Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Committee this Wednesday afternoon, January fourteenth, and we're continuing with testimony on h five seventy eight. And we have the state's attorney from Lemoyle County, the Aliana. It's a hard one. Aliana. Alyana Gerhard. Sorry,

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: didn't choose it.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Can identify yourself for the record. You so much for coming down.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Really appreciate the invite. I'm Alyona Gerhard, G E R H A R D. I'm the state's attorney from Memorial County. So I really thank you for having me this afternoon. I thought I would just tell you two stories because I think they're a lot more interesting than just talking. So in Memorial County, we had a dog named Trooper. And when Trooper was found by residents of Lemoyle County, he was thrown away at the side of the road, left to die. He weighed about thirty one pounds. The veterinarian examined him, rated his body out of one through nine, a one. She'd never had a dog survive that was that low of a body scale before. Trooper's owner had been given special permission by her doctor to have him as a service animal in the housing where she lived. What the doctor didn't know is that she had nearly starved her prior dog to death. So the doctor signed the permission for him and she got Trooper. For the next several months, this owner, star trooper, kept him locked in a cage so that his paws became deformed because he couldn't stretch out. His coat was stained with urine and feces so much so that it took countless baths to get rid of the stain. Luckily, the owner surrendered him right away so that North Country Animal League could take him in and give him the vet care that if he didn't have in the next twenty four hours, he would have died. His vet care and his stay at Encal costs over $10,000 It's from one animal. So they did a GoFundMe and they actually got contributions from the community for $10,000 The vet didn't charge them for her services. So I charged her with felony animal cruelty. She plead guilty, and we had a contested sentencing because I thought she needed jail. So the judge ended up giving her six months to five years jail. I think it's the first time in my county that we got a jail sentence for animal cruelty. And it's one of the first felony charges we were able to successfully prosecute. She's not allowed to be a caregiver or possess any pets, and she has to complete a training course as well. The point of Trooper's story, he was saved. The owner surrendered him so that he could be given vital veterinary care. North Country Animal League and their veterinarian donated to their care and that they were able to raise $10,000 And Trooper's story is one of luck because not every animal has that. Can't veterinarians can't keep donating their care. Animal shelters can't keep donating food and services to these animals. So what can we learn from Trooper's story? We can learn that owner surrender is vital. We need a way to quick to sidestep the length and the processes of getting owners to surrender their animals, which can take months or years. If it's linked into the criminal process, it can take a year or two. We need a way that we can serve them on-site. Let's say if someone goes to their property, seizes an animal or executes a search warrant, they can serve the owner right then and there with a date ten days in the future. If the owner wants to contest surrender, it's on them to come to court. It's on them to make the play, to keep their animal. Otherwise, we have veterinarians, we have shelters, we have people who cannot fill cages, who cannot do what they need to do for this animal. They can't give vital care to the animal because the animal still has not been surrendered. So that's the first thing. The second thing that we learned, obviously, money, which we all know is important. We need a steady stream of funding for the animals, for the shelters, for the vets. The third is that we need a statewide animal abuse registry. If we had had that registry, that doctor would have known that this person is not a safe person to have an animal. She would have known. I actually, luckily, because I was a prosecutor, I saw the name of the doctor and I got to go talk to her. So I said, Hey, I just need you to know what you did. I know you didn't know this, but there needs to be a better way. And she was mortified. She was horrified that this had happened. So she, in turn, went out and talked to other doctors and other nurses and tried to figure out a way for them to make sure that they're not giving access to a person, an animal that has prior abuse history. If we have an animal abuse registry, a lot of other states are doing it. It doesn't take a lot of funding. It doesn't take a lot of oversight. It's really easy to do. We do it for people who do homeowner fraud. We do it for elder abuse. We do it for all these different people that we think need a wider sex offenders. Of course, that's the old one. I think we can do it for animals. And I think it would, in the long run, save a lot of funding because the same person wouldn't be abusing over and over and over again. And we wouldn't be using all our resources on that person. That person would have a red flag and we would know they should not be having an animal. So I think this H573 is a great step forward. It's great that it's starting to talk about sexual abuse. I think that I'm here to answer questions or if you want to know anything or thoughts, I'd love to hear it. Okay. Anything I can do to be helpful?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I don't suppose there's anybody in this room that can answer why we don't have a registry. And where is this wonderful dog named?

