Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Twice. Oh, I like the video. Good morning, Wednesday, April 1 04/01/2026 here in house transportation. We are looking at s three twenty six, miscellaneous I don't know. I guess miscellaneous motor vehicle build, And we're going to start out this next piece is sections two and three. And I guess you got to flip that over to page where are we? First 11 pages or something like that. Where did I miss that? I guess I'll just hand it off. We'll have the DMV point out what the section's about, what they're looking for, where we're at, all that good stuff. Good morning. Welcome back to the community.

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: Good morning. My name is Nancy Prescott, for the record, with DMV, director of operations. And I am here to talk about the section regarding inmate credentials and the addition of detainee credentialsIDs. A little background information. DMV has had inmate credentials in process. And we've worked with the Department of Corrections in collaboration of issuing inmates that are incarcerated for six months or more. We already have that process and program in place for the last five years. It is at no charge to them. House corrections and institutions brought forward a bill to include the wording of detainee this year. Senate Transportation welcomed that into the DMV miscellaneous bill, which is the wording that you see now, which is inclusive to detainees. DMV in our miscellaneous bill did elaborate or expand our credentials to include permits, as well as driver licenses for inmates. That is where DMV added to their miscellaneous bill, and then now detainees is in addition to. So that part is new for us going forward if approved.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Permits are for any age? They are. Pretty much. So you can still get a if you're an age over 21 or whatever that is. Doesn't I'll

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: give you an example that might be helpful. If an individual has had a driver's license and then didn't renew it or had medical reasons or suspensions for more than three years, you have to retest everything. So that's where the permit process comes into play. Somebody also may have been a younger individual and possibly incarcerated and had a permit process started prior to going in. To your point, Chair, those aren't on a high number, but since we were opening up for whatever it is that the individual currently has or is eligible to, we wanted to match that for the wording, be inclusive. Representative Keyser?

[Chris Keyser (Member)]: So what I heard was that you would be, prior practice had been that after six months, you would do this procedure. Was that right?

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: You have to be incarcerated for

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: six Right, no, that was my point.

[Chris Keyser (Member)]: Okay, so you have to be incarcerated for six Now you're talking about detainees.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: That's

[Chris Keyser (Member)]: right. So detainees doesn't sound as Now see this, I'm just trying to learn. But detainees, I mean, you just come in and come out, but you can be detained for more than six months?

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: I will let our experts answer that question, but in a roundabout way, yes.

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: Monique Sullivan, Department of Corrections Operations Manager. In the past, it's been for individuals who have been sentenced to serve at least six months. And there are definitely people who are detained for more than six months. I think my longest person that I've seen detained was for five years. He was detained for five years, got sentenced and walked at the building. So people can be detained for any time.

[Chris Keyser (Member)]: So what's the definition of a detainee?

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: Someone who has not been sentenced yet. Okay,

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: wow.

[Chris Keyser (Member)]: We're holding people in prison or in jails without being sentenced for as many as five years?

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: Depending on what the case is. In that particular case, the individual is representing himself, So he had to do all the shape and work and do all the research by himself. So normally it's less than a year. And I would just add to

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: just further Hold on, I'm sorry. For the record, and you're not on the witness list, I just want to make sure that you're with the rep. So anyway, we can get that done. So go

[Keyser (DOC Director of Communications)]: I'm Keyser, Director of Communications for the Department of Corrections.

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: Would just add that the court sets the conditions for someone to be detained in a correctional facility prior to trial. There are events in which people might be released, they might be held without bail, they might come public bail and make bail.

[Unidentified (interjection)]: So there are a variety of pathways that someone can

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: go to prior to their trial once they've been charged with a crime.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Sorry about that, I just didn't have you on the witness list, and I wanna make sure you're on the, that you get on the witness list. Thanks. Representative Keyser, did you get your Thank you, Appreciate your

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Representative Pouech? This seems simple, but I just want to make sure I understand it. So prior to being released, whether you're incarcerated or in detention, you can obtain an ID or a

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: permit. I'd like to walk you through the process and that might help clarify that question. So one of

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: my questions was if I'm sentenced for ten years, I'm assuming my license goes away during that time. And this allows me to go back through the process to get an ID or a license. Does maintain during

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: It does not maintain. We are not maintaining. We are not allowing for This is not opening up for renewals or anything while one is being detained or in serving. Trying to get the right lingo down. It is strictly upon their release that they are eligible for, but the criteria is they must be either serving six months or detained for six months minimum in order to qualify whenever that time comes near for release.

