Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: House Judiciary Committee and Happy New Year. We are on our first day of the twenty twenty six biennial session of the biennial. Is it the biennial session? Is that right? Mhmm. I have to ask Michael Cherniv to confirm that. But I'm pretty sure it's the January 6. And we're first going to welcome back everybody, including our new legislative council. And then I will talk a little bit about what I perceive some of the things that we're gonna do this session. A lot of space that's still not filled yet, but at least the first few weeks, kind of give folks a heads up. So with that, do you want to join us down here? At the top of the table so everybody can see you guys really Or is that on the bench there or something? From the bench? The

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: welcome, 51. So for the record, Michelle Childs, Office of Legislative Council. I'm joined here by my usual co pilot, Eric. And we have a new council that's joined the judiciary team, Hillary Chudder Ames. And I'll let Hillary introduce herself. I don't know, do you want her to take the witness chair so you can quiz her

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson]: all about who she is.

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Her background, very interesting. Will say she's a native Vermonter who has returned after going out and exploring the world and having amazing experiences with PeetScore and Washington DC in Chicago, practicing law, and now she's ready to be back in performance and we're lucky to snatch her.

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson]: Yay. I love those stories. Yes.

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And I will say, I promise, this is the last time I'm going say it. Laurie, there's a page here.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: And you were still here then. Were here. We here.

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And she was a page.

[Eric FitzPatrick (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: But there was together like this was 2,005.

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Wow!

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson]: Fewer pages than two.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: So we're lucky you guys have been here so long and we're lucky to have

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: She already is a fabulous addition and she's going to be, so she'll be doing the third portfolio, but it's going to be a very gradual onboarding for her. But you'll see her in committee kind of listening in on those specifically ones that are in that portfolio. Eric and I have generally divvied up that third portfolio and he's taken some things off that, and I have as well. And we're going to just start bringing Hillary into the topics. She's going to get up to speed pretty quick. And so I expect at some point in the session, she'll be staffing some of these issues independently of us. But for right now, it'll just be Eric and I who are writing all the amendments and doing the bills and testifying. But we're going to falter in pretty darn quickly. Sounds very nice. So we'll introduce ourselves as well.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: LaLonde, we met briefly earlier, South Burlington representative. This is my twelfth year, all the years I've been on this committee and this is my fourth year chairing the committee. And some of these paintings are mine. That's what I do when I'm

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: not You're already admiring and complimenting Oh,

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: this one's our Anna Line Vulcan campus. And just by way back on really quickly, I was at the Department of Justice in DC. Lived in American University Park and then Chevy Chase and worked in the environment division. And then we moved up here in 2007, mainly for my kids. My youngest was just starting kindergarten, my oldest was starting third grade, and I became the primary stay at home parent. And eventually when they were in high school, didn't need me anymore. I needed to actually find a job, and this is where I ended up. Anyway, it's with you Barbara. Okay, hi,

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson]: I'm Barbara Rachelson, I'm the state rep from Burlington. I have been on house judiciary. Martin and I started on house judiciary at the same time, but I did a stint on house ed before that. I'm a social worker, but not a clinical social worker. So my degree is in policy, and I have worked in social work administration and policy in different capacities, and I recently became a grandmother. Yeah. Jesus Christ.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: I'm trying to go with Tom first. Yeah, we're gonna have the results come from. Oh, okay.

[Rep. Thomas Burditt (Vice Chair)]: Hi. First off, you're working with two of

[Rep. Thomas Burditt (Vice Chair)]: the best lawyers in the building.

[Rep. Thomas Burditt (Vice Chair)]: We've working together well, been working with Michelle for going on sixteen years now. Because you used to

[Rep. Thomas Burditt (Vice Chair)]: be in human services when I started up there. So my first four years, well first off my name is Thomas Burditt and a rep from West Rutland, I represent West Rutland, Clarendon, Wallingford, and Rutland Town.

[Rep. Thomas Burditt (Vice Chair)]: Coming into my sixteenth year in the building, my first four years were in human services and this is my twelfth year in here. Yeah, I'm not a lawyer but I tell people I play one in Montpelier in the wintertime being on the judiciary committee. I have two children, five grandsons. Unfortunately, they don't live around here so I

[Rep. Thomas Burditt (Vice Chair)]: do a little traveling during the year.

[Rep. Thomas Burditt (Vice Chair)]: But that's it in a nutshell, I guess.

[Rep. Kenneth Goslant (Clerk)]: I'm Kenny, I was thrown in this room against my will eight years ago now. I'm in therapy. What town are you where where are you from in Vermont?

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson]: We're up in

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: South Hero.

