Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Look at that. We're live here on Thursday, 04/02/2026 in house transportation. We are looking at sections of the miscellaneous motor vehicle bill, and I guess it's S-three 26. I should put that into my mind. And we're starting out this morning on section 13. So let's see if anybody knows what page that is before I start flipping.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: Fifteen and sixteen.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Fifteen and sixteen. Certainly brought attention. And just for the committee's reference, the discussion yesterday related to the salvage titles and whatnot generated multiple emails to me last night of people that are willing to testify if need be and if there are any more further questions. So for something that I knew nothing about before we started, there are a lot of people that aren't particularly interested in that. So if anybody got any questions related to yesterday's salvage title, I received several emails last night willing to follow-up testimony if there's concerns. Maybe we'll find the same thing today because the room is a little more full than usual. So maybe our director of emergency management can come up and tell us a little bit about his take on section 13 if you'd like, and we'll go from there.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: Good morning. For the record, my name is Christopher Eric. I am the director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat for the Agency of Transportation. So this issue came up from my perspective, we were looking at some of the homeless encampments around the state in the state right away. And I want to make a distinction between a homeless encampment and an abandoned vehicle. And so what we were finding is getting tow companies to actually respond and tow vehicles that had been abandoned was becoming problematic. So I reached out to the commissioner of DMV. And I think what you see in front of you is a result of meetings with him and the association to streamline the process so that we come across a vehicle that's been there for a while. I'll contact DMV. Their officer will put a notice on it. After a period of time, it becomes considered abandoned by law enforcement. And now we're going be able to get tow companies to come in and take them. So I think this is a good step forward, and I support the language as presented.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Actually, it's thirteen, fourteen, 15, I think, is all sort of run together. To make that Not pitch 13. Yeah, we're talking 15 mostly.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: And I can speak to this. We had an issue down in Bennington on our chain up area. That was an abandoned RV and it was a nightmare to get out of there. It was just abandoned. It was just a bad situation. So anything that we could do to sort of expedite that process of getting things of that nature out of there quicker.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: I believe we've resolved that.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: No, no, no, you have, but it took a lot longer than it needed to be for sure.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: Representative Pouech, oh sorry,

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: didn't come Representative Burke, you're up first.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: Secretary Flynn knows about an issue that was happening in the Gopher Brattleboro line, but an abandoned trailer that was actually a private land, which means it a little bit Yes.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: I went down and looked at that myself.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: So thank you all for dealing with that, causing quite a bit of that, especially when people in Belford. Representative Pouech.

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, I appreciate you Just fine on this, and I apologize if you said it already. Do you have like the numbers of vehicles? Are they increasing? And if you would just sort of say what the whole process is, like somebody reports it, where does it go, who makes the call, where do these vehicles go, what happens to them?

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: Alright. Thanks for the opportunity to explain this. In terms of total number of abandoned vehicles, I don't have a good number on that in front of me. I know DMV had tracks the number. I believe you might have some numbers as And I've only started looking at this issue for the last eighteen months. And so I wouldn't have a good track record on that. In terms of the process, calls come in from various sources. The AOT employees are visiting our right of way all over the state on a daily basis. And they'll call. Now they know that I'm the point of contact, so they all know my phone number by heart. And they'll call and say, Hey, are you aware there's a such and such going on here? And so then myself or one of my staff will go out. And if it's a camper, for instance, at a park and ride, which is our most ubiquitous form of homeless encampment, we'll make contact. And one of the things that we always assess is there a health concern, a mental health concern. We bring AHS in and then eventually we'll serve them with a trespass notice and they move on. What tends to happen now is I'm seeing the same people in different locations, but we move along. There are the rare occasion where we had an instance where a couple was living in a car. The car didn't run. And so now that's a complex problem. If I go in and tow their vehicles, then what? And so we worked with actually, Williston PD, and we found them housing. We got them into a housing situation. And

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: then

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: that big car became abandoned. And prior to this legislation hasn't been enacted. And there was one wrecker who said he would take it and take the salvage rights. I think ultimately that was a wash for him. I don't think he made any money off that vehicle. But the process includes assessment, utilizing services, whether it's AHS or one of their contractors, Howard Community Services. I'm working with Washington County Mental Health right now on an encampment that's not it's not one that you probably have seen, but it's one that needs to be removed. So somebody builds a tent or a structure in the state right of way, that becomes more complicated because they're actually living there and they can't just move. And so we get mental health services involved. We get law enforcement involved. And then it's serving them with the notice, tearing it down, disposing of it, and then any personal items of value. We have a it's kind of like evidence collection in law enforcement. We track what it is and we hold it and we give them a receipt for that. And they think if they want to come claim it after

[Rep. Candice White]: a certain period of time.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: So that's kind of in a nutshell how it works. I don't know if I answered your question or if you have further questions.

