Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: All right, welcome to the public hearing on the proposal for this Tuesday, April 21, a proposed amendment constitution to specify that the government must not deny equal treatment under the law on a person's race, ethnicity, sex, religion, disability, sexual orientation, gender identity, gender and expression, or national origin. So I'm representative Martin LaLonde, the chair of the House Judiciary Committee, and I'll introduce the rest of the committee. Start with Ian.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: Hi. I'm Ian Goodnow, representative from Brattleboro Windham 9, and I sit on

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: house judiciary. Tom Burditt, vice chair of house judiciary from Westrop. Kenneth Goslant, state rep, judiciary, clerk, Northfield Berlin.

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson (Member)]: Barbara Rachelson, state representative, Burlington, Chittenden, 14. Alicia Malay, representative for Pittsburgh and Proctor.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Tom Oliver, Franklin, four. Thank you. So just on the initial ground rules, each witness will have three minutes to testify and I'll invite each witness to join us and also who is next in line or on deck. The time clock, which will be seen on the screenings, will begin when the witness starts their testimony. The timer will alert the witness twice. It'll turn yellow thirty seconds before time is up and will turn red when time is up. We wanna make sure to get that right. So for those who are testifying remotely, when it is your turn to testify, you'll be asked to unmute yourself and turn your camera on and begin speaking. And if your time is up and you have more to say, please submit written testimony as a PDF by email to Megan Canela, whose email can be found online. So during the public hearings, our job as legislators is simply to listen to the testimony. We will not be asking or answering questions during the hearing. We understand this looks different from our regular committee meetings, but similar to those meetings, you can rest assured that what you share will inform our work. So thank you for participating. And I have Susan Arsenault first, but I do not see, have you heard from Susan, whether she's not going to show up? All right, well, we'll skip over her and go to Renee. So if you could join us. Nice to see you again. It's been a while.

[Renee McGuinness]: It's been a It's while.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Renee McGuinness]: Thank you. Renee McGuinness Moncton. So I've already presented legal issues regarding the language of Prop four to the House this afternoon, House Judiciary this afternoon. So my evening's testimony touches on prop position four's clash with The US constitution, and I want to clarify bible teachings in relation to Prop four. People treat each other horribly sometimes. This is a human heart problem, not a constitutional problem. The Declaration of Independence states, quote, We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights. Unalienable rights are not bestowed by government, but by our creator, a creator that our founders recognized, but many Vermonters do not, unless the teachings are based upon a false social justice Jesus. Our constitution establishes government as the protector and defender of our God given rights, not the provider of our rights. Our constitution is intended to protect equal rights, not provide equal things. The US ended slavery and Jim Crow laws. The Bible says that those who are unwilling to work should not be allowed to eat. Government assistance suffocates human ingenuity and the desire to excel. Upward mobility and prosperity are accomplished through access to education, sweat equity, and a free market economy, not DEI education, but an education grounded in rigorous academics and the trades. The commandment to care for the orphan and the widow is directed to the body of Christ, not governments. When a government takes from the rich to give to the poor or marginalized, it becomes the oppressor of the people it governs. In God's eyes, there is only one race, the human race. There are two categories of persons in God's eyes, those that believe Jesus is Lord and those that are in rebellion against God. Believers are children of God and are promised eternal life. Nonbelievers are children of the father of lies, and there are always wools in sheep's clothing presenting false doctrines. While God sees all people as his imagers, prop four divides people into categories according to race, ethnicity, sex, religion, disability, sexual orientation, etcetera. The language of prop four is divisive, not unifying, and it is definitely not biblical. The Bible also commands us to forgive those who trespass against us and to pray for our enemies, not to be stuck in bitter victimhood or demand social reparations for the sins of previous generations. Acceptance of Jesus as Lord and savior is a free will enterprise. What prop for so called Equalities of Rights Amendment will establish coerced equity programs at the expense of already overburdened taxpayers. We cannot afford laws under Prop four, either socially, spiritually, or economically. Thank you. God bless you all.

