Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Hi. Welcome back to the House Judiciary Committee this Tuesday afternoon, April seventh. We are continuing our testimony on S two zero nine. We didn't quite get through a witness last week, so we've invited Lord Gibbard back to complete that testimony. And after that, we're gonna be heading down to Room 11 for a walkthrough of the forensic facility bill with corrections and institutions. But if you can join us, Lord, thank you. I'm not exactly sure if I remember where we cut off, but I think there were still questions that got But if you identify yourself- I'll do a quick

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: recap and then- Great, perfect, thank you. For the record, my name is Lauren Hibbert. I'm the Deputy Secretary of State, and it's an honor to be back with you folks today. A quick recap is we support polling locations as defined in the elections title, Title 17, to be considered a sensitive location. And to outlaw civil arrests during the period, those locations are polling locations, which is forty five days before an election. And I believe that there were questions for us about why. But the reason is there's already significant prohibitions against law enforcement being in polling locations. And law enforcement or military. And we see this in line with that strong tradition that we have in this nation. And we want to make sure that there's not a chilling effect on election, the very significant right to vote as a citizen. And that right should be free, fair, and impartial. And law enforcement can have a chilling effect if the only one can exercise that right. Obviously, if there is an incident, that is not covered in this bill. It's not prohibited. So if there's an incident, a crime that occurs at a polling location, law enforcement still and we we would hope would respond to that incident.

[Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: So I have just a quick question before I go over to Ian and then Tom. So the forty five days, I'm just looking at the 17BSA2502F, and I don't see it has a number of days. It just is describing how the polling places are identified.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: We need to So It's forty five days. That may have the wrong citation. I'll look at that and provide the correct citation. But it is in the law that polling location is the forty five days.

[Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Okay, yeah. So if we can get that to make sure we got the right citation there, it's on page five, line sixteen-seven, the rest of the nine. So Ian and then Tom.

[Ian Goodnow (Member)]: Yeah, I guess in that same vein,

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: is the prohibition around law enforcement just for the entirety of the time that an area is considered a polling station, or is it just the day of the election? The way this bill is written, it's during the time that an area is designated the polling location, which is that forty five days. And there's other prohibitions on that space in that forty five days. This committee passed a prohibition against guns being there. There's also a prohibition against political activity during that time in that polling location. Again, all of this prohibition is so that it feels like a non intimidating environment to exercise your right to vote.

[Ian Goodnow (Member)]: Yeah, Okay. And I was more wondering not about what this bill does, but the other law enforcement prohibition that you

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: were referring to. Also is for

[Ian Goodnow (Member)]: the full forty five days.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: That is federal law. I don't think there's been a case that is interpreting that federal law with our state law definition. But the federal law specifically prohibits troops or armed men by military or federal officials at the place.

[Ian Goodnow (Member)]: The only reason I asked, just thinking about my own Brattleboro unique experience, is that our polling station is my beloved Brattleboro American Legion, Post Five. So it's interesting that forty five day

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Well, are there in their official capacity as law enforcement, or they're going there for social activity? Because there's a difference.

[Ian Goodnow (Member)]: Oh, yeah, I think they probably go I wasn't even thinking about law enforcement specifically, but any of those prohibitions would apply to the American Legion for those forty five days, I guess. Yes. Okay.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Well, actually, sorry. The polling location, it's the town clerk's office until election day when it switches to the American Legion, just so you It's be not that because the elections are held at the American Legion that it's at the American Legion for that full forty five days. It's the your clerk's office, and then it switches to the off-site location on the polling day.

[Ian Goodnow (Member)]: And this makes sense because people could vote early at the Exactly. Clerk's office. Yes. Okay. So sure. That clarifies

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: the And I just want to give a gratitude to Shag Ji, who's our elections director, who was giving me the signal from the SAT.

[Ian Goodnow (Member)]: Okay. Yes. Okay. So that makes a lot more sense. Yes.

[Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Great. Thank you. Tom and Karen.

[Thomas Oliver (Member)]: You reminded me. So I'm working. I've got around my cruiser. Oh, send the boat. I can pull into my cruiser, get out my uniforms on a boat?

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yes. You're there as a civilian at that time. I'm You're not duty, still but yes, you're there exercising your personal right to vote.

[Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Karen and then Alicia and then Zach.