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: They also must have just vehicles that are like, no one's there.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: Okay, yeah. Was a

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Okay, the VIN number and

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: They can do that. That's a DM. That's more a question for the DMV. But we had a truck at the Richmond Park And Ride. The windows were all smashed out and there was no license plate, no belongings in it. And so we put a sticker on that and then it was towed. And I'm sure it's then the records can talk about this. They'll do the title work with the MP. I'm not involved in that portion of it. But thank you for letting me explain that.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: Representative White? Yeah, thank

[Rep. Candice White]: you for this. So could you just share some of the timeframes? You said a vehicle may be in a right of way and after a period of Like, long, if it's a park and ride, for example, how long could I park and leave my car there before it starts to attract notice from AOT? I

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: would love to tell you that there's a hard and fast number for that, but it depends on how highly trafficked the area is. What does the car look like, unfortunately? And so for instance, I live in Grand Isle, and my office is in Berlin. I hit the parking rides all the way down every day. No, not every day, but most days. And so I have a sense of what cars have been there a while. And you start to see they move around. But you get a I would say something has to be there for a little while, a couple of weeks before I start to say, all right, I need to watch that and see. And frankly, we have people who temporarily live in our parking lot I talk with them and say, what do you know about that car? And they'll say, oh, yeah, that's been there forever. And so then we'll put the sticker on it.

[Rep. Candice White]: And the sticker says something like, If

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: in forty eight hours or seventy two hours, this vehicle will be towed. It's considered abandoned. We actually usually wait a

[Rep. Candice White]: little bit longer than And

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: we haven't had as far as I know, none of the vehicles that we've had removed under that. Nobody's called back and said, hey, somebody stole my car. But a lot of the other ones, I get notified pretty quickly. The cars are less obvious than the big campers.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: Are there cameras at these programs or no?

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: I'm sorry. Cameras.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: Track how long somebody's been there.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: I don't believe we I don't haven't seen cameras at the parking lot.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: But I was just

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: wondering if that's, like, potentially an option to say, hey, right? This is Bennington.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: So I can tell you that the parking lot I am answering your question, I believe. The parking lot at Metro Way in Barrie, where a lot of our employees who work at Barrie City Place are in transit on foot, We're putting cameras up there for security purposes, and that's a $75,000 investment. So yes, it would be, but it's a big, big dollar figure. Secretary?

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Please, anytime. Thank you very much. You're always welcome. Appreciate Joe

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: Flynn for the records. To the question, Representative Pouech, I would like to see us put cameras. We've talked about it. It's something the administration would not oppose. We didn't bring it forward in this budget, of course, but the reality is we would need to ask, especially this committee, to support that ask when we do it. The financial piece we can work through. But we always get into the retention of data of the patient. Whenever you talk about still photography or a loose photography or cameras, then we all understand, of course, the endless conversations about privacy and everything else. Even though legally there's no expectation of privacy in the public domain, that's often the trick why. How long are you going to keep the pictures and that sort of thing? What you might see from us sooner than later, and I hope sooner, is signage at risk areas that say, under surveillance. I realize we're on YouTube, but I just announced that to the world.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: It's high today because

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: they heard I was gonna

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: be here. That's two.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: Yes, two. It's one of the tools, but there again, so where do we observe this? I mean, we can observe all of this through our TMC, but then what? So Chris' testimony really is the important part, it's the then what? While I'm standing and have the floor, I'll sit down really quickly, but I just want to state the committee too, the degree of compassion and empathy that Chris and his team bring to this topic is truly important. There are two scenarios I know of where in visiting a family, he went out and purchased a smoke alarm or carbon monoxide detector, I forgot which because they had a wood burning stove in an RV. So we are not heavy handed, goons, goons, purchase this without a heart. We are totally I've testified a little bit before you all too about the homelessness and the encampment issues, but he's the expert. They've done it. So while we eventually, yes, serve somebody with a trespass order, because we legally have to do that at some point, there's that. Also got dog food for people who could barely provide their own sustenance but have banana. So the agency, I think you know the agency pretty well, but it does the right thing. I would say to a question asked a moment ago, this is a growing problem. I've been doing this for ten and six years before that at public safety, so while it wasn't V Trans, there was a nexus. And I think we all see it. It's a growing problem, and I'm glad I'm testifying about this today because the disposal of vehicles is an issue as well. The one Representative Burke mentioned in Guilford, it really became a hot potato. There was no bin, there was no owner, it was on someone's off our right of way on someone else's property, someone else gave us permission to go onto the property. Rightfully, the towns didn't want to absorb all the costs. So we finally just said, just do it. We split it. It was an abandoned vehicle registered to somebody in Albert up off Route 108 in Waterville, and it was driven off the road and trashed. And it was reported that state police allowed it to stay because the person didn't have insurance. So we ended up getting phone calls from town, from everybody else, and the districts go up and they get a part of the back open. So it's a real issue, but cameras are something I think we need to do for frankly the safety of the owners and guests who use the park and rides, and for the security of their vehicles. Well known Shell, Shell had her entire catalytic converter system stolen at the park and ride up by Costco in Colchester like five years ago. And I'm not suggesting you as a person who lived there, because that wouldn't be smart. It was stolen by criminals who were roaming around doing this sort of thing at parking lots. So anyway, it's a big deal. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Secobier.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Representative Keyser? Do you want to you

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: know, mean, do you know

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: how much it costs to get rid of that?

