds of lakes and ponds throughout the state that people use a lot.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: You know, the land of the ocean, hamster, a mass. It's cold. It is cold. In the summer, it's cold. I call it invigorating. Yes. My ankles freeze. That too.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: This proposed legislation says that open boats, is that That's what I what it says. Okay, so now in those dual kayaks, they are not would be where you fit in and they're closed?

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: No. When they say an open boat, they're talking about anytime you're on an open deck or open space. A boat that's not an open boat would have a cabin to run the boat from to be out of the elements from Big League. It would have sides, would

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: have a roof, it would have

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: a windshield,

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: that sort of thing.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Right. Okay. I guess what I'm envisioning is a dual kayak, and there's a hole in it, this big, each two of them, right? And so it's not open. Right.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Yeah, so the

[Unidentified Committee Member]: interpretation Arguing technicalities. Yeah, and so I mean, though under these, under the wording here, I believe they would not be covered, or it would be

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: a gray area.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Correct. Yeah, and I am not real fond of the open deck language. I think it should be any vessel that's out there, because what what can happen when you're on the water and and size limitations are the similar kind of conversation. When you're on the water, the bigger boat you have, the more safe or, you know, undefeatable you feel sometimes. So you'll go further out onto a lake or body of water. And just like a small boat, you can forget to put the drain plug in. Just like a small boat, somebody can go over to the side. And if it's rough, you have to rescue them in not ideal conditions. So the structure of the boat has nothing to do with, once a person's in the water, what the outcome is. So so I'm I'm very fond of it being all boats and the limitation to length because yeah, once you're out there, anything can go wrong. Representative Casey? Isn't there a

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: law now that we're under a certain size boat that you have to

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: have a life vest anyways? So everyone you have to have a life jacket for every person on board, period. There's no mandatory whereby vessel except for personal watercraft or under 12 years of age. I'm in support of this fear for kids. But

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey]: I mean, don't even feel comfortable going out and telling adults what to do. I mean, people make personal choices all the time that don't always work out. I don't think a big feather is always gonna be there to save everybody. I just, you know, true if it's a poor life choice, let it be the person's poor life choice. But the kids, yeah I agree with kids. Should definitely have them on. I wouldn't recommend a kid going kayaking either during those dangerous times of the year considering people that are experts at it that have all the safety stuff still wind up in a not a good situation.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Yeah, something to always remember is when something goes wrong, first responders are put into the equation, whatever the conditions. So you're introducing risk to those folks as well. As far as mandatory wear for who, when, as an example, Transportation Canada is currently going through an exercise where they're contemplating mandatory wear for everyone all year for recreational boating. It doesn't impact fisheries, like in the Maritimes of the Pacific Northwest. But for recreational boating, they're they're exploring mandatory wear for anybody. Is it a different country? Absolutely. But it's you know, we all wear a seat belt when we get in our car because it's the law, and we've all seen the videos of what happens when somebody gets into an accident without a seat belt. And this is an educational opportunity.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: Is there anything Bert? Yeah, was just gonna say what you said is that it's your personal choice, but you're putting rescue workers at risk. Yeah. And just some of the kind of boneheaded decision making that I've seen. So we have a dog that loves to do trees in the water and, you know, and this Labrador with a big thick coat and just happened to get out there pretty much when the ice goes off, appears to be, not even notice the cold. Anyway, I remember last year, probably coming up on May, I was throwing the things to the dog in the water, and there was a man on a inflatable with an infant strapped to his chest. And I I I stuck around until I saw him wrap up. Yeah. But I could not believe that scene.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Right. And people are what you're talking about these risky times a year that we're talking about. That person happened to be lucky that you were on the shore and had eyes on them. Know it's Scared enough to make sure they made it

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: on shore.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: Yeah. Was a very athletic, fit looking guy, but then I'm sure the lure of the water and all of that on that