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: Representative Burke. So what if they're retained for Florence? They don't qualify. It's six months minimum. But then they would detect it, but through the whole process?

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: I believe so.

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: Like a normal?

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: Yep, that's correct. Because this credential ID process is at no charge. DMV is absorbing the cost for this one time upon their releases. And this

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: is just sort of help someone to please experience heartfeltion for six months, sort of put down on their feet.

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: That's correct, because you need an ID for everything. So how

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: does the DNI, just as a I realize that probably the committee downstairs far more familiar than we are with. So how would this your communication would Do you get notified of end of terms coming up or something and work through? Then what? Do they come and get a picture somewhere? How does it work in a day to day

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: Happy to walk you through it. So regarding those that are serving, let's keep it separate from the detainees. So right now, I'm going to speak of the process of if you've served for six months minimum or more. We have a great collaboration with the DOC. The goal is to have the individual upon release to be leaving with a credential in their physical hands. This is worked through with the collaboration of DOC. We have contact person there. They send us a list on a weekly basis of who is being released in the upcoming month or two. From there, we have the information. To your point, how do we get a photo?

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: How do

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: we get a new signature? All of that has been worked through DOC. They're the ones that send us the information. They know what the specs are that we DMV need. They go and get that from the individuals that are serving, the signature, the photos, all of that sent over to DMV. We get the credentials sent directly over to the Waterbury Department of Corrections address from there, and they can speak more of it. They're then either dispersed through their case managers. Is that

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: From central office, like Candice said, we have a list. We have him sitting out and where he's located. So we send DIDs to the facility so that when the first walks out the door we can't.

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: So we've got that piece checked off.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: That documentation that is needed, would that include a passport or birth certificate or a history of the previous license?

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: That's a great question.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: It maintains that, or does it get all the New York system at some point? So

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: this process that we have in place right now, that is not new except for expanding to driver's licenses and permits. If the individual is already in our system, we already have the documents, and we will match up accordingly. If in our system we do not have the documents, they will get issued the non driver excuse me, the non privilege card. If it's a non driver ID, if it's a driver's license, if it's a permit. But depending on, to your question, what do we have in our system, they're not gathering them right now for inmates, and nobody's sending anything over except for a picture, a signature, and the information that we need to be able to do the research to see what we have.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Do they then have some kind of problem or process when it comes to renewal of that? So let's go fast forward three years or whatever the length of that driver's license, they They will be in the regular renewal process then, and they won't need any of that documentation.

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: If they got a real ID and if we found all of the documentation, the birth certificate, the valid passport, the social security in our system, they would be just like everybody else in regards to their renewal process. If we do not have a social security, if we do not have a valid passport or a birth certificate on our system, we're going to issue them a privilege card to whatever credential type matches up. Now if that individual upon renewal wishes to upgrade to a real ID, and upgrade's probably not the best word because there's no additional fees, it's just the documentation, That individual would then be responsible just like any other citizen to come in and provide the documents.

[Patricia McCoy (Member)]: So you do issue these non real IDs or driver's license. What's the rate of moving? Is it two years? Is it

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: four years? It is two years. Two years.

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: Yeah, that's

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: a great question. For this

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: process specifically is two years. Two years. Okay, thank you.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: So this is something that happens all the time now, which is going to be two different, two more identification options available, is it that?

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: For those that are serving, that's correct.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: And then you get to the detainee part is?

