Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Speaker 0]: Live yet, but there it is. It is live now. Back again on Wednesday, 03/11/2026. I think we have Patrick Murphy in on Zoom and our alleged counsel, Damian Leonard, is the chair. I apologize. I missed an hour on constituent work this morning on mileage based user fee. I guess I'm not sure if I defer a little bit here to say, do you wanna catch me up on by saying what we think we need to work on more? Or do want to pick up where we left off and get through other issues that are there? And so that we can kind of know what what other work we need to do. Sorry, I put you on the spot a little bit there, but I'm not sure exactly where we left it off, but we need to pick up and make sure we've gotten through all of the mileage based user fee language, and then all of the questions that we have as a committee and what testimony we need to hear about moving that forward. So maybe Damian can help me, maybe Patrick, maybe wherever somebody else wants to see where we left off and where we're picking up.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Give me just a second here. For the record, I'm Damian Leonard from the Office of Legislative Council. Patrick, do you wanna introduce yourself?

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: Yep. For the record, Patrick Murphy, state policy director for the agency.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Alright.

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: Okay.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: So let me get back to where we were. There were a number of questions, and I think the committee agreed to strike section forty three zero eight, which is the records retention. This is language that's really more closely tied to it was based on language for distributors and dealers, wholesale dealers for gas and diesel fuel. And in the case of this program, all of the odometer readings should be with the state. So there's it's not the same sort of record keeping. We were just starting in on the powers of the commissioner, which is forty three zero nine. And I'm gonna pull that up on the screen, and we'll go from there. Did I miss anything, Patrick?

[Speaker 0]: You were asking Patrick first, right? Or not? Otherwise, we'll go to representative So

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I'm just I know that we were questioning the reference inspection given that if you're going to your annual inspection, the records are Getting? Well, your mileage is being reported at the inspection. But there was discussion about if you're someone who is prepaying or taking a photo of your mileage. So one consideration is that we say if you are opting to obtain a plan and take photos of your odometer to submit to the state, you need to keep your records for one year. But if you're using the inspection process, then there's no reason to keep your records.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Right. So that brings us back to probably a good starting point. So Patrick had brought up that one of the options would be a pay as you go Yeah. Option that's not in the current draft language. So I would have to add that. Conceivably, what you can include is just that there's records retention requirements for pay as you go. And that may I'm not sure if you want I'm not sure whether the best way to approach that would be to be as stringent as this, which is more of like a tax record keeping or to set something up where the department can set up requirements for record keeping and so forth to ensure compliance with the requirements of the program or the accuracy of reporting. And I could work on that language with Patrick and then write something back. Patrick, do you want to chime in on that? I see your hands up.

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: Yeah, thank you. I brought up the possibility of the pay as you go system, the self reporting of odometer readings as you go, in order to make sure that there's, so there's the earlier section about penalties for any sort of misrepresentations in the reporting, which could potentially happen with a self reporting mechanism that's set up. In this case, though, the records retention I don't think is necessary, whether it's for self reporting or it's through the annual inspection process. So you're still with any photo that you're going to be basing your self report on, it's still going to go into the system at DMV and be recorded in the same way that you're going to have your other odometer readings recorded from the safety inspection. So I don't think that this section of language is needed either.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Exception. Answers my question. I can't Exception. 4308.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: That's 4308. Alright. So I what I hear is 4308 is okay to come out. K.

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: And so just going back, I don't I don't know if you've touched on the chair had left maybe at that time, the $10 penalty.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Right. We can that's back in

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: There's just a few discussion points that we had after the chair had left that I think you'd wanna resolve this afternoon so you can build that into the next draft.

[Damian Leonard (Legislative Counsel)]: Right. So that $10 penalty would be for the pay as you go late fee or late fee in general. I'm trying to remember where we were, and I apologize to the committee.

[Speaker 0]: I think we're I don't know either. I'm gonna take But I

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: think we were had conversations of basically going away from the incremental penalties for like your tax bill for being late, being ramped up a certain percentage.

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: So section forty three zero four. Yeah. And I apologize. It's just it's hard. I don't know how small or large I appear on your screen or when you can see my raising hand or not, but

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: can see it.

[Speaker 0]: You're small but the text is big. Patrick, just feel free given the situation to sort of, I'd appreciate if you just go ahead whenever you have a chance to speak to start you will adjust. I'm confident in your performance here in the committee all these years, so please go ahead when you are there and we will stop and adjust.

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: Thank you. I just didn't want to interrupt.

[Speaker 0]: I appreciate that.

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: So going back to section 4,304, the failure to file a report or pay a fee resulting in the administrative penalty of $10 what we had discussed is that that section wouldn't be needed. In effect, we have a default higher flat fee in order to gain compliance, and there's no moving on from that until you pay that flat fee to be able to actually obtain a registration. So it seems just to duplicate something where it's really not necessary. You're gonna end up having to pay that higher flat fee.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Okay, represent Pouech. Yeah, thanks Patrick.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: I just wanna understand that flat fee, the 98 percentile, which you said was, I don't know, close to $500 No.

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: Close to sorry. Close to 375.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Okay. $3.75. Thank you. It it it seems like if you're, you know, self reporting and you're late or you didn't get your inspection, maybe, you know, I wouldn't want that to be like, bang, all of a sudden you're there at the highest thing. So if I'm self reporting and I'm late for a month and I get a warning letter and I say, oh, rats, I forgot. And now I want that self report. You know, my registration hasn't come up yet. Can I go ahead and do that and not have a penalty? Or does I I I just wouldn't want that to be, like, the the one and only penalty you get.

