Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Good morning. It is Wednesday, April 8. This is the House Transportation Committee. This morning, we're gonna sort of pivot from our current DMV miscellaneous bill that we've been working on the last week or so, and we're gonna

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: be taking

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: up by a member's request of Vermonters for a Clean Environment. We have the Director of Community and Environmental Health Director for Vermonters for a Clean Environment. And Alison, if you want to join us and just state your name for the record, and it's all yours. Perfect, thank you.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: So Alison, that's Cathy. And as was mentioned, Vermonters for a Clean Environment, Community and Environmental Health Director. And thank you for having me. I know I've tried to get in, but you guys have been super busy on the floor with lots happening. So I think this is our fourth try. So thank you. And also, thank you for your work. I know you guys are tackling a lot. I'm also Danville Planning Commission Chair, so I appreciate what you guys are trying to make happen here. Thank you very much. I think that's a lot. I don't know if people know Brahmanis for a clean environment, but they're gonna let me go. Okay, maybe it's not. It was working, sorry. It's up there, but it's not letting me sort of- Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I have to press Okay. I have to agree to Sorry, Gabrielle. Oh, I got it. I'm I It's working. Okay, sorry. Me and tech, not my greatest friend. Okay, so just to give you guys an intro for who we are, Vermonters for Clean Environment, grassroots organization, nonprofit. We believe Vermonters economic health depends on its environmental health. And we know that the attention's here, so we're always trying to help strike that balance for Vermonters. 1999, we've been working very closely with towns in Vermonters, especially in responsible commercial development and how that impacts our communities, the environment and the state as well. And then our mission, just to give you guys a background in case you're not aware, Vermonters for a Clean Environment advocates for the well-being of all Vermonters, driving for protection of the natural world, land, air, water, wildlife people, especially this web of life I know we all care about. You guys are obviously here for that reason. We unite to pursue common goals of encouraging economic development with minimal environmental impacts and preserving Vermont's natural beauty. So these are our goals. This is what we've been working towards since 1999. And I just wanna put a few things in perspective. I think a lot of times I've been in the state house for several years now. And one of the things I see is not a lot of recognition for what we already do. We're always sort of striving for goals of we have to do this, we have to do this. There's always sort of a crisis crunch that comes in, but I think it's important to sort of look back and just see where we're at. So we use less total energy than residents of any other state in the nation. Total energy consumption per capita is among the lowest five states. State has lowest energy related carbon dioxide emissions of any state in the nation. So keeping that in mind. And then also why do we have these emissions? We have it for necessities. So heat for driving. I live in the Northeast Kingdom, very rural. My husband is a builder. He has to drive a truck. He has to haul plywood in two by fours and all of those pieces. So just trying to keep in mind our goals with the reality of people on the ground is what we're looking at.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Excuse me. Oh, Somebody

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: wanna ask questions.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Oh, absolutely. Yes.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. The second statement state has the lowest energy related carbon dioxide emissions. Is that per capita?

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: So that is total period. Just total. Yes, if you look at per capita, Energy Action Network often looks per capita. We obviously have a lower amount population wise in state and we're a full rural state. So we need that heat and we also need to often drive for jobs. So there's a lot of times this debate of how is the best way to look at it. But when you look at overall emissions, we are the lowest. If you start to break it into per capita, we're the lowest in New England, but you could sort of take it that way.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Higher than New York City

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: because- Exactly, exactly. And also, to me, I go back to, and what we, Vermonters for a Clean Environment, always go back to is why do we have these emissions? What are we looking at? And again, it's cars, it's heat, those necessities that we can't get rid of. And then the other thing I just wanted to put out there, and I think people are well aware, I have a science background, the mycelium network. So you talk about the mycelium network in the forest soils and obviously massive carbon sequestration. So this was something when I studied during soil science, it's a huge carbon sink. And I think all of you guys know this, not to be repetitive, but 78% of the state forested. 4,600,000 acres doing incredible carbon sequestering. So not only being the lowest in greenhouse gas emissions, but also this carbon sequestering that we have. So then it's just trying to look at where are our priorities on that and what can we do, what should we do? The other thing I wanted to just shine light on is what we are also already doing with Efficiency Vermont. I think you guys are all well aware, especially if you pay an electric bill every year or every month. We pay into Efficiency Vermont, which is obviously designed to help with, as you guys can see, reducing electricity consumption and greenhouse gas emissions. So we spend, I think usually Efficiency Vermont gets in and around $50,000,000 a year from rate payers. And I would also say that, especially in the kingdom, you see that some people don't want help from the state. No offense, you guys are in here trying to do good work for everybody. But some of them are like, No, I'm just gonna try my best. I'm gonna do my thing. Still in the Northeast Kingdom, you literally have people in their walls who will stuff their walls with old blankets, newspapers, jeans, because they're in that mindset of independence, we don't want the help. And then I think other people, it's access. Sometimes it's hard for them to access, wait, who is Efficiency Vermont and what do they do and how do I get in there and try to get some of the support that they might offer that would help me in cost and energy consumption. So just keeping some of that in mind. And a lot of people have recently been calling for an audit of Efficiency Vermont, mostly just to look at how much of this give or take $50,000,000 a year is actually getting to the people. So trying to figure out how much is getting caught up, how much is getting to the people and how are they communicating with Vermonters to make sure that Vermonters know these programs are there. But I think there's just conversation around that with Department of Public Service right now. I think they're up for a review next year in my understanding. The other thing I just wanna shine light on, because again, I feel like Vermont is such a leader and is doing a lot of good work is the weatherization and their source documents for all of this if people wanna dive in deeper. But over 38,000 homes and apartments across the state have been weatherized between 02/2023. So making a lot of progress there with again, and to me, that's such a direct most important place where you make the progress, because you're obviously reducing consumption and you're also helping with affordability directly to Vermonters, which I think is really key, obviously. So just, oh yeah.

