Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Okay. Oh, I'm sorry. So there's the block. So good afternoon, and welcome back on Thursday, 02/05/2026 in house transportation. Are joining we're jumping back in. T Bill is where we're at. We're 11 pages, but we're going to section four, but we're trying to get the agency's take on each of the sections, and then also trying to understand who else might be impacted and who else we need to hear from after we understand what it is they're asking for and why they want changes to the law. So Doreen is with us from the agency. If you introduce yourself and take over. Good afternoon.

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: For the record, my name is Dorian Carmanetti. I am the chief of contract administration for the agency of transportation, and we're here to discuss section four of the transportation bill, which happens to also be on page four of your draft packet. We are initially proposing just a technical edit to align the bonding threshold with the updates made to state bulletin point five, which was increasing the simplified bid threshold from 100,000 to $250,000, that would align oh, yes?

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: Are you are you referencing the T Bill, the current T Bill? Yes. Okay. Thank you. And and what page are

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: It's you section four, and it should be page four. Thank you. Would you like me to repeat that?

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: I got it. Okay. So

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: that is the first edit that we are proposing is the

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: technical edit. Would you mind repeating that? Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah, sure.

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Are. So we're proposing a technical edit To align the bonding threshold with the updates made to state bulletin 3.5, which increased the simplified bid threshold from 100,000 to 250,000. So that is just to propose to get it in line with the state bulletin. The other, item that we are proposing is to include the emergency, process with the inclusion of bonding being waived during immediate emergencies when contractors are deployed instantly to preserve life safety and state property. And, once that direct threat is eliminated or stabilized, we halt and we go back to our regular, procurement process for the permanent work.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Is this something that's come into play a number of or before or how or why?

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: I think that this was introduced a few years ago, but I don't think it came as far as coming to the house.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: What happens differently now than what's gonna happen under this language, I guess?

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Well, normally, if a project is a $100,000 or less, the secretary can waive the bonding requirements, which are a performance bond to make sure they do their job right and according to codes, and a payment bond to ensure that they pay subcontractors and materialmen. If we raise the threshold to $250,000 we would open up to, waive bonds for additional projects up to the 250,000 limit. We did a little data checking, that really equates to about 12 to a dozen, additional contracts for a standard year.

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Representative Pouech? Yeah. I mean, this all makes sense. So is the secretary approach with each one and say, do you wanna waive the bond on this? Or is he like if it's under right today, if it's under a 100, we're waiting.

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah. When emergencies happen, we usually send a form that he does a determination to say that he will do a notice to proceed so all the contractors can immediately go out. We're gonna include on that line if he will waive the bonding for the event. If it's a small event, it would be a particular contractor. But when it's a widespread event like 2023, it would be a waiver for all contractors. These are contractors that have contracts with us, so it's not anyone new. We already have the micro contract. They've been vetted, and they have active and compliant insurance.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Is it mostly an issue of 100,000 is not a whole lot? Mean, is this an inflation issue?

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah. As you're aware, it costs a lot more to build things nowadays. And there's hardly any projects that are well, there's not many projects that are under a 100,000. So this would help us mediate and save costs for our smaller contractors who tend to do this work.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Is there a reason not to be $3.50 or 500? Is there any discussion of that or what? What limits to what's $2.50 and would $3.50 make a difference in 500? Or should there be an inflation built in so we're not revisiting it again in the next number of years? So there's two different questions there. But why not three fifty or why not 500? And then why not an inflation builder of some sort? Does it make a difference? What's the

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: We chose

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: I picked that number.

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: 50 because it aligns with bulletin 3.5. For many, many years, our threshold for simplified bid was a $100,000, and that lined up with the statute for bonds. And just, I believe, in December '23, we updated state bulletin 3.5, and they increased the simplified bid threshold to two fifty. So we thought that would be a good thing to just have it aligned the same.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Can you, for me, state bulletin, not something I'm very familiar with before, just getting some other members questions as they shake their heads.

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Absolutely. For

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: those of us that don't know, what does it mean to be state bulletin for you?

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: State bulletin 3.5 is our state guidance on procurement and contracting.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Statewide for every agency? Yes.

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: AOA, the agency of administration handles the updates and oversees that bulletin.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Okay. I'm sure all of you do that. So I don't know. Do. Don't know. But is there a downside to not doing this? There's a downside to doing it and downside to not doing it?