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: kind of

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: a day, we had an infant strap, snuggly thing strapped to his chest. Anyway, I became a bit of a convert at that point. Holy smokes.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: The incidence of death with stand up paddleboards is one of the data points that is significantly on the rise, because you get a number of things happening on the water. You get people on a paddleboard without a life jacket, and then you get people on a paddleboard without a life jacket, and the paddleboard doesn't have a leash that's attached to their ankle. And this happens a lot in The Rockies, anecdotally. The water in the the mountain lakes in the Rockies, there, they get above 50 degrees all summer, and there are a lot of state parks that land paddleboards and kayaks and canoes. And people go out, and they don't have a leash, don't have a paddleboard. And as soon as the wind gets in the mountains, it kind of spirals around sometimes and creates some waves. It knocks people off. The water's cold, so they get the shock. Paddleboard is gone. And I get a weekly report from the postcard of all the incidents that are reported throughout the country, and the number of paddleboard fatalities in the in the in the Northwest is is shocking. It really is. And, you know, we see a lot of folks. I've known them Alex Bay a lot. I talked to Steve Pouech who runs the Colchester patrol boat pretty frequently, and he stops all the paddle doors open, and does the educational piece with them because they are at such risk. And it's easy to fall off a paddleboard when a larger boat goes by. Even a couple 100 yards away, that wake will not get an experienced paddling into water.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Representatives in the court. Yeah. So I think, know, I'm in agreement with this. I grew up by the water on Long Island Sound. I've never been in a boat that I didn't have a life jacket. I don't care what time of year life jacket was on, I personally. And I canoe up here with my husband. We always have our life jackets on. But I think the biggest thing is going to be the PR campaign. You hear about occasionally somebody, but it's got to be a PR campaign, like big time. Like I remember seat belts when it first came, and it was like, was a song about buckling up for the seat belt. I think this same thing has to be, I mean, see paddleboarders and kayakers all the time on weights that do not have, I don't understand why they don't have a light vest. Why don't you have a flotation device? Chances are you're going home, especially in the wake of the boat. I just don't understand. So I think it's got to be a massive PR campaign.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Yeah. Through our work with the Water Safety Action Committee, Jess and I, one of our initiatives this year is recruiting new members. I recently got the lead from state parks, a gentleman who runs the Burton Island State Park, and that whole region is the lead for water safety. And the state parks are a good opportunity for educational opportunities because they have so many on the water sites. They have activities, kayaks and paddle boards. They have overhands, extra marriages. They're a prime candidate. And the other person that recently joined this month was the operations director from the Vermont River Conservancy. They have a good reparation I mean, relationship with the panel of the committee. So through this water safety action committee, because we're a small state, that is that amplification opportunity that we have to us. So if if we create messaging, we all share it. We all cross post it on social media and that sort of thing. We're kind of meeting with the most people where they're at, because a lot of the groups that I belong to online where I cross post things are, like, Champlain Boaters and all the people who we're trying to get who are water. So that opportunity is ripe and it's available to us, and I think we need to be diligent in our efforts for sure. Any more questions?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: If not, thank you very much, Alan,

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: for the help. Thank you all. Thank you very

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: much. We

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: need to talk about section 20 briefly,

[Unidentified Committee Member]: if you'd like to add some

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: comments on that, sure. Yeah, it's just our language cleanup exercise. That seems to my direct compliance better or

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: Is that a way of validation stickers?

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Yeah, it's the validation sticker language. This was from a corrective action plan item that that we are under from the Coast Guard for our vessel numbering program. And the easiest way to do it is look at some visuals here, two of these in the slide. On the top of this page, this is our handbook of voting laws. It shows how you're supposed to put the numbers on. And the Coast Guard wants us to specify that the the validation sticker is within six inches of the letters and numbers. And on the on the port side, it's the to the bow side or the left side of the numbers. On the starboard side, it's to the right. If you can't remember port from starboard, remember The port left. And if you have trouble with the lights, port line is red, and that's the left running light on your book, too. And red ray returning, that's for the boots. I'm not a cat.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Totally. It ain't completely single at all.

[Rep. Candice White]: Thank you all. Yeah. So this language says validation stickers shall be placed within six inches preceding the registration number. So it's not showing That's

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: on the port side. Oh, on

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: the port side, okay.

[Al Johnson (Boating Administrator, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: And it's after the number on the starboard side. But the six inch piece was missing, and the coast guard was being particular, I guess, to the interview.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Essentially, we're doing that now.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: Yes. We're just cleaning that up. Sure. Alright. Thank you all.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Thank you.

[Rep. Matt Walker, Chair]: So we're this after four. We're coming back.