Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: And we are live. Back again in house transportation on Tuesday, 01/13/2026, and our presentation, scheduled for the next, hour, or as long as it might take or less. Getting an update on vehicle sales and what's happened since we left last May. What's happened in the world of sales and vehicles in Vermont, electric vehicles, internal combustion engine vehicles, and anything else related to car sales, models, makes, and what else is up and down in the six plus months since we've been here that has such a major influence on our revenues, etcetera. So I welcome Mr. Matt Cota representing the Vermont Vehicle and Automotive Dealers Distributors Association. So happy new year. Welcome back to the committee. We're looking to bring everybody up to speed on all of the data that you gather in your association or your members do and share it with us

[Matt Cota]: as best you can. Thank you. I appreciate that, Chair Walker. Thank you for having me back. For the record, my name is Matt Cota. My firm is called Meadow Hill. And I work for a number of nonprofit trade associations, including, with relevance to this committee, the Vermont Vehicle and Automobile Distributors Association, which represents new and used car sellers in Vermont and truck sellers, as well as the Vermont Transportation Energy Network, which is a collaboration of vehicle sellers and gasoline providers. We collect this data because we think it is of value not only to our members, but to the public and to policymakers. And we house it at vermont10.org. An individual that has helped me collect this information, verify it, and also helps with our regulatory information at the Vermont Vehicle and Auto Motor Distributors Association is Mike Smith, to my right. Mike retired from the Department of Motor Vehicles in December 2024, and he's a valuable resource to the Auto Dealers Association, not only helping us with regulatory issues, as you can imagine, there's quite a few, but also runs our Vermont AutoCap program, which is a collaboration that we have, the auto dealers have, with the attorney general's office to ensure that consumers that have a dispute over a vehicle purchase have an opportunity to mediate that dispute. And Mike handles that for the Auto Vehicles Association and is available for any questions that I simply can't answer. So one of the things that we do collect in addition to information, but of relevance to this committee, I'll just go over it very briefly, which is fuel sales. Fuel sales directly correlate with revenue raised put in the transportation fund. We sell about two eighty million gallons of gasoline every year and about 60,000,000 gallons of diesel fuel. That collects about $100,000,000 for the transportation fund. Over the last five years, our sales have been flat, very flat. They haven't gone up, but they haven't really gone down either. The biggest change in sales for gasoline and diesel occurred in 2020. That's, of course, during the pandemic. And they have since increased, but not to the level they were pre pandemic. And I think that's a combination of factors. Certainly, the advent of more different powertrains, more efficient internal combustion engine vehicles. But also, people have the opportunity to work from home or to take meetings from home and not travel such long distances. Diesel remains steady throughout because it's largely used by service industry to move goods and services around the state. When we look at the data on vehicles sold in Vermont and by the way, all of our data comes from Experian Auto Account Accelerate, which is a subscription service that we apply to. It comes in the form of raw spreadsheets with details about everything from the color of cars that are most popular to what type of vehicles are sold in which areas of the state to how vehicles are purchased. We try to collect just the most relevant stuff to communicate them to policymakers and to our members. But this one just stuck out. So as we look back at reports from aggregators of information, we see that across The United States, sales of US light duty vehicles have increased by about 2.3%. But that did not happen here in Vermont in 2025. In Vermont, sales of used vehicles had decreased by 11% from 2024, and new vehicles decreased by 8%. We sell about 100,000. Vermonters purchase and register about 100,000 cars a year. When I say purchase and register, it means they may have purchased it in Vermont, but they absolutely registered them in Vermont. They may have purchased it in Vermont, registered in New Hampshire. But this is just looking at those vehicles that paid the purchase and use tax and got a green plate and put it on their car, and those numbers have gone down. Now, the natural response that I've gotten when I've showed this information is, yeah, but our purchase and use tax didn't decline by 8% and by 11%? Yes, because it's based on price, not based on units, whereas most of our gas tax comes on units, gallons, not on the price.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Thanks for providing this data. Did get a little testimony about this sort of loophole in registering used vehicles back in the COVID. You had this opportunity to sort of print your own registration, I guess, or your own plate. And so that was a little bit of a concern that some people might slip in through the getting away with not paying, but we don't really know if that's a lot. Is that a concern to your group and or do you have any other reasons why the actual number of vehicles registered got down regardless of the tax.