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: I think there's a downside to not do it because it increases cost to our smaller contractors who are the ones that are obviously doing most of this 250 and less work. It does slow down the process. Bids take Bonds take a few days to get. It's a lot of administrative burden to do that. And the upside is the change to incorporate emergency clarifies that we can waive that during an emergency for any level of cost.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Anybody have any other? You mentioned it's going to be probably going up by 150,000. You're going to add potentially another 12 to it. What does it add in 12 to? What's the

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: In 2023, when we had our major flooding event, it was about 25 task orders, projects that went over the $100,000 limit or under that we could waive. And then between two fifty and less, there was another 12 to 15 added on top of that.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: So you're talking about 37, or under 50? Yes. Representative Warren?

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: And by waiving or increasing the threshold, just allows AOT to respond more quickly to send vendors on the job without having to wait to get the paperwork.

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yes. It also in emergencies, it's just get the people out there and get them doing what they need to do. And with the regular work, it does shorten the time to get everything finalized and and get them out to mobilize for the regular work as well. There

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: was notes when we were presented from council on page six nine a. I note that our council had made a slight change to your language or had added a line regarding active payment of taxes, state and municipal, and then added payment of unemployment insurance contributions. Then there became a discussion about whether we had to list out more items or it should be all sort of included in encompassing the payment of taxes, all applicable taxes or something. Have you seen the lines like thirteen, fourteen, 15 in that section for, I think our alleged counsel said he had He said something. Adjust that language a little bit. Particularly that payment of unemployment insurance. You certainly welcome to my copy or Maybe I misunderstood what he said. I just want to make sure there's no I thought he had said he'd make an adjustment to that line. I have a note right here, Legis Council added a couple of that line about payment of unemployment insurance and has In

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: the jail time?

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: AOT should make a comment on that. My note from our Legg Council presentation finds twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, section 9A, well, I guess it's probably other, I think it's 9A. 9A.

[Maureen Harper (Deputy Director, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Maureen Harper, Deputy Director of Division And I can say that we did some research before bringing this forward. And it's been at least twenty, if not thirty years, that nobody could recall ever us calling the bond, calling the bond because of non compliance. So, I just thought I'd bring that forward, that we can increase, this is a rarity that we have to call them

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: on. Okay, thank you. I believe that the reason he put in unemployment insurance is because it says payment of taxes, both state and municipal period and insurance is not taxes. Didn't a few years ago,

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey (Member)]: remember when Rochester got messed up, some bridges were taken out and stuff. I can't storm was that? That was just a few years ago.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: A couple of storm I need?

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey (Member)]: Possibly. Yeah, I can't. The governor stepped in did something and got everybody

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: They said they don't care what you do, just get it done.

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey (Member)]: They got it done. So

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: they waived everything.

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey (Member)]: So he could actually step in anyways and then waive all them bonding issues anyways. And so this bonding, the increase in in in, where you don't have to be bonded, I guess I lost my train of thought on that one, guys.

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: That is really pertains to also the just regularly scheduled work. The emergency work always takes precedence. It's get out there and get it taken care of, but the threshold also includes just regularly scheduled repair and maintenance that we would be doing, to assist in decreased costs for the smaller contractors and to speed up their ability to be able

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: to go and start work.

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey (Member)]: There won't be any any risk to the state or to the taxpayers. Right?

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: No. Absolutely not. I actually spoke with risk management at the AOA's office, and they were supportive of this change.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: I'm good. Thanks. Any other questions, concerns, comments? How about the question of who else would possibly be impacted by this that could have something to say? Something to testify, a comment, a concern. Who would be impacted parties that could potentially want or not want this change?

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: We took into consideration the actual contractors, and we reached out to the associated general contractors Contractors Group, and Mr. Wahby did reach out to some of his major highway contractors to see their thoughts, and, the AGC was supportive of the change as well.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Yeah. Used to be much better than it used to be Sarah.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: I think he's doing it all.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: It's all different now. Was talking about the moving chairs. Yes. Yes. In that case, okay. Yeah. Anybody have any other thoughts about this particular piece? Thank you very much for coming in. I very much appreciate it. Thank

[Dorian Carmanetti (Chief of Contract Administration, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: you for inviting me.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Laureen was clearly well prepared.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: I love contracting.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: You have to be convinced that I can certainly tell you that. She certainly left me the impression she knows what she's doing.