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: It can run us pretty close a thousand dollars. If we've got to get a roll out container sometimes, and then it's the disposal. I can't speak for what a tow company might make sure of what they do with it, but if a vehicle is beyond any value and it ends up like in the case of the camper down in Guilford, it's an RV, propelled. It literally was demolished with a back of what you tear down an old building and put into a roll off container. And I believe that particular one was about $4,000 And so there are Vitrends garages right now that have either containers or piles of this junk because we can't get rid of it. My infills don't want it. And in some cases it has no value. We're not necessarily talking about, you know, mean, Hutchins used to crush crackers with, I don't know if he's still in business, that's when it comes to, I think it was Hutchins

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: up in Triangle County.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: You're not really talking much of any good, especially in old 70s era wooden bagels, mostly wall warden womb. So if we're left with a lot of debris that's not easily legally disposable, We still have some stuff sitting around. We'll have to figure

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: out what we do with it. So maybe some of them costs could be offset with a Canvas system. We'd have an advance notice before things get out of hand.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: Well, I mean Chris spoke to this too, but at the end of the day, these are human beings and it's moving them along hard is really I don't mean to make this sound right, but it's like, you move them out of the Richmond Park And Ride and they end up in Colchester. Move them out of Colchester because they end up in Williston. Every single day I go by Wollaston in Richmond. Every single day. Workday at least. And I can tell you through no fault of the effort, the same two RVs are in Wollaston that have been there for like a month. And even if we serve them with a no trespass, we don't take any kinetic effort that's not there's one in Richmond right in front of, I'm sorry, Chimney Corners. For those of you familiar with Chimney Corners where the VTrans garage is and where the parking lot is, I mean it's right here in front of our garage. It's huge.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: I'm there tomorrow.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: What's that? I'm there tomorrow.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: To some degree we know we're just going to move someplace else, and it's an endless effort. We started this probably about ten years ago, Exit 14 Northbound, within the circle of the on ramp that was in a camp that was all overgrown. It was a law enforcement matter that occurred. What the police were called, we were informed there was a community of people living in the circle. It was sort of like a movie. And we went, we met with police after the fact. State police from the Williston Barrack were great. Eventually the individuals, people who were allegedly involved in criminal activity were dealt with law enforcement. The remaining people, some of whom were victims of that activity, who lived there were assisted. And with the barrack, we worked to relocate them, frankly, to another piece of property where homeless people live. That's not a wonderful solution, but it took those people out of an extremely vulnerable location because they had to cross an active interstate on ramp just to get where they were living. And then we clear cut the area. We clear cut St. Albans Exit 19. Not suggesting they had the same problem, but we're starting to do that more. Those are places we wouldn't have thought about five years ago.

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Trying to be proactive? Well we are.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: If you remove what yeah there's a term for that, something nuisance, attractive nuisance I think. If you remove that but again it's difficult because people, they have no other place to go. We balance that compassion part with what is our duty and our obligation. And so the question of how do we hear about this, I have citizens email me too, which I'm glad I'll take a phone call from anybody, I'm away from it, it's my phone. But in the case of Williston, there's a person who lives across in a house right up there by the road that goes, Hurricane Lenny reaches out, I didn't know, get my name offline, which is great. My responsibility to answer every citizen, basically saying, well what are you doing? This has been going on over here across the street forever. I shared to this person that we've been interacting with them and that the car he was talking about was a couple, as mentioned. The male had a job and walked every day to his job. He worked right there in the big box area. The female of course was left alone in vulnerable in that car all day. They did have a dog, that's the one where you buy the food from the dog, and that's the couple they got to help. But when I told that to the citizen, you know, it was, okay, I understand, thank you, it's a tough problem, but so we hear about these issues from a lot of people. We also hear about them from local law enforcement, and I will tell you that there's a lot of local law enforcement around Vermont that will say, go take care of your problem, we're not getting involved. And I'm a pro cop guy, But it's difficult for them as well. So this is why now Chris is working directly with DMV, because we can use our own law enforcement. We will inform locals that we're doing this, and certainly allow or offer if they want to take first place. You know what, I meant to be seen as criticism, when you look at all the other things police have to do today, whether it's local police, state police, or sheriffs, there are no solutions to these things. So that's a difficult thing sometimes, because you're asking a police officer to take an action and they're not able to resolve it. So it is a growing problem, but would the best.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: So I'm not sure where we're