[Matt Cota]: Yes, so representing an industry that wants to sell vehicles, there's lots of theories into why our numbers aren't. Some suggest that perhaps we had a banner 2024 year and that we're reverting back to the mean. But we can see from reading the reports that car loans are getting more expensive, cars are getting more expensive, repos are increasing. So that's a telltale sign that the economy is going in the wrong direction. Not always, when you dig deeper in the numbers, you sort of see what people are buying and why, if that's Okay. I can step into that.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: So

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: could it also be because the cars are so much more expensive, people hold on to their cars longer? Absolutely. In fact, it's in 2018.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Matt, you had mentioned as far as the economy and the fuel

[Matt Cota]: sales at 60,000,000 gallons year in year out, doesn't seem to

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: go up or down based on an economic driver of some sort. That demand just remains steady whether times are perhaps better or worse. Interesting it doesn't seem to really go up and down by amount of the economy in terms of spending economy that we have out there, the consumer economy. You wouldn't think that it would go up if there's more mobility going on, and just kind of curious that there doesn't seem to be

[Matt Cota]: any change. Certainly this is on road diesel, these are diesel that goes into bus four through eight trucks. All the goods to get them. But cows don't take a day off, and you still have to drive a Class eight tractor trailer truck twice a day from Irisburg to Springfield, Massachusetts, to the AgriMart facility every day. So those diesel gallons don't go away. But yeah, you would think that in certain industries

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: that are finished that are coming in from projects, etcetera, you think that you can see they don't necessarily have that right I guess. I find it interesting that there's no economic you wouldn't compare an economic driver number next to that, it's just continuously flat.

[Matt Cota]: Yeah, and certainly diesel cars are harder to get. So these are all I drive a diesel car, but for sure, diesel is going into Class four through eight trucks.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: We missed far off, but No, that's okay. We got time.

[Matt Cota]: So the top 20 new vehicle makes, this is purchased and registered in Vermont through twelve months of 2025. And you can see the 20 most popular makes when it comes to models. RAV4, year after year, continues to be most popular vehicle, followed by Subarus. When you look at used vehicles, similar situation. You think of the top five brands, both in the new and used vehicle categories, represent more than half of the vehicles sold. The top 10 used vehicles by model, you might see some familiar votes on there. You also see and this is not unusual, given our geography that the top models, half of them are trucks or are big SUVs. When we look at powertrains, we're still predominantly gasoline, 3% diesel. Gas electric hybrid, those are increasing. But battery electric vehicles and plug in hybrid electric vehicles, still about 10%. This is through 2025, through the calendar year 2025. We look at battery electric vehicles and plug in hybrid electric vehicles by make, Top sellers, not Tesla. It's Hyundai in Vermont. Top 10 new BEVs and PHVs by model. Again, the Hyundai Ioniq has been a pretty big seller. It's important to note that these these words or these acronyms are kinda thrown out there, to understand PHV versus BEV versus HEV. BEV, there is no tank. It is all electric. PHAV, there's a plug, but there's also a tank. Conventional hybrid or HEV, no plug, but it is producing a gas tank that is producing, powering the battery that allows it to get superior for better gas mileage than a conventionalized vehicle. Conventionalized vehicles, about 33 miles per gallon, you're gonna get forty, forty five, 50 in most models of hybrid electric vehicles.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Percent Burke?

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: Maybe it's on here. We talked about it in the past. Do you know what percentage of battery electric vehicles, Southern hybrid electric vehicles, represent up to total vehicles registered?

[Matt Cota]: Yeah, so not just new, but total.

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: Just what does it represent?

[Matt Cota]: Right. If you look at and I don't have that chart, but I will supply it. If you look at all of the vehicles, and there's close to half a million registered vehicles in Vermont, the plug ins, EVs, and plug in hybrids represent about 3%.

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: How much? 3%. 3%, wow.

[Matt Cota]: That's new and used existing registrations. That's not sales.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Sales was a 15%,

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: or close to 1515%.

[Matt Cota]: Percent.

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: I was asking you

[Matt Cota]: There are different numbers. There's the universe of cars that we have owned and driven for fifteen years, and we still register them. Then there's the universe of used cars that are bought new to us, but are actually used. And then there's the universe of new cars that are new to individuals. That's the higher number, of course, the new.

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: Just because when we were talking about the registration fees, we talked about

[Matt Cota]: it and

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: comprising 50% of the fleet, which is what's true now.