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: Well, so it's not either or, it's not you're either self reporting or you're going and getting safety inspection where the odometer reading is being recorded. You're being asked to do both because that, the self reporting is so that you can sort of keep track of things as you go and pay as you see fit, but the final true up, the reconciliation happens at the registration process, but it happens using the data from the annual safety inspection. So you still have to go through that process, and if there's no data there, then there's no way to really assess whether, you know, what you've been paying all along is covered or not by the miles that you've driven, so it is a key thing to, you know, there's a simple solution for the person who has run into that issue. It's to go and get your vehicle inspected, and then you won't be hit with a default flat fee. But if you don't have that data in the system, then how else would the state verify how many miles you've gone?

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: That that does clarify, but let me just give you another example. My inspection is due in April, and my registration is due in May, and I haven't yet got my inspection done. When my May registration comes, am I hit with that maximum? Or is there a sort of an opportunity to say, hey, hey, hey, you're gonna get hit with this maximum unless you work him out of it.

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: No, in that case you wouldn't have a balance yet, because if you go back to the language, it's defined as the last inspection reading, you know, odometer reading from the inspection. So if your registration, which in many cases would, because you need a registration first before you can actually obtain an inspection in the State of Vermont, but your mileage reporting period as it's defined in this language is between the last two inspection appointments that you've had.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Right.

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: So so that so what you're describing is going you you know, you you don't have an inspection until a month later after the registration, but that's not a part No.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: You you you accidentally didn't get your car inspected the month before when it was due. Then the next month, your registration is due. And so would you get hit with because you haven't you know, my inspection is due in April. My registration is due in May.

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: Yeah. Okay.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: And I I didn't get it inspected for whatever reason. And then in May, my registration comes. Am I hit with the hammer because you don't have the numbers?

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: No. At that at that point, you have two options. I mean, if you want to go ahead and just, like, have the registration processed that day, you would have to pay the flat fee, but if you realize, oh I missed my inspection cycle last month, then you have the ability to take the vehicle to get it inspected, and then to have that data in the system and pay only for that mileage that you've used. I mean the DMV is sending out advanced notice of your registration renewal, and so you have, I think it's a maybe sixty day notice before you actually have to go in and renew your registration. So you would become aware of the need, I'm sure, especially if you're managing things through the MyDMV account, which is how a lot of this will be handled, you'd be able to know, okay, I need to go and get my inspection so that I'm not faced with that alternative of a higher flat fee.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Okay, and just in concern

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: But it's not like an automated thing. Well, you didn't, you know, you didn't get it, so now you're automate automatically hit with that default flat fee. You have the you have choice to be able to actually follow the inspection process or not.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Okay. I I think I you know, and you know where I'm coming from. I wouldn't want that to be like, a surprise that you're head over the head because you didn't realize the the problem that happened by not getting inspected or or self reporting if that's how you're doing. Okay.

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: Yeah, so I mean a part of the system that we're developing is also going to be communication with folks, so that they understand sort of where they are, you know, with things, what the balances are that are owed, and so I think that should help to alleviate some of the issues you're talking about, so you're not getting to the last minute, now you've got to go out and schedule an inspection and maybe your registration has lapsed.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Okay. So just to get to the point, you get that notification of the highest amount of $3.70, even within that notification, you still can go to get your car inspected and then pay the actual amount, or once you get that notification from DMV and say, hey, you owe us this amount, that's it, you've got to pay

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: No, I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying, you have a notice from DMV that either you have a balance or that you have an outstanding inspection and you have an upcoming registration, you will have the ability to go in and get an inspection so that that data can be able to

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: transmit

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: it in the system.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Yeah. Our customer is always able to avoid that higher amount by just going in regardless of when they get the notification.

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: Yeah, that's right. I mean Yeah. Okay.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Going back to this example, don't mean to pick on it, but I go in in April to get my inspection and it doesn't pass and I have to do a bunch of work. Do they still report the mileage at that point as part of the inspection process whether I pass or not?

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: I I believe so. Yeah.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Okay. So even if I don't pass the inspection, because you'd wanna get your mileage reported.

[Patrick Murphy (Agency of Transportation, State Policy Director)]: So I mean, even if they don't, I mean, we're working with both vendors. So I I mean, I believe they're still entering in the odometer readings, but even if they don't, that's gonna be a part of the scope of work for the vendor that manages the inspection stations. We're also looking at how to have a more automated validation of that data so that it's not just based on the entry of the you know, mechanic typing something in, but also based on the photo that can be hard to sort of manipulate, you know, so there's there's going to be built into that process odometer readings taken whether you pass or not.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Okay, thank you.

[Speaker 0]: I realize your hands up, Representative White. The floor is in, like, eight minutes. I can't keep you guys from going to the floor. Patrick and Damian, I guess, we left most of tomorrow open. I don't know what your availability is exactly. We're gonna have to try to find a way to regroup around your schedules to keep working through this mileage based user fee as much as possible the next week and a half here, particularly tomorrow and whatnot. So we have to adjourn until tomorrow morning and you will expect a couple of different things. A long floor session tomorrow is what I've been warned about. Secondly, we're going to have some flexibility. We're working through mileage based user fee and transportation alternatives. And we have a couple of other, we only have one outside testimony, but two different other subjects on the agenda. Other than the one outside person, it's entirely flexible within the committee and then what Patrick and David are available and what's happening. So I expect a little flexibility and a little or expect a few changes in direction. What it says on the schedule is basically we're working on the three or four issues that we know about for the TA deal, we will be adjusting schedules according to who's