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: A different process. So detainees is new, as I mentioned. So that'll be going through our DMV miscellaneous bill. It is additional language. This process is going to be different. As Monique is going to be able to share, as a subject matter expert, they don't know when detainees are going to be leaving, as we have the luxury of knowing when somebody's release date will be. So for them to get us the information and for us to possibly miss, there's a good chance of missing the individual to get the credential physically in their hands, we have to review and we have come up with what another plan is going to look like. Those individuals are going to be identified. Those individuals are going to, Department of Corrections is going to work with them to get the documents that they need, if applicable. They're going to end up leaving DOC and correct me, Monique. I call it a little baggy. That's just as a visual with the set documents that they actually need. They will then come to DMV themselves to assure that they are getting the documents. It is at no charge, again, but to assure they're getting the credential because they don't know once they leave where they actually are going to be going for detainees, not those that are serving. Separate process. So we're still going to be in collaboration with DOC to gather the documents to get the information. But instead of coming to DMV, it's going to go directly to the individual. And the individual will be responsible coming to DMV.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Could you allow it?

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: So I guess I'm trying to understand somebody who is detained, maybe not, I don't know, incarcerated, or how does

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: that work? I'll let Monique from Department of Corrections answer that if that's okay.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: That's great.

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: Someone who's detained is not sentenced yet. Okay. And they're detained until they see the process of sentencing. So they're physically free? No, they're in jail. Okay, how do they get to the DMV to do this if they're supposed to? It's when they get released. Okay, so that they walk out the door with all the documents they need to go to the DMV again. Okay. So these are people who are not, but if you're sentenced, don't you go to jail? I don't know. Yeah, okay. So these are people who are All of the people who are in jail. Okay. And it's all, we make sure that they have their documentation when they walk out the for the person to. They just go down to. So I guess I'm trying to understand what does the Eve mean in this context?

[Patricia McCoy (Member)]: Is that

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: Release from Release from jail. Okay. Okay. I guess there's just terms that I'm not statuses that I'm not as familiar with. Okay. I think I get the question. Thank you. Representative McCoy and

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: then Burke and then White and then oh, she got all kinds of questions now.

[Patricia McCoy (Member)]: My assumption is when the detainee is leaving, so I consider it they're in limbo because they're in jail, but if they don't have a release date yet or they haven't been sentenced yet, so they're in this little bubble here, Is it explained to them when they get their little packets when they leave? Like, this is the packet you need to bring to DMV in order to get your non real ID or get your license or whatever.

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: The caseworker works with each person and asks them, do you deem this work? Did you want to take your ID when you get arrested? That kind of thing

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: will happen.

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: So if they say, yes, I need documentation of your ID, the caseworker works through the process with them and explains either you're going to get paperwork or you're going to get an ID before you leave. Individuals have to take pictures and sign all the norms and everything so they know what's happening. Okay, alright. Thank you. Yeah, somebody's I mean, somebody can be chained for a couple of days, right? And so, I mean, do you start that process immediately when somebody's Get into these detained. Their detained for two weeks, and they're ready to get So sick out. To be eligible for any of this is that they need to be detained for six months. Oh I see, that is both for the detainees and for the people who are sentenced. Correct. Right, that all, okay thank you.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Do you mind if I put you up in the other chair so that the people can see the YouTube and everything? No, no, I just

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: We should just show

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: up together. We're happy to have you join us up there too, but Not that they're, you know, it's not the highest viewing audience, but it's But we have to go back and understand it. I apologize to represent to have to look over her shoulder too, so thank you for And Representative Burke, are you all set?

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: I'm all set, thank you.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Then Representative White and then Representative Pouech.

[Candice White (Member)]: Thank you. Would you be willing to just give a bit of an overview? I feel like we dove into details and there's a little bit of confusion, which I am sharing. So my assumption is this program exists to help people who are incarcerated once they are out to get on with their lives, get a job, and have the right documentation so there are no barriers. So I'm understanding that's the big picture goal. What is current legislation and what are the changes in the DMV bill? What problems are they solving that have not been addressed in current legislation? If you could just set the table a little bit, that would be super helpful.