[Matt Cota]: Well, and I'll show you in the next slide, if it's Okay, Representative Burke. Here is, in 2025 compared to 2024, BEVs, burelectric, plug in hybrid electrics, gas plus plug, HEVs, no plug. And we've seen a decrease. This is the first year. It's the first year in five years that we've seen a decrease in the number of battery electric vehicles sold versus prior year. A 20% drop in battery electric vehicles in 2025, new battery electric vehicles, than we had in 2024. When it comes to plug in hybrid electric vehicles, a 28 decrease. Now, some of that is because the manufacturers are either going pure electrics or they're sticking to hybrid. Toyota is an example of someone that has been committed to doing hybrid electric vehicles rather than plug in hybrids. Hybrid electric vehicles, again, where you're getting that 10 to 15 mile per gallon greater fuel efficiency, those are increasing. It's being blocked by my thing, but Nope, 19%. Up 19%. Representing Pouech, I have a question for you if you can

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: get it. And I'm assuming this includes leases. Yes. Yeah, okay. Yes.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: So

[Matt Cota]: another data point which I thought was interesting. So $7,500 was a was a tax credit that you got to knock off your federal taxes, or if you leased it off the top of the bill, if you bought a vehicle, battery electric vehicle. This was a very compelling, sales pitch to get people to purchase battery electric vehicles. The Trump administration eliminated this in at July 1, HR one, big, beautiful bill. And one of the things they did was they put they didn't eliminate it immediately. They eliminated it as of 09/30/2025. So what we saw nationally is you had dealers with electric vehicles on their lot with a pretty compelling sales pitch. Hey, come on down. The $7,500 is going to go away. You need to take take order of this vehicle, put down a deposit on this vehicle before September 30. You have to drive it off the lot on September 30, but you had to put down a deposit. And and so we thought that September and October would be huge months for sales of battery electric vehicles. Because if you want to buy one or you're thinking of buying one, better buy in September. Don't wait until January. And nationally, we did see that. We saw an uptick in bad electric vehicle sales in September with the closure of that tax credit. We didn't see that in Vermont, though. We did not see a large increase, which tells me that people that wanted electric vehicle purchased electric vehicle already. And then in December, we saw a tremendous drop off.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: But if you testified last year,

[Matt Cota]: science fell off. I think that's representative of Wells' hammer down. But our So I did. But our highest our highest in terms of selling battery electric vehicles, vehicles that do not have any gas at all, was in September, October 2024. And I am hard pressed to tell you why those two months were so successful.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Represent Pouech. Some of the slides are not in there.

[Matt Cota]: The slides

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: we have.

[Matt Cota]: Is this

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: one not in there?

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: That one's not in

[Matt Cota]: Okay, I resend it. No worries.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Then the other thing is we're not an island here, so it was like New Hampshire sales sort of while we saw electric vehicles nationwide go up because the tax credits, but not in Vermont. Is that true in like New England? Is it just a Vermont thing or do you think it's more regional or you're not sure?

[Matt Cota]: So I'm not sure. I can tell you there's two ways that I can gather data and we've been fairly consistent with how we do it, which is you can track it based on where the vehicle was purchased or where the vehicle was registered. We choose registration because that is directly connected with purchase and use tax. And when you look at where a vehicle was purchased, someone from New Hampshire, Massachusetts, or New York may have come to Vermont, purchased the vehicle, and then brought it out of state. So we we rather than track that and the numbers are similar. They're not too diff but but this is this is vehicles that we know have green plates on them. And that's sort of how we how we we've situated ourselves. Now what will January look like? Well, we'll know in fourteen days. We get this data pretty quickly. We update it every month to determine whether or not electric vehicle sales continue that December slide or whether December was an anomaly. We don't know. Back to the slide that you've seen before. And so when we track new battery electric vehicles and plug in hybrid electric vehicles, not all plug in hybrid vehicles count or they count at lower rate towards the Advance Clean Car two initiative, which required still alive in some form. It's being litigated right now, and it's being on pause by Governor Scott. But model year 2026, we were to be at 35%. And as we close 2025, again, this is the first time in four years where the number of battery electric vehicles and plug in hybrid vehicles purchased and then registered in Vermont declined. So we're now at 10%. Does that work?

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: That decline also has to do with the end of our state incentives? Absolutely.