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: He is. So are you the pictures?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Able to

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: put them up? So I wanted to show you before and after pictures. You have to Great.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: Share my screen just so

[Unidentified Committee Member]: you can the way that these people set up.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: They're posted

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: online. They're online and I'm going to pass these around.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: There's only image number one. Yeah, so one is the first image.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: He's now eighty five pounds and he's living with a healthcare worker. So it's a good happy ending.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Thank you

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: very much for being here. So we were talking a little bit about something around defendant needs to contest for a seizure. And so we think like, can you just, because we're trying to draft language, walk us through how you would see that process working. And you're talking about specifically in a civil mortuary that the state is doing, that that's the process where we want Some sort of deadline that's fairly quick or it's basically default.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Sure. I think that the onus needs to be on the owner because you go to their property, you have a search warrant, you have to see some animals. There's a reason you're doing that, right?

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: Yeah.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: So they still have obviously rights to the animal. So it is on them to contest it. Now that might not fly. But I think that giving a set time limit of ten days is in a way to serve them right when you're at the property, because service is often a really big problem. We had a man who abandoned two dogs in a car. He fled to New York and trying to get them served so that we could adopt out these dogs was almost impossible. So if there's a way for law enforcement or someone to serve them when they're at the property with a ten day deadline, and then you can have a court hearing, you can have a judge, they have the ability to be heard in front of the judge and say, Hey, hey, hey, this was an accident. This animal hurt themselves in construction or wasn't me. So obviously, wouldn't be giving up their rights to their property without due process and without being heard by a court. But if we speed it up, then it also allows that animal to move forward.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: One follow-up.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Do you

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: have that for the emergency seizure as well or just the one where you do

[Unidentified Committee Member]: it with the search warrant?

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Whatever you think is best.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: I would

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: love to do it at both. I was at a situation where we were at a farm and we had to seize 30 animals, was it Lisa? Like over 30 animals, which was a nightmare in another self, which is my second story, which I'll tell you when you're done.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: No, I'm sorry. Didn't mean to interrupt you.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: No, you didn't at all. No, I want questions. I don't wanna just talk. And it's late in the day, I know you're all tired.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Okay.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Well, yeah. So that's one approach that we've talked about a little bit earlier today of of putting the onus on the person to come to court in ten days. The the other option that we're considering is that when that warrant is issued, it automatically is setting the hearing fourteen days from that date. Now, with the person being a no show, perhaps that would be a default where they lose their rights, but it's actually set up.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: That would be fantastic. Just something that has a built in deadline.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: Sorry, and I have one other question. We heard some testimony earlier about moving the civil forfeiture entirely into civil court, not just civil court in criminal. Do you have a thought on that as to whether that would be better for your process or worse or if it wouldn't really have an impact?

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: I mean, my county is not like Chittenden, so it might work for mine and not Chittenden because I'm in the same right? The same building, the same courtroom. Yeah. I think for me, the most important thing is untangling it from the criminal process. Because right now, based on my prior experience, if you file a civil forfeiture after you filed criminal charges, you have to wait for the criminal case to go through. It shouldn't take forever. So I want a way to unbundle that and make it so that it's independent and that it's got a short deadline. Yeah.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: Is that just how the judge is handling it in this? I don't know. There's something that says that they have to wait till the criminal case resolves.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: It's something that other state's attorneys have suggested to me. So it's like how can we help you? They said if don't do the civil first before you file criminal charges, that then they're kind of enmeshed in each other. Okay. Because then the person can wait and say, well, I'm acquitted of these charges. So I don't want to surrender my rights until I'm acquitted of the charges.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Okay.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Or not, or found guilty. Yeah. Angela.

[Rep. Angela Arsenault (Member)]: Hi there. Thanks for being here. What thoughts do you have regarding the proposed shift from the court may to the court shall in terms of the requirements of defendants and the sentencing options?

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: And I just need to state also that I'm speaking for myself as a state attorney for my county. I can't be speaking for the whole SAS. But for me as a state's attorney in Memorial County, I like there being more teeth in it. I think it has a possibility that it could hamper plea negotiations. But I think that the shells, I mean, you're not saying you shall go to jail, you shall pay a $10,000 fine. I think that the shells seem to be doable.

[Rep. Angela Arsenault (Member)]: And in your experience

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: handling these types of cases, what have you seen?

[Rep. Angela Arsenault (Member)]: What are some, I don't know if there's such a thing as a common outcome, are these, I'm on page eight of the bill, the things that we're considering shifting from May to Shell. Do you see the forced orbiter of rights? Do you see the forfeiting rights to future ownership of animals. I love that.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: I honestly love that because I think that's one of the things I've been able to get judges to do that. I don't know how the judiciary will see that, being told to do something. I'm not sure how they'll view that. But I think a registry would be a way to implement that without the shell language.

