Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Hi. Welcome back to the House Judiciary Committee, continued testimony on page six twenty six. And now we are going to hear from the director and executive director of the Center for Crime Victim Services. Over to you, Jen. Thank you for being here. And you're on mute.

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: Thank you very much. I am, again, the director of the Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services, Jennifer Pullman. I wish I could be there in person, but you know, you can take the Rhode Island out of the girl, but you really can't ever transform her to a Vermonter. So Rhode Islanders don't do this even though they've lived here for twenty six years.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Just to stay in the mind.

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: Yeah, well.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: And

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: I say that to lighten up the mood because I wanted to underscore how important this bill is for me, not just professionally, but personally. I have three children, twenty nineteen and 14, and. This does hit close to home, so I will do my best. Certainly the center fully supports age six twenty six. It's really a critical bill that is trying to keep up with the times that we just can't keep up with and really want to thank the committee for taking this up And I will give some abbreviated testimony based on, I mean, I can't follow Commander Raymond or, you know, the Attorney Padula. So I just want to give some thoughts that I have in terms of a high flyover and some additional considerations for this committee that I hope will not. Will be an addendum to what we can consider, whether it's in this bill or something else moving forward that I really think can protect our youth in a different way. First, I'm always a big supporter of, what I see in this bill in terms of having, charges, convictions reflect the activity. You heard from Commander Raymond. These are not one hit wonders. These are people that do this. Sadly for a living, whether they're trading or making money, and it's always concerning to me in any terms of the way we process cases that we change what the act looks like to look as if it's a criminal threatening or something else without capturing what's involved in this activity. I think it's important to have the record reflect the activity, and this bill does capture that. I did submit multiple documents on the committee page and you can see what other states do. But to the extent that this bill does reflect how we can make the activity reflect be reflected in the charge, I think that's really important. Second, in terms of the statute of limitation proposals, I think that those pieces again reflect where we've been going, especially in terms of young people. We all did this work with the St. Joseph's victims, eliminating extending sexual limitations is really important. Know, I know in terms of my own experience working with a mom who's. Who's reported to me of a friend of mine that her eight year old had been. Groomed and trafficked online when she was eight, that she didn't understand what had happened until five years later. That this was something that was wrong. And she still doesn't understand where those images are. So being able to make sure that we allow for space for especially young victims to understand the gravity of the crime. And give them space to pursue. Those pieces moving forward is very important as Commander Raymond and Attorney Bedula spoke about really in a very, very eloquent way. The shelf life of these crimes. Has changed so differently because of what's happening with the Internet. They live in perpetuity and it's really possible that again, especially with young people. That they may not even know what happened to them, and then they may not even understand where those images lie. And I know Representative Goodnow had asked about the Michigan law. I did provide that on the committee page so that you can see that there are enhanced penalties for young people. So what gets to my testimony today, because expert, I'm no Commander Raymond, I'm not Attorney Padula, is that what do we provide for our young people in these situations? And when I heard from this mom about what happened to her and her daughter, I was like, of course, I can help you because I know all the best people. Know how I can help you. And then when I contacted the individuals that I know have been doing this for a while, they said, but the mandated reporter laws give you no place to go. If this young person does not want to report to DCF, the police about an internet crime that happened five years ago, there is no place for them to go to a therapist. Because the mandated reporter laws in Vermont don't allow for a young person to come forward. Without triggering an entire. Reaction that they don't want, and I want to reflect back. To the heartbreaking testimony that we heard from Brian and from Mary about their children. And what we heard about was isolation, loneliness, fear and shame, embarrassment and humiliation. And Mary said quite clearly, I just wish I could have told him it wasn't your fault. But we don't have a place for young people to go. And our mandated reporter laws, and I've attached those, are very unique in the country. They're well intended, but very unique in that any act of exploitation or sexual abuse by anyone has to be reported. And I want to remind the committee, for those of you who don't know, what got me motivated to do this work when I was 13, was I was going to be that voice for children. I was going to elevate their voice. So I don't come to this lightly. I don't come to this lightly. But I look at other states wherein the majority of states, vast majority. Require that the child be at risk and that the sexual abuse comes from somebody who is a caregiver or has access to the child. Vermont is different, and those statutes are on the committee page. So when I think about what Mary and Brian were sharing, I think about what resources do we have for youth in Vermont. Where do they go for a safe place? Because they can't go to a counselor. They can't go to a trusted teacher. I've heard about this before, that they go to their teacher. We want to encourage them. You just heard this to go to a trusted adult who then has to break that confidence. I've heard that many, many times. I actually even heard from a colleague that she, as an adult, disclosed sexual abuse to her therapist who then thought that she had to report. So I just this is not the bill I want to lay down with this. I do want to share that Senator Bahowski had attached has a bill introduced, and I did put that in the committee page as well that would at least look at a study group. To consider this issue, I certainly do not want to be thought of as somebody who's trying to that that's so opposite to everything that I've done in my life. But I think we need to take a look at, you know, outreach and education are great, but we all know, you know, I'm thinking about the experiment with DARE. I forget what the acronym was, but it was about the one time shot. People would go into the school and talk about drugs and how bad they were for youth. And these one time shots don't work. They don't work for young people. And I'm all for getting that message out in any way, shape or form. But our young people are bombarded by so many things And outreach and education are not enough. And you heard that from Mary too. I want to create a safe space where our young people can go. They feel shame. They just want to know that what they did wasn't wrong. That we have their backs. They have nothing. They didn't disappoint us. So I just really think that. That needs to be considered in any holistic approach, because if we're not considering the whole way in which we support youth, that included, then we're missing the mark. So I'm obviously very much in support of enhancing penalties. I think that people that do this, you know, I won't fill in the blank there. But I do think that we also need to think about not just brochures, not just one time shots, but where do young people go when something has happened to them? And how can we create a way that people who have been abused have been exploited can get the support they need? Because most of us know, I think all of us know that once you've been victimized, you are at increased risk for being victimized again. We put a bunch of stuff on the committee page. There's a compilation also of what other laws exist in other states. Again, I just think that maybe some language, whether it's in this bill or the miscellaneous judiciary bill, to look at a study committee to move this forward. I do want to say that I did speak to the Office of Child Youth and Family Advocate, Kids Safe Collaborative, Prevent Child Abuse Vermont, the Child Advocacy Centers and Special Investigation Units, as well as Voicence for Vermont's Children, all of which are in support of revisiting the definition that we have that again is not in tune with the way most states are addressing sexual abuse reporting.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Karen Dolan