[Matt Cota]: But a lot of it has to do with 2020. It's a gumbo, quite honestly, Representative Burke. It's the federal incentive, it's the state incentives, it's the manufacturers pushing it, it's the favorable lease agreements that encourage people to adopt battery electric vehicles. There's a whole bunch of factors that certainly go into whether or not I mean, look at the ads on TV during the Steelers game. I mean, there was a time where every single car manufacturer was talking about their battery electric vehicles. Now it's very difficult to find those ads just casually. The manufacturers have made a pivot. And the dealers in Vermont and elsewhere want to sell, A, vehicles that our manufacturers provide, and B, the vehicles that our customers want. And largely speaking, they want trucks. They want gas powered trucks. It's certainly a gumbo. And the other reason why battery electric vehicles did so well in 2024 is the change in how that $7,500 tax credit is calculated, allowing someone who leases a battery electric vehicle to take that off right off the top. It makes very favorable lease rates for battery electric vehicles. And you heard that in testimony last year from Phil Alderman, who came here from Alderman Chevrolet in Rutland, talking about how there's just some incredible deals out there. And you can see that in the data that we collect about how Vermonters pay for new vehicles. Leasing is about how a third of, if you look at all the vehicles, about a third of how we how we purchase cars. But in BEVs, 70%. So a couple of things. One is might be you might lease a vehicle that you're not sure you're in love with, but you think you like. That's great, and you want something new, or it's favorable rate. But what happens at the end of the lease, as you know, whether it's a twenty four month, thirty six, forty eight, then you have a choice as a consumer. Do I want to purchase the rest of this vehicle, or do I want to drop it off at the dealership and turn it in? Then the dealer has a choice whether or not to purchase that vehicle from the manufacturer who still owns it on the lease, or it goes back to the manufacturer, and then is then sold at auction or transferred to another dealership. So we're gonna learn a lot in the next thirty six months as a lot of these favorable leases come off lease. And what happens with it? Will they be in Vermont and be reused again, be sold again and stay in Vermont? Will they go back to the manufacturer? Will they be shipped somewhere else? We don't know, but there will be some very important decisions that many consumers have over the next twenty four to thirty six months as they turn in those battery electric vehicles. Do they go back to gas? Do they buy another BEV? Do they put out the rest of lease on their BEV? We don't know yet. But it's something that's really important. Now, on that pie chart there,

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: if there was trends over time for the different ways that vehicles are paid for, is that volatile or is that a slow to insisting? In other words, would it change significantly from year to year, meaning half of the vehicle, half of the vehicles are financed. Has that grown over the years or has that volatile? Sometimes it's up higher or lower. Not necessarily have that. I'm just curious if it's changed substantially over ten years or if it don't know about it. It goes every year and goes up and down.

[Matt Cota]: Yeah, Gerard, that's a good question. I don't know about ten years. I could tell you over the last three years that I've been tracking this when all vehicles, roughly half financed, they're at least 20% cash. That's fairly consistent. The 70%, that's just and I checked it with my colleagues in other states. I said, are you seeing this? And they're like and I'm sort of the rookie here they're like, yeah, of course, because of what happened with the $7,500 It just made it so much more attractive. That, plus the manufacturers' discounts to move electric vehicles, certainly inspired that. I don't think that will continue, that 70% number on BEV leases. But I could be wrong. Thank you. That's all I have. I'm happy to answer any other questions that you have about vehicle sales or regulations or anything else to do with the car truck world or oil and gas.

[Candice White (Member)]: Representative White? A comment and a couple questions. Thank So, you for first of all, 500,000 vehicles are registered in the state of Vermont. Only 600 something thousand people. It just that's extraordinary.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Well, that's

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: Jim, you're the problem. Talking I don't know.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: We need him to pay.

[Matt Cota]: Yes, and remember that it also includes businesses that have residential. Yeah,

[Kate Lalley (Member)]: okay.

[Candice White (Member)]: My questions, so I think I've heard you say, but I want to make sure, that electric vehicle incentives drove car sales. Your retailers felt like, I thought I took that from earlier testimony, but Sergeant Wells might have been thinking something different.

[Matt Cota]: I think I tried to hedge my comment by saying it's a bit of a gumbo. There's no question having some sort of a rebate incentive that you can move vehicles helps. And sometimes it comes from the manufacturer who wants to move a particular line. And they're going to give more favorable pricing to the dealers that they can offer to their consumers. Sometimes it comes from a government subsidy or incentive. Sometimes it comes from a federal tax credit. It all play a role in moving these vehicles. I would just say what shocked me when anticipated that because I heard all the ads. Turn on the radio. Turn on the TV. Come on down. This is your last chance to get that $7,500 tax credit. I just assumed that would be a big push in September, October. In fact, I made poor Mike run the numbers 10 times because I said, we should be selling a lot more electric vehicles. Now sometimes there's a lag. So you buy the vehicle on September 30, maybe it doesn't get reported until October 15. So then we reran the numbers on the sixteenth, we didn't see that jump that my colleagues in other states saw. But perhaps they didn't have a banner year in September, October 2024 like we did. So hard to know. So I did expect the end of the federal tax credit to bump EV sales. I was wrong. But I won't say that rebates and incentives don't work. Anything that you have that helps consumers save money and that you can advertise, Free inspections, free car mats, you name it. Three oil years changes. Yeah, free washer fluid. If we were able to

[Candice White (Member)]: get some type of EV incentive back in our state legislation, as a tax credit for car sales, salesmen, these companies that are selling cars. Do you think that would be helpful?