[Rep. Angela Arsenault (Member)]: Okay. And you have seen these things

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: in practice? I have asked for them in practice.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: And find them.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: And done them.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: Yeah. Yeah. You've gotten the court in the May language now to implement a Yes.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Yeah. It's also for conditions of relays. Yeah. Yeah. You shall not have any unsupervised contact with animals. But not every judge. It depends on the judge. It depends on their feelings. It depends on their wanting to deprive people of stuff before they're convicted. So I love that.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Have you had a court deny having that as a consequence?

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: I haven't yet. I have had a judge deny me. We had a case with a pig. You might have seen it in the news being dragged by an ATV for a life, partially alive. And because it was a lot of stuff, there are different rules. So I had asked a vet come and inspect all of the other pigs and make sure that they are healthy and take account of them to see what's happening to them. The court would not allow me to have him have unsupervised access to them. I had asked for only supervised access. Like, there has to be someone else present because there's been the scuttlebutt in the community that he'd been torturing these pigs, the other ones. But I couldn't because it was livestock and it wasn't a cat or a dog, it wasn't a pet. And I haven't had that situation with cats or dogs, just with pigs. There's definitely a different standard there.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Okay. Does the

[Unidentified Committee Member]: registry be sort of violating a feeling expungement rule?

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: We don't have those anymore.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Just have

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: feeling. Don't mean, that's

[Unidentified Committee Member]: a great question. What's that registry?

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Something we'd have to look at. Something to think about.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: I think it's I mean, I'm not saying it should be interminable. It shouldn't be forever. But I think there should be a certain time, at

[Rep. Angela Arsenault (Member)]: least while you're on probation.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: So at least while you're Maybe that would be a way to You

[Unidentified Committee Member]: would have the ability to have oversight too if they're on probation. True.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Yeah, you would. So they're already I mean, for me, what the problem is people who haven't gone through the system, that are people who've gone through the system and ended the system. And there's no way to keep track. I mean, what do we do for a home improvement for all? How long are they on the registry?

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Don't remember.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: So I'm thinking maybe we can do it. If that's okay for them, I want to see why it wouldn't be okay for an animal abuser.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Barbara, I need

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson (Member)]: So I've got two questions for you. One is you mentioned the person did jail time and got treatment or education. I can't remember.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: She was required to get treatment from the judge. Has she yet? No.

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson (Member)]: I just wondered where and how she accessed treatment for this subject.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: That's a great question. She hasn't yet. Okay.

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson (Member)]: So the other question is, it seems important in addition to owning an animal is not having access to the animal through their work, which came up in testimony this morning. Do you interpret the current law as they wouldn't be able to work as a pet groomer or a Gosh,

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: that's a great question. I don't know. Have come up on that? Do they think yes and no?

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson (Member)]: Are there both questions? It just came up this morning, and I think it says something about care for an animal in the current statute. But it seems like you'd want to be Because let's say I forget the dog's name. A trooper. Trooper's owner couldn't have a dog anymore, but she decided to go work at play dog play. And so then she has limited access.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: I wouldn't want her to have any unsupervised access to an animal. Have and I'm not gonna open a can of worms here, I have a childcare provider who she wants to do an in home childcare. And she has been she's been charged with cruelty to a child. I'm like, you know? Right. And it's more secret. It's hidden. Right. Yeah. And she just asked for permission to take care of some children for babysitting. Like, no. And I know animals are like a hybrid between property. But they're living things and they suffer. So I wouldn't want her to have that without someone else present.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: Sorry. Very helpful to have a practitioner. And it sounds like you've done a lot of these. So Unfortunately. Yeah. So we heard some testimony about one of the currently May penalties that can be ordered by the judge around the animal cruelty prevention programming and whether there is that kind of programming available. Have you gotten that ordered as part of a sentencing? And are you familiar? Are there ones that you have access to?

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: I think that's a great question. It was ordered. I do not know.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Oh, and you missed it.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: The one you're talking about, that was oh, this Okay. And then that kind of lines up my other question is, are you having them on probation that lines up with the length of time that they are not allowed to possess an animal so that there is some sort of enforcement mechanism?