[Rep. Karen Dolan (Member)]: Yes, thank you, Jen, for being here. Maybe this is just me,

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: but I'm wondering if you

[Rep. Karen Dolan (Member)]: can connect the dots for me because I feel like I'm not getting the I understand the mandated reporter piece and there's gaps in the system. How does it connect to this bill that's in front of us? I'm not connecting those dots.

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: Okay, I can help with that. I think that, again, I'm going to go back to Mary and Brian's testimony, which is our children felt isolated. They felt shame. They felt fear. They had nowhere to go. And so if we increase penalties, which again, I'm completely in favor of, but how have we changed the way that children can reach out for help? We haven't.

[Rep. Karen Dolan (Member)]: So they could go to a therapist or talk to They can't talk.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Well, that's the

[Rep. Karen Dolan (Member)]: piece I'm not getting.

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: They could, but then it would be a mandated report. So if I'm a young person who was 14, who was sexually assaulted at a high school, for example, high school party, and the network also was an agency very in support of this, I just want talk to my therapist and get support. That triggers a mandated report. So then DCF gets involved, law enforcement, but the person I'll call her, I'll say it's a she. She's like, I didn't want that. I just wanted to know that I didn't do anything wrong. So they can talk to whoever they want, but the consequences might be beyond what they're contemplating.

[Rep. Karen Dolan (Member)]: Okay. And so that, I feel like with the sexual assault piece, I get that. But with this of sharing that you're being threatened or that somebody has an image of you, you feel like that could be a concern in this case too, that they might not want it to be reported. But I think you would want. That's where I'm trying to not, where I'm not connecting it.

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: Well, I can't What I heard from Brian and Mary is that their children, or they felt their children, were fearful, shameful, and had no place to go. No amount of outreach brochures are going to change that. But if we're going to do that, we need to promise young people that they have a place to go where they can be heard. And we don't have that right now in this state. So I think that's just a piece that, you know, again, not for holding back this bill, but it is for consideration. And again, I posted language from S two thirty nine is like, do we want to look at this as a state because we don't have a place where we can say to a young person, you can contact this agency and get support that's confidential. And again, I'm trying to straddle the fence because I wish that all these people would be frankly incarcerated. But I also have to think about the reality of what that looks like. And, you know, for even people in our own state, in our own country, the reality of tracking people down is not good. And I'm mostly concerned about getting people therapeutic support, and welcoming them into that space. Thank you. So I support the bill, but I'm just encouraging the committee to think in the long term, about ways we can consider additional places amplify how we do things. You know, again, it doesn't have to be in this bill, maybe misjudiciary bill. Why not? And

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: and.