[Rep. Kenneth Goslant (Clerk)]: South Hero? Nice place. Small business owner, former Slipboard member for ten years, coach for close to thirty five years, something else I've done. But anyway, I'm just I'm just a guy. Kenny brings the joy to the committee.

[Rep. Thomas Oliver]: He's quite a guy. Hi,

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson]: I'm so happy to meet you. Thank you for doing this job. My name is Angela Arsenault, I'm a representative from Williston. I really admire the work that your colleagues do and really appreciate it. Obviously, we can't do what we do without them.

[Rep. Angela Arsenault]: And I'm just And I recognize the burden that we place on all of you. And it is our job to come up with ideas, but unfortunately, you have to help us put them on paper. And I know that it's really demanding, and the schedule can be quite something. And I just wanna start off by thanking you as we get started because it requires a lot of dedication. I really appreciate Eric and Michelle for their dedication. And preemptively, you for yours. This is my fourth year, so end of my second term, or start at the end of my second term. And I've served all of those years on this committee. I went to law school for one semester and then decided I did not in any way want to be a lawyer.

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Could Where did you go?

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: I didn't know that.

[Rep. Angela Arsenault]: Yeah, went to Boston College. Had always wanted to go to law school, like since I was 13, and then, know, did really well on the LSAT when I got into law school, I was like, why is everyone here so mean? Was supposed to be like the kinder, gentler law school.

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I was like, I

[Rep. Angela Arsenault]: don't want to be this kind of person. But I think in some way, since then, I've been trying

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: to find

[Rep. Angela Arsenault]: my relationship with the law because I do find it so fascinating. That sort of chart of what led me, I think, to restorative justice, since I'm a volunteer at the Wilson Community Justice Center, and really enjoy the work that we've done on standard restorative justice in Vermont. Think, I've strong in this committee, I've worked mainly on some of our domestic and sexual violence bills, as well as our gun violence prevention bills, and have, in the last couple of years, taken a keen interest in our juvenile justice work. I'm a journalist, training and trade. I was a journalist, a freelance journalist for twenty years. I like to write.

[Eric FitzPatrick (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Let's see. Nice to meet you.

[Rep. Karen Dolan]: Hi, welcome. I'm Karen Dolan, a representative from Esopanunction, and this is my sixth year. I started off on house corrections and institutions, and then made the switch over here. It's been great. I was also born in Vermont, grew up in the Northeast Kingdom.

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, went to junior high. Yeah, went out there?

[Rep. Karen Dolan]: Yeah, that's awesome. And then went to UVM and stayed in Chittenden County ever since. Yeah, two high school kids. So when I'm not here, I work at the Essex Community Justice Center. And as Angela shared, we've done some work in expanding restorative justice across the state. And part of that has been consolidating some of the stuff in Chittenden County, but I actually won't be working there as of July. If anybody has

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: job ideas, I'll support what we did, and I might be needing a job.

[Rep. Karen Dolan]: Welcome. Happy and happy and warm.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: You're going be looking for

[Rep. Thomas Burditt (Vice Chair)]: a job, Martin considers this his job.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: It's true, they're speaking about not being most of them.

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson]: I was going to say, I am also the primary caregiver in my household right now and still doing this job. So, you know, that's maybe the difference between men and women, but we can get to that.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: If I agree lawyers, there's two of you that are women out there that are lawyers. I'm just saying, this suits the room you're in. But I'm Mr. Negative.

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Joy, you're Mr. Jones.

[Rep. Thomas Oliver]: Yeah, I'm joyful. Are we going back and forth? No. I'm Thomas Oliver, represent

[Rep. Thomas Oliver]: Sheldon in Swanton. I live in Sheldon with my wife, two kids, one is just about finished college, other one's in the construction field. Long time law enforcement officer, been in law enforcement since about '86, and I still do that when I'm not here. Retired once. I'm very interested in the shooting sports, I also work in pyrotechnics.

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson]: I'm Alicia Malay, I represent Pittsburgh and Proctor, and this is just my second year here. Have three sons, one of whom is a favorite now,

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: which is exciting. I'm excited about it.

[Rep. Alicia Malay]: Are they just in this room?

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, he was.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow]: My gosh. Was that why he was asking you? Yeah. Was gonna say. So,

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson]: yeah, nice to meet you.

[Rep. Ian Goodnow]: I'm Ian Goodnow. I'm a rep for Windham District 9, which is downtown Brattleboro. This is my first term, so my second session. So I'm a baby legislator. Out of this work, I'm a baby deputy state attorney. I've been doing that for five months, and then on top of that, I'm basically a baby lawyer. I've only been an attorney since 2022. That's kind of what I do outside of this, and I really appreciate the work that you're going to do for this committee. I think it's incredible how much you're going to do.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Thank you for doing it. Really appreciate it. Zachary Harvey, a representative for Castleton, also a freshman legislator. Outside of this world, right now I'm doing some consulting work for a family office out of New York City, And that's pretty much it, but excited to work with you. Welcome.