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: at in terms of back to the piece of the language itself,

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: the purpose of the lang oh, I'm sorry.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Did somebody have a hand up? Oh,

[Rep. Candice White]: no. Clarified it. We need some questions. So

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: the purpose of the language is to make sure that whether tow companies are used or the agency makes the move to have to remove these vehicles, that there's a way to fund that Streamlines it.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: Think it's best way to look at it, and it works for me. And I believe, well, I'll let the association speak for themselves, but we've worked it out throughout me.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: Okay. Does anybody have any other questions, comments? Representative White?

[Rep. Candice White]: I guess just back to my question on timeline. It sounds like there's not really a set timeline for how long someone can be in a park and ride before AOT starts to consider it trespassing. That's a bit of a judgment call.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: Well, I think there's two answers to that. One is there is a specific timeline. I think if you leave a car there for more than, I think it's ninety six hours, The law or the statute says that, but it's more seeing it. There's only one of me and tracking all this. And so other folks may say, hey, this one's been here a while. So they probably will have well exceeded that by the time we get involved. That makes sense?

[Rep. Candice White]: Yes, yes. I guess my follow-up question is, does current signage, the secretary talked about potential signage on cameras in the future, but does the current signage that is posted at the parking lots give any indication about how long that car can be there before it?

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: I believe they say there's no overnight parking or camping. So technically, if it's there for twenty four hours, that would exceed that. But there's also the reality. Somebody's going to Boston for a couple of days. They carpool. We're not going to tow their car. But you kind of know it when you see it. And we don't do it on first pass either. I'm like, I think that car has been there a while. Come back in a few days. Yeah. That car is definitely not moving. You know, it's easier in the winter because it's this much snow

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: on it. How long is the time frame to park in a parking

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: garage? Don't know exact. Off top of my head, I'd I'd have to look it up, but I thought the sign that says no overnight.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Couple of nights when I come here.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: Yeah. Well, we got your license plate.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Don't worry. It's not inspected or registered.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: We do. I mean, can get that answer for you fairly quickly.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Mean, I leave it there for a day or two, and we go out of town on a regular basis.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: I mean, I don't think it's probably not enforced twenty four hours.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Probably tells me on this side.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: But if it's a week, then we start going, what's going on here? Does that make sense? Yeah.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Obviously you both travel the same sort of route. You've got Williston and Colchester and areas. What's happening in these issues in terms of Rutland or Heartland 91? What's happening on other right of way? I understand it sounds a bit Burlington centric, that's population based. But there's got to be, there's other areas that this may or may not be a point.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: We deal with this all over the whole state.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: You're not the only person that can deal with it to cover the whole state.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: I'm not the only one who can see that it's a problem and identify it. And so we have our district folks who are, they touch every mile of the state probably every day. Certainly the park and rides get patrolled in other areas. And so if there's an issue, people are knowing to funnel that information up to me.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: You mentioned patrol. Would you say that the DMV enforcement hits park and rides on a regular basis?