[Karen Dolan (Member)]: Oh, and I'm wondering if this is what the chair was getting at about defining the polling place. I wonder if it's just a switch of language. Because I wrote down that it was for thirty days. That was incorrect. It's forty five. Okay. That was what I believe was the information from their legislative council, but it's forty five days. Okay. But then if I'm looking at the reference, it's the thirty two. So there is just confusion on that.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: So we can figure that out. Okay. It's built when the federal law shifted to allow for overseas and military owners. It's that forty five day window. We're required to mail ballots to our overseas and military voters forty five days before the election. So that shifted when the election period started. So you heard that thirty days. Yes. I'm like, wait. I just wrote that down.

[Karen Dolan (Member)]: Okay. Yeah. Great. So guess so our polling place is also our police department. So how does that work?

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: That our town office, that includes this smaller small town. We have everything in one building. So I think as long as it's not 100 intermingled, it would be fine. It's more that there's an active long from my read, and I think how we would advise your town clerk is just an active police presence doing civil arrests in the polling location. Not just the presence of them in the building. Not just the presence of the building. Okay. That's why I just wanna make sure. I think there would have to be some guidance that we provide knowing that there's small locations like yours. Okay.

[Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Okay. So

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: Lauren, I guess picking up on where we were last week, one of the things that we were talking about is non citizens going to these polling places. And presumably, the only reason that you're going to a polling place, I would assume, is to vote.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: You could be going with a loved person, but yes.

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: Sure. So you could be going with a partner or a loved one. My question, I guess my very first question is how many municipalities currently allow non citizens to vote in the state of Iran?

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I believe we're at three.

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: Three. And those cities are?

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Burlington, Winooski, and Mott Pillar.

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: Okay. And one of the things that you've mentioned last week, and I'm going to paraphrase, I'm not going to put you directly, but you had mentioned that there are a number of non citizens that are very fearful and worried about going to these polling places, even with their loved ones. They don't have

[Thomas Oliver (Member)]: the ability to vote, but they're

[Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: going with their loved one to

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: the polling place, and they're fearful of going because of potential law enforcement interactions or altercations. And now, again, paraphrasing that word for word, but I think captures the spirit of what your concern was.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: And if I could just say, I think there's concern among citizens as well, so it's citizens and non citizens.

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: Sure, I appreciate that clarification. And so one of the things that you've mentioned is that they were fearful of being identified. So I'm curious, how would federal law enforcement identify these villages?

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I think that they're fearful that they will be stopped by law enforcement while they are if they're citizens, while they're voting, or while they're non citizens, while they're with somebody who is voting.

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: But why? Like, how would federal law enforcement pick them out of a lineup?

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: How they're picking them up in a variety of

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: But what is how?

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I'm just I don't know how ICE is identifying who is a citizen or non citizen. That's not my area of expertise. But it is happening that ICE is stopping people in the course of their daily activity in the world. What they are using, I don't have the experience.

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: Because I think if I'm reading in between the lines, what's being insinuated or alluded to is that there could be racial profiling happening.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: There could be, yeah.

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: Which, again, have The fact that I have to articulate that and that you I just feel that maybe we're not being as forfeit as that we could be in terms of what we think this bill is trying to accomplish, what the sponsors of the bill are trying because, I mean, again, I I don't know. I mean, if there's only three municipalities in the state and we don't have a clear number of how many nonresidents are currently residing in the state, it just seems a bit far fetched to me that we'd have to create a whole new legal framework to operate and protect our elections if there aren't any these interactions happening anyways.

[Thomas Oliver (Member)]: Well,

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: we haven't had an election recently outside of a municipal election where this concern has been raised. But our office has heard about this concern quite a bit from citizens of Vermont and town clerk's concern about what the parameters are. So I know that it's a valid concern. And I know that based on what we're hearing, that individuals are concerned that their skin color, their primary language are being used for detection by ICE. But other than that, I don't know how ICE is determining who they're stopping at any given time.

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: Right. But if the legislative intent of this bill is to protect people based upon the color of their skin, then I think this would fly into face of constitutionality because we're protecting one individual class over others.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I don't think that this does protect people based solely on their skin. I think that there is concern, even if you are the whitest Vermonter who's lived, Your grandfather was born here, you've lived here forever. I've heard concern about law enforcement being in polling locations. And I think that is the legislative history behind the federal prohibitions against law enforcement being in polling locations, is it's seen that just like we don't have law enforcement standardly in our places of worship or in the hospital system, this is another sacred time where we do something that is sacred, an agreement that we have as a citizen between us and the country to vote and a responsibility and right to do so. And having law enforcement there can have a chilling effect for everybody. Now, I have not looked into the race of people who have contacted our office. That would be inappropriate as well. But we have heard inquiries about, will law enforcement be at home?