[Kenneth "Ken" Wells (Member)]: Representative Wells. How do you qualify for that? Or is that weatherization paid for by customers?

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: So the Office of Economic Opportunity is typically one of the big ones that runs this program. And then we have 2¢ that we pay on our heating fuel that goes into this fund. And qualifying is based on my understanding, and you can check this with Office of Economic Opportunity, is the situation that you're in and how bad the house is, as well as your income. So the economic aspect as well as I think all of those factors are being addressed in there. Yeah. Rosanna Burke.

[Candice White (Member)]: Yeah. Thank you for all this.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: This is super helpful and interesting.

[Candice White (Member)]: And I just wanna comment, weatherization is a super important program. I think we get some federal funding for that. We have state funding. Efficiency Vermont does some really good things. But I will continue to say,

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: I think it is so hard for

[Candice White (Member)]: the public to access this information. And weatherization, that should be on the Efficiency Vermont page. There should

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: be one place to go so that the remote can see. We don't

[Candice White (Member)]: have to I care a lot if this is something that I care about. So I know to go to the Officials Equal Motte page, who aren't as enthusiastic, I just think it's really hard to access still. So I just wanna And make that not to you personally,

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: but No, just how appreciate that because that's what I see in my community. And we have certain places like, again, in St. Johnsbury, there's an actual physical place that someone can go to. I have a nutrition practice and in my practice, I work with a lot of elders and they don't have phones and they don't have internet and they're not gonna be searching around for that here. And I think you see that across the board, in my opinion, with agency collaboration. We see it in the permitting process. We see it in this processes. And to me, that would be such a high priority of making sure all of these agencies and groups offering this are working together and getting it out there. So thank you. Because again, that's the direct hypermonitor impact versus the like, we're up here. Who's it getting to? So thank you. And then just as a reminder, I know everybody's well aware of this, the Global Warming Solutions Act, we're looking at the emission reductions. And Remodels for a Clean Environment has held a lot of concern around this as requirements and the fact that we can be sued as a state. And is that the best place for us to be putting our resources when we already have the lowest emissions? We're already doing a lot of other things to help. And we're talking about our emissions coming from these sectors that are of necessity at this point. So we have struggled with this being not an aspiration or a goal, but a requirement and seeing some of the glitches along the way there. So just pointing that out because Oh yes, I'm sorry.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Global Warming Solutions, if I look at it, there's the emissions piece, the carbon dioxide emissions. There's also the affordability piece where pulling people off of volatile cost fossil fuels to other sources is a good goal.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Yes. And then it's just, I think along the way, what damage is possibly happening? And I think one of the economists who I was listening talk about some of this drive is, are we gonna burn the village down to get to that goal? So what are the impacts along the way? Obviously thinking about the clean heat standard and what the Public Utility Commission came back and said, this isn't the right fit for Vermont. This is right for fraud. Obviously this is gonna have an undue adverse effect on Vermonters financially. So I know you guys are the ones in here, thank you, trying to strike these balances between helping and thinking ahead and what are the immediate effects that Vermonters are gonna feel. And again, coming from rural or kingdom area, feel I see a lot of the concerns around raising the cost of fuel, raising the cost of heat and the immediate effects that's gonna have, even though the intention is a good intention in the longer term. And I guess the only other thing I would just say on that is we at Vermont is for a Clean Environment, do a lot of work with solar projects, any sort of energy generation projects. Also trying to look at data centers and just all of the impacts here. But the one thing I would say, we watch the Public Utility Commission closely, and the rates coming in from all of the utilities are always like this. I understand 100% the volatility in the fossil fuel. Look at where we're at right now. I mean, it's a nightmare to fill up. But I would also say that the electric rates are always going like this and more and more. So there is volatility, so to speak, on both ends. I know that there's ideas to try to get a handle on the fact that it's going up like that, but costs in all directions are going up. So what the best answer is, I don't know, but electricity is also on the rise. Representative Bourbon and representative.

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: Yeah, I guess regarding the Clean Heating Center, I don't think anybody's talking about that anymore. Oh yeah, no. That's once we realized that the cost, it was opportunity to look at the cost and see whether it would be doable. And so I realized that I think that that's not a factor.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Right, I don't think so after the analysis. But I would also say has been concern of the greenhouse gas inventory that had passed the floor and is in the Senate now. And this is just what we've been watching and what that data might be used for to try to put in another clean heat standard or cap and invest program. And the climate council still has these conversations. Yeah,

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: regarding cap and invest program, and we've been looking at that, looked at the Western Climate Initiative, was only expensive. Looked at New York, he's not ready, but there's so much continuing conversations about And if you look at R. D. The group, she's been very successful and brought money into Vermont as a model for a possible happen address program. So I think that the opportunity is still there to explore whether that could be good for Vermont. I don't think it should be dismissed.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: No, and that's obviously the work that you guys are doing with trying to weigh all the tensions and long term goals with the immediate impact. So it's not an easy conversation. So thank you. I definitely appreciate that. Representative Noelle?