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: Yeah, that's a great question. No problem. So as I mentioned, those that are serving has already been an existing program for the last five years. What it gave was a non driver ID. It did not give a license if one was eligible. It did not give a permit if one was eligible. The new language is proposing expanding from the ID specifically to what the highest credential type one may be eligible for. So if they had a license on record prior and it had not expired for more than three years, we will then be able to issue. The new language is allowing us to issue them a driver's license. Same with a permit. That is the new language that's being proposed for our current process for those that are serving six months or more. New language now is expanding from the interest of the bill from House Institutions and Corrections brought over to Senate Transportation to expand detainees. So that form from a process, as Monique just mentioned, is going to change from what we currently do. There are gonna be two separate processes, one for serving, one for detainees. However, what one will be eligible for is gonna be the exact same of the expansion that we're looking to expand on. So what we are, the goal to your question though, is what is it serving its purpose? Is trying to get somebody, we always issue a non driver ID, but somebody could be eligible for a license. So then they're coming back to DMV, they're paying for a credential, we're trying to take any of those challenges obstacles away and give them what they are eligible for at the very first stop.

[Candice White (Member)]: Okay, that makes perfect sense. And then one follow-up. So if an incarcerated person went into jail with a license, has been there so long that it's expired. So upon their leaving incarceration, they may only be eligible for a non driver ID because of the expiration. Is that then the first Do they get helped with kind of, here's your non driver ID, here's the process of how you can reinstate your driver's license? They would have to go back through the driver's Like the testing, etcetera, and there's some guidance for how to do that as well, or are we not there yet? We don't provide guidance on how to get your license. We just make sure you have an ID when you go out the door so that on your own, you can go into the DMV and start the process. Because the DMV, you fill out the form when you walk in the door that I'm applying for a permit, that kind of thing. Here's my ID, and then you start the process from there. Thank you. That's very helpful. Representative Pouech?

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, thanks for walking us through this. If you're incarcerated in a private prison, not in Vermont, is the process the same? Yes.

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: Like anyone that is under Vermont, they're in custody. Right. Yes.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Even though he might be out of state. Yes.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Currently, what would a detainee get for help without this bill? Nothing. Nothing. So right now, internally, have no help in the ID or anything when they were released? Correct. But under the new law, they would have the documentation for whatever they were most able to get. But they wouldn't have the actual rifle, so that works for me and myself. Except for the detainees. That's what's different between ours

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: and then what House and Washington.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Just trying to figure out the differences, how low they're together. We just literally passed the bill, so that didn't include the detainees.

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: I believe it is in

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: I think it's the So this is the exact same piece of legislation. Yes. Nothing different. No. All right, so that's why I was confused. So the question becomes there, do we need it in here, or is that bill gonna Which one is the vehicle that it should stay in? Or should it be in both? Should it only be in one? Which And one's gonna get across the finish line? And I guess which one's gonna get across the finish line first? More of a process So

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: Monique and I respectfully have been doing a tag team roadshow quite a bit on this topic. So we've gotten to know each other quite well, which I'm grateful for. But we've been in house and institutions corrections quite a bit. The bill popped up there. And then knowing Senate Transportation, our DMV miscellaneous bill was expanding the current process, somebody got wind of it. And to your point, somebody is like, shouldn't they be in both sections? That's how I believe the legal counsel came together to bring them and have the wording exactly the same was very important to them as well, the vocabulary terms.

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: So we'll see We'll let you guys

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: to decide Which bill would go through. Keep it in here or go through, or if the Senate will pass. What was the number on that? I got it on my notes here somewhere. I even got a copy of that bill from the House Chair of Institutional Corrections, but it's the same as

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: So it's in the corrections bill that we just passed?

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Yes. Oh, it's a standalone. It was

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: Oh, this is a standalone. Okay. That's all right. Thank you.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: My question is, we sent over H549 is the same language as the first 11 pages of this. So, reference and McCoy?

[Patricia McCoy (Member)]: So my question is, corrections is in a different title and statute, and transportation is in a different title. So is this language going to be appearing in the corrections statute and the DMV statute, or just one? That's the question. It'd be just more productive.

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: I can't because that's not a question I would be able to answer I and don't know, Haley, if that's something.

[Patricia McCoy (Member)]: If it was a DNB

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: statue, don't know

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: if my suggestions had it, but it's also

[Patricia McCoy (Member)]: a drive by if it pertains to any titles that interpretation does. And similarly, I guess, by, it pertains to DMV, but if it's a title for the corrections, then it I should

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: just looked it up, So it's the we could take it out.