[Ed Baker]: Thank you

[Sharon Toborg]: very much.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Thank you. We do. So I'll go back to Susan Aronoff. Join us Susan and you're here for the rules. We have a three minute timer that will start once you start speaking. Can we get a little more volume? Pardon? Can we get a little more volume? Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Yeah. Let's just move this up. Yeah. You can move that closer. Yeah. Thank you for that. Test that out real quick just to see if it sounds good.

[Carrie Brown]: Test. Test. Test.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: You have to bring it a little closer.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Test. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Susan Arsenault]: Like the mic. I'm told to like the mic. Good evening. For the record, my name is Susan Arsenault, and I do the policy work for the Vermont Developmental Disabilities Council. The council, like all councils in the country, was created by federal law, an act of Congress. And councils exist to advocate for people with disabilities to be included in all aspects of American life, to be included in their communities, we'd like to say, everywhere where people live, work, The learn and majority of council members are required to be people with disabilities or their family members. In Vermont, the council's housed in the Agency of Human Services, and that's where I work. And while I'm a state employee, I do not speak for the Agency of Human Services. I have to say that before all of my testimony at this building. I do not speak for the Agency of Human Services. The council, the developmental disabilities council and the agency of human services operate under a memorandum of understanding that provides for independence and non interference in our advocacy. I'm going to be submitting written comments, but I just want to touch on some high points tonight about why we think, why we support adding an equal protection clause to the Vermont constitution. So disabilities can impact people across the life span from birth to death, cradle to grave. People can experience one or more disabilities. Disabilities can be temporary or permanent caused by car accidents or genetic conditions. No one knows if or when they or a loved one will experience life with a disability. The mission of the Vermont Department for Disabilities Aging and Independent Living is to make Vermont the best state in which to grow old or live with a disability. Sadly, Vermont is not known right now as a great state to live in when one has a disability. The Vermont Human Rights Commission receives complaints of discrimination on the basis of eight major protected categories, including sex, race, age, religion, sexual orientation, national origin, and disability. Ding, ding, ding, disability discrimination is the most frequently cited type of discrimination in complaints received by HRC. For, like, at least six years in a row, the HRC has received twice as many complaints, disability related complaints, as any other category. And so, when this state first passed its was first taking up the constitutional amendment for reproductive rights, I was in my thought bubble like, oh, boy, can we please solve a problem we actually have? But guess what? Fast forward to the Dobbs decision. So you just never know when you're gonna need protection under the state constitution. So for all of the categories, thank you, and please amend the constitution so all Vermonters get a chance to vote on this. And I will submit written comments. Thank you very much, Sue. Thank you. You.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Sharon Obard next.

[Sharon Toborg]: Thank you for the opportunity to testify. My name is Sharon Toborg, and I'm a resident of Barrie, and I'm here tonight to ask you to vote no on advancing proposal four. Proposal four purports to provide equality of rights, but it reads like the book Animal Farm, everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others. It would actually allow discrimination as acknowledged earlier today by Carrie Brown of the Governor's Commission on Women. Discriminatory measures would be constitutional to supposedly remedy discrimination. What might some of those measures be? Financial reparations, quotas by race or sex for jobs or admissions to schools? Prop four would give cover to discriminatory laws and policies that harass, intimidate, coerce, and attempt to silence those who refuse to go along with the political causes du jour. It's a brave new world where we're told men can get pregnant and have abortions. One can claim to be a girl one day and a boy the next, and mutilating kids is somehow compassion. Those who won't ignore biological reality and persist in their wrong think are already being punished. High school coach fired for stating the fact that boys have physical advantages over girls in sports. Pregnancy Resource Center speech targeted because they don't provide abortions. Mid Vermont Christian School thrown out of the BPA sports for forfeiting a game. A Randolph student punished for criticizing the presence of a boy in her school's locker room. The Department of Children and Families revoking foster care licenses of couples who wouldn't promise to affirm the gender identity of a theoretical child that might theoretically be placed with them sometime in the future in violation of their religious beliefs. Many of these situations resulted in litigation with the state being sued in federal court for violating free speech and religious rights. The cases were resolved in in favor the complainants and against the state, but at what cost, both financially to the state and those who had to go to court and emotional trauma to kids in schools. In reality, proposal four would not protect equality of rights in principle or practice, and the proposal that only pretends to do so should not go before Vermont voters. Thank you. Thank Thank

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: you very much. Thank you.