[Unidentified Committee Member (name unclear; addressed as 'Representative Noelle')]: Yeah, so thank you for coming and talking to us this morning. Guess I'm listening to this and I'm wondering two things. What does from your perspective, what does a more balanced approach look like? And what does what are the what is the path that sort of transition pathways to something that is, provides more access to the options that renewables provide. Because I think the long term trajectory is sort of barking in that direction. And we want to make sure it's very interesting to hear that folks in your area, the lived experiences you said are feeling there's just a lot of friction to getting information about this, funding for this, all of those things. I'm just wondering what could we be doing better basically? Yeah, I know,

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: I think that that's an awesome question. And I wish I had an easy straightforward answer of like, here it is. I know that's what you guys are here trying to I sort think that I would say my opinion, and this is where I just come back to you for what it's worth, is just trying to respect and honor that everybody is in a really, their own independent, unique situation from an economic standpoint, and most are trying their best. And we don't know what people's financial situations are, what sort of healthcare costs they might be paying, what sort of debt that they have, and just trying to respect that everybody is trying their best. So when we add things on top, when we add sort of more of a financial burden, it's just, it's crushing. I think there's so many people. I will also say I have thousands of students I teach at the Vermont State College. I have hundreds at a time, nutrition clients that I work with. So I'm hearing from people all the time about the struggles economically. And I think that that's where people want the support of things like weatherization and things like efficiency Vermont, if they want it and they're aware. But the economics, most people are living paycheck to paycheck. So I think when you start to talk about adding costs for necessities, that's where it gets difficult. Yes. Thank you. And then this goes back to the representative Gray, I think, who you've maybe mentioned, and you guys are well aware of this, but I just wanted to point out that the Global Warming Solutions Act and the Climate Council are obviously driving these programs with the intent of trying to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. And we have seen, as you obviously pointed out with the treasurer's analysis of the cap and invest program, and also the public utility commission's analysis of the clean heat standard, that these would have undue adverse effects on Vermonters. So it's somewhat difficult when you hear the climate council keep coming back and pushing cap and invest, cap and invest when you clearly had said right now, we're not in the position to do it and you guys are keeping an eye. And one of the biggest things I think that we've sort of keyed into with Vermonters for a Clean Environment on the Global Warming Solutions Act is that the programs have to be technologically feasible, cost effective and equitable. And striking that has obviously been the problem. And then in the meantime, it's the lawsuit pressure that's concerning because a lot of resources go into that as well when those resources could go into Vermonters. So I think just some of the honest tensions around this whole subject. And I'm not gonna read through this. You guys are well aware you did a deep dive into the cap and invest program, but obviously seeing that there's not right now a feasible methodology to figure this program out as you obviously brought to the table here. And then just the quotes from that analysis that I thought were important, not every household will be able to adjust their fuel expenditures or will receive subsidies, especially in the early years of the program. And I don't think we wanna drive people out of the state. Such households will see their energy expenditures rise as a result of the policy. Fortunately, technologies are improving all the time, and hopefully there'll continue to be more access and affordability around those technologies for people in the lower income bracket. This is the Sawyer Case Family Study. I don't need to go through it, but it's a classic example in the Northeast Kingdom of how something like the cap and invest program would really take an economic hit to them. That was in the treasurer's technical analysis as well. So again, just a summary on that and the economic impact it would have. And then this was just sort of the last piece, the wrap up from that, I think was really important. Vermont is a rural cold climate state with some of the oldest housing stock in the country, leading to above average per capita energy costs. Many Vermonters, particularly in rural counties, cannot choose to drive the most fuel efficient cars available given the seasonal conditions of their roads. I'm a classic example of that. And whatever vehicle Vermonter drives, whether diesel, gas, hybrid or electric, is substantially less efficient due to cold snow and other conditions. We live at 1,800 feet elevation. It's not really maintained. It's right next to a class four. So we definitely need good all wheel drive or four wheel drive cars to get up there. And I've never owned a new car. So I'm not gonna be able to take on the payment for something like a hybrid or an electric at this time. And then the other last thing I just, or not last thing, but I guess the next piece is just that we do spend a lot. This was from Julie Moore, Agency of Natural Resources, fiscal year twenty five Climate Action Funding. I'm looking at that number $524,000,000. And to me, that's a lot of money that I think ideally would be great to get directly to Vermonters. Although I understand what the intention is and the planning that you're trying to do to help in the long term, that's a lot of houses weatherized and a lot more efficient appliances, just when you look at allocation of funds. And then this is a real big bother to me. Annette Smith, executive director of Vermonters for a Clean Environment, who started the organization in 1999, she is fiercely into, like myself, especially from my nutrition background, into corporate accountability. And this drives me bonkers. And I think also gets to the heart of some of the fraudulent carbon credit market. This is what the Public Utility Commission brought forward with the clean heat standard was that it was ripe for fraud because of the carbon credits. So you look at Tesla as an example, 2024, their revenue stream dropped, but their regulatory credits, their clean car credits, carbon credits, 54% jump from 2023. So making a ton of money producing a car, but then somebody who can't use or afford that car, if they have to buy a car that uses gas, but there's a regulation in place where the maker has to offset the fact that they just sold a gas car, right? And they've gotta buy these. You guys know it well. You heard I was in here last year when you were listening to New York and Massachusetts and the advanced clean truck issues that were going on. So this is sort of that, in my opinion, scam that really hurts our businesses and really increases profits of somebody like Tesla, which is, I think, struggle to see. So in the fourth quarter twenty twenty four alone, Tesla earned, I mean, look at that, I'm sorry, $692,000,000 from selling regulatory credits as carbon credits, accounting for nearly 30% of its quarterly net income of 2,330,000,000.00. This substantial boost underscored the ongoing demand for emission credits as the legacy automakers struggle to meet regulatory targets. And I think this is a struggle because not everybody can go to these electric cars. So what are we doing? We're crushing a lot of our automobile industry. And ultimately that's raising the costs for everybody who's trying to buy cars. Senator Becca White was at the Caledonia County Fair this past summer, and I was doing a booth there and she works for Sun Common. So she was doing a booth there. We were right there, and we were just having a bunch of conversations about all this stuff, because we both could talk about it all day long. Some people can't, but we're like, blah blah blah. And so I pointed out to the parking lot, Caledonia County, Northeast Kingdom, and I was like, Do you see all the trucks up there? It's not just because people like big trucks. It's because they are carpenters and they're plumbers and they're electricians and they're hauling stone and they're hauling wood and they need that for their work. So to raise the cost of fuel, to raise the cost of cars, when the technology isn't there for the electric vehicles in that regard, that's a real struggle. And that's where I think some of the upset and the anger comes from when people hear, Wait, what are you doing? We can't do that. We can't make that shift. So there's no way that my family would be able to afford an electric truck for my husband to do his job. He's got a 2013 Toyota Tundra. Phil, I'm sorry, yes? Yeah.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: What part of this is raising the cost of fuel for the-