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: We're out of step in the country. Well intended, but out of step.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: So that bill, is that in Senate Judiciary Committee?

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: It went to health and welfare. And so I'm not quite sure.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: It's S-two 39. Yeah.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Okay. Do you know if they're taking it up?

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: I haven't seen it yet. I'll follow-up with Senator Vajowski. I know she's committed to the issue. And also there's concerns about the trading that we provide in our state for people who are mandated reporters, and that That's another issue that should be taken up. I'll keep an eye on it and just wanted to flag it in terms of, again, thinking about how we can Think about the young people, enhanced penalties wouldn't have helped. The young people wouldn't have helped Brian's son or Mary's son.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Right.

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: I don't know if another option would have helped, if we had that in our state, but I do feel like I've, heard enough from many stakeholders that pretty much every stakeholder that I can think of that I've talked to that, we need to think about our laws and whether or not we're getting in the way of young people reaching out to people that could be helpful to them.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Right. No, understood. Thank you. Barbara?

[Rep. Karen Dolan (Member)]: So, Jen,

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: thank you for

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson (Member)]: bringing this issue forward. I'm curious if you can direct us to a state that has made these changes.

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: I can send you a whole compendium of the other states and what their laws are.

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson (Member)]: I was looking at that, but when I looked at what changes were made, I found a couple of states who were broadening who reported and increasing penalties for noncompliance. And I'm like, this is not what Jen is talking about. So I probably did not

[Rep. Karen Dolan (Member)]: Most put the right question states,

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: again, define it as amended report as being somebody who either is a caregiver

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson (Member)]: or

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: that there's reasonable risk of future abuse to a child. When we're thinking about exploitation, that's different. And that's where again that tie in is for me, is that, people who are using these images to trade for, you know, either for financial purposes or, to trade for other images, They don't have access to that child per se. So, how do we provide support for those young people? And I get I get it that it's hard to wrap your mind around, and it really took me a while to get there. But I can show you what basically most every other state does and that there is that narrowing.

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson (Member)]: So you're not talking about for sexual abuse cases, you're talking about for these online cases where we think somebody isn't going to, right? Because we have some of the cases where it's like, and I know we've had some of these in Vermont, I'm almost positive about to do this, where somebody says there's someone else and they schedule a meetup at some point. I don't think they're extorting money, but they're like, let's meet, and then the kid gets picked up by this 80 year old man who said he was a 14 year old girl or something. Again, I was trying to think about it broadly. It would have to be somebody a certain age and up in that range, not a four year old, but 12 and up or something. I don't know. Some age and up where it's like they're disclosing something and they might be like, We don't want you to tell anyone. And then it's like, But one, is that person going to go home and get beaten up again because they're still living in that situation and are in danger? Or is that person going to go hurt another kid? So that's kind of where I get stuck, is like, I would hate to have not made a report, and then someone else gets hurt. But I get that it's like this person is in Africa or Asia or who knows where. I mean, they're hurting the person. But again, if you're carving out people being brought, they're being, I'm trying to think of the word I want, exploited for a very specific purpose. What's the good in telling DCF about that? Protective services, I should say, not DCF. They're not going to, what are they going to do? They're not going to go fly to the Ivory Coast and interview people. And

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: I think that's where looking at this issue during the off session is important because as you would hear if you were to, and I know that Chittenden is going say, No, we're not going to, because we're not going to touch this issue right now. Having been the director of But the Vermont Children's Alliance that oversees the CACs, a lot of these cases that don't involve a caregiver access or risk of abuse are screened out by the DCF. And the CACs don't know about it, the SIUs don't know about it, and even law enforcement doesn't know about it. So it's thinking about how do we structure our system in a different way such that realistically, are we going to get the person on Ivory Coast? No, we're not going to. And again, I just I want to I have zero interest in derailing this bill. I think it's a great bill. I just want to encourage the committee to think about the themes that we heard from the parents who testified. Shame, fear, isolation, embarrassment, humiliation. And where do we have a place where young people can go to safely address that in a qualified setting too? I think that that's just an adjacent consideration. And I warned, I warned poor representative Arsenault that I was going to raise this, But it's an adjacent consideration that, again, I think we can increase penalties. I'm all for it. But we need to think about how we can prevent kids from experiencing further isolation.