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: When I said patrol, that was probably a poor I choice of know that the DTAs send their folks through the park and rides looking for I mean, this isn't my issue specifically, but there's a lot of trash. People dump stuff. They dump needles. And so they're in there picking up on a regular basis. It shows you how effective they are that you may not see it because they're in there on a regular basis doing a really good job. I don't know the figure of how much trash we pick up on an annual basis. I think the secretary knows to the kilogram, but it's a lot. And so I would say if there's an issue, we've communicated out to our district folks what an issue might look like. If in doubt, they call me, they call Carl. Everybody knows Carl at AOT, trust me, who works for me. And then we start doing our assessment. So there aren't areas of the state that are being ignored. And this also includes the rail trail, our rail lines, and our airports. We've removed encampments off of airport properties.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: The rail trail piece was in the T bill last year or the year before, I believe, that clarified rail trail. It's a piece that was in last year's T Bill, I think, or the year before, I recall. There was a section on there, but that was a new update, I remember that conversation, but it does make me wonder, I'm sure there's a real clear answer to it, but who's primarily responsible for patrolling and enforcement for peace of rest areas, park and rides, pull offs, historical markers. There's so many areas associated with our roads and our right of ways that there's a whole variety of local, state, G and B that all of touch those areas. I guess I didn't realize there's anybody who's primarily responsible for those pieces. It's kind of a hodgepodge. It's me. It's you. Related to the abandoned vehicles, but not to all the children.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: No, no, the encampment program more so than the abandoned vehicles.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: That isn't increasing. It is? Please.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: A little more text to the question. Here's an example. In the February this year, B TRANZ picked 8.6 tons of trash in that week. The February. They picked trash every week of the year. We're not just out there when you might see us, which is now, primarily as we run up to our small mountain greenhouse bay. We could provide this to you with periods, just a quick analysis. If this was the fourteenth or 02/15/2026, this is the report I get every week, and patrolling, there wasn't really much patrolling that week because they did 69,830.26 miles, lane miles of plowing. But patrolling, when we use the word patrol at AMT, that's the B TRANS trucks, They patrol every day. If you see a V TRANZ truck going slowly along his shoulder with his lights on, what that person is doing is they're looking for a lot of things. They're looking for, are there any divots on the edge of the rope? Are there mild marker cones that are pushed over after a recent snowstorm? Is there some giant piece of debris on the shoulder? Is there a tire casing in the middle of the road where I need to put my lights on and my reflective vest and go grab the tire casing? So every garage will send out a truck and they will do a patrol. So that is easily confused with law enforcement patrolling, and certainly if our DMV officers see something they'll talk to the firecracker, they'll talk to the garage as well. But it's important that you know that we pick litter every week of the year, almost without exception. There literally may be just four entire weeks there's no litter in the company. And about two or three weeks ago they reported to me 28 tons. I said to Ernie, are you sure? He did the math. He said, we have all the weights left because take our trucks, do land builds, and every truck has weight. Just the way a hauler would do it. And it's a slightly different issue, I'm not conflating the two that necessarily encampments or homelessness is responsible for that, because that's really not the case. The vast majority of litter are not the people who live there, but yet there often is debris and stuff that accumulates. The other thing is on the side of the road, if the car has broken down on the side of the road, which isn't the question they'll last, but if that's the case, the time limit is about two hours. The VSP will call for a tow next on the list or whatever, and spend there for like two hours. And if they're not sure they won't tell it but they'll sticker it so that if another trooper sees it or one of our officers see it, they know. And as far as somebody leaving the car to go to Boston, even for four or five days, know, Chris said it, and you kind of can see, but if there's a question, law enforcement can always run the play. We don't do that. We don't have the right or the need to go into golf court. Our law enforcement officers can do that. We can call them and say would you go take a look at the blue car at the Richmond Park And Ride? They can run the plate, they'll get the registered owner, somebody might make a call. You know, Mr. Smith, are you your fire seems to have been in Richmond for a week and a half, it's covered in foot of snow. Yeah, you know, we won't tell that. But we make every effort to get it right. Thank you.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Thank you, Mr. Secretary. I would also say that I expect everybody else in the committee also had Director Patno's testimony and his codes and his testimony about picking up litter and all the hours of tracking of all of his spreadsheet of his codes of activity that we have heard about and get reinforced there, for sure. It does make me, I have to say a personal example, I'm not sure what you're supposed to do, but I came down Exit 19 to go to the Park And Ride this morning, and the same individual that was walking up towards the bridge on Exit 19 last night when I picked my car up from Park And Ride was walking out of there this morning. I didn't call anybody. I didn't do anything about it, but I

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: You said when you were walking on the limited access? Right.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: So she got 19 that's very wide there. So last night, say, I come from the parking lot, and you're coming south. You turn left to go on to the 19 to go north on 89. And there's a guy walking right up the piece headed towards the bridge under 19, or I assume he's headed to underneath the bridge. I don't know where he's going. But he's walking up that piece, and this morning when I came down southbound to get off to get on the park and ride in St. Albans, that guy's coming from wherever he was. Now he's walking off the So we have a similar travel schedule, but I don't know what he's up to. But I don't know what we do with that.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: A safety standpoint, it's just trying to call the police and walk his Yeah, that's a dangerous thing. It endangers drivers and it endangers that person as well.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: So I would And I don't know, that means that on Exit 19, there's an encampment starting up underneath That could

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: be as well. Whatever it is, I have

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: no idea. I know that I'll make a phone call. We went there last night and they were coming out of there this morning. Thanks for checking me now. It's tough. It's a tough situation.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: If anybody has any questions that you think of later, feel free to reach out to me. Also, And I can give you my phone number right now if you'd like.

[Rep. Candice White]: Sorry to delay the Okay, so this legislation is basically establishing that tow companies will get paid up to $250 to tow vehicles that AOT has identified as needing to be removed from their right of ways for park and rides, etcetera. That's basically this language that we're looking at.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: Considered abandoned. Correct. Thank you.

[Rep. Candice White]: And then we've gone into a lot of different topics, including the trash, which I continue to be horrified. Probably not relevant to the DMV bill, I would be supportive of some legislation that increases fees to people dumping trash, because I feel like that's absurd.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Take note of that for next year's time.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: Next year's team member,

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: you have some support amongst the committee for I didn't hear the support on the cameras, but I did hear some support on the some frustration with the amount of trash that we pick up. You very much. Thank you for your time. Thanks for helping out the dog.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: You're the one that bought the dog food?