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: I just meant in thinking about like a cap and invest program, like thinking about a cap and trade or cap and invest, if we were to go down that road, market around carbon credits, especially for Tesla, obviously.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Other obsession, Thomas?

[Representative Thompson (Committee Member, first name unknown)]: So this isn't responding to something that we're

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: your legislative action. And so it's, what is the path? And obviously that's for you guys to determine as you hear the recommendations. And I just wanted to make sure that we're bringing forward what these impacts could look like and how hard raising costs on these basic necessities is gonna be for many Vermonters.

[Representative Thompson (Committee Member, first name unknown)]: Yeah, and obviously that would be a huge concern and a big topic of conversation. And that's why that was included in the investment report that you were citing. Exactly.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Representative Burke?

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: Getting back to a previous slide about climate action funding, are you you know, we have this resilience implementation strategy going on, there's a lot of mitigation work going on in the absence of, you know, we foster incentives for electric vehicles and things like that. Are you opposed to those programs, your resilience and mitigation programs? I'm definitely not opposed to them.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: I think as long as they are supportive and people are aware and can access them, and they're not gonna be an undue burden on Vermonters, as I'm sure you guys are looking out for. But over the past few years with the implementation of the Global Warming Solutions Act and the Climate Council and the recommendations coming from them, there's been a lot of concern on those programs because we need heat and fuel to live. And that's what I'm just bringing to you guys from our work and what we are focused on with both environment and economics.

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: And I just want to point out that one of the programs that we had, the Mollie S. A. T program, it was very successful in giving very low income people the ability to buy fuel efficient cars,

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: and that was run out of a Capstone Community of Change. Yes. They had those incentives and they really, really made a difference in Yeah, those no,

[Representative Thompson (Committee Member, first name unknown)]: and that's a big I

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: think one of the incentives of people wanting to cut clean house gas is also to make transportation, for example, more affordable. And I think one of the concerns that often comes up, because I definitely appreciate the thought, especially when you're talking about low income, is who can take advantage of some of the subsidies and the programs. And a lot of times it still is the low income. In that case, they did a great job, but I've met a lot of times it is the low income people who just don't have that money or even that percentage they're responsible for in a subsidy or program to take advantage of it. And so it's who ends up being served. And I know these are things you guys think about, but it's just wanting to continue to keep an eye on it.

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: I think particularly the Mollie S. M. Program is very specific about that. And there's help from Capstone to help people access.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Definitely. They do a good job for sure. So just a little bit more on Tesla and just talking about the carbon credit piece and how a significant portion of their income at this point is coming from them, while other automakers providing vehicles that are necessary at this time are taking a hit and that's increasing costs for all of us attempting to buy cars. And then the other part that I wanna get into, and this is dear to our heart, because Vermonters for Cleaning Environment is one of the few environmental groups that is actually involved with mining and quarries in Vermont. And we heavily involved in this. There's, in Morrisville, there's a situation going on with the quarry in the industrial park where they found pure quartz. So they've been concerned about silica and silicosis. Act two fifty is involved trying to help with that right now. But just in thinking about this aspect with cars is also a struggle. So I think you guys are probably well aware, but the Congressional Executive Commission on China, this was a bipartisan congressional group that had come together about child labor and forced labor, specifically in The Congo, as I think people are pretty well aware. But cobalt, lithium and copper are all necessary for electric vehicles and electrification. And a lot of times the global south is really who takes the hit, or countries like China who do not have good regulations on human rights and environmental rights. So there's a lot of social and environmental injustice that I think you guys are, I'm sure, well aware of. But around 70% of the world's cobalt supply comes from the DRC, Democratic Republic Of Congo, and 41% of all batteries containing cobalt are imported from The People's Republic Of China. Miners working on safe work sites, reliance on child and forced Congolese labor, as well as environmental degradation are rampant. The US Department of Labor estimates that at least 25,000 children are working in cobalt mines in the DRC. So just shining light on the environmental and social injustice that goes on as a lot of countries, whatever you wanna call them, developed countries, first world countries, try to move towards these goals and thinking about where are these minerals and the necessities, these resources coming from. And I think we all know there's always been an ancient battle for resources and land, and that continues today as well. Chris Smith, he was one of the co chairs of this executive commission on China. The biggest beneficiaries of this cobalt continue to remain silent and refuse to face this uncomfortable truth. From dirt to battery, from cobalt to cars, the entire system is fueled by violence, cruelty and corruption. By ignoring these rights and by treating people, including children, as expendable, China is committing gross violations of human rights and is seeking to rewrite the international order, all while controlling the supply chains of this critical metal cobalt. The United States has been asleep at the wheel for far too long, and China has taken advantage of that. We need to provide alternative options, options that champion transparency, human rights, peace, and prosperity for all. And I'm sorry, I do just feel it's important to read the co chair quote, Jeff Merkley. He was also on the commission. Chinese companies and the Chinese government directly profit from forced and child labor used to mine these minerals, extending their abusive practices across continents. They supply American companies that produce products that we use every day. American consumers deserve to be protected from becoming unwitting and unwilling accomplices in these abuses. Both the executive branch and Congress have important roles to play to reduce and eliminate labor and other human rights abuses in the Congo mining operations. Addressing these issues is an opportunity for The US to lead the world in clean, sustainable energy and in human rights. And yeah, I think it's just important for us to be really aware that this is going on. As a nutritionist, I'm used to working with equal exchange chocolate, fair trade chocolate and sugar and bananas and coffee. And all of these things we try to get done right in the global South where a lot of people in the environment are taken advantage of. And the same goes for a lot of these minerals that are required for this entire electrification plan. There's not a bunch.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Can you name other products that use cobalt?