[Matt Cota]: It's hard to know what generic. Would incentives work? Would incentives help? Yes. Would it be worth the cost, the company cost? I don't know. It's hard to know without knowing where the money's coming from. But if

[Candice White (Member)]: it were a tax break for companies, that they could saving on their state income tax, and then passing that on to consumers? Would that be

[Matt Cota]: I'd like to give that some more thoughtful analysis. I really don't know. I know from the sales perspective, it helps to have something to encourage people to come on down and take a drive. But I don't know what works better than others, other than having multiple stacked rebates certainly moved EVs. There's no question with it. Which ones had more effect on consumer, whether it was the federal tax credit or the replace your ride program or the electric utilities credit or the manufacturer's rebate? The favorable lease agreements, could be all of the above, one in particular, I still don't know.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Ms. Burke, are you?

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: Yeah, well I'm just touching here, remembering that

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: we

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: had huge increase in two years leading up to 2025, from 2020 to 2025 the sales of plug ins and battery electric vehicles nearly doubled. That was the year when we had those incentives. Now it's coming down.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Are you all set for December? Are you all set?

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: I'm good.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: I'm sorry. I'm just sending Pouech and

[Matt Cota]: then Rick Lynn McCoy. Yeah, so

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: you know you have the data from the DMV reports and whatnot. Do you have data from dealers or manufacturers who I'm sure like, you know, asking people, hey, you know, EV owners, when you're done with your car, think which kind of car are you planning to buy? Are you going to keep it? Are you not? Is there more sort of even though it's just some data, it's not perfect. Is there more indication there that the trend to move away from EVs is going to build as people change their cars, as these leases come up? I guess you probably said you don't really know yet.

[Matt Cota]: Well, there's a number of consulting firms that do some amazing analysis, survey customers, and I'm happy to send that to you. What I have learned and what I truly believe, which is this. If you have a garage or a dedicated 20 by 10 spot outside your house, you have access to a service panel which will afford you they allow you to use a level two charger, and you have a second vehicle because you have enough money to have a second vehicle that you can take for long trips or trips where maybe you don't want to take your EV, then I think those individuals, generally, from what I hear from dealers, auto dealers, would stick with EVs. Don't go back to gas. But in situations where that is not the case, where they don't have access to a home charger, where they can't get access maybe because of lack of funds or perhaps because they don't have the capacity to have a service panel that can accommodate a level two charger, and they did get a favorable lease agreement, they're going back to gas. So it really matters what the individual circumstances are. And sometimes that's economic. And sometimes that's just, I live out in the country and I have a 1970s house with a knob and tune wiring. And I'm not going to pay an electrician to do this so I can save $300 in gasoline a year.

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: Thanks.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: You're good. Represent Wells, you're up?

[Kenneth "Ken" Wells (Member)]: You're all set? Yeah. Okay. So basically, it sounds overwhelmingly like the great incentives that a lot of people will try these vehicles. The incentives ran out. They didn't like the car that much or enough to buy another one, so they switched back to gas.

[Matt Cota]: Well, no. That's what

[Kenneth "Ken" Wells (Member)]: we're feeling now. I 20% down.

[Matt Cota]: I didn't testify to that, Representative Wells. However, I can say with confidence that electric vehicles will always have an important foothold in Vermont. That 10% appears to be the floor. But getting to 35%, as was envisioned in the Advance Clean Car two, is an impossibility. Where we'll be at the end of the decade? I'm confident we'll be higher than 10% of new car sales will be electric vehicles. But I don't think we'll be close to 35%.

[Kenneth "Ken" Wells (Member)]: Very diplomatic.

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: Yes.

[Matt Cota]: Who else?

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Representative Keyser? Has anybody ever come up with a figure of how much it actually costs through incentives and everything the way they were to get at 35%? I mean,

[Chris Keyser (Member)]: that'd be a lot of money, wouldn't it?

[Matt Cota]: Yeah. I don't know. Don't know. Don't know that. I bet a lot of people don't. And it's different for every individual. And every circumstance is different. It's not one size fits all.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: The January 2024 and the January 2025 are pretty substantial numbers, two fifty or more, three seventy five or more. Any idea what January 26 are gonna that's a big drop. Are we seeing you two, three weeks in? Are your members busy as can be? Or are they feeling what are you hearing?

[Matt Cota]: January's not a great month.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Right, January 24, it was 400 electric vehicles.