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: Yeah. We have, Joe knows, I'm a dog person. Yep, so aren't I. I can show you pictures Yep. Of my dog if you want. My phones have pictures of my dogs, not my kids. There you go. It's no joke. Alright. I will do this. This is my mutt.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: Oh yeah, the rotis are. She is

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: a pitbull. Oh yeah. She's a giant baby.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Yeah, I've never bet a

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: bad one though, but you get a bum rap.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: You get a bad rap. Thank you all. Thanks. See you. That's awesome. That's the first doctor's appointment.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Now let's hear about the view from the towers Herbert representing the Mont Towing Association also runs a business out of the great town of Swan. For the record, Herbert Barnaby from Mont Towers Association. Any

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: dog pictures?

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: And I do have dog pictures. I love them. From miniature donkeys to miniature horses to my wife and chickens. But I love all of our of our dogs in the last eight years have came out of kill shelters. But French and English bulldogs Yeah. Love them. Yep. Love to any animal. So you can sleep with something snoring? Yep. I can. Yeah.

[Rep. Candice White]: This is getting a bit personal. I

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: almost and I was just wanting to love ambulance, so let's look. I'll ramble on. Have that about 50. Last time last time

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: I came down to testify, Chris had brought up the situation of abandoned vehicle that people were living in. And the night before, we got called by the state police, TDI Towington, for a car that went off the interstate. And we arrived to the car, and it ran out of gas and two people living in it, two dogs in it. My operators know how we operate, told me and said, what do we do? I said, well, it's not an accident. Where are you at? He said, I'm a mile before the Georgia exit. And I said, what's the problem? He said, I think they're out of gas. I said, get them to the gas station, put $10 worth of gas in it. Make sure they got something to eat. If they need coffee or something, make sure that's taken care of. Put all your info on your toe book and and let it go. And so, you know, and and then Chris' conversation in that day was if it's their home, there's laws and things that protect them on that. And I look at it as being reasonable and prudent, taking care of what you can in your community. But to get to why I'm here is we've worked with the DMV and we've got the bill, the stuff raised to two fifty. It's been through the Senate, we're here, The house side, DMV worked with us good. And, you know, we want the towing in the state of Vermont. We wanna try to get rid of that predatory towing and and that the towers are the bad people. We're looking to do whatever we can to do that. And it's been a pleasure working with the DMV and Chris, I've heard a lot of his sides of things and anything we can do to help on that side. Let's see what we can do, but that's what we're here for.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: It was $250

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: enough?

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: Really, it's not. It's a lot better than we had. When when we look at this when we look at what we have to do, mister Flynn brought up a name, and I think he's thinking of Hodgdon Brothers in Swanton, Vermont. We have to drain the gas. We have to drain the oil. We have to drain the antifreeze. And we have to take the tires and wheels off the cars to bring them there for salvage now because I'll follow the rules. We have done some of this motor home stuff. We have to strict any sewage tanks, water tanks, propane, all of that out of them, insulation out of them. And some of it has to go to Casella. The the propane tanks have to get that stuff disposed of properly. And then the metal side Hodgdon will take, but you can't take a motor home into Hodgdon's and say, here it is for scrap. You can't even offer to give it to them. Our fee is usually what they're looking for after we get it stripped, they're looking for us to pay them $2,000. So but the $2.50 is is is a good start for getting it up. I mean, you know, It's a touchy go situation. We have a group of about 65, 68 members in the Vermont Tow Association, it's growing. We get their feedback on it, what they're looking for. Some of them, we need a thousand bucks for that. The state can't absorb that. To answer a question that a lady asked, we're at about 1,400 cars a year, 1,400 vehicles a year as abandoned in the state of Vermont. Okay.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: A couple of years ago, this committee was sitting over there, took quite a bit of testimony from donors and donor associations, and it was other issues involved in it. But I thought we had raised the fee from 75 or something up to 125 a few years ago. I remember during that conversation that I thought the statewide number was only about 500 abandoned vehicles on the side of the state highways. And maybe that was limited to the interstate. With this, it's like a really substantial

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: drop from from 900.

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: That was 100. If they had a cap on how many they would pay for, and that was in the 4 or 500 range. But DMV does have it if you could work with them. Commissioner had some numbers. He would have them for you. But yeah, the number's up there and it's grown with what we have going on.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: You're saying on all state highways, interstate state highways, class, all of roads that are abandoned vehicles, not accidents, but abandoned vehicles, it's three a day or four plus a day statewide. Oh, what we run into with this is we will get called to a state police call.