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Phones, laptops, the stuff that we're dependent on, I know. Space. Exactly, 100%. Yes, I'm very well aware it's not just the cars, but it's just, again, this entire plan to move forward with electrification. It's important for us to be aware, cobalt, lithium, copper, these are all playing in. But you're right, we're all dependent on it at this time. And to me, that's why I bring up the fair trade equal exchange. Again, as a nutritionist, it's like, I love equal exchange chocolate, as an example. So it's, couldn't we do that right? Could we work on the supply chain? And I know that's not something to be solved here, but I just wanna make sure there's awareness on that. And Department of Labor, for the first time in decades, progress towards eliminating child labor had reversed and the number of children working in conditions of child labor has increased. This is impacting thousands of children in Africa, especially the Democratic Republic Of Congo. And I think there's more and more awareness. CBSN has done reports on this, especially the artisanal mines. You think of artisanal cheese in Vermont and we feel good about it. It's like, Oh, I'm supporting a good small farm doing cheese. But the smaller mines many places in Africa, this is where the most abuses are. And this is where there's also deaths of children doing this process. Apple and Google were named in a US lawsuit over child cobalt mining deaths. That was in The Guardian from a few years back. Tesla, Apple, Google, Dell, Microsoft. Amnesty International did a lot of work to bring awareness around that as well. And then Cobalt Red, you guys are probably well aware. He won the finalists for Pulitzer Prize. Unflinching Investigation Reveals Human Rights Abuses Behind The Congo's Cobalt Mining Operation and the moral implications that affect us all. That was a really disturbing read. But you guys know that's how it works. Investigative journalism brings it through and we have awareness. And then you guys obviously just trying to determine where to go with policy. You have the hard work, so thank you.

[Timothy R. Corcoran II (Vice Chair)]: Morning, Representative Tomlinson. My apologies.

[Representative Thompson (Committee Member, first name unknown)]: You made it safe. Thanks for sharing this information. It's certainly a concern, and I've personally spent time in the DRC and other areas of Africa, so I'm pretty aware of these supply chain issues. I have heard some really encouraging things about work being done to improve supply chain, increase transparency, address these concerns. But I'm curious, too, about if you have any information on labor exploitation, environmental impact of the fossil fuel industry. There's a lot of information Oh, 100%. I haven't seen as much in terms of improvement of supply chain or addressing those concerns on that side. That's a much bigger.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Yeah. I know, and that's a huge part. And to me, think we're all well aware of that. I think that most people have a lot of knowledge around the issues that occur in that industry. And the other thing I would say is they're much more heavily regulated because they've been in for a long time, not that abuses don't occur and all of those pieces. To me, it's just coming in from the space of thinking about the Global Warming Solutions Act, like I said, and the policy that it drives and what you guys as legislators wanna do around that with these pieces in mind. How much do you wanna mandate? How much do you want to raise costs to incentivize a certain path? I would struggle to buy an electric car right now. If it was like, okay, we did start to finish supply chain and it was like a fair trade, then I might be okay with that. But we always buy used cars and yes, I'm doing the fossil fuel thing. It's like, I don't think there's what is the answer there? But that's where I'd go back to what I had just shared, at least in my opinion, is just trying to respect where people's situations are from economics and what's on their plate and what they can afford. So for what it's worth, yeah, thank you. Representative White?

[Candice White (Member)]: No, thank you. It's really important to bring up

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: these. There are a

[Candice White (Member)]: lot of concerns regarding batteries, so it's helpful to have the detail on that. But I also would agree with Representative Tomlinson. Think, while we all have been so accustomed to gas and propane, but I think it would be helpful in the context of this to also just remind people of some of the impacts of gas and propane and the oil spills, the drilling, the proliferation of wealth at the top. We are weighing a bad policy with maybe a less bad policy, not sure, but there are abuses on both sides.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: 100%. And I would also say that in all reality, the people who own the 1% or so that own the fossil fuel industry, they're also the ones that own the solar electrification. So when you sort of go back, you're at the same place of these are just different technologies. And that's where it's like, there's efficiencies and there's improvements and technological movement in the right direction in both regards. And so do you try to just lock into one or the other, or do you try to allow someone to make the decision of what is gonna work best for my family? This is what I need. Like I said, my husband's truck, this is what I have access I couldn't do that electric truck. And I don't know how many pounds extra the batteries weigh. You guys went through that in your advanced clean truck stuff last time. But no, it's both sides of the story. And what is the best answer? We could all walk. Thank you. Thank It's Bert here. Great.

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: I just wanna say, I mean, this is going to have the issue of public transit. Yeah. Yeah. And hopefully had the money to create a better system for rural people. We felt that the microtransit was a good sort of solution for both some teleprojects in microtransit, you could have a central location where people could go, you're not gonna get everybody to the last mile.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Right, right. The rural community transport in the Northeast Kingdom is, is amazing. Mean, what it does and what it offers people in our area is really huge. But then there's also a lot of people who are fully independent. I'm not taking that I need to drive or I gotta get to my job.