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson (Member)]: Right. And it's interesting, when you said that, got deja vu about and you and I have been in the field for the same length of time in different sort of adjunct parts of the field, or adjacent parts of the field but there used to be the we're going to reinforce here are the 30 qualities that give kids resilience. And we're going to work on resiliency programs to give kids what they need so they're not so vulnerable and feeling shame. That was a big thing for a while, and I had no idea. The research showed that it made a difference. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yes, protective

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: factors, resilience. I'm very familiar with

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson (Member)]: We would have to do the preemptive. It didn't change mandated reporting, but it obviously was trying to get at building youth confidence and helping youth to be resilient. So I'm glad you're not tying it to this bill, but that you're asking these questions, because we should look at things and not just assume mandated reporting the way it is, is perfect, and we should just keep doing it. It'll be exciting to see if that bill gets some traction or if we can find a way to look into that. Well, thank you.

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: Well, thank you. And as I said, you might hear me again on miscellaneous judiciary bill. But I think that, I'm happy to provide a compendium of what other states are doing. Again, it's it's a weird role for me to play, given my background, but it's something that I think that, again, I've got a lot of voices behind me in our own state that are thinking that we need to take a look at this. This bill is really important. And I just hope we continue the conversation to look at other ways that we can help support young people, and all people, but young people especially as they're trying to deal with these issues that are getting more complex by the day.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Okay. So I appreciate that. On the issue that we've kind of gotten a little off track, I understand it's an adjacent issue.

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: Sorry. I did warn Representative Arsenault, I did warn her.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: That's fine. So on the mandated report, know that child and youth advocate has some other issues with respect to mandated reporting. I don't know if that's being taken up in our Human Services Committee. I think it largely starts there. But if you can convince Nader to put, when we send them the miscellaneous bill to put that bill that they have down there in there, I'm sure that we'd be very open to looking at it back to us. So I

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: hope so.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: But I I doubt that I'm going to advocate for putting in Senate bill language into the House

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: of the I'm not asking for that. I'm not a dope. I just know that I just wanted to.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: No, no, that's fine. No, you've greased the skids for when it comes back from the Senate after they've taken a look at it. So I know there's also lots of adjacent issues as far as the platform liability. This is just one small but very important step on trying to address this certainly. So Ian, I will give you the last question if you had a question that doesn't have to do

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: with mandated reporting. It does not have to do with mandated reporting. I just wanted to say, and I'll turn it into a question. Thank you very much for producing the Michigan Sextortion Law. Very helpful. Would you support incorporating exactly what they did in here with an enhancement for both 18 years, if the victim is 18 years old, and if the victim suffers serious physical harm or

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: death. Yes, absolutely. That being said, I also support the inclusion of PTSD as something that can be pursued civilly. But I support the Michigan law.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: And I will say the Michigan law includes in that enhancement serious mental harm. I don't know if you want to open up that can of worms.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: I think we already have kind of doing that in this

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: In the other PTSD. Yeah. So maybe we incorporate that in the criminal charge if they I don't know. And then the only other thing is also the Michigan law makes it a predicate offense. So, it stacks. First offense, second offense, third offense. I don't know if that's something

[Rep. Karen Dolan (Member)]: that we're interested in doing.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Yeah, okay. We can talk to If

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: I may, that's one of the reasons why I support the piece that I opened up with in terms of having the charge reflect and the conviction reflect the act. I think it's really important to make sure that we're not just going with threatening or extortion as other states do or some other states, but to have it really define what the behavior was. Again, thinking about Commander Raymond, it's not a one off. These are people who are just moving on to the next person.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: And then just final thing, the sextortion laws by state link is dead. Nate, I don't know if that's on our end.

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: Oh, I think I well, I thought I produced an actual document. I'll resend it.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: It's not working.

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: Alright. Give me a chance, Nate. If you can bear with me, I'll resend it, to you. And, but it was active on my end. So I'll get that moving forward. Last piece I have that is relevant to the conversation is Oh, relevant, Jen. Is the exemption piece. I do want to, again, flag that, as you probably know, we do have some exemptions in thirteen twenty eight-two that kind of make it a little bit less quote unquote criminal if a young person is involved. But I think that might want to be a piece that you look at again if you are concerned about the exemptions in terms of distribution. That's thirteen twenty eight zero two B.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Okay, anything else that you have for us or any questions for Jen? Not seeing any. Thank you so much for your testimony. Gave us things to think about. All

[Jennifer Pullman, Director, Vermont Center for Crime Victim Services]: right. Well, I've worn out my welcome, but I will send

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: that to No, never. That's not at all the case. Not at all the case. So we have Michelle, I think on her way over, but we'll just go off live until she gets here.