[Chad (Committee Assistant)]: Thanks, Neil. Hi, I'm the committee assistant here. I was the committee assistant last year.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Chad (Committee Assistant)]: I have been bouncing around the building for like four ish years now. I interned before that here for

[Rep. Thomas Oliver]: a while in

[Chad (Committee Assistant)]: directions. So I loved the State House. I used to work at the judiciary for, like, six months, but I got the I got the call back to arms here, and I So could not say I'm back, and I'm excited to

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: be looking forward to working again.

[Hillary Chudder Ames (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I was gonna say, do you want to tell that since everybody's given them a little were given a little Why, yeah, why don't you do that? I almost didn't finish well. That's great. Born in Burlington, driving South Hero. Went to Burlington for high school and then middle grade for college. So stayed around for a while. But at the time, I wasn't sure what the job options here looked like. I did not know that legislative council existed. And so I served in the Peace Corps in Togo, in West Africa, for a couple of years.

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson]: And then I headed to Chicago for law school

[Hillary Chudder Ames (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: in Northwestern. Worked there in a civil rights ballot clinic, did a lot of work with incarcerated individuals' rights, and then worked on some policing and law enforcement issues in Chicago for a couple of years after graduating. I worked in New York for a federal district court judge, and then spent a year at a law firm, learning that I did not like litigating, hence being excited to do something a little different. Clerked for a appellate court in DC and worked at a law firm for a little bit longer, And then really excited to move back to Vermont. I still have family in South Europe with my parents still there. Family in Shelburne, Burlington and Putney. And I am staying with my brother and his partner in Randolph Center, which is a lovely place I had spent no time in previously. I'm a huge fan.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: That's where

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson]: I lived for high school. I moved out to Randolph Center.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Great. I lived

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson]: in Randolph Center. Yeah. Next to boys.

[Hillary Chudder Ames (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. I'm a little bit I'm across the street down just a little bit.

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson]: That's so funny. I lived in the house that representative Cooper now owns. Small world.

[Hillary Chudder Ames (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So really looking forward to working

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: with all of you. And

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: just so you know, like she her last day was at for the first. Was December 31. Wow. And she showed up for work yesterday. Wow. Because she knew we were, you know, we're kind of like, what's your timing? And we're like, we'll take you as soon as we can Right? Get

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson]: Thinking maybe it would

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: be February, but she's starting off strong. And I was like, I'll be there on the first day. Here she is, you'll be seeing

[Rep. Ian Goodnow]: I had one question. With Hillary joining in, are the portfolios going to change at all, or is it going to be basically

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I think what we're going to do is So back in the day, you know, it used to be just us, and we always had a law clerk who would work, like a nine month schedule. And then for a little while, like when my kids were small, I took summers off and started to work the law clerk schedule, and we hired Brynn on to be our third judiciary team member. And so that's kind of like how we kind of divvied up our portfolios at the time and assigned that. And so it's pretty much stayed the same. It changes a little bit and we've definitely got a lot of overlap. I think what we're going to be doing, what we did when Ben came after Brynn left and Ben came on, is we just kind of gradually gave him things from that portfolio. And it was going to be like, this year was going be the year that he finally took the whole portfolio. But I think it's going to work a lot faster with Hillary. I think, you know, what we're trying to do is identify the issues that Eric and I haven't worked on in a number of years that we're, you know, not the freshest on. Right. Try to get her kind of onto those issues first because we're not any great prize on those issues for you. Then we'll just see how that goes. So you can always reach out to me about who's doing what on everything, but for right now, everything's coming through us, and then we're just going to be folding her into a variety of things depending on what's moving and where it's moving and schedules.

[Eric FitzPatrick (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: On that note, just to expand a little bit, it's a similar thing that I said to Senator Chittenden this morning. So we'll probably be in here, in fact, we'll definitely be in here, walking you through bills that we didn't initially draft and have probably very little experience in. So I'm sure everyone is familiar with our answers sometimes, which is, hey, excellent question. Let me look into that and get back to you. You may hear that a little more frequently with some of those bills that weren't ours to begin, just so you know. Thanks for patience in that regard. We appreciate that. And we appreciate all the kind remarks from everybody as well. So, very much.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Back at you. I think we are biased, I think

[Eric FitzPatrick (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: we believe we are in the best attorney job in this building.

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It's true.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: We're very fortunate.

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: All fees. We'd sell it part we were selling it far and get it. You know, we're like, you know, there's no reason we're here after all this time.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Right? Still in this job. It's not just this committee either. It's you've got, I think, the best legal job in the state. I mean, just the legislative council, but especially in this committee.