[Matt Cota]: Let me point out the flaws in my own data. And Michael, back this up. Some of it is the collections. So if I buy a vehicle on December 31, that may not get reported in the DMV system until January 15. So the fact that January 2024 was so strong could actually be that December 2023 was strong. And there's no way I can discern which car was bought on January 1, which car was actually bought on December 25. And all I can tell you is this is what was reported to the DMV, and there's always a lag. So it's not perfect month by month. It's a good representation, and it's consistent. But there is some wiggle. So my assumption Mike, please correct me if you think I'm wrong. My assumption is the banner 2024 was partly due to a fantastic December.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: So also to clarify the significant amount of leases that were available in there is a pretty significant, obviously there was a nice chunk there. That same slide you have on there, was huge amount of these battery electric vehicles that were September '4, October, November, very big, how many of those months that were above the 300 plus. So what's the timeline when you're going to be able to tell whether those people stay in their electric vehicle or not? A sort of this idea that there was a huge attractiveness of two and three year leases

[Matt Cota]: and whatnot.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: There's a timeline that we'll be watching to see what those people do at the end of their lease and when will we kind of get an idea of whether they stay in it, stay in electric or not? And what's the timeline that we should be really looking to see how those vehicles will transition to that end of that lease? The earliest is some

[Matt Cota]: of the the shortest leases were twenty four months. As I look at it, we should be seeing activity in late summer, July, August, September 2026. That will give us a real indication of whether the lessees come back to the lot and hand over their keys and walk away or buy an ICE vehicle or whether they purchase their vehicle off lease. And then, of course, it's up to the manufacturer to decide. The manufacturer can decide to, we're going to take all the leases back. Or they can say, oh, you can keep it on your lot, but you'll pay us this. That's a negotiation between the manufacturer and the franchise owner. But the consumer, of course, has the first choice, and that is either turning the keys or to purchase a used vehicle that they prior leased.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Sometimes as far as conversion or staying in electric, we'll really start to see that at the end of the summer and the 2026. When we come back, for those of us who just don't come back next year at this time, we'll be sort of in the middle of that transition. So the beginning is this summer, early fall, a year from now we'll start to, would it be fair to say you'll have a pretty good gauge a year from now on whether or not people are staying in electric or Yeah, going in a different

[Matt Cota]: and we'll know that, we'll have a better understanding of that, and we'll also have a better understanding of how well these older cars perform. So if people thought, I don't want to buy a five year old electric vehicle, we might find out that that's actually just fine.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: So we don't know what the used car market of electric vehicles is, but we would have a better picture of the used car market, of what electric vehicle used car market is about a year from now.

[Matt Cota]: And that's, of course, important because vehicles usually have three lives. And if it's a battery electric vehicle that's leased or purchased here, that stays here, and then it's sold at obviously a lower price than a new car, that stays in the system. And those numbers grow of non gas burning vehicles. But that's still to be determined.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Patricia McCoy?

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: Yeah, I just feel like I need to sort of counter some of the demons a little about electric vehicles, because I think I don't have a garage, I have a charger, I mean people who live near the hospital, they can be charged at the hospital, and nighttime you're allowed to do that. I think that with the NEBI money, which apparently is going get deployed, we will have more charters. And I think the number is from my experience, little by little, there are more charters. I think it's just people want to make the commitment, and I think that it's also, know, for the program that we had, Mudderspark program that really helped people have lower transportation costs, is a really important thing, and affordability issue is very very important right now, especially for lower income people. I just, I think that it's not always, not sure what I'm trying to say, but I just think that you need to also just think positively about it as solution. And to air quality, it's really important, know, have asthma and particulates from, guess, vehicles are getting are getting cleaner, you can think about that too. So I just understand what you're saying about the data, but I'm also hoping we can be reading more, I mean obviously incentives, but we're counting incentives, I guess. Promoting, promotions. And. Promoting options. And strength, I think.

[Matt Cota]: If I may, Jared. You're right, it does take a commitment, and some are absolutely willing to do that. And others might need coaxing. But I would say that the gasoline sellers in Vermont, many of them are committed to providing that charge. So nevi money, a significant sum of money, won't cover the entire state. And we'll need the existing motor fuel suppliers or retail establishments to build that network out. And so Tom Frawley at Summit, R. O. Valley, Mobile, there are a couple of large in state Vermont motor fuel retailers that are committed to providing level two, level three charging capabilities, because they see that as part of their business model of not just selling gas, but selling stuff inside the store, hot foods, healthy foods, and vehicle charging, and good coffee. So that model is changing, and I just don't want it's not just that, yes, heavy money is important, but so is the network of existing motor fuel stations that are trying to capture some of this market, too.

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: It's one up by Route 15, and you have Hartleck.