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Wonderful to work with for fifteen, twenty years now. Excellent.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Yeah. Excellent. I certainly was convinced that she knew what she was talking about. So I was certainly convinced that she knew what she was talking

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: about. Not

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: an area that probably a lot of people know a lot about. Let's move to section seven. A really short piece. Ross, I'm sorry to drag you all the way in here for the short section. But I appreciate you coming back and hopefully have other things going on. We're doing our due diligence to try to understand what's in the T bill, why you're asking for it, what the change is, what does it impact, and why we shouldn't do more or less or whatever it is. So that's just what we're doing when we go through the language and introduce Head it to you and introduce and everybody flip over to page ten eleven, section seven.

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ross McDonald, public transit program manager. And this is housecleaning effort based on some changes to the membership of the Public Transit Advisory Council, of which representative Burke sits on. And the community, so these are the folks who are appointed to the council. And we used to have a representative from the Community of Vermont Elders or COVE, and that program has since folded. Concurrent to that, we've been working with AARP for many, many years and Kelly started poor. And we have asked her to replace the former COVE representative. And she's been at all of our PTAC meetings for the last year plus and and is somebody we we work with quite a bit. So that's change that that makes all the all the sense in the world. And then the other one was we would have a private bus operator, taxi services, and a representative from Vermont, intercity private bus operators. In the past, it was maybe a little difficult to get some intercity bus membership to participate, folks at Greyhound and Mega Bus and those things. Right now, have Premier Coach who is running our intercity services along Route 7, as well as representing the private bus operators. And so really through that one membership, we're getting representation from both of those perspectives. And I'll be running up there next Wednesday to meet with them just to review their contract with us and their services. Chip Desertile, their operations manager has been a P Tech participant consistently for five years now or more. So those are the changes that will just allow us to better reflect those who are coming to our quarterly public transit advisory council meetings. We do have some work to do to there's always some transitions through representatives with agencies and the like, but you know, would defer to representative Mollie Burke to to weigh in if there's any holes in the representation, but those that's all we need as it relates to this section.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Members of the piece, any people are on the board.

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Board, council, the councilors there's. 17 folks and we invite about 30 people because we have some regional planning commissions who want to join us, our planning shop, to help us coordinate. A lot of the changes in the last five years have been participation through other agencies. Department of Health and Division of Aging and Independent Living are working with us and participating in an increased level than when I started so many years ago.

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey (Member)]: Yeah. On that list, you can find.

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Sure. On our PTAC list, I'll leave this with you. And the highlights are somewhere where I need replacement for the person from ACCD and those types of things. Yeah.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Great. Yeah. You're welcome. Thanks. So they're taking 17 voting members and, you know, 38 invite or sort

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: of like, there's some support. Interested parties, advocates, we may be talking about an issue and having a category expert come in to talk about those

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: But turn it on voting.

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: That's correct.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Yeah, so I'm assuming maybe the 30, I guess my question is of the 30 extra people, has there been any requests for Ben to be a voting member? I know you have AARP, sounds like they're well suited for it, but has there been other requests outside of the RRP for being a voting member on that thing?

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: There haven't been. Is from our internal review with Michelle, my director at the time, just reviewing who's coming, who's going, and should we restate some of this membership just to better reflect the participation.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: No, that's great. Just wanted to know if somebody else we should.

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: If that were the case, we certainly would be open to having the more participation perspectives have been valuable.

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey (Member)]: Anybody else have questions?

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Just asked our committee assistant to check and see if Damian can come a little earlier for the next piece. We could have used this time this morning. Representative Burton?

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: I just wanted to say that I think it's a very long and long period or early, maybe three months, to discuss specific issues, sometimes it's the policy plan, sometimes it's just different issues that are public transit related, helpful for these legislators, you know, but also I think just to come together with a variety of different state lines and opponents.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Looking at it without seeing any of that. It's taking the direction of public transit on a whole other area. We just received a I think all the House members received an update from Free Mountain Transit, but that would get us down into a whole different level of discussions and pieces, unless there is anything else you wanna update us on and whatnot. Representative Casey, you

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey (Member)]: have a question? What's electric buses doing?