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Yes, that's what the judge is doing. Yes, and that's what I've been asking for.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Okay.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Yeah. I mean, there's something that I would like the sex offense registry, I think, should be prohibited for life. But that's a different conversation.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: I just asked because there was a question about, so we do this ban. How are we checking in to determine whether they are having a most bigger obligation? That's a check.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Exactly. That would be a check and balance. But I think my concern is who are slipping through the cracks. And we don't have a mandatory reporting right now. We have a mandatory reporting for child abuse. We don't have a mandatory reporting. DCF workers have actually said to me, they saw this dog in her house. And because they were there for DCF, they were like, We can't say anything because this is supposed to be confidential. And I was like, Yes, you can. That's crazy. Yeah. And I think that there's some people are concerned about what are they allowed to do. If there's no mandatory reporting, if you see an animal being abused or neglected, you know, maybe that's another avenue. I don't know. I mean, I don't like having the government going into every single person's home. I see the balance there and the privacy rights, but I also see if you're there anyway and you see an animal that's suffering that I think you should feel that you can report that.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Okay, so you had another

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: So the other story was so fun. Everyone needs to hear these stories, but they're important. I mean, had a farm in one of our towns and we were getting all these complaints from the neighbor about animals limping and being in horrible conditions. And so we orchestrated in one afternoon, we orchestrated an emergency seizure. It required us gathering four different horse trailers, about 10 to 20 different volunteers, law enforcement, an animal warden, and a vet within hours to try to make this happen. So that's step one. Step two is what do you do with all these animals once you have them transported? Where did they stay? So we had a horse that had a wire embedded in her just above her hoop and her ankle and had been like that for over a week. And it was almost going to have to be amputated. We had pigs that were feces up to here and they had babies. We had no clean drinking water for any of the animals. It was literally sludge. This the area. This is how these animals are being handled. We had a horse that was skin and bones. So this is a large scale rescue operation. The problem with that is we were doing I was begging people. I'm like, please, please come. And they did. And out of the goodness of their hearts, they were able to come at the last second to rescue these animals. There's a vet who's donating her care. It's just not going to fly. That's just like a piecemeal operation that you can't do more than once without wearing out all the goodwill of all these wonderful people and all these wonderful vets and professionals who are doing this. So as always, is the second part. I have met with some of our local towns in Memorial County. We've talked with the select boards about how to better coordinate, cause towns need funding. Towns don't have the funding to house these animals. They had to euthanize a dog because they couldn't take care of it anymore. They didn't have any funding. So how we do a coordinated funding and a funding source so that we have this all set up? We have a triage center, maybe in Southern Vermont where we've had those horse cases and the sheep cases. We have a triage center. We have a state licensed veterinarian who is able to come out. How do we fund it? Maybe we fund it through like we have a conservation license plate. Maybe we get a license plate that we can offer people that they can buy. There's a complete there's a funding source that every year you get dedicated funding. And I know funding is really tight this year. And I know that really hard choices have to be made, whether people are going have housing, are they

[Rep. Angela Arsenault (Member)]: going to have care, they

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: can have food. So if there's a way that we can get dedicated funding without reaching deeper into people's pockets, that would be a way that we could also be more organized and more efficient in how we're handling these situations. Just a thought. That's my second story. All those animals, one had to be euthanized, the horse had to be euthanized, the skin and bones one, all the other animals got to be independent. Even the goldfish that were in some of the water containers, they got rescued as well. So that's the other Without Lisa's help, I could never have orchestrated it. She had amazing ideas and amazingly because she has so much experience with this. So that's the other thing is if can figure out some dedicated funding, I'm happy to help with that however I can. I've been asking defendants if they want to make donations. I'm like, oh, Lauren, you're fine if you just want to make a donation to an animal shelter or to the food bank or something. But that's not you can't. That's not the way to do it for the long term. And it's helpful, but

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: So I assume that that particular farm or that place where there was that rescue, that that individual wasn't charged with the price of cost of They could never pay. Or they just wouldn't be able to pay.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: They had an electrical wire running to their little shack. She's pregnant with her second child. They had five dogs inside the house. It was kind of a hoarding situation. The vet, said, I could never afford all these animals. I could never afford to take care of these animals. These people were living in poverty. So that's one of those things like, is it purposeful cruelty or is it not knowing? You know, there are different levels. Absolutely. But bottom line is we had to say to them, you need to get your dogs neutered and spayed because guess what's going to happen? You have to have care for them. You have to get them rabies shots. You have to do this basic level of care. And if you can't, then you cannot have these animals. So that's the second story.