[Ed Baker]: All right. Well, hello, everyone. My name is Ed Baker, and I'm very pleased to be with you here this evening in support of proposal four. Here's my story. Vermonters with substance use disorder literally saved my life over forty one years ago. This particular group of Vermonters was uniquely suited to gain my trust and my confidence. And then asking nothing in return, they proceeded to teach me how to live. They proceeded to teach me how to embrace my own recovery. I've spent the last forty one years plus, my entire career and my entire retirement from age 37 through age 79 now, in one way or another, sure that my gratitude shows and that I return in some small measure the goodwill shown to me by this group of Vermonters. Over this same period, I have had the honor of working closely and supporting truly enlightened and courageous individuals, both in and out of the addictions field and in state and local government. People extremely committed to justice. I have also witnessed the deleterious effects of institutionalized or systemic stigma against Vermonters with substance use disorder throughout this entire period, forty three years. We see it today. We see it reflected in untreated disease and mortality and the morbidity directly resulting from this clearly tragic state of affairs. Proposal four, specifically, states its intent to expand upon the principles of equality and liberty by ensuring that the government does not create or perpetuate the legal, social, or economic inferiority of any class of people. Bravo. It furthermore states its intent to protect the rights and dignity of historically marginalized populations and address existing inequalities. Bravo. It's for these reasons I'd like to go on record with my unequivocal support for proposal for Vermont's equal protection amendment, with particular emphasis upon the inclusion of people with substance use disorder within its disability category. I wanna wholeheartedly thank the authors and the supporters of this amendment for contributing in doctor Martin Luther King Junior's eloquent words to bending the long arc of the moral universe toward justice. Thank you.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Thank you very much.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: Thank

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: you. Karen Suta is next.

[Karen Dolan]: Yeah.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: What's that?

[Karen Dolan]: So

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: we have a couple people on online if you're not ready yet. So who's on to we have a Lita spray. Pardon me, I'm working on the video here.

[Alita Sprague]: Hi, can you all hear me?

[Carrie Brown]: Yes.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: I can hear you but I can't see you if you can turn on your video.

[Alita Sprague]: I did turn it on.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: There we go. Okay, identify yourself and proceed. Thank you.

[Alita Sprague]: Great. Thank you for the opportunity to testify remotely. My name is Alita Sprague. I am a resident of Dorset. I'm here wearing a few hats. The first is as a commissioner on the Vermont Commission on Women. The second is as the director of legal analysis at the World Policy Analysis Center and the co founder of equal futures, which is an impact oriented think tank focused on advancing equality and quality of life around the world. I'm also the co author of a book published in 2020 through UC Press called Advancing Equality, which examines protections for equal rights in the constitutions of all 193 UN member states. So in the few minutes I have, I wanted to provide a few findings from our research that can further contextualize Prop four. As the committee is aware, a majority of states have now passed equal rights provisions that address sex or gender, and this includes all of the surrounding states, making Vermont an outlier in the Northeast. Our data shows that this is in the context of a country that is even more of an outlier on a global scale. So what my team has done is systematically analyze the constitutional texts of every country around the world. What we found as of 2024 is that the vast majority of countries worldwide, about 86%, take some approach to guaranteeing equal rights on the basis of sex and or gender. This includes all but one new constitution adopted since 2000. It It also includes countries where The US has advised on constitution drafting. So despite not guaranteeing gender equality in our own constitution, we have urged other countries to do so. 76% of countries also have explicit equal rights provisions covering race or ethnicity, as do 78% on the basis of religion or belief, and 59% on the basis of foreign national origin. Only 34% currently cover disability, but this includes three out of four constitutions adopted since 2010. The US constitution contains none of these guarantees. In the absence of explicit protections for equal rights, the Supreme Court has determined over time what kinds of discrimination require heightened scrutiny or higher levels of judicial review. But that approach to interpreting the equal protection clause has led to inconsistent levels of protections for different groups. It has also led to some of the more textualist Supreme Court's justices to question whether some people, including women, or even entitled constitutional equal rights. Vermont is in a position to help close these gaps, enshrining a comprehensive equal rights provision within the Constitution of Vermont, would both bring our constitution into better alignment with national and global standards, and send an important message about the equal dignity and worth of everyone living in our state. Constitutional rights have both practical and normative value, and at a time when equal rights are under attack at a national level, the latter should not be overlooked. Thank the committee for their time.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Karen Dolan]: I'll play when I ask Logan to pay in the Burlington.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: We're gonna have you last. So, like Oh,