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No, I think we hit all, we checked all the boxes. It was great. When I first started here in the 90s as a law clerk, just asked me, So what portfolio do you want? And I was like, What's that one? It'd be hard to get now. But yeah, we work on a lot of very, very interesting issues. And one of the reasons why I think we are here after all this time is we're continuing to learn new things all the time, which is, you know, really keeps it fresh. Absolutely.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Any other questions for them and then not? See, I'm welcome to stay. In fact, would like you to stay, I'm just gonna kind of go over first few weeks, some of the stuff that at least I understand that we're trying to get to, kind of get folks a little understanding. So this week, and I know you guys know what's going on this weekend already, but it's kind of like a mop up somewhat from last year. Some of the things that wanted to get to but didn't quite get to or didn't quite get across the finish line. And that includes H-twenty eight, the affirmation bill, H-four zero nine, the bail revocation bill, which is we'll learn more about that this afternoon. That's essentially the language that we sent to the Senate in the miscellaneous bill that they took out that I wanna send it back to them again and tell them that, no, we're serious about this language, Senate. And then four ten, which is recidivism, waiting for the collective groan, because every time I brought that up towards the end of last year, there was a groan from at least Tom Oliver and Ian.

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: We're gonna

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: try to work on that a little bit more as well. And then finally age five, which I really was hoping to take up last year, something that Jennifer Pullman really has been pushing for the last couple of years. And actually that is kind of holdover from last biennium. We did some work on, this is a hearsay, underage hearsay exception. And we did some work on, it testifying end of hearsay and there was an inconsistency as far as ages and we wanted to continue to look at that, But we just didn't get to it last year. First, maybe it's fine. May well have been. Yeah, I think it actually was. So that's, I don't know that we're going to vote H5. I mean, that's one that we just really need to take the testimony. I really am hoping to vote out H28 and H409 tomorrow since we've already had lots of testimony on that. And also I see the recidivism one being very quick, but I want to kind of get a path for that. So next week, I'm gonna be gone on Tuesday, but we will get started on the voyeurism and what else do we call that?

[Rep. Barbara Rachelson]: Voyeurism and image based abuse bill.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: Image based abuse bill, sextortion, that isn't introduced yet.

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So just a reminder.

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: But is it already to them?

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, we're

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: just waiting for it.

[Michelle Childs (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, it's in the can for a while. I think it's just waiting for sign off with the sponsors. Just so you guys, it's always a little easier if you actually have the bill assigned to the committee rather than using a draft. Oh yeah. So

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: is it cleared for introduction? Yeah. Can we make sure that it's cleared for introduction? Because then it will get introduced in the next couple of days, would assume. So we'll make sure. And also there's a voter intimidation bill which was introduced today and was sent to government operations. And they get that recommitted to us the next couple of days. And then after that, animal cruelty and then expungement, moving expungement to ceiling in the court diversion. Those are kind of the first four. There's one other thing that we might be moving earlier and I haven't had a chance to really speak with enough folks to see if we're gonna move that earlier. And that's a bill, and I don't think it was introduced today, dealing with use of force addressing and victims' rights, addressing the issue in Putney where a person having a mental health crisis, law enforcement showed up and like self, I don't know exactly what happened, but there's a bill that addressed some of the issues that came up that the victims, I should say, yeah, mean the victims, the family of this individual and some of the things that they face. But I was hoping to see, and this is something I'm gonna try to reach out to the Attorney General's office to seize a report on that incident before I took up that bill. But if I've just recently heard that that might not be coming out by the end of the session, so may wanna take this bill up and consider that. And the reason that I bring that up now is because some of the family members of this individual who was killed are going to be in the state that are from out of state and they're gonna be in the state in the January. So I might move that up earlier. Looking a little further ahead, public safety continues to be really important, but already planning on a hearing the February with the Senate Judiciary Committee on lessons learned and recommendations from the so called accountability court pilot project. And also look at related issues, including one that Tom Oliver and I were talking about earlier related to no shows at arraignments. So that will be kind of the early February work. So that's kind of the game plan. And of course it will all change in the next three days because that's what things work out here at Seams. Questions on any of that? No? So with that we can move on to H409. If we can have a walk through. And I and did we get the updated version you're about to go get?

[Chad (Committee Assistant)]: Yes. I'm sure

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: the price go offline or something.

[Chad (Committee Assistant)]: So I'll put it right down.

[Rep. Thomas Burditt (Vice Chair)]: If you wanna We can

[Rep. Martin LaLonde (Chair)]: go offline for we'll take a five minute break. Okay. Chad, so you can go get the version. There's an