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: And do you feel like there are there I think at the outset of your testimony today is that you recognize that there could be exceptions to this in terms of why law enforcement would be there.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Right. If there's a crime occurring. What about the suspicion of a crime? Yes. That would be another

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: Because and I'm glad that you agree with that. Because under 52 USC subsection 10,307, election fraud and general elections is a reasonable is a felony. It's a federal crime. Yes. And so if law enforcement was there to prevent said crime occurring, they would have the reasonable authority of having

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I a presence think there's a lot of factors that would be taken into account of whether or not there was a reasonable suspicion of election fraud occurring. But if there was reasonable suspicion of election fraud occurring, then yes, law enforcement would have a valid reason. But what goes into reasonable and what factors are on the ground would be a determination made by a court, not by So

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: if noncitizens were going with their loved ones to a polling place and there was suspicion that these noncitizens were going to vote, that would allow federal law enforcement to be

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I would question why there was suspicion that they were going to vote.

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: But that goes exactly back to my point is that this is a race bill. Because unless we're precluding this on race, how would you possibly theorize that someone's not an illegal resident?

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: That's what I'm saying back to you too.

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: But that's that's

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: the whole thing. There has

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: to be some barracks there.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Well, how would law enforcement have reasonable suspicion that a noncitizen was voting in a polling location? What would the evidence be? That's what I'm saying would need to be determined by a court. And whether that was based on somebody's race or something else, I have no idea.

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: So don't you think it'd be pretty prudent to have a voter ID law at this point to make sure that we have legal residents voting in elections?

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: So this is something that our office is asked all the time. And I was asked last time I was here. And I think there is a lot of arguments for voter ID, some of which are important and good. But until there's a free voter ID, meaning no cost and given to citizens, I don't think it's appropriate. Voting is very different than the consumption and purchase of alcohol. That is a choice you make, a privilege you have. Voting is a right you have as a citizen. You shouldn't have to pay anything for it. So if the federal government or the state government provided an ID at no cost that verified that someone was a citizen, then we could have a very reasonable conversation about what that would look like and what that should be. But until we have that, which we don't have and we're not close to, I think it is inappropriate to charge money for people to be able to exercise their constitutional right to vote.

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: It's an interesting conversation, but I think that we probably have a lot more in common on that last point than maybe either of us realize is that

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I think generally find that. Yeah. And I think If it if it was

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: nonpartisan issue at the end of

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: the day. If if it was free, if I could be a a person without a home and have a a card that said that I was a

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: citizen should.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yeah. If I could be someone who was disabled, never going to drive, and have a card that said I was a citizen, then that would be something we could really engage on. But that would have to be a very large systemic change that we would have to make as a country, frankly, because it would have to go across state lines. It would have to be easy to procure. It's just a larger conversation.

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: Thank

[Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: you. Tom has the last question because then we have to get down to Regarding

[Thomas Oliver (Member)]: a right and shouldn't have to pay anything for it, one could arguably bring in the Second Amendment because I have to have an IT department done.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Well, I'm not I know. I know. I know. But I

[Thomas Oliver (Member)]: have to purchase that. So I'm just throwing that out there. That's exactly the same point.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: If something comes up and you want to ask me a question, send me an email. I'm happy to continue to dial it.

[Thomas Oliver (Member)]: Yeah, I know what it was. I know that some towns can actually have the police come and guard the ballots. Remove the ballots. You can take it with staff to other places. Okay. I know

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: That would be

[Thomas Oliver (Member)]: Yeah. A village, a village town clerk office where they do the voting and also the police department, which has law enforcement.

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yes. I think there's areas that we'll have to provide guidance to towns and to town clerk's nuances. The transport of ballots, do wanna make sure that there's law enforcement involved if possible. And these mixed use buildings, obviously, we don't wanna displace a police department during that.

[Thomas Oliver (Member)]: And your work your work you you've heard as much about state law enforcement being intimidating at an election as is ICE?

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: I have not heard that state law I have not heard concern about state police being intimidating, although I

[Thomas Oliver (Member)]: was Any law enforcement, aside from the Fed?

[Lauren Hibbert (Deputy Secretary of State)]: Yeah. No. Although I will say that before the twenty twenty four election, we did meet with the FBI, state police, Homeland Security, and there was a consensus that those groups would not be at our polling locations until there was a necessity to do so. And that's pretty typical pre election planning for us, is that coordination with those three entities. And specifically in certain towns, local law enforcement too.

[Alicia Malay (Member)]: Thank you very much.

[Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: And we're gonna move to Room 11. We'll be starting at 02:30 with a walk through of the forensic facility bill. So we're off