[Karen Dolan]: I have to go to Burlington next because it's a pop up.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Yeah. We're gonna go with Zoe Stryker next.

[Karen Dolan]: Say it out.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Yeah, we'll go with Zoe Stryker next, and then we'll go to you.

[Karen Dolan]: After me.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Okay, great. All right, so proceed. Identify yourself. Proceed.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: Are you able to hear me? Yes. Awesome. Hello. My name is Zoe Stryker.

[Zoe Stryker]: I hail from Burlington. I would like to thank the Office of Legislative Council for scheduling a public hearing on proposal four. I come here associated with the Vermont Racial Justice Alliance as a data analyst. With the next couple of minutes, I would like to address why I, a transgender woman, need this amendment in Vermont and how we are seeing history repeat itself. Put simply, civil rights have been actively dismantled at a federal level. If we have federal a federal government that is unwilling to protect our most vulnerable, who are we supposed to turn to? While specific state laws do help address situated specialized situations such as employment discrimination or policing, nothing addresses the obvious that not all Vermonters are guaranteed equal protections under the law. By adding equal protections to our constitutional foundation, this guarantees everyone has the same rights, and we will shield ourselves from future legislation that will continue to be proposed and used in this as a way to erase certain classes of people. With this amendment, we could also add additional policy to address disparate impacts and systemic harm. Being in a blue state is simply not enough to ensure that everyone's rights will not erode. If you don't believe me, look at Colorado who will be voting on a ballot measure in November that looks to redefine the definition of sex. If that ballot measure passes, it could legally erase their transgender population in one fell swoop. In Maine, they will be voting to install a bathroom ban and a sports ban for their transgender citizens. In Washington, they're looking to vote on whether or not genital inspections are necessary for certain cases in women's athletics. This isn't a question of if proposed legislation will look to erode civil rights in Vermont. It is coming. Back in 2023, as was already mentioned, Vermont made national news because the Alliance Defending Freedom was looking for a way to overturn civil rights through a Vermont federal lawsuit. I know the examples I've given have been purely from a transgender perspective, but this is just a repeat of systemic issues and more specifically of systemic racism in American history. What we are seeing right now in real time, the term sex being codified as a way to legally discriminate against a certain population echoes the tactics they use when to when they try to legalize race for discrimination. Dehumanizing a given population by calling us biological males, pedophiles, or whatever slur they come up with next shows that the end goal of what extremists want, which is a complete breakdown of civil rights for one group so they can move on to the next. Hence, this presidential administration's focus on conflating DEI with civil rights to torture infrastructure and dismantle the fourteenth amendment. We needed this amendment a while ago. That being said, now is a good time as any to ensure that we can pass legislation that decides one group that we can't pass legislation that says that one group is not worthy of civil rights. And then another and then another until we end up back in the place we were when we founded this country. Please pass this proposed amendment. If you don't and midterms end poorly, there's a good chance I won't be around to testify on the next time we have a new amendment that proposes a similar thing. Thank you for your time.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Thank you very much. Thank you. So we'll next have Karen. If you can identify yourself correctly.