[Matt Cota]: One just opened in Richmond, off the interstate there by the car park.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: I would add that as far as whether that sounded doom or gloom, to support a new battery electric vehicle market, it will be very helpful to know if we can have a robust used vehicle market. Excuse me. It's hard to have just one without the other, I suspect, right? Representative Lalley, you're next.

[Kate Lalley (Member)]: I just, I think I appreciate you describe what it's like at your home location, Representative Burke. I think what you described shows that setting and locations that offer compact walkable density are going to make this convenient and affordable for people. You can tell, I'm a native of Washington DC and have friends who have recently taken up EVs. In DC, you park on the street. You do not have access to a charging station. Many people don't. So what do you do? You walk a block to the local Whole Foods and charge it there overnight, or you charge it to the workplace. That's what people are doing. And they're making it work, it's pretty convenient, but we're not living in a place that affords that just yet.

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: I wish we did, but we don't. It's true. It depends if you There you go.

[Matt Cota]: So I'll just tag off on that comment, if that's all right, which is one of largest seller of manufactured vehicles in the box. Not Subaru. Everyone thinks Subaru is the top seller. It's Toyota. It has been consistently over the last couple of years. And their commitment is to hybrid electric vehicles. And you might say, yeah, but there's no plug there. Yes, but you're about you're getting 40 to 50 miles per gallon out of a vehicle there. And they have made a commitment. They've gone the other direction. Everyone was chasing EVs. They've gone towards hybrid electric vehicles. That will have a and those sales are increasing about 13%. And that's the one powertrain that has shown growth. I expect that will continue. And while that will never require a charger, it will reduce sales of gasoline, will impact the transportation fund, but will not produce as much health life emissions. Representative White?

[Candice White (Member)]: I want to second what Representative Burke said about the support for electric vehicles. I have one car, it is fully electric, I have a backup. It takes me a little longer to go on road trips. So I think that it's important that we don't abandon something that was decided was part of our solution to cutting down emissions and our reliance on fossil fuels. We know that consumer behavior takes a while to change, and we've had five years of rolling out this program, and now without incentive, it's coming to a halt. So I think there is opportunity to try to get this back up and walking again. Because this isn't gonna go away. We're gonna get in, without going into any federal commentary. So that's my comment. And then to your comment on a lot of your dealerships investing in level twos and level threes, do you have a list of dealerships that have level three charging stations at their lots that are available to the public? And I ask that because as this infrastructure is still being implemented across the country, as an EV driver, I have found that Ford dealers don't necessarily advertise Advanced Level three chargers, but they're very good, reliable chargers throughout New England that I stopped at, the Ford in New Hampshire on the way to Boston. Are great charging stations. So how many of your dealers are offering that, and that information that we're sharing with the consumers who do have electric vehicles?

[Matt Cota]: So you're referring to car dealers, not motor fuel dealers?

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Dealers.

[Matt Cota]: Certainly, in order to sell electric vehicles, manufacturers have created certain requirements. In order to receive electric vehicles, there are certain requirements that they invest in level two and level three chargers. Many of them are used in order to make sure that people can test drive their car in a fully drive car or that when they work on a car, that it can be charged. I don't have the breakdown, but I will endeavor to find out whether or not those are accessible to the public. But yeah, every new car dealer that sells electric vehicles has some level of chargers, because they've had to upgrade their infrastructure.

[Candice White (Member)]: And I think the level three is what is most important, because you can come in and get a charge off it, like half an hour as opposed to four hours. And were you saying that your fuel dealers are also investing in level two and level three charges?

[Matt Cota]: Yeah, so the gasoline dealers, particularly the new facilities that have the square footage. A great example is the one that just opened in Richmond, the Barn 2. But Summit distributing, Tom Brawley has made investments in the Randolph facility and the White River facility as well for level three chargers. And you're seeing more because the reality is that even if it's only half an hour versus a couple hours or twenty minutes versus whatever, it still provides an opportunity for commerce. Some people charge and read a book in the car, but a lot of people charge and then go buy coffee or something to eat. But not every grocery store or gas station has that square footage pavement, flat pavement, in which they can accommodate that. It's usually the newer ones, the nicer ones, the bigger ones. Representative Keyser here. Well, I'm

[Patricia McCoy (Member)]: very encouraged to see that the petroleum industry is embracing the electrification, because if you don't have convenience, the vast unwashed will not do this. It's got to be convenient, in my way of thinking. And from another point of view, given the fact that we do have a large group of electric vehicles around us, these people are coming into our communities. They're spending a lot of money. And if we don't provide for their recreational use of their vehicle, will decrease the amount of tourism. I think this is going to encourage. I mean, I just think of the number of Teslas that come up to Killington every year, and I encourage the Killington operation to put some chargers in. I think they're gonna do. But I think if you get the say, footprint that will support it, I'm glad to see that the industry is moving in that direction. Thanks.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Representative Pouech, you wanna go?