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: We pick up the car, we get it back to the yard, and nobody comes for that car. So they turn into an abandoned, accidents turn into an abandoned.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: Okay, so

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: the vaccines are part of that number.

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: Yes, accidents are part of that number.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Straight abandoned on the side, no identified.

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: That number I don't.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: That was the number that I thought was 500. You're talking about abandoned after accidents that come combined with abandoned. You gotta come get this. It's unsafe to be on the road. It's left there or whatnot. Okay. I'm sorry.

[Christopher Eric (Director of Emergency Management, Safety, Facilities, and Hazmat, AOT)]: And like if we get

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: a like if we get a Maplefield's called in and abandoned, we let them know right away. Call the Vermont State Police, get it turned in, do your due diligence, you get a report number, and then you call us back. And then we confirm with the police department. And if it's as abandoned, we'll go get it. We don't get a lot of them. We don't get a lot of we don't get a lot of abandonment parking rights. Our biggest thing we get called on on parking right is is what Chris is handling now. Know, they encamp. Because a parking ride has a restriction from November 15 to April 15, no overnight parking do a snowmobile. They have a statute that there's no camping in a parking lot. I do not believe there is no limit on how many days that vehicle can stay. So but I will vouch for Mr. Flynn, secretary Mr. Flynn. The other night, we dropped a vehicle to parking lot. Three hours later, we were back to it. And there was two piles of trash behind it. And there was coffee cups and drink cups on the tunnel cover of that vehicle. So trash is a is a issue. And for the record, they went in the back of that pickup and went to our shop. That's all right. So we didn't leave it. But there's there's issues that there is out there. But the $2.50 to get back to the long winded deal is a lot better than the 125. And we appreciated that. If you wanna give us 500 today, I don't know. We

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: need to classify the difference between RVs and vehicles on both sides. Not every towing company's got the equipment to deal with that, I see. We

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: had to move we didn't have to. Saint Albans City PD asked us to move some out of the parking ride in Saint Albans, Detroit by the hospital. And those had flat tires and stuff, and we asked them to do their due diligence, which they did, and got approval that they could go. And two of them, they signed off and turned over to us. We had to move those little land all, which is a 53 foot trailer behind a tractor, not just a rollback. And we did our due diligence with Casella, Hodgson Brothers, and I explained to Jason what was going on. There was no money to be had out of that situation. And Jason crushed the two of them for us for free to sell, I think, 700 something dollars, and our company ate that, but we took care of that for the same. We can't do it for all of them, but we try to do what we can do for our community. And and like I explained to him, as long I don't want people coming here complaining, I throw him out of a home. And then after hearing Chris' deal, it's a good thing when we went with that that situation, but they had moved out of them. And then then people ended up in Innesburg, and Chris dealt with them up there. And I think they knew him by name up there. So yeah.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Representative White and then Representative Teyser.

[Rep. Candice White]: Thank you. I'm confused why this particular yard or maybe yards charge so much money for bringing basically the metal body of the car. I I go to my transfer station and can recycle metal products where the majority of the materials are metal. I can drop those off for free. So I thought that was part of the Vermont recycling program, that metal is accepted at transfer stations at no cost. But that's not matching up with these yards charging you a lot of money to take a metal body of a car.

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: No, on a metal body of a car, we don't get charged yet. We have to remove all the products I told you, and dispose of them through our business, through Safety Kleen, whoever handles our stuff there. Yep. Average car today brings us in 120 to about $230 depending on the weight of it, is what we get paid. Srap is down. So and it has been for the last couple of years. But we do get that amount of cash for a car, but we've gotta strip it to do that. And then the tires have to get dismounted off the rims, and we get we dispose of them through a recycling company at $12.50 a tire, $30 for a big truck tire, antifreeze,

[Rep. Candice White]: and a lot of the oil safety clean picks up, they charge a fee for that. So your cost is really dealing with these other pieces of the car and having to pay to recycle or get rid of those pieces. The battery has to be removed out of it. Okay. And the memory can get a little bit more. Yes. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: But the RVs, we're paying to get rid of that. We're paying to get rid of that. Representative Casey? Cool.

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: You what would be the ideal amount for you to go get a car? What what would be a we're talking $2.50 here, but what it sounds like it's not really a super great deal for you guys. What would be the would be the cost that would like, maybe maybe you you wouldn't mind doing the job kind of a deal. See somebody go do a job and they walk away and they really didn't come out that good, especially when you're doing it over and over again.

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: I would easily see it to be in the 300 to $400 link, but I can't speak for every tower. But in this situation here, it makes it more presentable for us. We don't turn down what we're given. You know, some days bear eats us, and some days we eat the bear. And the state is focused on a lot of different things, and we live in this state. So the $2.50 brings it more up. You know, what would be nice is if the salvage yards would take that car where we could bring it right to them and it go to them. And there's probably other salvage yards in the state that does it, but like in our area, but I was talking to Ray Ellis, Steve Ellis at Ray's Auto, and and they run into the same thing. They have to get fluids out of the vehicles. So it's a

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: hard thing to throw in somebody's

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: paying them.