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Not great. Not, as we discussed in the budget testimony, the charging and those new flyers, the six that are up there that are waiting to be, fixed, as you saw, they're looking at what representative Keyser had mentioned, which is our compensation for the downtime. We did rally the other providers to provide to offer more vehicles to GMT to to make up for those. Generally, our fleets have about a 15 to 20% spare ratio. And so those six are well within that 20%. It's not ideal when they are running in advanced transit, the sprinters, warm weather, everyone likes them. But we have those challenges to overcome. And it was really disappointing to see after all those investments in time, the procurements, the delays in delivery, getting them on the road. And as I mentioned in March, we'll have that snapshot of the operational impacts of all of those electric vehicles. I'll I'll be making sure that

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey (Member)]: you guys could copy that. They they've been otherwise, they work alright. Are actually down? Is it just the coal that's taking them out right now? I mean, it's like, say, by six weeks or just according to the woodchuck, six weeks, you should be able to pull them out and

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: Yeah. That would check a little bit more this year to our operations than in the past. I even if this was next year, the in the indoor charging project will have been completed at GMT. Even with those vehicles not being able to be charged at 40 degrees or less, they would have that option to go inside and be charged next year. So we're catching up with that facility fit up. Okay. But it's not, but the timing hasn't worked for this season. So if

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey (Member)]: they were inside, you probably would have the outcome. You could probably go out and run them and then be all right for the day. That's right. Last the day,

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: did it? Yeah. And so the larger buses have the range to cover more than 80% of our routes, even under those cold conditions. But if you can't charge them inside because of rules, regulations, we don't have the sprinkler system up and running, those types of things, and then they're stuck outside and then we can't charge them

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: up

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey (Member)]: there. That's gonna be all set. That's correct.

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: And we do expect to be able to charge the buses outside in the future once these batteries are are recalled and get fixed. Oh, you gotta take the batteries or

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey (Member)]: you gotta take the batteries right out if they freeze or something? I would

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: I don't know what the exact issue is, and I wouldn't wanna speak to the mechanical fix. Yeah. No. No. No. No. No. No.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Either replaced or fixed. Silvanic. Don't know if

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: No. They're No. Gonna No. Take care of it. Yeah. Buy a bus.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Would that. Would have to be do you wanna take that one? I

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: wanna clarify. In this case, the company who provided the buses is recalling the batteries because there's some kind of defect and that they're saying, hey, don't charge them, you know, inside. And so, you know, once the batteries are replaced by the company and potentially some additional funds to cover the additional costs because of this problem, they should be back on the road and chocked fine.

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: That is the plan.

[Rep. Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: So, you know, it's not necessarily the technology of battery buses, but these particular batteries were bad in the same way any car might have a recall for whatever it might be.

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: You really rush these manufacturers to the market and we're starting to see some of those impacts on freight.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: When you originally purchased, when the purchase was made, the specs were going to allow them to charge under 41 degrees. Absolutely. This is part of what we call that That's right. Didn't buy a bus that said Of course you did. You didn't buy the buses. The buses weren't bought knowing they could never use them under 41 degrees. That's exactly right. They were expected to be able to charge them below freezing.

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: When we're in these new dynamic areas, all I know is what the last salesperson tells me, I'm afraid. And when we send out the specs and they bid without a lot of history to look on, we really are trusting the manufacturer to follow through on their commitments. And that's why we're hoping those contract parameters will allow for some compensation.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Still are all outside in colors, that would be right. Bad sight. Bad optics, right? It's bad optics, but it

[Rep. James "Jim" Casey (Member)]: Earth building's bad optics.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Does anybody know what the company's gonna be solid for all of us? Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, is that?

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: We haven't heard anything to the contrary, but this is certainly something that their insurances are going to have to cover. And it was an unforeseen cost for them, I'm sure. The Gilligs that we have, which are traditionally the better bus, the best bus you can buy in the market, those electric vehicles came on the market a few years after New Flyer and they're performing as billed. And I remember my predecessor telling me, We'll buy electric buses when Gillig comes up with an electric bus. Because then she would have that confidence. I think about that a lot, especially when my wife comes down to see the Snowhawks. And it's like, do not see that happen.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Well, we can say thank you for coming in. We can move to a level of discussion if we like, or we we can, asked Damon to come in a few minutes early, he's sort of on his way. And so, it was almost like

[Ross MacDonald (Public Transit Program Manager, Vermont Agency of Transportation)]: we were going to do.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Great timing. You. We're working bundles. All of our providers, sadly we can adjourn until he shows up. Yeah, I'd like to say that these are too horrible sessions, but they're all text videos. Something So what will happen is then we'll ask them to confirm their position on that and then I'll look at whatever's left there. And then we'll do that thing where we'll go through and thumb up each section and see where we're at from there. And then we'll We're going back to the budget, we're going back with the other pieces. But as far as the t bill goes, unless something changes, the initial version will get thumbed up all the way through here fairly soon, suspect. Most people have any thumbs down section.