[Rep. Angela Arsenault (Member)]: So that's a great example to help me and hopefully us understand a little better how you make parking decisions. And because we are aware in everything we do and hopefully, and certainly in this bill, it has come up a number of times that we don't want to be penalizing property. Right. So in that example, how does that what did you end up charging, if anything?

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Ended up not charging because they surrendered all their animals to us. We let them keep a couple of turkeys and a couple of chickens, but everything else they surrendered to us. We thought that was more of an educational thing. Now, if it happens again, then we will charge them. But we ended up just taking their animals, educating them on what is required for good care. Because they didn't even understand. They didn't even understand why we're taking their animals. This is a horse with down to the bone cut, and they weren't quite understanding it. And some of their animals, you could tell they really love them, like their dogs, they were just loving them. They weren't whipping them, they were not feeding them. They just were overwhelmed. Charging decisions are hard. Yeah.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Okay. Yeah. We talked about the hoarding issue. We've talked about poverty and all this stuff. One thing that we haven't talked about, and I'm really reluctant to say this, but I really want to know, is there a part of this that that these these dogs or these animals are like a what do call? Not a service animal. A

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Support with a

[Unidentified Committee Member]: promotion. Is possible like it's in a mental part of the equation where it's support animals? Like, what I don't even know how to make sense of it, but you know what I'm saying?

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Yeah. I mean, this dog was a support animal. She was supposed to be a support animal. He was supposed to be a support animal for her. The problem is a lot of these dogs, seeing eye dogs, they're trained to be completely docile and obey everything. And so that makes them even more vulnerable. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely a complex issue. This woman was involved with DCF. She had four of her children taken away from her. So, yeah, is there more there's a mental health element? Absolutely. I think with hoarding, I think Lisa would agree with that, that there's a mental health element to that as well. Yeah, which is It definitely complicates it. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. It doesn't

[Rep. Angela Arsenault (Member)]: Right, mean that and we shouldn't for that reason, I mean, it brings up the question again for me about the changing from May to shall. And are we do we run the risk of, you know, enforcing imposing these penalties on folks who you want to prosecute, but not necessarily You know what I mean? It just takes so much flexibility out of the system and the ability to really take things on a case by case basis. And I worry about that. I hear also the argument for

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: I agree with you. I don't think there's a clear cut answer to that at all. I think either way is gonna have pluses and minuses. Because you know there's always gonna be that one case that stands out. So is there a way to fight a middle ground? And you don't want to take someone's livelihood away from them if it's just an issue of educating them. If it's an issue of cruelty, that's different.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: Just a general question, because we have the hood open on this statute. Is there anything we talked about penalties, and we've talked about forfeiture. You haven't really talked about the actual elements and definitions.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: The sexual assault?

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: Not just sexual assault, but actually just because we're looking at the statue in its entirety here. Is there anything in your practice where you're running into issues with how this language is defined or things that you wish were structured better that we could try to address while we're working on this.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Oh gosh, wow, Lisa's huge. We just opened No, up don't everything. Mean, maybe Lisa might know more with that. I haven't. I mean, I've been able to use the aggravated cruelty on his case because we deemed her neglect of him equal to torture. So the omission where there's a duty to act. So I've been able to cover it that way with my judge. I just charged 27 counts of animal cruelty felony for a man who abandoned 27 animals and they all died. But they died. So I have corpses. So I can do it under the kills, but it's pure neglect. You just abandon them. So I think that that's been okay. I just would like harsher penalties for some of this stuff. But that's really to be up to the judge.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: I just wanted to make sure if there was something that we heard

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: I I think the sexual conduct part, I don't think you need to have it in the presence of a child to make it a felony. I would make it a felony, period. We already have a statute that enhances a crime if it's done in the presence of the child. So that way, you don't even need a child to testify. You don't need a child to be present. You've got the felony. And then if the judge wants to enhance it, the prosecutor can put that on there because I do that with sentencing. If a crime was committed in the presence of a child Any crime? That's a great question. I think most crimes, yeah, they're committed in the presence of a child, there's a sentencing enhancement that already exists. I do not know the number. So I'm terrible at numbers. But I can look it up for you when I get home. And I use that all the time. It's already there. Like, you don't even have to create it. And then you don't have to worry about a kid having to testify. You don't have to worry about putting that element. You already have the felonies. It's a sexual act on an animal, which is horrific. Right? So just make it a felony. Don't you don't need the kid. Just thought we make it easier.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: You just had a person that that abandoned his animals and let them die. How many?

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: 27 that we could count.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: What was the reason?