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: That's the other problem. Sometimes people are like, Well, I don't know if I got the different people.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: They want their space in So the there is that issue. Yes, the independence factor.

[Kenneth "Ken" Wells (Member)]: Represent Willis. A couple of good points you made, Alison, here, when you talk about those carbon tax scams and stuff like this, and I think we're learning more and more about the windmills all built in China, they're replaced every ten years, the rate of electricity is higher, they only run 30% of the time, somebody's making money off them. And so they've ruined our ridgelines for those ineffective

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Yeah, talk to the people in law. Yeah.

[Kenneth "Ken" Wells (Member)]: Desperate, desperate move to try and save the planet all at once. Know, climate's a big panic all done. Right. Now solar fields, we're just eating up thousands of acres of farmland. Yes. So I imagine next we'll bring billboards back to Vermont. Somebody can make money off those too. Put

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: it in their pay money.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Yeah, yeah. That's good.

[Kenneth "Ken" Wells (Member)]: And then of course it's always amusing with the California Clean Air Act and we're getting out of at this point stuff. A state that creates more pollution than anybody probably globally, just not being able to control those millions and millions of acres of fires every year. They can't even control their own problem, which creates way more pollution than these cars and everything else. And yet we'll jump in bed with them and try and adhere to their policies.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: And that's where I would always come back to, I mean, you all know, you guys represent Vermonters. It's Vermont is so unique to me. It's what is the best Vermont plan? And that's where I wanted to start with talking about efficiency Vermont and the weatherization, because I feel like what will work here is gonna be very different. And I hope that we can focus on the Vermont solutions versus what they're doing in other places that just don't make sense for where we are here. And the other thing I would just say, if you don't mind me adding, because this is a big one for Vermont for a clean environment, is the industrial solar coming to our farms and forests. And again, a lot of that is about, we talked about the scam with the carbon credits in Tesla, it's about renewable energy credits. So a lot of times you've got industrial solar that comes here and then they sell the renewable energy credits to Connecticut. So Connecticut can go, look, we have renewable energy, because we've got a little farm in Vermont. We're not a big little farmer.

[Kenneth "Ken" Wells (Member)]: We have a little farm standard instead of jumping in, but not

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Like to serve Vermont for ourselves. Have our own standard. The Vermont standard. That would be great. Nice.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: I get behind that. Yeah,

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: I just wanted a relation to virus in California. I don't really think it's a lot of climate change. The drought, the unbelievable sort of erratic weather that's causing the group that. I mean I think that they are trying to address some projects that are using the understory to, it won't keep burning, but I think it's also, this is the world we're living in. Yeah. Sliding in my pillar, you know, is the issue that we need to get our hands around, and I personally do not feel that it's being

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: We need to address it in many, many multiple ways. I think you'll appreciate the last slide that I have with a quote from June Tierney on that note. So obviously I was talking about cobalt, but I just also wanted to say the lithium triangle is one in particular that Chile, Argentina, Bolivia referred to as the Lithium Triangle. They hold more than 75% of the world's supply of lithium beneath their salt flats. And this goes back to the energy storage system, the portable electronics that was raised with our computers and our phones, everything dependent on this. But I also wanted to point out, so Bolivia has the world's largest salt flat. Spans It 4,000 square miles. Beneath this natural wonder are massive lithium deposits, composing 50% of the earth's total. And just to point out with this lithium extraction, 500,000 gallons of water per ton of lithium used. And this is where you're getting into a really big hit to local farmers and indigenous communities in this area. There was an article, this is the Yale article, Why the Rush to Mine Lithium Could Dry Up the High Andes. And again, everything is documented in there if you want more information. And this is just a picture of the brine pools in Northern Chile for lithium. So it takes a lot of land space, it takes a lot of land water. And I just had a quote from an article I had written, Saving the planet should not come at the cost of destroying fragile ecosystems. Lithium mining cannot be considered a long term or just solution if it contributes to water depletion and air pollution, which have severe and disparate impacts for local communities already struggling to make ends meet. And as you can imagine, as in many places in the global South, in South America, there are not good regulations at all around human rights and environmental impacts. And water is being contaminated. They've identified 66 different pollutants in water through this lithium mining that is going on, and also in the copper mining in Chile. So there's tremendous pollution in the waters, as well as in the air around schools that they've tested. And there's also the farmers who are struggling because of the use of water and the loss of water for their agricultural practices. So really big impacts.

[Timothy R. Corcoran II (Vice Chair)]: Representative Pouech?

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: A couple of questions. I'll just point out that we do have high incidence of cancer around fossil fuels.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: I was thinking that as I said it, 100%, it's both ways.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Yes, good reminder. Or Vermonters for Clean Environment, What is your stand on climate change? Do you believe in it or not? Number two, how should Vermonters generate electricity? What's the best recommendation? Right,

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: So obviously the climate is changing a 100% and we have to be able to adapt to that and their whole resiliency plan of how we go about it. That's why I have had June Tierney, who was part of the climate council and the commissioner of, what we have here, Department of Public Service. She had a wonderful quote when she left the Climate Council that I think sheds light on this, and I have it in here, so I'll wait till I get there. And for monitoring a clean environment is really into decreasing consumption. So we don't have a stand on nuclear. I would refer to our executive director, Annette Smith, on that one. We've had a lot of concerns about how you get rid of the waste that comes with it, especially with Yankee when that was all going on. But I think our biggest goal is reduce consumption, which is a focus on expanding technologies and efficiency. So there's a lot of technologies that are coming out all the time for our cars, for our way that we heat.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: I think that just- Technologies like?