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: We're paying them, and nobody works for minimum wage no more. Well, not if you wanna eat. Not if you wanna eat. Yep. So, it'd be up in that 3

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: to $400 range. Sounds fair. Yep.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Other questions? Any other comments? Pieces?

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: Representative Lalley?

[Rep. Kate Lalley]: Yeah, I'm just wondering, I have heard anecdotally that because of our housing crisis, people are living more and more in campers just out of necessity. But then it sounds like maybe in some instances, if they then are able to find normal permanent housing, then I think you're describing the instance of this hospital. The camper in that situation may just get jumped, and then it becomes like a form of litter that we've all got to deal with collectively. So that

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: am

[Rep. Kate Lalley]: I on to something here? Is that a sort of pattern that might be something that the visibility of it should be raised with some of the folks who are providing housing for people transitioning.

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: That would be a situation for Chris. He knows the ins and outs of that very well.

[Rep. Candice White]: I'm just looking for ways that our state agencies can work a little more collaboratively, you know, to solve some of these problems, which are related.

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: I have a card I can hand out. I answer my phone twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. Willing to work with any one of you that wanna give us a call and through Chris. I'll work with Chris if I'm getting his number here today. I'll work with any of you in any way we can. And I'll work through the Vermont Tow Association, through TDI, anything I can do to help.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Are we a snowmobiling? Yes. There's a provision in this bill to raise the penalty for driving an unregistered snowmobile on a vast trail without that registration or sticker up to $450 from the current, I think $125 Would

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: you like an opportunity to comment on

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: that on a side note unrelated to your current

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: subject? Because they all need to be registered in this situation that we have with people abusing our parking lot and abandoned, we have people abusing registrations on snowmobiles. I own one now, but we keep it registered and stay up with my vest. I'm a state instructor for snowmobile courses and I strongly believe that I I would totally agree with that. Sometimes, you've got a great opportunity to take a little extra shot, you know, wasn't totally in the dark. Representative Keyser,

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: I was supposed to say something about every year, well, if you if you do it early, you can save yourself a few bucks.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: But I think it was about 145

[Rep. Chris Keyser]: or 155 this year for the early bird. That's your TMA. That's to get you on the trails. That's to pay the guy that's grooming. Then you have insurance. If you have a good record, you might pay a little less. Well, I'm gonna guess a $100 or so for snowmobile insurance, maybe some people or more. And then and then, that's your registration. I mean, you're you're right up there. You're right up towards so the so the fine should hurt. It should hurt a little bit more as if, you know, if you had gone through and done what you were supposed to do, you would have saved yourself maybe a $150, but you got caught. And people that ride that pay all those fees to be on those trails, they get kinda ticked when they see renegades out there running on the trail. A lot of these guys are just pulling it out of their shed and going for a ride at night. You know, it's not fair to the guys that pay all those fees. I personally, I think it's enough. I think it wouldn't hurt me if it was a little bit more because I'm gonna pay for my stuff to be I won't pay for my privileges to be on those trails.

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: And not to pat myself on the back so you know where my knowledge comes from that. I'm a past president of the Franklin County Snow Raiders. I was the director of vast trails in Franklin County and worked on a lot of trails and dealt with a lot of landowners. There's a lot that goes into that. K? And and and just like secretary Flynn was talking about how he answers his phone. I answer the phone a lot of mornings. I travel from Connecticut all the way up here, and I paid all this money for my vest, and there is no snow. What are you gonna do? And that is gospel. My wife heard me on that conversation at four in the morning. She said, Did I just hear they want to know what you're talking about? About the snow. And I usually have quick wit to come back on, and I said, well, if you go to JPeak or or Killington, I believe they're blowing snow today, and you should be all set. Yeah. There's there's a lot to it. And, you know, landowners give in a lot for that. A lot of people don't realize what goes into vast. So I'm for it.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Glad we took that trip. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I'm biting out on some of those things. When comes together, we wanna show that.

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: I wanna thank all of you for listening to us. And please, if there's any concerns in the towing in the state of Vermont, Bob Moneman, which is not here today, myself, our directors, secretary, we're willing to work with you.

[Joe Flynn (Secretary of the Agency of Transportation)]: K. Thank you.

[Herbert Barnaby (Vermont Towing Association; towing business owner, Swanton)]: Thanks very much. Thank you. Have a great day. Okay. And I've seen that person you're talking about since nineteen.

[Rep. Matt Walker (Chair)]: Well, a lot of different angles today. So we are on break and adjourn till 11:00.