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Oh, he just decided to to leave for three weeks.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: And you know who it is? You found Yeah.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Impressive. Impressive.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Impressive. What happened?

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Nothing yet. We're still in the deposition stage. There's a video that I haven't watched yet because I'm dreading it.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: And probably you can't give a reason his reason why he did it or

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: He was in charge of the animals. He owned the animals. They were farmyard animals, rabbits, goats, pigs, donkeys, I think, all different kinds of it. Maybe not donkeys. And he just left just left him in the winter just for three weeks. They were eating each other, trying to survive. Yeah. Sorry. I don't wanna put all these nightmares in your head, but, like, this is the reality. And you know? And our judge isn't going to give him 27. I mean, if I I'll charge 27 counts. I keep 27 counts because that's how many animals died. But in reality, she's going to make those or he's going make all those concurrent. Whoever the judge is, he or she, they're going to be concurrent. Right? They're not gonna be consecutive. So it doesn't matter how many counts that I do. But I feel like every animal should have a felony. Right? It matters to each animal that had to suffer and die. But in terms of punishment, it's just gonna make the judge angry at me because I've got 27 counts they have to go through. Right?

[Rep. Ian Goodnow (Member)]: Matters to me.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Matters to me. Thank you. Yeah. And it matters to me. You know? And the defense attorneys are like, this is ridiculous. What are you doing? You know? But each life suffers, so that that matters.

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson (Member)]: So do you have a sense from your colleagues in other counties that it's that they're dealing with it as much as you are?

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: I think in some of the counties they are. Yeah, I think different state's attorneys have different views on animal cruelty. Some are not prosecuting where I would prosecute in a heartbeat. Others are prosecuting very fiercely. To me, whenever you have an innocent, be it a child or an elderly person who is vulnerable or an animal, to me, those should be the toughest crimes. And those are the ones we need to prosecute the most because they're helpless. They're completely helpless. So for me, those weren't the toughest prosecution, but that's just my feeling. I know Erica down south, she is a huge, huge advocate. She's a tough prosecutor, and I know that she would do anything she can to make the laws stronger. Yeah. So and this is something I never wanted. I remember when I was a prosecutor in Philadelphia twenty five years ago, I was like, I do not wanna prosecute those because I can't handle them. But you have to. Right? You have to see it. You have to go through it in order to make it better. You can't just do this. So and I'm so lucky because my county, Richland County, like the people are so vocal. They're very vocal about they really, really want a registry. I mean, they really want an animal registry. The doctors want an animal registry. The veterinarians want an animal registry. It is, you know. Yeah. So and we've got a lot of support there. We just need money, of course, like everyone does. Yeah. I know. Right? She'd tell her Swift to come and give a concert. Like, if she could give a benefit concert, we'd be set

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson (Member)]: for years. We could get fish or

[Rep. Angela Arsenault (Member)]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Literally. Do you are you aware of we we had a long conversation this afternoon about this the criminal or I'm sorry, the civil ticket in lieu of a criminal citation. Or is that

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: I honestly don't know anything about that. Okay. I know it's in the realm of hunting. And, like, hunting, you know, in such a wildlife, I do not know what an animal holds. Okay. Haven't So

[Rep. Angela Arsenault (Member)]: something that you've encountered and seen, like, oh, this person has four tickets over

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: a period of time. No. I haven't. Do I have any comments, maybe? Maybe Steve.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: It's okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's in the schedule of fines. There are a number of Okay. Violations. It's in title 13, which I thought was it's weird. I didn't realize there were so many civil violations in different chapters or titles, then, you know, chapters, but so there's all those. And I I was thinking maybe instead of just having singular violations, if you have it a violation like you would a civil BLS and then graduating That makes sense. And that would create a record.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Yeah. That would be fantastic.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I don't know. That's just Yeah.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: I love that as well. I haven't dealt with it yet, but that's a great idea. Because then you're not just getting

[Unidentified Committee Member]: criminal after two or three violations and continue to graduate.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Yeah. It's a great idea. Anything that gives us more tools is wonderful. Anybody else?

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Do you have the questions?

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: You just gotta take a good picture. We wanna end this with a happy story, because otherwise it's just so depressing.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: so much for taking this time. Know you have such a long day and you have so many people that just want to talk, and I really appreciate it. I'm just gonna need the time.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Thank you. Thank you very much for the chat.

[Alyona Gerhard, Lamoille County State's Attorney]: Oh, it's my pleasure. I love it. I'm old school, so I like being in person.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Yes, we like that. We're adjourned until nine