[Matt Cota]: I was gonna sort of comment

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: that. Understanding the fuel dealers, I mean, nobody today is putting up a gas station and all they do is sell gas. I mean,

[Matt Cota]: they put the

[Phil Pouech (Ranking Member)]: gas station there to get you to the convenience store. It seems that that's the piece. And for the same reason, because I don't know how will I charge, I'm like, well, maybe I'll go get something easy, I'll do something else because I've got a little bit of time to do that. So it's encouraging to hear that and that will expand on what was just said, getting tourists here. I'll say when I'm off charging somewhere in New England, 50% of the people that I'm charging next door are Canadian. And so, you need that infrastructure and it's good to see that Bob and Eddie Phil's got things going and is getting things going and that's an important piece to get the commercial folks involved. And it seems like it will work for them too, so that's good.

[Kenneth "Ken" Wells (Member)]: Excuse me.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: I guess we're near the end, unless you have any summary that you want to throw at the end.

[Matt Cota]: Don't, but this is information that we track because I think it's of value to our members. We think it's of value to Vermonters. And we certainly think it's of value to the members of this committee. And we will update it and post it every month. And Mike Smith can be a great resource to this committee if you have questions about this individual rules and regulations. So glad to have him on the team.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Got one more here. Grips and Rolling.

[Kate Lalley (Member)]: I was just wondering if you had any information about when you do see like a level three or something, thinking in South Burlington there, a

[Candice White (Member)]: couple of them went in at

[Kate Lalley (Member)]: the parking lot where the tail bits is on Route 7. So how does how does something like that happen? Is that, like, through a lease with the utility? Or who's how does that

[Matt Cota]: It can take a lot of different shapes and sizes. So, like, for instance, to get the NEVI money, the federal money, there are very strict parameters, which Patrick Murphy can go into in great detail. That, for some, has been in Bradford. That was a success. For others, they look at it and go, it doesn't quite fit our model. There are certain requirements for using that NEVI money that it's open twenty four hours, so on and so forth. Other situations, it's the charging company that is simply leasing the land, and they are the ones that are processing the credit cards, maintaining the maintenance on the equipment. Other dealers decide, no, I want to own do you own your own modem, or do you lease it from your Internet company? It's kind like the same deal. So there are a lot of gasoline stations. I don't know the situation with tablets, though it's my backyard, that decide, no, I want to own the machine, pay to service it, and then have the profits for the sales of electrons. It can vary between those different models.

[Kate Lalley (Member)]: Is this something that Green Mountain Power has gotten in the game of? I'm wondering,

[Candice White (Member)]: here's where I'm going. How can

[Kate Lalley (Member)]: we have more of these things on our streets to just charge, like you have in Montreal, for example?

[Matt Cota]: Well, would be helpful. Well, first of all, you need the adequate power supply. You mean for public charging is what you're referring to? You need adequate power supply, and then you need space. You need square footage. And then you need significant I'd have to review the numbers because I'm sure these have changed. I don't know if they've ticked up or ticked down given the rate of inflation versus the proliferation of these devices. But it's a significant I don't want to quote it right now, but it was 6 figures when someone told me how much they invested in a single charger. When's your return on your investment? Is it coming from sales of electrons, or is it coming from sales of other stuff? And some would take a more risk averse approach and simply lease the land to someone who wants to risk that capital. Others see an excellent business opportunity and want to own the equipment and the profits that come from selling electrons to people and electric cars. I don't know is more. I don't know what is the more common thing today. I'm happy to do some more investigating about you.

[Kate Lalley (Member)]: Really interesting to

[Mollie S. Burke (Member)]: Thank you.

[Kate Lalley (Member)]: I think someone said to me that, which I thought just makes so much sense, that we should reframe it as charger anxiety rather than range anxiety. And I've been thinking about this, and I think that makes a lot of sense. And so then that leads me to, so can we have more time for some? Yeah.

[Matt Cota]: And part of it, too, quite honestly, is that Tesla was despite all the politics around the person that's involved in Tesla, one of the things that was done early on, which was really smart because they had the capital, because they're a publicly traded company, was to invest in a nationwide charging network. And some of the manufacturers are working together to make a similar type of investment. So there's agreements for non Tesla vehicles to use Tesla chargers. However, developing their own charging network, a competing charging network, something that is actively being investigated and being invested in.

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: Thank you very much. Thank you, mister Smith.

[Patricia McCoy (Member)]: Mister Dakota, thank you

[Matt Walker (Chair)]: for your afternoon.