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Just thinking of like fuel efficiency when you're talking about cars. And even when you guys did advanced clean truck and they were talking about how a new diesel uses like 60% less diesel than it used to. Yes, it'd be great to get rid of diesel, but again, what's technologically feasible? And that's why I think it is important that the Global Warming Solutions Act had cost effective, technologically feasible and equitable. And part of me wonders, how do you reach all those? That's what the tension's of it all. So yeah, hopefully that answers.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Well, I was asking, best way to generate electricity for Vermonters?

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Well, I would say personally, I'd love it if every single Vermonter could have solar panels at their house. Would love that. That's gonna happen. That's not gonna happen right now. I know. So I think that that's where you need diversification and you need efficiency. Need to diverse, because you have to talk about baseload power. So it's tricky when you look at what's happening with the renewable energy standard. And TJ Poor from Department of Public Service has repeatedly pointed out, we still need baseload power. And so what are we doing? We're gonna ask Vermonters to pay more for renewable energy credits to hide or cover the fact that we still need a baseload power like nuclear, for example. So that's just gonna end up costing more. It just raises the costs of electricity. And it's sort of a denial of reality of right now, renewables are not offering baseload power. And there's concerns, I mean, a lot of communities are starting to have concerns around the battery storage going on and from a fire safety standpoint and how expensive is it, how many houses is it gonna work for and for how long. So it's like the realities of And this is where I think that diversification, we've got the cleanest electricity profile any state right now, because we count Hydro Quebec as renewable, which we're the only state to do that. But then when you start adding other costs, you have land impacts, but then you also have, the solar could be twice as much compared to what we're getting from Hydro Quebec easily, unless it's even more, like in a standard offer project where you could be up at 20¢ compared to 4¢ through hydrocollback. So I know we're sort of off topic there, but I think we have a very clean electricity profile. From a heat standpoint, it's a different ballgame. But then you get into the heat pumps and how much that raises electricity. My son is a young married family and they're struggling because they've got a heat pump with the cost when it works or not. So these are all the realities. And that's where I think you come down to, there's never gonna be that one solution for every home and every family. And we just need to make sure there's access, in my opinion, to the options so people can try to choose between them and figure out what's gonna work. That's where I just would say that difference, to try to go one path, one way for everyone, that's where I think we get into trouble because there are so many different scenarios. Hopefully that helps. Representative Wolff?

[Kenneth "Ken" Wells (Member)]: You were mentioning, Alison, that we spent $524,000,000 on climate action in 2025. What do we get for the half billion dollars?

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Yeah, what do we get? We got a lot of studies and reports. We've got a lawsuit that there was definitely energy put into and running resources into the lawsuit because of the Global Warming Solutions Act. And to me, it's just a lot of I know that there's information that you all need and data to make good policy decisions. But I think at a point, that's a lot of money. And how could that have gotten right to the people to have the changes for what it's worth? That was just in one year. 500

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: plus million

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: in a year.

[Timothy R. Corcoran II (Vice Chair)]: Representative Thompson.

[Representative Thompson (Committee Member, first name unknown)]: Thanks. Just on that point about resources spent on climate action. In the breakdown, it includes infrastructure improvements, flood hazard mitigation. Those seem like pretty critical things that could happen, and I don't think that they could go to individuals. I don't really want a block grant to help create one piece of asphalt on the road in front of my house that gets washed away. That's not really gonna-

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Well, that's where I included the report so you guys could look at the breakdowns from doing more. But I think there's also always been this sort of tension between the fact that the Agency of Natural Resources has, and I'm just being completely honest in my years of looking through and watching sort of the trajectory of this, the Agency of Natural Resources has a comprehensive energy plan that's really amazing and looks at environmental impacts and climate impacts and economic impacts. And then you have the climate council that was created that has the climate action plan. And so you have these two different approaches to how we're going to go about it. And this is where Vermonters for a Clean Environment has struggled with a lot of, not a lot, there's some really good thought coming out of the climate council. But with their policy recommendations, this is where the struggle has landed because of the economic impact to get there and what that would look like for a lot of Vermonters. So I think that's the tension.

[Representative Thompson (Committee Member, first name unknown)]: Yeah, and also just looking at the report, it looks like about 400,000,000 of those dollars were federal. So it sounds like we're drawing down federal dollars, possibly, to the degree, restricted by the programs being set federally. And then I

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: think it's also just the question of, obviously, what those federal dollars could be used for and how can we have direct impacts to people versus some of the policy, well, a lot of some of the reports, the millions that have been spent on some of the reports in the studies. But there's definitely on the ground action. And I have some of that coming here in a second too. Okay, and then the last few pieces, I think I'm almost there, but the lithium piece, was just pointing out, obviously talking about South America, water that's essential to the lives and environments of indigenous people in the Andes. So a big struggle there. And then I just had access to some of the articles on this. And again, just more on the impact. Then copper, I just wanted to point out copper is a big one. I did put a clip to a documentary in here about Codelco copper mine in Chile is probably one of the worst. So again, when you talk about this massive sort of build out for electrification and the demand for copper, and this is where you get in the people in the region have high rates of cancer, severe respiratory disease, birth defects, premature death. And this would also go back to what you said. You see similar situations from a fossil fuel standpoint too, but right now there just is more regulation around fossil fuel.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Can you describe the products that copper is used in?