[Patricia McCoy (Member)]: Yeah. My point. I mean, I just wanna, we should have probably done a

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: drive by, but said, yeah,

[Patricia McCoy (Member)]: go ahead and run with it, cause it's not within our purview really.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: It's not under our title. But that's just me.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: No, no, no, I'm just saying we have the option to sneak this out, because we already passed it. Worst case scenario, But we already saw

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: But it's just in seven institutions and it hasn't passed.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Right. No, no. I mean this is part of discussion for the witnesses, but the procedural thing. I guess on that area I would say that we will have to make a decision based with what other areas of the building are planning on doing or not doing and what happens to move forward. Somewhere between now and before we get done, either we'll stay or it'll go. So, Representative Pouech and then Representative Burke.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, just to put it in perspective, what other, it's not benefits, what other services are provided people that have been incarcerated for six months or more?

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: Everything we can. Which? We can get, like I was saying before, we can get a

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: What would be what's required and then what do you do?

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: We don't get much time in this area so it's kind of like super questionable. It's a little outside our area of normal so we don't know how it works at all.

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: Most people who get released from a foreign reservation are under some field supervision So they leave jail, go to ABC residents, and then they have a probation officer who keeps going in the community. We find identification documentation. Most people are required to have housing before they can release. So we find either transitional housing or private residence, that kind of thing. We have the eleven fifteen waiver started in January, which allows us to provide services ninety days pre release and then up to six months post release for things like telehealth so the person can meet and greet their doctor and therapist and substance abuse disorder counselor and meet all those people while they're incarcerated and get a relationship going. That way when they go to the community, hopefully they will just keep going to see those people, that kind of thing. We make sure that they have a ride. If someone doesn't have a driver's license and doesn't have a person to drive them, keep we that in consideration for where they can release to. Are they close to public transportation? Can we give you a bus schedule? Are your doctors, for example, all on the bus route? We take all of that into consideration. We set them up with turning points around the state who accolades, kind of scoop them up and say, Okay, this is what you have, this is what you need, let's go get it. So there's community partners who help as soon as the person walks out the door. Department of Corrections make sure that they have everything they possibly can before they actually leave. Representative Burke? I was just going to say, getting back to the issue of the double hearing in two places, Senator Harrison is chair of Senate institutions and is on the Transportation Committee, so it might be worth having a conversation with them.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Let's see what her plans

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: are. Thank you.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Other questions? We're getting into a whole area of new learning for our committee and whatnot. Do we want to move on to section five while we're here? Is that the next, right? Or is that included in this one's section two and section three?

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: What is that one?

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Well, I'm not sure. Maybe it was all entitled together. Puts Okay, if learner permit is number four and learner's permits and the only difference is that it wasn't offered before, it's going to be offered.

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: That's correct. And it's in a different section just because it's thank you. They're broken out in our title. Specifically, permits are under one section. IDs are one section, licenses are a different section. So that's why. But we are adding or did add per the language to expand to permits, knowledge of the same.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: And if you've been more than three years, you have to get a permit, you can't get a license renewal.

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: That's correct. If your license is expired for more than three years, you have to start your retesting process over again. For a permit, your permit is only good for two years, also just to distinguish the difference on that. So in that language of the head action, it is talking about that a permit hasn't expired for more than two years.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: As as the agenda part goes, are they lumped together, both of these pieces together?

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: It is. Yeah, the topic is, for sure. Okay.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: I guess then we don't really we covered it.

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: Gotcha.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Anybody else have any other questions? Anybody want to learn a little bit more about fractions while we have somebody here? Maybe you can remind us again how many possible opportunities this will help. What's the number of times? What are we looking at for how many anticipated additional individuals will be helped by this?

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: Additional individuals. We averaged out over the last five years and it's about 40 people a year.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: To be new to the group. And how many are getting a non driver's ID now?

[Monique Sullivan (Department of Corrections Operations Manager)]: Yeah, about 500 a year.

[Nancy Prescott (DMV Director of Operations)]: And the cost for DMV is $3 a credential. That is not including employee time to process for the shipping costs, but to print it to have the physical credentials $3 at T and P's cost, just for reference on that.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Okay. Any other questions? Then I would say that I thank you very much for coming and thank you for your happy peace and getting into a little bit of a different area. And we are adjourned until 11:00.