[Karen Dolan]: Thank you. Miss Karen Dolan, I'm known as miss Black Vermont, illegal a girl. I'm a lot of things. I'm fighting the mayor in Burlington, who I called the mentally arrested. I'm a vocal woman. I'm here is that my phone? Okay, great. I'm used to two minutes at Burlington. I wrote a professional version using my girlfriend AI, but this is from the heart because the heart must speak. I've been falsely incarcerated for being a baddie. I represent a lot of Vermont baddies. Vermont has those natural, beautiful women, those young girls who wanna, you know, be vibrant. And unfortunately, we have been targeted most girly girls have been targeted because this masculine push to push girls to be masculine, to be masculine, men has been crazy, especially in the progressive world. And that's why I love a Republican who demands that women stay feminine because that is where Eve is. So shout out to our mother, Eve, and her daughters. There's a lot of things I wanna say. I wrote the professional version. The main thing I wanna say is this bill has to be passed because it prevents government agencies from, overly okay. So I've been targeted by the state for a long time. I filed in federal case for a long time. And, you know, they want to think that because I'm feminine, I'm a woman, and I'm black, I'm feeble minded, and I have no idea what they're doing. And that, know, and then they see me in federal court, and they're shocked because she does read books, unfortunately. But when you're a feminine, you don't have to push your intelligence. You can just be a woman. And women, we don't have to prove it. So anyway, so I just wish that we have an ability to stop governments such as agents like, you know, the attorney general, if they are females and they're against feminine women, you know, to make sure that there is a protection for us females. You know, we didn't have this problem when TJ Donovan was around, but now that there is another one, we might be struggling severely. I speak to a lot of women all over, from all races, all gender, gorgeous, stunning, amazing, beautiful, stunning women coming all races, all genders, all sizes. You can be a baddie and be a size two. You can also be a baddie in size sixteen. So, you know, all, it doesn't matter what size you are. It's all about the brain, Tony. It's all about the brain. So, I'm here for once again to push for the state to see us as equal human beings. People who have the right to go to court for our violations about free speech, which I'm struggling with right now. I used to think that I was something was wrong with me going against this progressive, but Clarence the justice, Clarence Thomas, let me know that the progressives are going crazy, and I'm completely right to fight against that. So there's nothing that makes you think that you're an it girl when the justice confirms that. You know, I love Justice Swaples because she's an example to all women that you can be feminine and that girl and a woman of color and still demand respect. And I just think that, you know, women, I've been targeted You know, I had to fight another woman for a dress at TJ Maxx, a transgender woman. Had to fight her for my address at TJ Maxx. And I was like, this is a different world. And no man spoke up from me, and of course, the women were just watching. And I just, you know, if I you know, just think about this. If they teach me like this, I wonder how they treat other women who don't have the spunk, who don't have the ability to fight. So we have to fight. Again, my girl AI, she gave the better version because she's so smart. But either way, my heart is is in this game, and they've been trying to get me out of the state for a long time. They've been trying to scare me to, you know, go to California, go to New York, or, you know, I love the runways and I go to the fashion shows when I want to go to the fashion shows, but I love Vermont and Vermont is my home. What is it? The song say, the state song says, Home is where the heart is. This is where my heart is. Thank you.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Thank you very much. So, I will open this up if anybody else wants to have three minutes. Carrie?

[Carrie Brown]: Hi, thank you. My name is Carrie Brown. I live in Montpelier. And I spoke to you earlier today in my professional capacity from my job. Today, I'm just going to right now, I'm just going speak to you as myself.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: I'm a

[Carrie Brown]: citizen of Montpelier. And just very simply, I think that most of us would agree that we would like to live in a world where people are treated with dignity and equity and respect, regardless of who they are or where they come from. We would like to live in a world where everyone has equal opportunities, where everyone can vote, can make a living, can get an education, can work and support their families. We would like to live in a world where people are judged on the content of their character, not on the color of their skin or anything else. And the fact is that we don't live in that world. We are making great progress towards it. Vermont in particular has a lot of laws that are trying to move us towards that, but we don't actually live there right now. And pretending that we do or behaving as though we do in denial of the reality that there is discrimination, there is disparate treatment, there are disparate outcomes, there are inequalities and inequities is not going to help us get there. So I appreciate you considering this constitutional amendment. I hope that you will vote yes on it and give the voters of Vermont an opportunity to say yes or no in November.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Thank you very much. Thank you. Don't see anybody else. So we are concerned until tomorrow at