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Copper is used in any of the wiring. If you think of anything that's wired, anything that is electrified, so a lot. And so when we talk about the build out for solar, when we talk about the build out for wind turbines, the build out for any sort of infrastructure for electrical Oh, the motors, telecommunications, connectors,

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: circuit boards, heat sinks, water pipes, air conditioning tubing, refrigeration. 100%. And it's the bottom, it says batteries.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Yep. That's just batteries. We're talking about copper. Well, just wanted to say in this electrification drive, because you guys are also just going through some of the cap and invest, if you were gonna do, or advanced clean car, advanced clean truck, if that's coming back your way, think we just have to think about, there's gonna be, there's more demands for copper. And again, this is just the Vermont Restore of Clean Environment. We are tuned into quarries and mining and the impacts of this, because it's what we focus in Vermont. It's one of our things, but then looking about what is the path where we're going from an electrification standpoint in Vermont, and just being aware of, this is a reality. It's gonna require a lot more copper if we're gonna reach goals of the renewable energy standard at a 100% electrification. So it's just trying to bring the reality of what happens along the way and can we get there? Okay. And then the only- Just time wise. Okay, yeah. So biofuels, just in relation to you guys, I just wanted to say 185,000,000 acres have been cleared since 1978 in the Amazon. And I had this year in particular was a map that looked at specifically what's being cleared for what crops. And a lot of this goes back to biofuels, which I know is something that you guys discuss and contemplate at times, but soybean and sugarcane in particular, which are genetically modified and require a lot of pesticides. So again, there's a lot of contamination and clearing of the Amazon for the biofuels. So just awareness around that as we move along. And then one of the last things was the deep sea bed mineral mining. And a lot of this again is manganese, nickel, cobalt, copper, rare earth elements, for this sort of technology and this electrification. So now there's, we have, I think here, yeah, intergovernmental seabed authority has approved twenty eight minuteing contracts on the ocean floor, again, in the demand for these minerals. And my last thing that I'll leave you with, this is the June quote. When June Tierney left the climate council meeting, or she left, she stepped down from her position as commissioner of Department of Public Service, I thought her quote was amazing because she's been involved in public service and on the climate council for quite some time. So she said, With all due respect, as someone who lost her home in Irene, I think the emphasis of this council is completely misdirected. We need to be thinking about how we use our resources, and we should be directing those at resiliency, in my opinion, and also, frankly, in recovery, because we can think large thoughts about emission reductions. Our emissions at the end of the day and our reductions of them may be morally just and therefore compelling, but is a compulsion to focus on them when the immediate needs of keeping people safe, directly knowing that we've got storms coming, are being sidelined and neglected in order to pursue those measures. And by that, I mean every cent that goes into policies that are directed towards reductions, where we need to be directing every cent towards hardening our systems and helping people survive here. I would urge this council to rethink where it's putting its intellectual capital. I cannot overemphasize how wrong I think it is, what it is we are doing. Those are my parting words to the council. And so my parting words to you guys, and thank you for the time and the opportunity is, you know, in Vermont, if we have the lowest emissions, we have 76% forest. Should we be directing a lot of our policy on this greenhouse gas emission path? Or should we be looking at how to best support Vermonters, reduce consumption, help with affordability, and build our infrastructure and make sure we're ready for when things come our way?

[Timothy R. Corcoran II (Vice Chair)]: Just a couple more minutes. Representative Burton?

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: Yeah, I just want to say I sort of have a little bit of a problem with this statement, because we are on a trajectory worldwide to an uninhabitable plan if we don't have lesions. And we read all the climate science about that, and I believe that we have to do, obviously, we're doing the implementation strategy, resilience, we have to

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: harden things, but we cannot just think about that. Because if we're doing that, and we're not even contributing a little bit towards trying to reduce emissions or being an example for other states, then we're working against what's happening. Emissions are going up. That's a fact. And I would just say to that, I appreciate it. I would just say that again, I would just come back to what we have control over in Vermont and how we can focus with a plan that works for Vermont and does support the environment, as well as the economic situation that people find themselves in so we can live and access what we need. And I know that's

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: But I think that some

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: of our climate reduction methods are geared towards affordability. As long as that's truly how it plays out. And fortunately there was a study. I did work hard, Senator Chittenden, she was my Senator, and we worked really hard with her to try to get the clean heat standard to turn into a report with the Public Utility Commission versus just being implemented, because there was a lot of evidence showing that that was gonna be crushing for people. Unfortunately, happened. We

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: found that out. Yes, exactly. That came a different. Right.

[Timothy R. Corcoran II (Vice Chair)]: Thank you very much for all your patience. I would say four or five times that you were delayed.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: Oh no, I'm glad it finally worked out. Thank you for hearing me.

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: Been a

[Timothy R. Corcoran II (Vice Chair)]: request from a member for a long time and I appreciate the amount of times that you've been I apologize also that I wasn't here for the whole piece. Whether you use the term climate resiliency or you use the term my grandfather would call preventative maintenance, one thing I want to point out is that this committee has made one of the efforts to find a way to help Eastern towns that this whole idea of storms are coming and larger culverts and road crews and bridges and maintenance work, We're finding a way to get them more money to something that we unify and we supported and drive the conversation towards that. Use those terms, I guess, and maybe that's not fair, but like I said, what my grandfather would call preventative maintenance and what some people would call climate resiliency, which has got much bigger factors to it. This committee is, I think I can say, uniformly agreed that they are trying to find ways to drive the conversation towards finding our community's help and the ability to prepare for the next biggest storm before it washes out and impacts the towns at the level that it has. That part,

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: I think we're Together, Ronnie.

[Alison Despathy (Community and Environmental Health Director, Vermonters for a Clean Environment)]: It seemed like as I was watching, because at all the climate council meetings I went to, there was of course, me coming from the Northeast Kingdom, tremendous concern around the floodings and the preparation. And so I think there's been such an emphasis and a lot more support that communities and emergency management are feeling to be ready for the stuff as it comes our way. And I think I just would love to see it be directed that way, our funding, our resources versus directed at policies that really might hurt certain Vermonters who are struggling. So thank you.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Thank you very much for coming in. Think we are adjourned until 10:30 during the end

[Timothy R. Corcoran II (Vice Chair)]: of year. Thanks, 10:30.